391 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80931b28b8cfdd9c29ca72ab935b482e.jpg 9a5e7366dc6f6b5c6d79f5d82734a803 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1966-09 Title A name given to the resource Young woman on a dock overlooking the Kalamazoo River Description An account of the resource Photograph of a young woman walking on a dock overlooking the Kalamazoo River. She is wearing a light brown jacket with her back turned to the camera and there are boats docked nearby with people standing just ahead of her. In the background, the Mount Baldhead radar tower can be seen from a distance. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Kalamazoo River (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5c35daadc1c84ee6e449c4a09bed06a0.jpg b2d8a2cf63fc3a683effd3e036d7dc3e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1966-09 Title A name given to the resource College students smiling outside Coral Gables Description An account of the resource Photograph of a trio of young adults enjoying each other's company outside Coral Gables in downtown Saugatuck. They appear to be college students as one of them is wearing a WMU sweatshirt and they are surrounding a parked convertible while smiling at the camera. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Summer Automobiles Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8931f3165925e77524791d06b75afa42.jpg db7c8ca5ace28305aa8f50b2588ad5d2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72459a94cdfddf4f9a737deca8dde1c7.jpg 850b87dc9dc65c975ddc43703aa0d4b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0001 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1966-09 Title A name given to the resource College students talking outside Coral Gables Description An account of the resource Photograph of a trio of young adults having a conversation outside Coral Gables in downtown Saugatuck. They appear to be college students as one of them is wearing a WMU sweatshirt and they are surrounding a parked convertible. The handwriting on the back of the photograph is partially illegible, listing "Saugatuck, Colleen James, Dick's friend, Dick Fosdick." Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Summer Automobiles Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92ec703e17d2b1a349d4433c039df49d.mp3 d7d774ff0142f0a4f0c5ebe2b5ea865c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cb25224530b35bf708a1e126e8daf40f.pdf 3612d378096c4775d22155671d4a5a2e PDF Text Text Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 1 David Geen: My name is David Geen and I’m here today with Renee Zita at the old schoolhouse in Douglas Michigan on Wednesday, June 6th 2018. This oral history is being collected as a part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking time, for the time to talk with me today I’m interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of Summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it? Renee Zita: Renee Irene Renaldi Zita. R E N E E I R E N E R E N A L D I Z I T A. DG: Thank you. So, first off is, tell me where you grew up? We’re going to talk about your time here in Saugatuck and Douglass but at first sort of how you got here and where you’re from, and how this all sort of happened. RZ: Sure. Um, I’m initially from the Southside of Chicago, Palace Heights. Grew up there, and um, my mother’s family had a summer cottage on Park Street in Saugatuck. Um, she had one sister, and two brothers and they divided the cottage up through the months of uh, July and August. Therefore, our family usually had two weeks of spending time at the cottage with my grandmother, uh, Grandma Rene, Irene…. DG: …Oh. RZ: …hence my middle name. DG: Uh, what year was it that you first came, or what year was it that? RZ: I probably came the year I was born, I was born in March, 1959 and that summer, I’m sure my mother brought me up there and up here and we spent uh, our couple weeks on the beach. DG: Great! Mhm, how was the beach then, was it the same then as it is now? RZ: [Laughs] Um, no. The beach, as I recall, there was a white, um, box structure that was the Beach House that um, had the best hamburgers that…. DG: …Oh! RZ: …She fried at the beach house and you could rent these big black inner tubes for 25 cents an hour, so that was a treat when we were able to get an inner tube to rent, we would, and it was a treat when we were able to go and get hamburgers at the Beach House, and the nicest lady, Menzie I think her name was, Lois Menzie maybe, um would be the lady and that’s how I met um, Rondy Riteman who would work at the beach house and um, they had the, I can recall the bathrooms were kind of grody but, they had these screen doors that would bang after you’d go out…. DG: Oh, yeah? �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 2 RZ: …of the restroom and uh, often one summer I got to spend, about four or five weeks up here because my mom had her two weeks and she became ill and um, my aunt had to take care of us, um, my sister and me for an extra two or three weeks and that summer um, I would practically walk, I’d climb up our since our cottage was on Park street, I’d walk to the beach because they didn’t get to the beach until late and we liked getting there around noon and so, we’d walk up Mount Baldy and climb down the hill to the beach, or go to the path um, back by Oxbow or the old harbor, or we’d walk up the beach road. DG: Yeah? Everyday? RZ: Practically every day. DG: That’s great. RZ: Got my steps in! DG: Got your steps in then, yeah. RZ: Okay. DG: Oh my gosh. Um, [pause] what was your favorite place to, to come to eat in the summer time? RZ: Um, probably the Beach House, because I love their hamburgers! Um, it was always fun uh, I can recall um, going to the um, the Root Beer Barrel um, and get foot long hotdogs. DG: Okay. RZ: That was always, uh, exciting, or…. DG: …and where was that sitting? RZ: That was on Center Street, probably between Blue Star and Ferry Street. DG: Oh, right there, okay. RZ: Yes…. DG: …Yeah…. RZ: …it’s original…. DG: The original location. RZ: …there’s aerial photos of where it was, so I remember that, and um, our other favorite thing would be to go get ice cream at the drugstore. DG: Okay, the counter in the back? �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 3 RZ: At the counter, and actually I can still recall the counter being in front. DG: Oh. RZ: Before it was put back there. I’m pretty sure it was [phone rings] I’m sorry, I’m pretty sure it was out front, um and then we, my cousins and us would often go there and have water fights and, um, back in the um, back in the um, the room, uh, and just getting ice cream, chocolate, my favorite was the Hudsonville chocolate ice cream with chocolate fudge. DG: Oh my god, that sounds great. RZ: And that was a treat. DG: Yeah? RZ: So.. DG: Did you ever come over to Douglas at all or no? RZ: Um, yes. There was a donut shop in Douglas that I loved going to. DG: Oh! I never heard about this. RZ: It was where Wild Dog is now. DG: Okay. RZ: …and, it, they had the best glazed donuts, so we’d go over there sometimes to get a, donuts in the morning and it would frustrate me when, if you didn’t get there by 9 o’clock he was sold out and I would be like ‘Well why don’t you make more donuts!’ If you know you’re going to be, uh, on the weekends. You know? But anyway, they were, they were very good. So, um, and now my favorite place in the morning is to go to Pumpernickel’s. DG: Oh. RZ: Uh, my mom would always order uh, uh, a box full of uh, different sweet, sweets and Larry would be so funny he’d put um, ants on them sometimes as a, as a tease and uh, a surprise or bugs, or flies, whatever, so. DG: That’s fun. RZ: Yeah, that was always fun. He was, for some of his um, patron customers he would often play little jokes, he had a sense of hu-humor like that, so. �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 4 DG: Oh my gosh, and so, how was the, how did you go from, like coming the for two weeks in the summer until, [pause] longer? [Inaudible] RZ: So, my mother loved it here so much that um, she wanted to, um spend the summer here. DG: Okay. RZ: So she branched off and bought her own place…. DG: …Okay…. RZ: …in 1983 probably as well as one of my other uncles, uh, Connie and Richard Vacco went off and bought their own place down on uh, Lakeshore Drive in Fennville. DG: Okay. RZ: …In the early 80’s um, so then my mom had her place and…. DG: …On Park Street…. RZ: …On Park Street and Perryman…. DG: ..Yep…. RZ: …and she, we spent more time there, but now I was starting a family myself, and um, my then husband John and I loved it so much and we were blessed enough to be able to afford a little home so we branched off and bought our own home…. DG: Oh. RZ: …On Campbell Street, which was Inez Campbell’s home. We bought it from her in 198 [pause] 6, ’87. DG: Okay. RZ: …and had that home for eight years, and came up here and summered all the time…. DG: Oh great…. RZ: …Ourselves, and then uh, from there we, we built a bigger home down on the Kalamazoo River. DG: Yeah. RZ: …and now, my current home, uh is on 98th by Park Street. DG: Back on Park Street. �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 5 RZ: …Back on Park Street, where…. DG: …Where you belong…. RZ: …Where I belong. Where I belong, where my mother’s, unfortunately she passed a couple years ago, and her ashes are now spread, um, at her cottage and at our family cottage. DG: Oh. RZ: …and maybe a little bit at my house around a tree, so…. DG: How nice. RZ: Yes. DG: Yeah. Um, let’s see. Do you have any other special memories of this area that you’d like to talk about for the, for this, uh, interview? RZ: Well, my special memories are spending lots of times with our family and cousins and also my children, um, summering here with me and, um, they’re working. They worked at the beach as lifeguards…. DG: …Oh did they?.. RZ: …and um, they, it would be a lot of fun when we’d sit at the beach, and they would be, um, on rotation, and every, every twenty five or forty minutes they’d get a break and then they’d come sit with us and we’d bring them their hot dogs for lunch…. DG: …Were they, all three life guards?.. RZ: …Jason, Justin, and Jonathon at one time, yes, were all, so that’s how they all got to become good friends with Katie Frisk, or Katie Herber at the time, she was the beach…. DG: …She was a lifeguard…. RZ: … Well, she, she did the gatehouse. DG: Oh. RZ: So she would report to them when, ah, Denny, would, would, was showing up. Say get, get the…. DG: When the boss was coming. RZ: Alert! Alert! The boss is here. DG: Oh my gosh. �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 6 RZ: They’d have their codes, but they’ve all become very good friends. DG: When did the Lifeguards stop on the beach? I remember first coming here and they were still there, but I didn’t know any of them… [Over RZ] were your sons. RZ: ..Probably the, [pause] in the 90’s, late 90’s. DG: I guess. RZ: Yeah. DG: Yeah. RZ: No! They did it all through High School, no, so, they finished high school in, the, maybe the early 2000’s. DG: The lifeguards stopped. RZ: Yes, probably because…. DG: Well, even your youngest was a lifeguard…. RZ: No, Jeffery was not, no, so, he didn’t graduate 8th grade until 2010 or so. DG: [Speaking over RZ] Too young. RZ: Right, so, um, yeah. DG: Well that’s fun. RZ: One of my memories is, getting all dolled up to go dancing at the Old Crow. DG: The Old Crow had dancing. RZ: The Old Crow, oh yeah. There was a line to get into the Old Crow back in…. DG: After the pavilion, of course. RZ: Oh, yeah! Way after. My mother would go to the pavilion, I would go to the Old Crow, and that was probably in the late 70’s that we were old enough to get in there, and some of us weren’t old enough.. DG: [Laughs] RZ: …would get in there too. There were multiple Renee Renaldi’s in there because I was one of the first ones to turn 18, and that was a paper driver’s license. So just brown hair, brown eyes and most of us Italian girls were brown hair, brown eyes. �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 7 DG: So you would get dressed up to the Old Crow. RZ: Oh yeah, not so much to drink but to dance and meet boys. DG: Oh, fun. RZ: Yeah. DG: Yeah. Do you remember any specifically, uh, that you could tell us any of the boys that you, uh…. RZ: No, not from me, but my cousin Irene was madly in love with um, Mariano or some…uh, I forgot his first name. DG: Okay. RZ: She would be um, a good person to interview. DG: Oh, yeah, well that sounds like a story. RZ: Yes! Yes, so we’d always have to wait and um, there was always a bouncer party after the Old Crow would close. DG: Oh. RZ: …And Irene would be asking her dad permission to stay out, and that wouldn’t be until 1 or 2 in the morning. DG: Oh, late. RZ: …and my uncle was not too keen on that. ‘Please, dad can we go to the bouncer party!’. DG: The after hour’s party. RZ: [Laughs] Yeah, so…. DG: Oh my gosh. RZ: Yeah, so. DG: That’s in the Coral Gables, like on the, was it…. RZ: That was on the other building where, where um, what’s the long building? DG: The annex? RZ: The annex, yes. �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 8 DG: It was in there? RZ: The bouncer party, I think it would just be outside the Annex or something. DG: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like the after party. RZ: Yes. DG: Oh, fun. RZ: Yeah, so that was uh, my my, uh the, the guy I had a crush on was Johnny Fox. DG: Johnny Fox? RZ: …and he would, I met him at the beach. DG: Okay. RZ: …and his father was the um, do you know who he is? DG: No. RZ: Oh. He’s pretty reputable in the area, he’s an artist and…. DG: Okay…. RZ: ..he would come down to the beach, he had long blond hair and…. DG: Oh. RZ: …um, he ah, would surf at the beach and I don’t know we met him down there, and um, one day he, we, I don’t know, but I don’t know but I think maybe he might have had a crush on me but we went on the paddle boat together. DG: Oh! Okay. RZ: He kissed me on my cheek, so…. [Both laugh] RZ: That was big, that was probably one of my first kisses. DG: I, I wonder if he’s still around? RZ: He is! He lives up on, up on the hill. �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 9 DG: Oh, okay. RZ: Him and his wife. DG: John Fox. RZ: Yeah. He did the Indian head at, at the school? He’s an artist here in town, and um, yeah! So that’s a memory. DG: That’s great. RZ: Aunt Marie, going to the Dutch Village and you know, going on the rides there and um…. DG: Fun. RZ: Going on the paddle boats, and the and back then it was not the Queen of Saugatuck but it was the Island Queen. . DG: Oh, yeah. RZ: …ran by Mr. Hoffman I believe, Dick Hoffman was his name I think, who ran that. Peewee golf, so those are all special treats when got to go peewee golfing and you know it wasn’t just…. DG: …Where was it, was there a little miniature golf here? RZ: Yeah! It was where um, the park is, um [pause] um [pause] Wicks Park, right there was a peewee golf…. DG: Oh. RZ: …area, yeah. DG: Okay, wow. RZ: So, and that’s where the Island Queen sat, right there, next to the ship and shore. DG: Oh, over there. RZ: On the opposite side. DG: Huh. RZ: Yeah, so. DG: Great. �Renee Zita - Interviewed by David Geen July 23 2018 10 RZ: Picture, I have pictures of that as well. DG: Well that’s neat. [Inaudible] DG: Um [pause] what else can we add, anything? [Pause] In what ways has the area changed over time since you’ve been coming here? RZ: Well, um, I think it’s become much more um, uh, well I guess been, always been a summer resort for people. Lots have changed, the structures, more restaurants, more shopping, I think there’s more people that have retired here. In fact, in our family, there’s my cousin Paula just retired here, my cousin um, [pause] Carla and her husband are now looking…. DG: …Okay…. RZ: with Bill at the homes, to retire here so, um I think it’s become more of a retirement…. DG: …more of a retirement place. RZ: Yes, and it’s just a wonderful resort area, with lots of wonderful people…. DG: …Mhm…. RZ: …and lots of nice shopping, and food. DG: Good! Um, well I think that’s everything that I have right now. Okay? Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-ZitaR-20180606 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Zita, Renee Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-06 Title A name given to the resource Renee Zita (Audio interview and transcript) 2018 Description An account of the resource Renee Zita was born and raised in Chicago. In this interview, she recounts spending several weeks of every summer in the family cottage on Park Street in Saugatuck. As her own family grew, Renee remembers bringing her own children to the family home and ultimately deciding to become a full-time resident of Saugatuck. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Geen, David (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Outdoor recreation Dance halls Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cb825aa570fcafb56f139b01d39d4958.mp3 86fa46c264fde4d2c9e26fda78b2902c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b06125e55896f490abe8b000fdcc5da.pdf cf411fc660b5d2a1d1b86df20f45c2a3 PDF Text Text Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 1 Ken Kutzel: This is Ken Kutzel and I’m here today with um, PG Walter at the old school house in Douglas Michigan uh, June 2nd 2018, this oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today, I’m interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it? Philip Walter: Philip P H I L I P George G E O R G E Walter W A L T E R. KK: Okay, thank you. Uh, PG [pronounced PEEGUH] tell me about where you grew up? PW: Starting in 1946, my family purchased a 2 story commercial residential building on Butler Street in Saugatuck and from then till basically I got married in 1966 that is what I considered my residence. Um, after 1963 or ’64 I was pretty much living in the Lansing area but, again still considered the Butler Street home my home. KK: Okay, good. Uh, tell me some, well, I know your family goes way back. PW: Yes. KK: So, why don’t you tell me a little bit about how far back your family goes here? PW: Well, my mother’s parents moved here, I believe it was in 1888 and was, were one of the first families in Fishtown and I have given the Historical Society a copy of a letter that my, who would be my grandfather sent back to his parents in York Pennsylvania about the difficulties in fishing in the winter and things like that. Then in, I think 1906, when the new piers were put in, Fishtown basically was deserted then and the families, I don’t know where they all scattered to but the Sewers family basically all moved onto Lake Street in Saugatuck, um, several of the old buildings in Fishtown were put on rafts or barges and taken down to the summer school of painting, Oxbow and used there for various things and [pause] that takes care of pretty much the Fishtown era. Um, [coughs] my grandparents had a house on Lake Street, uh, as you’re going out of town, right on the corner it would’ve been on the right hand side. My mother’s brother Frank lived in the large white house, I’ll call it for lack of a better word, the awning house, um, for as long as can remember. His brother, twin brother, Rube lived on the West side of Lake street about 5 or 6 houses up towards town in the house that has kind of a little peaked entrance to which the historical commission gave permission to basically saw the back end of the house off and add a huge house to it. Um, in 1946 my mother and father bought, from my Uncle Rube the aforementioned commercial residential building downtown at 237 Butler Street and he at that time, my father, started a clothing store in the front of the building and my mother started her one chair beauty shop in the back of the building. We lived upstairs, in the back, in a large apartment and my mother’s uh, old maid sister Florence Sewers, called Aunts Toots by everybody lived in the one bedroom apartment in the front end of the building upstairs and again, that was occupied until eventually my family sold the building to Stub and Sue Lewis of East of the Sun in 1968. KK: Okay, and the name of which building is that? Is that? Well, yeah, sure? PW: It’s Sinbad now. KK: Yeah. Okay, thank you. Um, what are some of your most vivid memories from being a kid? And I know you said you went to school here in the Old Schoolhouse. �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 2 PW: Yeah, I was in the Old Schoolhouse and um, was confused the morning that family did not, my mother didn’t wake me up to get ready to go to school and was told that the school had burned down. I was in 2nd grade at that time and we finished 2nd grade in the now apartment condominium building at the top of the hill at the four-way stop in Saugatuck. We finished 2nd grade there, I think there was another class in that building also. [Coughs] We did 3rd grade in the basement of the Congregational Church and then by 4th grade, the new school built on the site of the old school was ready for occupancy and that’s where I started the rest of my school term. Um. [00:5:31] KK: So that’s right, you actually went to school in Saugatuck. PW: Yes. KK: Not here in Douglas. PW: Yes. KK: Okay, uh, just to clarify that. Um, and you know is there anything more you can tell me about your family or your family history or have you pretty much covered it? PW: Well, I pretty much covered it, the Sewers’ is all stayed, the Sewers’ and their extended Sewers family all stayed in commercial fisherman, fishing until essentially the commercial fishing industry just collapsed and the, the Sewers twins, who were my mother’s brothers they of course were very elderly at that time, but uh, the son Bud and the son of George Sewer, Jim Sewers he and his brother Jack commercially fished here for quite a while so, essentially the whole Sewers family. Um, at least the sewers side of it was all in commercial fishing. KK: Okay, can you share any particular memories about living here, things or moments that are especially memorable for you? Uh, I know you witnessed the pavilion burning. PW: Yeah. Yeah. KK: You’re in the video. PW: Yep. Yeah. That, that is probably the most memorable event of all. [Laughs] But, my father was a volunteer fireman and so I remember when Leland Lodge burned, I remembered when the building next to Kilwins burned and I remember when Holiday Hill burned, and I remembered when the Mount Baldhead Hotel burned and Gary Depenhorse and I lost a job when that happened for a while because we were uh, back then, and I always get a laugh when I see the ads for the longest serving chain ferry in Michigan we were actually rowing square end wood scaus across to take people back and forth across the river for I think it was either 15 or 20 cents, I forget what the price was. But uh, so I guess the fires are, are more than anything else, the rest of it was just a kid growing up. We, we all spent all of our summers on the river, either in boats we built or boats we cobbled together or with our little two horse sea kings you know, we were off to cruise the world as far as we were concerned. But, um, I would say definitely the fires, and then the crowds in the summer, of course, too were quite an event because I would sit upstairs in the window of my Aunt Toots apartment in one of the windows over Butler Street and of course watch the surge of people going back and forth and of course the Police breaking things �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 3 up and everything. So I really had a window on the world in downtown Saugatuck and it was quite interesting. KK: Yeah, that’s interesting, um, how long was the season because I know you know when we think about it now, uh, people start coming here real early in the spring and stay quite late. How long was the, the tourist season here? PW: My father always used to say, because being the dry cleaner he would see the people from Chicago coming up and what would happen most of the time is the, the husbands of the family were still wearing suits to work and they’d bring their suits up and he’d dry clean then and they’d pick them up the next time they were back. But he always said the Fourth of July really was the start of the summer and then literally the day after Labor Day, uh, the city set up tables um, right down the middle of Butler Street between Maplewood and at that time, Koning Hardware and there was a town potluck. The day after Labor Day. KK: Yeah, and that was it? PW: Yep. That was it. There was just nobody in town. KK: Yeah but, the downtown was still, was kind of active because it wasn’t so touristy, wasn’t it at the time, or? PW: Well it was active only as a function of the people who lived in town. It wasn’t that there was people from out of town. KK: Right. PW: Coming in so. KK: Okay, um, [pause] how aware uh, how aware were you of the Art’s School meaning Oxbow and what went on there? Living in town? PW: I was aware of it because my mother and friends of hers when they were in late high school posed a lot of times for them, au natural in some cases which of course raised a lot of eyebrows of people in town and um, I actually had a couple of postcards once but somewhere they disappeared. They had a, they had an old Model T truck or something, not like Frank Wicks had but a similar thing and the girls had done a lot of posing on it that like, you know, laying across a fender or something like that and one of these postcards, which I think did not get a lot of circulation was two girls including my mother in the nude on that, so. Uh, that would’ve been oh, in the [pause] well let’s see probably in the 30’s, ‘20s and ‘30s. [00:10:29] KK: Yeah, okay. PW: Just guessing, and that was my only real knowledge of it except [laughs] they had a fire in the dunes over there one time, and of course the Saugatuck Volunteer Fire Department responded to it and, Oxbow was so grateful they said that they would have a pot luck for the fireman and their families, and anybody else that wanted to come along and just in, and I was with my father and Bill Wilson and uh, Garth Wilson and a couple other guys when they were having this conversation and they said um, the �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 4 girls would like to play you in volleyball and we think they can beat you and the fireman just kind of laughed and we went our way. Well we got to the, we got to the party and uh, they played volleyball but the girls played topless [laughing] They beat the fireman so, that’s how, I guess liberated Oxbow was. KK: Well…. PW: …From my limited perspective. KK: I’m glad you brought that up because others have said that, you know a lot of those rumors about strange things going on there were true and I think that’s good that for the future that people ‘yeah it was real open I guess, from what I understand’. Um. PW: And of course, just as an aside note, Mary Kay Bettles was chasing us out of there uh, if we tried to fish or something. KK: Yeah, the sheriff? PW: Yeah right the sheriff of Oxbow-ham. KK: Oh boy, um, let’s see [pause] what did, what what, what did you do for a living here? PW: Um, [paused] well first I mowed lawns, when I was a kid and then when I turned 16, in the summer I would drive the dry cleaning truck for my father and then in the evening I would work the back bar cashier’s station at the Coral Gables, the back bar being the bar that was back on the river. And um, just cause my mother and Vy Fox knew each other very well, course Vy had her hair cut by my mother there, as did most of the women in town, and um, that was essentially it. I was ether drive the dry cleaning truck or, and before I had a license um, I was just doing work in the dry cleaning plant for my father in the summer, um, and that could get to be a very hot place of course, everything was driven by steam, the presses and everything else so, but that was my summer job. KK: Um, can you describe, like what are some of the greatest changes in the area, I mean, you’ve been here for your whole life. What are some of the, things that you like about that changed or don’t like about it, or, are just really different? I mean besides, you know you talked about the uh, the short season. PW: Yeah, well the thing that, [pause] there’s really nothing that I dislike. Change happens, I mean that’s just, that’s a given, um, we’re lucky were a harbor town and we have some of the things because in my, in my career, which really isn’t pertinent to this, but I’ve been in front of about 50 different municipalities in Michigan, zoning and land use issues and there are a lot of small towns around that just, they would, they would give their left arm to have the type of cash and everything that Saugatuck generates. The thing that I, I’ll be very candid with you, the thing that I don’t like, and of course it gets me in trouble a lot, is that I don’t like new people coming into town and saying well this is the way we think it should be and um, my, I, I’ve been zoning administrator in Douglas 3 times and have been fired from that position 3 times and one of the things that would get me fired is that people would come in and say ‘Well we’ve been visiting here for 40 year and we think we should have some say’ in you know zoning and stuff like that and I would say, politely, ‘Well my family has lived here continuously for 127 years, we do have say in what happens here’ and, that would get me fired occasionally [laughs] so. That is my biggest headache, personally, about people that we’re here now and we want nothing to change from here on out. But if it hadn’t changed to that point, we wouldn’t have come here. �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 5 [00:15:14] KK: Right. PW: Were here now, we don’t want anybody else to come and that’s what bothers me. KK: Okay. Um, you know, because this is supposed to be about summer memories and all that, are there any special things you can tell us about summer. I mean, I know you talked about you you fooled around on the river and that with the boats but, and any other special things about summer? PW: [Pause] Well, as kids we were just footloose and fancy free. My typical summer evening, um, a lot of my close friends all had families that either worked or had businesses literally right downtown. Within the two or three blocks of downtown. That’s where there jobs were and at 5 o’clock or 6 o’clock all the couples would go over, my mother and father, Ward and Betty Martin, and Val Smith postmaster and his wife and you know, names that I can’t even remember now. They had what they called the 5 o’clock club over at the Coral Gables and they would all go over there and they would each give their kids $1 and for that we’d go down the street, to either Ms. Balls restaurant or across the street from my house to Mrs., Ms. Simmons restaurant and for 60 some odd cents we’d get a blue plate special with a pork chop and green beans and mashed potatoes and everything else and then a movie [coughs] at the big pavilion, and there was a new one every night, was 12 cents and a bag of popcorn was either a nickel or a dime, something like that. So, for a dollar our parents had a 2 and a half, 3 hour baby sitter just built right in and they, they knew where we were all the time. We were either at one of these restaurants or we were watching the movie. And on Monday nights down at the, uh, at the um, tennis courts, every Monday night there’d be a square dance and there’d be a painter in front of the building which is now the ‘Always going out of business’ . KK: Oh yeah. PW: Downtown that would paint oil paintings every night from scratch, he’d just start painting the scenery or something like that, and the most funny thing I can remember about that is he had lights of course on and it would attract mosquitos and the mosquitos were always getting caught in the oil paint. He’d had to flick them off and… KK: …Yeah. Was that Hasselbar who was doing that? PW: Haven’t the foggiest. KK: Okay, because I know there was a guy named Hasselbar that used to sit in the street and do them. That might have been him. You know, uh, you’ve been here a long time and I’ve talked with other people about the difference, geographically, and what I mean by that is, I’ve heard stories all like from the Belvedere you could see downtown because there went really trees. Can you talk about that a little bit? What what did it look like, because now when you see photos of Saugatuck it’s just full of trees. Were there as many trees? PW: I think there were as many trees, I think they had just not grown up to the point that they have now and it’s just something that, it’s strange that you mention that because I used to work in Kalamazoo and um, in the, in the 80’s coming back from Kalamazoo, at the top of the uh M89 hill before you drop down to Blue Star Highway you could see Lake Michigan, well now you can’t because it’s all just huge tree �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 6 foliage out there. And even driving some of the country roads, you know, roads where you used to be able to see the sky, trees are now overhanging it and I think that’s it. KK: Yeah. PW: It’s just the natural course of things. KK: True of anywhere. PW: Yeah. KK: Right. But it’s just kind of interesting because I know, even when I’ve looked at photos, it just looked different. PW: Yeah, and well probably, well, that was it was coming out of the timber era of the late 1800’s. So there weren’t a lot of big trees around, and it took them a while to get back to that point again. KK: Do you remember the music festivals or the motorcycle groups or the races, I mean what, did you participate in any of that? PW: What races are you talking about? KK: Well, I think, weren’t there motorcycle races or there, wasn’t there a racetrack just outside of town? PW: Oh yeah, Air Park Speedway. KK: Yes. PW: Yes, yeah I, my father, my father would take me to that all the time. Ev Thomas was the uh, announcer and of course Ev was, no matter what Ev did it was funny and he’d talk about the old ’37 Ford coming around the corner with its door flapping and stuff like that. Well that was about it because they were racing jalopy’s on a dirt track and um, my father when we got out of the uh, Air Force got a pilot’s license and he would fly out of that little airport and the um, the headquarters of the airport was that building that sits right out on the road now, and still does, just just south of the entrance that goes into the estate that’s back in there now and the old Air Park Speedway property and he would fly just a Piper Cub and you know, he’d he’d sit in the front seat and I’d sit in the back and that’s how wide it was, it wasn’t two seats wide. And um, the um, there were no motorcycle races, there was the um, the road race, the called the Saugatuck or the Oval Hill Climb which I partici-participated in all of its years. Took several trophies, where you basically raced from the bottom of the first hill to the top of the last and because you could get going quite fast through there, um, there were pylon set up you had to slow down and get through them cause you’d lose 5 second if you hit a pylon that would cost you literally first place in your event if you hit one of those. The thing that a lot of people don’t believe is that in one of the races there was a guy that was down from Holland with a uh, a Corvette called Der fliegende Hollände or the Flying Dutchman, highly souped up and I had my dad’s 8mm movie camera, I’d asked if I could ride through with him and that was back, well we wore seatbelts, we didn’t have helmets or anything and we went up first hill and down into the valley of the second and then going up towards the gate there was a pylon she had to go through, slow down before got up to the gate, just before we got to those pylons and we were going 107 miles an hour in that Corvette on the Oval Road. [00:21:14] �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 7 KK: Wow. PW: A lot of people just, you know they just can’t believe that but. KK: Does the film exist? PW: No, we got going so fast, I just, I could hold the camera up. I was back in my seat like this and I was forward in my seat like that when he got on the brakes and uh, I would be, I would be right at the top of third gear with my, uh, ’65 Corvair, I’d be about 83 or 84 miles an hour you know, and that’s flying on the Oval Road and after a while people that didn’t know what they were doing would come and they’d get out of control and they’d bang up the guardrail post so the Saugatuck just called it off. KK: Yeah. PW: It ran from about ’66 to maybe ’71 ’72 something like that, I know it stopped. Which is probably a good thing. KK: Yeah, probably. Do you remember the um, the rock festivals, the two of them on Potawatomi Beach? PW: No. Not at all. KK: You don’t? PW: No. KK: Okay. Do you remember the crowds? PW: I don’t, you know, do you know when those were? KK: Yeah! Ah, ’68 and ’69? PW: Oh yeah, no I wouldn’t have been here then. KK: Oh okay. PW: No, I mean would’ve been, I might have been here, you know for a weekend or something. KK: Yeah. PW: But I lived in Lansing at that time. KK: Oh okay, well that really um, I didn’t know that. Um, and let’s see. You know I have a question for you PG [pronounced PEEGUH] How involved were people in Saugatuck with what went on in Douglas? In other words, did people go back and forth a lot? No. And the reason I’m asking this is Jane VanDiss had the same reaction you did. She said ‘we just never went there’. PW: We would go, just because my family ate out a lot because they both worked, all day. We would go to what is now Everyday People Café. KK: Yeah. �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 8 PW: Um, I forget the owner back then, Bill somebody. I have a picture, I don’t think I brought it along with me but I have a picture of a birthday party I had there when I was like 5 or 6 years old, and you can see on the side the exact same décor that’s there now. Those shelves built into the wall that have that Depression glass. I don’t know if they’re still like that. I haven’t been there for long time. KK: Yeah, sort of an Art Deco look. I have a question for you, um, in going to Douglas do you remember the Greyson School of Painting at all? PW: No. KK: Okay, because there was a little building back, one picture I know of exists of it, and I always ask that question because it’s something I’m very interested in. PW: Something that I’m sure a lot of people know but just don’t think about, um, and when I bring it up they’re surprised. They um, the uh, Red Barn Theatre got its start in the little building down the hill from Joyce Petters on Lawn Street and most people don’t know that. KK: Yeah, yeah I did know that. PW: In fact I’ve got a Red Barn program in there that I’m going to give to you that has, has me as of the players. KK: Oh! Who were you in the? PW: I was one of the dead people in the cemetery in Our Town. So I didn’t have a speaking part, but Dave Showers and I got to play two of the dead people and we were just sitting in chairs while the play is you know, going, going on in front of us. KK: Oh, oh, that’s fun. That’s fun. Uh, what are some of your hopes for the future for here and for the community? PW: To be honest I haven’t even thought about it. KK: You just seem like you’re happy here. PW: My hopes, well yeah I am, my hopes for the future, I can’t imagine living anywhere else. I can’t imagine having these kinds of, I mean how many places you get to live where a huge building burns down you know every two, every two years or something like that? Even the Leeland Lodge and stuff like that, buildings people don’t even remember anymore. KK: Uh, remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time, when someone listens to this thing 50 years from now, what would you like them uh, to know most about your life in the community right now? [00:25:09] PW: [Pause] That I always tried to be a thorn in somebodies side. [Both laugh] KK: That’s probably how, ‘Oh PG Walter, oh yeah, we remember him” so, you know the, when the council is having trouble getting the expansion of Blue Star put together in the ’96 whenever the heck �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 9 that was, I mean there was just, there was a lot of people just adamant Joyce Petter and everything didn’t want it and the Council was fighting and Deb Couty called me one day and she said ‘PG you need to come and talk to George Baker and I’, I said okay. They wanted to hire me, basically a gun fighter to come in and get the squabbling solved, and they did, and I did and um, there’s probably not a lot of people around that would have the temperament to do something like that but mine, mine is like that. You know when you’ve been in front of literally, one of my best friends in Lansing, in fact he almost got me in trouble once at a court hearing we were at, was uh, oh god, Mike, can’t think of his last name, ex Supreme Court Justice, geez. Mike Cavanagh he was a Lansing City Attorney when I was doing developing work up in Lansing so we knew each other quite well and uh, you know, it’s just, it’s just, when you, when you revolve, revolve and evolve around people like that and see all the things that I’ve seen in zoning across 50 municipalities, you just get a, you get an instinct for what’s going on that’s right and what’s wrong within municipalities and even though they think what they’re doing is right, after I spent 2 months with them, they fire their professional planner out of Royal Oak Michigan because it’s just no doing it, they’ve written a lousy new Ordinance and charging them 50,000 to do it and so, I, I get under peoples skin there’s just no question about it and its just the way I am. KK: Well, there are people that like you! [Both laugh] PW: Well, good! KK: Uh, anything else that you’d like to share that I maybe haven’t asked you about? And I know you brought some stuff, was there something in particular, you know that you want to share? PW: Well I was just piling stuff in here because its stuff that I want to have end up here anyway. Its stuff that didn’t make it into the uh, didn’t make it into the, most of it is all just paper stuff. This is my dad pushing a barrel that said Community Cleaners on it in one of the Memorial Day parades, many many moons ago and these are things that I have no use for anymore, period, so I just as soon not take them home. KK: Well, yeah, we very much appreciate anything that’s shared with us, so. PW: This is my mother and father in Chicago in 1938. This is my mother just washed the car on Pearl Harbor Day. KK: Oh wow. PW: Um, these are more of my father’s thing in Fennville, and it’s got a tab there. You may have this book in your file or system somewhere. KK: Oh, great. Oh that’s great PG. PW: Class of ’60. KK: Uh huh. PW: A somewhere rare postcard because they realized their mistake and didn’t print a lot of them, it’s an interesting view but look at the…. �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 10 KK: Oh the Muskegon River. PW: Yeah, yeah. KK: Yes. Yeah, that’s wonderful. PW: And this is just one I think looking at the cars this was probably taken in 1957 or so, Butler Street. That’s me and Fred Gores, appointed to Boys State. KK: Oh my gosh you know that’s so funny, I really have to look to see you in here. Well I’ve always known you with a mustache and that so. Well, that’s great. PW: This is um, one of the Venetian night, shows the old Butler and that happened to be our boat. KK: Oh! PW: Just because I’ve been around here so long I’m in 4 postcards. KK: Yeah. PW: Um, my mother is in 6 and I’ll never beat her record I’m afraid. These are, I can’t this book that I took these out of because I was going to take these to various people. But this is from the ‘50s I think. KK: Okay. Oh yeah. Well, you know what, the pavilion gone so it’s got to be after ’60. PW: Oh yeah, right, right, okay. I was just looking at the, the stories of the Butler but, yeah I should’ve realized that, considering the day it was. This was the High School band in the late ‘50’s. KK: Oh that’s fun. PW: This is really old. [Pause] [Inaudible] Well anyway the names are all on the back. I know you like to have those kinds of things. [00:30:10] KK: Oh yeah. PW: My Aunt Toots’ ID and everything from the Order of Eastern Star there, 50th anniversary, golden anniversary book. KK: Oh! Oh, that’s neat. PW: Commemorative map, ’76. Oh, here’s the Red Barn Theatre. Got a lot of interesting ads in there from places that of course, no longer exist. I know what they all are. KK: Yeah. PW: What does it say, Philip Walter? Philip Walter. I was Wally Web. [Laughs] sitting by myself, there were other bodies in the cemetery too. Well this is just the fact that I got out of the 2nd grade in 1948. KK: Oh that’s fun. PW: Back before there was the um, uh radar tower, the Sea Scouts used to have to take the cable up. �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 11 KK: Oh! PW: For the power, for the star every year and that’s a bunch of us, myself included. KK: Are you the one that told me the story about unplugging the lights? PW: Oh, sloppy mountain? KK: Yeah. Well why don’t you tell that story. PW: Well, we uh, me and kids um, the star of course was all white lightbulbs. And they were just incandescent 1600 watt screw in bulbs just like you’d have in your house. KK: Yeah and you’re talking about the start on top of Mount Baldhead. PW: Yeah, yes. And the Christmas tree in Douglas had all colored lights on it, but they were all, all the same as like the screw in at your house. So we got the great idea one night we start swapping those bulbs out and um, we started doing it and we were doing it in stages, because we didn’t want to just get caught up there, we thought we’d do 6 or 8, 10 12 a time whatever there was and the, we were taking them out of the tree in Douglass, and the police showed up and um, the police department at that time was in a little side annex wing of the Maplewood Hotel right there on Butler street and uh, the McCrea’s had the, had the hotel and Bobby McCrea was the dispatcher, and she said that a woman had called in and said that it was a sign that Jesus was come back or something because the light on the star on Mount Baldhead was changing colors, so. That’s what got us in trouble, had she not made that phone call, we probably would’ve done our 2 or 3 more trips and got them all swapped out. KK: Oh that’s funny. PW: We got, you know, we kind of got a reprimand but we didn’t get thrown in jail or anything like that so. KK: One last question I have for you, uh, are you aware at all of Walkers Landing? PW: Yes. Just that it exists. KK: Did you know anything about it? PW: Zero. KK: Yeah, okay. Well it’s just something I’m doing research on, so I’m asking. PW: We would go, you know when we were when we used to uh, uh, spear a lot of carp and we would haul them up river to the rendering works uh, by the 58th street bridge and we would get, I think a penny a pound or 2 cents a pound and on a good day we’d get 25, 30 bucks cause we’d haul 2 or 3 full boat loads of dead carp up there for the, and we’d go by Walkers Landing but I, I had no connection or idea. KK: Okay! Was curious. Okay well, um. PW: Here. You probably have a copy of this too but it’s just things that, you know, should end up here. �Philip Walter – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel June 2 2018 12 KK: Well that, you know that will go in the archive and uh, no that’s great and thank you for bringing these things. PW: and this was just a personal item. This is my script for the play I was in, that was happening two days after the big pavilion burned. ED Lambers was afraid we weren’t going to be able to get it pulled off because of the…that was the senior play. KK: The, the title is funny. In that context. PW: I never thought about it that way but that’s right just 2 or 3 days. KK: Okay, well I want to thank you for coming in today, I really do PG [pronounced PEEGUH] and anything else you want to share? PW: I think I shared this with you about the day the big pavilion first, course, I’m, I’m on the CD or whatever it is, but, my mother realized [coughs] because of the heat of the fire, that the fireman were literally getting sunburned and she ran into the drugstore and Dick Snyder who was the Pharmacist at the time or half owner or whatever he was. She just, you know, my mother being my mother she just said ‘Dick I want all the sunburn ointment you’ve got.’ And he starts and he says ‘Well Lucille what kind of sunburn are you trying to treat?’ she says ‘Just give me all the goddamn sunburn stuff you’ve got!’ [Laughing] so she loaded it up in a big bad and took it over and they just smeared it all on their faces and their arms and everything because it, you know, it was breaking windows on places across the street from it. KK: Yeah, from the heat. PW: Yep. KK: Okay, thank you. PW: Yeah, you’re very welcome. [00:35:17] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-WalterPG-20180602 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walter, Phillip Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-02 Title A name given to the resource Phillip Walter (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Phillip "PG" Walter grew up in downtown Saugatuck. This interview covers his memories of childhood, work experiences, and the burning of the Big Pavilion in 1960. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Fire departments Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b77af0c2089272ccbcfe17f12b5308d.mp3 33df03e046afacf2313d90ff5b75bf27 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a37b40a9a15d2f8c5fc5d1a1146cf9a.pdf cf8f3de14d42f5e563848d51db3c594a PDF Text Text Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 1 Nathan Neitering: Alright, here we go. Okay, this is Nathan Neitering I’m here today with Candace Van Oss at the old schoolhouse in Douglas, Michigan on July 21st 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Uh, this is a continuation of uh, part one that got cut off inadvertently. So we will pick up approximately where we left off. Thank you again for taking the time to talk with me today. Um, can you please say and then spell your full name? CVO: Candace, C A N D A C E Van Oss V as in Victor A N O S S NN: Very good, thank you, um and so we'll sort of pick up where we left off which was um, your school memories at Douglas Elementary. Four classrooms you said, uh and you still see many, some of your former classmates around town, is that, that’s correct? CVO: oh yes NN: Okay, uh, and you have any teachers particularly stick out in your mind? CVO: there was, well, the one that was my kindergarten and first grade teacher was a family friend so right there, you know it was like, um, I had to call her Mrs. Wicks even though [laughs] she was Natalie! NN: Okay, yeah CVO: But, one of my classmates who was also my best friend at the time, it was her nephew David Wicks and when he had to call her Mrs. Wicks, [laughing] it was, you know, that was, that was. And there were three Johns, I remember the, uh, 3 or 4? Oh, John Thomas, John Rich, John Drepeck, and uh John Build and uh, a couple of Nancy’s and, you now that kind of thing. But I was the only Candace, so! [Laughs] NN: You were the only Candace, alright. Very good, um, let me follow up with some of my questions here. [Pause] Were there are other places in town, besides at school obviously, during the school year and down by the Kalamazoo River in Douglas where you recall spending time, other businesses or churches or other places? CVO: oh yes! Um, we spent a lot of time in the ball park which, you know now it's got statues and, back. I was telling my son just the other day that they had done nothing to the park when we were kids. It was had, been left for years. we got like this broken drinking fountain, you know, we knew that if we turned it on it would just spray up in the trees and there was still shuffle board equipment, nobody played and there were shuffle board courts, yeah the shuffle board whatever were behind these benches and we’d get them out and of course, you know! And uh, they did not, uh really you know fix the park. NN: It was not maintained? �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 2 CVO: Right, for a long time and uh but we had fun just goofing off and you know chasing each other. Watching the um, the little league games we had friends that were you know, playing little league and we’d go up there to watch them and they were all, used to be at night. NN: Okay CVO: You know evening, and then we go across the road, there was the Dinette. Which is now the Everyday People… NN: Café. Yes. CVO: They had, they stayed open all day and till like eight o'clock or nine o'clock at night, and so we would go there to get ice cream after because it was right there and we ride our, you know, ride our bikes and us girls, sometimes we’d, I had one friend I remember his name was Paul and he was playing the [pause] the game, he's he's playing the game… NN: Okay. CVO: And these girls and I wanted to grab a bike and go bike riding. So we said, ‘Paul’, [laughs] I said, ‘Paul, can I use your bike uh, we’re going to go bike riding’ and he says ‘No!’ and then another gal that was with us said, ‘Paul she is going to take your bike, okay.’ And then [laughing] and we just, you know absconded with Paul’s bike! [NN laughs] But, everyone knew each other then, you know, it’s a different time. If your, if the neighbors or the towns people saw you out any later, you know. It was like ‘is she supposed to be?’ NN: Somebody might hear about, huh? Yes? CVO: Yes, and they would call your parents! I remember one man called one night and my dad answered the phone and he said, ‘she's standing right here’ and the man saw a girl that looked like me up, we had a telephone booth and it [inaudible] you know and he thought it was me, standing in this telephone booth you know after ten o'clock at night, and so he called my dad and dads like, no? [00:05:04] NN: Wasn’t you, huh? CVO: Wasn’t me! But you know we spent just a lot of time hanging around and there were two stores that are, of course, no longer. One was a bakery. NN: Okay �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 3 CVO: It was owned by my cousins when I was very young and they made wedding cakes and, you know whole, whole thing. NN: What was the name of that bakery? CVO: Just Douglas NN: Douglas Bakery? CVO: Bakery, yeah. And then down the street there was a store and it sold, it was a newsstand and it also sold candy, of course and uh, Knickknacks and this and that, and you went and got your paper there every day instead of, of, at time having this delivery or whatever. You went and picked up your Sentinel at the, and it was called Tyler's General Store, Tyler, but we always called it Neevas because the lady that owned it was Neeva Tyler and she was so wonderful and if, in the olden days, it was there when I was little, if you came in with a quarter, [inaudible] [laughs] you would usually get a bag full of stuff and still leave with your quarter because she would, [NN laughs] She was a wonderful, you know… NN: Very generous with the kids? CVO: Yes. NN: Okay. CVO: And her family was you know, well, well liked around her they just lived a couple blocks away from the store and… NN: So the store both of those, those two stores were both on Center Street? CVO: Right NN: In Douglas. CVO: Where the, yeah. Where Neeva’s store is where the um, coffee place is? NN: Oh, uh, Respite Cappuccino? CVO: Yes, yes. NN: Okay, yep. CVO: That was that. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 4 NN: Okay, okay um, and you said you used to go get ice cream at the dinette, what was your favorite flavor of ice-cream? CVO: Chocolate. NN: Excellent. Do you have any other memories of being in the dinette? CVO: Oh yes. NN: What was that venue like? CVO: My, well as usual, it was friends and my mother went there every morning of my schooling you know, and she said after she drop me off at Douglas Elementary she’d go down there for coffee and they had a coffee klatch, you know, and the lady that owned it was my friend David, the same David whose, [laughs] his, his other Aunt owned the, the dinette and so there were a lot of times when we would go in there so my mother could have coffee in the afternoon and chat with, you know, the post master. And David would be there because his mother was waitress. His Aunt owned and his Mother waitressed. So sometimes David and I would just sit in the booths in the, in the back and I remember we're just learning to read both of us and we were reading Doctor Seuss, the, like Cat in the Hat, [laughs] but to each other. But, you know, we, we, yeah, we hung out there a lot. NN: Okay alright. Um, and the ball fields for, the poorly maintained ball field is where Beery Field is now, right? CVO: Yes NN: Right, right down, in downtown Douglas. It is, it's very nicely maintained. Um, did you go to church at all at local church? CVO: Um, later on. Uh, the Catholic Church that I talked about that across the, right across the street from our home on Washington Street. That became the Community Church at first in about 1965, start like the very end of 1965, and my parents decided since we lived across the street [laughs] NN: Convenient CVO: My mother had been Catholic we, um, went to mass a couple times but when I reached like uh, if you were Catholic you usually went on to the Catholic School. The Catholics had their own elementary school which was situated in several different places. But, my mother put in kindergarten, of course in Douglas and then she knew I was, loved public school and uh, she didn't go to the Catholic church that much, anyway any more so, thank goodness I got to go public school because the Catholic school was all Nuns and they even lived Downtown here in… NN: Oh, right at their site there? �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 5 CVO: Yeah. NN: Okay, oh interesting. CVO: Yes and that used to be a school down there too. NN: Right, right. Saint Peters, right? CVO: Yes, yes. NN: Okay, yep. Um, did you have any summer jobs here in Douglas or in Saugatuck? CVO: Mostly babysitting. Which was kind of fun because, I loved to babysit in Saugatuck because I’d round up the kids and take them downtown with me, you know, when I was a teenager so I could still get out and about but have the kids with me. And uh, I had another boy that I used to babysit for quite often on Douglas Lakeshore and he was, sweet little boy and it was back in the Batman era, Batman and Robin were you know and so we have to play Batman and Robin when I babysat, we’d have to put on capes and leap about the house but, hey, you know, I got paid to do it! NN: And it’s memorable now, right? CVO: Yes! NN: Um, did you spend much time out by the lakeshore? CVO: Oh yes. NN: Yes. CVO: Yeah, my, my dad's um, ah, that was his big business, of course in the summer he had to open all the cottages, turn on the water uh, I met many of his customers and they’d say, ‘oh, you know, bring her down, you know, she can go to our beach’ or I made friends with people that had grand kids and stuff down there, and the grand kids would invite me over. NN: Oh! CVO: Yes! And you got to be, you know, you got to have your own little stretch of beach because it was private NN: Right. CVO: And so we had many fun hours, you know, down, right down at the beaches. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 6 NN: Um, you mentioned going to Saugatuck High School and the math in my head says that would’ve been probably in the late 60’s, early ‘70s? Okay? What can you tell me about Saugatuck... [CVO Laughs] In the ‘60s? CVO: My ex-husband said I should write a book. Um, because I remember more than, than he does. But, the school, when we got there in 7th grade, our class was so huge, by then, because they had you know, it was Saugatuck kids, Douglas kids, Pearl kids, Glenn kids, yes. We, we had the best biggest class ever to come to Saugatuck and the principal and the teachers were all, kind of shook up because there were so many of us they had to divide us into 7A, 7B, 7C and 7D. And, um, we, you know spent the next year from 7 to 12 there and the school got so crowded because it was a smaller high school it’s no longer there, you know but then they were going to build eventually that one [inaudible] CVO: the school that… NN: The current school, yeah. CVO: but we had an open campus policy because there were so many of us that if you didn't have a class and you weren't in any trouble for anything you could just go downtown and go to the drug store, go do the… I majored in drinking coffee my senior year because I had so many credits that I’d have a class and then I have a big hour off and then I have a, another class, and you know, and, and, my friends and I made many many trips to town and there are two different ways to go. NN: Okay CVO: There were the front steps...but we’d take the trail which was, went past uh, on uh, Lake Street. NN: Okay CVO: Or you would go the back and there were back stairs, that now they kind of run behind the, I, I think it’s a, that arts center, whatever? NN: Saugatuck Center for the Arts, yes. CVO: Yeah. NN: Yes there is a separate stairway back there CVO: yes. NN: Okay. CVO: and, but that was considered the smoker, [laughs] the smoking kids. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 7 NN: Oh! CVO: Steps, if you were going to the steps NN: Back steps CVO: Yes. NN: Interesting, I love it. So what was your coffee destination? Was it the drug store or somewhere else? CVO: No, it was a place called the Corner Cafe which now is a Mexican restaurant I believe, on the, um, on, when you come on Lake Street also but, and um the family owned it, at the time. The one waitress, especially my senior year like I said, my friend Bev and I were in and out and in and out all day and after a while she’d say ‘don't you kids ever go to school?’ [Laughing] ‘Don’t you have somewhere to be?’ [Laughs] and, but, like I said if you didn't have to be there, they didn't want you there wasn't the room. They even put, a, portable classrooms. NN: Oh CVO: It was like in a, [laughs] they put up about I think it was around six. NN: On the property of the main school? CVO: On the property, yes. NN: Okay, hm. And you said your friend Bev, what's her name? CVO: Her name was Beverly Simonson. NN: Okay. CVO: and then her, she um, passed away in 1986 very suddenly and her brother was, is Bruce Simonson who is the uh, up, up until last year or so he was the head of the Public Works Department NN: Yes, in Saugatuck CVO: Yes NN: The Public Works Director, that's right. CVO: Yes NN: Okay, um, and Bev was in the same grade as you? �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 8 CVO: oh yes we were only about, her birthday was December 30th and mine is December 8th and, and so we were together a great deal. [Laughs] A great deal at the time. NN: do you, um would you ever go anywhere else in downtown Saugatuck, even on the weekends or after school? CVO: Oh sure. NN: Yeah? CVO. Yeah. Um, Marro’s which, you know, was uh, the big pizza place and the time like, well now you can’t. [Laughs] But back then, [inaudible] it was called something else and I, but owners were named Roy and Rose Krawitz, and you would order your pizza and you could just go in the back door, and sit in the kitchen with them if you wanted and wait. If your pizza was to go. And when I was dating what turned out to be my husband, now he’s my ex-husband, later. We remember going there every Saturday night and back then you could just go in, get served, you know, get out! It wasn't like now with the with the reservations NN: Yes CVO: and the lines, and the… NN: It was just the neighborhood pizza place. CVO: Uh huh NN: Right? Okay. I know you would have been pretty young, do you remember ever going to the pavilion before it burned? CVO: No, I remember going past it, I remember thinking like I was in a foreign country a little kid, to see a building that big. NN: yeah. CVO: But no, at my mother, of course, and her brother and her friends always used it for a dance hall, and just um, previous to it burning down it had become a movie theater or a while and I remember my friend Jackie lived right over there [laughs] right next door from this place um, I remember Jackie and her mother were talking about going, they went to the movies and stuff, but, I, no, I never was inside. NN: Okay, okay. But, you, you said you watched it when it was on fire. CVO: Oh yeah NN: So you saw the end, unfortunately, right? �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 9 CVO: It was on the news that night and everything, I mean, you know, it’s like, it was the end of an era for many people. NN: For sure and, and I bet your Dad didn't get home till real late that night, as the Fire Chief, or as Police, Police Chief at the time. CVO: Yeah NN: Yes CVO: Um, he did manage to see it on the news when it, when it came on but, and all the adults I remember that, were familiar with it of course which was most of them, [laughs] you know, most of the population were all just sick, you know, that night, just, you know, beyond belief. NN: Um, when you were in high school, what was your favorite subject? CVO: History NN: Oh! You’re in the right place, I think. Anything particular any specific era or just history in general? CVO: just history in general. I had our wonderful teacher. He, a lot of the boys never liked him but his name was Richard McFall and I, I was always very interested in his class and kept, they kept my attention and, and uh I just really uh, enjoyed, uh, his classes a great deal and he was only like ten years older than us really but you know he tried to be this bossy, you know, scary guy and I just you know, right, you know but he was uh, one of my favorite, favorite teachers. When he, when uh, we graduated, that, on the night we graduated, people lined up. You, you, the seniors would line up in the hall and then people that were at the graduation, of course come and wish you well, and shake your hand and kiss you and hug you, and I put my arms around him and said ‘I’m going to miss you so much’. NN: And uh, what year did you graduate from high school? CVO: ‘72. NN: 1972. Okay, alright and you were living in Douglas. Was there a bus? How did you get to Saugatuck, to the high school? CVO: Um, in the earlier years, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th we had a bus that would uh, be picking up the elementary kids and when he’d, they drop the elementary kids off in the morning and the bus will come through Douglas and pick us up. At one time, the place used the post office and the post office got sick of us [laughs] and they made us go down to, like where the respite is now and pick, and catch the bus down there. NN: okay. Alright um, and then at the end of the day you take the bus back to Douglas as well? Okay. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 10 CVO: Mhm and it would let you off in a different place. It let you off on Main Street across from the dinette, you know. NN: Okay CVO: in that corner there NN: Um, so how would you, how is Douglas, how would you uh, explain how Douglas is changed from what you remember of the community when you were a child? You still live here now, how, how, what, how would you describe that change? CVO: it's gotten, you know, so built up. There used to be a time when uh, when you went to the store. DeMond’s which was called Taft's year ago. When that, that opened when I was in about 5th grade and you just knew everybody, you know, you’d go in and, and it was only open till six o'clock every night and you had to get your stuff you know, by a certain time, it was, and uh, you know, uh it was like unheard of, a store being open, and you know oh my goodness and uh, so over the years with um, more and more population more and more different stores and different things they even sell now. I tell you the truth I even don't know, you know, what a lot of them are, someone says to me have you been to the so-and-so, no. [Laughs] NN: No [laughs] and, let me see. But you still, you still do see many people who you grew up with or their siblings or something who are, who do still live in town, so there still is that, a portion of that home grown component that is still here. CVO: Oh yes. Oh yeah, we, uh, have a good time when we do get together. [Laughs] NN: I was going to say, do you get, do you have a little group that gets together and, reminisces? CVO: We have before, yes, we have but not of lately, but, we, yeah. [Laughs] You know, and um, and that's always fun and funny thing is you always care about each other, which, is another thing where a lot of people go to school and never really know who they went to school with and, did, yeah. And uh, where, if we see another person, from our you know, our old thing they’ll say, how’s so-and so, or, have you seen so-and-so, or, so it's like a little network. NN: It is, it’s a little family almost, right? A community family, sort of. Okay, um, uh, I know you said when you were younger, you would, you could go to the lakeshore uh, because of the people that your father was, was working with or doing business. Did you ever know anybody else who was out in the Lakeshore area? Even as you were getting older, becoming an adult? CVO: Oh, um, yes, my, we had real good family friend and um, her and her son, oh, uh, lived on Lakeshore all year round. She worked at the bank in Saugatuck and her name was Leigh Showers and her son was Kendall, who, Kendall was very well known around here for a long time because he was a disc jockey or radio announcer or whatever, in Holland at WHTC. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 11 NN: Okay CVO: And so, knowing them was, and we had a news man who I was just talking to someone about this too. A newsman from Channel 8, their, one of their news anchors at Channel 8 moved here when I was about 6 because his daughter came in the first grade with us and his name was Bill Alan and he lived on [starts Laughing] lake, on Lakeshore too and everybody was like, it was like the local celebrity. Bill Alan! NN: And what was his daughter's name? CVO: Nancy. NN: Who, one of the Nancy's who was in your class, okay. CVO: Yes, she, she was a very, she graduated way ahead, she knew she was away ahead of us as far as, and, but it was fun to see them and, right, I’ve seen him on TV, you know? Whoa! NN: Um, we've heard some stories from other people that the sort of late ‘60s were kind of a, uh, tumultuous time in the community? What do you recall about that? CVO: I know that in the early ‘60s, when Dad was on the patrol thing and my mother and I were at the square dance… NN: Yes CVO: and we came home that night and we could hear yelling and screaming and shouting in Saugatuck and they, at the time were saying that Saugatuck was having a riot. NN: Okay, yes. CVO: And I don’t really, you know, I don’t really know who was involved or what happened but you could… NN: …so you were in Douglas… CVO: …in my room… NN: …by, by Lake Kalamazoo… CVO: …Yes… NN: …And you could hear the sound… CVO: …Yes… �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 12 NN: … of people across the water from Saugatuck. Wow that’s amazing. Yes. Do you recall [pause] motorcycles? CVO: Oh yes. NN: Yes? CVO: Mhm NN: Buzzing about town? Tell me about that, what do you remember? CVO: Well, they were kind of, you know, they seemed so scary at the time, they were kind of, you know. But, one time I was walking through Douglas and this poor guy, you know the guy with the black leather [inaudible] on his motorcycle comes up to me about 12, and he says ‘um, is this Saugatuck?’ and he’s got this, you know, really worried, like, I bet he’s going to cry look on and I said ‘No, Saugatuck is across the river, you just get on the bridge’ and he was like ‘Oh! Thank goodness’ you know he had heard all about this wild Saugatuck town and he’s Douglas and he’s going ‘I’m lost!’ NN: Yep CVO: And people before did stop me even when I still lived in Douglas, um, I moved out of uh Douglas in about 19, uh, no, 2001 and but people still would stop me sometimes and say how do you get, this one lady went, ‘Well how do I get the Ferry over to Saugatuck?’ and I said ‘No, no, you can just go right up here, there’s a bridge.’ But she thought Saugatuck was the, that you had to get there by boat. NN: That was the only way to go, was the ferry! Okay, okay. Interesting. Um, uh, do you remember anything about uh, rock concerts in Saugatuck? Yes? CVO: Yes NN: Yes CVO: Another Dad story NN: Yep CVO: My father was Saugatuck Township Supervisor by that time. NN: okay CVO: Man was, and they had announced that this man, that was a promoter big promoter in um, Detroit. His name was Mike Quatro and he was going to have this big, you know, pop festival like, like Woodstock, you know [laughs] and it was going to out by Goshorn, but was it accessible, you know, just through Saugatuck. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 13 NN: Right. CVO: and it was about 1968 or 9. I, I think it had to be about I, I was about fifteen. And the couple nights before they had a big meeting at the Douglas Hall over here because back then Saugatuck Township did not have a meeting place. NN: Oh a, a, okay. CVO: and my father was on a, at desk and people were yelling, you know it was not a pleasant meeting getting in his face because they didn't want all these people of course. You know, those hippies, and, and, and, all that come in here and he could not get an injunction. He did not get an injunction for it. So it went on! NN: So the festival went forward, okay. CVO: Yes it did. There were many, um, Bob Seger was there at the time he was up, just new. Uh, Ted Nugent. He was in band called the Amboy Dukes and Muddy Waters and my father did have to promise the citizens that he would go there every day. Speak to Mike Quatro, and just make sure that everything was, because people, our phone rang constantly and people were like ‘Where’s your Father!’, I was, you know, like fifteen and they’re going ‘We’re going to get your Father for this’, and I'm like yeah and um, so it was a very, you know, difficult time but we went out there. I went out there with him but the last you want to do when you’re fifteen and you think you’re really cool is going to this thing with your dad. [Laughs] NN: Hang out with your father! CVO: Yeah! And he's going to Mister Quatro, he's going ‘Oh, um, Can here, she's there somebody she wants to meet.’ I wanted to meet Ted Nugent, I wanted to meet him. And, and he says ‘What's her name again?’ [Laughing, Inaudible] and I did Muddy Waters. NN: Okay. CVO: So I, I did not realize the significance of that later until I moved to Illinois for a while and then when he died, I mean Chicago was… NN: Yeah CVO: And I’m going ‘I met him’ at the pop festival and my brother in law still has a poster from it and I wish I would've saved, Mike Quatro had all this really cool stationary that he would, he would write to my father you know various times about stuff and I did keep it for years and years but, one of those things, don’t know what, always wished I still had it. NN: Well if you ever come across some, we would love to see it. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 14 CVO: Yes. NN: What, what, did you meet Mike Quatro? CVO: Yes I did. NN: Okay, what do you remember about him, anything? CVO: Just that he [inaudible] small town, you know, and people were just lined up all over the place and the cars out in Blue Star, it was, it was a mess. And motorcycles like you know, it was, and you know people calling saying people relieving themselves in their yards, and you know the cars, and this and this and this, you know very many many complaints. NN: So your family was personally impacted by the controversy of the concert or the festival, yes? Besides what you actually experienced yourself, the phone was ringing off the hook it sounds like. [sighs] And how much longer was your dad the Township Supervisor after that? CVO: He stayed until 1982 believe it or not. He stayed there 14 about 14-15 years. NN: So his whole career then, was pretty much for public service. CVO: Right NN: First as the Police Chief, then as the Fire Chief and then as the Township Supervisor. CVO: And when you were the Township Supervisor you had many duties that they now have with someone else. He was the Sexton of the cemetery, he when someone died you had to get the books out, find out where their burial place was. Even meet with the family to show them where it was. He had to do all that, get the, write all the information back in the books. Plus he was the SSR. Okay, and then there was, uh you know, different but different jobs now, they you know, divide them up. But, he was very busy. NN: It does sound busy, the whole thing. The thing sounds busy. Um, okay I have a note here that says we may have missed a couple of minutes about um, the period when your dad was the fire chief. So if we can just rehash just a little bit of that so I have the whole story. Um, uh, you said that he was the police chief from which years? CVO: About 1950 to about 1963. NN: Okay, and then how quickly was he nominated to the position of fire chief? CVO: Like the next week. [Both laugh] NN: Okay, okay um, and you said that uh, where was the Douglas fire truck kept? �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 15 CVO: Down below the Village Hall NN: Okay, in the level, right? CVO: Yes. NN: Okay, one engine right? Yep, and uh, your family was involved with activating the siren can you tell me that story one more time? CVO: It was just a regular wall, you know, the wall switch you flip. It was in my dad’s den or his office whatever you want to call it. But we did sometimes have, if we had overnight guests, uh, they slept in there and so we were always telling them if you gonna feel around in the dark, you know for a light, don't, don't, don't flip that switch. NN: Don’t sound the alarm, right? CVO: And like I said I put a sign over it that said, this is a fire alarm, but and like I told you before if there was, there were like about two or three other people that did have the fire phone at their homes. NN: Okay, okay. CVO: But, like I said depending on who is able to answer and then a lot of times when the guys got down there, there was a chalk board there too and when theyd get the truck out and go, they’d quick write where the fire was so everyone else could [laughs] NN: They would show up and say oh we have to go here, and know where to go! Right? CVO: Yes, right. NN: That makes a lot of sense. You have to think about what the destination is right? CVO: Watching my dad and my friend Jackie's dad uh, if there was an alarm and they're looking for their shoes, looking for their, you know. Oh! [laughs] NN: He kept his gear at home? The fire, the fire, some of his fire suit, or his? CVO: He didn't. They really didn't really have much in it, they, I think he had a hat maybe, but I cent even remember [inaudible] He had some sort of pin. NN: Oh! Yes. So everybody knew he was the… CVO: Yeah! NN: Okay, he was the chief [Laughs] okay. Thank you for revisiting that. Um, uh, let's think about the future just for a minute we've been talking a lot about the past and these wonderful memories that, �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 16 and, and you know obviously you remember a lot of the detail which is, which is fabulous. Um, what are your some of your hopes for the Saugatuck/Douglas of the future? CVO: That it can that um, attracts other people to want to at least come and visit to uh, experience. We have the river, the beach. Um, the, um, many different beautiful sites if you, you know if you think about them, Mount Baldhead still attracts people and just that hopefully that they can just continue to progress, in the, you know the, uh tourism and the friendliness, but you know, like I said it still can exert, or whatever you want to call it the, the uh meaning of being friendly and it, sometimes it all disappears now but we were always known as the “Village of Friendliness”. [Laughs] NN: Yes, yes, Douglas still tries to use that from time to time, right? That motto. Um, what do you think some of the greatest needs are that currently face the community? at this moment in time CVO: At this moment in time. Um, I'm really not sure, it, it because it varies from to time. Um, we they have so many things that they plan and so many things that they do. we have the socials, I attended a social here, just a while back. They had the, the parades, every memorial day is still a big day. come out, for the parade, yes.. and and uh, there, um, I, you know, just get a sense of pride just for the fact that you know it's still here after all these years. I don't know a lot of the people around me, I’ll go through the neighborhood going who lives there now, who lives there. but it, it is nice that it attracts uh, residents and they enjoy their children's going to the school and you know that life goes on and but it's going on very well. NN: okay. Alright. Um, remember, we said earlier that this interview will be safe for a long time and that's one of the wonderful things about the way that we're capturing these is we can be able to access them long into the future. If someone listens to this recording, fifty years in the future say, what would you most like them to know about your life? CVO: how much I enjoyed it, how much fun it was and how um living in a small town like this, you just knew everyone and you enjoyed day to day life it wasn't any kind of strife, you know. You know I mean everyone had their problems. But and if you did you would all join together if there was you know, a problem or something happens, someone um. I, I have a very tragic story if you want to hear it for a minute, but. I had uh, neighbors when I was in, um, growing up and when I was in sixth grade so I was 12 and the neighbors had six children and they didn't keep their house too well and the kids, you know, it, it was kind of. Their Dad drank, he worked but he, he drank a lot and the mom kind of, was kind of lackadaisical about where the, you know the kids went. You know, where are my kids? Well one day she went over to Saugatuck with some friends and her, the baby was 2, his name was Troy and he was a cutie but he was always wearing just like a T-shirt and diaper [pause] and the women, for some reason all went in the house at this place and somebody had a donkey. This is a true story, somebody had a donkey in this corral. NN: Okay �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 17 CVO: And so, one of, they left Troy out there instead of bringing in with them which I don't. [sighs] he was 2 and someone says ‘what’s the donkey got in it’s mouth?’ NN: Oh, no. CVO: And he had mauled, he picked Troy up the stomach, and Troy passed away the next day and the whole town was like, you know, back then agencies didn't get all involved, it was like well the kid died, you know but they really didn't go into, you know that I mean. NN: Right, it was a different era. CVO: Yes, big investigation or… NN: Right. CVO: it was a just tragedy. So they buried Troy and that was very sad, eight days later was our last day of sixth grade. Troy had a brother in my class named Howard, and his sister Jean was, was, my age but she was a year behind me and we were, Jean and I were very, very close and I remember walking home with Howard that day after, you know, last school and he was with his buddies and he's kind of laughing stuff that my girlfriends and I were doing. But I have, um, I had to go with my dad that day to Kalamazoo, of all places. We had to, he had business there and then we were picking up a graduation present for Kendall that guy I mentioned earlier. Kendall wass graduating from high school that night and we went to a jewelry store or something and we got Kendall a gift. When we got home mother was crying, shes waiting for the, us to get home, and my dad was, ‘what’s the matter?’ Howard drowned that afternoon he was fishing right near where the Keewatin eventually was… NN: Yeah CVO: And he had hip waiters on, and he was fishing with another kid and he got pulled under and he was only 13 and he died just 8 days after his little brother. So this whole community was, I mean everybody was those jars, you know to help, you know and it was, when I think back to it now, I go now they would have people investigating their, you know, the parents that, you know the this, the that, the home life, you know what I mean. But it was, it knocked you down. NN: well for a small town to have that tragedy twice… CVO: twice… NN: …a row. Uh, what was the last name? CVO: Edwards. NN: Edwards, okay. even as a young person I'm sure you could feel the sense of community in the tragedy that was happening, I would think. �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 18 CVO: well, to be there in the midst of it, like when after Troy died, I remember all us kids because I, like I said they had a lot of kids and there was Jean and Noel, and, and Howard and a little one named Sally and a older one named Ann, and Ann's boyfriend came over after, uh the afternoon after the baby had died, like a Saturday afternoon with a guitar and was trying to play and, you know, make us sing and trying to cheer us up and all that. To be with Jean through all that, now I look back and I think, oh my gosh, we were only twelve years old. I, I, you know you, Jean had said to me that second, when the second tragedy happened she was up at the store for her mother, she, she walked home, she went around the corner, she sees the state police at their house and she thinks, well now, now and when she got ,and she said as she went down the hill she thought, I hope it's not my precious Noel, that was her younger brother and when she got home [inaudible] so that was a very tragic time. NN: Absolutely, absolutely. Um, potentially on a happier note, are there are any other stories that I haven’t asked you about or places or people who, I mean, I'm sure there's so many things but are there or is anything else in your mind that you want to be sure to share with us? CVO: Well, it's like, I just, like when I go to town lots of time I go, that used to be, and they used to be there. which my son said, he's doing now, he's a fireman for, um Saugatuck and he has to deal a lot with the um, township. He, he, he goes to represent the fire department and he said he's feeling old now because he’ll go, this is to be, he's telling these people that are not familiar with the area and he's going, this is to here and that used to be there. Yeah, he and Mark Becken. I said Mark's got twenty some years on you, you know yet even Brent is now feeling like this is used to be here, this used to be there, that library, was, they opened it for wedding receptions and stuff I can remember it had a dance, where the library part is now, was the dance floor… NN: okay. CVO: …thing and down below was a basement where it like, I remember going to a big wedding reception there one night and the, the people were dancing up stairs and all that and then downstairs was your food and, and otherwise I don't ever remember being an Athletic building, which they said it was. NN: The Douglas Athletic Center or something for a while, right, I remember hearing that. Um, so your son Brent, you said he is, he is a firefighter. In Saugatuck? CVO: yes he is a, um, Captain. NN: okay, wonderful CVO: and currently he's down, he had a back injury. Fell off a ladder, imagine that [laughs] and he currently can’t, you know, work but he’s been on the fire department for many years and he just, you know he’s, he really likes it a lot. NN: Do you have any other kids? �Candace Van Oss Part 2- Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 19 CVO: yes I do. I have a son named Shannon, and Shannon is going to be 37. [Laughs] Brent’s going to be 45 in a couple of weeks. But, Shannon, uh, both boys started out, their father works, worked for years for the Public Works, he worked for 43 years for the Saugatuck Public Works so the kids start out their summer jobs working, both, at the public works and eventually they both, Brent first and Shannon later on for the Kalamazoo Lake and Sewer Authority. we work field technicians doing work for that for a long time and then press wanted to become a full time fire fighter and Shannon had enough of his water licenses you know you have to have these testing and spending water guy and public works guy he also said classes. we're just bothering here. so you know it's kinda funny how it worked out. the boys. you know place is my father and their father and it was kind of a tradition generation generation. so both of your kids are still close I there but yeah. okay. one was in Richmond. just this is a little ways should me inside or outside. okay. alright. and just for the record. their fathers name. this is me Blair. okay. his father was. I don't remember but it was rejected on the HTC. was talking to challenges and this is. staff. bye. okay. so if you used to be the mayor of Florida Tech. used to go. when Brent and his cousins were born to do your part. okay. your let sister and I had our babies up at the community. she was me. start time. my dad was in touch. okay. that would have been in the early seven early seventies. okay. small town like you said the whole time. yeah. yeah. wonderful. I was there anything else that we didn't discuss. no I'm not really. bye Campbell if this is not some people. well I think one of the most important things about this project. is that we are really trying to capture what everyday life with money and people may say I didn't do anything special or unique but it's still web stories that all come together about how this family relates to that when these people went to school together and you know and that's the fabric that in fifty years or even five euros will be able to look over and stitch that together and that's why why. we are very excited to see the storage summer project. talking about summer and all year round. so yeah. so on campus. thank you so much for sharing your time and sharing your memories with me. this will conclude our interview � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-VanOssC-20180721_p2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Van Oss, Candace Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Candace Van Oss (Audio interview and transcript, Part 2 of 2), 2018 Description An account of the resource Candace Van Oss grew up in Douglas. She shares many memories of her father's career as Chief of Police. In the second part of the interivew, Candace continues with stories of her father's career as Fire Chief and later Saugatuck Township Supervisor. Her interview also includes a detailed descrition of the 1968 Rock Festival held in Douglas, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neitering, Nathan (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Parks Outdoor recreation Music festivals Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa1ac36851f01ab0cc52addb1c6e1d55.mp3 4ff24cb2ae621f88dc5959ca4c94f31a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72b05b18043aaf63c8f5a071a33152b6.pdf bebb6e8c4b8b1e0108ad8f6676febbc4 PDF Text Text Candace Van Oss - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 1 Nathan Neitering: This is Nathan Neitering, and I’m here today with Candace Van Oss at the old schoolhouse in Douglas, Michigan on July 21st 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today, I am interested to learn more about your family history, your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please share with me your full name and how to spell it? Candace Van Oss: My full name is Candace C A N D A C E Caye C A Y E and my maiden name is Cartwright C A R T W R I G H T NN: Okay, um and in your last name do you have a space? [Pause] I’m sorry between Van and Oss? CVO: Just, yeah. NN: Yeah, you do. Okay. V A N space O S S CVO: Yes. NN: Very good, um, so tell me a little bit about where you grew up. CVO: I grew up just down the street, on, um, it would be Chestnut and Main. My mother's, had a family home there that she was born, and my father and, when she and my father got married in 1948. They um, converted it into apartments because it was a big bed and breakfast at one time that my great grandmother had run. It was called the Fort Snelling [Laughs] and they, it had like seven bedrooms I guess, and you know, big house, and my father and mother converted it into two upper apartments and to two lower apartments and my mom's brother and his wife occupied one of the downstairs apartments. My Mom and Dad occupied the big upstairs apartment and then they each rented out, you know. And I was born at Kirby House in Douglas and uh, um I said the house went way way back to my mother’s father’s family and um, we we lived there until I was about seven or eight and my father had purchased the property adjoining it because the Catholic Church used to be across the street from that. The Catholic Church moved up here and my father got first dibs on the property where he built our house, our, you know a new house… NN: Right. CVO: …and his shop. He had a plumbing and electrical business and so, oh, we had, and he took a year, I mean it was just he had uh, different contractors friends you know like the painter, and the floor and the, you know the all different, the roofer you know, and since he did the plumbing and electric and all these other people came in, so took like a year, all together. But then one day we just moved across the lawn. NN: What was the address of that house? �Candace Van Oss - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 2 CVO: Um, the um, big house was 11 Chestnut Street. NN: Okay, okay, um and so what were your parents’ names? CVO: Marjorie M A R J O R I E, her maiden name was Fisch F I S C H. NN: Okay. CVO: And my father’s name was Ralph R A L P H Cartwright. NN: Okay, alright, and um, what year were you born in? CVO: 1953 NN: Okay, alright, and you said that uh, when the Catholic Church moved from sort of downtown Douglas by the waterfront over to the Blue Star. That’s when your family acquired the land next door. Okay, alright. Just clarifying for the record. What’s a vivid memory that you remember from your childhood? Either back at the big house or the new house or both? CVO: [Laughs] The uh, biggest things was remembering that Dad was the Chief of Police. NN: Ah! CVO: And it was a time when you used your own phone, you didn't have a, you know private, you know what I mean, you used your home phone. He had a little, um, light, you know to put when he was, you know when he… NN: To put on his car? CVO: Yes, it went on his car and he had to use his own car. NN: Oh. CVO: And his job mostly just required summer. You know that's when he patrolled more weekends of course Saturday night, especially. We used to have down at the tennis courts in Douglas, every Saturday night they had square dancing believe it or not. This, uh group of square dancers from, around South Haven or something that would come every Saturday night and um, all the you know, adults and all the kids would go up to the square dances because it was like the Saturday night and at one point when they have a little rest because they had a band and a caller and then the square dancers, you know, and when they would rest, uh, then the band would, the announcer, whatever you want to call, the caller would announce the Mexican hat dance because all us kids would go and form a circle and you know, do the, [Mimics “Jarabe Tapatío”] every, every week. But that was a big thing, you know? And um, my Dad would have his, he’d be off uh, in his uniform you know, patrolling and it, it uh, took him to, he had to patrol the lakeshore of course, in Douglas and patrol here and if Saugatuck needed an assist with �Candace Van Oss - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 3 something, which they did quite often, um, he, you know had to go to that and uh he did this for a long time. NN: Okay, yeah, I was going to ask do you remember how many years he was the Chief of Police? CVO: From about 1950 to about 1963. NN: Okay, alright. CVO: And then he wanted to um, you know, it was getting a little more complicated of course by that time and they made him Fire Chief [laughs] His uh, you know, Leader, his Leadership. NN: He was moving from one branch of the force to another, huh? CVO: Yes. NN: And so how long was he the Fire Chief then? CVO: Um, my son who is a fireman now, um, we were trying to think back. I think about ten years. NN: Okay. CVO: Maybe. NN: Alright. CVO: But, um, that was, wasn’t. We also had a, a, emergency phone though by that time, to the fire department and we also had a wall switch our on wall, you know it was just a regular, that, that uh, alarm put on the Fire siren which was located up at the ball park. NN: So was that ever tempting as a child? CVO: Oh yes! NN: As a child to hit the switch and sound the alarm? CVO: I put a, I put a note on it because we did, you know, you had people come over and just think it was just… NN: Just a light switch? CVO: Yeah! We never, we never tripped it up accidently. NN: Okay. �Candace Van Oss - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering July 21 2018 4 CVO: Luckily, but, you know, it was, if my mother had to do it, it was a scream because she would just kind of [imitates siren sound] you know. [NN laughs] CVO: But, that that's another vivid memory is, you know the phone ringing and then immediately you know, we’re turning on the siren. NN: So if the phone, if someone called you to say there is a fire, then it was whoever was in the houses’ responsibility to start the, sound the alarm even if your father was not at home at the time? CVO: Yeah, yeah. NN: Okay, alright. CVO: And then the Fire barn just used to be down below the Village Hall here. NN: Yes in the back of the [inaudible] right? CVO: Yes, it only held like 1 truck [laughs] you, you had to sort duck to even get in but that was where the fire barn was at that time. NN: Okay, alright. Do you remember how many fire? [00:08:41] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-VanOssC-20180721_p1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Van Oss, Candace Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Candace Van Oss (Audio interview and transcript, Part 1 of 2), 2018 Description An account of the resource Candace Van Oss grew up in Douglas, Michigan. She shares many memories of her father's career as Chief of Police. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neitering, Nathan (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Fire departments Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1ee7f44c17926747e1aac301ff87af7.mp3 8fc5e30273a8c1c62b390ef00d42c5f9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02ad986e53107d656bf905f9f8531635.pdf 0db7e702e4aefb3a87c500813a9cb7a0 PDF Text Text Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 1 Paola Onesto: Yeah, hi Renee. Uh, I, uh, you said you’d call back in about half hour. Renee Zita: Oh! I’m sorry, okay well I have, is it good right now? Paola Onesto: Yeah, I can talk with you at this time. RZ: Okay, this, I have um, David Geen on the line as well, he’s the gentleman who’s going to ask you some questions… PO: Okay. RZ: …About Saugatuck. PO: What is his name? RZ: David. David Geen: David, David Geen. PO: Gene? How do I spell it? DG: Geen. G E E N. PO: G E E N, okay. David Geen. DG: That’s right and I’m here, I’m here with you, Paola Onesto? PO: That is correct. DG: Okay, and you’re on the phone here from the, from the old schoolhouse in Douglas and today is June 6th 2018, and this oral, this oral, I have to read this for us, this oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for Humanities Common Heritage Program. So, I’m so glad to talk with you today, Renee told me that we, we had to have you as part of our program. So, so, I’m just interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer here in the Saugatuck and Douglas area. So, but first I want you to tell me, how do you spell your last name? PO: My last name is spelled O N E S T O. DG: Okay. PO: First name is, my first name I spell P A O L A but I pronounce it Paula. DG: Okay. Like the Italian way, Paola? �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 2 PO: That’s right. DG: That’s right. PO: Well you know the era in which I as born, um, I have to assume that ethnicity was not something that wanted to be encouraged, uh, everybody had to become Americanized. DG: Hm, interesting. PO: And uh, so my mother gave me the Italian spelling, but she gave me the English pronunciation. DG: Okay, so your mother, your mother was? [Pause] Who was your mother? PO: Oh! [Laughs] Alright, my mother and father uh, my mother’s name is uh, Vacco V a c c o. DG: Mhm. PO: First name is Irene, I R E N E. DG: [Speaking over PO] Oh yeah. Okay. PO: and my father’s first name was James. DG: Okay. PO: We called him, he was called Jim. DG: So, did you grow up in Chicago? PO: Oh yeah, on the west side of Chicago in the Austen area. DG: Okay, and you’d come to Saugatuck in the summer? PO: Yes we did. Mhm, ever summer. DG: When did you start coming? Do you remember what year sort of that was? PO: Well, I’ll give you some of the history that I am aware of, uh, I know that my parents had come up here probably in the late 1920’s early 1930’s. DG: Wow. PO: and uh, they, my mother and father and my mother’s sister Anna, and her husband John decided they wanted to buy a piece, they wanted to uh, buy a piece of property and come up there for the summers and uh, so she, my mother had told me, now this is oral history. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 3 DG: Yep. PO: Obviously. Uh, and my mother had told me that uh, they bought a home on the, uh, [inaudible] side of the, of Saugatuck. On the western shore. DG: Yes. PO: And, and, um, she said that she, they had a small it was a small cottage um, and she said it was filthy and she and her sister worked a good part of the summer trying to get the place just habitable. In any event, while they working on it a lady approached them, a woman came down and she said her name was Hannah Mueller. DG: Okay. PO: She’s important because she owned a lot of property here at Saugatuck, and she said “Instead of trying to fix that place up”, she said “Why don’t you buy your own property and then build a place that you would like?” DG: Okay. PO: And that’s exactly what they did do. They bought the location where our cottage is now situated and uh, they had the cottage built. Now I do know that the cottage was built in 1931. DG: 1931, was the cottage. PO: Yes. RZ: [Whispering] What’s the address? DG: What’s the, do you remember the address of that cottage? PO: At that time? DG: Yeah. PO: Uh, I don’t even think they had addresses. DG: But it was on Park Street. RZ: What is the address? [00:05:00] PO: It was, it was, it had several different names. One time it was Ferry Street, one time it was Park Street, so uh, what we, since we never got mail delivered there we always went to the Post Office to get �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 4 our mail, and my mother I remember we had a Post Office Box, and we would get the mail, you’d have to pay for it for the season of course, and we would get, go there to pick up our mail and eventually uh, we didn’t even bother doing that because we’re no longer getting a lot of mail, and we would go directly to the window and we’d ask for, if there was any named, if there was any mail for the Vacco’s, that was, and I was one of the kids that had to do that. RZ: Well what’s the address now, Aunt Paola? PO: Uh, 856. RZ: 856, Okay. PO: Park. DG: Okay, so in the ‘20s and 30s would your parents drive around from Chicago? They drove up here? PO: They were driven up here. My, neither of my parent drove, they didn’t, they never knew how to drive a car. They were always driven up here. DG: [Speaking over PO] So they had a driver. PO: I’m sorry? DG: They had a driver. PO: Right. We’d always have someone drive us up, and it usually was a relative. DG: Okay. How did, do you know how they found to come to Saugatuck? PO: That I can’t be sure of, I, I do know a couple of names uh, but I’m not, I’m not really sure how they were introduced to the area. RZ: I thought it was through Uncle Aldo’s um, symphony friend? PO: Yeah, his name was Robert Mcdolum, McDonald, Robert McDonald was a concert pianist, my uncle was a concert violinist and uh, through them, my uncle, uh, was the one that came up and he probably had my parents come as well as his other sister, Anna and uh, um, but see that is a history I really really do not know anything about. But I do, I have some pictures, oh god where are they, uh, I have some pictures of them sitting on the um, embankment that was in front of our cottage. DG: Hm. RZ: [Whispering] that’d be interesting. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 5 PO: Now the people who, our next store neighbors was a man by the name of Kasparik, I can’t remember for sure if [inaudible] I know he’s in the historical book because I’ve seen his picture in that. DG: What’s his last name? RZ: Kasparik. PO: Kasparik. K A S P A R I K, I believe. And he was a bachelor and he lived there with his sister, uh, uh, uh, her last name was Romaine but she was married and a widow. Uh, and I think it was R O M A I N E, romaine, this is romaine and they had that gazeebo, which is still in existence, if you take a walk down that way. They, they would spend the summer nights sitting there and uh, enjoying the fresh air and I would go down, go down because there are 42 steps to our cottage, if you’ve seen it. DG: Okay. PO: And uh, as a child I would go down and I would visit them, we would sit there and talk. DG: So when you were coming up in the, in the, the I guess 30s and 40s and all that? PO: Oh yes. DG: What was the, what did you, what was your day like, uh when you came up during the summer for that? PO: Well, this is, these are my brief memories okay because can’t think, have a continuity with it. I know it was born, it was built in 1931 because that was year I was born. DG: Okay. PO: And, um, the, I also know that my uncle John, because he was the only one who could drive. When they decided to by the property, he came and put down a, what do they call it, earnest money? DG: Yes. PO: He came and he spoke with Hannah Mueller and put down earnest money and the amount of earnest money he put down, can you think of how much it would cost to buy that piece of property? DG: I don’t know. PO: Any idea? [Laughs] He put down $1. DG: $1! PO: [Laughing] $1! �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 6 DG: Oh my gosh, as earnest money. PO: $1 secured the property. RZ: Didn’t Hannah Mueller own all the lots, that the um…. PO: She owned most of that property, yes. RZ: All along there. Okay. DG: All along Park Street. RZ: So she owned where the Browns cottage was, and the Diffenderfers, and…. PO: Correct, what they, well, no, in their case, they originally came down and they would pitch a tent, in the area of Mount Baldhead. [00:10:04] DG: Oh. PO: and they, they did that for several years. Now not my parents, but uh, our neighbors and eventually they bought the property and had the cottage built, the Diffenderfer cottage and the Pilkington’s cottage. DG: So what do you remember doing when you came here in the summers when you were younger? As a kid? PO: Oh well, when, well when I was a kid, uh, I, I marvel at this because uh, my mother would rent a row boat, I can’t, for the season. DG: A rowboat? PO: And my brother and I would go out in the rowboat and we’d row across the river and we’d go into town. DG: Mhm. PO: And, well that when we were older, of course. DG: Yeah. PO: And uh, we would rent bicycles and we’d go bike riding around the area. DG: Oh! Okay. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 7 PO: That was one of the things we did. DG: Mhm. PO: Uh, the other things was that uh, we had a potbellied stove to keep, for, for heat! DG: Okay. PO: And, uh, we had to supply the wood. By we, I mean my brother [inaudible] and I, and we would go out into woods and we’d look for a deadfall. We’d find a tree that we could carry back to the cottage. DG: Oh god. PO: Then we’d have to put it on the horses, wooden horses and we’d have to saw it into the right size plank, lengths so that it would fit into this potbellied stove. After you did all of this, you would make, make sure you had to have it stacked and piled up in a, in a certain place. DG: Okay. PO: So that they had easy access to it. So, we did that. DG: Did you go to the beach? PO: Yeah, we did, um, but not every day at that time, not early on, let’s put it that way. Uh, and it was a, I can remember uh, I can remember walking on a dirt road where it’s just now, where they have the Oval, the road to the Oval Beach. DG: Oh yes. PO: And I can remember walking down the road and I remember resenting, my sister, who was, who was able to get a ride in a, in a, in a little cart that was called a, what the heck was the name, [inaudible] but it was a little, a sulky. It was called a sulky and it wasn’t pushed it was pulled. DG: By a person? Or by a horse? PO: By a person. DG: Oh! RZ: Up to the beach. PO: It was just, it was just big enough for a child and Anna, my sister, got a chance to ride it, but because of the distance was so long and it was not convenient because it was a dirt road, and it was not easy to travel, uh, we did not go every day. That I do remember. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 8 RZ: Didn’t you do the, um, the Red Barn Playhouse, Aunt Paola? PO: I’m sorry? RZ: Didn’t you participate in the Red Barn Playhouse? PO: Oh yeah, but that was much later I was in my teens, I was was in maybe 17, 18 years old when they, when the Red Barn was erected, or was bought I don’t know, I, or rented, I don’t know whether it, how it started and, uh, became a theater, and uh, I tried out for a part and I got it and then, uh, for several years during the summer I would come up to Michigan and I would participate in the plays. DG: Oh! That sounds fun. PO: It was, it was, it was a great, thing for me because it, I had, I got to meet the people in the theatre and find out what type of people they were and uh, and also it gave me a big opportunity to be involved in something I enjoy doing. DG: Mhm, did you go out to eat in Saugatuck? PO: Very rarely. DG: Rarely. PO: My mother did all the cooking and the washing, initially we did have hot water. DG: Oh. PO: At the cottage. There was no hot water and I have memories of my mother putting big pots of water on top of the cook stove, kitchen stove, and um getting it boiling and then throw it into the bathtub. DG: Oh. PO: Well of course by the time the water got into a cold bathtub it was none too warm by this time but we bathed in a very small amount of water and uh, that’s what that was done until much later um, but I can’t, I cannot tell you an exact date when we got a hot water heater, um. DG: How long did you come up for? Did you come up for two weeks, or a month, or the whole summer? PO: The whole summer. [00:15:00] DG: Well where did you get food? Was the grocery store here? �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 9 PO: Oh yeah, there were two grocery stores in town, and we rode, as I said my brother and I would row across the river. We would dock at some point wherever we could find a place to tie up the boat and then we would walk into town and uh, we were given chores to do uh, at, if weren’t, ah, one of the things I told you I think I mentioned that we would rent bicycles but afterwards we were given chores to do and one of them was to go grocery shopping and then we would walk back to where the boat was and put all the grocery’s in the boat and row back up. DG: What was name of the store, do you remember? PO: No I’m sorry, I do not. DG: But it was in Saugatuck, the grocery store. PO: It was in Saugatuck and where, where they have um, oh god what is it, my, you’ll have to excuse my memory. DG: That’s okay. PO: Where we, where we get the sandwiches on the corner of main street there? DG: Oh. PO: Ask Renee, Renee would help me with this, where we get the cinnamon rolls and the…. DG and RZ: Pumpernickels! RZ: Pumpernickels? PO: I’m sorry? RZ: Pumpernickels? It use be like a candy store before that? PO: That was a grocery store. DG: Oh! Okay. PO: It was one the grocery stores. We also had, in Saugatuck um, right across the road on the river side there was a small store that also was a place for these, the family [inaudible] lived. It was a large family, by that, by that I mean they had many children. DG: Yeah. PO: and they had basic groceries there and uh, again that was within walking distance and this was directly opposite where your mother’s cottage was Renee. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 10 RZ: Oh the Ferry Store. PO: The Ferry Store. DG: You never took the chain ferry across? You always rowed your own boat? PO: Uh, at that time, yeah, we always used our own boat. DG: Okay, did you ever do anything at Oxbow? What was going on there since you were at Park Street, it was kind of close? Wasn’t it? PO: Yes, no, I never got involved down there. DG: Never did anything there. PO: NO, because we were, you have to understand that with a cottage vacation you have a lot of visitors, I mean, everyone would come up and uh, the, and they would bring children! And we had all of our cousins would be there, we’d be climbing Mount Baldhead and we, we’d be hiking through the woods, and it was all outside activities. DG: There were steps going up to Mount Baldhead at the time? PO: For me, yeah. DG: Always steps. PO: Yeah, mhm. DG. Yeah. RZ: Do you remember when the radar tower was built? PO: I don’t recall, I’m thinking it had to be in the war years. DG: In the 50s. PO: 40s. DG: 40s. PO: I’m guessing, now this is a sheer guess. Only because of the necessity to have some, uh, something there to protect us I guess. If there as a, if there was an attack of some kind I, I mean, I was a kid. DG: Yeah, you’re not, yeah. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 11 PO: So I, I, I really didn’t pay any attention to it but I think it was built in that era. I can’t be sure, so I, I’m just, my memories of seeing it, that is all l can give you. DG: So when you got a little older and you had your own children, what did you do with them? PO: Same thing, pretty much. We, well now of course we’re driving so were going to other towns and visiting and uh, uh, we, and basically when the children were little, they loved going to the beach so that’s what we did, we went to the beach. We carried all the paraphernalia of toys and this and that and the other thing down there and uh, uh, um, we hiked, we walked constantly to the old harbor, uh, we we often would go to the old harbor because uh, we knew the way there and it was sort of um, an escape from the crowd of people that would be at the Oval Beach. It was not always called the Oval Beach, I don’t think that came until, um, maybe the 50s. I’m not sure when they called it that, it was always a dirt road and then eventually obviously it was paved. DG: Where’s the old harbor? PO: You don’t know where the old harbor is? DG: No. RZ: You don’t? It’s the old harbor that the boats used to come in on. DG: Oh! RZ: Where Oxbow is. DG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s where you’d go, that was the river though right? RZ: Yeah, well. PO: Well, what it was is it originally it had been a um, lumbering town. DG: That’s right. PO: And then the sands shifted, the water shifted, and it became closed off, it was, you could not travel the, I guess the…. [00:20:09] DG: Oh. PO: …boats would come in and go up the river via that channel but it when the water got so shallow, obviously. DG: Yes. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 12 PO: That was no longer, they were no longer able to use it, and however the water was warm. DG: Okay. PO: It was always fresh. So, I mean Lake Michigan you could always rely on and uh, um we would love to go there to swim…. DG: Okay. PO: …because the water was nice and warm…. DG: Warmer. PO: …and again we had a, again it as very private and not too many people were aware of it…. DG: Oh, okay. PO: …and let’s see. DG: That’s the oxbow lagoon, sort of now. PO: That’s probably what they call it now, yes. DG: Oh! Did you go out, did you, when, did you go to the Old Crow? No. PO: Oh yeah, um, for, for dinners or going, if you wanted to go out for an evening when we were older, yes. Um, but our children made good use of the Old Crow, you can ask Renee about that. RZ: Yeah. PO: They would, they would uh, they got to know all the bouncers there. DG: That’s right. . RZ: Especially your daughter, Irene. [Laughs] Kevin! Kevin Mariani that was his name. PO: I’m sorry, Renee? RZ: The boy that Irene liked, Kevin Mariani or something, right? PO: I don’t know, I can’t, I can’t remember their names. All you kids had a slew of boys following you around and my husband was on guard duty all the time, he made sure that they behaved themselves. DG: That’s right. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 13 PO: Because, uh, he, one night he threw them out of the house [Laughs] and uh, because they came up around 11 o’clock at night. DG: Oh. PO: Do you remember this, Renee? RZ: No. PO: No, well. They came up to the cottage about 11 o’clock at night and uh, one of them, I can’t, there was about four of them and one of them came in with no shirt on, but what people now call a dago tee I think. DG: Yeah. PO: And and a can of beer, an open can of beer. DG: Oh. PO: And uh, my father, my father. My husband took one look at them and he knew them! DG: Oh! PO: Because they’d been around before and he said, “You, you, you get the hell out of here!” he said “If you come calling, you come at a reasonable hour and you don’t come dressed like that!” DG: Oh my gosh. PO: and he, so now we have tears. All the girls are crying. DG: Oh, they’re all crying. PO: [imitating the crying] “Oh, but, we won’t show ourselves on the beach anymore”. RZ: [Laughs] PO: [More crying noises] …. Harold says “forget out it”. DG: Oh my gosh. PO: So the next day, they, we were on the beach, I wasn’t but Harold was and he said uh, one of the young men came up to him and he said, “Mr. Onesto I want to apologize for last night” he said, “These people don’t understand about Italian families.” [Laughs] DG: Oh. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 14 RZ: [Laughs] PO: He says, [inaudible] He didn’t add that but he said, “I want to apologize, we should not have done that.” And uh he says, “You’re welcome at any time but come at a decent hour, and dress right.” DG: Oh my gosh, yeah. RZ: But now where did, when you were younger, you went dancing at the big pavilion, correct? PO: Yes. Yes. The pavilion was at that time, oh! That was the other thing, at night my sister and I would, my mother would give us a quarter and we would have to take the ferry to get into town because she wouldn’t allow us to row the boat at night and uh, we would, because every night they changed the movie. So there was a new movie every night and of course, when you were in the movies they would show a preview of the coming features, so we wanted to go there, so we pretty much ended up going to town every night and uh, Anna and I, and to, to watch a movie. Came out and it was still light. DG: Oh. PO: Wasn’t really, wasn’t dark. But you go to a 6 o’clock movie, but in the movie you got to see the feature, you got to see the news, you got to see a cartoon and uh, of course the previews of the coming features. RZ: Did you ever go dancing there? PO: Yeah, when, when I got older that was not when we were little, when we were in our probably our elementary school years. DG: Oh, so when you were little the movie started at 6:00. PO: Yeah. DG: And got done at like, 8:00 or something…. PO: Like 8:00. DG: And then the dancing was after that. PO: Uh, the dancing was always there. This, this pavilion was a huge facility. DG: Okay. PO: Uh, they had, just the area for the movies. DG: Oh. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 15 PO: …and then there was this huge hall, at least it looked very huge to me, and it was in an oval shape. Well it, it was rectangular actually but they had it fixed so that you, that couples would dance around. Now I can tell you this, my mother said that originally, they’re dancing in formals, gowns. [00:25:15] DG: Oh. PO: Then during the war years, it changed, and they were skirts. DG: Okay. PO: and then later on, I guess it got even more casual because they tried to go with slacks, and then shorts and they, they had a full orchestra at the beginning, I can remember that, and you had to pay 10 cents to dance. DG: Oh. PO: There’s that, there was a song called 10 cents a dance but that’s, that was for something else. Uh, but you, so if you paid 10 cents you could dance with your partner, and you would be, that would give you probably enough time to go around twice. DG: Oh. PO: You do the perimeter, say you were going around the perimeter, you would have an opportunity to get at least two dances in before you had to pay another 10 cents. DG: How fun. PO: Yeah, it was! RZ: Was there ever anyone that you were ever sweet on? That lived here? PO: No. RZ: No? PO: No. Not till I was older of course. RZ: But mom, my mom was sweet on, um, who was that? Norm Deen? PO: Norm Deen was one, he was a nice kid. He’s, I don’t know, is he still living in the area? RZ: Yeah, yeah. He is. Yes. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 16 PO: And I know I haven’t seen him in a couple of years, but then I haven’t been up there myself. But he would always ask about the family, about your mother and the uh, oh let’s see, boyfriends? I, I had a crush on a boy that was also a summer visitor and uh, he lives, he didn’t live in Saugatuck, he lived in this sort of a, off of Campbell, you know? The area, on the, where, the lakeshore, lakeshore. He lived along the lakeshore. RZ: Okay. PO: And uh, he was from West Point. DG: West Point! PO: Yeah, uh huh. We went to the military school. DG: Oh! PO: and uh, so I saw him, maybe four times. [Laughs] DG: Oh yeah? PO: And I, I, I, I, I had a crush on him. I don’t know why, how this, these things happen, but they did. He was very nice to me and we had a good time, uh, again, he could drive, and we go to Holland to see a movie. Holland was very very strict at that time. They uh, would not allow movies to be shown on Sundays. DG: Oh. PO: And uh, dancing was forbidden, so naturally, the kids got into trouble. RZ: So they all came down to Saugatuck, right? PO: Mhm, they found a way. There’s always, where there’s a will there’s a way. DG: Oh gosh, yeah. They couldn’t dance in Holland so they came to Saugatuck. RZ: They could Dutch dance. [Laughs] Okay, well that’s great. DG: Wow. Did boats, boats used to come into Saugatuck and bring people over right? PO: I’m sorry, would you repeat that? DG: Steam boats used to come into Saugatuck? PO: Oh yeah, yeah. We would, uh, the um, the Keewatin I can remember it going up the river when it came in it was a big to-do. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 17 DG: It’s big. PO: Everybody was standing on the embankment of their, if they had one, or going over to Mount Baldhead where you could get down close to the river front and uh, because that was public property and uh, we were, we would stand, well we were fortunate we could stand on our porch and just watch this thing steam up the river. So we watch it go up, and we watched it sail down. It was an event. DG: That’s fun. PO: That was about 40 years, I’d say. It was there a long time. DG: Yeah. Well I think that’s about everything. PO: Ah, I’m glad I was able to help you David. DG: Oh no, you’re wonderful. PO: So then, as I said, some of the things I know happened that I can’t put pin point a date. RZ: So I was going to share um, one of the pictures of you and mom on the beach, they’re going to put it in a book, is that okay with you Aunt Paola? PO: Oh sure. Oh sure. RZ: Okay, alright. PO: I have a, did, did, did you see the picture of my mother, your mother and our two, my two brothers and myself on the beach? [00:30:01] RZ: Oh yeah, I know, I know that one. PO: You know that one? That’s a great shot. RZ: Unless you have a better copy, and um you can scan it and send it to me that would be a wonderful shot. PO: Okay, I, I will try to do that, yeah. Unfortunately, the picture I have your mother is cut in half and I don’t know why that happened but that’s the way the picture was dissolved and uh, and she was, she was sitting on the back of Aunt Tina. RZ: There’s another one I have of you guys all at the beach, I have to look through the, the photos, but. PO: Okay, I’ll see if Harold can…. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 18 RZ: You know they’ll also take what they’re doing here complimentary is like all of Uncle Harold’s slides of Saugatuck, they would put them in a digitable, digital format. PO: Oh! Okay. RZ: So if, when you come back up here if you bring all those slides, they will, they will take them, right? DG: I think so, yeah. RZ: I think that’s what they’re doing. They’ll take the slides and put them in a, a, on a disc for you. PO: Okay. Oh that would be lovely. RZ: The ones he hasn’t done, because I know he’s done. PO: I’m not sure if he hasn’t got to that himself but uh, yeah, this, this would be uh, quite a, oh you know where we also went? Goshorn Lake! RZ: Goshorn Lake? DG: Oh, yeah. You went up there. RZ: When the flies weren’t biting. PO: We spent a lot time at Goshorn Lake, we didn’t always go to Lake Michigan, again the water was warmer…. DG: Yeah. PO: …uh, and uh, but it was more dangerous. It was extremely dangerous and uh, because it goes down at a 45 degree angle. DG: It’s deep, yeah. PO: and uh, and I, and the thing is we had all of these children, there was 5 of the Rinaldi’s, there was 4 of us, uh and uh, well and Richard went, my older brother was 10 years older than I so he didn’t hang around with us at all. DG: Mhm. PO: Um, but uh, I remember Vicky this, this scared the heck out of me. Am I, am I giving you, wasting too much of your time? DG: No, it’s good. PO: Um, we were sitting at a, a, you couldn’t lie flat because it was at this steep…. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 19 DG: Steep. PO: …decent into the water. But it was alright, and I, I was always on guard duty and I didn’t look for people, I counted head. I was always counting heads, counting heads, and I looked and here’s Vicky, must have been a toddler or I would say 4 or 5 years old and she’s in the water and she’s struggling because the water is over her nose. DG: Oh. PO: Now she’s standing but she’s probably, she’s probably standing on her toes, trying to get a, a, trying to get, grip the sand so that she can get out of the water and I have to tell you David, it was, so surreal for me because I’m thinking, I’m thinking that I’m moving in slow motion. I couldn’t get there fast enough and I’m thinking to myself, ”She can’t breathe, the water is over her nose, I’ve got to get to her” and as in a movie, or a scene on television I wasn’t able to move, I was going so slowly to get her, and I got her of course, I pulled her out of the water but she could’ve drowned in that water and we were all there! We were all there! And it was, it was, an adult could stand there but a child couldn’t. So that was, that scared the heck out of me, and so for sure I never, I never, when we went I never, uh, I never laid out. I patrolled the beach constantly, I wanted to make sure all the kids were okay. DG: Okay, yeah. PO: So, but I, she, she scared me and, and, and it was the most eerie feeling. Still feel it today telling you the story, how I wanted to get to her but I couldn’t get any traction with my feet and I couldn’t get there, and it, it was terribly terribly terribly frightening for me. DG: Hm, well you saved her. PO: I saved her. Thank god. DG: Good. Good. PO: But she’s still running around. DG: She’s still running around. PO: She’s got a beautiful I understand, on the lake. DG: Yes she does. Yep. PO: So. RZ: Okay, well thank you for your time Aunt Paola. DG: Yes! Thank you. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 20 PO: Oh honey I don’t mind, I enjoy talking to, I, probably other ideas will pop up in my head. Like I just thought of Goshorn Lake, we spent a lot of time there. DG: Yeah, no this is great. RZ: And remember to mention if those slides you want, they, they’ll take them and put them in the digital format, so, if you want to bring them up next time you come. PO: Okay, I’ll tell Harold, now that’s his domain. RZ: Alright. [00:35:01] DG: Okay. RZ: Tell him Renee asked him to. Okay. PO: Okay, I shall. RZ: He doesn’t have to do them, he just needs to bring them here. PO: Okay, and do you want some strawberry pop? RZ: And strawberry pop, that’s right. [Laughs] Okay. That’s an inside joke. PO: Renee she liked strawberry pop and Harold always brought her a bottle of strawberry pop. DG: That’s fun. RZ: That’s right. DG: Oh gosh. RZ: Alright Aunt Paola. DG: Well thank you. PO: Oh, you know one other thing what we did in the cottage? RZ: What’s that? PO: You want me to keep you on the line longer? RZ: Just, another minute, go on, tell us the story. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 21 PO: Okay, on, in Saugatuck remember we have no ceilings, over our bedrooms. RZ: Yeah, we had no ceilings in our cottage. DG: Okay. PO: The way the cottage is built. RZ: A loft. PO: The roof is our ceiling. But the roof only has walls, they don’t have any ceilings. DG: Oh. PO: So as kids we would get into pillow fights. DG: Oh. PO: We would throw the pillows back and forth over the walls. RZ: The rafters. DG: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s fun. PO: So, we, until my mother couldn’t stand it anymore and that was the end of that but really that uh, that was one of the fun things that we would do, crazy things like that. DG: Yeah! PO: And uh, but uh, for me they’re great memories. DG: That’s great. PO: Glad I got to share them with the kids. Anyhow David, I hope this gives you information…. DG: No, you’ve, wonderful things, I’m sure it will be great to have. RZ: Alright Aunt Paola, thank you! DG: Thank you. PO: You’re welcome sweetheart, and uh, I hope to see you up, when we get back. RZ: Yeah! Okay. PO: I can’t tell when, because we see a lot of doctors you know. �Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita June 6 2018 RZ: Okay. PO: Okay honey. DG: Okay, thank you! RZ: Alright, love you! Buh-bye. DG: Uh huh, bye. PO: And nice talking to you David. DG: Same here. PO: You’re welcome. 22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-OnestoP-20180606 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Onesto, Paola Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-06 Title A name given to the resource Paola Onesto (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Paola Onesto was raised in Chicago. Her family was among the first to buy land and build lakeshore summer cottages in Saugatuck. Her family home was completed in 1921, and Paola recounts generations of family members spending their summers on the lakeshore. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Geen, David (Interviewer) Zita, Renee (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Italian Americans Dance halls Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f060fea6bd5068c6fa31d7765f43c0a.mp3 8f4367ac48a9054e2ea64d57250e6436 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d0686f32d7e22da4c5aba91b6b0d336.pdf 53ca9bf9ae2595c9d6dcbda509ff82ef PDF Text Text Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 1 Ken Kutzel: This is Ken Kutzel and Katelyn... Katelyn Bosch: Bosch. KK: Katelyn Bosch, and were here today to, uh, with, uh, Bob Lord, uh at the old school house in Saugatuck, I’m sorry in Douglas Michigan, and let’s see today is June 4th, uh 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank, uh, Bob, thanks for talking with us today and were interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglass area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it? Bob Lord: [Laughs] Well, nobody calls me Robert but that’s what it is. Robert William Lord. L O R D. Then just call me Bob. KK: Okay, and um, do you – oh you don’t use any accents or anything so, tell us about where you grew up. BL: Well I grew up in Charlotte, which is hometown, center part of the state, uh, I was, I was born there 1945, and uh, and that was hometown until 1976. I graduated high school there and I was tool and die maker there for a number of years, and then I went into Field Sales Engineering and from there in ’76 I migrated to the Holland area and went to work for Bone Aluminum as a Field Sales Engineer and uh, consequently that drew me to this side of the state. Um, my wife and I ended up in 1978 purchased a property in Saugatuck on the corner of Holland and Lucy Street, and the property had no gas, meters had been pulled, the electric meters on both houses had been pulled and the water meter had been, the water had been shut off. And I say both houses because there is a Singapore house on that property. The main house uh, was about 2400 square feet and the Singapore house was probably 820, 840 something like that. KK: Singapore house would mean it was moved from Singapore. BL: It was moved from Singapore and we had the original abstract which stayed with the house and um, which I just recently sold. Um, but the Singapore house, the abstract reflected that the taxes changed in the winter of 1874, 1875 and so we suspected that when the prop, the house had been moved. We had been told by, and I don’t remember who had told us that, but it had been separated in two and skidded up the channel on ice and then reassembled on the property and then the main house, uh was started construction sometime thereafter. Um, the main house actually had been called, when we bought it, had a sign out front, called ‘The 1894 House’, and the reason for that was because there was an addition made to that, that property, that house uh, that the cornerstone laid at the very front and that was the parlor and the master bedroom above it, um that had that date on it. Leslie Junkerman who was as Justice of the Peace, ended up, held court in the front parlor, and consequently we had had from time to time people that would knock on the door and want to come in and say ‘oh, yeah we were married in your front parlor, could we look at it’ and so on and so forth, so uh, but that gives kind of a brief �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 2 thumbnail of, of that property. I don’t know if I could tell you anything more about it than the people we bought it from [pause] Jim and Pam Davis were the previous owners to us and she was a Potter and the what is now kind of an office, secondary apartment uh, was where her studio was, and um, anyway Jim was a Pharmaceutical Representative of some sort and um, it had really fallen onto bad times. It was, the main house had had a fire in it, and like I said all the, everything had been shut off so when we bought it we were digging in and going for, going for the walls as far as putting everything back to right. [00:05:29] KK: Uh, I spoke with you once before Bob about the fact that uh you have some knowledge about the houses around you? BL: Oh! KK: …and that some of them were from Singapore, can you elaborate on that? BL: Well, you know, from the standpoint, yes. Um, headed toward the channel which would be west, next door neighbor was Marlene Ansorge, she lived there when we bought the property but the next, the next house over Betty Watson at that time, she later married uh, Warren Mulder, uh, ah, we were told that was, had been a Singapore house now I, I can’t substantiate that because some of the people that we had talked to, either have passed or don’t remember anymore, and so on. But, I know that the house on the other side of that one, which would be 1, 2, 3 down from us, that had been, um, purchased and a second story elevated to that house and that was a Singapore house and then I think, um, the property called Filamare, I believe that was a Singapore house as well. The interesting thing about that block was that our back property line was constant from Holland Street all the way to Butler Street. We shared that common back, uh, back lot line and that, in fact you could, if, from, from the air you could look down and see the, that track right on through. Interesting piece of property. Betty Watson, Betty Mulder told us that her Uncle had owned everything on that street from Holland Street to Butler Street at one time, which would’ve gone back, probably 1870. KK: And you’re talking about what street is that? BL: That’s Lucy Street. KK: Lucy Street. BL: Lucy Street. KK: Okay. BL: Holland Street, it would kind of, I’ll call it parallel to Lucy Street, but and, if you look at, the, the actual survey of that corner property the um, 748 746 Holland Street the one corner marker for that property is out in the middle of, I should shouldn’t say middle, but it is out in the right hand traffic lane of Lucy Street. If you measure from one corner to this corner to that corner, it’s an oddball shape its �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 3 right out in the middle of that one lane. So, the city actually owe, owns, owes, owes me some back tax money I think I should probably get. KK: Yeah, good luck. BL: Yes. Anyway. KK: Um, why did you locate in Saugatuck Douglas? BL: Well, um we were renting a place up in Macatawa Park and this goes back to ‘77 ‘78. My wife had taken a job over in what is considered the Haworth Building, she worked for a company called Flame Tech as a Office Manager everything taken care of payroll, this and that and whatever, and um, I was working for Bone Aluminum and consequently I’d pick her up from after work and I’m, we just took a jaunt down Water Street crossed the bridge, and I took the first right hand turn once I could, could take a right hand turn up past the congregational church and down the hill, and on Holland Street, and this is the month of February and I see this mustard colored house with cream trim and I’m thinking ‘Wow! Look at that!’ and she said the same thing, and in the snow, sticking up about this far above the snow and I’m showing you about 4 inches of height, there’s a for-sale sign and I’m thinking ‘Oh my goodness’. Well through the course of events we were able to purchase it and did a lot of back-tracking because the people that had owned it, had left the area and so on. But, we thought it was [chuckles] a quaint area, like a fishing village from Massachusetts Connecticut someplace out there. Well that’s not quite the case. [00:10:24] KK: That would be about what year? BL: Ah, it would be 1978, and we closed on the property on May the 4th and started working it on May the 5th because we had to be out of the property that we were renting up in Macatawa Park by the end of May. So do you know, when we moved would’ve been? Memorial Day weekend! Now, if you’ve been around Memorial Day weekend you know that it is like ‘Holy Smokes! What did we get ourselves into?’ Nothing but traffic and confusion and it was um, to put it very bluntly, it was like a madhouse. But, we got through it, um, we raised uh, her two kids, we adopted another one and my three kids from time to time were here and the main house was just that, it now became a residence and uh, there’s four bedrooms upstairs and one bedroom down, a parlor, and so on and so forth. But, very nice community, good school system, great school system in fact. KK: Uh, what was your first impression of the area? BL: Yeah [laughs] moving on Memorial Day? Yeah, the first impression was when we saw that house, and that was like ‘Oh my goodness look at this’, it, it was an amazing thing. I, I truly did, the house was everything I thought it was, it had enough gingerbread on it, just to be more than attractive and ah, it looked like it needed saving so we did. �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 4 KK: And so you really did not have earlier contact with uh, Saugatuck or anything? BL: No, I had been here once in high school, back, went to Oval Beach when I was in um, our, our, I was in DeMolay and our whole, our whole lodge came over to the, um, to Oval Beach once, one Saturday, and uh, that was the only contact I’d had with it, never knew what it was like. KK: Any special memories of Oval Beach at the time? BL: Hm, not at the time because that would’ve been, I was probably 16 or 17, and that’s um, [whispers] that’s over 50 years ago. KK: Can you share any particular memories about living here, besides what you have, anything good or bad that just kind of stands out? BL: Um, the academics that are here. The school system is amazing. The um, the class sizes at the time that, that, um my stepson and my stepdaughter were in, were you know 30 35 kids so it was a 1 on 1 and the competition between students was amazing. The National Honors society always struck home um, Jack was actually for the college entrances on was, should’ve been Valedictorian but was um, Salutatorian. Anyway! It’s, it’s the school system that was a draw. KK: Ah, what were the um, the key places in Saugatuck and Douglas that you liked to hang, hang out in or go to? BL: Hm, oh I’d go down to the Butler, to the restaurant, um, over in well, now, now I don’t think it was at the time but Ida Red’s for breakfast once in a while. Um, Jack was working for, Jack my stepson, he uh, worked for Henry Gleason, right there beside the boat launch, and uh, in fact we ended up helping Henry and Claire Deen at the time that they were running the store, and of course um, Bruce and Marilyn Staring they ran the, um, Star of Saugatuck the paddle wheeler that was right next store so we knew that, and took advantage of that every now and again. Would ride that every once and a while. KK: Okay, um, doesn’t affect you there, uh, how aware were you of the LGBT community here? [00:15:02] BL: How aware? KK: Huh, yeah. BL: Oh, I just, I never really paid too much attention, to it really, I mean I, I knew it was here, didn’t matter one way or the other. KK: Yeah. BL: I was a, I’m a, a ‘Live and let live’. �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 5 KK: Okay, uh, let’s see…and I guess the other question I would want to ask you, did you have any contact with the art school or any… how aware were you as somebody living here of the art school and what went on there? BL: I, I knew that it, you mean Oxbow? KK: Oxbow, yes. BL: I knew that it was there, I never really visited it as far as going out and taking a tour of it, but I knew, uh, my, my one, my one daughter ended up having a, um, a stepson that was doing um, artwork over there. Back, this goes back probably 30, yeah maybe 25 years ago and so on, but I knew it was there and knew that it was rather prestigious from the standpoint that, you know, ‘Oh you’re in Saugatuck, ah! You know where Ox…” Yes, I do, I know where Oxbow is but I never, I, I, was always out on the road working so, I never really took advantage of it. Wish I had though. KK: Yeah. Uh, how would you describe Saugatuck Douglas to somebody who’s never been here? BL: That’s a really good question because, during, during the off season, you could fire a shot gun off down Lucy Street and probably not hit anything. Ah, but during the season, I think a good description would be you go from 2,000 people during the offseason, wintertime, and during the season, it elevated to probably 20,000 people because of the outlying area and so on so forth. It’s a tourist community, there’s no doubt about that, it has a good draw, the restaurants and the stores everybody comes to town for that um, but candidly I would tell people that if you’re looking for a good restaurant, a nice place to stay, you can’t get to the beach from the Saugatuck side of things you have to go across, the, the bridge and then take a hitch and a giddy up. You know what a hitch and a giddy up is? Going that-away, um you know, long story short, yeah its its it’s good place to visit. KK: Okay, and how would you compare the area to other places you’ve lived and worked? BL: Oh. Hm, well, my growing up I was in a rural area. I actually lived in the Charlotte area, there’s no real comparison because it was, Charlotte was farm industrial community, were, Lansing, Lansing’s bedroom. Oldsmobile was there, Fisher Body was there and uh, and in my hometown there was the Aluminum extrusion company and uh, a glass factory that would, uh, would manufacture Gerber baby food jars and uh, S-Strohs stubby beer bottles. So here’s this one community that I came from in 1976 all the way over here to the west side of the state, and [inaudible] there’s, it’s like apples and plums. It’s not the same. KK: Okay, um, do you have any specifically, or, favorite memories of the summer time here? BL: [Laughs] Venetian Night. KK: Well, talk about it. �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 6 BL: One, the traffic and so on getting out of town. We were sitting on the front porch, in the dark, watching the traffic try to get out of town. Try to get out of town was the key, cause this was before somebody really got a hold of it and organized it, this was probably would’ve been the early 80’s, somewhere in there and, [pause] is this going to be re-listened to and edited possibly because, one of the people that was in one of the cars, she got out the car ran up to our porch, did not see us and proceeded to relieve herself in our bushes! [00:20:05] [All laugh] BL: ...and my wife ended up taking her sprinkling can, stood up, and just poured the sprinkling can right on top of her head! [Imitates person complaining] Oh! Talk about wet hen! Ah, yeah. That was probably the highlight of it. After a while, you know Jack ended up getting a scholarship to Alma College, and we bought a cottage up north by uh, Lakeview and consequently weekends were spent up there so that the traffic and so on, we didn’t really partake in that and so on, but it, it was, it’s still a nice community. KK: Uh, let’s see, what type of shenanigans did you get into? Were you a participant, an instigator, or bystander of mayhem? BL: Uh, I was a bystander. I would never, never end up getting in. I just watched her take the sprinkling can and dump it on top of this woman’s head. No, no, I think probably the wildest thing was every now and then I’d fire up my motorcycle and run down the street and Jimmy VanOss and his crew down the street would “Hey!” Cheer and, oh well. KK: Well you um, you actually moved here after the, the um, the rock festivals and all that... BL: …Yes... KK: ...So you wouldn’t remember that. BL: No, it was ’78 when we moved here. KK: Yeah, uh, and um, [pause] how would you describe Saugatuck Douglass as you best remember it from, from this era? That would be the era like, when you moved here. BL: Boy. KK: I know. You gave us several examples already. BL: I just, you know, the one thing that changed, uh, that my wife prompted, she got after the state police for having people walking into town down our street from Holland Street from either the boat launch or from other places and so on with open container. And that would’ve been probably, the early 80’s, ’84, ’85 and yeah that’d be about right because Jack and Bryan Earlywine would stand on the �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 7 corner and the state police would have everybody dump their coolers, their beer cans, everything, and the kids would pick up their cans and cash them in down at Gleason’s! And I remember the guys doing, you know, great big grocery sacks full of that, and, and that pretty much ended the rowdiness, uh, it became controlled chaos rather than wild chaos. KK: Yeah. BL: It, it did, it got out of hand if anybody has ever rafted off in front of Coral Gables, or down to the Singapore Yacht Club, I don’t think they do it down there, I think it’s more down in front of Coral Gables. When you raft off you have to go 1, 2, 3, 4. People that have not done boating don’t get that! Yeah. Have you done boating? KB: Not very much. BL: Do you know what I’m talking about? KB: Oh, yeah I do. BL: Oh, okay, yeah. KK: Ah, what are some of your hopes for the future? I know you just sold the house. Um, and what would you like to see happen in this community? BL: [pause] I can’t think of any reason why someone would want to have the road divided, from the bridge on into Douglas. That is a travesty, that’s a mess. Somebody is going to get hurt, killed, whatever, that, that’s, that was not well thought of. KK: Okay, and you’re referring to something that their working on right now. BL: Yeah! Yeah! That’s terrible. I’m you know a, if, if it were my vote I’d vote that right out right now and it’d be gone. That’s crazy. Somebody just wasn’t thinking right. KK: Um, remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time, when someone listens to this tape 50 years from now, what would you most like them to know about your life and community right now? BL: My life and community, hm, [pause] Well you know that I’m not a very friendly guy. [00:25:03] KK: [Laughs] BL: I’ve enjoyed and Ken, where I met you was at the Saugatuck Antique Pavilion, and you know how much I enjoyed, still would enjoy doing the communication and the elbow rubbing of customers and people that work there. You know I, just the very fact that, that [pause] try not to hurt anybody’s �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 8 feeling, you know somebody needs a hand, help them! Someone needs a door opened, open it for them! Somebody needs something loaded for them, load it for them! Just to be, do unto others I guess is probably a good thing. Yeah. KK: Do you have any advice for a young person who may listen to this tape, although I think you just gave some good advice. BL: [pause] Stay in school. Stay in school. That’s your paycheck for the future and you don’t realize it right now, ‘Oh my goodness this is terrible, I hate going to school. The classes are this and that’ Stay in school. That is, that is, that is the draw the education is that jewel that you can end up losing by passing it along to other people. Dig in, go for it. I just graduated 2 grandsons, one over out of Lansing Catholic and another one out of Olivet and I look at these kids and I think, we might make it. As a society, we might make it, finally. Anyway. KK: Ah, is there anything that you’d like to share that I might not have asked about? This is your chance to just go for it. BL: [Laughs] You mean I didn’t before? Uh... KK: I know you too well. BL: No, I, you know, I from time to time will be coming back here. Um, right now I’m still sorting through boxes, and I still have things in the cargo trailer that, from the move a month ago. In fact, just for one little high note, and that was, or low note that, that the property we owned it. I just cleared May the 4th this year, so from May the 4th of 1978 to May the 4th of 2018 I was here exactly 40 years. Exactly 40 years, and it was a, it was like [snaps] a snap. I had hair color when started here. KK: Yeah and for the record, if you didn’t see a picture of Bob, Bob has perfectly white hair. BL: Perfectly white hair. KK: And lots of it! BL: Yep, I’m going to hang on to it! It was a good gene pool. KK: Now, Katelyn is there anything that you wanted to ask? BL: She’s been so talkative over there, hasn’t she? Giggle, giggle, giggle. KB: No, I don’t think so. Think we’ve got some good stories. BL: There are some that I can’t repeat, but yeah. KK: Okay, well thank you so much for your time and sharing with us, uh, this concludes the interview. �Robert Lord - Interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Katelyn Bosch June 4 2018 BL: Thanks, Ken. [00:28:43] 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-LordR-20180604 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lord, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-04 Title A name given to the resource Robert Lord (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Bob Lord moved to a historic home in Saugatuck in 1978. In this interview he covers the history of his home, known as "The 1894 House." He details some of his favorite summer activities, and offers some hopes for the future of Saugatuck. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer) Bosch, Katelyn (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Singapore (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db8462c35ad32452ff7324f39ea86cb6.mp3 62c69cbe0fe79a2ddf83b73ef83dfe14 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/32031d4de500d0428317ac079225cfb1.pdf c87722305ca0dc1b45b4fdcf09667ae9 PDF Text Text Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 1 Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollannek and I... Ken Kutzel: …and Ken Kutzel… EG: …and I’m here today with… Ray Foster: Ray Foster. EG: Uh, at the old school house in Douglas, Michigan on July 23rd, uh, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to meet with us today, we’re interested in learning more about your family’s history, in particular experiences of summer. Can you please state your full name and spell it for us? RF: Raymond Edward Foster, R A Y M O N D, E D W A R D, F O S T E R EG: That’s great, alright, so we’ll, we’ll continue our conversation here, you brought in a few things here about your farm, you want to tell us a little bit about where it is and… RF: Well this, this was kind of a family farm, um, my mother, mothers’ parents and uh, her grandparents uh, um, bought eighty acres. They came from Chicago in the late 1800’s and uh, bought eighty acres uh, near the corner of 66th street and uh, 126th and uh, they [pause] they farmed it and uh, [pause] uh, a lot of different things. They had blueberries and raspberries and uh, they had 20 head of cattle and uh, chickens and uh, at different times, different things, uh. Through the years and uh, they raised four daughters, my mother was the oldest and uh, [pause] she spent, she was the last one to leave the farm. The other daughters grew up, we got married and then before World War Two, and then my mother got married after World War Two and uh, so she spent more time on the farm. But as I was growing, when I grew up and [pause] I, I stayed there with my grandparents. They were in good health and uh, help them do things [pause] and uh, but mainly just really enjoyed the place. And uh, it was uh, just a just a beautiful retreat, and uh, a lot of great place to explore and uh, [pause] uh, [long pause] KK: Is the house still standing? RF: The house is still standing, it’s had several owners since then, and uh, but uh, [pause] but it’s been, it’s changed some. Uh, considerably. The house, the outside structure’s pretty much the same but it has a garage added to it, but uh, and uh… KK: I noticed it says here that that’s the Hines homestead? RF: Yes... KK: Is that what it was called? RF: Well yes, my, [stutters] I, I, I didn’t mention that but my, my great grandfather's name was Emo Hines and he came from Chicago and he was not a farmer but he kind of adopted the, the [stutters] hob hobby, but he had just one son, Otto who was my, my uh grandfather and my great grandfather was a German immigrant and uh, [pause] he uh, [pause] along with his son uh, they kind of developed the �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 2 land. They planted fruit trees and grape vineyards and, and uh, and raised cattle, and tilled the soil with a team of horses and uh, um, [pause] it was a [pause] a [pause] a labor of love I think, uh, uh, they uh, it stayed in the family till the 70’s and uh, so ah, let’s see where can I go from there uh, but I, but I, I spent a lot of time there in the 60’s, the 50’s and 60’s and uh, [pause] and uh, [pause] well… KK: How ‘bout, give another...tell us, you, the other day when we spoke with you. You started to tell us a story about one time when you were on the farm and the motorcycles came in... RF: Oh! KK: Would you talk about that please? RF: No, actually that was at my parents’ house… KK: Oh! RF: ...on M89 east of Fennville. KK: Well let’s talk about that anyway! [00:04:39] RF: Okay! Sure! Well it was probably ‘65 ‘66, maybe ‘64 ‘65 ‘66, [pause] I think by ‘67-’68 it kind of fizzled out. But, on a Memorial Day weekend or Fourth of July weekend, uh, you could hear, hear from a long ways away this, this sound of motorcycles coming, and there was long strings of them, and various, [stutters] grou-groups, probably a dozen in a group or so, maybe more, and they came from Detroit, Flint, and uh, [pause] uh, mainly east, on the other, eastern side of the state, but uh, I guess I could describe them as a colorful group. They weren't, they weren't necessarily uh, like uh, social club they were, they more of, of an old [stutters] I I I don’t want to make a comparison to the Hell’s Angels but they were, they were kind of that style. Uh, their, their jackets on the back had, had little titles like uh ‘Disciples from Hell’ or ‘Hell’s Disciples’ or that sort of thing. That theme was very popular, and uh, but when I was able to go to Saugatuck, uh, on those weekends it was incredibly busy, they would actually, unless you could prove you lived there they wouldn’t let you in they would stop at the top of the hill, they wouldn’t let cars down. And, the motorcycles would be rode up the entire like, from Phil’s all the way down to the corner and uh, they um, [pause] they would pretty much take over the town. As, as strange as that might sound, and and the police were, were usually, it wasn’t like today, they were, it was a small police force and they might rent a few, we referred to ‘them as Rent-a-Cops because they were just hired for that special occasion. And uh, I’m, I’m not aware of any major, uh, conflicts that uh, that occurred. There may have been some but I wasn’t really aware of anything, like a, any kind of a small riot or anything like that. I wasn't aware of anything like that but, but as a teenager it was quite a novelty to see that. To be exposed to that, and uh, [pause] so, [pause] um, [pause] well, that was pretty much it, I mean uh, just, just to see it, holiday was over they were gone… KK: Did that happen every weekend? Or… RF: No, no, no. Just on, I only saw it on a holiday weekends, and uh, so, that was uh, kind of a, unique thing. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 3 EG: What were the reactions of your parents, or grandparents? RF: Well you know I… EG: Or neighbors to that? RF: You know, as far as my, the uh, [pause] the [pause] my parents’ generation, I don’t think they uh, I don’t think really could comprehend what was going on. I don’t, [stutters] I, I was never aware that they, uh, it wasn’t something they were happy about, I’m sure, I I know that much but as far as uh, feeling threatened or anything like that or, uh, [pause] they just, they just looked at it as some kind of a temporary thing, a phase I think. I don’t think they thought of it as a, um, you know a… EG: Collapse of civilization… RF: [Laughs] Yeah! Sure, that, yeah. I’m sure they thought of something like that. Yeah…. KK: Although at that time, was the um, was the summer season, here in Saugatuck, I mean was it um, as long as it is now, er, you know? RF: Well, I think, I think I would say it is, um, people started coming up, [pause] um probably before memorial day and, and um, to their cottages and such and uh, they pretty much stayed until after Labor Day, shortly after Labor Day. Yeah, there was good numbers of people. It’s hard to make a comparison between then and now, because things just look at a lot different. They appear a lot different. KK: Why don’t you talk about that? RF: Well, I, I guess I could say that, at that time, it was a very affordable place to go, for, for the average middle class person, and [pause] even though it had a history [pause] from, that I had heard about, you know ‘Well Saugatuck is really one of, a place you want to go because [stutters] they, they, they have bars they stay open all night’ and um there’s that kind of atmosphere but, but as a young person, you, you kind of want to be exposed to a little bit of that. KK: Well sure! All: [Laugh] [00:09:54] RF: Just to, just to find out for yourself and uh, but, that’s, that’s probably the most striking thing, and the development, there’s much more development today. You could, you could see the water when you came in off of, of Blue Start and came into town and you could see the water, uh all the way. There were no condos or anything like that, and uh, uh, [pause] so, [pause] I hesitate using the word quaint, but if you, if you were there in the winter you might call it that, but the summer there was a lot of people so it wasn't really, it was more, it was a tourist town, it was strictly a tourist town. But uh, [pause] uh, the Coral Gables was a really popular place at that time, very popular place. People would be lined up waiting to get in, and uh, and [pause] uh, I do remember some scuffles out front just as a bystander watching some people. Probably some unruly people getting thrown out, and those things kind of stick �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 4 in your head. But, uh, [pause] uh [pause] it was an evolution I guess, you know it just evolved from, you know my parents’ generation, they probably would’ve saw something, even more, uh, more quaint I guess you’d say, more slow paced and um,[pause] uh, but things have, thing have evolved to what they are today and uh, it’s it is, but uh I suppose it’s relative in a way, but it is more, more expensive for the average person to just go anywhere and spend some time in a, a restaurant or a bar. EG: Beyond Coral Gables, were there other places that stood out to you? That you spent time, or… RF: Well… EG: Or stayed away from, or? RF: Well the Butler and Coral Gables were always the biggest two, biggest items, and uh, everything else was just really small. Like uh, there was a place called the Boathouse, and that was down at the end of the street, across Wick’s Park, in that area, and uh, and uh, all the other little places were just um, [pause] were lesser, and then, then I, one thing I remembered too in, in it may have been ‘68 or ‘67, you guys might know, the Blue Tempo came in… KK: Yes let’s talk about that RF: Well, you know, as, as a, as a person growing up at that time, I didn’t even, I didn’t even understand what uh, or fully understand what uh, [pause] um, what a gay, the whole concept of gay people was… EG: Sure… RF: So, uh, but I knew this was a unique place, and I knew it had, but, had I known more, in in hindsight, I might of, might of tried to go there because I know they had great music, and uh, I’m a great uh, admirer of that kind of, uh, music, and a great history for music and uh, but uh, [pause] uh because now, as a 70 year uh, and having lived in the area, or known people in the area for a long time, that whole uh, uh, [pause] uh, shall I say the [pause] the gay scene, is is a, it doesn't, it doesn't even leave an impression on me anymore. KK: It’s become part of the culture. RF: It’s part of the culture, and uh, so, but, but it was always know as a unique place. It was the location was unique and uh, everybody knew that this was a gay bar, and uh, and uh, so, I wish I could tell you I’d been there and experienced it but I, I can’t. A friend of mine was there and I only get bits and pieces from him, but uh, [pause] uh [pause] but uh. EG: What were some of the reactions or things that people, other people’s reactions or things that you’ve heard about? RF: About… EG: [Inaudible] RF: About, concerning that? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 5 EG: Yeah! Ray: Ah, [pause] you know, people uh, were not really very activist type people at that time. Most people, you know, they went about their own business and if something new came along, well they talked about it, but as far as being a [pause] being a objectionable thing or a something that really disturbed people. People just kind of...after a while it just blew by. [00:15:14] KK: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah, and uh, so, the reaction, my impression of the reaction wasn’t, wasn’t anything really big. EG: Just another bar, another club that has good music and we’re probably not going there. That kind of… RF: That kind of reaction. EG: That kind of reaction? RF: That kind of a thing yeah, that’s fair to say. Yeah. KK: You know um, a question I have for you, being a Douglas resident myself, uh, what are your memories of the Douglas side? RF: Well, I occasionally, I would go there with my uh, grandparents occasionally. There was, there was a little grocery store down on the end of the street towards the river, uh, where uh, um [pause] well there was a little novelty store there near Naughtons... KK: Yeah. RF: Near Naughtons store there, that at one time there was a grocery store there… KK: Was that Vansicles? RF: Vansicles, yes! And they would go there occasionally, and uh, [pause] and we would also pick uh, they they raised uh, raspberries so we would pick raspberries and we would bring them into town and right where the park is, where the ballpark is there was a man, a vendor there, [pause] and uh, he would take all we had and uh, he would sell them to the tourists and uh, gosh, just trying to remember his name now, he had a son who was blind [pause] um, [long pause] gah! KK: Well it’s alright, it will come to you when you’re not thinking about it. RF: Right. But anyway it was a, so we did that, we would hang out there for a while but at that time, across the street, the uh, there was uh, a Catholic School there too. So we knew the, we knew about that, and at that time the original Catholic Church wasn’t St. Peter's it was just down the street. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 6 KK: Right. RF: And uh, one little side light to that, I have a, uh, my dad [pause] had an uncle and uh, I [pause] and he was the first baby to be baptized there, and I should’ve brought the name, the baptized name was all the little organizations in town gave him a name and when he went back many years later he was embarrassed because they mentioned him, and brought him, and mentioned him and everything but his baptized name was uh, Peter Paul Benedict, uh, Jacob Ivan, [pause] Clark and uh, and they all gave him a name so, it was, it was an embarrassing thing for him as an adult. But uh, he did happen to be the first baby that was baptized there uh, he was a part of a large family that was also in the area. But [pause] but it was a, it was a, it was a incredibly quiet quaint little town. Just down the street there was a place called the Delicatessen and a man named Red Delky owned it and he had a baker working for him that was a refugee from Austria, a World War Two refugee, and an incredibly talented pastry chef and anybody my age can tell you, that lived in the area that they made the best bread and uh, and uh, uh [pause] sweet rolls and that sort of thing uh, that you could find anywhere. And uh, and uh, down a little bit further there was a little drug store so it was a, really a, had everything. KK: [Inaudible} RF: Just a little town! And uh, I uh, I would also go on Friday night, quite often on Friday night with my grandparents, near the corner of uh, Blue Star and uh, Maple Street, uh going to the north. There was a house on the right hand side, at one time it was a resort, owned by my grandfather's uncle, Fred Hines and [pause] they would pick up people, you would pick up people that came in on the boats and then bring them back to the resort and uh, his wife would uh, do the housekeeping and uh, he was just mainly just took them around town to the beach or wherever they wanted to go and uh, but, they had a little resort there. So but, in later years when I went there with my grandparents, the uh, the next generation down lived there, my, would be a cousin to my grandmother, grandparents, er grandfather and uh, so we would just go there, spend some time there with them, they would uh, talk about old times and that sort of thing, and uh, but uh, it was just [pause] a nice quiet little visit. But uh, I don't know, what else can I tell you? [00:20:46] KK: Do you remember the, uh, the rock festival at all? Were you involved in that, or? RF: I did go to the one at uh, near Goshorn Lake… KK: Okay, that’s Potawatomi Beach, right? RF: Potawatomi Beach, yes. Uh, yes, I did go to that in ‘68, I believe KK: I believe that’s what it was…. RF: I think it was in ‘68, and it was hot and dry and sandy roads and people would, uh, it was [inaudible] it was incredibly crowded and uh, you couldn’t get close to the band stand, it was just uh, again there was, there was that large influx of uh, motorcycle people and they kind of dominated an area there, but uh, so you could hear things from a distance unless you, unless you somehow got there real early and �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 7 worked your way in, but it was kind of a phenomenon I guess because the volume of people, yeah I think I, I think I read where cars were lined up all the way from, from that park all the way to the bridge at the river… KK: I have heard that…. RF: It’s hard to imagine… KK: Yeah EG: Right RF: So, and then they decided they’d never do that again, but uh, the history of those types of things are, is, is great. I mean when it goes back to uh, when they had a pavilion and then it’s the uh, got that racetrack… KK: Right… RF: But uh, I do remember, uh, probably the late 50’s when they had a Jazz Festival, the Saugatuck Jazz Festival, uh, at the racetrack there and uh, Duke Ellington and a few other celebrities were there and my grandparents farm was kind of a, like a mile south of there, on 126th and uh, just about half a mile from the corner of Blue Star and 126th, and with the windows open at night, I remember them introducing Duke Ellington and them mentioning his name, that always stuck in my, stuck with me forever after that. I thought, wow what would’ve been so great to be there… KK: And that sound would carry over because it was all farms… RF: Yes. KK: Yeah. RF: Pretty, quite open at that time. EG: So you could hear? You could hear music and…. RF: I could, yes, yeah, not really well but some, yeah. EG: Yeah. RF: And prior to that it was a stock car track, a little dirt stock car track and there was uh, um, uh, auto racing there. It was quite, for many years, it went on but uh, I never experienced that, I wish I had but uh, [pause] um [pause] KK: Any contact, uh at all, or anything you can share about contact with Oxbow or the people from there? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 8 RF: No, I never really knew about Oxbow until later I, I consider myself an art lover but I, I never really knew about it. I wish that I had known more about it at a younger age but it’s a, it’s a great great thing to have in the area. KK: Yeah, it was more a private club… RF: Way back! KK: And it's interesting that you bring that up because you're not the first person who said ‘We really didn't pay attention to it’. RF: No, I never really knew much about it, till later years, and uh, but uh... EG: Do you remember much of seeing many artists around? Seeing people painting in town, in Douglas or Saugatuck, or? RF: No, I always knew it was an art, artsy community but I didn't spend much time, you know, going from shop to shop, I uh, really at that point in my life, I wasn't really that, I was more, uh, driving your car, go to the beach, and uh that sort of thing, uh, and getting together with people, but uh, the art, [pause] I know it existed but I never, I was never exposed to it. [00:25:16] KK: Then, what was the beach like then? RF: Oh, it was great! Uh, there was, there was of course the Oval Beach, but then, the Douglas, Douglas had a beach, and then there was several beach on down, uh, there were then. I never remembered big crowds there like today. I have seen some photographs of big crowds but uh, but uh, it was a they were, they were fairly well kept up and uh, and uh, it was quite a thing to go the Oval Beach was uh, was really quite a special thing. KK: Were you guys aware at all of the nude beach? Or did that come later? RF: You know, I wasn't aware of that, I heard about it, no I heard about it. I did hear about it as a uh, probably in the late 60’s I heard about it. KK: Okay. RF: But uh, that’s really the end of it there, I, I uh, wasn’t curious about that. KK: Yeah, yeah. Had, had you ever been out on that Denison property with all those dunes? RF: Yes! I have! KK: Yeah that’s kind of, well talk about that a little bit, because that I think has to be seen to be believed. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 9 RF: Well, its, its south of the mouth of the river. I, I did walk that and to the, to the uh, old light house, in that area, and that's great. That was great country to explore and to follow it all the way up to the, to bald head and then back down, it was a great, great experience and very natural area and uh, you could see the old pilings in, in the pine and that little, where the channel was… KK: Yeah, the lagoon, yeah. RF: ...and the lagoon yeah and uh, and then uh, well of course there was the pier you could walk out on that, but [pause] uh, [pause] it was a, you I considered it a great area, beautiful area but I never got to the north side there north side of the channel where the Denison’s property was I never really saw that. Uh… KK: Well it was hard to get out there, always had to take that dug road… RF: Yeah, Dugout road, yeah. I, my mother, in later years uh worked for uh Ken Denison and planted, I think, she and another lady cleaned the boats when it was, when it, when they were in business out there at the end and…. KK: You're talking Broward Marine… RF: Broward Marine, yes, and, and they uh, uh, my mother planted a whole row of daffodils along the bank there and was around long enough to see how nice they looked and uh, and uh, she thought the Denison’s were great people, generous people and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] uh, [pause] only knew, she knew the dad some but knew Ken more uh, but uh, never, I, I don’t know if the big house was built at that time but there was a house there along with the uh, the [pause] marina and the business, but uh, [pause] um, [pause]. The uh, [pause] well going back to the farm there uh, back then all the roads were dirt roads pretty much uh, they hadn’t paved a lot of the roads there and uh, so you uh, that was a [pause] a back in time compared to how it is today. KK: Yeah, where did you go to school? RF: I did go to school in Fennville that's where my family actually lived. KK: So was it the old high school there, or? RF: I did go in the old, to the old high school for a couple years, before it was uh, not used anymore but uh, uh… KK: And what about for a grade school was in Fennville also? RF: Yep, that was also in Fennville, yeah, uh… KK: I'm going to ask you a funny question… RF: ...no, no it’s fine. KK: Did, did you have Mrs. Northrup for any… �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 RF: Yes! Yes I did! [Laughs] KK: [Laughs] Oh, that’s, so, she’s a real good close of mine, and um… RF: Oh my gosh, how old is she? KK: She’s about 93, er um, yep. She has dinner at my house every Monday, in fact she’ll be over tonight… [00:30:03] RF: Really? KK: I’ll have to mention you. RF: She was my third grade teacher. KK: But its, its, she, I was just telling, ah, somebody today uh, we go out with her quite often and no matter where we go, she’s had every person… RF: Oh, no doubt. KK: She taught at, yeah, she taught in Fennville. RF: Yes. KK: Oh that’s kind of wonderful. RF: She was a sweet lady, I, I can tell you that. KK: And it was her family that owned, uh Sunny Shore. RF: Oh, really? KK: On [inaudible] the river road. RF: See I thought, I thought they lived more out on the...south. KK: They lived in Allegan, but it was her husband’s family that went there as kids. RF: Okay, and she did have a son, that's true. Is that true? Yes? KK: Ah, yep, yeah uh [inaudible] Jeff! RF: Okay. 10 �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 11 KK: Her son Jeff, he’s still around. RF: Alright, alright. KK: Yeah. RF: Yeah. KK: It’s a small world! RF: Oh! It’s a lot smaller than you realize if you, if we really, I mean it, when I look at this, or even a newer one I, I know so many of the people on these placards or I’m familiar with them. KK: Well, it’s a small area, really. RF: Yeah, well, for example uh, uh, this farm here this Ed Work farm… KK: Mhm RF: Mrs. Work, Mary Work, she was a teacher in the Saugatuck Douglas area for many years but then she taught in Fennville. She, she uh, her family, her dads family were, were involved in the uh, basket factory. KK: Okay. RF: The name, you probably have seen it. KK: Yep! RF: In concern, in relation to the basket factory, and uh, so and she she donated a ton of really great photos of uh, the history of the area, I’m sure they’re in the archives. KK: I’m sure they’re in the, I’m sure they’re in the collection. EG: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah they’re great. KK: Well that's, that great, um, let’s see. Uh, well you brought a couple of other photos here so, why don't we take a look, why don't you tell us, I see uh… RF: Well, I have, I have to show you this photo here. This photo, and Mrs. Northrup would remember this… KK: I should’ve brought her! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 12 RF: Well, anyway, this house is no longer there but if you're on the river road there, you go past where sunny side... KK: Sunny Shore, yeah. RF: and you keep going East to, there’s a curve, where 62nd… KK: Yep! RF: ...Where... KK: I know exactly where it is. RF: This house used to be right on that, on the right hand side of that property. That property went way back to a family named Purdy… KK: Okay… RF: Uh, Erastus Purdy he was a civil war veteran and he, he owned that property and they had a landing down below, on the river uh, and a man named uh, one of his sons [inaudible] Purdy they had a boat named after him, and uh he he was kind of a, well I don't know if it was just a tourist, tourist boat or if it was a working boat, but anyway they had a landing there and uh, were I think way back there was actually a trading post there, on that location right down below…. KK: Could be, yeah, because that's, you know, Mac’s Landing is down from there… RF: Yes! Yeah, right it has, there's an association between that and Mac’s Landing… KK: Okay… RF: But uh… KK: Yeah, that's very interesting. RF: Yeah. KK: That already looks like it had fallen on hard time there… RF: Oh yes! Yes. KK: Is that sand or is that snow in front? Is that a little bit of snow? RF: It is snow. EG: It looks like snow, yeah. KK: Yeah it looks like it because I don't see uh, leaves on the tree there. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 13 RF: But I’m sure it was a beautiful house at one time. KK: Yeah! EG: Yeah, lots of great shingle work in the gables and on the octagonal bay. Queen Anne revival… RF: The uh, one of the daughters her, think it was her granddaughter of the original owner, her name was Purdy and she had a friend of uh, she had somebody drive her to Saugatuck or wherever she wanted to go, and the car was a Pierce-Arrow. KK: Oh! RF: Was a beautiful old Pierce-Arrow and uh my mother always remembered that because it, nobody had a Pierce-Arrow. KK: You know what, gosh, Joan Northrup told me a story about that car. RF: I’ll bet. KK: Yeah, and I, bet you she, she knew who the people were. RF: Oh she would know that, yes! I know who the, uh, driver was the driver man’s name was uh, Cleo Art and he lived just down, down 62nd, er 66th street there he had a farm down there and uh, he was the driver and whenever she wanted to go somewhere, he would take her. But uh… [00:35:04] KK: That's great! RF: Yeah. KK: Tell us about your family, do you have children, er? RF: I have two sons, yes! KK: Okay. RF: and uh, they don't live in the area, one’s in Rhode Island and ones in Grand Rapids, but uh, and they they visit, or we visit them but uh, uh, but my family my mother uh, married a man from Fennville and they started a little uh, my my dad and my uncle in the, actually before World War Two in the late 30’s they started a little Mom and Pop grocery store meat market right on the main street where the Salt of the Earth is… KK: Oh! Okay! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 14 RF: Yeah that was a, and then there’s a stairway going upstairs and then just to the, to the left of that was a little clothing store which was operated by by um my dad and my uncles father, and he had that since the uh early 20’s and uh then it was inherited by the next son and he ran it until the uh, late 60’s and then my uh my dad and my uncle uh, when they were drafted in World War Two they, let the people, the uh, there was a, there was a two brothers that uh, they purchased it, purchased it from they took it back over again and ran it until they got back from the service and they took it back again. KK: Oh that's interesting. RF: Yeah, and uh but they they had a little grocery store there and so so myself and my brothers we worked for them, worked in the store there and that sort of thing and uh… KK: In Fennville, you know obviously where the downtown is and then you know, as you come west, there’s, now it’s a parking lot but there’s a big empty area there, that’s you know, did that burn down? What was there? RF: No. Uh, well, at one time there was a bank on the uh, on the corner just uh, well it would be the south, uh, south, uh, southeast corner. KK: Yeah. RF: …and then, and then no there was a hardware store quite a large hardware store, farm implements on that corner and then next to that was a lumberyard… KK: Oh! RF: Yeah, going west and then next to that was the Fennville Herald newspaper house and it was real small little newspaper office with, and they had to set the type by hand, it was quite a thing, and uh, uh [pause] and then there was the business on the corner, Fennville tire but uh, yeah that was all businesses in there and there were houses behind there was a row of houses. KK: So what happened? Did it burn? RF: No, no... KK: They just tore it down? RF: There were no fires, uh yeah, it just [pause] it they, they were very old and I’m not sure how, where there was a [pause] in bad repair or the city bought it, I really don't know. I know the City now owns that, a large chunk of that land and uh, the uh Salt of the Earth uses part of it for a parking lot or other businesses but uh, yeah, there was a… KK: I’m glad to know that, I always wondered… RF: ...In the 60’s, in the 60’s it was a uh, it had had, a real upturn in economy, the canning factory was going great guns, three shifts, and uh, and uh, employment was high and uh a lot of migrant workers �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 15 were there in the summer and on weekends streets were full of people and uh, and then it kind of went down in the 70’s and 80’s and then that's just starting to come back again, yeah. KK: That’s very, very interesting. You have over here, that you said that you have a boat picture here? RF: Yeah this, this photo here [pause] this little sail boat was owned by a man named uh, Leo Tucker, and he was a fruit farmer uh, down by, on Hutchins lake and, and the name of the boat was the Kit Kat but it, it has a nice shot of the pavilion… KK: ...Oh, it looks wonderful! RF: ...and uh, and the uh, Coral Gables, and uh and uh this photo is my grandmother, uh, Otto Hines’ wife, Edith and it’s on top of Mount Bald Head and I’m going to say it’s not long after the pavilion was built, she was born in the 1870’s, late 1870’s so, she was a young woman but uh, you can see one of the large posts there, and uh, but you can see the pavilion and, and the two uh, [pause], parks…. [00:40:11] KK: ...and I love that you can see the old bridge… RF: Yes! The old bridge, yes... KK: The old bridge is still there… RF: Yeah, and so, and I did get this blown up and I’ve got a beautiful framed picture at home, those are my grandparents there, and uh, they were farmers their whole lives, and uh, when this, when their farm was built it was the first farm on that street 126th from 66th to Blue Star and that road was known as Hines Road. KK: Oh, really? RF: Yeah. KK: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so you're lucky to have such nice photos… RF: ...Yeah I am very lucky, these are, this is uh, uh a later picture with some vineyards in the front and they moved the windmill to the back of the house, and er the well and uh, but uh, it was still horse and buggy days, you can see buggy tracks here and uh, uh yeah that's pretty much… KK: ...Really really wonderful, thank you for bringing those. RF: Well… KK: ...Do you have any more questions, that you have Eric, that were on the list that we were supposed to ask? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 16 EG: No, we moved through a good list of things. Lots of really great things some things we haven't heard before… RF: ...Well thanks… EG: ...or that compliment things… KK: Yeah no, it's fun and I’m, I’m going to get you together with Joan Northrup… RF: Okay! I’d like that. KK: Yeah. EG: Anything else you’d like to say? RF: Well, here's one thing I’d like to add. You know the pavilion was, was such a highlight of the, uh, my parents and my, my grandfather Otto, he knew one of the uh, one of the uh, managers or something so he could always get in, and he had four daughters so, I’m assuming they all got in, that would be six people but at that time in history, and I don't know if you folks have ever heard this before, but and I, I don’t bring it up to sound like I’m uh, anti-Semite or anything like that but, the seats were, were marked ‘Gentiles’ for Gentiles and for Jews and one time, I don't know if it was a little crowded or what but my grandfather sat in a place where it said ‘For Jews’ and my mother will never forget this, she says a woman came by and just sat right on his lap until he got up. KK: No, there are, there are a lot of stories, it was very anti-Semitic, uh in Saugatuck and uh… RF: ...Well, yeah, I don’t, I’m not aware of the uh, I know it was, there was a separation there… KK: Yeah… RF: But… KK: They were not allowed, the Jews were not allowed to stay in a lot of the hotels… RF: Oh, really? KK: Yeah RF: Okay KK: Yeah, there’s some, there's some interesting, uh records of that and um, but uh that’s one story I have not heard. RF: Yeah KK: I guess, I guess a lot would’ve come over on those boats, you know what I mean? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 17 RF: From Chicago. KK: From Chicago, yes, so you’d have to accommodate it. RF: There were a few that uh, a few that were, that lived here. There were a few Jews that stayed here, that were, almost like natives and uh, of course South Haven had a… KK: Yes… RF: ...had a larger population of that and uh, [pause] uh, the, the old Glen Shores Golf Club, I know this because my Dad was best man with one of the sons of the owner who, who started the business just before the depression and uh, he had big plans for it and everything and some of the print outs of uh, advertising and everything he advertised it as a Christian place and he, he had a very subtle way of saying, the, the Jews weren't necessarily welcome. KK: It’s hard to imagine… RF: ...It’s a novelty, it’s uh, it’s uh, it was a different world back then, and it was long before World War Two. EG: Do you remember much, and thinking along those same lines, do you remember much uh, African American, People of Color in Saugatuck Douglas area? RF: No, I don't. In, in school when I was growing up uh, we had two or three families and that was it and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] um, [pause] I really don’t, I really don’t no. EG: Not much, not much reaction… [00:45:01] RF: ...Oh no, no, uh, no not at all, uh, there was uh, there was a Jamaican man who worked for one of the farmers there and I knew him a little bit. He used to come into town every, every uh every Saturday to buy his groceries and he, his skin was almost purple you know he, he was very dark, and but he was Jamaican and he uh, a good natured person and uh, hard working person and uh, he about the only uh, man of color that we would see. The uh, Spanish, er uh, I shouldn't say Spanish I should say the Mexican population, we always called them Spanish [pause] for some reason but Mexican is what they were, but Mexican didn't sound right so people said Spanish for some reason... KK: ...Well probably because that’s what they spoke… RF: ...I suppose that’s it, and so, they started uh, their numbers have rapidly increased uh, in uh, in recent years, and there were always Spanish people in school with us. Saugatuck was a little different, that was a little more unique, it was a little more [pause] all [pause] Anglo, all uh, all white. Even to this day it’s more that way, but uh… KK: ...Well that’s really interesting. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 18 EG: One other question that I’ve asked people as we’ve done these recordings. So we’re saving these, with the idea that these will be around 50 plus years from now, so uh, thinking ahead, imagining someone listening to this in uh, 2068 uh, are there, is there anything you’d like them to know about your life or the community here, as it is today? RF: I can just say that, that I can’t complain about anything, I learned a good work ethic, working for my grandparents and uh, and my parents taught me a good work ethic and uh, I think that was a big benefit for me growing into adulthood but on the other side, I got to see, I got to see a great community kind of evolve into a more modern day, uh, [pause] uh, [pause] place and, and those are great memories, but I also have the memories that my parents and grandparents uh, told me about how it was back then in the horse and buggy days and uh, but uh, [pause] I guess I’d just like to say that it was a great place to grow up, uh, a great place to experience. The summers were uh, the winters were kind of brutal but the summers were, summers were great, and uh, Lake Michigan, to have Lake Michigan and uh, the sand dunes and uh, [pause] the river and everything it was a great experience and uh, no regrets. KK: Good! RF: I guess that I would regret that I didn't ask more questions uh, to my grandparents, uh, to try to absorb a little more information but uh, uh, but uh, other than that I have no regrets. It was great, and I love being able to talk to someone that experienced the same things I did, and uh, relate to the same things, those are always fun, but uh, this historical society is doing everything it can to preserve these things and, I, I salute them for that, that's a great thing. KK: Well thank you very much! RF: Thank you. EG: You're more than welcome. Alright, well with that, that will conclude this interview. Thanks again. RF: Thank you. [00:49:24] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-FosterR-20180723 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Foster, Raymond Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-23 Title A name given to the resource Raymond Foster (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Raymond Foster spent much of his summers at his grandarents' farm outside Saugatuck, Michigan. His memories include watching many groups of motorcycles enter Saugatuck in the mid- to late-1960s. He also recalls that the geography of the land around the farm allowed him to hear Duke Ellington play at a 1950s jazz festifal that was 1/2 mile away. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Farming Motorcycle gangs Gay culture Music festivals Beaches Antisemitism Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15bed5bb3811867abfb16750b09548d9.mp3 d2da8c60105b541e853cff0537e1ea64 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/95d666a7c26a01dcc7fa10ec2104d233.pdf b4ecab4a52949cab17bc07807b7b9545 PDF Text Text Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 1 Nathan Neitering: Uh, this is Nathan Neitering, and I’m here today with Nancy Crean at the old schoolhouse in Douglas, Michigan on June 6th 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me today, I’m interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. First, can you please tell me your full name and spell it? Nancy Crean: It’s Nancy Crean, C R E A N. NN: Okay, and your maiden name? NC: Pandel. P A N D E L. NN: Thank you very much, um, so first, tell me about where you grew up? NC: I grew up in Chicago. On the south side, very close to um, South Shore Country Club, Museum of Science and Industry, so I spent part of my summer at the beach in Chicago, and the other part of my summer here in Saugatuck at the Oval Beach. NN: Awesome, always on the beach. NC: Always on the beach. NN: [Laughs] Um, and did you have any siblings growing up? NC: I have one brother, and his name is Bob Pandel and he did basically the same thing as me other than he played sports. NN: Okay, alright. Um, do you remember the first time you came to Saugatuck? NC: Probably not because I was probably about 3 months old. NN: Okay. NC: [Laughs] NN: Then…. NC: …First memory? NN: Yeah, first memory. NC: First memories would probably be about 6 years old. NN: Okay. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 2 NC: So I came up with my family and we would come up every weekend starting in April all the way through November and we would spend two full weeks here during the summer when my, my dad had vacation, and we had a friend across the street, Mark Francis and the three of us would just play ball, we’d ride bikes, we’d play in the golf course when we weren’t supposed to. We would steal the golf balls off the fourth hole and watch the people look for them. Um, we, as we got older we met other people in town and we would do things with them, mainly playing like baseball or whatever. And later on going into town and hanging out in the middle of the street when they would close down the town, with the college kids. NN: Um, so you said you have a brother do you have any children? NC: I have two children, two girls, Jennifer and Kelly and they both came here from the time they were born also. We spent more time here because I was a teacher, so I was able to come you know for weeks at a time during the summer, so they were able to enjoy a lot more things than we were. And I have grandchildren who also do the same thing and they were very lucky because they could spend just as much time, but they got to enjoy you know the arts and the swimming and the sailing and everything else, you know because we did more things then. NN: Right, wonderful. Okay, so take me back, were step back for a second. NC: Okay. NN: Tell me how and when did you family first come to the Saugatuck area? NC: Um, my father had hay fever and so they used to go up to Petoskey for some reason it was better up there and they would stop here in Saugatuck on the way because they had some relatives here and eventually my grandfather and grandmother decided to buy a home here in 1930 and they settled here and they did have friends and relatives that lived here [pause] for the summers. So I think that’s what brought them here. NN: Wonderful, and what were your grandparents names? NC: It was Frieda and Rudolph Pandel. NN: Okay, and your parents’ names? NC: My parents’ names were Ernest and Ada Pandel. NN: Very good, thank you. Um, and so it sounds like, it kind of became a family tradition to come to Saugatuck. NC: Very much so. NN: Yes. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 3 NC: Very much so, everybody loves it here and we have absolutely no intentions of selling the house or anything. The kids don’t want to divide it up, they want to keep coming here as we are now. NN: Wonderful, and what is the address of the house? NC: The address is 565 Campbell Road. NN: Okay, and can you describe it a little bit, as it currently is? NC: Yes, it is a small two bedroom, um it has a living room, a kitchen, one bathroom, and a screened in porch and a basement. NN: Okay, and what sort of condition is it in? NC: Um, it’s in very good condition, we maintained it over the years, we still have the original windows the original plumbing or, um, like sinks and bathtub, um, it’s the original wood floors, original wood, um, woodwork and it’s still the same color it was, when they bought it. NN: SO it truly feels like stepping back in time. NC: It is, I have, I have a picture from my when my grandfather bought it was, its dark brown like stain with white. Exact same. Hasn’t changed. NN: That’s wonderful, that’s really cool. Um, tell me a little bit more about some of your other experiences as a child coming to Saugatuck. [00:05:06] NC: Okay! Um we spent when we were here we spent almost every day at the beach. NN: Okay. NC: Or, or going through the woods back behind um, on Campbell road if you go north, it’s the woods between Campbell and Perryman and we would explore through there and we’d swing on the vines and whatever, um, we did not have a boat so we did not do any boating when I was a child, um, we swam all the time we went to town, rode bikes, all of those things. My parents didn’t have a lot of money so they didn’t enroll us in sailing or anything like that so it as basically, being kids. You know, and having the freedom to come and go as you pleased, you know and there were no curfews you know, your parents didn’t worry about you, you could, you know, be out, you know doing things that, well you should be doing. NN: That kids do right? NC: Exactly. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 4 NN: Yes. NC: Climbing trees, you know things we wouldn’t be doing in Chicago, because we did have access to that. NN: There wasn’t a space, right? Were you mostly spending this time with your family or did you have friends here as well? NC: We had, just the boy across the street and I had one girl that moved in. NN: Okay. NC: And then we hung around some the guys in town. So I didn’t meet a lot of girls until I was older. So it was mostly boys. NN: Mostly boys. NC: Which worked out well. NN: That’s okay. [Both laugh] NN: Um, so even when you were fairly young would your family ever sort of pack and head into Saugatuck, the village center or did you stay out close to the lake? NC: No, well during the day we were at the beach but in the evenings we would go into town and walk around and you know, visit with people that were selling everything, and we knew Mr. Francis who owned a grocery store. NN: Okay. NC: They’re the ones who lived across the street from us, so we would go into his store to do grocery shopping. NN: Okay, alright. NC: That little teeny store. NN: Do you recall any of the other restaurants or businesses that you would, frequent? NC: You know what, um, the only restaurant that we used to go was, it was a hamburger place, I’m trying to, I can’t think of the name. It was behind where the, its M and M’s now…. NN: Oh, right. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 5 NC: …but it used to be, I can’t remember what the name of it was. NN: Uh, tasty treat or something? At one point? NC: Yeah, that was, that was tasty freeze but right behind it where the breakfast place is now. NN: Mhm. NC: There was a restaurant that had hamburgers and I can’t remember the name of it. NN: That was on Blue Star, right? NC: It was on Blue Star but it was behind the tasty freeze. So I think, its, I, I don’t know what the name of it is now. I don’t think its WayPoint. NN: No, um, okay. When you, do you recall, um, uh, being at the house and you know, what kind of food would you guys eat? . NC: Um, my mother, my mother would make dinner before we went to the beach. She would prepare everything so when we came home from the beach, and we took our baths and got organized she would serve dinner within 20 minutes of the time we got home. NN: Wow, okay. NC: Yes, so she made homemade dinners every single day. I know she, she was quite the woman. [Whispers] I don’t do that. NN: But uh, apparently cooking was something she was passionate about? NC: She, well, well, we had to eat. NN: Well yes, and people get hungry. NC: And she did not mind cooking you know so, it was very hot because it’s a small cottage but, it worked. NN: Okay, um, [pause] so as you grew older into your teenage years, do you have specific memories of coming up…. NC: …I do…. NN: …that’s a little bit different than a young childhood’s experience. NC: I do, I brought up friends when I was a teenager so then we had, were able to go to the beach by ourselves and there was lots and lots of college kids and teenagers and they, you’d sit together so you �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 6 didn’t have to sit with your parents which was really nice, and I went to the, the um, festival, the rock festival that they had here. NN: Okay. NC: I attended that. That was really interesting. NN: Do you remember which year that was? NC: It was in like ’69? Maybe? NN: Okay, there were a couple of them in the late 60’s. NC: Yeah I believe it was in ’69. NN: Okay. NC: Alice Cooper was there. NN: Okay. NC: So, I believed it was around ’68 or ’69, right around the time Woodstock happened. NN: Yep. NC: So, it was like a mini one, but my parents allowed us to go and…. NN: …So they knew that’s where you were going? NC: They knew we, they dropped us off!. NN: Alright!. NC: They dropped us off and then we hitched a ride. We actually hitchhiked back to the house and my parents never even asked a question. That’s what I said they, you know, it was a different world back then. You know, and when I was probably in my early teens, um, that’s when all the college kids would be there and they’d gather around where Marro’s is and Coral Gables and they’d have to close down the town because there was so many of them, and they’d just kind of hang out, and that’s what we did. There was also a dance, it wasn’t the Pavilion it’s where um, Mermaid is now, that used to be a big warehouse at one time, and they had dances, teen dances there. That you could go to, and we did that in the evenings on like Saturday nights, which was a lot of fun, so…. [00:10:10] NN: About what year would that have been? �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 7 NC: That probably was somewhere between ’67 and ’69. NN: Okay. NC: …because that would’ve been, let’s see, let me think. Yes, it would’ve been the summer of ’67 or ’68, because I remember the friends I brought up with me. NN: They were all friends from back in Chicago? NC: They were, yes, and they loved it here. They still come up with me by the way. NN: Good! That’s excellent! Uh, so what else do you remember about the concert? The rock concert? NC: The concert!. NN: Yes!. NC: It was very interesting, there were a lot of drugs, lot of smoking, um, people were just enjoying themselves, lots of dancing, music was great! You know, it was a beautiful day, didn’t rain so it was very very nice…. NN: That makes a big difference when you were in a field, right? NC: Yes, yes. It was, it was, I had never been to something like that, I went to an all-girl catholic school back home, and so we were very conservative and it was like, very interesting to me, it opened my eyes to a lot of different things because they were doing many things that I had never seen before. So, kind of introduced me to what college would be like. NN: Yes [Both laugh] Do you recall any of the other performers that? NC: I don’t. Alice Cooper sticks out in my mind because he became famous, so. NN: Right. He was there. NC: Right. In fact, my cousin who lived in Fennville, he was one of his road managers. Alice Cooper. Yes. Which is very cool. NN: Oh! That’s fascinating. NC: Yes! Very cool. NN: I bet I would have some good questions for him too. NC: He passed away [laughs] He just passed away two years ago, I know, you missed it!. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 8 NN: Um, yeah, we’ve heard, we’ve heard several people, you know have memories of that concert depending on their, perhaps, level of sobriety. NC: Right, I was going to say depending on their age. Because I was probably about 14, 15 years old so I was a lot younger. NN: You were younger then. NC: Yes, yes. NN: Okay interesting, and even in a conservative Catholic household…. NC: Yes!. NN: …it was no questions asked over the concert? NC: Nope, nope. I don’t think they had a clue, what they were dropping us off at. To be perfectly honest, and when we came home we really didn’t tell them anything about it, and they passed away a few years ago and they still didn’t know. [Laughs] Life is good. NN: Yes, that’s great. NC: So but, no, it was great, it was very very interesting being there, it was, it was something different you know and it was nice that you could come to a small town like this and have something like that…. NN: Right…. NC: …and Saugatuck has always been a place where you can come have things that were different, then many other places and I think that’s one of the draws here. NN: Yep. NC: I really do. NN: I agree, I think a lot of other people would agree with you as well. Um, did you ever during the summers as a teen or young adult did you ever, sounds like you always came here for vacation, did you ever, ever have a summer job here? NC: I didn’t, no, I had summer jobs back home. NN: Okay, that’s fine. Um, do you recall then, as, as you were getting older were there other restaurants or businesses or places you used to hang out? NC: Uh, no. No, we basically stayed close to home. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 9 NN: Stayed close, and on the beach right? NC: Right, on the beach or in town just enjoying, you know, the crowds basically. NN: Did you ever have a reason to come to Douglas? NC: Yes, there as a really good bakery here. [Laughs] NN: Oh! Okay!. NC: There was a really good bakery, it was next to where the catholic school used to be. NN: Okay, down Center Street, yep!. NC: Yes, yes they made really good butter crust bread. So, and we would, there would be baseball games that you could watch too, in the park…. NN: [speaking over NC] At the Pet…what is now Beery Field. NC: Exactly. NN: Okay, okay. NC: So but other than that I don’t think we did, we’d walk a lot my brother and I rode bikes everywhere, so we, we rode all the way through, down the hills and around Saugatuck and Douglas so. NN: Do you recall, especially if you were on a bike, um, ever encountering motorcycle groups? NC: Oh gosh, yes! . NN: Okay! . NC: Oh yeah, that’s, well the town went through many different changes, it was the motorcycles came in and then, um, when the gay population first starting came, coming in it was, oh, trying to think of the name of the place right as you’re going into Saugatuck, it’s called the blue something-or-other. NN: Blue Tempo. NC: Yes! Yes. There, there was a lot of different changes going on, things, again, that you never saw before. You know, it was very very interesting, and um, so the town went through different changes and because when I was a child, it was very family oriented and then it, it went to the college kids and then it went to I believe the motorcycle gangs were first, and then I believe the gay population started to come in and you know, bring their culture because back then it was very different because they were um, trying to, um, how could I say this, they were a little more flamboyant. You know where as now, everybody’s the same, which is the way it should’ve been a long time ago, but it was you know, different �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 10 culture. So you got that, and then it went back to the family, which is really interesting, it’s a full circle, because now, you know if you go to the beach, there was, as you sure you, you might, I don’t know if you remember this, where there was the gay part of the beach where you had to pay and there was nudity and everything else down there, and now, I mean it’s all families, you know and everybody just intermingles and gets along and its, it’s awesome, you know? And that’s the thing I think is so cool about Saugatuck because it’s such a great area for everything, and everyone!. [00:15:40] NN: Yes. NC: So. But yes, there’s been many different changes. Motorcycle gangs were interesting. You’d see like, you know, a hundred of them parked in front of the Sand Bar, you know, because that was what their favorite bar, you know and it was loud you know and it didn’t scare people away but I don’t think families came as much. NN: Well, and I guess if the motorcycle groups, gangs, had, had their space everybody else had space around them. NC: Exactly. NN: Okay, alright. NC: Exactly, exactly. You know it didn’t stop our family from coming into town, to walk around and everything we, we continued doing everything the same our entire life. So…. NN: Do you ever recall when the motorcycle gangs would roll in or roll out of town? NC: Oh, the sound? NN: Yes. NC: Oh my gosh, yes. It was, it was noisy it was kind of like the cigarette boats now [laughs] when you hear them going, but it was much closer. Yes, because they had like the big hogs, I mean they had they huge motorcycles you know, and they were, they were large men you know, they had, looked scary and in sure they weren’t scary, they were just normal people that just wanted to do their thing, but, you know it’s just different then what we had before. NN: Right, and very noticeable. NC: Exactly. Exactly, because I’m 65, no, I’m 66 [laughs] . NN: You look great. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 11 NC: Well thank you, so, so I’ve experienced a lot of different changes. I think more, more changes during my lifetime than any other time, in Saugatuck, you know, because, I think when my grandparents bought it, I think it was very much a resort town, like, um, my mother-in-law when she was 17, took a bus here and stayed at one of the hotels because she had heard that it was a fun place to go. NN: How old do you think she was when she did that? NC: She was 17. NN: Okay, okay. NC: She is now, she lives with us, she’s 92. NN: Wow. [Both laugh] NN: Alright, so, this is all fascinating. Um, you know as you kind of already pointed out, the, the gay culture…. NC: Yes…. NN: …kind of, kind of grew or became more um, less underground…. NC: ..Right!. NN: …perhaps? So, when do you, do you recall when you first kind of became aware of that? NC: Um, I was probably, I believe I was married so it had to be in the ‘70s maybe late ‘70s because I think my children were already born and I, I, remember one incident, it was the Fourth of July and there was um, probably 4 or 5 gay men out in front of the, where the washroom is in Saugatuck and one of them was dressed in a wedding gown and it just and it was just really cute, and they were, they were adorable you know but it was just so bizarre and my kids were like, ‘what’s going on?’ You know? You know, and we were always very open, we explained to them everything, they were, they were very accepting about everything because you know we had friends who were gay and everything so it was no big deal. But, it was so flamboyant, I mean it was just like something that was like in your face, you know but it, it changed. I mean it, it, which is wonderful you know because now I think our gay population is, what about 40%? You know, which is wonderful and, like I said many of my friends are gay, I had gay friends when I was young too though, so. NN: So um, when you just, when you say that it was flamboyant, was it mostly in their style of dress? Such as wedding gowns? �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 12 NC: It was in their style of dress, it was in the way they acted, um, they were very physically showing that they were gay, you know they had no qualms about it which, which they should’ve been able to because heterosexual people are, but it wasn’t accepted back then. NN: Right. NC: That, that was the difference, so they were making um, a statement you know which I think was probably a really good thing because people got, like anything else, anything that’s different, once you get used to seeing it, it’s no longer different. It’s every day, you know? And like you said when they came out of the closet, which should’ve happened a long time ago, I think people just became very accepting of everything, so, which is really nice. But I think that was their way, I think it’s, the way with anything that’s different, you have you to kind of put it in people’s faces and put it out there so they see it, and they recognize it, and then from there you kind of just tame it down to normalcy. NN: Yeah, you mentioned the Blue Tempo as a, as a destination. [00:20:02] NC: Yes. NN: What else do you recall about the Blue Tempo? Did you ever go there? NC: I did not. NN: Did you know people who went there? NC: I did know people who went there, but I did not, so and I remember also um, what’s the name of the resort? The hotel, right on Blue Star? NN: Uh, The Dunes? NC: The Dunes, yes, I knew many people, my daughter [Laughs] my daughter is 40, she’s 41 now but when she was younger she hung around with some people that were gay and she went there, and it was a really interesting story when she came home that night. I was like ‘Really?’ but it was, you know it was, like it’s just a different way of life. NN: And it’s a safe space for them. NC: It’s a very safe space, and I don’t, I don’t hear about The Dunes anymore so I don’t know whether or not it’s, it’s still a destination, I’m not sure, because you know everything is acceptable now. You know, you can go to any hotel it doesn’t matter, you know but I don’t know if they still, do they still have their bar and dancing, and? NN: Yeah, it still very much a destination for that community. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 13 NC: It is. I did have a friend who, who made a reservation there that was not gay [Laughs] NN: Okay, that may have been a bit of a surprise. NC: Their, their stories were hysterical. NN: Yes, but everybody’s perspective is different…. NC: Exactly…. NN: …and it can be very eye opening…. NC: …It is!. NN: In one of the other interviews, as part of this project was with a couple of owners from The Dunes Resort…. NC: …Yes. NN: and, and that’s part of why this whole project is so valuable, is to get all these different points of view…. NC…Right…. NN: …Of the same time period…. NC: Right, right…. NN: to really stich that…. NC: [speaking over NN] Now are the same owners, do they still own that? NN: I believe they sold it recently. Within the last…. NC: …well I know they were older…. NN: Yeah, yeah, but they’re still around. NC: I know. NN: Which is good. NC: I didn’t know if they still owned it or not. NN: Yes. Um, so [pause] you mentioned the different phases kind of…. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 14 NC: …Yes. NN: In the community. The college students came first. Do you recall anything else about when the town would be shut down for college weekends? NC: I mean they, they had to shut it down because you literally could not move. You could not move through town, you couldn’t bring a car through because there was so many kids in the streets. You know, it was, it was just really fun and I mean, I was young, I was probably 15 or 16 years old and they were, you know 18 to 21, you know so they were a lot crazier then I was then but I loved it, it was so much fun. Just being there, and my parents again, would drop me off you know at the corner, and then we would walk home so we would have to walk down Blue Star and go all the way around to the other side because the Ferry would stop running, at 9 or 10 o’clock so that didn’t help us. NN: Right, so these were late nights? NC: They were late nights, yes and you didn’t worry about walking around. You know and even with my own children, they had a lot more freedom here than they did back home. Growing up in, they grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, but you know we would allow them to stay out, they’d be out till 2 in the morning with their friends you know, they’d be down at Douglas beach, climbing over the fence you know to go down there, you just didn’t worry. NN: Yeah. NC: You know, and nothing ever happened you know, luckily. So, we were very very lucky. I don’t know if we’d do that with the grandkids now [laughs] It’s a little different now, you know because you hear different things that are going on, so, but that’s just the world. NN: Yeah, yep. Do you recall, even though you were younger do you remember any of the destinations, or that, that these college students would frequent? Or was, were they just in the street. NC: It was, they were in the street. They were, it was right by Coral Gables. That whole area like Marro’s, Coral Gables, um, whatever that store is Good Goods or whatever it is, I always call it Home Goods since we use that name now. But that whole area, those streets were just filled with kids you know so, and there weren’t many adults around, very few. There were police, they brought in the state police, they had brown uniforms on I believe, or whatever color they were. So, they were walking around to take care of the people that were really intoxicated or on drugs, because drugs were big thing back then. NN: They were? NC: Huge thing. Right. That was, that was, very, it was just in the ‘60’s you know, so you got the flower children. NN: Right. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 15 NC: And the college kids were very out spoken back then. NN: Yeah, well that was…. NC: [Over NN] Kent State, Vietnam…. NN: …It was a, uh, sort of a tenacious time, right? NC: It was! It really really was you know and like I said, being from my Catholic school I was not involved in a lot of that so, when I came here it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of different things that I could see. NN: Okay. Hmm, which, what was the name of the school that you went to? NC: I went to Aquinas…. NN: …Okay. NC: Which was right in Chicago. NN: Okay, alright. Um, [pause] did, thinking again just sort of real quick about the crazy college times, did it seem like the Police were in control of the situation? [00:25:02] NC: Oh god no!. NN: Definitely not? NC: Oh god no, no [laughs] No there was no control, they were just crazy. I mean it was just liquor out on the streets and people running around, yelling, and just having a great time. You know what, but I think what the Police did was they contained it to the area. NN: Oh, okay. NC: So it didn’t move outwards into the residential area. NN: Kind of keeping an informal perimeter sort of thing. NC: Right, right. Do you know because they didn’t want it to go into the residential area where the families were living? NN: Right. NC: So, but it was all in the downtown area. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 16 NN: Okay, alright, um, so, your family still comes…. NC: …we do…. NN: To Saugatuck, yes? NC: Yes. NN: How many people are in the family now? . NC: Okay, um, in my family let’s see there my husband and I, you have my mother in law, two girls, two guys, 1, 2, 3, there’s 11 of us and my brother has 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, he has 13. So, and we share the cottage, I get a week, he gets a week. NN: Okay. Alright, because I was going to say if there is only 2 bedrooms, that’s a lot of people. NC: Right, right. We, we tag team and even with my family, when they come up we kind of alternate. Like my husband will not stay if all the kids are coming up, he and my mother in law go home because then it’s a little too chaotic for my mother in law at 92. NN: Absolutely. NC: You know but, but I will be there with like the grandkids and everything. My oldest grandson is 21 so he works and is in college so he doesn’t come up as much. But he’s the one that spent most of his life up here in the summers. NN: Okay, alright. NC: He spent his, almost the entire summer here with me, and he was the one that was involved with like, he went to art colony took classes, he went did sailing, he did swimming here, he had lots of friends around here, local friends so, his, his life during the summer really revolved around Saugatuck, so…. NN: That’s great. NC: It is, it’s really nice and it was nice that I could be there to be with him the whole time. NN: Sure, can you tell me just a little bit about your mother in law, at age 92 she’s been coming here for quite a while. Okay. NC: She has! She loves the beach too, she’s a beach person. She grew up in Hyde Park…. NN: Okay. NC: In Chicago and so she also spent her summers on the beach there. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 17 NN: Okay. NC: So, and we have a home now in Florida too, so we, we winter and we spend time on the beach there. Hence, hence the wrinkles! [Laughs] NN: Good looking wrinkles. NC: As it, that’s what happens when you’re in the sun too much. NN: What is her name? NC: Her name is Imogene and her last name is Craen. . NN: Okay, same spelling. NC: Yes, exactly. Yes and she’s, she’s been with us for um, she’s been living with us for 4 years. NN: Okay, alright. NC: So, but she came up here with my mom and dad a lot, after her husband passed away. So she spent a lot of time up here too with my parents. NN: Wonderful!. NC: Yeah, yeah. I mean life is good. NN: That’s great, that’s great. Um, so I guess looking a little long range now into the future, just thinking about it. You know, what are your hopes for the future of Saugatuck and this area? . NC: You know what, I like the direction it’s gone in. It’s, it’s very very nice, I don’t like the Douglas road now, but [Laughs] other, other than that, I really have no complaints I think that its, it’s become a very um, I love the arts center, um, I love the plays, there’s so much culture here that you can utilize. It’s almost like a mini Chicago. I feel like when I come here, you know, you can be exposed to almost anything and the people that have moved in, their homes are absolutely gorgeous I mean you drive anywhere throughout the town and everything is kept up beautifully. You know, so I am hoping that it will continue on that way, we won’t have our drips like we did in the past you know where things have fallen down a little bit, you know and I’m hoping that we’re going to continue on this path because it’s really nice, and it’s a great place people come here and they want to move here. You know, I don’t know how many of my friends have actually become residents here. So, I will never become a resident here because I, I like Florida and you know, whatever, and I do like Chicago my family’s back there so I will never live here full time but I spend a lot of time. NN: But summer. NC: Right, and and the weeks that I’m not here because my brothers here, I go to Renee’s house. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 18 NN: Okay. [Both Laugh] and, and just for the record, who is Renee? What’s the relation? NC: Renee Zita, and that whole family, as you know is just everywhere so they’re wonderful people and they are my, like my sisters. NN: Okay, alright, and what is your actual relation to Renee? NC: As a friend. NN: As a friend, okay. NC: Yes, I, I met her mother, Ann when were very young, and in our, she was in her 50’s and I was in my 40’s, I think that’s very young, I’m sure you don’t. But, but we were best friends for many many years and, then I became friends with all the girls, and her brothers. NN: Okay, okay, and that was Ann Rinaldi? NC: Ann Rinaldi, yes. NN: Alright, okay, um, so keep in mind that…. [00:30:01] NC: Yes. NN: That this interview will be saved for a very long time. NC: Okay!. NN: Maybe accessed long into the future, so if someone were to listen to this, 40 or 50 years from now what would you like them to know? What else would you like them to know about the community, or about your family or? NC: That there’s no better place, and its home, and I was telling the girl that took my picture, I said you know when you come in from Chicago when you’re not a full time resident and you pass that Michigan sign on the expressway you kind of go ‘Ah’, its home, you know, and it is cause you come here and you basically forget anything that is going on in your life. You just, it’s really a nice place to be, and I can see why people want to live here because of that, because it is so nice and the community is wonderful, so, great people. NN: Good, um, this just prompted one other real quick question, uh, even thinking back to when you were, when you were very young, um, and coming here, did you always drive? Did your family always drive? �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 19 NC: We did always drive, yes, no air conditioning. My father drove here, when he was a little boy when they bought the cottage. NN: Okay. NC: They um, I don’t know what kind of cars they drove back then in the 1930’s but I remember him saying they used to have bring a lot of tires because there was a lot of um, gravel roads that they would have to travel and it would blow out the tires so they would have to change tires quite often, so but they had a, they had a car, my father had a car form the time he was born, so. NN: Okay, alright, because I know the Blue Star Highway was not completed until the late ‘30s. NC: Right. NN: And so, before that there were a lot of zigs and zags. NC: Yes. NN: Kind of to come up along the lakeshore. NC: Now when I, when I came up we took um, we took like 1220 and then we went to Red, Red Arrow or 31 whatever it was, there was no expressway. NN: Right. NC: So, it did take us from Chicago, took about 3 and half hours. NN: Okay, to make that trip. NC: Right. NN: Before the freeway. NC: Right, and no air conditioning. [Both laugh] NN: At least you were close to the lake!. NC: And luck, luckily there only, you know only two of us in the back seat you know with the line down the middle of the thing so you didn’t touch each other. NN: Of course, of course. Dou remember what kind of car that was? NC: It was um, the first one was a Mercury, like a big old blue Mercury in 1953. NN: Okay. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 20 NC: And from there we went to a Comet in 1962, you know, a little cars and after that we got the Chavelles. NN: Okay. NC: That’s when I could drive. NN: Alright. NC: I actually learned how to drive here too. NN: Oh, really? NC: I did! On Wiley, my father, Wiley and what’s the street where Burger King is? 64th? NN: 64th. NC: Okay, when I was really little my dad would put me on his lap on 64th when we’d go to Holland and he’d let us steer. NN: Okay. NC: When I got to be about 10, he took us to Wiley between um, Blue Star and the lake and he would let us drive, the car. [Both laugh] Up and down Wiley. You know, and then he taught us how to do a threepoint turn where the Miro is, you know that’s, so I learned how to drive here. NN: That’s fascinating. NC: I know! Yeah, so by the time I was 16 I was a, you know Hell on wheels. [Both laugh] NN: No problem. That’s great!. NC: So it’s been a great place for me. NN: Okay, couple more questions. Were almost done. NC: Yes! I’m not in any hurry!. NN: Okay, um, again thinking that you know, who knows who might listen to this in the future. NC: Right. NN: Do you have any thoughts or advise for a younger person who might listen to this tape? NC: Oh, come here as much as often. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 21 NN: Okay. NC: I mean, all the time, seriously because it just really refreshes you and makes you feel fantastic. NN: Very good. NC: Buy something here. [Laughs] . NN: Yes, yes. NC: When the prices are down. [Laughs] NN: From time to time, hopefully that happens. NC: Yeah well not now. [Laughs] NN: Not at the moment, no. Um, and I think the last question is just, is there any other stories you can think of, any other…. NC: I don’t think so, not that, not that I know right now. NN: Okay. NC: If I think of anything I can send them to you. NN: Please, you know where to find us. NC: But at this, at this point I can’t. I will talk to my brother and see if he as anything else. NN: Okay. The other thing, just so you know, as part of this whole project is that, um, we are also scanning photographs and that sort of thing, so that, and you can take them back…. NC: Right. NN: …were not keeping them. But this way we sort of have digital records and images that match the stories that we’re hearing. NC: Okay. NN: So um, if you come across any…. NC: I will look. NN: Scrapbooks, anything. NC: I have lots and lots of photos in my closet. �Nancy Crean - Interviewed by Nathan Neitering June 6 2018 22 NN: Okay. Alright, well Nancy thank you so much for sharing your time and your memories with me, this concludes our interview. NC: Thank you. [00:34:28] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-CreanN-20180606 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Crean, Nancy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-06 Title A name given to the resource Nancy Crean (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Nancy Crean's family bought a home in Saugatuck, Michigan in 1930. Throughout her childhood she remembers coming from Chicago to Saugatuck every weekend from April to November. She and her family still spend weekends in the family home throughout the summer. In her interview, Nancy remembers a massive influx of college aged people on holiday weekends in the 1960s. Nancy also recounts attending the 1968 music festival that was held in Douglas. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Neitering, Nathan (Interviewer) Van Orsdol, Mollie (Transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Motorcycle gangs Gay culture College students Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e634540e63d1ef61593f1da7a34462dd.mp4 1b1c39b59853d3c0f9be8c75b5e9de16 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/31c5a8dbab5facb96ae2a018b373ff0e.pdf f30c544eafde67bb025f6f36f320e528 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Frank Tichvon World War II Total Time: 22:52 Pre-War (00:33) • • Was born in Barry County, Michigan. Was drafted into the Army in October, 1941. Training (02:10) • • • • • Worked as a combat engineer. He was trained at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, and as they were some of the first trained there he found it very difficult. Spent 13 weeks in basic training (03:41) Was then sent to Fort Robinson, Arizona, for maneuvers, and after Pearl Harbor was attacked they were shipped to Fort Ord, California. The journey to Fort Ord took them 6 days and 5 nights by train. Active Duty (04:15) • • • • • • • • • • • • • • While they were at Fort Ord they build fake machine gun nests in case of an invasion by the Japanese. They were then shipped to Canada where they built 305 miles of the Alcan Highway. They then built around 300 miles of trails to oil wells in Canada, but eventually that was abandoned. The total time he spent in Canada was around 18 months. (04:55) He was then sent to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to specialized training for 6 weeks and was then sent to Scotland and then on to England. While in England, he spent more time training. A lot of their training dealt with mines, specifically clearing the mines. They also spent time fixing potholes and building bridges. (06:45) They had some casualties, but they were generally from accidents during construction rather than live fire. (08:05)During the Battle of the Bulge, they became surrounded and were cut off from the rest of the Army. His unit earned 5 Bronze Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation. (09:30) He was part of the 45th and 35th Combat Engineers. They were often limited on supplies He had a good opinion of the officers in his battalion Post-Service (13:10) �• • He got out of the service in October, 1945. He had a couple of good friends from the service with whom he kept in contact with. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_TichvonF Title A name given to the resource Tichvon, Frank (Interview outline and video), 200 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-12-07 Description An account of the resource Frank Tichvon was born in Barry County, Michigan, and served in World War II. Drafted in 1941, Tichvon served in the U.S. Army. He worked in Canada building the Alcan Highway and trails. He was later sent to England and then to the European continent, where he worked for a construction battalion whose job was to clear mines and construct bridges. He served in the Battle of the Bulge. He was discharged in October, 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tichvon, Frank Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Yanosik, Christine (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26d0e3a22a6c545504d0e59021de0a3c.m4v 648a7aaf8912e64964c8908833397eea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/241f1ca11efc099af46173a9c5fbb433.pdf 228d24f7da00e6d7ca1700bb6d6bfab8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Jim Oudman Vietnam War 1 hour 14 minutes 54 seconds (00:00:40) Early Life -Born in Palo Alto, California, on July 28, 1943 -Moved to Michigan at a young age -Born in Michigan because his father was stationed there during the war -Parents were originally from Michigan -Moved to Michigan in 1944 or 1945 -Father did woodworking -Worked for a lumber company -Did home repairs and cabinetry -Graduated from high school in 1962 and got a job (00:02:50) Volunteering for the Draft -One friend received his draft notice -Prompted Jim to volunteer for the draft -Presenting himself to the draft board instead of waiting for the notice or enlisting -Enlisting meant three or four years of service while a draft meant only two years of service -Volunteered for the draft in the fall of 1964 (00:04:15) Basic Training -Received basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky -Did a lot of training with tanks -Loading and firing the tanks’ guns -Caused hearing damage -Went on marches and had physical training before they ate breakfast -Drill sergeants forced the recruits to eat quickly or not at all -Strong emphasis on discipline -You were fine as long as you listened to orders from the drill sergeants -Helped give him some direction in life -If you disobeyed you were given extra guard duty or extra kitchen work -Usually lost leave time too -Never punished with physical violence -Basic training lasted eight weeks -Worked on tanks for the duration of basic training -Trained on the rifle range with the M-14 rifle (00:07:12) Awareness of Vietnam War -During basic training he could’ve been deployed anywhere -US presence in Vietnam had not reached full, wartime levels -There was the chance to be deployed to Vietnam -Didn’t follow the news about Vietnam that closely (00:08:03) Advanced Individual Training -During advanced individual training he saw some men training as part of a rifle team -Appealed to him -Tried out to join a rifle team and outperformed every man on the team -Sent to Fort Story, Virginia, for advanced individual training �-Near the coast -Received training for truck driving and material handling -Could be placed in the infantry if necessary -Heard his unit would be sent to Vietnam -Asked if he wanted to go to Sniper School -Knew if he went to Vietnam as a sniper he would be one man against several hundred -Declined the invitation -Assigned to the 565th Transportation Company -Jeeps, ten ton trucks, semi-trucks, tankers, ¼ ton trucks, ¾ ton trucks, and 2 ½ ton trucks -All stick shift vehicles (00:12:02) Deployment to Vietnam Pt. 1 -Deployed to Vietnam in October 1965 -Didn’t receive a leave home before deploying -Sailed on the USS General JC Brekinridge (AP-176) -Sailed out of Oakland -Had Army personnel, Navy personnel, and Marines on the ship -Took 21 days to reach Vietnam -Soldiers were put on kitchen duty or guard duty -He was assigned to guard duty -Passed under the Golden Gate Bridge (00:14:00) Arrivals in Vietnam -Remembers being off the coast of Vietnam -Four hours on guard duty and four hours off guard duty -At night he saw napalm explosions and tracer rounds -Marines made amphibious landing, and on the third day the soldiers went ashore -Watched a Huey fly over and fire rockets at targets -Went ashore in a landing craft -All he knew was the beachhead was secure -Ramp dropped and the soldiers got off into chest-high water -Went ashore at Cam Ranh Bay -Sandy and no piers (00:18:03) Establishing a Base – Cam Ranh Bay -Built a camp inland -Dug bunkers and filled sandbags -Set up wooden buildings -Navy construction battalions (“Seabees”) and Army engineers came to help build the base -Crushed rocks and used that to make a road -Rock shards damaged the truck tires -Lived in pup tents for a while then set up squad tents (20 soldiers per tent) -Made makeshift wall lockers out of wood -Had 105mm and 155mm howitzers firing at enemy positions across the bay -Experienced monsoon rains -Watched a solid sheet of water move across the bay and hit their camp (00:22:52) Convoys & Other Jobs Pt. 1 -A few days after landing at Cam Ranh Bay they started running convoys to other bases -Took sniper fire on the convoy runs -Drove to Nha Trang (about 20 miles from Cam Ranh Bay) -Traveled on established roads, so they drove at top speed -Helped evade enemy fire �(00:24:05) Booby Traps -Leftover mines at abandoned French barracks, so everyone stayed away from that place -Told about Viet Cong booby traps -Informed about punji pits, and pressure-triggered bullet traps (00:25:45) Convoys & Other Jobs Pt. 2 -Drove on quite a few convoys -Did a lot of jobs in Vietnam -Used a tanker to gather water -Used that water and empty gas drums to make a shower system (00:26:54) Base Security -Base was mostly secure at Cam Ranh Bay -Pulled guard duty at day and at night -Had trip flares for illumination -Viet Cong never tried to infiltrate the base during his time there -He was paranoid at first, and after three months adjusted to that feeling -Friend was stationed at a missile battery about seven miles away from his base -Drove over to visit him, and nothing happened -Unsecured road left him vulnerable to sniper fire and roadside bombs (00:29:57) South Korean Troops -Had South Korean and South Vietnamese troops at Cam Ranh Bay -South Korean soldiers guarded the fighter jets -Tough and intimidating men (00:30:47) Chemical Exposure Pt. 1 -Mixed napalm for bombs used on Phantom jets -Took some of it, balled it up and threw it into a fire to see what happened -Landed in the fire and made a small fireball -Produced napalm by mixing a chemical powder with gasoline -Air Force used Army personnel to help get tasks done -Exposure to napalm scarred his hands -Government used Agent Orange in his area -Trying to defoliate sides of the roads and create better lines of fire -Caused severe nerve damage to his legs -Has no feeling below his knees (00:33:25) Interactions with the Vietnamese -He was leery with of the South Vietnamese troops for a while -Went to a Vietnamese barber -Never knew who was friendly -The barber used a straight razor -Could have easily slit Jim’s throat -Civilians sold bottles of ice cold water and Pepsi for 50 cents a bottle -Learned to “chew” the liquid before swallowing -Sometimes the Viet Cong put crushed glass in the bottles, and it was fatal -Saw it happen to soldiers -Usually encountered the Vietnamese in Nha Trang -On one convoy they accidentally hit a boy on a bike and killed him -Incidents like that happened all the time (00:37:00) Deployment to Vietnam Pt. 2 -Had no dramamine on the ship and they hit rough seas -He got sick and ran for the bathroom �-Guards were blocking the bathroom -They allowed Jim to enter the bathroom and throw up -He vomited in front of a colonel and a major -Had no appetite for a week after landing at Vietnam (00:39:05) Living Conditions in Vietnam -Ate C-Rations canned in 1941 -Tried Vietnamese food -Went into a restaurant in Nha Trang and ordered a pork dinner -It wasn’t good, but it wasn’t bad -Street vendors sold meat covered in flies -In larger cities the Vietnamese had buildings -Hotel rooms in Vietnam had a bed and a hole in the ground that served as a toilet -Most people lived in shacks made of corrugated sheet metal (00:41:52) Drugs & Prostitution in Vietnam -Aware of drug use and prostitution in Vietnam -There were a lot of prostitutes in Nha Trang and around the base at Cam Ranh Bay -He didn’t smoke marijuana, because smoking didn’t appeal to him -Got caught smoking as a boy and his father made him smoke an entire cigar -Never wanted to smoke again -Warned about venereal diseases -One man had venereal diseases all the time (00:43:12) Politics of the Vietnam War -Knew that it was a war and not a “police action” -Politics limited the actions of soldiers -Rules of Engagement: Only allowed to shoot in defense -Had to break the rules just to survive (00:44:15) Enemy Contact -Viet Cong shot at convoys from positions in the jungle -Hard to pick out targets -Remembers walking through a village and bumping into a Vietnamese man -He took a few steps then heard a scuffle behind him -A South Korean MP and American MP had apprehended the man -South Korean MP pistol whipped the man -Found explosives on the Vietnamese man and a detonator -Planned on getting near the US troops and blowing himself up (00:46:45) Mission to Da Nang -Went up to Da Nang for one mission -Flew up there instead of driving -Delivered some supplies to the base -Usually didn’t go that far for missions (00:47:36) Morale & Relationships between Soldiers -Men formed cliques on the base -Didn’t apply during convoys -Worked together when the situation called for it -Some officers were good and others were incompetent -Some of the officers were overzealous with their command -Remembers a soldier coming into his tent, drunk, and firing his rifle into the air -An MP wrestled the rifle away from the man -Got drunk on 200 proof grain alcohol �-Had a refrigerator from the ship and had 3.2% beer -One soldier had his father send over a case of fifths of liquor (00:52:25) R&R -Sent to Nha Trang for his R&R -Given one week of R&R -Stayed in a hotel in the city -Guarded by South Vietnamese troops -High walls topped with glass surrounded the hotel -Didn’t feel any different than being on a base -He actually felt less safe and relaxed being in the hotel in Nha Trang (00:54:48) End of Tour & End of Service Pt. 1 -Stayed in Vietnam for one year -Had four months left of his enlistment -Got an early discharge from the Army (00:55:05) Memories from Vietnam -Remembers pulling guard duty overlooking a valley -Saw two Phantom jets fly over -Eerily quiet for a moment then the sonic boom hit him -Viet Cong tricked children into being suicide bombers -Taught them to get a crowd of US troops around them and then pull a detonation cord -Children didn’t know what they were doing -Knew a man killed in a situation like that -Ordered to shoot first and ask questions later -He was riding in a fuel tanker and the driver lit up a cigarette -Made a hard stop and gas splashed on them -Fortunately, the cigarette didn’t ignite the gasoline -Got in a minor car accident -Wound up with a chunk of glass in his forehead (00:59:40) Chemical Exposure Pt. 2 -Agent Orange caused nerve damage in his legs -Patches of his skin are losing feeling -Has lost feeling in his fingers -The VA has finally recognized Agent Orange-related health issues in 2008 (01:00:25) End of Tour & End of Service Pt. 2 -Flew out of Cam Ranh Bay on a C-130 -Flew to Saigon to wait for an airliner -Saw a Vietnamese Beatles cover band -Spot on impression -Flew back to the United States in an airliner -Quite a few men from his unit left at the same time -Held their breath until they got out of Vietnamese airspace -Landed at San Francisco -Encouraged to reenlist -It didn’t appeal to him, so he declined -Stayed in San Francisco for a day -Flew to Grand Rapids, Michigan -Parents picked him up from the airport (01:03:50) Antiwar Protests -He flew in his uniform �-Protesters in San Francisco spit on him and the other soldiers -Came as a shock because the Army didn’t warn them about antiwar sentiments -Frustrating experience -People treated him normally on the cross country flight (01:05:15) Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder -Suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder when he returned from Vietnam -He had nightmares, flashbacks, and unconscious reactions -Didn’t know what to call it at the time -Army didn’t warn him about the possibility of PTSD -Goes to group therapy sessions with other Vietnam War veterans -Chance to talk with other men that had similar experiences -Felt a sense of isolation when he first came home (01:06:54) Life after the War -Got home in the middle of June -Relaxed for a bit then got a job -Went to Kendall School of Art & Design in downtown Grand Rapids -Used the GI Bill to pay for his education -Studied there for three years -Got into advertising and illustrating -Started with 30 people in the class -By the time he graduated there were only six or seven students remaining -Got a job at an advertising agency -Worked as a graphic designer -Still does brochures, business cards, and corporate designs part time (01:09:22) Readjusting to Civilian Life -Went to see the film The Deer Hunter with his brother -Came out of it feeling tense -Whenever he sees a picture of a jungle he can still feel it and smell it -Friend asked him what it was like to kill a Viet Cong soldier -Jim told his friend to shoot the can they’d set up as a target -The friend shot it and said it felt like just shooting a target -Jim replied that it felt the same way shooting an enemy soldier in combat (01:11:03) Weapons in Vietnam -Assigned the M-16 rifle after being in Vietnam for a while -Had originally had the M-14 which fired a .308 round -Viet Cong had the AK-47 which fired a .30 caliber round -Powerful enough to shoot through bricks -One shot, one kill type of weapon -The M-16 fired a .223 round which meant it took three shots to kill someone -Able to carry more ammunition, but it required more ammunition to kill -Suffered from technical problems -Had to clean it every ten shots -Didn’t have to do that with the M-14 (01:13:30) Reflections on Service -Taught him discipline at a young age -Turned 21 years old in Vietnam -Gave him experience -Able to connect with other Vietnam War veterans -Has visited the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC, and it was a difficult thing to see � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_OudmanE1927V Title A name given to the resource Oudman, Edwin James (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-02-25 Description An account of the resource Jim Oudman was born on July 28, 1943, in Palo Alto, California, but he grew up in Michigan. In the fall of 1964 he volunteered for the draft. He received basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, then received advanced individual training at Fort Story, Virginia. While at Fort Story he learned how to drive trucks and handle supplies, and was assigned to the 565th Transportation Company. In October 1965 he deployed to Vietnam with the 565th and got there via the USS General JC Brekinridge. He landed at Cam Ranh Bay and helped establish a base there. For a year he went on convoys to nearby bases to deliver supplies with most convoys going from Cam Ranh Bay to Nha Trang. After a year in Vietnam he returned to the United States and with four months left in his enlistment he was discharged early. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oudman, Edwin James Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cfe0a675fb59828ccabe188f8581fb7a.m4v 05df1c9f6f83a66dba3c228ca844ecb1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da4f9671dac447a7bbc02cfe3e02b6df.pdf ce30d8d32341fd478dfea85f3f9f424c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project David Sebuck Kosovo War & Iraq War 52 minutes 51 seconds (00:00:05) Key Details -Born in May 1969 -Fought in the Kosovo War and the Iraq War -Served in the Marine Corps and reached the rank of lieutenant colonel (00:00:28) Enlisting in the Marines -Wanted to become a commercial airline pilot -One way would be to go into the military -Marines offered him the chance to get into Flight School (00:01:12) Training Pt. 1 -Went through Officer Candidate School while in college -After graduating he entered active duty with the Marines (00:01:20) Family Military Service -Father tried to serve in the Vietnam War, but was deemed unfit for service -His uncles served in World War II (00:01:38) Training Pt. 2 -Did six months of Officer Candidate School -Had to do four years of training before getting a deployment with the Fleet -Started out at Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida -Trained with the Beechcraft T-34 Mentor (prop-driven, single engined, military trainer) -Qualified to fly jets -Sent to Naval Air Station Meridian, Mississippi for Intermediate Training -Got selected to fly F/A-18 Hornet -Trained with them (00:02:36) Joining the Fleet -After four and a half years he got a Fleet assignment -Worked on being a Basic Wingman -Following the Flight Lead and learning how to become a Flight Lead -Flight Lead led missions (00:03:45) Adjusting to the Marines -Adjusted to taking orders and having a lack of choice in his deployments -Difficult moving his family around when he got a new assignment -Given only a matter of weeks to prepare for a deployment -Hard on him and his family (00:04:58) WESTPAC Deployment -Went on a WESTPAC (Western Pacific) Deployment -Assigned to Marine Aircraft Group 31 (MAG-31) -Operated out of Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort, South Carolina -Trained in Japan for six months and maintaining a presence in Southeast Asia (00:05:48) Kosovo War Pt. 1 -Joined the squadron and three months later was deployed to Aviano Air Base, Italy -Flew missions over Serbia -Maintaining peace in the region �-Knew that deployment was coming (00:06:20) Deployments Pt. 1 -The Iraq deployments came quick -Within two weeks he had to be ready to be deployed -On another deployment he was told on a Friday that he was being deployed -Only given ten days to get ready -The following Monday the Marines changed their mind -Emotional roller coaster -Deployments were hard on his younger children (00:07:54) Seeing the World -Got to see more of the worlds through the Marines -Saw Japan, Thailand, and South Korea as part of WESTPAC -Exposure to different cultures -Made him appreciate going home -Got to see the country and culture of Italy during the Kosovo War -Saw police with rifles at train stations -Bottled water was more prevalent than running water (00:09:38) Training Pt. 3 -As an F/A-18 pilot he had to train all the time -Evaluated after each training exercise -Went to Arizona to do tactical exercises and drop live munitions -Participated in Exercise Red Flag -Advanced aerial exercise out of Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada -Focused on preparing for specific missions -There was no air-air threats in Serbia and focused more on ground-air threats (Serbia and Iraq) -Learning how to fly with instruments and night vision goggles for night missions -Started off with the T-34 to learn how to fly -Flew the North American T-2 Buckeye -Intermediate training aircraft -Jet -Moved onto training with the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk -Single seat, subsonic carrier-capable attack aircraft -After training with the T-34, T-2, and the A-4 he finally began training with the F/A-18 Hornet -Most complex aircraft he had ever flown -Capable of air-air and air-ground missions (the 'A' F/A means attack) -Dual role aircraft -Could hit targets and defend itself -Has great capabilities as well as limitations (00:14:25) Kosovo War Pt. 2 -First combat mission was flown out of Taszar Air Base, Hungary in May 1999 -It was a night mission with four other Marine jets attacking Serbian targets -Took antiaircraft fire from Serbian forces -Flew at 20,000 feet and antiaircraft fire loses its potency at 10,000 feet -Serbs used SA-2 and SA-6 surface to air missiles -Remembers one getting close to his jet -Grew more confident and calm with each combat mission -First combat mission lasted 42 minutes -He held the rank of captain during the Kosovo War �(00:17:03) Service Between Wars -Promoted to the rank of major and served as a Flight Instructor in Pensacola, Florida -Rejoined the Fleet as an Assistant Maintenance Officer -Did six months of refresher training in the F/A-18 (00:17:35) Iraq War Pt. 1 -Deployed to Iraq and served on the ground as an air officer -Directed air support with seven other Marine officers -Coordinated with forward observers in the field -Started deployment at division headquarters -Reassigned to Regimental Combat Team 1 -Right after Blackwater USA contractors were attacked, killed, and burned on March 31, 2004 -Happened in Fallujah -Regimental Combat Team 1 needed help during the First Battle of Fallujah -Coordinated air support at night during the battle (00:19:27) Combat Missions Pt. 1 -Flew over 100 combat missions during his time in the Marines -Awarded a patch after his 100th mission and received nine air medals during his career -Eventually stopped thinking about combat missions -Probably flew around 150 combat missions during his career (00:20:04) Iraq War Pt. 2 -Another duty in Iraq was with the Operations Department -Made sure jets were flight ready, so the Marines could fly their missions -Worked with good, serious, and dedicated Marines -Controlled aircraft from a command post during the First Battle of Fallujah -Wanted to be in the city with the Marines, but had to his duty at the base -Insurgents attacked the base with rockets on a regular basis -Just did his job -Adjusted to getting attacked every day -Became a regular part of life -Decided he would either be fine, or he wouldn't -The attacks came at random, and thus death became random -As a pilot in Iraq he felt safe -Flew at 10,000 feet above the battlefield -Respected the helicopter pilots -They took a lot of fire and were the workhorse of the Marines -Remembers a Cobra gunship crashing inside the base during the First Battle of Fallujah -Fortunately, the pilot survived the crash -Had been friends with the pilot since David enlisted in the Marines (00:25:06) Friendships in the Marines Pt. 1 -Had friends in the Marines since he enlisted in the Marines -Made lifelong friends in the Marines -Bonded during their service -Maintains contact with many of the Marines he served with -Children are graduating together (00:26:20) Contact with Family & Downtime -During the WESTPAC deployment computers and email were relatively new -Mostly relied on telephones and used phone cards to call home -Some Marines had laptops that were incredibly costly at the time -Usually only had ten minutes of phone time �-During his first deployment in Iraq he read a lot -Younger Marines had portable DVD players -Had internet centers for the Marines in Iraq -Able to email family and do a primitive version of video chatting (like Skype) -Mail was still a common, and popular way for Marines to communicate in Iraq -His children sent him hand-drawn pictures -Got care packages from his family -Email was the most popular way of communicating with family -Getting actual mail provided more of a morale boost though -During WESTPAC he and his friends spent nights together -A lot of Marines took classes -Went sightseeing in the Asian countries -On his first Iraq deployment he didn't have a lot of downtime -Long days -Worked 16 to 18 hours -Worked and slept -During his second Iraq deployment he had shorter work days -Less Insurgent activity and hitting specific targets rather than full scale air campaigns -Worked 12 to 14 hours each day -Studied tactics -Did a lot of reading on his second deployment -Had no cable television in Iraq -Family sent seasons of TV shows to the Marines so they could catch up -Officers taught a variety of classes to the younger Marines -One officer taught a guitar course (00:31:34) Combat Missions Pt. 2 -Nothing that happened on combat missions ever surprised him -Always knew what to expect during a mission thanks to good intelligence (00:32:08) Different Cultures -Learned about different cultures on his deployments -Different priorities depending on different cultures -Even “western” countries differed from the United States in significant ways -Remembers talking to some Iraqis -Just wanted to be left alone and live their lives in peace -During the Kosovo War he and the other officers tried to study the conflict -Learned that it was caused by centuries of religious and ethnic tension -Strange to an American (00:34:03) Combat Missions Pt. 3 -Most memorable operations were combat missions -Saw the results of his missions -Made him appreciate life more -Wishes more Americans appreciated life or would take take action things they don't like (00:36:00) Deployments Pt. 2 -Spent three and a half years overseas during a 22 year career in the Marines -Did shorter deployments inside the United States -Training missions out west -First Iraq deployment lasted seven months, and second deployment lasted 12 months -Longer deployments were harder on his family -On the Iraq deployments he left in the fall and returned in the spring �-Missed Thanksgiving, Christmas, and birthdays -Fortunately, he got back for the births of his children (00:38:36) Life after Service -Teaches aviation now -Had enjoyed being a Flight Instructor in the Marines -Good feeling seeing Marines understand what he taught them -Had planned on retiring from the Marines, then the September 11th Attacks happened -Airlines weren't hiring and he decided to stay in the Marines -Got a master's degree in education before retiring from the Marines -Got a job at the West Michigan Aviation Academy as an instructor -Hard to adapt to being a civilian -Not as regimented -Fewer expectations and a looser schedule -Sets high expectations as a teacher and the students meet those expectations (00:43:10) Friendships in the Marines Pt. 2 -Maintains contact with his friends from the Marines -Some of them got jobs with airlines and offered him jobs as a commercial pilot -He declined, because he doesn't want to be away from his family for long times -One friend lives close to him (00:44:29) Veterans' Organizations -Not currently part of any veterans' organizations -Too busy with life at the moment -Interested in joining one, and might do it when he's older -Part of the Marine Officers Association (00:45:24) Reflections on Service -Taught him that you can do whatever you want if you set your mind to it -Taught him focus and discipline -Learned about teamwork, organization skills, and leadership skills -Marines taught him self-improvement and how to make himself a valuable part of an organization -Make plans and set goals for yourself -Shaped him as a person -Marines were a valuable part of his life -Never wanted to let down the people that depended on him -Taught him to try, and even if you don't succeed at least you tried -People want instant gratification without putting in effort -Set short term and adaptable goals for yourself -If one opportunity is lost then look for another one -People are willing to help you if you look, and ask, for it -Wouldn't change any part of his career in the Marines -Made some lifelong friends and it was a defining part of his life � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SebuckD1836V Title A name given to the resource Sebuck, David J (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-17 Description An account of the resource David Sebuck was born in May 1969. He enlisted in the Marines during college (c. 1987) and completed Officer Candidate School while in college. After graduating from college he entered active duty with the Marines. He completed four and a half years of Flight Training at Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida and at Naval Air Station Meridian, Mississippi. He joined the Fleet as an F/A-18 Hornet pilot and went on a WESTPAC (Western Pacific) training deployment and flew combat missions during the Kosovo War (c. 1999). He also did training missions inside the United States. He did two deployments during the Iraq War, serving on the ground helping coordinate air support during the First Battle of Fallujah on his first deployment and flew combat missions on his second deployment. After 22 years in the Marines he retired (c. 2009). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sebuck, David J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nurenburg, Garrett (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5d34d01fef9a10b207ecf4186844b22.m4v 06074182fbd010251bca845bee2900e1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e66a8a8003a1fe2ed2fe2c145455acf9.pdf c58899f5c74c20be2ee4a2105142f4fc PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Paul Wilt Cold War-Early 1960s 26 minutes 26 seconds (00:00:07) Early Life -Born in Fairmont, West Virginia on June 30, 1942 -Had a brother who is now deceased -Father worked and mother stayed at home -Played football, baseball, and wrestled when he was in high school (00:00:56) Enlisting in the Marines -Father had fought in World War II and brother also served in the military -Decided to enlist in the Marines in 1960 -Felt he had an obligation to serve his country -Considered going to college, but wasn't ready -Felt Marines were the best branch with the best training -Well prepared for combat (00:01:56) Basic Training -Leaving for basic training was emotional because he wouldn't see his family for a while -First few weeks of basic training were tough -Learned that he had a responsibility to himself and to the Marine Corps -Days started at 5 a.m. -Had 10-15 minutes to get dressed and get in formation -Ate breakfast, make bed, and get ready for drills and maneuvers -Days ended at 10 p.m. -Wakened by drill sergeants beating on something to wake up him and the other recruits -Remembers being forced to hold his M1 Garand rifle (~9 pounds) straight out from his body -Drill sergeants wanted to see how long the recruits could hold a rifle like that -Did push ups, chin ups, went on runs, and ran on obstacle courses -At first, the physical training was difficult, but he adjusted after a while -Received weapons training -Went on the rifle range and fired various weapons -Mostly the M1 Garand rifle, but also machine guns -Learned how to use hand grenades -Food was average during basic training, not too bad for the military (00:06:44) Assignments in the United States -Stationed at Marine Naval Air Station Norfolk, Virginia -Stood at a guard post, and allowed traffic in and out of the base -Sent to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina in 1962 for Infantry Training -Ran maneuvers in combat situations and learned how to react in various combat situations (00:08:10) Cuban Missile Crisis Pt. 1 -During the Cuban Missile Crisis he and the other Marines at Camp Lejeune boarded planes -Flown to a destination without knowing what the final destination was -Carried a 45 pound pack -Finally landed at a warm location -Given ammunition and grenades �-Found out that night that they were in Cuba at Guantanamo Bay -Saw tanks and demolition equipment -There were 200,000 Cubans ready to fight if war started -Expected 100,000 of those Cubans would stand and fight if challenged -Only two battalions of Marines against 100,000 enemy soldiers -Note: Two battalions is approximately 2,000 Marines -Scared, and didn't know what to expect -Knew they were outnumbered by the Cubans -Didn't know there were 25,000 Marines offshore ready to invade, supported by an armada of ships -Didn't know if the United States was going to war in Cuba, and thus a nuclear war with the USSR (00�:12:20) Friendships -Formed friendships in the Marines -Best friend in the Marines was from California -Good man -Liked to party -Spent a lot of time together, got in trouble together, and had a lot of fun together (00:13:15) Contact with Family -Adjusted to not seeing his family every day -Knew it was part of growing up regardless of military service -Didn't think about not seeing them because he had other things on his mind -Just hoped he would see them again (00:13:56) Downtime -Not much downtime while in the Marines during the Cuban Missile Crisis -Placed on temporary duty in 1963 -Golfed, went to clubs, and took liberty in the United States -Visited Wilmington and Raleigh, North Carolina while at Camp Lejeune -Got weekends off sometimes -Visited Baltimore, Maryland; Washington D.C.; and South Carolina (00:15:12) Cuban Missile Crisis Pt. 2 -Didn't leave Cuba until December 1962 -Didn't find out why they were in Cuba until November 1962 (a month after the Crisis) -Cubans had turned off the water to the American territory at Guantanamo Bay -Found out that there nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union in Cuba -Didn't find out how close the U.S. and U.S.S.R. were to war until years later -Glad to be back in the United States after the Cuban Missile Crisis -Didn't know if he would have made it home -Remembers carrying multiple bandoliers and at least a dozen grenades -Didn't want to run out of ammunition if he went into combat (00:18:33) End of Service -Considered making a career out of the Marines, but he had a wife and child -Didn't want to make them move around with him -Kept in touch with California friend from Marines after he got discharged (00:19:42) Reflections on Service -Lives in a great country -Too many people don't appreciate the freedoms they have -Lost a lot of friends in the Vietnam War -Military protects citizens' rights to protest and criticize the country -Doesn't feel that the military is given enough credit -Politicians need to listen to military leadership �-He would gladly serve again if necessary -Feels people aren't willing to fight for their freedoms � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WiltP1849V Title A name given to the resource Wilt, Paul L (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-12 Description An account of the resource Paul Wilt was born in West Virginia on June 30, 1942. He enlisted in the Marines in 1960 and after basic training received assignments in the United States. He was stationed at Marine Naval Air Station Norfolk, Virginia carrying out guard duties, and received infantry training at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He also went on temporary duty to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wilt, Paul L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wilt, Alexander (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ae2f7b76682972898fffdcb55e42cc4.m4v 772eea0b50aa58a23df24bf0b5d40914 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6707f37dcee7f832d7a3a306ae60fc8e.pdf 5b68945a040ec325567d43eb696e4315 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Clarence Szejbach Vietnam War 22 minutes 51 seconds (00:00:34) Early Life -Born in Traverse City, Michigan on September 19, 1948 -Had two older sisters -Father owned a meat market -Worked for his father and learned the family business (00:01:33) Getting Drafted -Father tried to keep him from getting drafted -Excited to get drafted -19 years old and had no fear -Saw it as an adventure -Not much going on in Elk Rapids, Michigan -Place where he grew up (near Traverse City) -Saw it as a chance to see the country (00:02:34) Training -Basic training was difficult, but he quickly adapted to it -He wasn't out of shape, but found the physical training a little difficult -Had to get up earlier than he normally did -A lot of discipline and a lack of freedom (00:03:29) Service with the 25th Infantry Division -Assigned to the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Infantry Regiment of the 25th Infantry Division -Operated in Tay Ninh Province with the division headquarters located in Cu Chi -Rice paddies and jungle -Served as an infantryman -Spent his first month as a rifleman going on patrols -Started carrying the radio for the platoon sergeant -Went on to serving as the radio operator for the platoon leader -Went on to serving as the radio telephone operator for the company commander -Enjoyed that duty, but it was dangerous (00:04:53) Losing His Right Hand -His unit was stationed at Fire Support Base (FSB) Crook near the Cambodian border -Guarding the area while the engineers built up the base -For about one month they conducted missions in the area around the base -High Viet Cong activity -On the night of June 5, 1969 the Viet Cong launched a human wave attack against the base -Note: Wave after wave of soldiers charging the position regardless of casualties taken -The American forces held off the enemy attack through the night -On the morning of June 6 they went out to see how much damage the attack caused -How many Viet Cong had been killed and how much damage the perimeter sustained -One militant had stayed behind to mount a suicide attack against patrols -The militant threw a few grenades at the patrol and opened fire with a rifle -Clarence picked up a live grenade and threw it away -Saved his unit, but lost his right hand in the process �(00:07:12) Recovery & End of Service -The grenade's explosion cost him his right hand and severed a major artery -Had to undergo vascular surgery in Vietnam -Couldn't travel on a pressurized aircraft until he fully healed -Took a small aircraft to Japan for further recovery -Stayed there for about 45 days to heal from his vascular wound -He was healed and mobile by time he got back to the United States -Given 30 days of leave to visit his family -Took 11 months to be discharged from the Army -Sent to Valley Forge Hospital, Pennsylvania for further recovery -Spent a few days in the hospital, then went home for 30 days, then returned to the hospital -Given a temporary prosthetic arm, discharged from the Army, and sent home (00:09:33) Coming Home -Experienced no negativity coming home -Probably would've experienced more antiwar sentiments in a larger city (00�:10:05) Medals -Received the Distinguished Service Cross for his heroism in Vietnam -Record problems stopped him from getting his medals -Name was misspelled and they had the wrong Social Security number -In 2012 a Veterans' Affairs representative reviewed his records -Discovered Clarence was owed a Purple Heart for his wounds sustained in Vietnam -Insisted that he get that changed -Led to him getting seven medals that he deserved -Including the Bronze Star and the Distinguished Service Cross (00�:12:15) Contact with Enemy Forces -In contact with enemy forces in Vietnam quite a bit -Flew a lot of “Eagle Flights” -Eagle Flight: Large air assault of helicopters -Went into a landing zone and searched the area for enemy troops -Didn't know if the landing zone would be taking fire, or not -Always on edge -Felt the United States was doing a good thing in Vietnam (00:13:27) Friendships Pt. 1 -Made some friends while he was in Vietnam -Soldiers in Vietnam normally did a one year tour -Usually didn't serve with the men you trained with -There was a constant rotation of soldiers out of Vietnam either from wounds or ending tour -Has four or five friends from Vietnam that he is still in contact with -Has since made contact with old comrades from his company -Was closer with the men that served in the command post -Some of the men he served with have since died (00:15:22) Contact with Home -Wrote letters to and received letters from home -He wasn't a big letter writer -Received mail on a daily basis -Wrote home every couple weeks -No telephones to call home with -Limited means of communication in Vietnam �(00:16:00) Life after the War -Busy with raising a family and working when Saigon fell on April 30, 1975 -Had mixed emotions about the fall of South Vietnam and the end of the war -Felt the war had been fought with “hands tied” -Restrictions on how the war could be fought and where soldiers could go -Government tried to save face with American people and other countries -After the war and the Army he focused on civilian life -Being a husband and a father to three daughters -Had to learn how to do things with his left hand -Buttoning a shirt with one hand and doing other normal tasks without his right hand -Uses his prosthesis 99% of the time -Feels fortunate to have lost his hand at the wrist -Left the nerve intact allowing him to use the hooks like two fingers -Also has an iLIMB Hand (a bionic hand) (00:19:18) Friendships Pt. 2 & Other Vietnam Veterans -Still in contact with three men that he served with in Vietnam -One of the men lives in Texas and they see each other once a year -Two of the men go to the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Infantry Regiment Annual Reunion -Hasn't attended a reunion yet because he's been busy -Plans on attending one in the future -Hasn't sought out other Vietnam War veterans to talk with, but isn't against talking to other veterans (00:21:02) Reflections on Service -Doesn't feel his time in the Army or in the war affected him that much -Has lived a normal life -Disability hasn't stopped him -Army taught him that he can overcome most things -Taught him discipline and how to take orders -Also taught him that he enjoys being self-employed � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SzejbachC1832V Title A name given to the resource Szejbach, Clarence L (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-16 Description An account of the resource Clarence Szejbach was born in Traverse City, Michigan on September 19, 1948. When he was 19 years old he was drafted into the Army. He was deployed to Vietnam and served in the 2nd Battalion of the 22nd Infantry Regiment of the 25th Infantry Division. He spent his first month as a rifleman, but served as a radio operator for the platoon sergeant, the platoon leader, and the company commander. He served in Tay Ninh Province. His unit served at Fire Support Base Crook on the Cambodian border, and on June 5, 1969 the Viet Cong launched a massive attack on the base. The next day a Viet Cong militant tried to ambush the patrol with grenades. Clarence threw a grenade back saving his unit, but cost him his right hand. For his heroic action he was eventually awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. He returned to the United States and recovered at home and at Valley Forge Hospital, Pennsylvania before being discharged from the Army. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Szejbach, Clarence L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tufer, Grace (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5013053e63cc3351a76c6b4470452975.mp4 e029740b8ec11ef00382ebb76d137942 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d9f105f4838b17bcc605fad331ba039.pdf 4b316bf4fddc05606361ff2a8b8ea7d1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Ronald Zandbergen Cold War 23 minutes 0 seconds (00:00:10) -Born in November 26th, 1942 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. -Raised on a farm. -About 250 acre farm raising animals for food. -Sold wholesale meats. -Joined the Navy in January of 1961. -Graduated high school in June of 1960. -A friend of his decided to join with him to see the world. -Took basic training at Great Lakes, Wisconsin. -Training was rough, and rugged. -Only half passed training. -He was assigned to be a radioman. -In Bainbridge, Maryland he was trained to do communications, Morse code. -After Bainbridge he was sent to Keflavik, Iceland where he remained for one year. -Their role was protecting the military line between Greenland and Iceland. -Protecting US ships from Russian aircraft etc. -Grounded two mig fighters at one point. Released after Cuban blockade ended. -After Iceland he was sent to Little Creek, Virginia to transfer to the Tactical Air Control Squadron 21. -The remaining four years of his military career were spent with the Squadron. -Spent six months in the Mediterranean. -Visited all of the ports. -Traveled on the USS Boxer for six months. -Went to Cuba. -Did training just off of Cuba. -Visited Guantanamo Bay. -Valuable lessons from the Navy. -Being at sea for so long teaches you to get along with people you don’t like. -Mediterranean different from the Ocean in that it is so clear you can see the bottom. -Loved going to France and Spain. -Attended the bull fights. -Being in the military teaches you a lot about yourself. -He loved the Navy and enjoyed the experience overall. -In Iceland it was so dark and icy that walking to the mess hall required holding a rope. (10:00) -He was injured while slipping on ice and sent to a hospital in New York. -Injured his back. -Navy didn’t tell them too much about the Russian position or Cold War in detail. -Iceland was backed by Russia, but the locals were very friendly. �-Locals worked on the base in kitchens, and theater etc. -Appreciated the fact that the Cold War was not active fighting. -What did you think about the Vietnam War? -He was discharged in January of 1965. -Can’t comment too much in detail, but felt bad about the situation. -What was it like being in Virginia? -Married while in Virginia. -Had his son there. -Son now serves in the Air Force as a Lieutenant Colonel. (15:00) -At that time he was considering staying in the military, but decided against it. -Basic training required jumping from an 80 foot high platform into a pool. -Learned how to tie a pair of pants around him in such a way that air from the fall created a floatation device. -Does not recall any women in the Navy at that time. -Very proud to pass his basic training because it was so difficult. -Learned to fire a gun, however they were not issued a firearm. -Their vessel was a flagship, not a battleship. -During the travels along the Mediterranean they were aboard the USS Francis Marion. -Originally the ship was a passenger ship. -They sailed with the commander. -As a radioman he communicated with aircraft in the area, not menial cleaning duties. -Highest rank achieved was radioman 3rd class. -Up for 2nd class before leaving the service. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_ZandbergenR1834V Title A name given to the resource Zandbergen, Ronald Fay (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-30 Description An account of the resource Ronald Zandbergen was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on November 26th, 1942. He joined the Navy in January of 1961. At Great Lakes, Wisconsin he endured basic training and became assigned to communications as a radioman. In Bainbridge, Maryland he was trained in Morse Code and radio specialization. Then he spent a year in Keflavik, Iceland where the US was wary of ships during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Next he was sent to Littlecreek, Virginia to the Tactical Air Control Squadron 21. During his time in the Navy Ronald travelled on the USS Boxer, and visited European ports in the Mediterranean area on the USS Francis Marion. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Zandbergen, Ronald Fay Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burrill, Zach (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/269d4537b91049853d1d97fba49969d9.m4v b8bdf6035ee779b17137ec165bd49eff https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2c2149ce61865ac071c55b2f566d928.pdf b898a03515f4184f8d534f48169d44d3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Robert Witzig World War II 45 minutes 55 seconds (00:00:23) Early Life -Born on August 22, 1924, in Grant County, Wisconsin -Had a vegetable garden during the Great Depression to supplant their meals -Family lived on a dairy farm -Went fishing to add to meals -Nine children in the family -Five boys and four girls -As of the interview he is the only child left -Four of the boys went to war -He and another brother survived, but the other two did not (00:04:06) Start of the War -He was in senior year of high school when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor -People were angry about the attack but had difficulty understanding what happened -The concept of large-scale, mechanized warfare was foreign to a lot of people (00:05:24) Enlisting in the Navy -Graduated from high school in May 1942 -Some of his brothers were already in the military when he graduated -Enlisted in the Navy in early 1943 (00:06:44) Basic Training -Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois, for basic training -Completely new experience and didn't know what to expect -Only familiar part of training was shooting rifles (00:07:44) Boarding the USS Indianapolis (CA-35) -Boarded a train and went to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, then went across the country -Sent to Naval Station Treasure Island in San Francisco, California -Stayed there for a few days -A dozen men, including himself, were selected to go to San Francisco -Boarded the USS Indianapolis (CA-35) in late 1943 -Placed in the Fire Control Division on the ship -Part of the crew that fired the ship's guns (00:09:53) Pacific Theater & Battle of Okinawa -The Indianapolis participated in ten major operations in the Pacific Theater -He participated in nine of them -The ship was hit by a kamikaze plane on March 31, 1945, off the coast of Okinawa -He was lightly injured by the attack -Sailed back to San Francisco for repairs (00�:11:40) Delivery of the Atomic Bomb -Several large wooden boxes and a smaller steel box were loaded onto the ship in San Francisco -Box was brought to the captain's quarters and bolted to the floor -Nobody knew what the boxes contained -These boxes contained the components of the atomic bomb used on Hiroshima -Sailed to Tinian without escort to deliver the atomic bomb components �-Carried a tremendous amount of fuel and ammunition -Planned on rejoining the fleet at Okinawa -Unloaded the bomb components at Tinian then continued with their voyage (00:14:20) Sinking of the USS Indianapolis -A little after midnight on July 30, 1945, two torpedoes struck the ship -This resulted in the fuel and ammunition exploding, destroying a third of the ship -He was sleeping at the time and was on his feet before he knew it -Jumped off the ship when he was 74 feet above the water -Ship sank within 13 minutes -He went underwater, and stayed underwater for eight minutes -Came up and vomited, then started swimming away from the ship (00:17:45) Survival after the Sinking -In the water for so long that the life jacket swelled and the canvas began to tear -Had skin damage, but the salt water helped him heal -Found a group of survivors clinging to a cargo net -Had to be conscious about expending his energy staying afloat -Sharks could smell blood in an eight mile radius -None of the sharks attacked him -Felt sharks brush against his feet and legs -Close enough that he could reach down and touch them (00:25:41) Rescue & Recovery -Saw the plane piloted by Lieutenant Gwinn and Lieutenant Colwell -They reported the discovery of the survivors -The USS Cecil J. Doyle picked him up along with the other survivors on the cargo net -Ship sent out landing crafts to pick them up and bring them to the ship -Given a shower and a place to sleep on the ship -Sailed to the Philippines, past the place where future president George HW Bush was rescued -While at the Philippines he and the other survivors were placed in a Red Cross hospital -Red Cross nurses gave them blankets and coats -Stayed at the hospital for two weeks -Chance to relax and heal (00:30:10) End of the War -Didn't know about their secret cargo until after the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan -Too busy at the time to reflect on their participation in helping to end the war (00:31:22) Homecoming & End of Service -Once he had recovered more in the Philippines he and the other survivors sailed to Guam -Met a nurse from Milwaukee -Stayed at the hospital on Guam for six or seven weeks -Sailed to Pearl Harbor then boarded a ship and sailed to San Diego, California -Survivors were thrown a homecoming parade in San Diego -Shook hands with Hollywood stars -Flown to Great Lakes Naval Station and discharged there in late 1945 -Hitchhiked home (00:36:39) Life after the War Pt. 1 -Lost two of his brothers in the war -Both served in the Army -One in the European Theater and one in the Pacific Theater -Got married twice after the war -Had two daughters and a son �(00:37:37) Court-martial of Captain McVay Pt. 1 -Read about Captain McVay's court-martial in the newspaper -Thought he was a good man that treated his crew well -Remembers shaking hands with him at one point (00:39:19) USS Indianapolis Reunions -Went to some of the crew reunions -Stopped going in later years because it was too far and cost too much money (00:40:07) Life after the War Pt. 2 -Family did steelwork and welding -Got into that work and made a career out of it (00:41:40) Remembering the USS Indianapolis -Already has his headstone designed -Has an image of the USS Indianapolis -Along with a note that it delivered the atom bomb components to Tinian to end the war (00:43:15) Contact with Home -When he wrote home it had to be censored -Accepted it -He didn't know much information anyway, so there was very little to tell -Usually didn't have time to focus on details to write home about anyway (00:44:00) Court-martial of Captain McVay Pt. 2 & Exoneration -Happy that the government exonerated Captain McVay -Felt that the government wanted a scapegoat for losing the ship, and they picked McVay -Note: The Navy had failed to send out a search party after receiving a distress signal The Japanese submarine captain said nothing could have been done to avoid the sinking -Survivors were angered that their captain was put on trial rather than the Navy accept responsibility -Note: In October 2000 Congress passed a resolution in favor of exoneration In July 2001, the Secretary of the Navy ordered McVay's record purged of the trial � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_WitzigR1941V Title A name given to the resource Witzig, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-07-09 Description An account of the resource Robert Witzig was born on August 22, 1924, in Grant County, Wisconsin. He enlisted in the Navy in early 1943 and received his basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois. He went to Naval Station Treasure Island, California, and was selected to go aboard the USS Indianapolis (CA-35) and served in the ship's fire control division (firing the ship's gun). He participated in the ship's major operations in the Pacific Theater in 1944 and 1945, including the invasion of Okinawa. After the ship's repairs in California, he participated in the delivery of the atomic bomb components to the island of Tinian. On July 30, 1945, the USS Indianapolis was torpedoed and sank. Robert abandoned ship and was one of the 317 men to survive the sinking. After five days he was rescued, and recovered in the Philippines and at Guam. He returned to the United States and was discharged at Great Lakes Naval Station in late 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Witzig, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammond, Steve (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/45181fef64ff8c91488cd5a9f4d5a91d.m4v 793b6597ed2a88709ead254bc337fc48 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/169b2437d63a17816a4b2ac4dda4d17b.pdf 78e4dbd4a3fd8b78b2846b36087b5868 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Doug Voss Cold War 1968 – 1971 (South Korea and West Germany) 1 hour 25 minutes 9 seconds (00:00:40) Early Life -Born on March 1, 1950, in Buffalo, New York -Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1963 -Father worked at a lumber mill -Mother was a homemaker, but later got a job -Parents got divorced which prompted the move to Grand Rapids -Doug, his two sisters, and his mother moved to Michigan -Went to two high schools -Started at Union High School then moved to South High School -Graduated from South High School in 1968 (last graduating class) -School used to be located at the corner of Jefferson and Hall (00:02:07) Awareness of the Vietnam War & Social Change -Aware of major events surrounding the Vietnam War -Remembers the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964 and knowing it would lead to war -Watched the news every night -Saw increasing casualty numbers in Vietnam -Believed that the Vietnam War was a just war -Remembers 1968 being a tumultuous year -A historical dividing point -The year Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert Kennedy were both assassinated -South High School was an integrated school and he had black friends -After MLKJ’s assassination he saw the division between races -There was no violence, but the gap made itself more apparent (00:04:25) High School Reserve Officers’ Training Corps & Enlisting in the Army -He was in the High School Reserve Officers’ Training Corps (ROTC) in high school -Sophomore year through senior year -Decided that he wanted to enlist in the Army when he was a junior in high school -Believed the Vietnam War to be a noble cause and the spread of communism was a real threat -In ROTC they had squads, platoons, and companies -When he graduated, he held the rank of captain in the ROTC -Started as a private at Union High School and made his way up through the ranks -Enjoyed everything about ROTC -The classes, the rifle team, learning about military law, drills, ceremonies, and tactics -Enlisted in the Army in June 1968 after graduating from high school -Mother disapproved because she feared he would be sent to Vietnam -Had a physical exam and took aptitude tests in Detroit �-Mix of draftees and enlistees -Saw some of the draftees trying to get out of military service -Some of them faked being gay to get out of the draft -Returned home for two weeks after that (00:08:35) Basic Training -Reported to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, on July 1, 1968, for basic training -Greeted by drill sergeants screaming orders at him and the other recruits -Told to get off the bus and line up -Kept up all night to get processing done -Testing, lectures on Army laws, and doing paperwork -Next day got heads shaved and issued a uniform -All processing took two or three days -Quartered in older barracks built during World War II -Had someone on fire watch every night because the buildings were so flammable -Physical training was the first part of basic training -Issued a rifle in the first or second week of training -Taught how to make bunker and organize footlocker -Everything had to be uniform -Learned how to march and drill -Easy for him to adjust to because of his time in the ROTC -ROTC instructor had told him what to expect -It was disorienting at first, then he adjusted -His drill sergeant was fair -Didn’t pick favorites and he meted out punishments equally -Men in the training platoon kept a check on the other recruits -If one recruit performed poorly, and brought the unit down, he’d get a “blanket party” -One recruit throws a blanket over the recruit then everyone punches him -Some of the men had trouble adjusting -There was a National Guardsman that was older and unfit -One man was a nervous wreck, but he adjusted -Understood basic training better after he completed it -Taught conformity, camaraderie, and unit cohesion -Qualified on the M14 rifle, but also trained with the M16 rifle -Lasted eight weeks (00:17:45) Advanced Individual Training -Sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, for his advanced individual training (AIT) -He wanted to be a mechanic, so he received mechanic training -Lasted eight weeks -Started with learning how an engine runs -Learned about the different components of vehicles -Suspension, drivetrain, diesel vs. gasoline, and electrical components -Learned how to drive an array of wheeled Army vehicles and how to change their tires -Had a practical test at the end of AIT �-Went to the field to repair a disabled 2-ton truck -Had to diagnose the problem then fix it -He had been told he had an aptitude to be a mechanic during his processing in Detroit -Due to being an enlistee, he had a better chance of getting his selected job than a draftee -Had air conditioned barracks at Fort Jackson -Treated better during AIT -Had an inspector general inspection during his time at AIT -Platoon sergeant made him and the other recruits clean the barracks every day -They passed the inspection (00:22:00) Deployment to South Korea -In November 1968 he received his deployment orders -Originally slated for Vietnam -Orders changed to South Korea near the Demilitarized Zone -Mother was relieved he wasn’t going to Vietnam, but Korea worried her too -USS Pueblo incident, Blue House Raid, and ambushed patrols -Advised him to be careful -Flew on a chartered commercial airliner to South Korea -12-hour flight -Stopped in Japan -Chance to get out and stretch his legs (00:24:18) Arrival in South Korea -Landed at Kimpo Airfield north of Seoul -Warm day in November -He smelled the human and animal fertilizer on the rice paddies -Assigned to the 2nd Infantry Division at Camp White Cloud -Note: May mean Camp Red Cloud -Sent to replacement barracks for three or four days of orientation -Learning about Korea and a little about the Demilitarized Zone (00:26:11) Assignment to 23rd Infantry Regiment -Assigned to Headquarters Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 23rd Infantry Regiment -North of Freedom Bridge, by the Imjin River and the Demilitarized Zone (00:26:46) Stationed near the Demilitarized Zone -The 23rd Infantry Regiment generally did three tasks -Patrolled the DMZ, repaired the barrier fence, and patrolled around the Imjin River -Constantly looking for North Korean infiltrators -Had orders to shoot to kill -He did some night patrols outside of the DMZ and watched for movement -Received on-the-job training to learn about tracked vehicles -Learned about the engine, drivetrain, and transmission -Armored personnel carriers brought soldiers to the DMZ, but never entered -Against treaty for vehicles to enter the DMZ, only foot soldiers -Told to always be prepared for action -On patrols they had eight men and set up a static position (similar to an ambush) �(00:31:40) Incidents in the Demilitarized Zone -There were a few incidents in Korea during his tour -Saw some shooting between North and South -Saw someone set off foo gas barrels and it lit up the night sky -Fougas: Homemade napalm used as a defensive weapon st -1 Battalion took some casualties, but doesn’t recall 2nd Battalion taking any casualties -There were a lot of short-lived firefights in 1969 -Killed some North Korean soldiers in the process -Some North Korean soldiers managed to infiltrate South Korea -Result of a pact between Ho Chi Minh and Kim Il Sung -Keep the Americans and South Koreans distracted from Vietnam -Throw those countries off balance and put into a vulnerable position (00:36:16) Contact with South Korean Soldiers -Had some Republic of Korea soldiers attached to his unit known as KATUSAs -KATUSA: Korean Augmentation To the United States Army -The South Koreans were good soldiers and the ones in his unit spoke English -Had one or two KATUSAs per unit -Good for interpreting and teaching the culture -Never saw them do any maneuvers, but heard the South Koreans were tough -For example, officers could hit their subordinates (00:37:45) Tour in South Korea -Stayed in South Korea for 13 months -Put the finishing touches on the barrier fence -Lined foxholes with concrete pipes to prevent washout during monsoon season -He helped with that and remembers being told to stay on guard -Checked vehicles on the line to make sure they were functioning -He was selected to put on a mock patrol for visiting dignitaries -Went to an observation post capable of seeing North Korea -Walked a patrol in the DMZ -Temporarily assigned to C Company because they were short on mechanics -He drove an M113 armored personnel carrier for C Company -Spent four months on the DMZ, four months off it, then four months on again -When off the DMZ they trained, and relaxed -On the DMZ you had to be hyper vigilant which was stressful and emotionally taxing -Went to a camp south of the Imjin River during the four months off the DMZ -More relaxed atmosphere -Allowed to leave the base (00:42:45) Downtime in South Korea & Contact with South Koreans -While off the DMZ you could go off base -South Korea had a strict curfew set at midnight -Most Koreans spoke some English -Allowed to visit Seoul, but he never did -Closest larger town was Munsan-ni �-He grew to respect the Koreans -Those that lived near the DMZ had hard lives, but made a life for themselves -A lot of farmers -He appreciated their tenacity -Certain clubs were off-limits to American servicemen -Women that worked at clubs had to be checked by doctors on a regular basis -There was a thriving black market in South Korea (00:45:33) Drugs in South Korea -He didn’t notice hardly any drug use in South Korea during 1969 -Only drug he ever heard mentioned was weed by only a couple soldiers -Heard about the drug problem getting worse after he left South Korea -Heroin started showing up in the early 1970s (00:46:20) Morale in South Korea -Morale was good during his tour -Had a change in battalion commanders during his tour -New battalion commander was strict, but he was a good leader -Forbade any unauthorized, non-military items in the barracks -Threw a party for Michiganders, because so many Michiganders were in the battalion -He was also from Michigan (00:48:03) Release of USS Pueblo Crew -USS Pueblo crew was released from North Korean custody on December 23, 1968 -He was on guard duty and got to see the buses transporting the crewmembers -Remembers waving at them and wishing he’d had his camera -Note: Allowed to have cameras when outside the DMZ (00:49:14) Contact with Home -Wrote letters home to keep in touch with family -Usually wrote his mother, aunts, uncles, and the parish priest -Took a while for letters to start reaching his mother (00:49:38) North Korean Infiltration -Took a while for letters to get home, because 30 or 40 North Koreans infiltrated South Korea -Placed on alert to hunt for the North Korean infiltrators -Unable to write home for a few weeks -Between American and South Korean forces, all infiltrators were killed or captured (00:51:30) First Night in South Korea -Remembers his first night in South Korea -It was dark and he was assigned to a bunk -Heard mortars and thought it was an attack -Learned they were illumination rounds requested by troops in the DMZ (00:52:18) Incidents in South Korea -Never took incoming fire during his time in South Korea -Incidents had happened before his tour -Two barracks were destroyed by North Korean saboteurs -A vehicle ran over a landmine placed by the North Koreans �-Dug up in the DMZ and moved into South Korea -Used smudge pots lined along the barrier fence to provide illumination -Gave just enough light to see the barrier fence and any movement -Remembers seeing a foo gas barrel being set off and the subsequent explosion -Saw tracers fired across the DMZ (00:54:44) Awareness of the Vietnam War in South Korea -Had men in his unit that had served in Vietnam -They were good men -Patrols usually had a squad leader that had had served in Vietnam -Didn’t pay much attention to the Vietnam War -Too much going on in South Korea to pay attention to Vietnam (00:55:40) Racial Tension in Vietnam -There wasn’t racial tension during his tour in South Korea -Everyone got along well with each other -Tensions became manifest in the 1970s, after he left (00:56:33) Draftees & Enlistees -Half of the men were enlistees, and the other half were draftees -Draftees saw the enlistees as “lifers” even if the enlistees weren’t career soldiers -Enlistees called “lifers” because they did one more year than draftees -Draftees protested more than enlistees -Felt the enlistees should do more work because they chose to serve -He had some career soldiers in his unit -His drill sergeant from basic training served in Vietnam -Joined Doug’s platoon in South Korea (00:58:40) Defending South Korea -General Bonesteel III created a layered defense system for South Korea -Multiple lines of defense -Demilitarized Zone -Patrols in the Demilitarized Zone -Minefields -Guard posts -The sand pit -Barrier fence -Foxholes -Positions behind the foxholes -Patrols along the Imjin River and boats patrolling the river (01:00:25) North Korean Propaganda -Remembers the North Korean propaganda speakers on the other side of the DMZ -Played speeches by North Korean soldiers speaking English -Decried capitalism as oppressive and stealing from the needy -Glorified North Korea and Kim Il Sung -Loud at night -Played Captain Bucher’s “confession” (former captain of the USS Pueblo) �-Said it was a spy ship, and the US government was in the wrong -Made his confession under duress -Recanted his confession after being released from North Korea (01:02:50) Bob Hope Show -Bob Hope came to Munsan-ni for a USO Show on December 22, 1968 -Brought a few famous people with him -Football player Rosey Greer -Ann-Margret -Dean Martin’s Golddigger dancers -Excellent show -Stopped in South Korea en route to Vietnam (01:03:53) Reassignment to West Germany & Assignment to 3rd Infantry Division -Left South Korea in December 1969 -Sent to West Germany after a two-week leave home -Assigned to 3rd Battalion of the 7th Cavalry Regiment of the 3rd Infantry Division -Stationed in Schweinfurt -Worked along the Czechoslovakian and East German border -Similar to duty in South Korea except without the hostility -Looked for any changes in communist territory -He worked as a mechanic and as an infantryman -His unit needed scout personnel, which is why he became an infantryman -Transferred to the motor pool because they needed mechanics -More peaceful than South Korea -Got to see the old German architecture and the old cities -Visited Munich and Berchtesgaden -Visited the old castles -Found German beer to be superior to American beer -It felt like a regular job -Had formation at dawn, breakfast, then worked for the rest of the day -Worked day shifts during his time in Germany -Started with guard duty around the motor pool until another new soldier joined the unit -Promoted to Specialist 5th Class and he was made the commander of a tracked recovery vehicle -No more guard duty or charge-of-quarters duty at night -Had to be available at all times if a vehicle needed to be recovered (01:08:55) Contact with Germans -Most of the Germans liked the American soldiers -Some found the Americans to be arrogant, or obnoxious -One German told him America might be great, but not all Americans are great (01:09:43) Soviet Invasion -There was concern about the possibility of a Soviet invasion of West Germany -Whenever he went on maneuvers he thought about that -Had a captain that had studied Russian tactics -Did company-sized maneuvers to prepare for an invasion �(01:11:05) Drug Problem in West Germany -There was a larger drug problem in West Germany than in South Korea -Hashish was the drug of choice -When he arrived in 1970 there was no problem, but it gradually got worse -Soldiers became drug dealers and tried to ship their products back to the United States -Negatively affected the morale of the unit -Battalion commander finally addressed the issue and called the men into formation -Told them they had 48 hours to shape up, or request discharge from the Army -A few men took the offer to leave with a less-than-honorable discharge -Resulted in a smaller unit, but a stronger one (01:13:19) Racial Tension in West Germany -Racial tension was more visible in West Germany than in South Korea -The Germans didn’t understand the black soldiers -Started seeing more of an attitude of white versus black in Germany -Some black soldiers held a sit-in around the flagpole -Sat all day and into the night -Higher-ranking officer heard their demands and made some changes -Made Soul food available in the PX (easiest change) -More respect from commanders and dealt with favoritism -Tensions eased after that protest -Remembers a fight between black and white soldiers in the Enlisted Men’s Club (01:15:30) End of Service -Encouraged to reenlist at the end of his service -The problems he saw in Germany turned him off from reenlisting -Didn’t want to be in the Army if those problems existed and persisted -Feels the all-volunteer Army fixed those issues -Finished his time in Germany, and was discharged at Fort Dix, New Jersey, in 1971 (01:16:48) Agent Orange Compensation -Agent Orange was used along the DMZ in South Korea -Saw trucks and South Koreans spraying the chemical along the road -During the 2000s, the government recognized the use of Agent Orange in South Korea -At the time, he was told that it wasn’t harmful to human beings -Potent enough to kill all vegetation in a matter of hours -Veterans that served in South Korea can now get compensated if they were exposed -Must show symptoms of exposure (various cancers, digestive or respiratory problems) -Served in South Korea from 1967 – 1970 -Part of a unit stationed along the Demilitarized Zone -File a complaint via your doctor (01:19:55) Life after Service -He enjoyed mechanic work and wanted to make a career out of that -Attended Montcalm Community College on the GI Bill to learn how to be an auto-mechanic -Like it at first, then stopped enjoying it -Helped his stepfather paint houses for a while �-The General Motors factory on 36th Street, Grand Rapids, began hiring -Got a job with them and worked for them for 30 years until the factory closed (01:20:56) Joining Veterans of Foreign Wars -Joined Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) Post 702 -Enjoys being part of that post -Veterans from World War II to the War in Afghanistan; all served in combat zones -Had combat pay, which qualified him to join the VFW -Got the Armed Forces Expeditionary Forces Medal (01:22:45) National Guard Service -Joined the Michigan National Guard in 1978 and stayed in for a couple years -Part of the 126th Infantry Regiment -In a fire support team -Directing fire support for the company commander -Enjoyed that job -Read a grid map and called in artillery fire -Only met once a month and went to Camp Grayling, Michigan, once a year -Not the same camaraderie as in the regular Army -Felt like he was trying to reclaim something that couldn’t be reclaimed (01:24:20) Reflections on Service -Built confidence -Did things he never thought he would do -Saw places he never thought he’d see -Learned a skill and did multiple jobs -Good experience except for the end of his tour in Germany � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_VossD1947V Title A name given to the resource Voss, Douglas (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-09-08 Description An account of the resource Doug Voss was born on March 1, 1950, in Buffalo, New York, but he moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1963. He was in the High Reserve Officers' Training Corps, and he enlisted in the Army in June 1968. He went to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, for basic training then went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, for mechanic training. In November 1968, he was deployed to South Korea where he served with Headquarters Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 23rd Infantry Regiment of the 2nd Infantry Division. They operated on and inside the Demilitarized Zone, carrying out patrols and guarding the DMZ from North Korean intruders. During his time in South Korea he witnessed the release of the USS Pueblo's crew from North Korean custody. He left South Korea in December 1969 and went to West Germany for a tour in Schweinfurt with the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Cavalry Regiment of the 3rd Infantry Division. After his tour in West Germany he was discharged at Fort Dix, New Jersey, in 1971. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Voss, Douglas Wayne Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3570868c6a62a76c2b2b0fa29a272cf4.mp4 87ed778660b670a683c745162530e43c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dc256db2092fa970fed8c5ba74120ca0.pdf c377d1c6ea532b5e110db817eb7a2547 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project William Van Luyn Part 2 World War II Interview Length: (01:32:34:00) Recollections of Europe (00:00:52:00)  During the war, Van Luyn served as a member of the 1303rd General Service Engineering Regiment (00:00:52:00)  Prior joining the military, Van Luyn went to his family dentist in Grand Rapids and the dentist assured him that apart from a single small filling, Van Luyn’s teeth were fine and did not have any problem (00:01:49:00) o Soon after Van Luyn arrived at Camp Ellis, Illinois for basic training, he and all the other new recruits had to go through a dental check; when the dentist checked Van Luyn, he said that he had a lot of work to do (00:02:10:00) o When Van Luyn said he had been to the family dentist three months earlier and did not have anything wrong, the dentist said he had to do extensive work on Van Luyn (00:02:23:00) o Because the dentist was a captain and Van Luyn a PFC (Private, First Class), Van Luyn had to report when the dentist scheduled him for the work to be done, which involved drilling four or five of Van Luyn’s teeth (00:02:39:00)  The fillings for the teeth were so big that once Van Luyn’s unit deployed to Europe, one of the fillings fell out (00:02:59:00) o After the filling fell out, the tooth started to rot and ache and because there was not ready access to a dentist, Van Luyn had to deal with that pain for several months (00:03:24:00)  He tried packing aspirin and tobacco around the tooth but neither did anything to dull the pain (00:03:35:00) o After spending four or five months dealing with the pain, Van Luyn went to his lieutenant and asked if there was any way Van Luyn could be sent back to have the tooth taken care of (00:04:15:00) o The lieutenant said he would try to make the arrangements and two or three days later, he told Van Luyn there would be a weapons carrier and Van Luyn was to get on it (00:04:26:00) o The weapons carrier took Van Luyn back to a wooded area where a dentist had set up, using a wooden crate and a pedal-powered drill; both the crate and dentist wobbled around, which scared Van Luyn (00:04:43:00)  When the dentist finished working on the soldier in front of Van Luyn and said it was Van Luyn’s turn, Van Luyn refused; the dentist admitted that he knew the set-up was bad but that it was all he had (00:05:27:00)  Nevertheless, when Van Luyn said he would pass, the dentist said that he did not blame him (00:05:34:00) o When Van Luyn returned to his platoon, the lieutenant asked if Van Luyn had gotten the tooth taken care of; Van Luyn said he did and never said any more about it (00:05:38:00) � o Ultimately, Van Luyn did not have the tooth taken care of until he returned home for overseas (00:05:54:00)  While Van Luyn and the other men were waiting at Camp McCoy, Wisconsin to be discharged, they all had to receive shots and have their teeth checked (00:06:08:00)  All the men were ordered to stand in two lines with a dentist at the beginning of each line (00:06:16:00)  As he got closer to the front, Van Luyn could see that the dentist for the other line was simply looking in the mouth and taking notes while the dentist in his line was going right into the men’s mouths with his dental pick (00:06:31:00) o Van Luyn knew if the dentist stuck the dental pick into his rotten tooth, Van Luyn was either going die or kill the dentist (00:06:51:00)  Van Luyn switched lines and the dentist told him to stay a day or two to fix the rotten tooth; however, Van Luyn declined because he wanted to get home (00:06:56:00) Van Luyn is Catholic and while in training, there was a Protestant chaplain at Camp Ellis, so Van Luyn would occasionally attend the chaplain’s services because it was the best he could do (00:08:08:00) o The men were never told if there was the option of going off-base on Sundays to attend church services (00:08:21:00) o Once Van Luyn made it over to France, there were a larger number of Catholic churches, with seemingly every village having at least a Catholic church, along with other churches (00:08:41:00)  Often, the men did not even know what day it was and most of the time, even if they did know it was a Sunday, they were too busy to be able to attend a church service (00:08:51:00)  Occasionally, the situation did happen where the men had an hour to an hour-and-a-half free, a church was close, and they were able to get away to attend a service (00:09:01:00)  The first time Van Luyn managed to go to a service, he went with a couple of his friends and when they walked into the church, all the French were staring at them; although the French had seen soldiers before, Van Luyn figures they had not seen any in their church (00:09:16:00)  Whenever they went to a service, the men had to take their rifles with them and when the time came for Communion, one of the men had to stay in the pew with the rifles (00:09:51:00)  After the first service Van Luyn and his friends went to, they were walking back to their unit when a Frenchmen ran up and indicated that the men were to come back because the priest wanted to talk to them (00:10:25:00)  The men talked with the priest while most of the other French stood nearby and listened (00:11:01:00) �  o Usually, Van Luyn was able to make it out to a church service once every two months or so; while going to service, Van Luyn saw some strange things and some funny things (00:11:24:00)  During one service, the priest came out of the sacristy to start the service and accompanying the priest was another man who was dressed similar to the priest and was carrying a large staff (00:11:37:00)  Both men walked down the aisle and while the priest stayed in the front, the other men went to the back of the church (00:12:11:00)  As the service continued, Van Luyn noticed some kids a couple of pews in front of him messing around and poking each other; eventually, the other man standing in the back walked to their pew and poked them with his staff, which immediately changed how the kids were acting (00:12:24:00)  A couple of minutes later, the man standing in the back walked down the aisle again and used the staff to poke a man who had fallen asleep (00:12:54:00) Prior to being in Germany, none of the men had ever seen a four-lane highway like the German Autobahn (00:13:44:00) o Even though the men did not have to, they made repairs to any damage to the highways because the highways served as main supply routes (00:14:08:00) o Although Van Luyn figures the officers in the regiment gained an appreciation for how the highways were put together from an engineering standpoint during the repairs, he personally did not; he and the other men were just trying to get the job done (00:14:46:00) Whenever Van Luyn’s unit came to an area where a bridge either needed to be built or repaired, quite often they would first build a Bailey Bridge, which was a bridge designed to go together in sections (00:15:12:00) o Usually, the Bailey Bridge was needed to make the next crossing, so many times, the men would build a regular, fixed bridge underneath the Bailey Bridge; as soon as the bottom bridge was done, the men could take the Bailey Bridge apart and move the sections to the next crossing (00:15:42:00) o During one crossing, the men had the bottom bridge pretty far along, with one layer of decking already on and the second layer in progress; however, the bridge was closer to the Bailey Bridge than normal, so Van Luyn and a couple of other soldiers were laying on the top of the fixed bridge, trying to hammer the decking into place with only a foot or so of clearance to swing the hammer (00:16:17:00)  Eventually, Van Luyn did not realize but the other men had gotten out from under the bridge (00:16:55:00)  All of a sudden, tanks had come up and the next thing Van Luyn knew, the tanks were driving across the Bailey Bridge (00:17:08:00)  As the tanks went across the Bailey Bridge, the bridge naturally sagged, so Van Luyn had to spread his body out and turn his head to the side out of fear of being crushed (00:17:22:00)  Van Luyn laid under the bridge for quite a while after the last tank crossed before finally crawling and onto the ground, after which he promptly let � out a stream of profanities at his friends, none of whom realized that Van Luyn had been under the bridge (00:18:09:00)  Van Luyn could not hear for two or three weeks afterwards and both his chest and back were bruised (00:18:39:00) One of the many hazards the men faced while building the bridges was having to walk out onto the I-beams, especially if the beams were dry but there had been a frost or snowfall (00:19:03:00) o Once the I-beams were in place, the men would carry out large planks with spikes driven into the sides, place the planks parallel to the I-beam, and then bend the spikes under the lip I-beam to secure the plank (00:19:23:00)  The wooden planks were very heavy and it took two men, one on each end, to carry of a single plank; the two men’s footsteps had to be in unison as they walked on the I-beam (00:19:55:00) o When the snow and ice came, walking on the I-beams became very treacherous for the men (00:20:42:00)  On several occasions, men slipped and fell off the I-beams; whenever someone went into the water, very rarely did he come up because often, the river below was moving extremely quickly (00:20:50:00)  Once, Van Luyn was out on an I-beam when a couple of men fell into the river; when the men fell, Van Luyn froze and could not make his body turn around and walk back to the shoreline (00:21:19:00)  Eventually, the company commander sent a couple of men out to “get” Van Luyn and just the men taking a hold of Van Luyn helped him a little bit (00:21:58:00)  Van Luyn managed to sit down and turn around; once he did, he grabbed a hold of the I-beam and worked his way off, four inches at a time (00:22:09:00)  When Van Luyn had made it back to shore, the company commander told him not to worry about it and that it would not happen the next time; however, Van Luyn said there was not going to be a next time (00:22:30:00) o When the commander asked what Van Luyn meant, Van Luyn said he was never going back out onto an I-beam; when the commander threatened to court-martial Van Luyn, Van Luyn said that he did not care (00:22:49:00)  Although Van Luyn figures the commander resented the way Van Luyn had talked to him, he figures the commander more resented the fact that the exchange occurred with so many other soldiers watching (00:23:27:00)  After the incident, Van Luyn never again had the job of carrying the planks out onto the I-beams (00:24:01:00) o Originally, the men were working on the bridges in only Army shoes, not even combat boots; therefore, they were all happy when they heard that they would be receiving boots (00:24:15:00)  However, the boots were an old-fashioned kind where the parts attached using a buckle and sometimes, the parts would get caught; if a part was �  caught, the man would yell for the other to stop because he knew if he took another step, he was going to trip and they were both going to fall into the river (00:24:36:00) Van Luyn and the other soldiers saw quite a bit in the way of Nazi influence and propaganda in Germany (00:25:26:00) o Although a lot of Germans were totally against what the Nazis were going, they still have to live under the regime and they did not dare to not follow the regime’s orders, out of fear of the lives (00:25:40:00) o The soldiers often stayed in schools because they were easier to defend and in every classroom and hallway, there were pictures of Hitler and various Nazi insignia hanging all over the place (00:26:25:00)  Although Van Luyn tried to keep some items as souvenirs, he inevitably had to throw them away because his unit was constantly on the move and he did not have the space to the keep the items (00:27:11:00)  At one point, Van Luyn had a German submachine gun, complete with ammunition, but he only carried for six or seven hours before throwing it off to the side of the road (00:27:26:00)  Van Luyn was able to keep a couple of the Nazi armbands imprinted with a swastika and a couple of other small items that he was able to stick into his pockets (00:27:46:00) o Although all of the German civilians that the men interacted with claimed that they were not Nazis, the men could not tell who was telling the truth and who was not, so they treated all the civilians as if they were Nazis (00:28:05:00) At one point, Van Luyn’s unit was moving through a small German town and as Van Luyn and another soldier searched for snipers, Van Luyn noticed a barber shop; the men had not had a haircut in some time and most had grown large beards, so Van Luyn suggested to the other soldier that they go into the barber shop for a haircut and shave (00:28:38:00) o The other soldier was skeptical that the barber would slit their throats but Van Luyn said that if one of them kept watch while the other got his haircut, he did not think the barber would try anything (00:29:11:00)  The soldier was still skeptical and Van Luyn said he would get in the chair first as long as the other soldier kept watch (00:29:30:00) o Van Luyn and the soldier walked into the shop, where an man and woman were cowering against the back wall (00:29:42:00) o Once Van Luyn motioned that he wanted a haircut, he sat in the chair while the other soldier kept his rifle trained on the barber; however, the barber was shaking so bad that Van Luyn told the other soldier to lower the rifle (00:30:01:00) o When the barber finished, he indicated for Van Luyn to get into his wife’s chair because she did the shaving and for the other soldier to get into the chair for a haircut (00:30:34:00)  The other soldier started to set down his rifle when Van Luyn yelled at him to stop and watch to make sure the wife did not do anything (00:30:52:00) � o As Van Luyn sat in the chair, the wife was sharpening a straight razor on a strap of leather; although the wife was just as nervous, she did not nick Van Luyn once during the shave (00:31:07:00) o Once Van Luyn was finished, the other soldier got into the chair and Van Luyn stood watch (00:31:38:00) o It was extremely hard for the soldiers to keep themselves clean as they were advancing across Europe (00:31:52:00)  Although the men in the unit were around water most of the time, they often never had enough spare time to bathe (00:31:55:00)  A couple of times, the men did bathe by filling their helmets, minus the helmet liner, with water and going back to camp; however, half the time, the men did not even have soap (00:32:02:00)  If a man wanted to shave, he needed to find someone with a razor and most of the time, after twenty-odd other men had used it, the blade was dull (00:32:46:00)  Nothing was said to the soldiers about their commanding general’s (General George Patton) penchant for wanting his soldiers to be cleanshaven and presentable (00:34:07:00)  At one point, the men were able to take showers in what looked like the back of a semi-truck trailer; while the men showered, they were all issued clean uniforms (00:34:18:00) Van Luyn can recall walking past “dragon teeth”, German concrete, anti-tank obstacles that poked out of the ground and made passing with vehicles impossible (00:35:19:00) o As far as Van Luyn can remember, his company never had to remove any large number of the obstacles; he does remember having to use explosives just to clear a path through for the trucks (00:36:50:00) o Apart from the “dragon teeth”, the Germans also used a large variety of mines to slow the Allied advance (00:37:44:00)  One day, the men were riding in a truck to a river where they knew the Germans had destroyed a bridge (00:37:50:00)  As they got closer to the river, the driver slowed down the truck down to 5 or 6mph because he expected to come under enemy gunfire (00:38:10:00)  All of a sudden, the driver slammed on the brakes and all the men fell forward; all the men quickly got out of the truck, thinking the driver had spotted the enemy (00:38:26:00)  When the men asked what was going on, the driver pointed at the ground and said that something on the road did not look right to him; there was a strip of fresh asphalt on the road and the driver was skeptical as to why the Germans would repair the road while they were retreating (00:38:47:00)  The men pulled out their bayonets and began poking around the side of the road; eventually, they found out that the Germans had dug up the road, placed down large Teller anti-tank mines, and recovered the road (00:39:14:00) �    The men dug up the mines, took them to the bridge, and used the explosives to help clear out where the Germans had destroyed part of the bridge (00:39:43:00) One day, Van Luyn and some other soldiers were checking out some buildings and when they noticed a nice house further down the road, they decided to check it out to see if there were any Germans in it (00:41:08:00) o Once they were at the house, a couple of men went around to the back and the four then proceeded to check throughout the entire house but did not find anyone hiding in a closet or under a bed (00:41:32:00) o There was also a garage on the property and when one of the men went to check it, he called out for the others to come take a look (00:41:56:00)  Inside the garage was a beautiful dark green four-door Renault; although the keys were in the car, the men were sure that it would not run (00:42:08:00)  One of the men ran back to the jeep, took one of the gas cans and put in a couple of gallons of gas before telling Van Luyn to try it; Van Luyn turned the key and the after a while, the car started (00:42:28:00) o Van Luyn told the other men to jump in, he backed the car out, and began driving down the road (00:43:02:00)  However, the men did not make it too far before they ran into a German outpost; Van Luyn could not brake, so he told the others to take their helmets off and hide their rifles while he drove past (00:43:27:00)  As the car drove past, the men waved at the German guards, who just stood there and looked at them (00:43:59:00)  Van Luyn drove a little ways further down the road before stopping and saying they needed to head back; if that was only an outpost, they might run into a large group of Germans (00:44:12:00)  Van Luyn turned the car around and headed back down the road; the men passed the guards, waved, the guards waved back, went back to the house, put the car in the garage, got back in their jeep and left (00:44:34:00) o When the men got back to their unit, their commander asked if they had seen anything and Van Luyn told him about the outpost (00:45:40:00) Van Luyn knew how the Germans had treated the Russian (Prisoners of War); he had seen pictures of German forces occupying towns in Russia and pictures of how horrible the Germans treated the Russians (00:46:07:00) o The Germans knew what the other German soldiers had done to the Russians, so when the war was winding down and the Germans soldiers knew they had lost, they wanted to surrender to the Americans rather than the Russians (00:47:07:00)  However, in a lot of the cases, the Americans said “no” and sent the POWs back to the Russian front (00:48:06:00) When the war ended in Europe, Gen. Patton sent word to Van Luyn’s regimental commander saying that because the regiment had been involved in so much beyond what their original assignment was, the regiment was receiving five battle stars and would be one of the first units of its type to go home (00:48:45:00) o The men were elated when the commander told them the news (00:49:18:00) �o However, a week or so later, the colonel called the men back and told them that they would still be the first unit of their type to go home, they were just taking the long way; General Douglas MacArthur needed experienced soldiers to take part in the invasion of Japan (00:50:05:00) The Pacific Theater (00:50:47:00)  Once Van Luyn’s regiment arrived in the Pacific, they sailed to Manila Bay (00:50:47:00)  In order to get to the Pacific, the regiment traveled across Europe to Marseille, France, where the men stayed for a couple of days before boarding a ship, the U.S.S. General Pope (00:51:21:00) o The General Pope sailed out of Marseilles on June 23rd, 1945 and unfortunately, Van Luyn instantly became seasick (00:51:34:00)  The voyage from Marseilles to the Pacific took thirty-three days and included the ship sailing past the Rock of Gibraltar and through the Panama Canal (00:51:42:00) o The entire voyage was miserable and all the men’s attitudes were sour, especially for the men who were married and had families waiting for them back in the States (00:52:07:00) o There were a lot of fights between the men, often with one man doing something and another smacking him (00:52:22:00) o The men were only allowed on the deck of the ship from six a.m. until six p.m.; at six p.m., all the men had to go below decks, where it was extremely hot and uncomfortable (00:52:38:00)  The bunks were stacked either five or six high and made out of pipe with thick canvas stretched between them (00:52:56:00)  While below decks, each of the men would sweat so bad that their sweat would seep through the canvas and drip onto the man below him (00:53:40:00)  Occasionally, the men were able to take a shower using some salt water (00:54:14:00) o Other than an hour to hour-and-a-half at the Panama Canal, the men were on the ship for the entire voyage (00:55:02:00) o One evening, the whistle sounded for the men to begin going below and there a group of men playing cards close to the door; there were only a couple of cards left to play but one of the Marine guards on the ship came up and told the men to break it up (00:55:16:00)  Although the men said they only had a couple of cards left to play, the Marine gave a kick and scattered the cards and the men’s money across the deck (00:56:07:00)  After the guard kicked the cards, Van Luyn had never seen men move so fast; the men were up in a flash and had the Marine dangling over the side, one man holding onto each ankle (00:56:16:00)  As Van Luyn turned to leave, not wanting to see the men drop the guard, the men pulled the guard back up (00:56:56:00)  After the incident, all the other Marines became much more friendly with the soldiers (00:57:16:00) �   o While in Panama, Van Luyn bought a large stack of bananas; the bananas were quite green, so Van Luyn told the other men that in a couple of days, when the bananas were ripe, they could help themselves (00:58:06:00)  However, by the time Van Luyn woke up the next more, it had been so hot that all the bananas were ripe (00:58:26:00) o During the voyage to the Pacific, the men did not encounter as much bad weather as they had sailing over to Scotland (00:58:52:00) When the General Pope finally arrived at Manila, it was a different experience for the men (00:59:50:00) o Although the men had been through several different countries while in Europe, by and large, the people living in those countries still looked like them; some of the peoples’ features might be different but it was not too extreme (00:59:55:00) o However, when the ship arrived in Manila, some of the local children were swimming out to where the ship had anchored and their facial features were far different from the men’s (01:00:17:00) o While in Europe, the men were always told to fasten the chin-straps of their helmets along the back of the helmet due to German hand grenades, which were concussion grenades (01:00:59:00)  Once the men arrived in Manila, their commander told them that they could change their chin-straps around because the Japanese did not have any concussion grenades (01:01:25:00) o The civilians were just glad to see more American soldiers arriving because they had been through hell with the Japanese (01:01:56:00) After arriving in Manila, the regiment had orders to travel to Nichols Field, which was an airfield; once at the airfield, the men set up tents in a nearby rice paddy (01:02:23:00) o The men were not at Nichols Field for too long before the Philippines’ rainy season began and the whole ground turned to muck (01:03:05:00)  Somehow, the men got hold of some landing strips, which they tied to poles to make walkways between the tents (01:08:14:00) o The men had mosquito netting to go over their bunks to keep out mosquitoes so they were not contract malaria; nevertheless, the men were also forced to take anti-malaria medication (01:03:50:00)  The men could tell those soldiers who had been in the Philippines a while because they had a yellow tint to their skin from the anti-malaria medication (01:04:02:00)  As well, some of the men gave the local women who washed their clothes some of the medication to wash with their clothes; unfortunately, the medication turned the men’s clothes a nice canary yellow (01:04:15:00) Once at the airfield, the men did not do a whole heck of a lot (01:04:57:00) o One of the major things the men did was re-organizing the company baseball teams, using equipment from the other units stationed at the airfield (01:05:04:00)  Van Luyn’s team had some good minor league baseball players and after beating all the other companies, started playing teams from other units that were stationed at the airfield (01:05:46:00) �   Although Van Luyn’s team fared okay against some of the lesser teams, once they started playing better teams, things did not go as well (01:06:18:00)  Eventually, the regimental “athletic director” said they needed to strengthen the team, so they were going to take the best players from all the companies to make “regimental All Star Team” (01:06:32:00)  In the first game Van Luyn pitched, he had not thrown anything for over a month and after the game was over, his arm and shoulder were extremely sore (01:07:13:00)  Another game was scheduled for the following day at a nice stadium; the man who was pitching got through eight innings before he passed out on the mound from exhaustion due to the heat (01:07:34:00)  As the man who had passed out was being looked at, the athletic director told Van Luyn to start warming up; however Van Luyn could not even lift his arm up and told the athletic director to put someone else in (01:08:23:00)  Although Van Luyn was only throwing the ball around, when the umpire said “play ball”, the athletic director told Van Luyn to go in; however, Van Luyn wanted to kick him in the butt because he was in no condition to pitch (01:08:45:00)  Van Luyn finished pitching the remainder of the 8th inning but the game kept going on and on, finally ending after eighteen innings, with Van Luyn pitching every inning (01:09:11:00)  After the game, the caretaker for the baseball field came up to Van Luyn and said that he had taken care of the field for twenty years and during that time, he had seen a number of professional American baseball players at the field; however, that was the best baseball game the man had ever seen (01:09:50:00) All throughout Europe, there was always stuff for the men to drink; this was something that was not available in the Pacific and the men found out that once a month, they would be allocated a beer ration (01:11:28:00) o The day first beer ration arrived as the same day that the Americans dropped the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima (01:12:26:00) o When the men heard the news, they figured that the war was going to be over; like a fool, Van Luyn began drinking and celebrating and ended up drinking his entire case of beer (01:12:35:00) o Although the men were a sorry sight the next morning, they were still happy because there was a great chance they would be going home alive and not dying in an invasion of Japan (01:13:28:00)  Later on, Van Luyn found out that if the war had continued and the invasion went through, his regiment was supposed to land at Japan on D+1 in support of a Marine Division (01:14:01:00) When the official surrender of the Japanese came a few days after the dropping of the atomic bombs, the men just assumed they would be heading home (01:14:42:00) �   o However, the method for men being discharged was based on an individual’s “points” and even if the regiment returned to the United States as a whole, that did not mean all the men were discharged as once (01:15:03:00)  The men who had received commendations, such as Purple Hearts, would have more points than those who did not, such as Van Luyn, and would have been discharged earlier (01:15:17:00) o Although Van Luyn does not regret having to go to Japan, he would have preferred to go home (01:15:37:00) A lot of the Filipino civilians living in the area around Nichols Field tended to live in huts (01:15:57:00) Although the men did get into Manila on a couple of occasions, it was mostly to go to a large sports stadium in the city to watch American football games (01:16:49:00) As far as Van Luyn can remember, there was not much in the way of Filipino civilians working on the airfield (01:17:16:00) Occupation of Japan (01:18:06:00)  Van Luyn’s regiment eventually received orders that they would be sent to Japan, so their orders were changed from taking part in the invasion force to repairing the roof of the building in Tokyo that Gen. MacArthur wanted to use as his headquarters (01:18:06:00) o Van Luyn’s regiment was ordered to go in ahead of Gen. MacArthur’s headquarters, repair the roof and prepare the building to serve as the general’s headquarters (01:18:48:00)  Once the regiment had its orders, the men traveled back to Manila Bay and were told to load onto seven LSTs (Landing Ship-Tank); however, as the men boarded, something changed and the men were told they could only have three of the ships (01:19:26:00) o Some of the men had their equipment loaded onto one of the LSTs but had to take it off; they were then told which three they could load onto (01:19:58:00) o The men boarded the LSTs before the official Japanese surrender papers were signed, so they had to wait for a day while the papers were signed on the U.S.S. Missouri (01:20:15:00)  Eventually, there was word that the ships should not leave because a typhoon was coming (01:20:34:00) o As the men were waiting to board the LST, a Navy jeep pulled up on the dock and two Navy officers get out and began walking down the dock (01:20:54:00)  Eventually, the word was given to load up onto the boats and as the men moved towards the ship, Van Luyn’s company motor sergeant moved in the opposite direction (01:21:43:00)  As the others watch, the sergeant walked up to the Navy jeep, swing it around, and drove it right onto the LST right before the doors to the LST closed (01:22:04:00)  On the voyage to Japan, the Navy personnel were still worried about the after-effects from the typhoon (01:22:41:00) o Because his last name started with “V”, this meant Van Luyn was usually at the back of lines and in the case of the LST, it meant he did not receive a bunk below decks on the LST and he had to sleep on deck (01:22:51:00) �  Out of fear of the typhoon, when the men brought up their Army cots, Navy personnel tied the cots to a the LST’s side rail and showed the men how to tie themselves into the cots (01:23:29:00)  Ultimately, everything was fine and the men made it through the night, by which time the ship was out of the typhoon area (01:24:15:00) o A couple of days after leaving Manila, a soldier on one of the other LSTs died; that LST pulled out of the small convoy, lowered its flag to half-mast, and performed a burial-at-sea for the soldier (01:24:33:00) o Apart from carrying the soldiers, the three LSTs assigned to the regiment also had to carry all the regiments’ equipment, most of what was already in pretty bad shape (01:25:58:00)  Some of the equipment went below decks and some of it was chained to the deck (01:26:22:00) o At one point, Van Luyn talked to a sailor about the possibility of washing his sleeping bag (01:26:36:00)  The sailor said they could hang the bag over the railing and let it drag behind the ship for a few hours; although it was salt water, the bag would be pretty clean (01:27:01:00)  The sailor got a rope and after tying the rope around Van Luyn’s sleeping bag, gently lowered the bundle into the water and let it drag (01:27:20:00)  When Van Luyn pulled the sleeping bag up, he was tickled pink because it did not stink anymore (01:28:16:00)  As Van Luyn was tying the sleeping bag to the railing to let it dry, a couple of his friends came up and asked what he was doing; when he explained what he had done, the others said they wanted to do the same thing to their sleeping bags (01:28:26:00)  Van Luyn showed the others how to tie up the bundles but warned them to lower the bundles gently into the water (01:28:54:00)  Van Luyn started playing cards and the next thing he knew, one of the friends call him over to say that he was done (01:29:13:00)  However, the friend had gone back further along the ship and had tied the rope right behind the septic pipe on the ship (01:29:35:00)  As the friend pulled the bundle up, he saw it was covered in toilet paper and waste (01:29:55:00) When the LSTs arrived in Japan, the men disembarked at Yokohama and spent the night there before being taken by truck to Tokyo (01:30:43:00) o One of the best things the officers did once in Japan was picking the location that the men would stay at in Tokyo; the regiment were the first American forces in Tokyo, which meant the officers had first choice of locations (01:31:46:00)  The regiment ended up staying at a park-like location that had a Meiji shrine built in it and had been built when the Japanese thought they would be hosting the 1940 Olympic Games (01:32:08:00) Continued In William Van Luyn Part 3 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_VanLuynW1181V2 Title A name given to the resource Van Luyn, William (Interview outline and video, 2 of 2), 2011 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-25 Description An account of the resource William Van Luyn was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1925, and was drafted into the Army in 1943. He wanted to go, and was disappointed when he was rejected due to an eye problem, but later talked his way past the recruiter and sent to Camp Ellis, Illinois, to train as an engineer. He joined the 1303rd Engineer General Service Regiment and was assigned to B Company, which specialized in bridge construction. He shipped out to England with his unit in the spring of 1944, and deployed to Normandy shortly after D-Day. After the Normandy breakout, his regiment followed Patton's 3rd Army across France, building and rebuilding bridges all along the way, sometimes under fire from enemy artillery or aircraft. His unit got caught up in the Battle of the Bulge, and then participated in the invasion of Germany, building their longest bridge across the Rhine near Remagen. Shortly after the Germans surrendered, the unit was deployed to the Philippines in preparation for the invasion of Japan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Van Luyn, William Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/433c3b785da4af03948ce4c4c4d9f0b2.mp4 6b3d29a0666c6a21090beef0446ab4af https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4f931bc577a8b47e3555819913bb513e.pdf fff8d7e8dcc57376bdf1be87f0ac320e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project James Tibbe World War II 53 minutes 58 seconds (00:00:04) Early Life -Born in Moddersville, Michigan in 1924 -His father was a farmer and a part time carpenter -He built six houses and part of a church in his lifetime -His mother died the day of, or the day after, he was born -He lived in Moddersville until he was three, or four -His father moved to the Holland-Zeeland area and then James moved there when he was five -When he was ten they moved to Falmouth, Michigan -He had a number of half siblings -His father remarried several times -His second wife had died when she was young -He had two older brothers and two sisters -Both sisters died when they were young -He spent his youth and adolescence in Falmouth -He attended school through the ninth grade (00:03:14) Civilian Conservation Corps -After the ninth grade he joined the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) -In the CCC he was paid $30 each month and given room and board -The purpose was to plant trees, plant grass, or do basic construction projects -He was sent down to Camp Dodge Bloomer near Pontiac, Michigan -From there he was sent to Grand Haven to a CCC camp near there -The job there was to plant grass to stop erosion -Sand from the beach was starting to blow into the town and cause damage -He stayed with the CCC for about twelve, or fourteen, months (00:05:22) Start of the War and Enlisting -When the war began the CCC camps were shut down and he was discharged from it -He entered the service on August 19, 1942 -He chose to enlist rather than get drafted -He felt the need to join -He also wanted more of a choice in determining his direction in the military -The branch that he enlisted in was the Army Air Corps -He was sent to Kalamazoo to enlist and then to Fort Custer, Michigan for processing -At Fort Custer he received his uniform, vaccinations, and necessary medical exams (00:07:24) Training -He was sent to Shepherd Field, Texas for basic training -During basic training he was always kept busy -Did a lot of physical training, marching, and learning how to take commands -He adjusted well to Army life -Felt similar to the CCC at least in terms of the regimen and discipline �-Training lasted until late November 1942 -From Shepherd Field he was sent to Buckley Field, Colorado for Aircraft Armament School -In that school he was taught how to mount the .30 and .50 caliber machine gun on aircraft (00:10:10) Stationed at Wheeler Field -Near the end of the war he was stationed at Wheeler Field in Hawaii -His duty at Wheeler Field was to mount machine guns to bombers coming from the West Coast -They travelled to Hawaii without guns because it required less fuel -He served at Wheeler Field with six of the men that had been at Buckley Field -They were able to mount guns on five or six planes each day (00:12:23) Choosing the Army Air Corps and Downtime during Training -He had been fascinated with flying which is why he chose to go into the Army Air Corps -Prior to going to Aircraft Armament School he hadn’t had any experience with machinery -While he was at Buckley Field he was allowed to go off base to Denver on leave -The men would take a bus to the last trolley station and take the trolley into the city -There was sightseeing to do in and around Denver -He saw the Buffalo Bill grave near Denver -There were also USO Shows to see and Red Cross facilities to go to in Denver (00:14:40) Voyage to Hawaii -He was sent to Hawaii aboard the SS Lurline, a repurposed cruise ship -They sailed without an escort because they sailed fast enough to avoid submarines -Also able to change their course rapidly if needed -They would sail at 28 knots (~32mph) during the day and 32 knots (~36mph) at night -The ship had been stripped down to make it into a troop ship -This meant that he slept in a hammock and not in a cabin -The first night at sea was cold, but the weather was good the rest of the voyage -Only some men got seasick during the voyage to Hawaii -He didn’t though -It took four days to get to Hawaii (00:17:00) Stationed at Hickam Field -When he first arrived at Hawaii in 1943 he was stationed at Hickam Field -Situated in the Pearl Harbor area -When he was at Hickam Field he would load ammunition for the machine guns onto bombers (00:19:13) Stationed at Fiji -From Hickam Field he was sent to the island of Fiji -He stayed at Fiji for twelve (or fourteen) months -He flew to Fiji on a C-47 transport plane -They made three stops on the way to Fiji -First at Canton Island south of Hawaii -Then west to Christmas Island -Then to American Samoa and then finally to Fiji -He had to live in a tent for a while until pre-fabricated barracks were set up for them -During one hurricane the barracks were destroyed so they had to rebuild them -During the hurricane they stayed in a bunker designed to store aircraft during air raids -The storm lasted thirty six hours -When planes stopped at Fiji they would have to put wooden boards over the air intake vents -This was to stop birds from building nests in the air intake vents �-Otherwise the nests would clog the carburetors -His job was also to unload bombers and transport aircraft that landed at Fiji (00:24:10) Returning to Hawaii Pt. 1 -After being at Fiji he was sent back to Hickam Field -While he was at Hickam he saw wounded men unloaded from transport aircraft -They were unloaded with a forklift that had been turned into an elevator of sorts -Most of the men that were wounded had suffered debilitating injuries from the fighting (00:25:57) Living Conditions on Fiji -When on Fiji he also worked with Australians that were stationed there as well -They were good men, and good men to work with -Only resented them for the fact that they brought mutton to the base -He knew one Greek man who worked in the mess hall that was best cook they had -He had originally been on the flight line, but had suffered hearing damage -Before the day began he would go out and find pineapple and eggplant to add to meals -Electricity wasn’t available on the base except for extremely necessary things -There was only one generator on the base -However, at night they would hook a movie projector up to it and show movies -If the weather permitted USO Shows would be performed -He remembers seeing the Bob Hope Show (00:30:03) Returning to Hawaii Pt. 2 and Wheeler Field -He didn’t enjoy being at Hickam Field because of the military formality there -Fiji had been a more relaxed environment -From Hickam Field he was sent to Wheeler Field -He remembers there was a policy called a “recognition pass” for incoming aircraft -They had to circle the airfield to verify that they were friendly -If they didn’t check out they would be shot down -He remembers one B-25 bomber having to skip the recognition pass and land -It was because they were so low on fuel that they had to do that -Their engines lost power as they landed, which meant they coasted in -During his second time in Hawaii President Roosevelt visited to meet with General MacArthur -He got to seem them drive by in a jeep -Soldiers lined the road they were on to show troop strength as well as be a human shield -Wheeler Field was a far better assignment than Hickam Field -They were up in the mountains away from the formality that was present in Honolulu -They worked for six days each week and then had Thursdays off (00:33:02) Downtime in Hawaii -On his days off he would travel down to Honolulu -While he was in Hawaii he got a chance to see Waikiki Beach before it was developed -He got a chance to visit Pearl Harbor during each time he was stationed in Hawaii -The first time he saw it there were still prevalent signs of the attack in 1941 -Oil slicks, damaged ships and buildings -The second time he was there it had been cleaned up, but there was still damage (00:34:50) Awareness of the Progress of the War -When traveling in aircraft there was a radio onboard that wasn’t used for communication -He remembers traveling from one island to another and hearing about D-Day �(00:35:40) End of the War and End of Service -Before the war ended he was already stateside and was at Hamilton Field, California -He was essentially just on the base, not doing much -From Hamilton he was sent to Fairfield-Suisun Army Air Base (now Travis Air Force Base) -Being stationed there consisted of further sitting around -He was in Union Station in Chicago when the war ended -He was returning home from being on leave -He remembers hearing President Truman announce on the radio that the war was over -He went to a bar and got a few bottles to take with him for the train ride back to base -It was a four day train ride back to Fairfield-Suisun -Once he got back to Fairfield-Suisun he was sent to Lowry Field, Colorado -He was discharged there in early December 1945 (00:39:18) Military Formality and Process -When he was at Fiji there was a colonel that had gone to West Point -He was acting as the commanding officer -This colonel ordered a soldier to pick up a piece of paper he saw on the ground -Soldier’s reply: “You saw it first, you pick it up” -On Fiji there was also an engineer officer who oversaw maintenance of planes and the runway -There was always a lot of rain on Fiji which would wash out the gravel runway -Rather than just use a dump truck to haul gravel he decided that the men should be used -They would gather gravel with shovels and fill in the runway by hand -Fiji and Wheeler Field were more relaxed than Hickam Field was -This was due to the fact that there were less high ranking military personnel -The food was also much better at Wheeler Field (00:42:16) Interactions with Civilians -When he was at Fiji he remembers the islanders putting on a war dance for them -When he was in Hawaii he got to see an authentic hula show -The Fiji islanders would do laundry for the Americans, provided that they were paid -The English brought in Indians to do work for them -This was because the islanders refused to work for the English -The Indians would make jewelry and sell it to the servicemen on the island -He bought a couple trinkets that he later gave to his wife (00:44:25) Life after the War -When he got out of the Army he joined the 52-20 Club in Michigan -Given $20 each week for fifty two weeks for having been in the military -In May 1946 he moved down to Grand Rapids, Michigan to look for work -He has lived in Grand Rapids ever since -His first job was with OAK & Strong Construction doing general labor for them -He went to diesel school in Chicago on the GI Bill -He went on to get a job with Michigan Tractor and stayed with them for thirty six years (00:46:04) Veteran Group Involvement and Being a WWII Veteran -He joined the American Legion -He has been a member for sixty four years -He has visited the World War Two Memorial in Washington D.C. -Feels that it is a good memorial -Feels that it had to be put up considering the sacrifice and the gravity of World War Two �-At the memorial people came up to him and asked him questions and to shake his hand -Basically to show their thanks for his serving (00:49:50) Reflections on Service -He can’t be sure of the impact that his service had on him -He feels that it probably helped to make him more mature though -He feels that everyone capable of service should attempt to do something for the country -It helped him become independent, develop people skills, and become a more self-reliant person (00:50:55) Rags the Dog -On Fiji there was the 70th Bombardment Squadron and it had a dog named “Rags” -He was named this because of being hairy and occasionally used a hand rag by the men -He would rotate between the barracks and sleep in a different one each night -He would also occasionally stow away on bombers when they flew to different islands -He would always come back to Fiji though � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_TibbeJ0829V Title A name given to the resource Tibbe, James (Interview outline and video), 2010 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-18 Description An account of the resource James Tibbe is a World War Two veteran who was born in Moddersville, Michigan in 1924. After completing the ninth grade he left school and joined the Civilian Conservation Corps and worked around Michigan doing public works projects. On August 19, 1942 he enlisted in the Army Air Corps and received training at Shepherd Field, Texas and at Buckley Field, Colorado to become an armorer for bombers. He was stationed at Wheeler Field, Hawaii at Fiji and at Hickam Field, Hawaii over the course of the war. Just before the end of the war he was sent back to the continental United States where he served at Hamilton Field, California, Fairfield-Suisun Army Air Base, and Lowry Field, Colorado. He was discharged in December 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tibbe, James Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a9faff42bd34dc78bd6411f3294c79c.mp4 82f5710f7045a1f759920112be1b4c7a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce3ad5c3cfd324e8b0cc39c066d6d4e1.pdf 18468bf7cca0eae8fcf00a31d4e6d8bb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Lambert Struble World War II 45 minutes 28 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in Muir, Michigan on September 18, 1925 -Located in Lyons Township part of Ionia County -He grew up on a farm near Muir -They were able to keep the farm through the Great Depression -It was 160 acres -They grew oats, wheat, other various grains, and raised hogs -He was the middle child of three -He finished high school, but not until 1955 -He had left school after the eighth grade to go to work at a nearby orchard (00:02:12) Start of the War -He was out milking cows and there was a radio on in the barn -He heard the news that the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor -He had anticipated that the United States would eventually get drawn into the war -Thought that it would be because of German aggression, not Japanese aggression though -He thought that the war would be over before he would have to serve (00:03:35) Getting Drafted & Basic Training -He turned eighteen in 1943 and received a draft notice almost immediately -He had to report for duty before Christmas 1943 -He reported to Camp Grant, Illinois to be inducted -At the time there was an epidemic of polio in the camp -From there he was sent to Camp Wolters, Texas for basic training -Travelled there by train and the ride took two days -As they passed through small towns the women would feed the recruits -At the time Camp Wolters was a brand new camp -It was a huge camp with a perimeter that was seven miles long -The barracks were flimsy, tar paper shacks though -Poorly insulated which meant the wind could just cut through the walls -He started off with weapons training and was placed in a heavy weapons company -Trained with the .30 caliber machine gun and the 81mm mortar -Also received discipline training and went on marches -He was in good physical shape, so the physical training was not much of a challenge for him -He had grown up hunting, so marksmanship training was not difficult for him either -Everyone that was being trained was cooperative -Drill sergeants were tough, but reasonable -He stayed at Camp Wolters until May 1944 -He was allowed to go off the base to visit the town of Tyler, Texas -There wasn’t much to do there though -He remembers a sailor was in town on leave, and it was a strange sight �(00:10:25) Pre-Deployment -From Camp Wolters he was sent to Fort Benjamin Harrison near Indianapolis, Indiana -A unit was getting organized there, but there were problems with getting enough men -He stayed at Fort Benjamin Harrison for a little under half a year -He trained with mortars and machine guns every day -When it came time to leave he was given equipment and sent to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey -He stayed in Camp Kilmer for a couple days waiting to ship out (00:13:46) Deployment to Europe -In Camp Kilmer he boarded an old repurposed British superliner and left in October 1944 -He had been following the course of the war after being drafted -Thought that the Germans would have surrendered after D-Day -It took eight days to sail across the Atlantic Ocean -Men were getting incredibly seasick on the voyage over -They slept in larger rooms, not in individual cabins -There were bunk beds that were six to eight beds high -They were allowed to go on deck -On the voyage over they were treated to a USO Show by the singer Frances Langford -She happened to be on their ship going to Europe to perform for soldiers there (00:17:09) Arrival in the United Kingdom -They landed at Firth of Clyde, Scotland -He was placed on a train and sent south to the small English town of Cubbington -There wasn’t much space in the country due to the influx of American soldiers -At this point he was still just a replacement and didn’t have a unit yet -He stayed in England during the Battle of the Bulge (December 16, 1944-January 25, 1945) -While in England he was just looking for ways to try and kill time -He would visit the village of Cubbington and some of the surrounding area -Never got to go into any of the larger cities like London though -The English civilians were welcoming -There was some resentment though towards American soldiers -Felt that they were “overpaid, oversexed, and over here” -He feels that it was an accurate statement -American servicemen were paid more, which made them more desirable -He spent Christmas 1944 on the base in England -He started to wonder if he would ever get to go to mainland Europe (00:21:09) Joining the 106th Infantry Division -In early 1945 he was sent over to mainland Europe to join a unit there -He crossed the English Channel on a barge and landed on the coast of France -He was placed on a train and went to the replacement depot near Nancy, France -He stayed there for a month waiting to be assigned to a unit -Assigned to D Company 1st Battalion 424th Infantry Regiment 106th Infantry Division -He was placed on a truck and taken to join the division -There was no major activity when he joined D Company -He remembers that there were truckloads of replacements -Units were being rebuilt after the losses from the Battle of the Bulge -There were a lot of battle hardened and older soldiers in his company �-He, and the other replacements, were treated well by the veteran soldiers -They tried to teach the replacements useful things -They stayed in their camp until the units were strong enough to move out (00:26:44) Advancing through Belgium -After they moved out they advanced through Belgium -There was still German resistance as they pushed through the country -He remembers the first time that he was shot at it was a sniper harassing their position -They traveled by truck and covered six to eight miles each day -At night they would set up temporary camps on the side of the road (00:28:37) Advancing into Germany -As they moved into Germany they started to see more evidence of the war -Dead livestock and spent ordnance -Surprisingly, towns and villages were mostly intact -As they passed through them German civilians just stayed out of the way -They never stopped in the towns to make camp -As they moved deeper into Germany they started to see more German prisoners of war -Some of the prisoners were either very old, or very young -The final push into Germany was fairly easy -By this point there was no fear of the Luftwaffe since the Allies controlled the skies -It was a rarity to see just one German fighter plane -When they did it would never attack them (00:31:20) End of the War in Europe -At the end of the war there were still pockets of German resistance -When the war ended he was as close to the frontlines as he had ever been during the war -He was in northern Germany on Victory in Europe Day (May 8, 1945) -After the war he didn’t see any Soviet troops, but he did see British troops -Most likely because they were in the British Occupation Zone -After the war they set up defensive positions to insure the Soviets didn’t try to advance further -They were camped out in the German countryside, living out of tents -After the war he saw more German civilians -The civilians were cooperative and willing to help American soldiers -He remembers buying hay off of a farmer to make a bed -They would regularly trade cigarettes and food with the German civilians -He stayed in northern Germany for about a month (00:35:52) Occupation of Germany Pt. 1 -He was moved into the southern part of Germany into the American Occupation Zone -They were set up on an old German army base -Stayed there for about one month -He remembers a man shooting himself in the hand, so that he could go home sooner -Last he heard the man was going to be court martialed -The occupation duty was good (00:38:05) Contact with Home -He stayed in contact with home by way of V-mail -A way of sending and receiving letters by using microfilm for faster transportation -He also received care packages from home -Remembers getting fruitcakes and other nonperishable treats �(00:38:38) Occupation of Germany Pt. 2 -No fraternization with German civilians was allowed -Men would still go out to meet with German women though -If they were caught they were brought back to base and imprisoned -He was still in Germany by the time Christmas 1945 came -He was no longer on the base, but was in a brick house that been abandoned -They were mostly just a force there, and they weren’t carrying out any specific duties at the time (00:40:40) Coming Home & Life after the War -He was sent home in August 1946 -A full year after the complete end of the war in August 1945 -He was sent to Camp Lucky Strike in northern France to be processed -He stayed there for about two (or three) weeks -He boarded a Liberty Ship bound for the United States -It took eight days to get home -The weather was good, so it was not a bad voyage -The ship arrived in New Jersey and he reported to Camp Kilmer to be discharged -After returning home he went to work for Portland Equipment Company -Worked there for three years -After that he worked for the State of Michigan as a prison guard at Ionia Prison -Worked there for thirty three years (00:44:02) Reflections on Service -It was a different way of life going into the Army -He learned from his experiences -Taught him to look after himself, because no one else will -He would do it again if he had to � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_StrubleL1715V Title A name given to the resource Struble, Lambert (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-12-15 Description An account of the resource Lambert Struble is a World War II veteran who was born in Muir, Michigan in 1925. He grew up there and in 1943 he was drafted into the Army and was inducted at Camp Grant, Illinois. He received heavy weapons training at Camp Wolters, Texas and then later at Fort Benjamin Harrison, Indiana. In October 1944 he was sent over to Europe out of Camp Kilmer, New Jersey and was stationed in Covington, England during that winter. In early 1945 he was sent over to mainland Europe where he joined D Company 1st Battalion 424th Infantry Regiment of the 106th Infantry Division. He participated in the advance through Belgium, and then the final push into Germany. After the war he was part of the American occupying force in northern Germany, and then in southern Germany until August 1946 when he was sent home and was discharged out of Camp Kilmer, New Jersey. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Struble, Lambert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb01bff1c2dd7f5e8a9a9966c10d8d19.mp4 6bb00fe26fd465d41f5199c03a5ff56d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dec9a43f3911119920e982358b8376fe.pdf 4435658a9892db764c8193fa7babaa56 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Bea Foster Spivey World War II-Homefront 10 minutes 11 seconds (00:00:01) Husband's Service in the South Pacific -They were married during World War II -Husband was a staff sergeant in the Army -Enjoyed being in the Army -They had an eighteen month old baby when he left -Prior to the war he had played baseball -Went to a camp, so he could learn how to join a professional team -He was a semi-professional pitcher -Pitching shoulder was injured during the war in the Philippines -When he was in the Philippines a fellow soldier was harassing a Filipino -He stepped in and stopped the harassment -Moved into an area with caves in the Philippines -He went in and encountered a Japanese soldier -He shot first, but the Japanese soldier was able to shoot back -Got shot in the ear and didn't even realize it -Later got wounded in the shoulder by artillery shrapnel -Served in New Guinea -Able to go to Australia on leave -Enjoyed going to the bars to get the local milk -He didn't drink, but enjoyed the milk because it was so thick and sweet -His name was William Hubert Foster -Took part in the liberation of the Philippines (October 20,1944-August 15, 1945) -Her brother was in the Navy during the liberation of the Philippines (00:06:22) The Homefront -She lived with William's family for a while -Then lived with her Aunt Julie -Moved up to Michigan to live with her parents -Worked in a Ford factory during the war -Started off by working a rivet gun -Moved on to spot welding aircraft wings -Enjoyed working at the factory -Everything was rationed -It was hard to feed a family off of rations, but her mother was able to do it -Near the end of the war she went to work in a nightclub as a cleaning lady (00:08:59) End of the War -Had moved back to South Carolina to live with William's family -When the war ended everyone got in their cars and drove around honking their horns -Everyone was celebrating everywhere � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SpiveyD1751V Title A name given to the resource Spivey, Beatrice Foster (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-24 Description An account of the resource Bea Foster Spivey was on the homefront during the Second World War and worked in a Ford factory in Michigan during the war. She was married and had a baby during the war, and her husband, William Hubert Foster served in the Army as a staff sergeant and saw action on New Guinea and on the Philippines and was wounded twice on the Philippines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spivey, Beatrice Foster Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Childress, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f28204f59839141f2f15e8a1dafac40a.m4v 59ffdcce99161624524ed24c1329bc0e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6ae4ed0c100211f0fa70849a7adda70.pdf 1883a24b741bccfd17f7e234846de753 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Everett Slaughter Jr. Vietnam War 1 hour 37 minutes 46 seconds (00:00:23) Early Life -Born on September 15, 1946, in Fayetteville, Arkansas -Grew up in the town of Elkins 12 miles east of Fayetteville -Father worked as an auto body worker -Mother worked as a nurse’s aid -Kicked out of high school in ninth grade -Worked in a gas station, and in a turkey processing factory (00:01:49) Volunteering for the Draft -Brother came home from and encouraged Everett to join the military -Volunteered for the draft in 1965 -Volunteering for the draft meant getting the draft service done before being called to serve -Better than waiting for the draft notice to come -Shorter enlistment (two years) as opposed to enlisting (four years) (00:02:55) Basic Training Pt. 1 -Reported for basic training on May 25, 1965 -Aware of the developing situation in Vietnam -Marines entered Vietnam in March 1965, and the Army followed in May 1965 -Sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for basic training -It was difficult because of the heat in the summer -Did his basic training in June and July -Came home for two weeks of leave after basic training (00:04:27) Advanced Individual Training Pt. 1 -Returned to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for advanced individual training (AIT) -Did AIT in August and September 1965 -Had the military occupational specialty of 11-Hotel (antitank soldier) (00:04:42) Basic Training Pt. 2 -Basic training started with marching and drills to instill cohesion as a unit -Received basic weapons training with a focus on using a rifle -Learned about basic infantry tactics -Received some First Aid training -Strong emphasis on discipline -Kept in the company area for the first month of basic training -In the second month recruits were allowed to go to the PX (Army general store) and movies -Too scared to do anything but follow the orders of drill sergeants -Adjusted well partly because of that fear -In good physical shape for basic training (00:06:50) Advanced Individual Training Pt. 2 -During AIT he received his military occupational specialty training -His AIT focused on using antitank weapons -106mm, 90 mm recoilless rifles and 3.5 inch rocket launcher -He never fired a live round during AIT, but they had old tanks as targets -AIT lasted six weeks �(00:09:30) First Deployment to Vietnam -Told to report to the 1st sergeant in the orderly room at Fort Polk -Received his deployment orders for Vietnam -First man in his company to Vietnam -Ultimately deployed with ten other men from his unit -Placed on a train bound for Oakland, California -Stayed in a large, 10,000-man reception center for outgoing soldiers -Stayed for a week doing processing and work details -Flew out of Travis Air Force Base -Stopped at Guam and the Philippines -Flew on a C-141 transport (00:11:40) Arrival in Vietnam -Landed at Tan Son Nhut Airbase near Saigon -Incredibly hot, and it felt like walking into a furnace -Stayed at a reception center for four or five days while he waited for his unit assignment (00:12:25) Assignment to 1st Infantry Division -Assigned to A Company, 2nd Battalion, 18th Infantry Regiment of the 1st Infantry Division -Taken to Bien Hoa by truck -2nd Battalion had a base near Bien Hoa in the middle of the jungle -Every smaller unit wanted a new soldier -Placed in the mortars & antitank platoon -They were on the base at the time -He was assigned to a gun crew -Four men per gun, and he worked as a loader (or assistant gunner) -Had a 460 pound gun that fired 54 pound rounds -High-explosive antitank (HEAT), fragmentation, and flechette round -Stayed on the base at Bien Hoa for four or five days doing training and trash detail (00:16:22) Patrols around Bien Hoa -Got his first patrol mission four or five days after joining the unit -Went into the jungle for a patrol -Taken to the area of operations by truck -Patrolled for one or two weeks then returned to base -Left the 460 pound gun on base during routine patrols -Carried three mortar shells, and he was the radio-telephone operator so he carried the PRC-25 radio -Sometimes they encountered resistance, and other times they didn’t -Got into one bad firefight where they sustained a lot of casualties -Typically fought against the Viet Cong -In October 1965, the North Vietnamese had yet to penetrate that far into South Vietnam -Saw a lot of booby traps -Mechanical traps like trip-wire bombs, and primitive traps like punji pits -Once in a while they encountered snipers -Usually ambushed the Viet Cong, not the other way around -Operated as a company on patrols, making them a strong force in the region -Received intelligence about areas with enemy presence, then went to investigate -In the particularly bad firefight they were taken to a landing zone by helicopter -He was the radio-telephone operator, so he called in medevac helicopters to get the wounded -Had more wounded than dead soldiers -Pushed the Viet Cong out of the area and inflicted heavy casualties on the Viet Cong -Left behind a lot of dead bodies �(00:22:37) Contact with Vietnamese Pt. 1 -He didn’t have to deal with the Rules of Engagement because he was a radio operator -Had a South Vietnamese policeman with his company -Interrogated prisoners-of-war on site before sending them to the rear for processing -Patrolled through larger villages -Remembers they thoroughly searched one village -The Americans searched the houses -South Vietnamese interrogated villagers about ties to the Viet Cong (00:24:40) Further Patrols -Moved to Di An Base Camp for the last four months of his first tour in Vietnam -Defoliated area with a built-up base -There was a sniper that shot at the base, but the sniper wasn’t a good shot -Continued patrols out of the new base -Operated in jungles and rice paddies -Operated out of the abandoned Michelin Rubber Plantation for one month (00:26:36) Contact with Vietnamese Pt. 2 -Found the Vietnamese people to be small people -Didn’t think about them much unless they were a combatant (00:27:20) Awareness of Vietnam War -Didn’t know why he was in Vietnam aside from the fact that there was a war -Came to understand that the Vietnam War was, essentially, a civil war -The North and South fighting for total control of the country (00:27:53) Visiting Saigon -Visited Saigon a couple times, both for business and relaxation -Brought a supply sergeant to Tan Son Nhut Airbase to gather supplies -Went to downtown Saigon a couple times to visit the bars -Crowded city, and he never saw so many bicycles -Roads were filled with people, which came as a surprise to him -Dropped off in downtown Saigon and told to be back at the drop off point by 6 p.m. -Told to stay away from the women due to venereal diseases (00:29:37) Morale on the First Tour -Morale seemed to be good -Enjoyable time even being in Vietnam -Had good commissioned officers and experienced non-commissioned officers -Platoon sergeant was a good man -A couple of the sergeants had been in the Army for a few years (00:31:26) R&R on First Tour -Got an R&R to Bangkok, Thailand -Enjoyed visiting the city -Given the choice of locale to visit, and allowed to pick the time to go on R&R -Able to go bowling, swimming, to relax, and there were women -Relaxing to not be in a war zone -Chance to lie beside a pool and sleep without worrying about being attacked -Depressing to return to Vietnam even though his first tour had gone well (00:33:11) Drug Use & Race Relations on First Tour -A few men smoked weed, but they only did that on base -Platoon sergeant and section sergeant were black men, and there was a Native American in his unit -Rest of the men in the platoon were white -Everyone seemed to get along well with each other �(00:34:38) Section Sergeant Wounded -Remembers when his section sergeant got paralyzed from the waist down -He was lying beside Everett during a firefight, and a piece of shrapnel hit him in the back -Everett carried him off the battlefield when the fight ended (00:35:22) End of First Tour & Reenlisting -His first tour ended in October 1966 -He had decided to stay in the Army -Made the decision when he initially joined the Army -Liked being a soldier (00:36:15) Stationed at Fort Jackson -Stationed at Fort Jackson, South Carolina -Reenlisted at Fort Jackson three months after his arrival -Served as instructor on the M16 rifle range -Still relatively new weapon and preceded by the M14 -M14: 9 pounds, long rifle, .308 rounds, and heavy ammo -M16: 5 pounds, short rifle, and smaller and lighter ammo -M16 had technical problems -Jammed easily (even though he never encountered that) -M16 was an improved weapon, but he preferred the M14 for its durability and accuracy -Stationed at Fort Jackson for one year (00:40:17) Stationed in Panama -Received orders for the Panama Canal Zone -Part of infantry training with A Company in the 10th Infantry Regiment -Trained at the Jungle School -Learned how to survive and fight in the jungle -Did navigation courses -Every day he did something different -Rappelling courses, escape & evasion, and river crossing exercises -During mock combat, he played the enemy -Served at the Jungle School for three or four months -Stationed in the Panama Canal Zone for 18 months (00:43:05) Stationed at Fort Benning -Sent to Fort Benning, Georgia -Worked as a supply clerk for training command -Dealt with general supplies and ammunition -He was an E4 (specialist or corporal) -It was like having a regular day job at Fort Benning -Worked from 7:30 or 8 a.m. to 4:30 or 5 p.m. -Lived in the barracks on base -Happy when that assignment ended because office work bored him -Stationed at Fort Benning for six months (00:44:57) Redeployment to Vietnam & Assignment to 101st Airborne Division -Received orders for another deployment to Vietnam -Didn’t have to do any additional training since he’d already qualified with the M16 rifle -Sent to Washington and took a chartered commercial flight to Vietnam -Arrived at Tan Son Nhut Airbase -Sent up to Phu Bai, then to Camp Evans -On his second tour, he went to Vietnam as a replacement -Assigned to B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, of the 101st Airborne Divsion �-Stayed at Camp Evans for three or four days -Issued supplies, an M16 rifle, a rucksack, and ammunition -Took a helicopter to Firebase Ripcord, and another helicopter to B Company in the field -Joined B Company in April 1970 -Did the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School at Camp Eagle in Phu Bai -Went on patrols near Camp Eagle, but nothing much happened -SERTS was more for the men that had never been to Vietnam -He was the only replacement with one tour under his belt (00:48:40) Firebase Ripcord -Firebase Ripcord was established to support infantry in the A Shau Valley -It essentially spent its entire existence in a defensive situation -It was 3,000 feet above sea level, and he was able to look down and see the clouds -Firebase was surrounded by jungle -Had mortars, howitzers, defenses, and one infantry company defending the base (00:50:43) Patrols with B Company -Met a platoon from B Company at a landing zone in the jungle -Platoon had blown up the trees to form a temporary landing zone for him -Platoon greeted him, and they seemed glad to get a new soldier -First night in the field he patrolled the night defensive position perimeter -No contact with enemy forces for the first few weeks -There were about 30 men in the platoon -Made their own trails, because established trails were susceptible to ambushes -Stayed in the field for a month -Resupplied by helicopter -Spent days on patrol looking for enemy forces or enemy supplies -Killed the enemy soldiers, and destroyed the enemy supplies -Found ammunition, food, medical supplies, sleeping gear, and clothing -Took no casualties during his first month with B Company -Rotated onto Ripcord, then off for patrols, then on again (00:56:22) Battle of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 1 -On Firebase Ripcord when the battle began on July 1, 1970 -It was relaxing on the base except when the North Vietnamese attacked the base with artillery -Happened every time a helicopter came to the firebase -North Vietnamese had artillery in the hills around Ripcord -Difficult to find and almost impossible to destroy -Had noticed more enemy activity in June 1970 -B Company got lucky being stationed on Ripcord when the battle began -Didn’t get into any major firefights during his time with B Company (00:59:06) Stand Down at Camp Evans -Went to Camp Evans for stand downs -Did a major stand down in June before the battle in July -Chance to see a doctor, deal with personal things, and go to the rifle range -Also a chance to shower, got hot food, and a pair of new boots (01:00:05) Battle of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 2 -Battle began in earnest on July 2nd with the Battle of Hill 902 -B Company was guarding the base during the battle -He was in a bunker near a helipad and M45 Quadmount positions -Set out mines at night and patrolled the perimeter -Had barbed and concertina wire around the base, and foo gas (barrels of makeshift napalm) �-The siege of Ripcord lasted a little over three weeks when the firebase fell on July 23rd -When the helicopters came in he always hunkered down in his bunker -Remembers a Huey helicopter getting shot down over the helipad by his bunker -North Vietnamese used 120mm artillery rounds and mortars to bombard the base -The bunker was not designed to take a direct hit, but to protect from shrapnel -Dug into the earth, corrugated steel roof, and sandbags on top of the roof -Didn’t see enemy troops outside of the perimeter -One American soldier accidentally got outside the perimeter -The other soldiers mistook him from an enemy soldier and threw grenades at him -He took cover behind a rock and survived the ordeal without getting hurt -Chinook helicopter crashed on July 18th destroying the artillery and the artillery ammunition -Saw the helicopter come in, go down, the explosion of the crash, then the secondary explosions -Stayed in his bunker until all the ammunition exploded (01:09:36) Contact with Vietnamese Pt. 3 -Had a Chieu Hoi scout in his platoon -Note: Chieu Hoi scouts were North Vietnamese defectors that joined the US/South Vietnam -The scout was no help at all (01:10:30) Fall of Firebase Ripcord -On July 23rd, the evacuation of Firebase Ripcord began -He left his bunker and destroyed his grenade cache -Saw a wounded man and helped carry him to one of the helicopters -Colonel Lucas, the commander of 2nd Battalion, was killed-in-action during the evacuation -Boarded one of the last helicopters and flew to Camp Evans -Once all Americans were off Ripcord, B-52 bombers destroyed the firebase (01:13:38) Patrols after Ripcord -Took a chance to relax, regroup, and get new gear since he left everything on Firebase Ripcord -Allowed to relax at Camp Evans for one week -Continued with patrols in the jungle -Stopped at Firebase Rakkasan briefly -Patrolled the hills in the jungles, had minimal contact, and never went into the A Shau Valley -Mostly operated in the Lowlands (01:15:45) Morale on Second Tour -Morale was pretty good considering what had happened at Firebase Ripcord -Went to Camp Eagle on occasion -Chance to drink and watch Vietnamese bands perform (01:16:30) R&R on Second Tour -Took his R&R to Taiwan -Guide took him to theaters, movies, and to live performances -Enjoyed his time in Taiwan (01:17:24) Race Relations in Second Tour -Had two or three black men in his platoon in B Company -Never saw racism or tension (01:18:30) End of Second Tour -Spent the last 30 days of his second tour at Camp Evans -Checked perimeter bunkers and assigned positions -Brought the men food and coffee -Caught some men asleep during guard duty (01:19:45) Drug Use in Second Tour -Saw some men throwing up after leaving the mess hall �-He joked about the food being bad -Told that the men were heroin users, and eating made them sick (01:20:30) Stationed in West Germany -Returned to the United States then received orders for a tour in Germany -Sent to Augsburg, Germany, to join the 1st Battalion, 18th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Division -Relocated to Stuttgart -Most of the non-commissioned officers had served in Vietnam -There was more racial tension in Germany than in Vietnam -Didn’t affect everyone, and he never saw it in his platoon, but knew it existed -Didn’t have any problems with the Germans -They seemed friendly -Welcomed American soldiers because they spent money at German businesses -Went on a field exercise -Ran into Germans having a BBQ -Germans invited the soldiers to sit and eat with them, so they did -Soviet invasion was always in the back of his mind -Stationed on the Fulda Gap if the Soviet Union invaded western Europe -Patrolled the area several times -Had gun positions and TOW missiles -Had fallback positions -Did three tours in Germany, for a total of 10 ½ years -In Augsburg during the Munich 1972 Olympics (01:27:00) Getting Married -Went to Turkey in August 1972 to get married -Friend married a Turkish woman, and invited Everett to a party -The friend’s wife had invited a Turkish friend, Everett met her, and they began dating -Got married in Istanbul -Nice city filled with old American cars -Turks bought cars from American servicemen before they went home (01:29:15) Army Career -Stayed in the Army for 20 years and retired in 1985 -Did three years with the 1st Infantry Division in Germany (first tour in West Germany) -Sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana, to serve as a TOW missile instructor -In the Army during its transition to an all-volunteer military -A lot of high school graduates looking for college payment -Young people looking for guidance -Some young people given the option of joining the Army, or going to jail -Found the draft to be more of an equalizer, but the all-volunteer Army worked -Did a second tour in Germany with the 1st Armored Division -Worked with antitank systems and armored personnel carriers -Similar to his first tour in Germany -Lived in government quarters off base with his wife -Stationed there for four years -Sent to Fort Carson, Colorado, to serve with the 4th Infantry Division -Wife enjoyed the United States -Got her driver’s license -Had two children -Stationed there for one year -Returned to Germany for another tour in Wurzburg �-Stationed there for 3 ½ years -Retired after his third tour in Germany (01:33:29) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -Didn’t like Germany because it was so cold -His best assignment was Panama -Worked from 4 a.m. to 2 p.m. then spent the rest of the day at the beach (01:34:22) Life after Service -Got a job in Turkey and worked for a company for one year -Lost his work visa due to politics -Returned to the United States, but his son got accepted into a prestigious Turkish school -Came back to Turkey, got a job with his old company, and worked in Istanbul -Has two homes: one in the United States and one in Turkey -He and his wife live in Turkey for about nine months out of the year -Come back to the US for three months out of the year to visit family and friends -His daughter lives in Washington, and his siblings still live in Arkansas (01:37:15) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -Army made him a better person -More understanding of different people -More appreciative of different kinds of people � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SlaughterE1964V Title A name given to the resource Slaughter, Everett Jr (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-06 Description An account of the resource Everett Slaughter Jr. was born in Fayetteville, Arkansas, on September 15, 1946. He volunteered for the draft in April 1965. He received his basic training and advanced individual training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. For his first tour in Vietnam he was deployed in October 1965 and he joined A Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 18th Infantry Regiment of the 1st Infantry Division. They operated around Bien Hoa for eight months, then four months around Di An Base Camp. He returned to the United States and worked as an instructor on the rifle range at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, then went to the Panama Canal Zone to serve with A Company in the 10th Infantry Regiment. He worked at Fort Benning, Georgia, as a supply clerk before receiving orders for a second deployment to Vietnam. He arrived in Vietnam in April 1970 and joined B Company of 2nd Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. They patrolled around Firebase Ripcord from April through June, and were on Ripcord during the battle in July 1970. He completed his second tour in April 1971. He ultimately spent 20 years in the Army serving in West Germany three separate times, at Fort Polk as TOW missile instructor, and at Fort Carson, Colorado. He retired in 1985. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Slaughter, Everett Jr. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf