388 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f0a13faab25132364d71385125a195c.mp4 e6e3551099a1d5197170ffe9b63d5ec8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f1bb0a1b8c9075a50d13ccb4d1fa9862.pdf 3ce1e9b3e8db8494753d5197cb14eb24 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW Jack Hill #2 Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 13, 2007 Interviewer: “He is going to tell that story again, and when you grab your gun, don’t grab the microphone”. OK. It was dark, when it’s dark you don’t move at night, nobody moves because you’re always thinking the Japs will be coming in at you. This one night it was pitch black and I am in my hammock and I felt somebody touching my screen and I always slept with my .45 right on my breast here and I cocked it real quick and I was ready to fire it and Sawicki heard that cock and he started stuttering, he stuttered anyway, dddda, he says, mmmme, it’s me and I said, “what are you doing Al?” He said. “I was taking a leak and I can’t find my way back”. He didn’t want to pee by his own place. I’ll tell you another one about the hammock. They dropped down so matter where you had them, you had them tight and the trees would bend down and down you would be on the floor. 1:16 This one time I woke up in the morning, the sun had come up real fast and I looked up about this high, the top of my hammock and there was this big, big spider, a Black Widow and I could see the yellow and he was so damn big I could see him moving his mouth and you can’t get out of that damn hammock because it had a zipper and he was looking at me and I thought oh, oh, oh, and I had a pistol right here so I just went “poom” and he went all over and about everybody and his brother was running over to see what had happened to me. I had a hole in my hammock now and I don’t know how he got in there, but I was glad to get him out of there. 2:15 1 �Interviewer: “ You said the Japanese often came in at night and were a threat to you while you were sleeping. How often did that occur?” Not very often, but they tried to, but we got pretty sharp too, we saved tin cans, our ration cans, “C” cans and we rigged a line up so they would jiggle at night then. The wild pigs would run around and they were hitting them and we would think they were Japs coming in, but they never really—unless we were on the line fighting, but in the staging area, no, we were all right. Interviewer: “Did you guys ever use the native people for anything?” All the time, yeah, yeah. 3:15 They carried our ammunition and carried our wounded and took care of everything real good. I have a picture I’ll have to show you of this one, he was a white haired guy and he was the head guy of the tribe and I was smoking a cigarette and the one native he could speak English and the white haired guy was going like this (moving his hands) and I said, “Frank what’s he want?” He said, “He’s going to put a “voodoo” on you if you don’t give him a cigarette” and I had a Thompson submachine gun you know and I was sitting there like you are and I just took it and went “phoom” and put about 3 slugs right in front of him. I said, “you tell him, I’ll put them right in his head the next time if you don’t take that damn thing off of me” because they are superstitious, those natives are, they do a “voodoo” on ya and they say, they can kill a guy, one of the tribesmen, just by doing that and I guess they can. I don’t know how they did it, but he took it right off real quick. 4:39 Interviewer: “Ok, let’s go on to Leyte. Can you tell us about your experiences there?” On Leyte? Interviewer: “Yes”. 2 �I had a lot of them besides shooting the plane down, but when we first went in there we had sandbags, there were probably 100 in a bundle and we had a pile of them almost as high as this room, bundles. Interviewer: “I’m sorry, for the viewers, they won’t be able to see how big this room is, is there a feet measurement that you could use?” I would say it’s a good 20-30 feet tall and maybe 30 feet wide, in bundles for replacement, gun replacements and whatnot. These natives, they would come up, Filipinos come up and they knew I had charge of them too and they would ask me for one, a sandbag and I said, “no, I can’t give them away”, “you are de one” they would say, “you are de one”, well, I started giving them out you know and pretty soon they were all gone and he had made a suit out of them and dyed it white and you would think it came right out of a department store. 6:07 They didn’t have any clothes or nothing so, they made their own clothes out of these bags. They did a good job and they were good bags too, they weren’t no cheap bags, sandbags, and when we were leaving the Philippines, old General Gill said to me, “ say, by the way, where did you move all those sandbags?” I said, “uh, oh, I don’t know General, they’re someplace around here”. You know, he was pulling my chain, he could see the natives all had clothes. 6:45 It was interesting there. I felt sorry for the poor buggers that had nothing, in fact, Dave Ramotos, he showed me a lot of things about the Philippines; he sort of hung around by me and showed me things because I didn’t know a lot of stuff. 7:13 There was a main street there and a big house on stilts, they all had stilts under them and he said, “Jack, I’d like to—I wish I had some money, I’d like to buy that house” and I said, “how much is it?” and he said, “$15.00” and I said, “I’ll buy it” and I bought it for him. He couldn’t get— 3 �the whole tribe came over and had a chicken dinner for me. We sat there and they had coconuts and they cut them in half and put water in there and that’s what their drinking cups were. 7:51 I imagine their whole—uncles and aunts and everybody was living in that thing then. It was well built; it had a nice roof on it and everything. I always figured I owned and still own a home in the Philippines. It’s probably all down by now. Interviewer: “The Japanese resistance, the closer you got to the Philippines, what was it like? Were they tougher and stronger?” They were always tough. They were mean “son of a guns”. When I was in Australia, I talked to some Aussies, British people came in, escaped there and said that in Singapore they bayoneted pregnant women, with their bayonets, just rip them right open. They were mean bastards. Bataan, they bayoneted our guys, they called it the Bataan death march and it was something, you can’t describe it, you never—I could never tell you the horrors we went through. 9:05 There is no way you could tell anybody. I give you a little bit, but you have to see it, it would make you sick, make you sick. Interviewer: “Now are you a non commissioned officer? What responsibilities did you have and the other—the privates, did they look up to you? What kind of a relationship did you have with the privates?” Well, years ago, when I first joined the guard, they had a Major McNaughton who use’ to be the principal of Ottawa Hills High School and he was in the guards and he was in the first war. He didn’t go overseas with us, but he said, “I want you to remember something. Always take care of your men, make sure they got a place—something to eat and a place to sleep” and I never forgot that. I don’t know why he told me that, at the time I thought, “why is he telling me that, I’m just an old private you know”. 10:06 It 4 �ended up that I got to be the regimental Sergeant Major, Staff Sergeant and I had—my one buddy was General Snipke, he was a Major at that time and he ended up a 3 star General and after the war he wanted me to come back and join the guards, stay with the guards and I said, “no, I’ve had it up to here” and he said, “Jack, I’ll give you a commission right now as a Major and you’ll go right up the line with me” and I said, “thank you, but I’ve had enough of it”. 10:46 He stayed in and we stayed good friends, always friends and he got to be a Lieutenant General and he got sick later on so I made sure he was taken care of and one time I had him up to the hospital there, he had to go in for some operation, and I stayed with him and we were on the elevator and the nurse said—he always told me, “if you would have stayed with me, you would be a General” and I said, “I know that, yeah” and this nurse said to him, “I understand you’re some kind of a General, what kind of a General are you?” 11:31 He said, “I’m a 3 Star General, that’s a Lieutenant General” and I’m just standing there and she said, “what are you?” I thought, she didn’t know me, I said, “I’m a 4” and he started cackling and laughing and he never said a damn word you know. He was a nice guy and I buried him too. I buried a lot of my buddies, in fact, most of them. Interviewer: “Let’s go back to before the war, before you joined the National Guard. What was your life like?” Before I joined the guards? Well, I was a student. I went to school. The depression, we were coming out of the depression and there were no jobs and there just wasn’t a job. If you could make a dollar, you could make a dollar, so I joined the guards. Interviewer: “Would you like to say anything more about Leyte? Do you have anything else you would like to share? 12:56 Was there any urban fighting? Did it switch at all? 5 �We saw a documentary where they were doing a lot of building fighting instead of jungle fighting. Did you guys have that at all, or no?” I didn’t, no. No, ours was all jungle. Interviewer: “How did you feel about the men who came in to bolster the ranks, the replacements?” Replacements? They weren’t trained. You mention that and I had a chance to get 10 extra guys and so I went down to where the landing was and I picked up the 10 guys and one was a Sergeant and I thought, “boy oh boy, I got a guy who knows something” and he had been over in Europe and had been in the battle and got wounded and then they shipped him back to our outfit, but the other guys, they were young guys and one of them had glasses that were as thick as the bottom of a beer bottle and I looked at him and said, “Jesus that’s—are they getting short over there in the United States?”. 14:27 Anyway, I said, “were going up to the front now and you guys haven’t been in it and watch your step. When I tell you to duck, duck.” And so we went up and all of the sudden we got hell—it was the wrong time and the Japs were making a counter attack and I said, “duck guys” and this one Sergeant, I thought would take a lot of responsibility off of me, went bananas. 15:03 He went absolutely bananas. He started foaming at the mouth, he went right out of his tree. He hollered for a medic and I said, “give him a shot of morphine”, he knew what to do, he gave him a shot and it took 3 guys to hold him down. I said, “give him another one”, so the medic gave him another one. 15:19 I said, “take him back home, take him back to the landing”, so I sent him back, he was—he went—when it happens, it happens, that’s all. 6 �Interviewer: “Did you ever notice that in yourself or any of your men? The post traumatic stress of it all?” We always had stress, yeah, but we didn’t have that word for it. We just—you were scared, your damn right you were scared and anybody who says he wasn’t scared is a liar or wasn’t there. You’re scared all the time and if your not there is something wrong because you can’t describe it especially if one of your buddies gets killed, you wonder why in the hell you didn’t get it. When I left the Philippines I was going down to get that liberty ship and I got down by the beach and there’s the damn Jap Zeros strafing and they had some bomb craters, 2 or 3 of them there and I jumped in one and this other Sergeant by the name of Borgman, he jumped in the other one and he got killed right there. 16:31 I came up and I guess that’s the way the odds are I guess. You always think, “is this the time that I’m going to get it though”. You never know. I’m still kickin’. I still think I got that angel with me. Interviewer: “How many medals did you have by that time?” I had 29 all together. You know the best one I got though? I’ll tell you the best one I got, it’s from that tribe I was telling you about in New Guinea. Frank’s son is a banker now and he came to the United States and came to Grand Rapids and my son-in-law is a banker and he was getting homesick so my son-in-law said, “I’ll fix you up with a guy that knows your country”, so I got hold of him, he got hold of me and I took him down to the vet club and he was so happy to see me, that I knew his country and that I knew especially his dad and anyway, he went back home and later on I got a nice set of cuff links. 17:57 Those cuff links cost more than that whole tribe will ever make in 10 years, 7 �I know that, it’s a Bird of Paradise, their national emblem. I got them mounted too. They all remembered me. Interviewer: “When you got back to the states did you have problems with memories? Did you have trouble adjusting?” No, I had trouble staying out of the hospital. I ended up in the Fort Wayne Hospital, ya Fort Wayne in Detroit. They hauled me in there in the winter and the ambulance came to get me—cold, I’m from the southern hot weather and they hauled me in there with no heat in the damn ambulance and it ended up my 30 day furlough ended up 60 days. 18:56 So, I had to report back to Fort Sheridan and the Colonel said, ”Hill, you got a reservation on the train, the Chief, this afternoon, you got a compartment, General Gill wants you—you got a ship you gotta catch in San Francisco and he wants you on that”, this was when we were getting ready to join the—getting ready for the Japan invasion see and I said, “ok, I’m ready” so, the trains, people were standing up and I get a compartment. 19:39 So, I leave the door open and I didn’t care if people come in and sit down, that was all right, but I got as far—I remember getting to Denver and that’s the last I remember. 19:51 I had malaria bad and I ended up in Camp Stoneman in California, I don’t know how I got there, I don’t know who took me off the train or if the army came and got me or what not. When I woke up the doctor was working on me and I said, “I gotta catch a ship out here” and he said, “that ships gone” and I said, “boy oh boy, I’m going to be in trouble” and he said, “no you aren’t going to be in trouble, I’m discharging you” and I said, “you can’t do that” and he said, “I’ve already done it”. 20:28 About 3 or 4 days later, I’m headed back home on the same train and that’s how I got out. Interviewer: “so, how did you feel about the nuclear bomb drop on Japan?” 8 �Harry Truman saved our lives. All of us. They wouldn’t have gave up, those people were brain washed, just like right now over there. They had little kids fighting against us and he dropped the bomb and it saved me and saved a lot of guys too. 21:17 It saved a lot of people in Japan too. That was a bad one. You’re never going to change it. That’s one thing, we all bitched about MacArthur, but look what he did for Japan. The people forget that, some of the soldiers forget that, but he only had what he had to work with and guys forget that and we were the guys that he had to work with and we weren’t very damn good either. 21:47 A lot of guys they hated MacArthur and I did too at times, but then you start looking at the record of what he had to do with and I think he did a hell of a good job. He saved Australia and he saved Japan. Interviewer: “After you got home, did you continue to have memories about the war?” I still have them. Interviewer: “Can you talk about that just a little bit?” You have dreams; I have dreams a lot about it, about guys getting killed. There not good ones, there bad ones. You wake up and you’re still sweating and that’s after 60 some years, but you never forget that, it’s like a photograph back there, like a camera, you probably do too, you can think of things back. Maybe you’re too young yet. They’re not good ones, I shouldn’t say that, there are a lot of good ones, I think of a lot of the good times we had too, with the guys, you know. I’m very fortunate, I’m very fortunate, I met more people in my lifetime than anybody and that’s a fact. I’m privileged. 23:33 I don’t know what else to tell you. Interviewer: “I think that was perfect right there. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hill, Jack (Interview transcript and video, 2 of 2), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hill, Jack Description An account of the resource Jack Hill joined the Michigan National Guard before World War II and served in the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd Division, throughout the war. He fought in every major action that his unit was involved in on New Guinea, Morotai and Leyte, and provides detailed descriptions of combat and army life at the time. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-01 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HillJ2 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3b9613089dd5c824d173576da8e9a26.jpg c67fd9a701e3295e273ccb0fa450ac11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HillegondsPaul Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1994 Title A name given to the resource Hillegonds, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Hillegonds, Board of Trustees 1997-2001 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1994s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b971084849adb5742dcf53da72f90baf.pdf a0e30cddef0ad61227a2aebea666ee66 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Lemuel Serrell Hillman (Dorothy Woodruff) Interviewed on January 29, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #47 (1:06:24) Biographical Information Mrs. Hillman was born Dorothy Woodruff in Auburn, N.Y., 13 January 1887, the daughter of Caroline Porter Beardsley and John Herman Woodruff. She married Lemuel Serrell Hillman on 3 July 1917 in Auburn. She died 13 May 1979 at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village in Grand Rapids. Lemuel Serrell Hillman was born 28 August 1886 at Mt. Vernon, Oneida County, New York. He was the son of William Hillman and Emma Louise Bill. Lemuel was killed 21 February 1930 when an automobile struck him and Mrs. Hillman while they were walking along East Fulton Street in Grand Rapids. The Hillmans had two daughters, Caroline and Hermione, and two sons, Serrell and Douglas. The Hillman‟s home was 330 East Fulton Street from 1919 to 1943. ___________ Interviewer: This is the afternoon of January 29, 1975 I am at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village. I am calling on Mrs. Lemuel Serrell Hillman, who although not a native of Grand Rapids has spent much of her life here, and reared her children here. Mrs. Hillman has recently returned to live in Grand Rapids, and her memory goes back a good many years. Mrs. Hillman, I believe you were born in and brought up near Auburn (New York). Dorothy: Auburn New York, which is a small city, of about thirty-six thousand people. It was a very highly sophisticated and rather wealthy community of old families who really, many of them lived in the grand manner. We always sort of thought of Auburn as sort of, not unlike Long Island, social life. I belong to a very large family, and after I graduated from college and had lived abroad for a year, came home and one of my dearest friends had married Monroe Hubbard, who had been in the high school with us and was a very brilliant young man. And he had gone to Colgate College where he had a very distinguished career, very extremely popular, attractive young man, too. And through him, I met my future husband. I came out to Grand Rapids to visit Betty Gates Hubbard, who had married Monroe Hubbard by this time, and with my dear friend Rosamond Underwood, we were going to (going to) take a great adventure and come west to Grand Rapids to visit Betty, and see what life was like in a place, which we could hardly imagine. Interviewer: Was that before the First World War? �2 Dorothy: Oh no, this was in, yes, of course, it was before the First World War. That must have been in nineteen sixteen, no, January nineteen seventeen that we came out here. Interviewer: Your class was oh-eight at Smith, was it not? Dorothy: No, it was nineteen nine. Interviewer: I‟m sorry, I‟m off a year. Dorothy: Anyway, we came out here to visit and they were very attractive, and they had made great many friends here. Well, we were absolutely stunned by Grand Rapids, we‟d thought, you know, I don‟t know it was my family thought there‟d be an Indian behind every tree. And that it was a very primitive kind of place, and I‟d had a cousin who‟d been out here once and she said, “You know they have wooden sidewalks”. We were prepared for almost anything except what we found. Well, we fell in love with Grand Rapids. These young friends of ours had an apartment upstairs in a house on Paris Avenue. And they‟d made a great many friends, and so they, everybody was what I considered at that time true Western hospitality, entertained us royally all the time. We met a great many people, went to a lot of parties, and had a wonderful time. Now, two rather elderly people, at least I thought they were elderly at that time I‟m sure they weren‟t, Mr. and Mrs. [Frederick] Tinkham, lived across the street [315 Paris] from Betty and Monroe on Paris Avenue, and they‟d become very much interested in them. So they gave a party for us. And we went there, we went Sunday night for supper, and Monroe of course, Monroe was very anxious to have us meet his college roommate whom he had induced to come out to Grand Rapids. And Lem was in a brokerage house working at that time. Oh, what is the name of it? It was in the Old Trust Company. Do you remember what it was? Interviewer: Not offhand. Dorothy: Well, the Grand Rapids, well, I guess it was the Grand Rapids Trust Company or something. Interviewer: Was it in the old Grand Rapids Trust Company? Dorothy: No, it was the regular Grand Rapids Trust Company, now is that what it is, oh no it just blew up. Interviewer: That was the Michigan National Bank. Dorothy: No, well I forget what the name of it was, anyway. Interviewer: You don‟t know which building? Dorothy: Well, it was on Ottawa, and it was in one of the big buildings there. Interviewer: Was it in the Michigan Trust Building? �3 Dorothy: Yes, I guess so, but it probably wasn‟t the Michigan Trust. I think it was the Grand Rapids Trust. Who was the man who owned the Morton Hotel and all that? Interviewer: Mr. Brewer, I think. Dorothy: Yes, well it wasn‟t Mr. Brewer, maybe Mr. Brewer was the president, he might have been, well anyway, so that night, that was when I met Lem Hillman, and we had a delightful evening and I saw a good deal of him, while we were there. Interviewer: Where did Mr. Hillman come from? Dorothy: Well, he came from New York, from outside New York, and he had gone to Prep School in Hamilton, New York, where Colgate University is. Went there for two years, and then he went four years to college, and he really has a spectacular career. He was not very tall and somewhat slight, but extremely muscular, and beautifully coordinated, he was a natural athletic, he did everything well. And he was a superb tennis player, and he was manager of the baseball team, and so on, and also he was captain of the basketball team, although now we think of basketball players as being over six feet, he was so fast on his feet and such a sure shot that he was really a spectacular player. Well, anyway, aside from all that, he was a very, fine student, and graduated Phi Beta Kappa from college. And he‟d gone into the insurance business, [correction] rubber business with his father and in Philadelphia, but his mother died very suddenly and he was so unhappy. He needed a complete change so he, that‟s why he came out and joined Monroe. Well, he didn‟t stay in that brokerage firm very long, and he didn‟t like it. And he went to work with Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles where Monroe was and became a partner in the brokerage house. Well, anyway we were not married until, let me see, June, nineteen seventeen, because I went out to Colorado, the wilds of Colorado to teach school with Rosamond, and we stayed there nearly a year. So then when we came, the war had started, the First World War, when we came home and so Lem enlisted and we were married that June. And Rosamond had become engaged to a young man she met out in Colorado and he, they wouldn‟t enlist him because he was a head of a coalmine out there and they thought he was needed there. But anyway, she was married on the thirtieth of June and I was married on the third of July, and we were in each other‟s wedding, I was her maid of honor and she was my matron of honor, and all our friends came from far and wide. We had a house full of all our old college friends, everybody came. Interviewer: This would be back in Auburn? Dorothy: …in Auburn, this was very gay affair, sort of a last of the old days of that sort. Well, so then we, Lem went right into service and we went, during the war, we lived around in various places. He was never given any, he joined the Navy and he was never given active service much to his disgust, but we lived in Newport, and in Woods Hole, and back to Newport, I think, then finally we came out to Grand Rapids to live in March of nineteen nineteen. And by that time my eldest child had been born, my son named for his father Lemuel Serrell Hillman Jr. And we �4 stayed with Miss Daniels for a while until we could find a place to live. Well, both of us having come from the east, and liking old houses, there was almost nothing to buy, nothing to rent. This was just after the war, there hadn‟t been any building at all; we couldn‟t find a thing. We finally bought an old tumbled down house on the corner of Prospect and Fulton. Well, we were young and not knowing much about it, we spent far too much money fixing up that house, but it really was lovely when it was done, and we lived there for a good many years. Well, by that time…. Interviewer: Let me back up for a minute? Dorothy: I was starting to tell you what I thought about Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Well, I want you to talk about a little about Miss Daniels, because…. Dorothy: Oh, I will tell you about… Interviewer: Could you work that in …. Dorothy: Well, I am going to tell you about Miss Daniels,, my knowledge of early Grand Rapids was gained from Miss Daniels, oh I wish she were here and could tell you the stories she used to tell me. She was born in about eighteen seventy eight, I think, She was a very brilliant woman who graduated from Vassar College. And her father had been superintendent of schools here for many years. Well, of course in those days school teachers were, well, I don‟t think he was paid much, I don‟t believe he earned as much as twenty-five hundred dollars a year probably not, but anyway, he had bought land on Fulton Street and I don‟t know if there was a house on that land when they bought it, probably not, but anyway he largely built that house himself. He had carpenters, whether he had a contractor I don‟t know. But he did a great deal of the building himself and it really a large and lovely house. And especially, they added to it and fixed it up through the years. Well, Miss Daniels had one brother who was older than she. And he didn‟t, when I came to Grand Rapids he had just come back to Grand Rapids to live, he was separated from his wife. And his wife and their children were living out in California, and he came to live with his sister. He was a very extremely, shy, retiring man with a magnificent brain, but it was so sad, he was so shy, he could hardly talk in public at all. And, I think very few people realized what a brilliant man he was. But she certainly was, had a marvelous brain. Well, she told that when she was born in that house that he had built, she said when she was a child one of her chief interests were standing in the front window just before noon, when the train from New York had come into Grand Rapids, and was bringing another load of Dutch immigrants. She said she was absolutely fascinated to watch them. The women went clumping up the street by the house, in their wooden sandals and their pretty white caps with the silver buttons over their ears; and then, the men with their strange looking pantaloons and odd clothes. Well, she was fascinated. Well, that evidently went on for a good many years as the furniture industry expanded in Grand Rapids and needed more and more skilled workman, they imported them from Holland. So that‟s why we became known as such a “Dutch City”, we certainly, we couldn‟t have done better, they have been marvelous citizens, I consider. Of course, the Anglo-Saxons have always had a superior �5 complex, I think, but nevertheless, we, Grand Rapids, has every reason to be proud of these Dutch people to be sure. We think, many of us that they are narrow minded in their religious ideas, but they were very devout people; and that certainly makes wonderful citizens. They owned their own houses very quickly, they kept them up beautifully; they had gardens, flowers. And although even long after I was trying to raise money for various projects, it was awfully difficult to get a nickel out of the Dutch people, because they tithed everything they had, they were very devout church people. And by giving ten percent of their income to the church, you couldn‟t unless they were very rich and many of them became very rich, you couldn‟t expect them to do very much. But I deeply resent any slurs on Grand Rapids as a Dutch community. They do have a great many Dutch people here, Dutch descent, and we‟re very proud of them and we‟re lucky to have them I think. Well, anyway I‟d like to tell you why we bought this old house on Fulton Street. I think a lot of people thought we were crazy, that we should have gone farther out in a newer residential section, but we didn‟t like any of the houses. I tell you we were very conservative, because we both come from regions of old houses, early American types of houses; and that‟s what we wanted, and what we had built as best as we could with the material we started with. But Fulton Street was a beautiful street. It was very wide, of course, much wider than it is now …. and both sides were lined with magnificent elms. Oh, they were gorgeous and they were old and you know when you walked up to Fulton Street from where we lived, from say Lafayette was a steep hill and on an icy day in the winter, and I have to tell you that more than once I had to get down and go up on my hands and knees. One reason was because the roots of these big elms went over into the sidewalks and buckled the sidewalks. Anyway it was a risk to life and limb in bad weather but, oh, it was beautiful. The houses were set back and they were well kept and they were charming. Now there were some old houses across from us, but kitty corner from us on Prospect was the so called mansion built by the founder of the Blodgett fortune here, old Mr. D.A. Blodgett, well I must say we thought it was pretty ugly. It was very Victorian of the period, large stone building, rather ornate, certainly we didn‟t think it was beautiful, but never the less, it was a very substantial and handsome house of its period. Then up next the street, was the, what was the White that built that house? Interviewer: T. Stewart White. Dorothy: Yes, T. Stewart White had built a handsome house. Now that was not of the Victorian type that was fussy, that we disliked so much, this was really a beautiful house. It was decidedly English, was a copy of, in fact, some special house, as I understand, in England that they had seen. Very handsome house, and then on beyond set way back with long wide lawns down to the sidewalks in front was a house that… oh, dear what was Edith Hall‟s mother‟s name? Do you remember? �6 Interviewer: Chase. Dorothy: What? Interviewer: Mrs. Chase. Dorothy: Mr. and Mrs. Chase lived there and next to them, Mr. and Mrs. Shanahan lived. So we knew all these people and they were all proud of their houses and they looked very well., But up the, down below us toward the business section, then next door to us was Mr. Hughart‟s house which was a lovely old house, one of the oldest houses in Grand Rapids, and very handsome and then on beyond that was the large stone house which is now the Women‟s City Club. And next to that, of course, was the present Art Gallery which was a handsome colonial house with columns in that period. So you can see it was a very, substantial, handsome neighborhood and really lovely too with those beautiful trees. Well, the amazing thing to me when I came here to live. I had already seen Grand Rapids and I knew what a lovely city it was, but what I did not know was that it was such a highly cultivated city. It offered such a rich intellectual fare. And I just hope that some of these modern critics about Jerry Ford‟s Grand Rapids could really know what I am talking about. For instance, I lived in France for a year and was very much interested of course, in French, well there was a very active Alliance Françoise here at that period and Mrs. Hughes who had lived in France a large part of her life, taught French and was very active in that. She lived with a cousin Mrs…. Who was that that lived with Mrs. Hughes? Well, I have forgotten her name, but, they had a perfectly beautiful house on up Fulton Street, on beyond where I left off describing the houses, what? Interviewer: Was it Mrs. Swift? Dorothy: Yes, Mrs. Swift, why Lee, you are wonderful. Mrs. Swift and Mrs. Hughes and they lived in a very grand and formal way, I want to tell you. They had a butler and several maids, to be entertained there was really a very sophisticated, elegant experience. Then next to them were Mr. and Mrs. Hollister. Mr. Hollister was president of the Old Kent Bank, a very charming attractive man. Mrs. Hollister I can only describe as a dynamo. I was devoted to her, and she was a remarkable woman with great intelligence, but she was also very determined, very sure she was right and a good many people were not wildly enthusiastic about her, to put it mildly, although they felt indebted to her. We were all indebted to her, she was, had quite a little money, she came from an old family in Massachusetts, let me see, just below Northampton. What is the name of that town? Well, her father was the original maker of thread in this country. She really must have inherited a fortune and also, she was a very accomplished musician. Well, she was very generous and she often subsidized speakers to come here for various things. There was also an extremely active Woman‟s University Club, and they had a large membership. They had plays and lectures and oh, it was a very active club which gave great stimulus to Grand Rapids entertainment and interest. Mr. and Mrs. Hollister had lost a son in the [First] World War in France, so their devotion to France was very great. And Mrs. Hollister was much interested in �7 providing speakers for the Alliance and boosting it and always entertaining them whenever they needed a house, at her house. She always was very generous with her house about everything, very hospitable….remarkable woman. And we had another remarkable woman in Grand Rapids at that period, and that was Mrs. John W. Blodgett. She was a fellow member of the same class as Mrs. Hollister at Vassar. Mrs. Blodgett came before she was married to visit Mrs. Hollister, who was a bride at that time, and that is where she met Mr. Blodgett, so then she came to Grand Rapids to live. She too, was an intellectual. And very much was interested in doing everything she could to foster not only, the intellectual life of Grand Rapids, but the social work life. The family had founded a children‟s home here, the D.A. Blodgett Home for Children. They were very much interested in that and my husband had been treasurer of that home for years and I was put right on the board as members too. We were very much interested in that. Well, Mrs. Blodgett was interested in all worthwhile things. And of course, they had also given Blodgett Hospital in memory of Mr. D.A. Blodgett. So there was a great deal of interest here, by prominent people in elevating the intellectual and cultural life of Grand Rapids. You know, it was jokingly often called the Boston of the Midwest. I hated it that Grand Rapids was called the middle west, the middle west was such a dreadful term in Auburn where I came from, it was sort of the embodiment of hayseed, and Grand Rapids was such a contrast to that, I just had a fit if anybody called it the middle west, of course, it really isn‟t. We definitely aren‟t eastern either even if we are on Eastern Time. Well, anyway that was the Grand Rapids that I knew. And my husband was very active in everything worthwhile in Grand Rapids. And a great leader in every kind of endeavor, social work, church work, intellectual, everything that was going on to better the town and you know it was expected. In a way, it was everybody at that period who had had a good education who had the advantage of going to college was expected to offer a tribute to that education by giving back in service. And they certainly did in those days, and they made Grand Rapids the city that it became. Of course the furniture industry grew like mad and prospered, Grand Rapids became a very rich city and during this period my husband left Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles and went to the Old Kent Bank where he headed their bond department and later became the vice president and their head of investment department. Well, I guess that‟s about enough, Lee? Interviewer: I would like to talk a little more going into the depression perhaps a little bit and talk about your children. Dorothy: About what? Interviewer: Your children, that would be quite interesting, and what happened to you after your husband‟s death; and the Depression and your work with the Red Cross. I think that would be of interest. Dorothy: Of course, this is personal history. We had four children, two sons and two daughters and my husband was killed in an accident, he was run over by an automobile. One night we were, we had had a perfectly terrible winter with very, very deep snow almost impossible to get �8 through the streets in a car and we had a terrible winter very cold. This was late in February, we‟d suddenly had the first sun bright sunny and the snow was thawing. We were going out way Fulton Street as it was then for dinner with Dr. and Mrs. Hodgen. And I said let‟s walk. So we did walk, and that of course was a tragic mistake because we were walking on a country road and on the right side of the road and everything, and we were run into and run down by a drunken man driving, recklessly. My husband pushed me and I landed out in the field. I jumped up unhurt, but he was killed. It was a most awful terrible thing and I, really Grand Rapids as a city was really broken hearted at his loss, because he had the kind of personality that everybody loved. Well, it was necessary in order to save my reason and try to earn a little money to do a little something. Well, I went into the Red Cross, which I must say I didn‟t know anything about either at that time but I was the Executive Director of the Red Cross. Interviewer: About what year would that have been, Mrs. Hillman? Dorothy: That was, well let‟s see Lem died in nineteen thirty, and oh about nineteen thirty-four I guess. My youngest child, my daughter was only three years old, at the time of my husband‟s death; it‟s always been grief to me that she couldn‟t remember him. But the children went to the Fountain Street School, which is an excellent school, such good teachers. And then on to Central High School which certainly there were any number of very remarkable fine teachers. Miss Daniels was the assistant principal, all through these years. Just think how able she was but being a woman she could never be principal. Well, that was one of the sad things of that period. But anyway Serrell went to Deerfield Academy after two years in the high school. I felt that he needed to be under the influence and teaching of men; they would give him something that we could not give him here or at home. I think we probably made a mistake. He was the only person I ever heard of that wasn‟t happy at Deerfield. He didn‟t like it; he didn‟t like anything about it. He was supposed to stay for two years. Well, I went to see him in the middle of the winter, talked to Mr. Boyden who was such a distinguished educator. I said Mr. Boyden, Serrell isn‟t happy here and he wants to finish in one year. Mr. Boyden said we have never had anybody do that, and I said will you let him try it and see if he can do it? And then I said I don‟t know where he should go to college? Of course he is living in the memory of his father whom he adored and he feels he ought to go to Colgate. But I cannot believe that the Colgate is the place for him, at that period the Colgate was dedicated to sports and if there was anyone that was not a sport, it was Serrell. He was the exact opposite of his father in that way. Well, it was a disaster because anyway. So I said to Mr. Boyden what shall I do, where should I send Serrell? Oh, he said, “I think you should send him to Colgate.”Well, that was very poor advice; I never really forgave him for that. Then Serrell only stayed six months at Colgate, he simply hated it. And I went to see him there and he said, “I am coming home.” And I said “You‟re coming home? What are you going to do?” No this was at Deerfield, no that was right. No, he got into Colgate from Deerfield and he said he was coming home. I said, “You wanted to go to Harvard how are you going to get into Harvard? You‟ll lose all your credits.” “No,” he said, “I am going to tutor, I am going back to the high school.” Well, I said, “If you know what you are doing and that‟s what you want.” �9 Well he did finish the two years in one, much to Mr. Boyden‟s astonishment, he got into Colgate and that was another disaster, so then he went to Harvard. He was accepted at Harvard, oh, I will never forget that suspense. He use to run down to the corner, usually in his bathrobe and slippers and couldn‟t wait for the postman. And the postman was so excited waiting for that letter from Cambridge. It was very funny, he would see Serrell running down the street, he would call out to him, no, it hasn‟t come, so he would have to come back and wait for another day. Well, it finally did come. And Caroline and Hermione, my daughter usually called Hermi both graduated from the high school. They were both very good students and they both went on to Smith, much to my delight. Douglas was very blithe about his studies and wasn‟t very interested. And I must say, I didn‟t think he was doing well at all. And I thought he needed to get away from home. He needed discipline I thought, so I sent him to Exeter. Well, he liked it well enough but he didn‟t do well, particularly and I decided that was not a success. I didn‟t know what to do about that so when I went up in June to bring him home, I said, “Now Douglas what are you going to do next year?” He said, “Well I am not going back to Exeter.” I knew very well they probably wouldn‟t take him. “Well, what are you going to do?” And he said, “Oh, I am going back to the high school.” “How, why you have lost a whole year, how are you going to do that? I don‟t know how many credits you will get.” “Oh, I‟m going to tutor.” I said, “Will you be able to catch up to your class?” He said, “Why certainly.” To my amazement he did. He tutored, he caught up with his class, and his class graduated well. His class got high honors at the University of Michigan where they all went, „because they were so well prepared. So then, he went on, went on to university and graduated from there in about a year and a half. The second war came, the Second World War. So he enlisted right away in the Air Corps and he was a pilot, he was just under twenty-one in the period, I guess he wasn‟t twenty-one yet. Well later on he became a pilot of a big B-24 and saw a lot of action. His plane was even shot down in Bulgaria. They were bombing Went(?)Polesti where they had the oil fields to bomb and they were hit and so his plane was quite badly damaged. So Douglas gave the order if anybody wanted to get out, they better do it right away quickly. Well, they all jumped but Douglas and they all got out there and in the meantime the Air Corps had sent a couple of planes to his aid. And they boxed around this injured plane and he was able to get it back to Bari on the Mediterranean coast still going. And so when he got over the airfield there, and when he looked down the whole place was alive with people and ambulances and all kinds of things, so he turned the plane out to sea and jumped. And we he got out he was very, very light and when he got out he didn‟t go down the way he should have. He went to the right and to the left and he thought he was never going to go down. And to his perfect horror he saw his plane had turned around and was coming right at him, he thought he was going to be cut right in two by the plane. Well he couldn‟t steer this chute he was on, but it missed him fortunately, and eventually he got down completely unharmed. And you know, I would like to tell you kind of an interesting story in connection with that. At the last year of the war I left the Red Cross here because I thought I had nothing new to offer. I was very tired I suppose. We were an enormous organization by that time and I felt they needed new ideas and literally I didn‟t have any, so I decided to go down to Washington and work there for awhile with �10 the national organization. The national organization gave me a job and I had a little apartment in Alexandria. And one Sunday morning a knock came to my apartment door and here were two strange young men. They said are you Mrs. Hillman? And I said, yes. Are you Doug Hillman‟s mother? Yes, I am, they said we were members of his crew and we were shot down over Romania and we heard you were here and we thought we would like to come and see you. Well, you can imagine how delighted I was and we became great friends and I saw a great deal of them after that, but they told me this story. They parachuted down and landed in a wheat field and that looked just dandy to them and everything was just fine and they rose up and they found themselves surrounded by a group of soldiers all pointing their guns right at them. They were about to be shot but they finally were able to talk them out of it. I don‟t know how they did it or what language they spoke but they were taken prisoners instead and they had to stay there for the duration of the war. And they said they would have literally starved to death if it hadn‟t been for the Red Cross boxes. You can imagine how thankful I was about that. Well, anyway that‟s the end of that story. Interviewer: Now we are recording… Dorothy: Now ask me what else… Interviewer: Oh, I was going to ask you a question because…About once a year or so and it happened just a week or two again, I am asked to research old houses for the Annual Heritage House Tour and about two years ago your house which is now Van Clair‟s was put on the tour. And they asked me to find out all I could about it. I had a very difficult time, I was able to trace it back to a very early era, at least around the turn of the century, but I wasn‟t able to go much further than that. It is very hard sometimes for people to get everything out of the safety deposit box; you know the original abstract and so forth. And I hate to bother people, so I went as far as I could. I sort of came up to a blank wall and just had to fill in. I did know certain people that lived in your house, for instance Mrs. Curtis, I know lived there. Dorothy: You know, I never knew any farther back then she could tell me. I don‟t think we ever had any abstract, I don‟t remember seeing one. Interviewer: I‟m convinced the house is quite old. Dorothy: Oh, it was a very old house, there isn‟t any doubt about that and one very well built, and we certainly got into a lot of trouble, terrible expense remaking it. We would have spent far less money if we had started from scratch, but we didn‟t know enough to know that. I don‟t know anything more about it. Interviewer: Well, someday we will have to find somebody to, someday we will find someone who knows; we always do. Dorothy: I don‟t know how you think you will? �11 Interviewer: It is funny how things turn up all the time. Dorothy: Well, I hope you can, that‟ll be very nice. Interviewer: I wanted to ask you about your friends, the friends you had with Mr. Hillman, and friends you knew after he died because I think I know who some of them were and I would like you to comment on some of the people that you saw. I am talking not talking about the old people but, about the younger people of your generation. Dorothy: I can‟t do that, I couldn‟t possibly do that, I‟m sorry but you will have to ask other people what they thought about Lem, he was so unusual. Interviewer: I meant for you to talk about yourself. Dorothy: No, I can‟t do it. I couldn‟t possibly do that. Interviewer: We‟re flexible... Would you like to carry on about your children after the war? Dorothy: I don‟t know why you would be particularly interested in that but I would be glad to do that. Caroline graduated from Smith College and she went out to work on a ranch in New Mexico, and was a tutor to a boy and girl twins, the children of a very rich rancher out not far from Santa Fe. He had a perfectly tremendous ranch, one of the biggest in the country. That was a very interesting experience. She did that for one year, and then she went and taught in a girl‟s boarding school, which was outside of Santa Fe. Then when the war came, why she wanted to go, too. So she went abroad with the Red Cross, she went to Washington and went through the induction period there and stayed overseas for about three years and had a very interesting experience. Then she came home, and of course there wasn‟t any opportunity for her in Grand Rapids at that period. There wasn‟t any opening for a girl really unless perhaps she wanted to teach, but she didn‟t. So she…let‟s see at that period…I guess she was thinking about what she could do. At that time, Serrell was in the Life and Time bureau in Chicago and she went over to Chicago to see him and met George Eccle, whom she later married. He was a very brilliant young man who was the New York Times representative in Chicago and he worked in a little office in the Tribune building with another man, and you know that at the end of three years he died of lung cancer. It was a very sad, tragic thing; I thought it was because they both smoked in this tiny little office. Both those men smoked those cigarettes all day long. Anyway he died of lung cancer and it was a terrible thing. And so then Caroline went to New York. She had been living in Chicago but there was nothing for her there and she went to New York, and there eventually went to work for Time magazine. She was there awhile; then she went to a new magazine which had been recently started and which was American Heritage. She became, I don‟t know, I always thought she was general cook and bottle washer there, she did everything, every kind of editorial work, all kinds of things for them. And eventually some years later, oh four or five years later, she married her present husband Ralph Backlund, who was one of the editors of Horizon. After they were married awhile, he was offered a position in the State �12 Department and they moved to Washington. And he was the assistant in the Cultural Affairs Department of the State Department. Well then anyway, when the new President came in, the head of the department didn‟t like what was going on, didn‟t like what was expected of them and the department and he retired. And the President appointed an Italian as head of the bureau, who had no experience whatsoever, then Ralph left too. And then he went to the Smithsonian, where he is now one of the editors of the Smithsonian Magazine. Caroline in the meantime had taken a librarian‟s degree. One of the things she had done for Horizon was to set up a picture library, which made quite a reputation and she realized she had to know more. So she went at night and took a night course up at Columbia and got her degree in Library Science. So when they moved to Washington she got a job with the National Gallery of Art, where she is the Assistant Director. Hermi, in the meantime graduated from Smith, came home to be with me. She lived with me for about a year and she worked down at the art gallery. I must see that she didn‟t stay there looking after me. I persuaded her to go to New York and see if she could find anything interesting, stimulating, really get a job worthy of her abilities. Well, she got a job on the Gallery of Modern Art, but in the meantime she had seen Dan Wickenden, one of Serrell‟s friends that had come to Grand Rapids during the war. I forgot to tell you, that Serrell was not accepted by the draft because he had asthma and this friend of his, Dan Wickenden who had a pen friendship all through Serrell‟s Harvard career. Dan had written a novel, he was older than Serrell. He graduated from Amherst, and had written a successful novel which Serrell had admired very much, so he wrote to Dan and they became great friends through their correspondence. Dan was turned down by the draft too, because of I forgot, some minor reason. He was very unhappy about that. In the meantime Serrell had been married to DuBarry Campau; she was a reporter on the Press as Serrell was at that period. So they were married and they had been married only a few weeks and the Press told DuBarry they had to have her resignation because they had a regulation not to hire married women. Doesn‟t that sound archaic? Interviewer: Yes Dorothy: Anyway she was one of the stars of that paper, she started a wonderful “Judy Jots it Down” column, which was a very witty columnist and reporter. And so they had to do something about that because this was all they had, they had no money whatsoever. So Serrell wrote around and got a job with the Louisville Courier. And so they left and went down to Louisville. After a few weeks I heard from them from New York. I said, “Well what are you doing in New York?” He said, “We couldn‟t stand it down there, we didn‟t like the south, we just hated it. So we came to New York to look for a job.” I said, “How did you get there?” I knew they really had no money. “Oh,” Serrell said, “we sold our bicycles.” They got themselves to New York, and picked up whatever jobs they could do until they finally both landed newspaper jobs and have been in that position ever since. Interviewer: But Hermi and Dan? �13 Dorothy: Well, anyway Dan came and Serrell said we have to leave Grand Rapids so why don‟t you come and I suppose the press will give you our composite jobs. So he came and sure enough, the Press was glad to have him. So he found a room in the old, what was that old, it‟s torn down lately, the old columned house on Washington Street. Next to where Kate Sears used to live. Interviewer: Oh, the Wanty house. Dorothy: No, no. Interviewer: They put columns on it later, that‟s why I say…. Dorothy: Well, anyway in the old house with columns. He had most of his meals at our house. Hermi was only fifteen at that stage and she surely lost her heart to Dan and never looked at another soul. So finally, suddenly he realized she was his sun, moon and stars, they were married very quickly because I wanted them to be married, while George was very ill at that time, Caroline‟s husband. And I wanted them to be married, while it was possible. So they had a very quiet little wedding and were married. And Dan was writing novels at that period and they went to Westport, Connecticut to live. After they had three children, Dan decided he needed a regulation job to keep a family going. So he has been an editor in New York ever since. He is with Harcourt Brace and has been for many years as a literary editor. Interviewer: And Douglas stayed home. Dorothy: And Douglas while he was in the service, no while he was studying for his exams and so forth to be a pilot met Sally Jones. Everybody always laughs and say did you make that up? No, he didn‟t make that up. That apparently was love at first sight, so they became engaged and the minute the war was over, why Douglas rushed out to California to marry Sally. And they came back, and he went to the University of Michigan to finish his education and of course they gave him credit for his years in the service. He graduated the University and went on to the Law School. Then he came to Grand Rapids to practice law, where he now is. And that is the saga of my four children. Interviewer: I think that is very interesting, and now I want to go back to your childhood in Auburn. Were both of your parents natives of Auburn? Dorothy: Oh, yes, you could hardly believe, Auburn would seem archaic now. I have made a lot of tapes of my early life there because it is so different from life today. I knew my children and grandchildren would never believe anything about it, written, spoken a good bit into tapes about that early history. Oh, it was one of the most beautiful cities in those days. It too had very wide streets and arching elms that really practically met over the street and many beautiful houses and as I told you, there was a great deal of money there. A lot of it had been inherited and there were some very profitable manufacturing concerns there. And it was a lovely small city. Oh, dear it doesn‟t look like that now at all, the trees; the elms all got the elm‟s disease. The way they did �14 across New York State. New York State is devastated, you can drive along these country roads and they are lined with dead trees. The farmers won‟t pay to have them taken down or can‟t. Why it is the most ghastly thing. You know, when Auburn was denuded of its trees, the houses in my youth that I thought were so beautiful, most of them were of the wrong period and large and handsome, but not beautiful, most of them. Now those generations, those two generations have gone, the young people have left town, most of them. Those old houses have turned into rooming houses, some of them torn down, not the same place at all. But I do want to tell you that my father started a factory in Auburn, when he went there. Let me see, they were married in eighteen….well, about the late seventies [1870‟s] and he started making composition buttons. Well then that went into typewriter keys from one thing to another and then finally into plastics. We celebrated our hundredth anniversary last year, it was eighteen seventy-three when he went into that business and my nephew is now the president of the Auburn Plastics Company, which is the descendant of his great-grandfather‟s concern, which is quite interesting because it is one thing that has survived in Auburn. We had many big plants there. We had the Osborn family who were really. William H. Seward came from Auburn, a most distinguished citizen. The old mansion where he and his wife lived and brought up their family had been owned by his wife‟s father and it was built in eighteen twenty-five as a gorgeous house of that period. It is open to the public now, and if you are ever near there you must go and see it; and it‟s exactly how it was when Lincoln‟s Secretary of State lived there and there are many interesting mementos of his trips to Europe when he was given personal gifts by heads of state. I remember going into that house when I was a child, by the front door was a perfectly enormous carved bear about four feet high with sticking claws out to hang umbrellas on or something. This thing towered over me and I was absolutely terrified of that thing all during my childhood. My grandfather and grandmother Woodruff lived next door and we were in and out of that house a great deal. And in the garden which is still much the way it was, is an old fashioned summer house, and Secretary Seward was sitting in that summer house when he received the news that he was defeated for the Presidency. And it had been won by an utterly unknown greenhorn from the far west called Abraham Lincoln. Interviewer: and Dorothy: laughter…. Dorothy: Well…. Interviewer: You mentioned the Osborn family? Wasn‟t there a member of…? Dorothy: Thomas Osborn became a great leader and expert in prison reform. His father had started out a little manufacturing business of farming implements. Well, they were very prosperous but along came the International Harvester finally and bought them out for several million dollars. So the Osborn family has always been rich; they were rich before and they are very well to do now. And Mr. Osborn sons bought the Auburn Daily Advertiser as it was in those days. Thomas Osborn great grandson is now President of the Auburn Citizen and it is a very excellent paper for that whole community. �15 Interviewer: It seems to me like one of those Osborns married into the S.F.D. Morse family of California. Dorothy: Yes, he did and they‟re now are divorced. Interviewer: I think I knew Dick Osborn. Dorothy: Yes, he did. I had heard that when I was there last year that they had been divorced. All that generation, I guessed, are divorced. I might tell you a little incident about my family, might interest you. Auburn was started in about eighteen eighteen, I guess. And they had a little sawmill there; a little river that ran through the village. It had been an Indian Village and there was an Indian tribe right near there. A Scotsman by the name of John Muir came to Auburn and prospered. He built a perfectly beautiful stone house, a lovely house. Well, when the Muir family died, may be not, my great-grandfather John Porter bought the house. He was a lawyer at that time; he was a member of the law firm from New York, that tried, where they had that famous trial, where Seward made his name, that Negro trial. Well anyway, my great grandfather bought that house. My grandmother and mother Beardsley were born in that house. My grandmother used to tell me very interesting stories about it. The basement had one of those enormous fireplaces of those days, eight feet wide or ten feet, big enough for a tree. Of course the whole place was surrounded with trees. You could go out and get trees and logs any place. So they always kept a fire going in the basement, and they welcomed the Indians. They kept their side door open all night in case the Indians wanted to come in. They always had an enormous pot of coffee hanging over the fire and they kept the fire going. And they would come in and sleep on the floor in their blankets and drink coffee. My grandmother said as a child she used to look out the window and see Indians shuffling by the house and going down the street wrapped in their blankets. And then anyway, after my great grandfather‟s death and his wife‟s death, the John Porters, the house was sold to a Mister John Rice. Later on my oldest brother Carlton married Mary Rice and they were married in the drawing room of that beautiful, beautiful old house, where my grandparents had been married and where my grandmother and my mother had been born, was a very interesting thing. An interlocking of the two families and later on my brother and his wife and children went over to the big house to live and they added on and fixed it up, and it was a beautiful house and still is. One of the Osborn boys, one of the descendants lives there now. He married a girl from Boston and they have six children, I guess they loved that big house. That was quite interesting. By and large, Auburn like every other place in the country is very, very different, these days. There were a great, for instance, a great many Victorians in Auburn. Now a small city of thirty-six thousand you wouldn‟t expect elegance like that quite number like the coachman, the man on the box and livery, a highly sophisticated elegant society. You can see why they thought I was coming out to be thrown to the Indians. Interviewer: Well, you‟ve survived and it has been a delightful afternoon. I appreciate your giving us your time. �16 Dorothy: I had no intention of making any personal remarks, about my family or anything. I am a little upset about that… Interviewer: Well, I think you have a remarkable and interesting family and that your children, immediate family have been born and brought up in Grand Rapids. They have had interesting careers in all instances. Dorothy: Well, they all love Grand Rapids. We all love it, and I‟m so happy to come back here now to live at Porter Hills, it is a wonderful place and I am lucky to be back here. Interviewer: We look forward to many more years of enjoyment. Dorothy: I don‟t know how many more….Anyway, I am very happy here. I have a good many old friends and I love it. Happy to be back in Auburn, I mean in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Grand Rapids, you mean. We will turn it off. INDEX A Alliance Françoise · 6 American Red Cross · 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Art Gallery · 6 Auburn Citizen · 14 Auburn Daily Advertiser · 14 Auburn Plastics Company · 14 B Backlund, Ralph · 11 Blodgett Hospital · 7 Blodgett, Mr. · 7 Blodgett, Mr. D.A. · 5 Blodgett, Mrs. John W. · 7 Boyden, Mr. · 8, 9 Brewer, Mr. · 3 D D.A. Blodgett Home · 7 Daniels, Miss · 4, 8 Deerfield Academy · 8 E Eccle, George · 11 Exeter · 9 F Ford, Jerry · 6 Fountain Street School · 8 G C Grand Rapids Trust Company · 2 Central High School · 8 Chase, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Colgate · 1, 3, 8, 9 H Hall, Edith · 5 Harcourt Brace · 13 Harvard · 8, 12 �17 Hillman, Caroline · 9, 11, 12, 13 Hillman, Douglas · 9, 13 Hillman, Hermi · 9, 12, 13 Hillman, Hermione · 9 Hillman, Lem · 2, 3, 8, 11 Hillman, Serrell · 3, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13 Hodgen, Dr. and Mrs. · 8 Hollister, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Hollister, Mrs. · 6, 7 Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles · 3, 7 Hubbard, Betty & Monroe · 2 Hubbard, Betty Gates · 1 Hubbard, Monroe · 1 Hughes, Mrs. · 6 J Jones, Sally · 13 L Lincoln, Abraham · 14 M Michigan Trust Building · 2 Morse, S.F.D. · 15 Muir, John · 15 P Porter, John · 15 R Rice, John · 15 Rice, Mary · 15 S Seward, Secretary · 14 Seward, William H. · 14 Shanahan, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Smith College · 11 Swift, Mrs. · 6 T Tinkham, Mr. and Mrs. Frederick · 2 U Underwood, Rosamond · 1, 3 University of Michigan · 9, 13 V N Vassar College · 4 New York Times · 11 W O Old Kent Bank · 6, 7 Osborn family · 14 Osborn, Dick · 15 White, T. Stewart · 5 Wickenden, Dan · 12 Woman‟s University Club · 6 Women‟s City Club · 6 Woodruff · 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1519fc7ec75c626f0b76cf4a523a9b46.mp3 524caec1e54c03977ed8bb7067a12556 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_47Hillman Title A name given to the resource Hillman, Dorothy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hillman, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Dorothy Woodruff was born in Auburn, New York on January 13, 1887. She graduated from Smith College in 1909. In 1916 she and fellow Smith alumna Rosamund Underwood traveled to Colorado to teach at the Elkhead School. She married in 1917, and came to Grand Rapids in 1918. In 1936 she became the Executive Secretary of the American Red Cross in Grand Rapids and she served the Red Cross in Washington, D.C. during WWII. The Hillmans had two daughters, Caroline and Hermione, and two sons, Serrell and Douglas. Dorothy died on May 13, 1979. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c5d9036f59080e9f9c1b53214bd939d.mp4 bfc8fd9f15206231f48fe8ed4882fa6c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7bfbf0ce86168ada3906d7c0a9d5bd9.pdf debda57b4a8b34098e96d92e4110bc23 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Barry Hillmer Vietnam War Interview Length: (1:24:48) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Barry Hillmer of Caledonia, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay Barry start off with some background on yourself and to begin with where and when were you born? I was born in Flushing Queens May 3rd, 1946. That's New York. Interviewer: New York City, alright and now did you grow up there or did you move around? Grew up on Long Island, Nassau County, New Hyde Park. Interviewer: Okay. And lived there until I went off to college. (1:00) Interviewer: Okay now what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? My mother was a schoolteacher, elementary school teacher. My dad worked for Bell Telephone in New York City. Interviewer: Okay now was, had he served in the war or was he a civilian? �He was in the second World War in New Guinea in Australia. Interviewer: Okay and what service branch or what was he doing? He was in the Air Force he was a crew chief. Interviewer: Okay, alright I’ve interviewed a fair number of people who were in New Guinea, World War II. Oh, yeah. Interviewer: So I hear that and I always wanna go okay. Alright and as you're, so you're born and okay so ’46, so when do you finish high school? 1964. Interviewer: Okay and then where did you go to college? Lafayette College in eastern Pennsylvania. Interviewer: Alright and what was that school like at that point in time? It was all male, 1700 guys and what motivated me it had a very good educational rating, and it had an ROTC program at one point in high school I thought I might want to make the military a career, I thought about going to West Point and this was a nice alternative. Interviewer: Okay. (2:16) Without making that much of a military commitment. �Interviewer: Alright and of course you were thinking about that, I mean that's the point before Vietnam heated up and we didn't have a lot of people going over there. Well, we did. Interviewer: Well, we had some people, but we didn't have them like we had them later. Well, the- the draft and at the time pretty much you made the assumption that you most likely would be going to Vietnam if you got drafted. Interviewer: Okay. So, I made- made the decision with ROTC, it was the first two years were mandatory, the second two years were voluntary, but I liked- I liked the format, I liked the training that I was getting and decided alright if I have to go in the Army, I want to have some control over my destiny. Interviewer: Right. And ROTC allowed me that. (3:08) Interviewer: Yeah, because in ‘64 we didn't have ground troops. Well, this was, it was ‘68 when I got out. Interviewer: Well, you got out and ‘66 is the point when you make the commitment to do the- the second, next two years. Yes. Interviewer: And by ‘66. �Yeah. Interviewer: The draft was really going. Yes, yeah. Interviewer: So- so there's the, when you initially go in it would have been a possibility there was a draft at the time, but there were, they were not taking huge numbers of people then. Yes. Interviewer: But very quickly it ramps up. Ramped up. Interviewer: During those first two years when you're in college. Yes. Interviewer: At that point. Yes. Interviewer: Alright so while you were in college how much did you learn about what was going on in Vietnam? Quite a bit, we because you were going to class every day and ROTC you had that instruction that was part of the curriculum, regular part of the curriculum. So, you were kept pretty well informed about what was going on and again at the end of the first two years I just came to the conclusion alright if I’m going to Vietnam number one, I want to go as an officer and second of �all if I have some choice about branch or MOS and what area of specialization I was going into then I wanted to be able to do that. ROTC allowed you, they gave you three options: first, second, third choice and fortunately I got my first choice which was intelligence. (4:30) Interviewer: Okay now was this a point when the third choice had to be infantry? No. Interviewer: Okay. No, but as the, if there was a drawback to going in as an intelligence your primary was intelligence 9301 MOS, your secondary was infantry that was required so you had to go through infantry basic. Interviewer: Alright so what did the ROTC program consist of? It was the, you had classroom work and- and then at the end of your junior year you had to go through eight weeks of summer camp which was essentially basic training, eight weeks of basic training. Interviewer: And where did… Infantry. Interviewer: Where did you do that? Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania. Interviewer: Okay and what was that like? �That was- that was brutal, that was pushing the limits, I mean that was going through basic training and- and so here you are you're giving your summer up and eight weeks they pushed you to the limits. I mean you were in barracks, you were, at that point we weren't officers we- we hadn't been commissioned and we had a staff sergeant that was our platoon, oversaw the platoon and so you were Grunt and you were running around there and- and eight weeks of some pretty intense infantry training. Interviewer: So, what were they actually teaching you? Everything. Interviewer: What’s the curriculum? (5:57) Every aspect of what they- they'd run you through with basic training as an inventory, infantryman. Interviewer: Okay what I’m getting at is most people today don't go in the service and don't even know what that involves, so just day to day there what are you doing? Well every, they'd have these different segments so you'd have a marksman- marksmanship segment, working with rifles, you did mortars, you did all weaponry, you did map reading orientation, there was a week of hand-to-hand combat, I mean and each one was a segment so it might be a week or two depending upon the how much was required. Interviewer: Was there a lot of close order drill? Yes. (6:47) Interviewer: Okay now had you learned some of that already from… �Yes. Interviewer: ROTC? Yes, yes, we did that every day. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright and then what did they do when people messed up? In, at Indiantown Gap? Interviewer: Yeah. Well, I actually, we in our barracks we had four squads it was a platoon- platoon barracks four squads so you had ten men. Every one of us made it through that. So, there weren't many thatthat did not, I think under those circumstances you had already committed, you went through the freshman and sophomore year, you had completed your junior year and it was then that you went to summer camp, you were pretty dedicated. Interviewer: Yeah. And committed to Military. Interviewer: So nobody's washing out? Not really. Interviewer: But then I guess but you would do things wrong. �Yeah. Interviewer: On occasions. Yeah. Interviewer: And normally I guess in regular basic training there's an awful lot of discipline and punishment and stuff if people screw up in one way or another. Push-ups. (7:47) Interviewer: Okay. I was doing 100/ 150 push-ups a day, that was the way you got through it. I- I mean you just, because some of it was just ridiculous and some of the things that you were being asked to do and everything else and the way you- you kind of got through it was you’d would say alright you know I’ll do this, but you know alright so okay. Interviewer: Okay and did you understand what they were doing and why they were doing it? To some degree yeah, I mean some of it seemed excessive, some of it seemed absurd but youyou realized in the end it was, they were trying to form a cohesive unit and- and ultimately you know it was bringing a group of individuals that didn't know one another together as a- as a team. Interviewer: And so you could function automatically. Yes. �Interviewer: And do what you had to do. Yes. Interviewer: Okay now did, when you were going through that, did any of the instructors make any reference to what was happening in Vietnam or was this more general? (8:48) Not really, no that was- that was pretty much just foc- that part was just focused on the physical preparation training. Interviewer: Okay, okay so when do you graduate from college? 1968. Interviewer: Alright and now at this point you've completed ROTC. Right. Interviewer: Okay so what happens to you now with the military? The, I had a commitment from Sears Roebuck a management training position with them and the military gave you up to a year before you had to go on active duty. So, I was able to get a year extension from my graduation, completed a year and the beauty at that time was the company that you went to work for had to give you a commitment that when you completed the two years that you would return to the same position that you- you had when you left. (9:42) Interviewer: Alright so when do you actually receive your commission? As soon as we finished, as soon as we had graduation the next step was commissioning. �Interviewer: Okay so now at this point you're a second lieutenant? Yes. Interviewer: But now do you go from there now to work for Sears for a year? Yes. Interviewer: Okay so you do that before you get any more officer training with the Army? Exactly, yes. Interviewer: Okay alright and so where were you living for that year? Pittsburgh. Interviewer: Okay alright and so where then do you go once you finish that I guess- I guess, first of all I guess that's a pretty interesting year because ‘68 into ‘69. Yes. Interviewer: I mean you would have, Martin Luther King had already been assassinated. Yes. Interviewer: In the spring, which might not have had too much of a repercussion in eastern Pennsylvania I don’t know. Yeah, that’s correct. �Interviewer: But then you had you know Johnson had announced he wasn't running, you had the presidential election going on, then you had democratic convention and the riots in Chicago. Yes. Interviewer: You had Bobby Kennedy getting assassinated, a lot of stuff was going on. Absolutely. Interviewer: In that period. Yes. Interviewer: And so you're watching this as a temporary civilian. Yeah. (10:46) Interviewer: Knowing you're going in the Army. Right. Interviewer: So what's going through your head at that point? Yeah, I initially I was supposed to go in in January and so I graduated in May and actually started for Sears in September and then I worked, I worked at a pool, lifeguard through the summer. So, I realized this is it, this is going to be my last hurrah, went to work for Sears in September and it was a much more enjoyable, much more rewarding experience than I was expecting. So I- I wrote and the- the Army gave me an extension then so rather than going in in January which I was supposed to do, they extended me out a year was the longest that you could �delay going in on active duty. So, they extended that until June, and I was- I was happy, I think it gave me an opportunity to mature, gave me a lot of training, management training and other experience prior to actually just rather than just going from college into the military so. (11:48) Interviewer: Alright so now you get to June of ’69, now you're going in you know for real so what do you do next? Fort Benning, Georgia and again it was, I don't want to say it was an exact repeat but again it was infantry that was infantry officer basic training and so I had eight weeks of a repeat to some degree of what I had had at Indiantown Gap. Interviewer: Okay now this time around is there more directly relating to Vietnam? Not really. Interviewer: Okay. I mean there's- there's more because number one the time factor and Tet of ‘68 had occurred so yeah I mean it was, as a matter of fact I didn't realize it but by requesting intelligence you were essentially asking to go to Vietnam because at the time that I arrived in ‘69 there were more intelligence officers in Vietnam than there were infantry officers in Vietnam. So, it yeah, the training was- was more geared to southeast Asia that experience what that preparation was going to be, but it wasn't until my next until the intelligence training in Fort Holabird where they really started focusing on Vietnam. (13:05) Interviewer: Okay now while you were at Fort Benning let's see did they- did they take you into swamps or did you just stay? Yeah. �Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, I- I mean the areas now that was the summer in Georgia but yeah, the issues that we had were the temperatures, they would shut down training exercises when the temperature would hit 95 degrees and it quite often hit 95 in the afternoon and we were getting up at 4, 4:30 in the morning to be able to do calisthenics and exercises in the dark just so that they could get that in prior to the temperature rising it'd be in the 80’s. Interviewer: Of course, if they were gonna send you to Vietnam. Yes. Interviewer: You'll want to get used to that kind of thing. Exactly why not. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: And then so but did they do it all kind of at the facilities at Fort Benning or did they take you off? It was all Fort Benning. Interviewer: Okay so they weren't taking ‘em into the Okefenokee Swamp or up to Delano. No but there were- there were enough areas that you know were somewhat indicative of what I, not where I was in the Delta but certainly indicative of areas of Vietnam. (14:10) �Interviewer: Alright and then how long was that at Fort Benning? Eight weeks. Interviewer: It's still just eight weeks, okay not a not a six-month school or anything like that. No, no. Interviewer: Okay now how long was your actual active-duty commitment? It was a two-year commitment. Interviewer: Okay alright so yeah, they need to move you through pretty quickly. Yes. Interviewer: So they can use you. So you do your eight weeks at Fort Benning and then Fort Holabird, Maryland is the next stop? Yes. Interviewer: Okay and what are you getting there? It's the intelligence training there were two, two, it was eight weeks, but it was two four-week segments one was specifically focused on- on MACV and all the elements of intelligence and preparing you to be an intelligence officer as far as briefings and gathering intelligence and everything that you would do and then it was preparing it for Vietnam so. Interviewer: Okay explain what MACV is. �(15:02) Military advice- Assistance Command, Vietnam and so we were advisors so and- and it's kind of a- a dubious term because the reality was I had a counterpart, a Vietnamese counterpart, each one of us on our, we were a three-man team was a captain, supposedly a captain slot, but for most of my time in Vietnam it was a lieutenant. And so there were two lieutenants and an NCO and then at times we would have a- an enlisted man that would- would do a lot of the recording of the data and intelligence but essentially we were a three-man team and- and then there was the, we were directly associated with a Vietnamese intelligence group team so I had a counterpart and… Interviewer: Okay we'll get into that more later once we get you over to Vietnam but basically, but you were basically, but you were being prepared to work in that kind of slot or assignment. Yes. (16:04) Interviewer: With that. Well to some degree, it- it was I think each one of us we- we had individual experiences and you had no idea exactly what you’re… Interviewer: Right. What your responsibility was gonna be. Interviewer: Okay and then you said the- the sort of that second phase you're kind of learning about Vietnam. What are you learning there? Yes, yes it was about everything from the government to the enemy situation, to what particular positions, or possible positions we might actually have to assume. So, it was rather extensive. �Interviewer: Okay. It was a daily, it was six days a week and we, they- they were pumping us through at that time, so my session was from six in the morning until noon and then there was another group that started at one in the afternoon and went until seven. And we did that six days a week for two months. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, that was rather intense. Interviewer: Alright so once you get through that now what happens? (17:03) Then you had- you had a month of leave and then- then you got on a plane, and you flew to Vietnam. Interviewer: Okay so when did they send you to Vietnam? It was November, I arrived in about a week before, not even, a few days before Thanksgiving. Interviewer: Okay of 1969? ‘69. Interviewer: Okay alright now how do they get you physically to Vietnam? Well, you got orders and requisitions to be able to fly. I flew commercially to San Francisco and then flew- flew out- outside of San Francisco, we had a flight that went over. Interviewer: Okay and were you in a chartered civilian aircraft or? �It was. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, yeah Pan Am. Interviewer: Alright and do you remember where you stopped on the way over? Yeah, we went to Anchorage, Alaska. Interviewer: Okay. And then- and then into Yokota, Japan and then Japan Yokota to Saigon. Interviewer: Okay so did you land a Tan Son Nhut? The big airport there. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Yes. Interviewer: Did you come in during the day or at night. (18:04) During the day. Interviewer: Okay so what's your first impression of Vietnam when you get there? You- you know have all this anticipation, you're on a- on a commercial airline a Pan Am as if you're going on vacation or you're- you're going on a trip and they open the door and the last �thing you say to the flight attendant “see in a year.” You're trying to think of something you know from an amusing standpoint, a light- light. And you walk down the steps and it's you know they didn't have ramps, so you walk down the steps and the first thing you notice are coffins, all these wooden coffins in the plane next to you that they're loading up, that's your first reality check that okay I’m in Vietnam I’m in a war zone and okay so. (18:54) Interviewer: Alright and then so you get off the plane now what do they do with you? Well you get, you go through the in processing and- and then I was, it was my roommate and myself and it turned out that in his processing the assignment that he got he went as far north as you could go in Vietnam and I was assigned to go as far south as you could go in Vietnam. So I was in Saigon maybe a day or two and then and then they found I- I flew to, they put me on military aircraft, flew down to Can Tho which is the capital of Delta spent two/ three days there with processing and then it wasn't until I got to Can Tho that I found out specifically what mywhat my assignment was going to be. (19:41) Interviewer: Okay so what was the assignment? Well I was- I was going to An Xuyen Province, Cà Mau and they didn't exactly say because atat Province level and then you had at An Xuyen we had six districts and a district team, which was a 10-man team and- and so I could have, initially I was assigned to be in one of these district teams but I got to Cà Mau and one of the lieutenants in the S2 shop at Province had only a month or two to go and I hit it off with the- the S3 and so he said, “you know what I think we could use you here, I think we're going to keep you here.” Interviewer: Okay explain what S2 and S3 are. Well, S2, in the Army breaks it down, S1 essentially is personnel that that officer oversees, personnel and manages that. S2 manage the intelligence aspect, the intelligence gathering and �dissemination of information. S3 is pretty much operations, runs the operations make sure that this advisory team is well coordinated. And then there's S4 which is supply. (20:56) Interviewer: Right. And so yeah it was. Interviewer: Okay so you were assigned to a specific unit or something with a number or designation? Advisory Team 80. Interviewer: Okay Was the team. Interviewer: Okay and describe a little bit just that physical area that you're in, what kind of landscape is there? It's- it's rice paddies I mean you're when I- when I was told where I was going of course you have no idea and so when I went out to the airfield in Can Tho and I flew down on a Caribou and the pilot said to me, “so where are we leaving you?” I said, “Cà Mau.” He said, “well, good luck buddy.” It was- it was known as a you know a hot area, hot sector. So, you fly down there and you make a number of different stops in these different provinces and then they finally get to Cà Mau and the ramp comes down and you walk out and all you see is one little- one little building with some Vietnamese running around, no Americans, no anything. You don't whether to take a prone position with your rifle, you don't know what to do honestly. The ramp goes up, the plane takes off and there you are wondering, alright where do I go now? What happens next? So I went up to the building and of course they're all Vietnamese and nobody spoke English so I thought alright I’ll just bide my time here and within about 10 or 15 minutes all of a sudden a Jeep �comes- comes out and it was from the orderly room and they were picking up the mail, the sacks of mail, whatever had been dropped off. So I introduced myself, said, “jump in.” So, and it was about a 10-minute ride from there to- to the compound that we were. (22:53) Interviewer: Okay. Living in. Interviewer: Alright and describe the compound, how big was it? What did it look like? It was- it was cement and cement walls, at one time it was a- a French resort, which it must have been many, many years ago because you could not see that so that there were some buildings and some rooms but yeah it was and then you had pill boxes and bunkers and it was completely surrounded by a wall with barbed wire and it was just all rice paddies, so that's all you saw, rice paddies everywhere. Interviewer: Kind of an odd place for a resort at that point. Exactly, you wonder what- what were people doing down there, I have no idea. Interviewer: Maybe the beach was closer in those days but, yeah. Okay so was this mainly a Vietnamese base? (23:45) No this was American, this was U.S. Interviewer: Okay, alright and so what was there? I mean was there an infantry unit there? No, it was just our advisory team. �Interviewer: Okay. And it comprised about the- the team itself was total personnel was about 120 and we had a SEAL Team attached to us as well. 10-man SEAL Team so and- and as I described the S1, S2 shop, S3, S4, and then but essentially we were just supporting and providing support to the Vietnamese and so we're an advisory team so each one of those different shops had a comparable Vietnamese shop so they worked with. Interviewer: Okay, alright so were there any Vietnamese personnel on your base or were they all somewhere else? Just a couple interpreters, that was it. Interviewer: Okay, alright now were there American units in the province in other places? No. (24:45) Interviewer: So this is pretty much all at this point South Vietnamese? At that- at that point this was, the term was Vietnamization and yeah, I think a year or two before there were probably Marines, you had Navy patrol boats running through there when I first arrived I actually roomed with a, the NILO, the Naval Intelligence Liaison Officer he was primarily gathering intelligence for the SEAL Team so that they could run their- their discrete operations. Interviewer: Alright so you- you get there, you meet people, so what's your job? I would every, probably just to give you chronologically, every afternoon I would get from the Vietnamese agent reports of enemy units where they were located and activity movements. And the, after about a month, I arrived there in November in December it was more gathering �information, finding out about my counterpart and learning about the area. Initially every morning I would, we had a CIA officer, Australian in- in Cà Mau itself and I would drive to hishis home and gather some intelligence from him and get the intelligence that I could get from the Vietnamese, and we had a map with overlays and every day we would plot the enemy units, their locations on the map, every day looking for patterns and trends. And then after a month I was asked if I wanted to go on a, what they called a phantom mission which was they'll give you a Huey helicopter and two Cobra Gunships and I’d take my unit sightings and we'd fly, we essentially go over the Province and go from- go from coordinate to coordinate wherever these units were and whatever we found we put ordinance in and that was essentially my- my job and we were fairly successful, we were very successful with that. It was impressive how accurate the agent reports were that we were receiving and- and so they expanded the number of missions that I would run so rather than one or two a week, I was running them almost daily or every other day running those missions and they could arrive typically they'd come twice a day, could be first thing in the morning they'd be out there in the dark we'd take off and then in the afternoon we'd go up. And so whenever I wasn't flying in the Huey directing those- those phantom missions then starting in January I flew in an O-1 Bird Dog observer and so we had a, we had a Bird Dog and a CW, a Chief Warrant officer stationed at our team also and so he and I would fly every day also. (28:10) Interviewer: Okay and so this is just a little propeller plane, so. Yeah, a single engine. Interviewer: Right okay and so was that simply observer or did you have ordinance to? Yeah we had- we had four rocket pods on each wing and those- those- the rockets that we would use you had white phosphorus so we could mark targets if we were directing in airstrikes or if we were directing other helicopters, Cobras or whatever it would take. And- and then we also had VT which were variable time so the pilot could adjust if he wanted that to explode before it actually detonated on the ground. And we had four different- four different rockets that we could utilize and used them all, we used them all. �Interviewer: Alright now okay so the- there was the Bird Dog, was that based on your base? Yes. (29:12) Interviewer: Okay now what, did the helicopters come from somewhere else? They came from Can Tho it was a aviation unit that was headquartered based in Can Tho. Interviewer: Okay. And so we had and- and I- I think one of the reasons I’m here today is because two- two primary reasons, one that we had that SEAL Team. And number two that we had Cobras that were with us every night shut down on the airfield, stayed all night long and then at daylight they would fly back to Can Tho. So, the enemy knew that if- if there was any activity anywhere in the province those choppers were up, and they were directed in on those. So that was our security. Interviewer: Okay now did you have people who did perimeter securities? Yes, yes that was, those were the locals, the Indigenous. Interviewer: Okay. And so we had some we had some local, actually there were civilians that- that actually trained and worked with the Indigenous Vietnamese and so they set up perimeters, they set up security force. (30:21) Interviewer: Okay so, the Vietnamese were these regional forces or? �Yeah, yeah they used to, we referred to them as Ruff Puffs. Interviewer: Yes. Regional Provincial. Interviewer: Right. Regional Forces, Provincial Forces. Interviewer: And how reliable were they? They were, they initially it was, they were suspect but- but they got into, in the tenure of my time in Cà Mau and in An Xuyen those forces went up against some NVA so which were the North Vietnamese which were regulars. Interviewer: Yeah. And they held their own and of course we- we were able to give them air support which the NVA didn't have but still they were, they really became a an effective fighting machine. Interviewer: Okay and then you were paired with a Vietnamese officer. Right. (31:15) Interviewer: Or did you get a rotation of those going through or? No. Interviewer: Okay so talk about the guy you worked with then. �Oh he was, he'd be, he was, he became one of my closest friends if I have no idea if he's alive today but, yeah we would, we were very close. Early on we, he and I typically on a Saturday morning we could, Saturday- Sunday morning more typically. We jump in the Jeep the two of us put our weapons in the back seat and just take off into the countryside. And you look back on it and you think about you know these are some foolish things that we did but we were both so comfortable and I was comfortable with him and with his relationships and what he knew and people he knew and so, yeah we were- we were really close. Interviewer: So what was there to do when you were, just looking at stuff or would you visit people or? Yeah, yeah we would visit people, we would stop and have coffee, it was socializing and- and the- the people were very, very in that immediate area were very friendly and the children loved us being there so, it was a wonderful experience. (32:23) Interviewer: Okay were there, I mean did the Viet Cong retaliate against people like that? Were there problems with them? The one thing you did not do was you did it sporadically, there was no routine in what you did because I mean there was one time not me personally but some others that I associated with actually water skied on the river and you could go one way but you didn't want to come back because as soon as you- you did something and they knew that there was a routine to what you were doing they would take advantage of that. We would, again for some cooperation locally we played some volleyball games, we played some basketball games with the Vietnamese in Cà Mau, and we always got warnings that, okay you better not do this a second time or a third time because they're going to set up, they're going to ambush, they're going to, they're going to create some havoc here. So it had to be spontaneous when you did things like that. Interviewer: Now but with the civilians that you were associating with. �Yeah. Interviewer: Would they face retaliation, or the Viet Cong stay away from them? (33:27) Not that I’m aware of yeah not, not in Cà Mau I think there was, when I first arrived to put it in perspective, when I first arrived I could go straight up and I had clearance to fire rockets 360 degrees we didn't have to get clearance, after I’d been there four months I had to clear with the Vietnamese before I would go out with any of these missions and I’d have to identify exactly where we were going. So, so if you want to say Vietnamization was- was fairly successful in the immediate area of Cà Mau I think so, I would say so, I felt pretty safe driving around. It was- it was very rural, very but… Interviewer: Now did you go anywhere at night or only in the day? It was in day, during daylight. Interviewer: Okay and but basically, you're, so you have to for- for much the time you're there you have to let the Vietnamese know ahead of time where you're going. Yeah, after about four or five months. Interviewer: But once you got there but the targets were still there. (34:32) That was part of, part of the challenge I had after, the reason we were so successful initially was because I'd have those agent sightings, I could go out either with a- with a Cobra package, or I could go out with- with the warrant officer… Interviewer: Right. �And the Bird Dog and we could go after those targets. Nobody- nobody knew where we were going other than the fact that I had all these agent reports and I just, as a matter of fact, we had, just in that plane we had more of everything, more sampans, more- more KIAs, more everything than all the Vietnamese units on the ground and we couldn't report it because you're not supposed to be able to do that from a single engine Bird Dog. Interviewer: Right. Okay but, yeah we were extremely successful. And then at the end of about four or five months then before I could go up and do anything they required me to have clearance from the Vietnamese and- and so I unfortunately though when you're over a target and now we had to call in to get clearance before we could go in on the target even though we were in a, you know absolutely enemy area, enemy patrolled area. It, we’d lose the spontaneity, the ability and so then they decided okay we'll put a Vietnamese in the helicopter with you and- and he can make on onsite determinations, and he still was not successful in doing that for me because you had to react. And so I put him on the opposite side of the helicopter from where I was observing the action, I was making decisions which I had always done and then we report to him what had just taken place and then he could report it back. So, I mean there's no point in- in doing this if you can't be, the immediacy of the action requires that. (36:28) Interviewer: So, he either couldn't spot the things or just wouldn't- didn't want to give an order. Exactly, would not- would not confirm, yeah you can- you can put those, you can put those Cobras on that target. No, he didn't want that responsibility. Interviewer: Okay. And so, I was like that's why we're here, that's why I’m, that's why I’m up here, that's why I’m putting these guys in on these targets. �Interviewer: Now because I guess one of the standard assumptions in a lot of cases is that if we were alerting the Vietnamese to what we were doing… Yes. Interviewer: Then the enemy always knew. Yes. Interviewer: And could be somewhere else. Yes. Interviewer: But at least when you, what it sounds like when you were flying these missions even, I guess now at the point during the period when you were telling them at clearing ahead of time would you go out there and there wouldn't be anybody there? Not really because I would- I would only give them a certain amount of time. Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that- that the enemy had agents within the intel shop, the Vietnamese intel shop not my counterpart, not the captain, but some of the enlisted people because there were some operations that we had that were rather sophisticated and when we actually went out to- to move on the target, target was gone and we knew- we knew it had been there the day before and it was gone. And so that convinced me now we- we there's only a certain amount, and that was one of the reasons why the- the NILO, the naval intelligence, he would not share intelligence information with me because he was concerned it would get back to the Vietnamese and then it would not be successful for them. (38:08) Interviewer: Alright now did the SEAL Team operate out of the base the whole time you were there or did… �Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Yes. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: And do you have any idea what they were doing? It was primarily, I mean specifically no, but their- their function was to more take out individual leadership targets in these units and so they weren't daily doing this, and they were typically running operations at night. They might run one a week, but interestingly the entire time I was there, we had two different SEAL Teams, time I was there- there was only one casualty and that was a fellow was wounded from Air Support, from U.S. Air Support, that was the only casualty in the entire year I was there, and they went into some bad areas and some rather delicate operations. (39:12) Interviewer: Okay alright because by then we had things like the Phoenix Program and so forth where we were… That's exactly what they were, that was their primary function. Interviewer: We were basically trying to take out enemy leadership Yes. Interviewer: And so forth at that point. �Yes. Interviewer: Alright now the base itself did that ever get targeted by the enemy? Yes. Interviewer: Okay what… And I, it- it was second night I was there actually, it was about two in the morning and- and all of a sudden, I wake up and I hear the shrapnel hitting off the- the shutters of the room that I was in, and it was like okay, that's probably the most scared I’ve been in my life. And that was my first realization, okay you know I’ve been there two days and- and we got mortared so, yeah and then we couldn't- we couldn't get to the bunkers we couldn't get anywhere to protect ourselves. You don't know if this is- if this is an all-out attack or what they're doing. Well, it turned out that we had a resupply convoy that would come down once a month, convoy had come down and they would stay that at night and drive back the next day. So, they were actually targeting that convoy, not us and- and so but I- I made a point I knew exactly, determined pretty quickly where that mortar position was, who the unit was, plotted that on the map and so the last thing I would do every, when we flew at night, late afternoon, early evening, last thing I would do would for some of those units and the coordinates when I knew they moved into areas where they would, they had hit us before or where we knew that they were in attack position then the last thing I would do would be fly over that and just to confirm that okay you know they're not mounting an attack on us and we never got hit again. They, there were harassing things that were done but we never got mortared again in the year I was there so. (41:14) Interviewer: Okay and the perimeter didn't get probed by anybody? No. Interviewer: Okay. �No, we had, again those Cobras, they knew they had the Cobras. I mean there are things I look back on it now why didn't they do there, there were things that I had- I had to do and I’m thinking why didn't anybody try and take me out? I have no explanation for that but having those Cobras there and having that SEAL Team right there, right immediately attached to us they knew the kind of firepower that we had and so no we didn't, yeah, we were fortunate. Interviewer: Alright now did you go, did you pretty much stay within that, that province the whole year that you were there? Yes, well I yes, I mean as far as my function I- I would have to go up to Can Tho to get the- the funds for the agents and but as far as running operations it was strictly in the province. Interviewer: Okay getting funds for the agents, talk a little bit about your relationship with the agents and what you're doing with them. (42:16) It was all done through the Vietnamese so I would- I would go to Can Tho which was the capital of Delta, go to a- an office and they would give me a briefcase with a certain amount of money I’d have to sign for in piastres, Vietnamese currency and then bring that back to- bring that back to Cà Mau and give that to the Vietnamese. Did that every month. Interviewer: Okay and would you go to them, or did they come to the base or? No, no they it was right in the shop right there. Interviewer: Okay, okay. That we- we shared together. Interviewer: Okay. �So, I’d bring it right to them but, I mean the absurdity, the one aspect of it the absurdity of it was it was not in a good area, it was of Can Tho where we would go to get these funds. And here's an officer with no, no weapon nope, no security, no ability to provide security and handed a briefcase with thousands of dollars of piastres and I had to get, I had when I first got there I had a 45 that they had issued me but with the Vietnamization they needed- they needed that, they needed so many other things to- to provide the support to the Vietnamese so I had to give my weapon up, I had to get my 45 up and so I had no sidearm and- and so there were- there were other like myself that resorted to the these what they call Saigon cowboys, these guys would come up on their motorbikes and just grab the- grab the briefcase and then just shfff drive off and there were- there were other guys that I knew, officers that ended up throwing rocks at these guys anything they could just try and stop them. I mean it was just… (44:04) Interviewer: Okay but you managed not to be harassed. I don’t know it was my size, I don't know. I might, yeah no they- they never tried it with me. Interviewer: Alright and do you have vacation ever to go up to Saigon or anything like that? Yes we, my- my roommate was the- was the S3 and he was captain and so the nice thing about his- his rank and his responsibility and then my rank as an intelligence officer was nobody could really question where we were, what we were doing and so he would write us orders at a period of time and we'd jump on a plane and go up to Saigon spent some time there, went to Vung Tau, which was the in-country R & R, spent a few days there and so I had some flexibility. Traveled somewhat through Vietnam went up to Dalat, which is where the- the Vietnamese officer candidate school was, training and Cam Ranh Bay and- and so we- we had some flexibility to be able to do that and which was nice just to be able to get a little diversion from the day-to-day but the one thing I would say is you know as much as we were in the boondocks, there was no saluting and you know when I went back up to Saigon and you realize you might as well be on a U.S. base you know it was all the saluting and everything else that was going on it's like, I like- I �like and- and the guys that had actually been initially assigned there and thought okay this is a cake job for us, they all regret it, by when I would see them I’d say, “hey can I switch? We, can I swap jobs with you?” You know but, so I’m, you know I look back on it and I’m happy I was where I was. (46:03) Interviewer: Alright well who was in charge of your base? It was a Lieutenant Colonel Sawyer, he was the Province Senior Advisor: PSA. Interviewer: Was he there the full year or did he rotate out? Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, he was there, he had, he was there when I got there, and he was there when I left although I understand from the fellow that replaced me in a letter that was maybe two or three months after I left that- that he was reassigned. Interviewer: Okay because normally you assigned, I mean people are there for a year and they move on. Yes. Interviewer: But it may be that in certain capacities they either stay… I think so and I think it was his choice, so yeah, he had a pretty, I don't know it was a good job, yeah. �Interviewer: Alright now you were there during the period of the Cambodian incursion in 1970. Yeah. Interviewer: Now you’re at the far southern tip of South Vietnam which is away from the actual Cambodian border. Yes. Interviewer: But were there ripple effects or things that you saw relating to that? (47:02) When, even before the- the actual invasion took place we were, Ralph and myself were flying and just for our own curiosity we thought let's just go up a little further north outside of our province and we did and we saw- we saw these regular troops, regular NVA just in formation, just moving away from the border, moving going west and- and there was such intensity and you could see the intent that the- the motivation on their part just to go. They- they could have cared less that we were flying over them and observing them, and they just kept marching, and it was… Interviewer: So, they're marching you said, away from the- away from the province border? Yes. Interviewer: But toward the Cambodian border? Yes, into Cambodia, they were marching into Cambodia yeah, yeah. So whether or not they were being moved to provide support for that invasion that was about to begin I don't know, but yeah but that was quite a sight because most of, anytime I would have these- these phantom missions or these helicopters would come down inevitably they'd always say to me, “lieutenant can you �find us troops on the ground? We want troops on the ground.” And because they wanted, knowing that they were going in on so many targets they wanted to be able to record it so they could have some confirmation of exactly what they were accomplishing and- and it was always a challenge, yeah there were many times that we would find that, but you might find four, six, eight, ten that would be max. In this case you're looking at hundreds if not thousands and it was like I’d never seen anything like that you know. And it corroborated all the intelligence that we've been gathering about the numbers… Interviewer: Right. (49:03) …we had, not only in our province but the numbers that were along the border coming down that Ho Chi Minh trail. Interviewer: Yeah, and you've got North Vietnamese regulars down there. Yes. Interviewer: And they're not just- not just Viet Cong or whatever, yeah and now when you saw that did you call in anything on them or did you… Yeah, yeah we did yeah, yeah we reported what we saw but I think at that point it was, that was later in my tour and so it was more the responsibility of the Vietnamese to react to that. Interviewer: Okay. And it wasn't like we were putting in U.S. airstrikes or U.S. helicopters at that point it was Vietnamese. Interviewer: Okay. �The Vietnamese had taken over that function. Interviewer: Alright so you have no idea what happened after that? I do not know, no, no, no. Interviewer: Alright I guess how much confidence did you have in the ability of the Vietnamese to be able to kind of take over the war? (50:02) Where I was the, it was a very, very competent the S2 that S2 shop that Vietnamese S2 shop as they say, I was an advisor, but the reality was I was- I was really liaison providing funding for them and them and then reporting what in our missions that we were running with the Cobras, or I was running with the Bird Dog. Reporting what we found but no, they were- they were extremely competent in the- in the province where I was, yeah. Interviewer: But there was still a substantial enemy presence there? Yes, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Much more so than- than either that PSA, that Lieutenant Colonel wanted me to admit in, or communicate in intelligence briefings. We would have pacification conferences every month and it was like my second month and the- the S2 was, I was the assistant S2 when I first got there. The S2 was had gone I- I either on leave or on R&R, so I was the one providing the intelligence situation and we could have, we one of those conferences we had the ambassador to Vietnam, you'd have newspaper people, you'd have government people that would come down, and so each- each the S1, S2, S3, S4, each one of us would have a certain period of time that we would provide you know the state of the state essentially and the colonel and I never really saw eye to eye because I- I told it the way it was. I, you know I’m flying over this province every day I �know what the state of the enemy situation is and it didn't coincide with what the Vietnamization communication that was- was being provided back to the States. It didn't corroborate what I really found and so at one point one of those conferences he said- said to me, “Lieutenant,” I was the second lieutenant at that point, he said, “Lieutenant, remember your rank, sit down.” He sat me down that was the last time I briefed in one of those conferences because he just didn't trust that I was going to give the policy briefing that- that they wanted. (52:26) Interviewer: Okay so explain a little bit kind of what the context of this is going on, I mean a pacification conference what, what is, what are you trying to establish? Essentially, it's again the- the state of- of what the situation is as far as our ability to have trained the Vietnamese in taking over responsibility for the war. And in anticipation of you and I getting together I- I read through some of my letters and the letter that I wrote the second day I was in the country, I was still in Saigon and I must have gone to a briefing and- and in that letter I was writing this to my folks and I pretty much said, “yeah we're probably going to be here longer than we think but this whole policy seems to be working and the training of the Vietnamese to take over this it's just it's probably going to be longer than we thought.” Well a letter that I wrote six months later in May pretty much said, “this is ludicrous, the amount of money that we're spending, it's not happening, we're training peasants, we're training people that have been working with water buffalos, we're putting them in planes giving them all kinds of weaponry. They have no responsibility for it, no accountability for it and we’re- we're wasting our time.” So that was a six months and my comment was, “I don't want you to think I’m going to come back home and I’m going to be marching in parades but it's just this is- this is not a worthwhile endeavor.” (54:02) Interviewer: Okay so what would have needed to be done differently to make it work better? Well I think what we, Ralph and I in our- in our plane were waging war as it was I think intended �to be, okay you find out where the enemy is and you go after him and you eliminate him before he eliminates you. As opposed to after as I said four to five months, now I have to get clearance these targets are still enemy targets, they haven't changed, we haven't done anything out there inin some of those rural areas to convert these people to you know their loyalty to the Vietnamese. I mean they're still, you know if the- if the Vietcong or The North Vietnamese are paying them more money and are providing the support that they think is more important for their lives then that's who they're gonna, they will support. Until you have control and- and they did not have control in those rural areas, you know it still was going to be a long, long way off. So, and I’m sure that that was fairly typical of every province in the country. (55:20) Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: I mean you're actually given a sort of more positive assessment of what the Vietnamese were capable of than some other people have from other places. Because I guess at least your- your local forces in your area were able to provide security, you could drive on the roads during the day and… Yes. Interviewer: You could carry your money around and nobody took it Yes. Interviewer: So that was… Yes. �Interviewer: On some level it was functioning as far as you can tell the civilian population wasn't really being intimidated too badly by the Viet Cong. Right. Interviewer: Or there weren't people getting executed or things like that. Yes. Interviewer: In that area. Now, okay so did you leave the country on R&R or did? Yes, I, the fellows that I was in training with we all decided that we were gonna save our leave and R&R until the very end of the tour. Let's- let's survive this thing, let's endure this and then it'll make the end of go much more quickly for us. Interview: Okay. So, we went to Thailand in August of ’69. Interviewer: Or ‘70 probably. Excuse me ’70. August of ‘70 and then Australia in October. (56:36) Interviewer: So you got two R&R’s. Yeah, my again, the advantage I had was that you- you got an R&R which was compliments of the Army. Interviewer: Yeah. �And I took a week's leave for my second trip, vacation to Australia and because my roommate was an S3 he said, “Barry I’m not going to charge you for this,” so this one, so- so I was able to get essentially two R&R's. Interviewer: So what was it like to leave Vietnam for a while and go off on these trips? I, one thing to put it in perspective and I thought about this because again you- you fly out of Saigon and we flew at night and we were coming from all areas of Vietnam and- and I coordinated with the guys that, that I got through basic with so, so we all went together but we all got in that airplane, civilian airplane probably about 9/ 10 o'clock at night. As the plane was rolling down the runway and it's at night so you've got your lights on and you've got the shades on the windows, all of a sudden we had started at some point in the plane where the shade on the window they started coming down, okay everybody just, all of us we all thought yep the last thing we want to do we're about to have a vacation, the last thing we want to do is provide a target for any- any enemy that might be out there and so here we are we're flying at night everybody's bringing in there, the window shades, so that kind of put it in perspective. You, the time that you're there there's an underlying, there's an anxiety, underlying anxiety. You- you can't totally relax, yeah, I mean you have some light moments and, but the reality is you're, you know there is that underlying anxiety. Not until you get in that plane, until that plane is out of Vietnam airspace, when that pilot made that, cheer went up. And then it's probably the first time you can say “okay, safe.” Yeah so. (59:07) Interviewer: Alright which trip did you like better? The Thailand. Bangkok was without a doubt, it was I love I- I love Asia, I love Asians, I love the food, I love the culture. And- and that was- that was quite an experience and then when we went to Australia, it was to some degree anti-climactic, you know because it was only a month later that I was… Interviewer: Yeah. �…going home but also very special, but certainly Thailand was a beautiful country, beautiful experience, wonderful experience. Interviewer: Okay alright now talk a little bit about I mean there's this fellow Ralph that you mentioned. Ralph. (59:53) Interviewer: Okay he's the warrant officer. Yes. Interviewer: Who was flying the bird dog? Yes. Interviewer: Describe him a little bit. He was Mormon and in the Mormon religion you can't smoke or drink but didn't prevent him from being able to kill. And the one thing I found when I first started flying there were two bird dog pilots, one was a lieutenant, army lieutenant and then Ralph who was a chief warrant. And the one thing you realize quickly is if you're going in on an enemy target, you're diving in on that target and if you don't put that ordinance on the target so you're- you're coming, you're starting at 2000 feet you're diving in on the target. It's like coming in on a roller coaster, coming over the top of a roller coaster, when you're diving in from 2000 feet you're going probably about 120 miles an hour, when you pull out you're going about 60 miles an hour. If you haven't put that ordinance on that target, you're probably gonna- you're probably gonna get shot. So, the, my realization was Ralph was just he had- he had and- and here's a guy flying a Bird Dog won two distinguished flying crosses, two at DFC’s, flying a bird dog. �Interviewer: Yeah. (1:01:22) I mean that's pretty unusual and one of them when I was flying with him and he was, I mean the things and- and I never knew, I mean he would pretty much be spontaneous I’d- I’d put him out to certain coordinates and if he saw something he didn't say “okay we're going in,” it was all of a sudden chhhuu the front end of the plane just drops and he's- he's diving in on a target. And so I would lift myself out of the chair like that, I’m not going to get shot in my butt whatever's going to go here but, yeah and that was every day we were pretty much doing that, that you never getyou never get comfortable with that knowing when we're diving in on something, something's gonna probably gonna be shooting back at us. Interviewer: Alright did your plane ever get hit? Six times. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, yeah and early on one of them, one of the rounds when we got back, we looked at it and the round had hit a strut or it would have, an engine strut, or it would have gone right through his head. So, he said to me, “I think- I think we better instruct you how to bring this plane in if something happens to me.” So, for about a week we- we, I took flying lessons from him. Interviewer: Okay. (1:02:41) Now I wasn't going to take off, I probably would have crash-landed but at least I could have brought the plane back to the- the airfield. But, yeah. Interviewer: Alright now did the other plane have, I mean did that ever get- get hit worse or you were worried that if you weren't with Ralph you might get hit. �Well the other pilot he was- he was having marital problems and he went back to Texas to try and resolve it and it was not able to do that and so he- he just was not taking precautions, supposed to fly at 2000 feet we'd be flying at 1000 feet, he's going in on targets at a much lower level. And- and actually it wasn't me but he got reported and so he lost his wings and they- they brought him back to Saigon. So rather than having two planes we only had one plane. Interviewer: Okay so they didn't replace him. (1:03:44) They didn't replace him no. Interviewer: Alright and then did you have a helicopter pilot you flew with regularly or were they, did they rotate? Companies they- they rotated those, yeah they'd come down they said every, you know every day, every other day we'd have and- and so usually the duration was about two- two and a half hours and then they'd have to go back and refuel so usually it was first thing in the morning and then midafternoon into the early evening. And they couldn't refuel, we didn't have a fuel option for them at Cà Mau so they'd have to go back to Can Tho. Interviewer: Alright so thinking back over that year that you spent in Vietnam are there other particular incidents or impressions that kind of stand out in your memory that we haven't talked about yet? The, just a couple things, one of which is I probably, when I heard about this opportunity I- I don't know a year or two ago I probably would not have pursued this, the opportunity to speak with you but and- and I think for a number of reasons. I think you hear often that if you've been in the combat that you're reluctant to talk about it, you know talk about it with your family. And I think- I think and I really came to this I think it's my own personal belief, but I think it applies to more, is that you internalize so much of that that, and- and there's this macho male image and you, when you start talking about certain things you just become emotional, and you start crying. �And so, it's a- it's a real challenge to talk about some of the, I mean there's a lot that you could talk about, but you don't, you try and remember the lighter moments. So that's one aspect of this, the other is I’m 73, 72 I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. My roommate, matter of fact four of, four of the five guys that I was closest to we get to, still get together every year. Every one of us has come down with cancer at this point in our lives. And the Army has me on permanent disability or the government has me on permanent disability. And so, you become an advocate because I think the reality is in the province where I was with those base areas, the foliage was so dense that they used agent orange rather extensively and whether or not you were direct contact with it, food sources and everything else, any- any number of ways that you did come in contact with it. And- and I think they've come to the conclusion that if we were in Vietnam, you probably had exposure and you're probably gonna be susceptible to having some kind of cancer so… Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: How would you characterize morale among the people in your unit? (1:06:44) The highlight of the day, the highlight of my day was putting an “x” on the calendar it was one last day that I had to spend there. You- you know fortunately I, because I was an officer and because of my ability to get on a plane and fly somewhere I could you know I- I had some control of it. It was, unless you were career Military and I was ROTC, you know you- you when people say to me “thanks- thanks for your service,” quite honestly my- my response has always been, “you know it was my job,” right. I- I was going to be drafted, I was told I had to go, I had to do it, I was gonna do it to the best of my ability which is what I think I did. But it was, yeah it was- it was difficult- it was difficult almost that's- that's the longest, it's the longest year of your life. �Interviewer: Yeah, and did you have enlisted personnel on the base who really couldn't go anywhere or? Pardon Interviewer: Did you have enlisted personnel on the base who really couldn't go anywhere? You- you could get up and fly. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah, we did. (1:07:56) Interviewer: And- and I don't know what was their attitude? Well, we were a small team, I mean 100 might not seem that way, 120 but we were a small team and so and drugs were not really a problem there were a few- there were a few enlisted that got into some heavy drugs. Heroin and cocaine but we all knew that we were dependent upon one another so… Interviewer: Right. You know and relying on one another so you couldn't let your buddy down and so it was you got through it the best you could and you just, it was survival, that's what you did, you just- you just got through that year. Interviewer: Okay and what was the ethnic mix of the unit were you pretty much all white or did you have… �Primarily, yeah it was primarily we had a few minorities but for the most part it was all white and when we would travel to other areas especially at that time there was a lot of racial tension. There wasn't a lot of respect for officers, white officers and so but not where I was, not in the small team that I was on and, but it was pretty apparent when we would travel to Can Tho or travel to certainly Saigon, yeah was not a not a good situation. (1:09:17) Interviewer: Alright so you get to the end now of that year, we get to the end of 1970 now it's time for you to go back to the States, so what's the process for getting you out? You get your, you get the orders and actually I had- I had about a week or two less than the year which was kind of a bonus when I got my orders and so you- you just as you would come down from Saigon to Can Tho to Cà Mau, I and went back the same way Can Tho to Saigon and- and then well I had received my order saying that I would be, when I left Vietnam I was to report to Fort Bragg, special forces Fort Bragg, North Carolina and be assigned to a special forces unit as an intel shop. Interviewer: Okay alright and then do you fly commercial again when you leave or? It was charter. (1:10:21) Interviewer: Yeah. And again, it was same, Yokota to Anchorage to- to… Interviewer: Did you go to San Francisco or Seattle? No, San Francisco. Interviewer: Okay. �Yeah. Interviewer: Alright do you get to go home for a while before you go to Fort Bragg? Yeah fortunately I got home in about the middle of like the 10th or 11th of November and didn't have to report until after the first of January. Interviewer: Okay. So I actually had about six weeks off. Interviewer: Alright and now you're kind of back in the States, you're not out of the Army yet. Right. Interviewer: For a while there you're kind of back home you don't have to be in uniform or whatever and what was that experience like? (1:11:06) It- it, you know they talk about, of course here I am you know my hair's still short even though I was in civilian- civies- civilian clothes, it's pretty apparent that I’m Military. And my roommate at Sears was in a graduate program at CW Post College in Nassau County and so we went on campus, took me on campus I had somebody walk up to me and spit at me so when you talk about that experience, yeah, I did have that one scenario where just out of the absolute blue just walks up to me just spits at me and walks on. That was it, no comment, nothing was said just yeah. But no other than that it was you know I knew that the length of my commitment was two years, so you know I was very comfortable. It was just, I can remember the one emotional think about it, what your parents go through. And my folks when they met me at Kennedy, I came off the plane and I can remember my mother saying, “it's finally over, finally over.” So that you know that whole year you're, you know you're surviving and you're trying to communicate with them and yeah and then so just as you have that anxiety level, that is the same for them you �know. So, but then you know you pretty much get back into your normal routine and- and you, then I went back I reported the guys that I was with we all were assigned to my- my closest friends to Fort Bragg so we all were down there. (1:13:11) Interviewer: Alright, okay so there's still, you're not going to in a way it's not totally new, at least you know some of the people who are there along with you. Yes. Interviewer: Okay so what- what did you actually do at Fort Bragg while you were there? It was a, believe it or not it was a- an intelligence, so it's special forces, Army special forces but we were gathering intelligence for this unit their area of specialization was the Middle East and of course the Middle East there was nothing going on in the Middle East at that time. So here we are most of our day is trying to gather intel, where do you get it? You get it from Time Magazine you get it from news articles and everything else. So that's- that's where we're gathering all this information. So it was really just marking time, putting time in and so at the end of, pretty much the end I had about a month left and the Captain who was a regular Army, great guy and not college, I mean just a- just regular Army captain. Calls us in my roommate, myself he says, “Lieutenant what are your thoughts towards your time is coming up,” he says, “what would it take to keep you in? You're the kind of guys…” Because we I think my- my buddies and I going through ROTC not so gung-ho Military as let's say West Point or OCS, and- and- and he said, “you're the kind of guys we need to stay in,” he said, “what would it take?” And I said, “well if you could guarantee me a year or so in Thailand, I might consider that.” And he said, “are you serious?” And I said, and I thought about it, I said, “yeah I think I might be serious.” Right, so came back to me about a week or two later and he said, “I don't have good news.” I said, “what's that?” He said, “well the best I can do it's guarantee you another year here at Fort Bragg and then you're going back to Vietnam.” So, I said, “I’m not taking that, I’m not rolling those dice again I, you know so I, that was- that was it. But yeah, it was pretty much, the ROTC it was a six-year commitment, two years of active duty and then four years of reserve. But at that time between �the downsizing of the requirement, the troop requirement of Vietnam they pretty much whenwhen you were finished if you were combat, if you had been in a combat zone when you were finished, they pretty much waived that four-year reserve commitment. If I wanted to report to a reserve unit, that was fine, if I didn't that was fine too, so. (1:16:02) Interviewer: Yeah, because in general at that point I mean they were, did you get promoted to captain right as you left? Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: And basically, they had- they had way too many captains in the early 70’s, a lot of them got rifted anyway. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And so, unless you were really well connected you might not have lasted anyway. I, quite honestly Jim I have no idea why they gave me that- that promotion. it came up, they sent me this letter and said okay you know whatever they, maybe they looked at my records I don't know. But they said you know “you're- you qualify for a promotion to the grade of captain. Would you accept it?” Interviewer: Okay. �And I thought, okay who knows at some point in the future for retirement purposes or whatever you know if I, yeah. So I- so I acknowledge that and yeah. Came though, so. Interviewer: Alright so now we get into middle of ’71, you're right, you're out of the Army. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay so do you go back to Sears or what do you do? We, the four that I was closest to, we took leave and R & R together we decided okay we've seen the United States because when we were going through Basic and that we had done some travel in the United States. We'd seen Asia, we said alright before we go back to, I was going back to Sears and each one of them had a job they were going back to, we thought all right let's go to Europe. So, we took two months and went to Europe, traveled through Europe for two months. (1:17:24) Interviewer: What countries did you go to? Started in Germany, Austria, Italy came back up through France, the Netherlands, and- and then England. Interviewer: Okay so at- at this point did you still look kind of Military or at least people could look at you and figure you were probably… Probably not. Interviewer: Okay. No, the sideburns had come down significantly. Interviewer: Okay so you could go out then. �The hair was growing and- and yeah, so. Interviewer: And how did, were people treating Americans at that point? Military? Oh, you mean in- in… Interviewer: Just generally, you were a tourist now but. Okay while we were traveling through Europe, we one of the reasons I- I went for the intelligence branch was my language in high school and college was German, I spoke fairly decent German. Interviewer: Okay. (1:18:12) And so, when we were traveling through Europe I used German, my other, there were four of us two of us spoke pretty good, pretty fluent German. And so if we were going for a pension or we were looking for anything we would ask in German first before we would acknowledge that we were Americans and they never really knew whether we were Canadians or Americans but- but I never really was too, too awkward or too difficult other than that. Just doing some of the negotiating so… Interviewer: Yeah alright. If we had to. Interviewer: Okay, so now you do that and then you come back, so you go back to Sears in Pittsburgh? Yes. �Interviewer: Okay and how long did you stay with him? Probably in total about a year and a half. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, I found it I think the experience I had in the Military influenced me to some degree in a number of ways. One of which was all the travel I’d done, all the independence I had, and Sears was so structured at that point. And I just found it the structural part of Sears in comparison to the Military was not something I really enjoyed. And it just was not, it was not something that was meant to be, so it was about a year and a half, two years and then about a year later I found the position with Stanley Tools, sales. So that- that really started my career, my civilian career. (1:19:46) Interviewer: Okay and then did you stay in sales, or did you move on to other things? I have, yeah, I did sales I went into sales management with them I was with Stanley about eight years and then started my own company and this manufacturer's rep agency, so I’ve been doing that for 30 years. Interviewer: Okay, alright and how did you wind up in West Michigan? I was with Stanley I was headquartered, well I started in Pittsburgh with Sears and they transStanley transferred me to Philly, transferred me to Indianapolis, and then Chicago. And at one point I was actually had responsibility for people working for me in Michigan and I met a fellow that had a manufacturer's rep agency and he said, “if you ever decide that corporate life isn't for you, and you want to give something else a shot contact me.” And in the mid 80’s when the last major recession took place, I was a district manager in middle management one day they let 13 of us go and so I contacted him and I said, “hey if that opportunity still exists, I’d be interested in,” so that's what brought me over here. (1:20:50) �Interviewer: Alright now you’d mentioned that you know you've got what is likely some effects of Agent Orange. Yeah. Interviewer: Do you think that you have any sort of the psychological carry over from Vietnam? I don't think so I- I can tell you this, that when I first got there I- I slept with a sidearm, a revolver by my bed and- and there were a number of incidents that we had when I was using that machine, that machine gun and I can't- I can't fire a weapon anymore. I have no interest, I can't even shoot skeet, I really can't watch combat movies. I’m- I- I have nightmares and so yeah, it's, there's- there as I said there are things you internalize. Interviewer: Right. (1:21:51) And it's not, my son and his girlfriend came in for Thanksgiving and- and we were watching a segment with the Food Network, and they were doing something in North Vietnam and my son even said to me, “Dad do you want us to turn it to something else?” And I said, “nah it's fine.” You know it's essentially just a travelogue. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, that night I was I woke up and I was like pwhooo, I was almost in a sweat. it was like, it was ridiculous, you know these little triggers or little things that- that still occur it’s like… Interviewer: Yeah, I mean anything, an experience like that doesn't- doesn't go away. �No, no that's quite apparent. So yeah, I try and avoid those things people will say to me like that Vietnam series that came on, “did you watch that?” I said, “no I really didn't,” you know I really, even- even books and things like that it's just, I just try and avoid that so. (1:22:53) Interviewer: Okay so what made you decide to come to an interview then? Well two things, number one this is the 50th anniversary of my being there and so I started reading my letters. I wrote about 50 letters home, my mother kept all my letters and I had, I started reading them and- and I just thought when I- when I received that communication, I thought you know what, I think maybe if there's something that I can share maybe there are others but this- this with the cancer is the other thing. That if there's any way that I think whenwhen this occurs you realize I’ve got to be an advocate, got to communicate, anybody that spent any time or associated with Vietnam at that time, that you need to be very diligent, you need to be making sure that you're- you're getting physicals and when you're getting that physical that you're having that PSA checked and in my case I had my physical a year ago in like June, July and there was early detection that there might be some issues, my PSA was somewhat elevated but we, everybody always assumes ah, you know, you're going to die from something else. And I went back six months later, and it had, I have the aggressive form. So you can never make an assumption and I just keep saying you know if you've had it and if your PSA number is just don't assume, just make sure you're getting it, and it can move that quickly in six months as mine did. So, that's- that's probably the primary motivation here is just anyone that's been there and that we're really all advocates for the safety and security. We survived that. Interviewer: Yeah. (1:24:38) So, it's like okay. Interviewer: Alright well the whole thing makes for a pretty good story so thank you very much for coming in and sharing it. Thank you, Jim it's been a pleasure meeting you in this experience. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HillmerB2353V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hillmer, Barry Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-02 Title A name given to the resource Hillmer, Barry (Interview transcript and video), 2020 Description An account of the resource Barry Hillmer was born in Flushing, Queens, New York City, on May 3rd, 1946. He graduated high school in 1964 before beginning the Reserve Officers’ Training Corps program at Lafayette College. After graduating and completing the ROTC program in 1968, he went to Pittsburgh to work for Sears for a year. In June 1969, he was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia for infantry officer basic training. After that, he went to Fort Holabird, Maryland for intelligence training. In November 1969, he received orders to go to Vietnam, flying out of San Francisco and stopping in Anchorage, Alaska and Yokota, Japan before arriving in Saigon. He spent a few days in Saigon before being flown to Can Tho to receive his assignment. He was to go to Cà Mau in An Xuyen Province and assigned to Advisory Team 80. His job was to gather intelligence about the enemy units and their activity. While on deployment, he traveled to many cities in Vietnam, including Vung Tau for in-country R&R. He also traveled outside of the country for R&R: Thailand in August 1970 and Australia in October 1970. Nearing the end of the year, he received orders to go back to the U.S. He went back the same way he came: first to Can Tho, then Saigon, Yokota, Anchorage, and finally San Francisco. After six weeks of leave, he reported to Fort Bragg, North Carolina and was assigned to a special forces unit where he gathered intelligence for a unit whose area of specialization was the Middle East. Hillmer finished his service in 1971. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d0d56568b45cab8eb390522f3a20cf72.mp4 5eadad01d8dd9b57618c1cd8180a5c89 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b7fd262bf18a6f95bc92a766dca4a30.pdf 6bd9de863bf895d66262a8dab9588dad PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Name of War: World War II Interviewee Name: Armond Hillock Length of Interview (00:23:06) (00:00:23)Pre-Enlistment  Background o Took part in World War II.  Education o After graduating high school, in 1940, he started work at a telephone company (Michigan Valley) as a truck driver in Port Huron, Michigan. o Went into service in January 1943. o Lived in Jetto, Michigan, north of Port Huron. Enlistment and Training  Why he joined o Drafted into the Army. o Knew he was going into Sigma Corps and waited until he was drafted into Camp Crowder, Missouri.  (00:02:14)Training o Would hold a stone in his left hand to remember which foot to step out with first when marching. o Did menial duties (cleaning latrines with toothbrushes.) o (00:03:03)Marches, firing ranges (Hillock was qualified as an expert rifleman.) o (00:03:56)Was at home when Pearl Harbor (Sunday, Dec. 7, 1941) happened, already a year of service, but was sick with the mumps. Active Duty  Campaign Background o Served with the Army in Europe.  Duties o Stringing Wire was his main job, connecting Headquarters. o Didn’t see much combat. o Lost many men in his outfit to land mines.  Battles o (00:05:28)Battle on Rhine River, once had a shell hit the barn his outfit was occupying.  Other experiences o Didn’t mind the food, K-rations. o Didn’t have any recreational activities, played cards mostly. o (00:07:12)Would write letters to keep in touch with his family o Wrote his brother and mother the most often. o Was in Luxembourg during one Christmas in his last year, had pork chops dropped from an airplane. (3 days worth) o Didn’t bring back many skills that could apply to civilian life. �o His sergeant could speak fluent German so he would go into houses to ask for quarter. o Collected some German Iron Crosses and an armband with the German Swastika and some medals pinned to it (1917); medals from WWI and WWII; a Luxembourg flag. (00:10:15) o Was once headquartered in a town called Straubing, Bavaria. (00:12:06) o Remembers the midnight he left from New York to Edinburgh, Scotland, in the Queen Elizabeth (33 knots, 3 ½ days) when leaving for the war; remembers coming back to New York, as well. After the Service (00:13:28)  Going Home o Was in Camp Atterbury, Indiana; took a train from New York. o Was processed, paid, and discharged there. o Was still in Europe when the war ended, on the border of Austria. (00:14:23) o Had breakfast with the Russian soldiers, good soldiers.  Adjusting to Home (00:15:05) o Got back home and went back to work the Michigan Valley Phone Company. o Had some friends who had been with him from Camp Crowder to New Jersey to New Desert in California. (all of Hillock’s service time)  Other experiences o Belongs to the American Legion (00:18:30) o During the war, German soldiers tried to surrender to Hillock’s outfit, his Sergeant sent them down the road to surrender, instead. (00:19:14) o Took two hours for the columns of German soldiers to pass. o Feels lucky he never got hurt during the war. (00:22:35) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hillock, Armond L. (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hillock, Armond L. Description An account of the resource Armond Hillock is a World War II veteran who served with the Sigma Corps within the U.S. Army from January 1943 to an undisclosed date. Hillock discusses his pre-enlistment, enlistment and training in the U.S. He briefly discusses where his active duty took him; among many places he served were France, Luxembourg, and Germany. In addition, he briefly describes his battle experience along the Rhine. Hillock concludes by sharing some final thoughts about his time in the service and what his time after the service involved. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Claflin, Amanda (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-03 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HillockA Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24efc9eb6291cc5e07de5cb27b76d4d3.mp4 4236eb314e43981fc352f40e3faa46b5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c5c8eda4a1fcbf98361360db671b817.pdf 1107c6ac2ca180196fe98e86c0c6a565 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Steven K. Hillock (28:00) Before the Service • Born on February 11, 1946 • Born in Clovis, NM (1:00) • Lived in Texas (1:15) • Farmed, raised cattle (1:15) The Navy • Joined the Navy when he was 17 years old (1:20) • Didn’t want to farm anymore (1:30) • Sent to Great Lakes, IL for boot camp (1:50) • Should’ve gone to San Diego for boot camp, but it was closed due to an outbreak of meningitis (1:55) • Very crowded (2:00) • Probably more afraid of failing and being sent home than anything else (2:40) • First day just passed out clothes and was assigned a barracks (3:20) • No special training (3:45) • Assigned to various ships throughout his career in the Navy (4:00) • Asked to be assigned to a gunboat in Vietnam, but it might’ve upset his superiors (4:30) • Was actually assigned to an icebreaker in Alaska (4:35) • Received a commendation from the Navy for helping a civilian ship during this time (5:20) • The work was usually very boring (6:30) US Army • Transferred to the Army after he got out of the Navy (6:35) • Went to Fort Bliss in Texas for boot camp (7:00) • Went to Fort McClellan in Alabama for Advanced Infantry Training (7:08) • Sent to Airborne School at Fort Benning in Georgia (7:30) • Broke his toes afterwards, preventing him from going to Vietnam initially (7:45) • Vietnam was cold, wet and dark (8:00) • Got in to a fight with a sergeant about being assigned to a leg unit, instead of an airborne unit (8:45) • Colonel stepped in, invited him to join the Tracers, a recon unit (9:00) • Tracers worked in 4 man teams (9:15) • Sent up to Forward Base 6, still with broken toes. Didn’t tell anybody about his toes because he didn’t want to be sent home (9:50) • First mission was rainy and muddy, high in the mountains (9:55) • Couldn’t stand up straight because it was so rainy and muddy. Slipped most of the time (10:15) �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • By the time they reached the bottom of the mountain, he had a fever of 106, but didn’t let them call for a medic (10:25) Fever broke the next day, never got sick again in Vietnam (10:30) Mostly wrote letters to his family. Got a letter once every couple of weeks (10:50) Didn’t eat most food on base, never got back to base in time (11:00) Mostly at LARP rations, sometimes traded for C rations (11:20) Had plenty of supplies (11:50) Usually wore Tiger fatigues, just picked out what fit you (12:00) Wasn’t a whole lot of difference between a lake back home and Vietnam (13:00) Set up traps back at the watering hole, just like in Vietnam (14:00) Always went in 4 man teams, never solo (14:45) Went out for 4 ½ days, would come back for a day, then go back out again (15:00) Had many skirmishes, but few battles (15:50) One battle in 1968 involved the whole battalion (16:00) Went in, and several companies got hit at the same time (16:30) On mission, setting up an ambush they saw Ron Ely, who played Tarzan on TV (17:25) Was upset because he ruined their ambush (17:30) Went the most places with the Navy: Japan, Philippines, Australia, Alaska, Okinawa, Germany, France and England (18:45) Went to help Alpha Company, and there was a man who was shot in the side (20:00) Kept screaming for someone to help (20:15) Went, under heavy fire to go get the guy, brought him to safety (21:00) A week later he got a letter from his mom, saying they had a prayer meeting for him at the exact time that happened (21:45) Most of the men he worked with he had no problems with (22:19) After the Military • Angry at the military because the military wouldn’t give him leave to see his hospitalized daughter (23:00) • Left the Army over the incident (23:20) • Worked for Warner Bros. (asphalt plant) moving heavy machinery (23:50) • Doesn’t really keep in touch with many people from the military except for 2 of them (24:00) • Did not join any veterans groups after the war (24:30) • End of video shows military history and where he served (28:17) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hillock, Steven (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hillock, Steven Description An account of the resource Steven Hillock initially joined the US Navy in 1963 to get out of farming. After his duty was up with the Navy, he joined the Army to fight in Vietnam. Initially trained as an airborne trooper, he joined the Tracers Recon unit. They fought in minor skirmishes, and took part in some battles. While he initially left the military very angry, he does not regret his time in the military. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource TenHauf, Dustin (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army United States. Navy Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-06 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HillockS Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29312cf47cfc019d01819361104f7f4b.mp4 0531884c66a6fb8a58a1a11f868a7dae https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d544660c4bff6458c6fe931d7cfb2c0.pdf 374fafa8486622cb46af8de2d4ebc93b PDF Text Text Hills, Frank Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Frank Hills Length of Interview: (1:12:28) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman Interviewer: We’re at the 2018 Ripcord Reunion and talking with Frank Hills of Suwanee, Georgia. Okay now to begin with give us some background on yourself and where and when were you born? I was born in Hartford, Connecticut, 1943. Interviewer: Okay, now did you grow up there or did you move around? I grew up through my senior year in college, I went– Excuse me, my senior year in high school, I went to the University of Iowa and people say “Why’d you go from Connecticut to Iowa?” Because I had an athletic scholarship and was about as far away from home as I could get. Interviewer: Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? (00:48) My mom was a school teacher, my dad was an engineer at Pratt & Whitney Aircraft in east Hartford, Connecticut. Interviewer: Okay, was he doing that during World War II or was he in service? No, he was in the good war, the big one, he was in the Pacific with the 11th Airborne Division. Interviewer: Okay, did he drop in the Philippines with them? He jumped on Corregidor. Interviewer: Okay, well people often don’t know we get a little bit of parachute work there, over there and he’s part of that. Alright, did he talk about that at all when you were a kid? �Hills, Frank Not much, in those days my parents were depression people who grew up in that time and when the war was over my dad came home and went to work. Interviewer: Okay, alright so what sport did you have a scholarship in? Football. Interviewer: Okay, Iowa football, alright and I don’t know was there kind of a culture shock going out to Iowa from Connecticut? In 1961 Connecticut was far different than it is today, very far different. I never had a car in high school and you never traveled too far from home, when you’re 18 years old it’s not too much of a culture shock cause there’s a lot of other 18 year old kids that are there in school. Interviewer: Alright, and so did you graduate on schedule in ‘65? I graduated in ‘66, playing sports. I didn't always take a full load so it took me an extra two semesters to get out. Interviewer: Alright, so did you actually play on Iowa’s football team? (2:34) Yes. Interviewer: Okay, and what position did you play? Defensive back. Interviewer: Okay, and how’d that go? I played, I didn’t go as a defensive back I went as a quarterback, but coach saw things different said “I’m gonna– I want to make you a defensive back.” So, that was fine. Interviewer: Alright, so you graduate in ‘66? Yeah. Interviewer: Now by this time there’s a war going on in Vietnam and the draft is ramping up quite a bit. Did you consider enlisting or did you have other plans? �Hills, Frank I went to law school and my dad called me, I had been in law school– My second semester and I got a phone call from my father and said “I’ve got a letter here from Selective Service.” I said “Well open it up.” Well that was my draft notice, what I did is I called the board and I asked them to give me an extension so I could finish the semester and they did. So when I got that I knew I was gonna go in the Army, I went down to a recruiter and I said “Look it, I got drafted but I have an extension. I want to enlist because I want to go to officer candidate school.” So– And this was Chicago– Interviewer: Where were you going to law school? I was going to Kent College of Law, part of Illinois Institute of Technology. So I took the tests, had an interview and they said “Okay when do you want to go in?” I said “Well I’ll go in in January as soon as I finish this semester.” And one thing led to another and I went in the Army in 1968. Interviewer: Okay, now at this point in time how much did you know about Vietnam? I knew some things, I knew where it was, I knew what was going on. The protests had not really started that much, I think you know what I’m talking about but it got ramped up after, I think it got ramped up about 1969. Interviewer: Well they were certainly in 1968, that’s the King and Kennedy assassinations and it’s the Democratic Convention if you were in Chicago at that point you’d have known that. (5:18) I was in Chicago when his honor was. Interviewer: Yes the mayor of– Yeah but then of course when they get the Democratic Convention in Chicago in the summer of ‘68, then things got pretty crazy as well but by then you’re on, you’re going off to training and elsewhere and Kent College of Law I mean that would– And I.I.T that would not be a place that would have been a real hot bed probably event of activity. No. Interviewer: Yeah and Iowa at that time when you were there probably not so much either. No. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: Yeah, okay so– Alright so you go, you had your year of law school now and now do you go through– You’ve enlisted in the Army, initially are you going in as an enlisted man at this point? I’m going in as an enlisted man, what it did when I enlisted and was accepted into OCS there was no break in service. So I went in, I went to Fort Polk, Louisiana for basic training, Fort Leonard Wood for advanced individual training, and then Fort Benning for six months of OCS training. Interviewer: Okay, so what was basic at Fort Polk like? The reason I went– I had a choice of where I wanted to go and I went in I could’ve gone to Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Dix, or Fort Polk. Well this was Chicago, it was winter time, I went to Fort Polk cause it was Louisiana it was a little warmer. So then when I was done with that they shipped me to Fort Leonard Wood. Interviewer: Right, okay but– Okay but what actually happens in basic down there when you were there? Usual basic, nothing of any significance I was just one of the, you know many people going through. Interviewer: Okay but physically what do you have to do? (7:05) I was in pretty good shape when I got there so there was nothing that I couldn’t handle. Interviewer: Okay so there’s physical training that you do, you’re marching around and that kind of stuff. What about– I mean a lot of people when they talk about basic they talk about the emphasis on discipline and on obeying orders and all that kind of thing. Now you were a little bit older going into that than a lot of the other guys. How did you deal with or handle that or how did the drill instructors deal with you? Well they made me a squad leader so since I had some training in college, you know they made me a squad leader since I was like three years older. I’d already graduated from college and there was a lot of 18 or 19 year old kids coming in, just the wet behind the ears, so they thought I could help them out a little. Interviewer: Okay, and basically how did the drill instructors treat the trainees? �Hills, Frank Probably wouldn’t– Probably they wouldn’t be able to do what they did at the time today, you know today it’s touchy-feely we don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings and times have changed. We’re talking 1968 and what are we? 2018? A long time ago, we don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings today. Interviewer: Alright, so there’s verbal abuse, I don’t know– Oh verbal abuse, yeah that was just normal depending upon your make up– Just rolled off my back, you know you have to know what they’re trying to do, don’t take it personally. Interviewer: Yeah, so did you have a little better feel for that than the younger guys? I think I did. Interviewer: Okay, alright but you were in good physical shape going in given your background and the rest of this, you can handle that kind of thing and you understood the game but– And the instructors didn’t get too perverse then? No. Interviewer: Sort of break people down, build them back up, that kind of thing. (9:05) They did that mostly yes. Interviewer: “That’s another level, okay alright now when you went to Fort Leonard Wood what was the focus of the AIT there? Engineering. We built bridges, we built a lot of bridges and we did a lot of that type of work, it– Harassment was not there, there was always some harassment but we worked every day. We went out in the field we did this, and we did that but a lot of engineering work so there was no harassment. You came in, you were tired and they left us alone, was completely different. Interviewer: Right, okay now how long did those training sessions go? Eight weeks for both. Interviewer: Okay, yeah that’s pretty much the standard at that point. Alright, and then go on then and you go directly from AIT then in OCS? I had a week off. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: A week off, okay. Then I showed up Fort Benning in June and it was hot. Interviewer: Alright, so describe what the OCS program consisted of. 26 weeks, you signed up for 26 weeks at a double time, you were always running. We started with about 235 candidates and I think we graduated anywhere from 155 to 160, a lot of drop outs, a lot of people quit but just the nature of the beast they couldn’t– The optic was to get rid of people if you couldn’t cut it, you’re out. I don’t– I mean I just went along with the, you know the system, don’t take anything serious. Interviewer: Alright, what specific skill set did they try to give you? At that time there was various OCS classes, there was artillery OCS at Fort Sill, engineering OCS at Fort Belvoir, Virginia– Let’s see, armored OCS at Fort Knox, infantry OCS at Fort Benning etc, etc. As we speak today there is one OCS it’s branch and material, when you’re done with OCS then you go to your basic branch, whatever that branch may be. So this was pretty much strictly infantry and that’s what we did, tactics, mortars, all types of weapons, a lot of field exercises. Interviewer: Okay, so map reading and that kind of thing. (11:57) Map reading, day, night, what have you. Interviewer: Okay, did they give you much by way of weapons training or did they leave that for the early levels? The 45 which was in, we fired that, we fired M-14s, we fired M-16s, we fired machine guns from the M-60 to the 50 cal. We fired mortars, we had to know how to adjust fire, we fired artillery pieces, know how to adjust fire. Interviewer: Okay, so you’re trained to call in artillery fire and that kind of thing? Yes. Interviewer: Okay, alright and what kinds of people did you have as instructors in Fort Benning? �Hills, Frank Most officers, captains– A lot of captains who had come back from Vietnam, they were the primary instructors. Interviewer: And how much of their experience in Vietnam did they share with you, not directly or? Not much, you know as far as one on one conversation, not much at all. Interviewer: Okay, so this is still kind of– It’s generic training on some level. It’s generic, there’s classroom and there’s field work every week. Interviewer: Okay, now you’re doing this in 1968 there was a reasonable expectation that most of the officers who got through that would go to Vietnam. Infantry OCS you’re going. Interviewer: Yeah, so did they have exercises specifically geared to Vietnam? (13:25) No– I don’t want to be emphatic on that, they did not have a lot but they said “This is what you need to know.” and they gave you small hints, but once you graduated you would’ve been assigned to some form of a division in the United States and you would’ve gone through various Vietnam scenarios. Interviewer: Okay, so somewhere along the line in principle somebody gets the training, it sometimes happens and sometimes doesn’t. Okay, alright so you make it through the 26 weeks, so now we’ve gotten basically to the end of ‘68 pretty much? Alright, so what’s your next step from there? Well what happened was I want to say maybe there was three weeks to go, a couple lieutenants came over with some dogs and they said “We’re looking for volunteers to join this program, Scout Dogs.” Now people say “Well what do scout dogs do?” The Scout Dog program they walk point for infantry units at the lowest level of the platoon and you had to go to jump school, you had to go to ranger school and then you had to go to scout dog school and if I’m not mistaken there was four of us in my class that put their hands up in the air. I said “I’m gonna try this.” You know they say don’t volunteer for anything, well I volunteered. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: Okay, so when do you start– So now you’ve gotta, it was jump school first then ranger school? Yup and then I signed in–-the Scout Dogs training was right there at Fort Benning so I never left. Interviewer: So you did jump school there, and a lot of Ranger schools there anyways. How long was the jump school? Three weeks. Interviewer: Okay, and what basically did that consist of? You’ve got Ground Week, you have Tower Week and then you jump out of an airplane. You make five jumps. Interviewer: Okay, explain what Tower Week is. Hopefully a lot of people have seen it on TV or some of the old shows; they have these towers that are 250 feet high, they bring you up in a parachute and they cut you loose, and parachute comes to the ground and you practice your parachute landing fall and you’re good to go. Interviewer: Now are you attached to anything from the tower that will catch you and keep you from… The parachute is. The parachute is attached. You know it’s–if I can describe it, it’s like an upside down calendar, you know? It’s upside down, the parachute goes up and then they cut you loose and you drift to the ground. Interviewer: So it’s about as safe as they can make it at that point. Yes. Not that you can’t get hurt, but during Ground Week you’re over and over and over again practicing parachute landing falls. Interviewer: Kind of jumping off of platforms or things like that? Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you got to the actual jumping out of airplanes part, did you enjoy that? (16:45) �Hills, Frank Yeah, as a matter of fact I did. There was nothing to it after–the army teaches you by rope, over and over and over again, so you know what’s gonna happen. It’s not like, I think, if you went to a skydiving club they’d give you an hour of instructions then send you up in an airplane. Well, I have two weeks of instruction. Interviewer: So by then you were ready to get it over with. Absolutely. Interviewer: Okay. Now, Ranger School is a little more elaborate than that, right? Yeah, it’s an endurance course. No sleep, small unit tactics, it just prepares you. Probably the best course there is. Prepares you for what to expect in Vietnam, it’s a great course. Interviewer: So you’re doing escape and evasion things, or just trying to operate? Given a mission and you’re just trying to operate? You’re given scenarios. Everyone is in charge at one time or another and that’s what they give you: practical, tactical exercises. Small unit. Interviewer: Now, do they do all of that in Benning or do they move you around? You got Fort Benning, you have Dahlonega—the mountain course, then Eglin Air Force Base, the wet course. Interviewer: The swamp course, okay. And all of those potentially resemble parts of what you might get in Vietnam depending on where you were. Absolutely. Interviewer: Okay, and the instructors there, were they rangers themselves? All of them. Interviewer: And how long was that? 12 weeks or? 8 weeks. Interviewer: 8 weeks, okay. �Hills, Frank Maybe nine, I mean, eight weeks is the course, I think maybe we were there maybe four days early. Interviewer: Okay, so through all of that and then Scout Dog School next? Then I was there at Fort Benning and came back and I went over to the Scout Dog School, where it was located. Interviewer: Now, the Scout Dog Program is something that people might have vaguely heard about but are not gonna know a whole lot about, so when you went to that training kind of take us through that, what you were doing there. Well first of all, as an officer I had a class—I was the class leader. But I did what the class did: I had a dog that was assigned to me, every student in the class had a dog assigned to them, and it takes a few days to get acclimated to the dog. And it was approximately 8 weeks, you go through and you just—the instructors were great. Most of them were all Vietnam veterans that came back. The Scout Dog Program, there were three kinds of dogs: scout dogs walked point for infantry units. There was a phrase that scout dogs had, “Early, silent warning.” They would let you know that something was not right. And when we got there—I’m jumping ahead—when we got to Vietnam we still trained over there, but we used Vietnamese. We would put them out and we’d take the dogs out and let them alert on the Vietnamese. That’s one type of dog program. We also had mine dogs that could detect explosives. We practiced with that all the time. And then I had tracker teams. They were assigned to me, I think I had 3 tracker teams, that’s three guys and a labrador. For instance, if there was an ambush and there was a blood trail, you wanted to follow it, bring in a tracker team. That’s how that worked. But the primary requirements for use were for scout dogs. (20:53) Interviewer: So when you were doing your training in the states was that for all kinds or was that just for the scout dogs? That was just for the scout dogs. Interviewer: Alright. So, were most of the trainees enlisted, then? All of them were. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: Okay, so they recruited you guys out of your OCS class basically to be leaders for these units. And then, did you go with the men you trained to Vietnam or did they reassign you at that point? Originally… Originally, when the scout dog platoons deployed, they deployed lock, stock and barrel. Handlers, dogs, company commander, what have you. They went lock, stock and barrel. But as you know, during the Vietnam War continued replacements were coming in, so to answer your question: no, I went over as a replacement. And the soldiers who were the dog handlers all volunteered for it. They weren’t drafted into that program, they had to volunteer for it. (22:00) Interviewer: Now, when did you actually then go to Vietnam? I went over in 1970. Interviewer: Roughly what month or time of year? I wanna say March, 1970. Interviewer: Okay, and did you stay in Vietnam a full year or did you come back early? I stayed a full year. Interviewer: Okay. Make sure I have that in notes. Okay, so early 1970, you’ve now been in the army for some time training, various kinds of places, now during all this training how much attention were you paying to the course of the Vietnam War? Well. I knew it was there, I knew I was going.You know, it was a foregone conclusion. If you were an infantry officer, graduated from OCS, you were going. Interviewer: Now, did you think about it politically at all? Whether or not it was a good idea or did you just stay out of that? Kinda stayed out. You know, TV at that time was not the way it is today, so you—what was it, the 6 o’clock news or 5 o’clock news? That was what you got. It’s not like 24/7 that we have today. Different time, different era. Interviewer: So, you could really kind of tune it out if you had other things to do. Absolutely. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, now you get to early 1970, you’re going to Vietnam, do you get a leave after dog school? Um… I had a two week leave. Now, I went over—I knew I was going—I went over specifically. I flew out of Travis Air Force Base, so I flew from Hartford, Connecticut to Travis Air Force Base in the San Francisco area. So, I got there and I spent a day there, and then they told me to “Come back at 5 o’clock tomorrow afternoon, your flight’s gonna go.” I came back and I remember it was Braniff, remember Braniff airlines? Well this was a nice big orange airplane, you can’t miss it, so. Anyway, flew to Vietnam, landed at Tan Son Nhut airport that was in Saigon and they took us to… I think it was the 90th replacement company, well when I got there I had a phone number to call. So I called the USRV dog detachment—United States and Republic of Vietnam dog detachment—I said, ‘Hey this is Lieutenant Hills, I’m here.” they said “We’ll be over in a couple hours to get’cha.” So I never really spent a night in the 90th replacement. They picked me up, I spent a week in Long Binh just getting somewhat acclimated to the climate. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there? Well… kinda smelled. There’s a smell about it, there’s a smell. It was hot, and it smelled. Not being derogatory, but there was a—I know you probably heard that from other people. Interviewer: Yeah. But I always ask, cause you never know. Alright, now, while you’re first there, I mean going from Tan Son Nhut to Long Binh or whatever did you pay any attention to the scenery or what the place looked like? Yes… I had see that—now, I’m gonna… a little sidelight. All the press—UPI, API, all the news people—hung around Saigon. So what you saw is they’d go out in the rice patties with the first cavalry division or what have you, they never wanted to venture too far out. So I think the American public had the perception that Vietnam was all rice paddies, which it wasn’t. It’s a beautiful country. But they just saw that Saigon area, and I think the first CAB was there and there was a couple other units that were there. Interviewer: Yeah, First Infantry Division, Ninth Division, things like that. CAB was off in some place else but, yeah. Well after a week at the dog training detachment, and just getting somewhat brought into the picture, they said “Okay, we’ve got an assignment for you.” I said okay, where is it? They said “You’re going to the 101st Airborne Division, third brigade.” That’s great, where is it? So, it couldn't get any farther north, if I got any farther north I would have been in North Vietnam. Took me to the airport, took me three changes of aircraft to get there, and I got there and �Hills, Frank somebody from the 58th Scout Dog Platoon picked me up. I never had to go through the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School, they brought me right to the unit and I started from there. Interviewer: Alright, now what was home base for the unit? Camp Evans. That was pretty far north, just south of the DMZ. Interviewer: It’s not all the way up the country but it’s north of way. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, and that was the Third Brigade’s one and so forth. Okay, what sort of reception do you get when you join a unit? Or what happens when you get there? Well, I got there, I just—you know, the typical signing in, make sure I sign the orders and what have ya. And then I was replacing a platoon leader who was rotating out, so I spent a week with him. And then he rotated out and there I was. I had a good First Sergeant, so it takes time. It takes time to get your feet wet and what have you. Interviewer: Now how helpful was that first week with the old guy there? You know it’s—it was somebody to turn to if you have questions. He was there to take my hand, how’s that sound? Lead me around. My boss was the S3 of the Third Brigade 101st Airborne Division. That was my boss. Interviewer: Now explain for a general audience, what does S3 refer to? S3 of a brigade, he was a brigade 3, he was a major. He was in charge of operations. S2 is intelligence, S3 does the operations. I, 58th Platoon, was one of his assets. He had the 58th Scout Dog Platoon, he had a Range Platoon that did the long range reconnaissance, he had a Rate of Reaction Force. These units all reported to him, of course he reported to the Brigade Commander. Interviewer: And who was the Brigade Commander at that point? There was a… well you’re asking me, I think it was Harrison. Interviewer: Probably not yet. There was a Colonel Bradley… �Hills, Frank No no, Colonel Bradley was a battalion commander. Interviewer: No, he was a brigade commander. Military historian, I’m sorry, but Bradley didn’t make a particular impression on you or he wasn’t there—you weren’t overlapping with him long enough for that to register? No, no, because Harrison… Interviewer: Because Harrison comes in not too long after you did. Because I had two, two brigade commanders. I had Ben Harrison and David Grange. David Grange went on to get 3 stars. I kind of—I think I was a Lieutenant when I met him. I just kind of stayed in the background, you know? Didn’t wanna open my mouth and put my foot in it. Interviewer: So when you get there, so March, 1970, April… What’s going on in the brigade at that point? What do they have you doing? Well, okay, now, to get a scout dog team they just have to request it, so every day myself or my platoon sergeant, if I wasn’t out in the field with one of my dog handlers and a dog, I had to go up to the brigade. I had to let the brigade 3 know how many teams I had out in the field and how many I had in waiting, and he wanted to know this. It also forced me to go to the—every day they had a brigade meeting and it let you know what was going on on the whole AO. I knew what was happening even though I stood in the back of the room, I got the big picture, which a lot of these platoon leaders in the field didn’t know what was going on. They were told “You go here or “You go there”, “This is what you’re gonna do, you’re gonna search this area.” I knew what was going on. I knew who was out there, I knew who was in contact. So, looking back it’s something that I was thankful for. Interviewer: Alright. Now, the point when you come in, this is the point when the operations that sort of become the Ripcord Campaign started to happen, the firebase is established in April and you have fighting in the area around that until the siege in July. Now, that kind of period—March, April, May—what kind of things would the scout dog units be doing and what were they finding? Well… They weren’t finding anything, but they were gonna. Lemme rephrase that: they were alerting on what was out there, the dogs don’t find anything but the platoons are out there maneuvering whatever AO that company is in. And again, as I’ve said before the dogs would give early silent warning there’s something there. Different terrain, very mountainous terrain I was in. Uphill, downhill, nothing was open. Was really tough terrain to operate in, not like the �Hills, Frank Delta, not like the troops sloshing through the waters. The mountains, very beautiful area—I don’t have any desire to go back but it’s picturesque. Interviewer: Now how soon before you were going out with the dog teams? Or were you doing that even in the first week? Probably about a month. Interviewer: And why did you go with them? Just to… One I’s felt as though I had to, Two I wanted to see what was going on out there. I wanted to see the actual dogs in operation. Different operating in the United States, different operating in training in Vietnam, so you’re out there. Where I was there was no good guys, there was all bad guys. It was Indian country1. Interviewer: So if they…That was pretty much anything that could be serious. If they threw an alert, normally there was something out there. There was an enemy soldier, or more than one. Interviewer: Now how dangerous was scout dog duty? Not the best position, that’s why it was all volunteer for these guys, they had to walk point. They’re out there in front of everybody and when a dog threw an alert, if you looked at the dog you could tell how strong it was. You better hit the ground. Don’t stand there and look around because something’s out there, you just learn from experience. Get down, get behind something. A lot of times—now, it's possible it could have been a boobie-trap out there—there’s a scent that remains. A dog could hit a boobie-trap accidentally, and that has happened too. But usually it's an asset for the platoons, so if you have the opportunity use it, use the dogs. You know, you hate to lose a dog but use it. It’ll save your life. Interviewer: Now, did you have a sense that the Vietnamese took the dogs seriously or would try to shoot them, or? Yeah. To answer your question, yeah. If they could shoot the dogs they would, they knew what they were doing. They knew what the dogs would do, so it’s not like it was a surprise to them. (35:22) 1 In the Vietnam war, a term used to describe unknown and dangerous territory inhabited by the Viet Cong or NVA. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: I guess some infantry guys will talk about how North Vietnamese will have priorities. You know you pick off the Officer, the Radioman, the Medic or Machinegunner and so forth. Were dogs particular targets or were they just big ‘might get shot at’ if they’re in the wrong place? You have to consider the type of terrain that you’re in. Again, if you’re down south and you’re out in the open, different story. Up in the northern part of south Vietnam on I Corps? Very mountainous. So, the troops weren’t necessarily out in the open all the time. They were fighting going uphill, downhill and what have ya. If the enemy had an ambush, a dog could usually alert on an ambush. Immediately you would know just by looking at the dog what type of alert it was, and if it was a strong alert, hit the ground. I’ll give you an example: I happened to be with a dog handler and we were out there and the dog threw an alert. I hit the ground, the dog handler hit the ground, grabbed his dog. The platoon leader came up and said “What the hell is going on?” and got shot. They opened up on him, just… I’m sorry about that. Don’t ask what’s goin’ on, if you get my point as far as things like that can happen. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how far afield would you wind up going? I mean, you’re not spending all your time at Camp Evans? Would you go out to fire bases? Yes. I wouldn’t stay on the firebase but I’ll just give an example: when it came to Ripcord the battalion commander Lieutenant Colonel Lucas sent word back that he wanted to see me. He wanted myself and a sergeant to come out and talk to him. What he wanted to do was he wanted to put dogs on the firebase and that’s not the dog’s mission, the dogs are not gonna tell you that. And I was a Lieutenant at the time and I basically told him in a nice way that “The dog is not gonna help you on the fire base. You’re in Indian Country and there’s smells all over the place, so the dog really not gonna be an asset to you because you know what’s out there. But your line units can have the dogs, your platoons and your companies can have the dogs, all I have to do is request them.” And he acquiesced. He was happy I came out and told him what they can do and can’t do. Interviewer: And was he expecting them to kind of just be on the perimeter of the fire base? Yeah. And that’s the last thing you needed was a dog running around out there. Interviewer: Did you form any particular impression of Lucas one way or another as an officer? �Hills, Frank He listened to me, but he asked for my opinion. I mean it’s not that I said “You can’t have it” I just told him it’s not gonna help him out. But it’s gonna help his units out there around Ripcord and the other hills over there. (39:05) Interviewer: Okay, now is this a period before the heavy bombardment on that hilltop? Because July was when it was really bad. Yeah, this was in June. Interviewer: Okay. And then all hell broke loose in July. Interviewer: Alright, now, when you start, you get some more intense firefights and things like that around Ripcord in July and different companies run into different kinds of problems. Were you sending dogs to them at that point or were they going to other places instead? I was sending the dogs to whoever requested them. Interviewer: Right. Now, they all had to be part of the third brigade, I wasn’t gonna necessarily send dogs to the first brigade because they had a scout dog platoon down there. So whoever wanted them, they could have them. And the teams normally went out for five days, dogs get tired. Interviewer: What did dog maintenance consist of? What do you have to do to look after the dogs? Well, we had—you’ve heard of army medics? We had vet techs. They were pretty good. We had a veterinarian in Phu Bai, we had in fact a couple veterinarians in Phu Bai. Now, the veterinarians, not only did they take care of our dogs which was a small part of their job, they were in charge of inspection of all food stuffs coming in and made sure that drinking water was okay. Like, today if you saw a TV and you saw Desert Storm or what have you and you saw the cases and cases of water that came in, well we didn’t have that. I don’t think we had designer water. Interviewer: No. �Hills, Frank Evian wasn’t developed then. So, they were responsible for water purification, they were responsible for anything that came in as far as food stuffs go. Interviewer: And Phu Bai is where the division headquarters was. You’ve got brigade headquarters, Camp Evans, and then Phu Bai is closer to Hue and— Camp Eagle. Interviewer: And Camp Eagle, yeah, and that’s where they are. But in the meantime you got enlisted men, vet techs who were actually taking care of the dogs. The dogs, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. What do they feed the dogs? Well, lemme tell you this, when a guy goes out in the field he’s carrying not only his own rations, he’s carrying dog food. And he’s carrying water. He’s carrying a load of stuff. We had— the dogs had, when they were in the rear, they had dry food. But out there they had little patties, little like hamburger patties, but you had—the dog had to have water too. Interviewer: Yeah. And that was very important, so these handlers are carrying a lot of water. A lot of water and dog food. And that’s five days worth of stuff, plus his stuff that he’s carrying. Interviewer: Did the dogs get tropical diseases? They could get heat stroke. You could tell, I mean the dogs, I’m gettin’ stopped. Sometimes the dog is worn out. He’s scrambling the way the soldiers are scrambling: if you’re going up a hill, he’s going up the hill, and the tireder he gets the less alert he’s gonna be. Just like a soldier, the tireder a soldier the less alert he is. Interviewer: Yeah. Alright, now, how long did you stay doing that? Did you spend a whole year in Vietnam doing that? (42:39) A whole year. A whole year. Interviewer: Okay, and then did the—different things happen sort of militarily in that period, you had intense fighting kind of through Ripcord and then it’s kind of quieter in a �Hills, Frank lot of the brigade area, and then after that a monsoon sets in other things. Was there a rhythm or a pattern to what you did with the dogs, or did it always seem the same? The monsoon season, when it’s… if my mind is correct, when you saw the monsoon season of Saigon, it rained every afternoon. When you’re in the mountains? All day long. It was a mist, it would rain. You’d get socked in. It was miserable, you never dried out, you know? You were always wet. Just a different—even though the country’s not that big, I Corps is completely different than 2 Corps. Or 3 Corps or 4 Corps, completely different. Interviewer: And then how did the monsoon then affect what you were doing? Well, didn’t affect me. I just did the same thing. As far as the units go, same thing. Out looking for the enemy. But Vietnamization was coming up—that word, you know, we were turning everything over to the south Vietnamese as fast as we could. Didn’t work out so good in the long run but that was the plan, let them take the bull by the horns. Interviewer: Okay, now did the south Vietnamese have dog units? Yes. There was one in fact, I had to go down there a number of times to help them out. They were located in the old capital way, in the inside… I guess they were okay, you know? I went down there, I watched them train. I don’t know how much they used them. You know, as I said the Vietnamization was taking place, the United States was pulling out and they were trying to turn over as much of the combat operations as they could to the Vietnamese. Interviewer: Yeah, so sort of less in the way for the American units to be doing in the field at that point. Well there aren’t big American offenses after that. No, after Ripcord—Ripcord was the biggest. I think you know, and I didn’t know it at the time, but they wanted to keep it quiet. They didn’t want this publicized cause we lost a lot of soldiers. 247 in a four month period, is that a correct number? Interviewer: I suspect that’s about right, yeah. I mean, the Cambodian operation which was started a little bit earlier but it was over a little bit earlier was a bigger thing and that got a lot of the news, but that was the one where they could present it as being essentially successful and Ripcord you couldn’t quite do that with. Right. Ripcord never made the papers. —Actually, it did. Interviewer: It did a little bit. (46:00) �Hills, Frank Cause my mother sent me a clipping saying, in fact this was the paper in Connecticut saying that the 101st abandoned a firebase, and that’s about all they said. Interviewer: Yeah, and that’s actually how it, to the extent that it appears in a lot of books about Vietnam, that’s about as much as most know of it. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay, now, so the… Now, what was your daily life like in Vietnam? How would you describe that? Because if you’re on the base, what happens day to day? Well, we had—breakfast was, if you’re on Camp Evans, we were not self-sufficient. One of the aviation units had to feed us, which was fine. And we would trudge over there and they would feed us, and then we came back and almost like stateside police call. Make sure, you know, clean the place up. I didn’t care whether the guys made their beds or not, isn’t like there’s bunk beds or cots, you know, that didn’t bother me, but if there’s trash pick it up. Then you take care of the dogs. Fresh water—most of the guys would take their dog and take them for a walk, groom them a little, what have you. I’d wait for the calls that come in, say “Hey, 1st of the 506 needs a dog team” or “They need two teams” and then I had a roster, or my first sergeant had a roster, who was up. Guy goes out in the field for five or six days, he goes to the bottom of the list. Just like anything was run, pretty uniform. (47:44) Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you—on the base, you’re there… was life on a base fundamentally different from being in the field? Yeah… when a guy came in, the next day he had to clean his equipment. He’d have to clean everything, he’d have to repack his rucksack, clean his weapon, get cleaned up himself. It was probably no different—the best thing about this was the guys got to come in. They didn’t have to spend 30 to 40 days out there. So they’re out five or six days, they’re coming in. The dog needed a break, and then they go to the bottom of the list and then the next guy up, the next team would go up and they’d call him in, and they’d go out. Interviewer: There are assorted stereotypes or things about kind of life on bases in Vietnam and a lot of them have to do with drug use, and were you aware of any of that going on around you or was it more noticeable there? It was there, I didn’t look for it. One of my sergeants, he got caught coming in with…I wanna say heroine? �Hills, Frank Interviewer: Could have been. Well first of all, I’m in my office, if you wanna call it an office, I’m just in there and CID comes in and they ask “Do we have your permission?” Of course I said yeah. You know, do what you need to do. Long story short? It cost him 6 months in a Long Binh jail. He didn’t get a dishonorable discharge but yeah, it was there. Interviewer: Okay. Were you aware of racial tensions? I was aware of it but I didn’t have any. There was no problem where I was, I didn’t have any. I wasn’t around any units that had it but it was there. (50:00) Interviewer: Well sometimes there’s stories about things going on, on bases where you have kind of groups of black soldiers who will take over certain areas or things like this, and that kind of thing. But that wasn’t something that you sort of witnessed? That wasn’t. I—If my recollection is correct, it really wasn’t a major problem with 3rd brigade 101st airborne division. Interviewer: Alright. Part of why I asked. Okay. Interviewer: Find out what happens there, okay. So you now, you’re getting—let’s see now, did you get an R&R while you were in Vietnam? I did. Interviewer: Okay. Where’d you go? Hawai’i. Interviewer: Okay. Mostly married guys went there. Yeah. Interviewer: Were you married at the time? �Hills, Frank At the time. Interviewer: Okay. And what was it like to be in Hawai’i after X amount of time in Vietnam? Well you knew you were goin’ back. So it took you a couple—you’re only gone for a week. So you just get acclimated and then its time to go back, so it’s… I don’t know if it was good or bad, you know? (51:01) Interviewer: How far into your tour had you gotten at that point? I wanna say six months. Interviewer: Okay. Six or seven months in I thought it was time to go. Interviewer: Alright. Now as your time in Vietnam wound down, did your duties change at all or did you just stay doing the same thing all the time? Nope, same. Interviewer: And then when it was time to go did you break in the new guy, or? I had a new guy come in. He was with me a couple weeks, didn’t take him long to get, you know, get his feet on the ground. Things were slowin’ down, though. Things were slowin’ down, he was only there a couple months when they closed everything down. Interviewer: Okay. Now, what kind of casualties did your unit take while you were leading it? When I was there I had a number of people wounded, one guy killed. And, uhm… Interviewer: And how many dog handlers did you have at the time? 28 to 32. Somewhere in that range. Interviewer: And how many might be out in the field at the same time? �Hills, Frank Let’s see… Normally? Maybe I had 10 to 12 teams out. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now, for a lot of people who wind up, kind of accidentally, even becoming officers in the Vietnam era—they do their tour, they do the minimum number of years they’re supposed to serve and then they’re out. When you got to the end of Vietnam, what did you do? I went back to the states. I stayed in, and actually I think it was a blessing that I stayed in. I could blend back into society gradually—that’s the problem with the Vietnam War in that they just turned people loose to go on home. Where you been a year? Go back to work, if that’s possible. Interviewer: At what point did you decide to re-up and stay in? I think when I got back I said “I’m gonna stay in.” (53:23) Interviewer: What assignment did you get when you came back? I actually got assigned—I went to Fort Dix, New Jersey. It was fine. It’s not the garden spot but it was fine. I was an instructor and it was enjoyable. Interviewer: Was it a drill instructor or we talkin scout dog instructor? No, no, I was an instructor in the weapons committee. Interviewer: Okay. Don’t ask. That’s just what the army saw fit having me do. Interviewer: Okay, and was the army encouraging you to stay in at that point? They weren’t discouraging me. But the army had—there was a lot of officers, so they were looking for ways to cut ‘em, and the best way was education. A lot of good people who didn’t have a college degree were rifted for no other works, huge reduction in force, but that was a criteria. Interviewer: So where in some officers, including some very good ones who were in the Ripcord campaign, were mustangs, they were meant to come up in the ranks. And they were actually gonna get demoted to Sergeant at that point, regardless of what they had done, and that sort of thing. And that happened to a lot of, a lot of captains— wound up �Hills, Frank being, Sergeants. Now you were a little different in the sense that you had the college degree, so do you think that separated you from that group? Put me in a different class. I mean, they were lookin’---you have to have criteria. How are we gonna separate this person from that person? And that was one of the criteria: education. Armys always been big in education, you gotta have the schools—you gotta punch your school ticket or education ticket. Interviewer: Okay. And so, how long did you have that assignment at Fort Dix? A year. Interviewer: When you come back, and now you’re at Fort Dix, when you’re in New Jersey, so you’re not far from New York, Philadelphia and things like that. And now the Vietnam war, the anti-war movement has certainly gotten big and kind of taken over, and things were getting kinda crazy. Were you more aware of that now than you had been before? Or was that still outside of your world? I paid attention to it. I’m trying to think of when, of course, Kissinger was going to Paris, that’s where they had the peace talks set up. When did the—When did Saigon fall? Interviewer: Saigon fell in ‘75. ‘75. Interviewer: April ‘75. Nixon announced ‘Peace with Honor’ in January of ‘73 but you had some varied bombing campaigns and things in ‘72 before that. And then when Nixon resigned, what, Ford’s hands were tied. He couldn’t supply them with aircraft or anything, we were done. Interviewer: Yup. Over with. Interviewer: Okay. Did you encounter any kind of hostility from civilians when you got back? People treating you differently because you were in Vietnam? No, no I was fortunate. My family, uncles and what have you, were all World War II veterans you know, the good war. I mean, I didn’t have any choice. I wasn't gonna go to Canada or �Hills, Frank anything, like that was never on my list. But I think a lot of people went… when, in the late 60’s they went? When the war—in 1965 who would have thought the war would have gone on that long? Interviewer: Yeah. Or gone the way that it did. Yeah, yeah. So a lot of that is really kind of on the fringes of your experience, you’ve got a job to do and you’re going and you’re doing it. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, and now by this time are you living in Fort Dix, for instance are you living on base, off base? No, no, I had an apartment off base. But that’s a military town. I can’t even think of the town Fort Dix was in, do you happen to know? Interviewer: No, I just think of it as Fort Dix, yeah. It wasn’t Bordentown was it? I don’t know. But it was a military town so, you know, there was acceptance. Interviewer: Mkay. No hostilities, it wasn’t San Francisco. Interviewer: Okay. And then what was your next assignment after Fort Dix? I went to the Special Forces Officer Course. Interviewer: And where was that done? Bragg. Interviewer: Okay, so Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And how does that compare with the Officer Infantry Training or the Ranger Training you had before? …A thinking man’s course. A thinking man’s course. You had to know what Special Forces did and John Wayne didn’t do them justice during his movie making, so. But uh, Special Forces— When we think of Special Forces today there’s so many: There’s Rangers, there’s SEALs… I can’t—I think the marines have a Special Forces course. It’s different, the Special Forces was set �Hills, Frank up to train indigenious personnel. Now can they fight? They can fight, but they need help. 12 people aren’t gonna fight anybody. Navy SEALs mission is a lot different than what a Special Forces A Team, and if you’re watching this tape get a book out and read what the Special Forces A Teams do. The best example was the movie that just came out this past year: the twelve men on horses? That’s what they do. They’re there to assist and train indigenous personnel. Not that they can’t fight, but they’re not gonna go kill Osama Bin Laden. Let the SEALs do that. Interviewer: And I think a lot of people tend to kind of think, you hear Special Forces, you tend to confuse that with a Navy SEAL type operations, of a commando operation where you’re sneaking in some places behind enemy lines. Special Forces, they lump it all together. They lump it all together. Part of Special Forces is Operational Detachment Delta. That’s equal to the SEAL Team 6. And of course Hollywood’s got ahold of that, too. Interviewer: But certainly in Vietnam there’s a lot of training indigenous people and they did it Laos as well, as of course since then they’ve done it a lot of different places, including Afghanistan and Iraq, so particularly in Afghanistan I expect but, yeah. Okay. And so, your job was essentially—were you training people or were you simply just part of an active unit or what were you doing? I was, well… I was part of an A Team for awhile. Which is probably the best assignment in the army. Then… you have to move on. You get promoted out and you could still be in Special Forces but you’re more in headquarters and what have ya. Interviewer: Did you go out in the field any place or did you do all your work in the US? I was mostly in the US. Interviewer: Okay. I mean, did you visit any place else that you’re gonna talk about? No, no, no. I didn’t personally. I didn’t go to South America, my time was pretty much in the US. Training, a lot of training, various scenarios that you run through but it was all in the US. I wish I could have gone but I didn’t, I just happened—that’s just the way the nature of the beast was. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and how long did you do that work? (1:01:17) 9 to 10 years in Special Forces Assignment, where I branch transferred SF from Infantry. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: Okay, now this—I’m just old-fashioned enough to be using tape and this tape is about up. (Screen fades to black while tape is replaced.) Okay, so you kept making out about 1983, you’ve kind of put in about 10 years with the Special Forces, how and why do you move on from there? At the time, promotion. You make Major—the slots for Major in SF are very small so, but I’m speaking about that time and era, now I’m not so sure. It’s a completely different—Special Operations is completely different. But at that time, Major, I was promoted out. I didn’t have a job, there was no slot for me, so I went back into the regular infantry. A lot of staff work. Interviewer: Okay. Now do you get, as you go through different rank levels you get army schooling of one kind or the other, right? Right. Advanced course, in fact I took the Infantry Advanced Course and then I did the Armor Advanced Course Correspondence, so I got those two advanced courses out of the way, then Command and General Staff College… and I did not do the War College, which I’m not sorry I didn’t do it. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, the—so talk a little bit then about the assignments when it happened. So you go from Special Forces, you get your training stuff, and then what assignment do you get after that? Well then I went back into the Infantry branch. From there I became an instructor at the Command and General Staff college. They had a new course called CASCU for Captains. Great course, like everything it fell by the wayside and they had something else that came up. Interviewer: Well what did that course consist of? A lot of practical, the practical work for Captains, male and female. And that’s when we had a lot of integration between the sexes, we didn’t separate. It was just a good, it was a course to teach you to do staff work. You know, not everyone is gonna lead the horses in the charge, somebody’s gotta take care of those horses. Somebody’s gotta buy ‘em food, make sure they’re well taken care of, and that’s what CASCU—preparing Captains for staff work. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, you mentioned having women officers in there. In the 70’s when they started opening more positions for women officers, opening up the surface academies and things like that, I mean, there was a lot of debate back and forth about the value of all that and in general as more women got integrated you got problems eventually with sexual harassment and other kinds of things happening. And different people having �Hills, Frank different views of that. From your perspective, how well did the integration in women work, or what were the ups and downs of that? I didn’t see a problem, but then I respected the women. Takes a special female person to make a career out of the military. I had all the respect in the world for them. There’s some smart women out there, they can do anything that the men can do, and I think that’s proven today. Sexual harrasment, I don’t recall it being prevalent. It probably was there, it probably was there, more so maybe in the enlisted ranks. (1:05:39) Interviewer: I think officers would sometimes, will report kinds, sometimes discrimination or prejudice. Some male officers would have a problem with it, others wouldn’t and so it just kinda depends on where you are. I think it depends upon your makeup, you know there was… I was a battalion commander and you know there’s always—I’d always have my head NCO which was a female, she’d come into my office and I’d say “Close the door,” you know, “Lets talk about this.” Well people say don’t do that, you’d better have somebody else in there. Well, I really wasn’t concerned. Maybe I should have been, but sometimes you wanna talk and you didn’t want other people to know what you’re talking about. Normally it was about soldiers, that’s what we’re talking about. And she was comfortable, good person, but that’s how I am. But other people, they'd have the door open, they’d have somebody sitting in there, so. I’m here, I’m not in jail. Interviewer: Yup, yup. Just behave like a civilized human being and it took care of itself. Okay, alright, and so, I guess, where were you stationed then after you did some—you taught your course for a while, and? Fort Bragg. Interviewer: Yeah, you were in Fort Bragg. Fort Jackson. Force Combat Quarters in Atlanta which doesn’t exist anymore, that’s Fort McPherson. That headquarters has moved to Fort Bragg, it’s there. Interviewer: So what does Force Com consist of, what was that? That’s Continental Forces of the United States. That’s a 4-star slot. My boss happened to be— my rater happened to be a civilian, but he was equal to a 3-start. It was a good assignment. Interviewer: Is a lot of that really sort of administrative and logistical? �Hills, Frank Yes. It was more staff. Or not more, 100% staff work. We staffed—when Desert Storm, the first, one?, we staffed that. We staffed that whole… all units were looking for bodies to fill, they were not rounded-out so we had to come up with all those bodies whether they came from the guard or the reserve or what have you. We had our hands full. Interviewer: Cause you’re having to mobilize units and send them overseas, and typically in peace time units are not kept at full strength. Yeah. Interviewer: And so now they need people in these slots if they’re going to function properly, so you not only take guard and reserve people, but then do you have to backfill some of them and replace some of them? Or does someone else do that? No, we didn’t backfill the guard and reserve cause they were going back to the guard and reserve. Temporary assignment for them. (1:08:48) Interviewer: Or rather, did you have guard and reserve people come in and replace fulltime, active duty people? Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay, alright. Now, so how far do you get in terms of advancing in rank? Colonel. Interviewer: Colonel. And when did you make Colonel? When? Interviewer: Yeah. Well I got out in ‘98… Not ‘98, I mean, I said ‘96. Interviewer: Alright, now why did you retire in ‘98? 30 years that’s, you know, that’s a young man’s game. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: Yeah. And I had some opportunities. Wasn’t gonna be a General, I never set out to be a General but I wasn’t gonna be a General, well that’s fine. But I had some business opportunities, so… and they worked out. Interviewer: So what did you wind up doing when you got out? I had a partner—I have a manufacturer’s rep firm. I’m in the oil and gas business. He retired four years ago so I have the business now. My wife wants me to retire but I don’t wanna retire (Hills laughs) I wanna work. I’m 75. I don’t wanna sit at home, I don’t wanna play golf every day. I mean I-- and I enjoy what I do, so that’s the reason I work. I don’t have to work but I enjoy it. Interviewer: And you wound up settling in North Georgia just cause you like that area? We always came back to Georgia, yeah. It’s just a good area. I’m in North Georgias, it could be anywhere. It could be Pennsylvania, it’s that nice, so you know I’m happy with Georgia. Do I wanna stay there the rest of my life? Eh. I don’t know. People say “Why don’t you go to Florida?” I wanna change my clothes. I wanna change my—you go to Florida, you don’t change your clothes. I think you know what I mean. I like—We have three seasons. We’ve got days of winter but we have 3 seasons, so. (1:11:00) Interviewer: Okay. Now, to look back now at that time that you spent in the service: what basic way—how do you really think that affected you or what did you take out of it? I think it was. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I wouldn’t trade Vietnam for anything. I wouldn’t wish it on…a lot a lot of people were affected by it. And… I didn’t expect this, but what has been so good about Desert Storm, Afghanistan and Iraq, people respect the soldiers. When they came back from Vietnam they were looked down upon. Didn’t bother me, there’s things that bother me and things that don’t bother me, but I felt sorry for some of those guys. They couldn’t adjust in the society. Maybe we all had PTSD. Probably all of us did, but I was able to assimilate back into society without any problem whatsoever. I didn’t need a parade but a parade probably would have helped. It's been so long, you know. But, you know, so be it. You can’t turn back the clock. Interviewer: Alright. Well the whole thing makes for pretty good story, and certainly an unusual one. Yeah. �Hills, Frank Interviewer: So thank you very much for taking the time to share it with me. Thank you Interviewer: Alright. (1:12:25) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HillsF2276V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hills, Frank Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10 Title A name given to the resource Hills, Francis (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Description An account of the resource Frank Hills was born in Hartford, Connecticut in 1943. Hills attended schooling in Connecticut through high school before graduating in 1961 and leaving for Iowa on a football scholarship, where he played as a defensive back on the college football team before graduating 2 semesters late in 1966. Following undergraduate school Hills attended Kent College of Law, a part of the Illinois Institute of Technology, before receiving his draft notice the second semester for the Vietnam War. After being granted an extension, he went to a recruiter to enlist and attend Officer Candidate School. Following the end of the semester, he was sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana to complete basic training, and then to Fort Leonard Wood for Advanced Individual Training in engineering for eight weeks. After a week off, Hills was then moved to Fort Bennington for Officer Candidate School: 26 weeks of infantry classes including map reading, tactics, mortars, artillery fire and field exercises. Three weeks before the end of the OCS program, Hills volunteered to be part of the Scout Dog Program, requiring him to attend Jump School, Ranger School, and Scout Dog School. In March 1970, Hills flew over to Vietnam, landing at Tan Son Nhut airport in Saigon and staying for a full year as part of the 58th Scout Dog Platoon in the 101st Airborne Division, 3rd Brigade at Camp Evans. He recalls scout dogs being imperative to detecting early signs of danger and giving ‘strong, silent warnings.’ Hills was aware of some racial tensions among units but had no issues himself. After a year of service, Hills returned from Vietnam and stayed in the military, taking on a new assignment in Fort Dix as an instructor on the Weapons Committee. Shortly after. he went to the Special Forces Officer Course and spent 10 years in Special Forces Assignment before transferring to Infantry and attending Command and General Staff College. During the integration of women officers in the 70’s, Hills was aware of tensions but had no issues with female officers. Hills was transferred to Force Combat Quarters in Atlanta where he helped staff Desert Storm with temporary-assignment reserve and guard, and in 1996 achieved the rank of Colonel. He retired in 1998 and started a manufacturer’s rep firm and says he has no plans to retire. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f63ed921bf37cffa2e3dcbe13879a9c3.jpg 44937858db7b4dd721da54f64c107494 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HimelwrightPaul Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1972 Title A name given to the resource Himelwright, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Himelwright, Mathematics Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng 1972s https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5433f5039206d237f7bb85a7a027df43.mp4 da810e75451199a656df4e8292a138a4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4cdfcb4a1081db4155ff45fc6a6b73b.pdf f57421e906c4a5c6b2be3a9490472646 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Raymond Hines Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa Interviewer: Alright we are talking today with Raymond Hines of South Carolina, the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, begin with some background on yourself, so to start with where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in, on the, April 6 1944 in Wellford South Carolina. Interviewer: Okay, and what part of the state is that in? Veteran: That’s in Spartanburg County, the upper, upper part of the state. Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Northwest part of the state. Interviewer: Okay, now did you grow up there, or did you move around? Veteran: I grew up in Spartanburg. Interviewer: Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: My father was a city policeman in Spartanburg. Interviewer: Alright, and then did you finish high school? Veteran: I did, in Spartanburg high school, 1962 Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do when you graduated? Veteran: I went to Spartanburg Virginia College for two years and then one year at the University of South Carolina. Interviewer: Alright, and did you finish college at that point? Veteran: I did not, I graduated with an associate degree from Junior College and then I went into engineering in the University of South Carolina, have a brother-in-law who is an engineer and I felt it would be a grand thing to do, learned when I got there that you needed to start in engineering if you were gonna be an engineer, and the other thing I learned besides how to drink beer was that I didn’t wanna be an engineer. �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: *laughs* Interviewer: Alright, so Veteran: Ended up on academic suspension. Interviewer: Mm-hmm. Veteran: That put me number one, number one draft pick, I was number one on the draft list for Spartanburg County. Interviewer: And when was that? Veteran: 1965 (2:00) Interviewer: Okay, alright, and so when did you actually then, so you get drafted and then once you get the draft notice, Veteran: I get the, I got the notice to come for a physical and of course I passed that. Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I talked to the recruiters, I had some college, I talked to the recruiters, and the only service where you could go to OCS without having a degree was, was the Army. So I went, I joined the Army, Okay, and when I was down there I did fairly well on my intel, on the intelligence test that they did and the recruiter for Army Security Agency came in and talked to us, and talked to me, and talked to the other guys but you had to sign it for four years, and I ended up doing that, and well you don’t end up going to Vietnam, Army Security Agency, and you’re pretty safe and it’s kinda like a sissy agency, but nevertheless that appealed to me at the time, I did that and then later I went, I went to OCS in field artillery and ended up in artillery. Interviewer: Alright, so to kinda back up here, so basically once you got the draft notice, Veteran: Right Interviewer: You kinda weighed your options and decided to go to ahead and enlist Veteran: Yes Interviewer: And enlist with the expectation that you go to officers’ candidates’ school once you finished your regular training? �Veteran: Well there was no expectation, it was with the hope I would get Army Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Because there was no expectation there, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: There was no guarantee either way, it was just the only service where I could, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: There was that opportunity. Interviewer: Okay Veteran: And the other services there was not that opportunity, so that’s the one I took where there was a least a pathway there. Interviewer: Alright so where did you go from basic training? Veteran: Basic training at Fort Jackson South Carolina. Interviewer: Okay Veteran: And then I went to Fort Devens Massachusetts for AIT and I was a Morse Intercept Operator. (4:02) Interviewer: Okay before we get there, a lot of people these days don’t really even knows what goes on in basic training, so what was basic training at Fort Jackson South Carolina like in the mid 1960s? Veteran: Oh, it’s just jolly fun I’ll tell you what. Basic training in South Carolina, it was in December, I reported in, signed in the first day of December and it was several days we were processing, it was the build-up for Vietnam, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And they were processing people in and we’d march around and they got us up till we got to the basic training thing and get us up at 4:00 in the morning and we’d have to clean up the barracks, clean everything up and fold up the mattresses and whatever else, take our stuff, our stuff in a bag, I had a little bag and I didn’t even take a coat it hadn’t been cold, I had a sweater turned out to be the coldest winter in South Carolina in a hundred years, then we walked around �and we sit on our bags in a line waiting for the mess hall to open, and then they took us down to, there was a processing unit today its right, its down from where the hospital is, but there was one big, big building down there where we were processed in and the finally we get to basic, our basic training company, and mine was on Fort Jackson Boulevard right now the highway goes through there, I-77 goes right through where our World War two barracks were, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The barracks were real interesting, they were two-story World War two barracks you could walk up to the windows and shake ‘em, we would put a blanket over the window to keep the draft out at night, guys would go out training, come back in, it was better on the second floor, I was on the first floor, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was better on the second floor because heat rises, but and then the heat ducts were on the ceiling anyway they were right down the middle of things the way they were designed, no insulation, you were, they weren’t designed for, for cold, (6:04) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They were designed for heat, and we didn’t have to worry about that I don’t imagine guys in the summertime did, but we didn’t have to worry about the heat, see guys come in and stand under a light bulb to try to get warm, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: As kind of an unusual thing, anyway all I can say is its typical training, we just took raw recruits, it was a draft army, I was in basic training with the draftees’ form Puerto Rico, Baltimore, as well as Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania was a big one, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Big group, and then other people I don’t know who else, trying to think who else was there not many, there were three or four guys that wanted to be pilots, helicopter pilots Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: One guy was Kelly, Kelly, no I won’t talk about Kelly. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Let’s leave Kelly out because Kelly was one of those guys that would tell you one thing, and then he was, he was the student who stood out in front of the formation and, and he �would tell us what to do and then the drill sergeant would show up out there and it wasn’t the right thing and Kelly would jump on us for not doing the right thing when he had just told us to do it. Interviewer: Hopefully Veteran: Yeah, there are lots of Kelly’s’ Okay Interviewer: Okay Veteran: So, if you hear me say it, that’s a Kelly, that’s what I’m thinking about. Interviewer: Alright, now so was it just physical training and marching and discipline and that kind of thing? Veteran: Pretty much yeah, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Bayonet training, rifle range, hand-to-hand combat, I, there was a, had a training accident doing hand-to-hand combat, (8:00) Veteran: The guy was supposed to pull his punch and he didn’t, and he, but, he hit me in the face with his hand from behind, anyway and my teeth went through my lip right here and came out so I had stitches right here before I even got out of basic training, Interviewer: Wow. Veteran: It really hasn’t caused me any problem, it did get me out of going to the gas chamber because I couldn’t, they didn’t think I could put the mask on, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But I got that letter so, Interviewer: Alright, and I guess it sounds like you would have had a real kind of ethnic mix of people in this training Veteran: We did Interviewer: Yeah cause by now the military’s integrated and so, Veteran: There was a, in today’s world we have to be careful how we think about race and say racial things okay, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yup Veteran: I grew up in a racial community, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I grew up in the Jim Crow era, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Alright, when we got to basic training, blacks were given a priority, okay, it was reverse integration, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We did have a black assistant drill sergeant who was a great guy, okay, and I wanna say that, and I didn’t have any problem with race, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But it was, everybody wasn’t equal Interviewer: Okay, and Veteran: And if you’re white, you certainly weren’t equal Interviewer: And where did the Puerto Ricans fit in? Veteran: In between, everywhere, we had, we had Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico , and we had Puerto Ricans from Baltimore, Baltimore. Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Baltimore, if I say it right, I can’t say it right, that makes sense, anyway, (10:00) Veteran: Just, they were just there, just it was just it was a mix and it was not, I really didn’t have any problem with it, I don’t today, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: And it, it, I’m, I only point it out because it was a fact that happened, Interviewer: Right �Veteran: Okay, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Not that, that, I feel badly about it, our drill sergeant was white, our assistant drill sergeant was black, and he was a real nice guy he was, don’t have anything to say bad about either one of them really, Interviewer: And, how easy was it for you to adjust to being in the Army? Veteran: Yeah, I don’t think we had a choice, I mean, you adjusted, Interviewer: Well there are, some people push back more than others and some people have a harder time Veteran: In our, in our company we had two guys, draftees from Pennsylvania and they called them flip and flop and one, they had a drill sergeant behind him the whole time yelling at him and then we’d go on a march and one of them would fall down and they’d say, don’t, don’t step over him, don’t step over him, but it’s a different world then you have today, okay, it wasn’t, they finally got out I think, they got, which was what their goal was, whether or not it was real or not I can’t say. Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They weren’t in my platoon, they were in a different platoon, but they were, Interviewer: Alright so how long did basic last? Veteran: Two months, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: At least two months. Interviewer: They come to eight weeks at some point, so yeah, alright so you get through that, so Veteran: I got through that, Interviewer: So, you gotten through your, okay now, Veteran: I got, I caught a cold before I got to basic training, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: We were, they were moving us around, part of the time they had us housed in tents, we’d go into those old barracks, (12:00) Veteran: And you get there about nine or ten o’clock at night and then you’d have to make your bed and shower, shave, and whatever you did and then you had to, they’d wake you up at four in the morning and go through the thing and, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You go through it, they finally put us in tents, and the tents were okay, they were warmer okay, we knew where we were and they had coal stoves and so hanging above the tents was a coal smoke from these, from these little pot-bellied heaters in the tents and I caught a cold, which I kept until I got to Fort Devens, I got to Fort Devens, got to Fort Devens and they had World War two barracks also but those were insulated and they had heat, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Okay, Interviewer: You’re in Boston now, Veteran: You’re in Boston and that’s where I learned how to goof off also when we were in, we got in, report in, we were in a casual company waiting on our classes to come up, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we went to formation, we go to formation, and first day we went as accident, we didn’t carry over boots so they had some people working out in the fields, we got, we ended up on that detail, being selected for that detail, a couple of us in the same barracks did, so we went back to get our over boots and heard the truck leave that was carrying us out to where we’re gonna be working and then we reported back to the acting sergeant and he just wanted us to disappear so he would have to, so we disappeared, he figured out if you, you figured out quickly that if your name wasn’t down, they didn’t have accountability of you, you home free, let’s say I learned how to work the system. Interviewer: Okay, so what did the actual training there consist of once that starts? Veteran: Well in training didn’t happen for a while that we were in transition for a while basically, we’re in a casual company and doing, ash and trash kind of things, (14:09) Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Alright, shoveling snow first time of my life I had that much snow to shovel, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They had a, that snowstorm we had us out there in a fenced in area where we couldn’t just leave, you couldn’t sneak off anyway, and me and this other guys we were shoveling snow, I went one way and he went the other and, from the middle, we did it really nice looked good, then they put us doing some other stuff like trying to shovel snow where they’ve been running trucks in and out all day, I mean you’re not gonna get that up come on, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then they put us back out there, called us back out there to shovel that same sidewalk again and they’ve been walking on it and it’d been snowing all day and they’ve been walking on it all day and we didn’t do as good a job that day, then it’s just kinda been time came and we had to go home, I mean what can I say. Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: No, I think overall, I did, and I think all the people I was with, we did it, those things we considered important we did well, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we didn’t consider them important, we could have just considered it make work, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We goofed off, Interviewer: Okay so your kind of getting, you’re learning the system or whatever for a while, Veteran: That’s right. Interviewer: But at a certain point your actual training program starts. Veteran: We had a training program, training program consists of, we were in old, those old barracks, World War two Barracks again for the training area, we had the company area and we had the training area, and so when you leave the training, the company area to go to the training area, and you had the instructors and they played tapes of Morse code, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: De-da, Alpha, De-da, Alpha, and you had to hit alpha, (16:00) �Veteran: So you had your hands on the typewriter, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We had a typewriter and we had a headset on, and the saying come over and you were, had the beginning you yell the letter, you repeated the sound and yelled the letter, okay teaching us to do, okay so then from there it got, we got after the first phase when you learned the alphabet, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You were just listening to code and typing it, at different speeds and speaking kept getting faster. Interviewer: And how long were you doing that? Veteran: Eight, maybe nine months, eight or nine, it was a long time. Interviewer: Now are they adding stuff to that or is it just constant repetition of just doing Morse code? Veteran: It was Morse code, you, and it didn’t, it wasn’t like they were sending you letters, anything that made sense, it was random. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because basically, and that was in the era of the Morse code and everything was, was encrypted, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Everything they sent and you would send out would be encrypted, Interviewer: Right Veteran: So, it didn’t make sense, you’re just listening and typing, and it got to be like a reflex you, you were daydreaming and doing that so, Interviewer: How many hours a day would you do that? Veteran: We’d start at eight to about three if you were on, you went to eight from, you had a lunch break, but you went started at eight I guess probably, I think it was eight until noon, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And you come back at one and go till if you were with your peer group, where you should be, you went home about three, if you weren’t you went home about five. Interviewer: And so how well did you do with this? Veteran: I passed it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That’s all I can say. Interviewer: Did you have to stay till five a lot? Or did you usually go to three? Veteran: It’s, it’s not like you’re, it’s not like something you actively learn, you almost passively learned this stuff, so I don’t even remember, (18:03) Interviewer: Okay Veteran: It’s just day to day you did what you had to do. Interviewer: It would seem like something that would just drive you crazy after a while that’s just this constant, Veteran: You know it, you would think it does, but it really didn’t, it’s kinda like music in a sense, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But you’re sitting there listening to it come across and you’re not actively thinking about it, it’s like driving a car. Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: And you can actively think about it if you need to you do, but most of the time you’re thinking about other things. Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: In between, its, Interviewer: Alright so what were you really being trained for once you have this skill what are you gonna do with it? �Veteran: Well what you do, had a listening post all over the world and you would go sit in a listening post with a radio or two radios and you would listen to conversation, to transmissions, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And they’re sending it by hand, its still hand done with a Morse, hand key code, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So, the other thing is that the Morse person sending the Morse has his own signature, the way they send Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You can pick out signatures, you can pick up one person from the other and that’s part of it, and a buddy of mine, I got, we applied for OCS, a buddy from North Carolina, anyway, I got selected for OCS and he didn’t and he went to Turkey and he was listening and he was able to pick up the same operator on different time zones on time, day time is over here and night time is over there and sometimes you use that as intel, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was basically Army intelligence, Interviewer: Right Veteran: Then, but that’s what I did. Interviewer: Okay, But I’ve never used it which is probably a good thing. (20:00) Interviewer: Alright so your, so when do you finish at Fort Devens then? Veteran: I reported in December of 66 to OCS Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Let me say this too, while I was there, what they did when we applied for OCS, is they put us into Delta Company, the training company, so most, most of the other companies were classes, I mean the classes would be together, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And but the people who were in, who applied for OCS got moved out of there into Delta Company, and we were in the Honor Guard, so in addition to training, we got to march in parades and do extra stuff, and shine boots more, and be inspected more, and shine floors and stuff like that, preparing us for OCS supposedly, but the main thing was we had a little scarf instead of a, so what it was called the Honor Guard and, Interviewer: I guess while you were at Fort Devens, I mean when you’re not training, I mean Veteran: Mm-hmm Interviewer: Could you go off the base and go into town, or do other stuff? Veteran: If you had a pass you did, if you were allowed a pass, and most of the time we were, town wasn’t very far away, wasn’t a very big town there, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: It wasn’t very big but, or could go into, to Boston but that was expensive, we didn’t make a lot of money, Interviewer: A lot of money okay, Veteran: Although I was gonna tell you too that, that Tommy Franks and I were PFCs together up there, if you read Franks’s book, he talks about Sam Long, Sam Long was our sergeant in charge of our, the honor guard, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, Alright Veteran: Anyway, I think he was actually a corporal but, but he was, he was God to us, he had that kind of control, and our sergeant major was named Scaglioni, big Italian guy. Interviewer: Alright, so now you go down to OCF, that’s Fort Benning Georgia? (22:00) Veteran: No, Fort Sill Oklahoma. Interviewer: Oh, Fort Sill Oklahoma, you were in artillery OCS. Veteran: That’s correct Interviewer: Okay so you’re at Fort Sill, Veteran: Now having said that, and what you just said, makes me think you’ve been in, doing infantry guys and infantry guys tend to leave out the rest of us, especially artillery. �Interviewer: Well I’ve talked to artillery guys too, I just had to back up and remember but, Veteran: That’s alright Interviewer: But, but I talked to, but there are more infantry than there are artillery, Veteran: Definitely more, well let me tell you what, when I ended up being rifted [usually “riffed”: demoted when fewer officers were needed], there were more artillery guys rifted than there were infantry guys, they ended up in artillery with a gap in your groups because of the rift, okay, but whatever that’s worth, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Not much but, Interviewer: Alright so off to Fort Sill with you, Veteran: Alright were in Fort Sill, Interviewer: Fort Sill Veteran: Got into Fort sill, let me think about that one for a minute, I can’t remember how I got there, we are in the, called the Robinson barracks, but Robinson barracks was an area not a single barracks, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: At least not when I was there, and then they, they, it was, you started out, it was what six months long, you started out as they would give you a hard time, under-class, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Middle-class, upper-class, they had it divided into three, three groups, upperclassmen had like horseshoes on their heels, on the bottoms of their heels so they click when they walked, you watched, you watched out for upperclassmen, typical stuff just a lot of harassment, a lot of push-ups, you just do it okay, I mean just do it and go on with life, Interviewer: So, could the upperclassmen tell you to do push-ups (24:01) Veteran: Yes Interviewer: or things like that? �Veteran: Middle-classmen could tell you to do push-ups, and I, but they were really there for guide, to guide us and help us, and then you had a, a faculty officer who advised ya and told you things, don’t think I got much out of him but that’s beside the point, Interviewer: Did you ever have a lot of classroom work? Veteran: A lot, that was mostly classroom, so you had the company area and that kind of stuff to shine ya shoes and whatever, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then you had classes, and the classes were very much like classes except you, our gunnery professor, I remember him throwing chalk at people when they give him the wrong answer but other than that it was pretty much the same, he was a good guy to, he was, heck of a guy. Interviewer: So, it was a lot of math and calculation for, Veteran: Yup Interviewer: Like trajectories? Veteran: We had, we had health and survey, you had to learn survey, that was a biggie, gunnery, you know where you figure, where you calculate and how you do this laying the firing battery, how you lay the battery, and aimon circle is what we used to lay it with, and the guns we went through the guns, and the gun positions, we went through maintenance, the maintenance stuff went through that, and at that time the maintenance well, didn’t have a problem in, with that there, and they didn’t have a problem, the Army at that time had a maintenance problem and the maintenance problem was that they had a maintenance system that they bought into, there was more work than doing the maintenance, okay, and they should have taken it all out and thrown them away, and start over again, and maintenance warrants, warrant officers were really glorified sergeants, (26:02) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Now today you would find warrant officers throughout the military, Army, Navy, all of them I think have warrant officers, and they’ve, they changed that status, but until more modern times, you’d say warrant officer and I’d say poo okay, except for the pilots, the pilots were also warrant officers, because most of them were motor sergeants, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But, I’ll talk about that later, but that’s after Vietnam when I was in Germany for instance, �Interviewer: Okay, alright so Veteran: Alright yeah, go ahead and get me back on, on track. Interviewer: Yeah, we’ll go, okay yeah so just kinda talk about the sort of curriculum or whatever, Veteran: Am I ok, I’m wiggling around my chair so, Interviewer: You’re fine, you’re all in the shots so Veteran: Okay Interviewer: No problem with that, so we kind of going through the curriculum I guess of the artillery OCS Veteran: Yeah you had to learn it, you had to learn tactics, you had to learn how to give the fiveparagraph field order, you had to, all the artillery stuff, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Survey, surveys a biggie, Surveys a biggie because we operate, that allowed us being on a survey grid, allowed you to coordinate artillery from different units in different places, Interviewer: Right Veteran: And then the gunnery, kamo, you had to learn it all, what you do if your track breaks, Interviewer: Have to explain that Veteran: Well if the track breaks, what do, what’d you gotta do Interviewer: If the track breaks, Veteran: Yeah, the track on, if you have a, a mechanized vehicle, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And you have, you’re out there on tracks, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: And if the track breaks, and they do break sometimes you gotta go in and repair, somebody’s got to do it, �(28:01) Veteran: So we didn’t actually do it, we supervised it Interviewer: Right Veteran: Stand there Interviewer: Because some of the artillery was self-propelled, Veteran: Some was, Interviewer: And so that would have tracks, and did you also have vehicles that would tow guns that were tracked, or was that not something you had? Veteran: No, I don’t think there were any, any tracked to any, track vehicles other than some of the howitzers Interviewer: Alright Veteran: And then we had towed guns that were towed but, mostly by truck, Interviewer: Mm-hmm alright and then did you spend time out in the field like with, on a firing range, with, actualing firing guns? Veteran: Yes, we did, you did every position multiple times and you were forward observer and you were bi-direction officer and you, you fulfilled the role of, in almost every position, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, okay so how long did this school last? Veteran: It was, let me see, we, I graduated when it started in December, graduated in May the 29th. Interviewer: Okay so you’ve now been in, in the Army almost a year and a half at this point, Veteran: That’s right, Interviewer: Okay, and having completed that, now what happens to you? Veteran: Hey I’m a second lieutenant, and I went, I was selected because of my academic score, now you have to remember, I came from my, my father was a city policeman in Spartanburg South Carolina, okay Interviewer: Okay Veteran: We didn’t really have any, any connections anywhere, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: One of my classmates had connections somewhere and I never have figured out where or who, I think he was a spy maybe, yeah, I don’t know, but he had connections. And Interviewer: So, you said, Veteran: The other thing I was very shy, since then I have kissed the Blarney stone and I can talk at into an item, but at that time I was very shy, (30:00) Veteran: And so I wasn’t terribly outspoken but, we were going to graduation and as I came up to get my certificate, the officer they brought in says well how does it feel to be the number one academically, that’s the first time I knew I was number one academic, I said no you must be talking about Haynes this other guy, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But it wasn’t, it was me, alright Interviewer: Alright Veteran: So, I didn’t know that, but I was, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Number one academically and, I was selected for Air Defense at that time the branches were together, Army and Air Defense were one branch, so I went into, I went to Fort Bliss Texas to learn about homing all the way killer missiles Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Hawk, Interviewer: Hawk Missiles okay, Veteran: Hawk Missiles, 33 kilometers range, anyway and then I went to, I have to grin because I’m sitting there thinking about, you have, in artillery you have to shoot move and communicate, those are the three things that you do alright, and Hawk missiles, we have the same mission, shoot move and communicate, we could shoot I couldn’t guarantee we could communicate or, and we should couldn’t move, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Alright but that’s a different story, that was in Germany afterwards, anyway I went to, went to Fort Bliss and I went to Germany, Interviewer: How long were you in Fort Bliss? Veteran: Two months maybe Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Wasn’t very long Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright and then Germany Veteran: And Germany and I was in Wurzburg Germany, I was with six for the fift-, I think I told you 54th, (32:00) Veteran: But I think its 6th of the 52nd , Bravo Battery, 6th of the 52nd and we were in housing was in Wurzburg, but we were in, was an airfield just north of there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Can’t think of the name of the town, I was up there and why I say that is because we got there and all the priority had been going to Vietnam, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: this was not a division asset, this was a higher-level asset Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: and their vehicles wouldn’t move, the highest you could order any parts was a 12, which meant you never got anything, no kidding, I mean you’re protecting the entire area, it’s like it’s like you prioritize the local sheriff instead of the FBI, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, different story, and it’s a pet peeve, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But I got ended up being, motor officer dealing with things and it just didn’t work, the other thing is and your trying to align things, it was electronic, everything was electronic, everything was subject to the weather, we were, the weather was terrible, the whole time I was there, I mean when I got there they told me, they said we had summer on Wednesday this year so �the next year or next spring, here comes, we had a week of beautiful weather in April, it was perfect spring weather in April and that was summer, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, and in Germany things don’t work well in cold, electronics don’t work well in the cold, and we had statuses, we had different statuses with the Hawks and if you were on a five minute status, the highest priority we had was five minute status, and you had to have missiles ready to launch, (34:05) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Lit going in five minutes, you called and five minutes later you had to be able to launch, and that was a tough status to maintain, especially in the middle of the night in the cold, and most of the troops you had were rejects form the other, the other Army, Interviewer: Alright well did you have some people with, with technical knowledge and specialization? I mean was there some kind of core of people who were competent or was this just a place where, Veteran: We had, Interviewer: People wound up? Veteran: No, we had people who were, who worked on missiles, we had warrant officers who worked on missiles, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And these warrant officers were probably the best that I saw, they were definitely better that motor warrants, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Because motor warrants tended to be, sergeants Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, and I don’t mean to be ugly about it that’s just the way I see them, anyway, but so they knew more, the whole thing was just kind of, to make a long story short, about this, when they separated the branches, they separated air defense from field artillery in Germany I went with field artillery, I think I was the only one, but I did, I had enough of ‘em Interviewer: Mm-hmm, well how long were you with air defense? �Veteran: Two years. Interviewer: Okay now what was life in Germany like? Outside of the job. Veteran: Well, truth of the matter it wasn’t much outside of the job, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Okay, Interviewer: Did you not go out, go off the base much or? Veteran: I didn’t get off the base and I didn’t get off the air base very much at all, okay, you, I, I was on, you had to have an officer on the, on the site (36:03) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We had a barracks down below, down at, by the river, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we had the site up on the hill, and my job was up on the hill okay, and we had three, no four officers, should have had four officers and two warrant officers, so we had battey commander and an XO and then two other officers, okay and we lost, we only had four, they moved people around and we ended up with, with battery commander, XO, and me for a long time and then they finally got another one, but the XO says I gotta be down here, well you can’t leave, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You’re stuck on that mountaintop, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: You got, somebody’s gotta be there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then the other thing would happen when, and some, they would pull night duty but then they wanted to talk about things like more, like what’s happening with the motor stuff and you’d end up leaving late, it was a nightmare for me, I, I, if you told me I had to do that again I tell you, there’s no way, I’d go to Vietnam twice before I did that, �Interviewer: Okay so basically you were, you were working and sleeping and that was maybe about it? Or not that much sleeping? Veteran: That’s right, I wasn’t off very much, I got off, I remember it well but I got off for Thanksgiving, okay, in Wurzburg Germany because my wife was, we were newly married, I got married right after I got out of OCS and we went, we went to a pet shop and bought a puppy alright, that’s why I remember I got off for thanksgiving, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I hated that Interviewer: Now did you live on the base or off it? Veteran: I lived on the base, but it wasn’t, not, not where I stayed, (38:01) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Now where I worked, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: You had to go down the hill, down the river, through town and up on the other hill, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was, what’s the name of the barracks I can’t remember the name of the barracks, the, Third Division, the Rock of The Marne, what is it, Third Division? Interviewer: Could be Veteran: Yeah, their headquarters was over there Interviewer: Right Veteran: And that’s where our barracks, that’s where our quarters were Interviewer: Okay now could your wife stay with you or did she have to be in town or what was, Veteran: She was there, she was Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Over in our apartment, �Interviewer: Okay, okay so you had, there were basically married officers’ quarters or something Veteran: Yes Interviewer: Like that Veteran: There were, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Started out on the economy and we were in upstairs of a German house for a while and then we went into temporary quarters for a while and then permanent quarters, then they decided to move, change that particular building to NCO quarters and we moved again and all this was going on at the same time so it was kind of, nonsense Interviewer: Yeah so what was lifelike for your wife at that point? Veteran: Not very good, I wouldn’t think it was very good Interviewer: But did she have a job or did she Veteran: No, she didn’t have a job, she could drive, and she had a lot of free time cause I wasn’t there, I don’t know, you know I, I Interviewer: So how long in total was your tour in Germany that time? That was, was it three years or did you just do Veteran: Well I was there and then they transferred me to 69th group, which was also there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay and I was there for, when did I leave, let me think for a second, I was there until I got orders for, for Vietnam Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Then I went back through Fort Sill for a month, probably had a month’s leave, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (40:04) Veteran: And I went back anyway so its several months there, Interviewer: Okay so when did you leave Germany then? �Veteran: That’s what I was trying to think it was, that was a, ’69, it was in, it was 29, Interviewer: Sort of early ’69? Veteran: Early ‘69 Interviewer: Okay, alright so you go back, Veteran: Well yeah, my son was, my son, my son had to be a month old, he was born in February, so it was March of ’69 Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Or April, around March I think, Interviewer: Alright and so now you got orders for Vietnam, Veteran: Yup Interviewer: So, where does your wife go? Veteran: We bought a house and during the leave time we bought a house, she went in with her, her parents while we were doing that we stayed with her parents or my parents back and forth, they’re both in Spartanburg and then she had the house, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: She had a lot to deal with, with the house and no furniture and all that stuff and, and I’m on my way to Vietnam, I’m, yep Interviewer: Alright now when you went through Fort Sill, did they do anything for you to prepare you for Vietnam or? Veteran: That was the purpose of what they were doing and we had some things, we’d go out, they had a, a firebase laid out on the ranges and, so a lot of the guys that were through there had been to Vietnam already, some had and they had comments about the way the firebases were laid out, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Just took it all in I mean what can you say we, we shot and it was the first time I shot an M16, they’d go out there to the range and they had some enlisted guys out there shooting and they left their rifles there and we got down and shot two magazines full, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And that was it, I’ve been trained in basic training on the M14, Interviewer: Right Veteran: Okay so I was familiar with that one but the M16 I wasn’t, (42:00) Veteran: And so then I get to Vietnam and I’m issued an M16, and I was the senior, I was the first lieutenant and I was a senior first lieutenant, actually should’ve made captain the day I got there but, it didn’t catch up with me till later Interviewer: Okay Veteran: So anyway, they, I remember it well, having to carry the M16 to my, my M16 was dirty, I didn’t, didn’t know how to deal with it, didn’t know how to clean it, one of the guys, I was doing something and I asked him to hold it and he cleaned it for me, said sorry this was awfully dirty so I don’t know how to, so he showed it to me, showed me one of, one of you know 18 year old kid and he showed me how to do it, and after that I cleaned it every day, and I cleaned my ammunition every other day, cause I didn’t want it jamming, Interviewer: Okay but that part was after you got to Vietnam, right? Veteran: After I got to Vietnam Interviewer: Okay Veteran: That was while we were in country trying, go ahead Interviewer: Okay so were gonna go back, so you have your or-, Vietnam orientation course or whatever, Veteran: Right Interviewer: At Fort Sill and, Veteran: Right Interviewer: That kind of thing and you experimented with the M16, Veteran: Then I had to leave and Interviewer: Yup �Veteran: Then I, so I left from, I can’t remember the date, but I left from Greenville Spartanburg and flew to Atlanta, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And in Atlanta we changed planes, got on the right plane, there was a, another lieutenant, and there was a warrant officer there who were going to the same place, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Going to, Oakland Army Airfield, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: So it turns out the lieutenant was reporting in early, and we didn’t know that at the time he was flying but we flew, flew out there and they, the plane was delayed, they were working on the plane, I remember it still because, my sister lived in Atlanta and, in Atlanta area and she came down to the airport and in those days they let her come in, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: She came in and we talked, and we talk and then she’d go out and then she’d come back in and I kept wanting to go and just, I’ve already committed myself psychologically, let’s just get this thing over with, (44:01) Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: And, finally we took off, we, we took off at three, three o’clock, and we got there a three o’clock, and that’s the only time I’ve made, I don’t know how fast we were flying, they said we had a tailwind and they I don’t know if they have speed limits in the air or not, but I’ve never had, I’ve never made that trip that fast again, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Okay, but I remember we left at three and we got there at three and you got the threehour difference so, Interviewer: Mm-hmm right, yeah because I think in that area three hours from Chicago to the west coast was good, so from Atlanta would be that much better, Veteran: Right Interviewer: Okay, Alright so you go, so you’re in, you’re processing out of Oakland, �Veteran: Yep and we get, so we get, get into the airport and we go, well not to Oakland we’re getting out of the airport and we go, you had to walk two blocks and we saw the, the little Berkeley girls, don’t go, don’t go, all that stuff so but we go and we get on a bus, and the bus goes takes us out there and as you’re going you see Alcatraz off in the, in the bay out there and we go over to, to Oakland and report in and, what’s his name, anyway, the warrant officer and I went to the officers club and had a surf-and-turf, came back, had to report in I think at 8:00 we report in and we get seated and we fly, fly first to Alaska, I think it was Fairbanks, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And why we went to Alaska, I have no idea, Interviewer: Well a lot of them went through Anchorage, Veteran: Maybe its Anchorage, Interviewer: That’s more, a little farther south and on the coast, Veteran: Maybe its Anchorage, Interviewer: Yeah cause it’s the, the northern circle, its shorter Veteran: It probably was Anchorage, I don’t know we didn’t get out Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You could see snow out there, out the window but they didn’t let us out, something went on up front, and in the first-class section I don’t know who was in the first-class section, but I wasn’t (46:00) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I know that, anyway we go and then flew from there to Hawaii, and I think he name was Al it seems like, anyway he kept talking about Mai Tai’s, and I never had a Mai Tai, so we were gonna get Mai Tai’s and oh we got to Hawaii at 3:00 in the morning, and bars were all closed so we didn’t get any Mai Tai’s, and we flew, I think we stopped again, I’m thinking we stopped, we either stopped on Okinawa or Guam, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I can’t remember which one, I mean Guam was, I can’t remember, we stopped on Okinawa or Guam and we did get out of the aircraft but we couldn’t take pictures of the flight line because they’re active, I didn’t know we could take pictures of the flight line, well we �couldn’t, we were confined into this little area and it was hot and they put us back on the plane and we went to Vietnam, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and where did you land in Vietnam? Veteran: Tonsonut Interviewer: Okay that’s outside of Saigon, alright, what’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there? Veteran: Alright, I come from Germany and then come through the states, and come through Fort Sill, and it’s still springtime, I’m not really acclimatized to hot weather, you think about Germany where you can wear a coat every day, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And not feel uncomfortable, first thing was the heat, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So they roll ahead, these roll upstairs that came in and the first thing they open the doors and the heat just comes in, whoosh, that’s the first thing, then the stink it smelled like, and you don’t notice it so much anymore cause they built in a lot of the marshes around our beaches, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It used to be like when we’d go to Myrtle Beach you get down near the coast you had that rotten vegetation smell, (48:04) Veteran: I mean again they filled in a lot of those and they have condominiums and stuff in there now so you don’t have that smell but, that’s what it was like, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, that’s the closest I can come to describing it, but it was a distinct odor, and the other thing about that, later you got used to that and it didn’t bother you, you weren’t so much aware of it but you still could smell the villages and the people, villages you could, was a different smell, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But that hit you, and instantly you were wet, we had to walk 100 meters, and have a formation 100 meters away from the plane roughly, and you thought you were gonna die from breathing the hot air coming in your lungs and I was constantly, I was wet, totally, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Sweating, and that little walking struggling with my duffel bag anyway, then they put us, put us on I can’t remember, buses, put us on buses, and we went to, Interviewer: Usually its Long Binh or Bien Hoa, Veteran: That was at, Tan Sonh Nhut was right by Bien Hoa, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: We went to Long Binh, to the processing company, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And these buses had the windows, they had, grates over the windows, and the glass was mostly knocked out, they’ve been in rock fights I reckon, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t know, anyway, but we made it over there alright, went to the replacement company and they did this and they did that, main thing we do is went into the officer’s club and drank beer, Interviewer: Right, now did you have orders yet for a particular unit or? Veteran: No Interviewer: Were you gonna get those, Veteran: That’s where I got them, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: They gave us our clothes, we had some briefings I don’t remember much what, like I say most of the things was, (50:01) Veteran: Most of the officers went to the house just to drink beer Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And it was, we got two pair of boots and, four sets of uniforms, whatever else we got I don’t remember, don’t remember, and then, hell I remember what they gave me, because I �almost lost it, anyway, we moved us then to the, next day, moved us to Bien Hoa, which was the rear area for the 101st at that time, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we had P-training, country training and basically it was to allow you to acclimatize to the area, but they also had some other things, they had some displaces booby traps and different things, scenarios and, about ambushes and stuff like that, Interviewer: Did they teach you anything about the local culture or how to behave there or what to stay away from? Veteran: No Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Don’t remember it, Interviewer: Alright Veteran: If they did, I don’t remember it, Interviewer: Alright Veteran: Having said that, it would have been a waste of time, frankly for 101st it was a waste of time, most of us anyway Interviewer: Because 101st wasn’t operating in populated areas or? Veteran: No, we weren’t, most, well there were a few units that were, but I never was, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, I don’t remember anything, Interviewer: Okay, just asking Veteran: If they did, I forgot it but, Interviewer: Alright, Veteran: They taught us how to shoot M16, and I remember that well, I remember we were, they taught us the point and shoot method, it was a NCO, this bug black NCO from Fort Benning and I don’t know if he developed it, but he was the one that instructed us, and he was showing us how to shot, basically M16 is a straight line, the whole thing comes back in a straight line, so all you do is, you’re used to pointing things, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: you grab, the front grip and your rifle and you point and pull the trigger, and where you’re pointing is where its gonna go, it’s pretty accurate, really for close shooting its very accurate, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: and he talked, we had to think about shooting laying down and we did it in the daytime, we did it in the night, they threw, we threw hand grenades, don’t remember much else besides that, I mean there’s some things I remember, I remember the NCO, we got there at night and they had, a female officer I think she was a nurse but I wouldn’t swear to it, a female officer showed up, a more senior officer at least a major, major lieutenant colonel, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Something she had wings, but anyway and this guy was instructing us, telling us before it’d been all men and he was talking about, you lay down like this and you couldn’t see, put one, one ball on top of the other would, as he, somebody was, one of ‘em whispered to him and said you put on testicle on top of the other, anyway I remember that to this day. Interviewer: Alright, so you’ve got your, your sort of orientation, Veteran: Right, yup, Interviewer: And now where was the 101st operating the time you went there? Veteran: In the, they, at that time they were having, hamburger hill I guess, Interviewer: Okay and for people who aren’t aware of the nickname, what part of South Vietnam was that in? Veteran: Very, almost in, in I Corps, north, northern part of South Vietnam, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Northwestern Part of South Vietnam, (54:00) Interviewer: Yeah, kind of, of in, in the mountains, kind of close to the border, Veteran: Yes Interviewer: With Laos, �Veteran: That’s very much so, Interviewer: Okay, and Hamburger Hill, the major battle was very costly that went on for an extended period of time, so that’s going on when you get there? Veteran: I don’t know if it was or not, Interviewer: Or, Veteran: I wasn’t, I wasn’t personally listening to the news okay, Interviewer: Right Veteran: I don’t know when it, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: I mean I just know that it was happening because I ended up being a replacement for Hamburger Hill, Interviewer: Right Veteran: And that was one of the motivating factors for getting me, Interviewer: Okay so what unit of the 101st were you assigned to? Veteran: Well, we went, let me finish my story, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: By going north, we end up, we go, we fly up to Cam Ranh Bay I think, we fly to Cam Ranh Bay, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then we have a truck to go up to Camp Eagle, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I had my, I had my helmet in my bag with my stuff and it got switched with somebody else’s, and they, somebody had to find it then we got it switched out, anyway, it got switched, got straightened out, so I ended up with a helmet and didn’t have to go the whole year without a helmet, which is a good thing probably, although I never got hit on my head, but went to, we flew up to, to camp, no we drove up from Cam Ranh Bay to Camp Eagle, �Interviewer: That’s kind of a long trip isn’t it? Cause you got to go over, through, or did you, or through Da Nang, cause Da Nang is closer to Hue, Phu Bai where Camp Eagle is, now you could have, there is, you could take highway 1, you could drive from Cam Ranh Bay, Veteran: Well let me, now I’m not sure, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I know we drove for a ways, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: And I was thinking it was Cam Ranh Bay that we were at, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Cause coming back out, I know coming back from, coming back from R and R, we land, I land, ended up landing at Cam Ranh bay and caught a flight, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Up to Eagle Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Because we went out over the, I think it was in, I don’t remember, Interviewer: Driving from Da Nang was pretty common, driving from Cam Ranh was a lot less common because Cam Ranh Bay was pretty far away, Veteran: It might have been, might have been Da Nang I don’t know, Interviewer: But anyway, a place on the coast, Veteran: We drove Interviewer: And you drove, Veteran: We drove in a truck and we, yeah anyway, we went up there, so I got into, I remember spending the night there and reported to the, DIVARTY, I don’t remember where to, Interviewer: Divisional Artillery, Veteran: Right, Interviewer: Yeah �Veteran: And they sent me out, they did whatever paperwork they’re gonna do and, which I don’t really remember and, and then they sent me, they sent me for a day out to, Currahee on the valley floor, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then came back and I was assigned to second of the three nineteenth and went up there and reported in and had to go out to, the colonel was out to Eagles’ Nest and I went there and he assigned me to, had a choice of being a forward observer or a fire direction officer and I chose being a fire direction officer, I was really not in great shape, physical shape, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But I did that and, I had to fly back, flew to, the battery, bravo battery on Bastogne Interviewer: Okay Veteran: And I reported to, I reported to Captain Davis and Captain Scales was there already, because I remember him telling me to go, to go report to him, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So Davis was the commander, but Scales was there, Interviewer: And was Scales replacing Davis or? Veteran: Scales was, it was a transition, Scales was going to, but usually you do that with a ceremony and, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That hadn’t happened yet, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Okay so, I was there and, so I was the fire direction officer, one of the fire directions officers and JD Caldwell was the other one, and JD was, JD was a good guy, he’s a real right guy but a good guy, but he was a pot smoker, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, I’m not going to talk about him pot smoking but, he didn’t do it around me, but I knew he was doing it on the firebase, Interviewer: Okay �Veteran: I always thought he did his job, but I was recently talking to one of my fire direction guys this year in fact, and he said he was never there, he’s always, never in the thing, cause I would go on, I was there Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: He would come on and I’d go to sleep, we were on, we had a rotating schedule, eight on and eight off, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And you’re never, basically you’re working or you’re sleeping, Interviewer: Right Veteran: Because you never adjust to that schedule, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There’s just no spare time, anyway, but I didn’t, Interviewer: So, if the officer isn’t there, do the enlisted men just do the work? Veteran: Yeah, see you had, you had to have a fire direction officer there when the guns, when they were firing, Interviewer: Right Veteran: And that was, that was a requirement, you could sometimes, they would, if you had a lot of interdiction fires, fires that you, where you do the mission, you plot them out and they would just fire them, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: On schedule, but other than that, especially if you had a, a contact mission, you had to have the officer there, he’s basically saying they’ve got his initials on every one of those rounds that goes out, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And if something goes wrong, he’s the one they’re gonna hank, (1:00:00) Veteran: Anyway, where was I, talking about, about getting there, �Interviewer: You, you got there, you got out to Bastogne and you’re, so this is a firebase, this is along the, is it like along the one side of the A Shau Valley that its, Veteran: Yeah, it’s along the east side of A Shau, Interviewer: Yup Veteran: It was right across from Hamburger Hill Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We were at about the same altitude, it was maybe a few meters, a few feet shorter, especially since they blew the top of it off, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But we were at a thousand feet, Keer, he was in the valley floor, Eagle’s Nest was about twelve hundred feet, and then Airborne, I’m not sure what altitude was for airborne, everyone was at Tiger Mountain and, before I got there, I think May the twelfth, they had had, they had been overrun, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, and some of my guys were there, they had part of the guns from Bravo up there, and part of the fire direction team and the whole thing, and anyway, I went to this year, to reunion, fiftieth reunion in Clarksville where those guys, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: From that base being overrun, but it happened before I got there, Interviewer: Right Veteran: I was in the battery for four days and we had a sapper attack, you’ll hear about Bastogne being overrun, and I guess technically we were overrun, I think, I think of being overrun and that you’re put out of business, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We were never put out of business, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Okay, we had them in the battery area, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But they were never put out of business, I’d gotten off at midnight, though let me back up a little bit, (1:02:00) Veteran: the day before in the afternoon the day before, I’d been out down on the landing pad on Bastogne Interviewer: Okay, I’m gonna pause right here because this, *Screen goes black* Veteran: What am I gonna talk about? Interviewer: Okay so you were gonna tell the story for the attack on Bastogne when you were, Veteran: Okay, on Bastogne, I got to the battery and I reported in, I reported to Captain Davis who was the battery commander, Interviewer: Yup Veteran: Then Captain Scales was also there, and he said report to him, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And Scales says no report to him, Sergeant Brown was there to, the first sergeant, anyway, and I was the fire direction officer, the other fire direction officer was JD Caldwell, Interviewer: Right, you talked a little bit about him already, alright Veteran: And JD was an experienced guy if you read the report, I didn’t realize that he had been the guy that organized the resistance and organized the, to firebase airborne, he was a guy that organized everybody and got them going and got them responding to the attack, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So that’s, I didn’t know that, never knew that until just recently, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, he was the other one, and I had been on, we were working eight on and eight off, I had been on until midnight and I was in bed asleep and he came back there and it’s one, one-thirty, in that general time frame, I wasn’t really watching my watch, but he said you might, �might outta get up, we might be being moored, anyway let me go, let me back up because I didn’t tell you about seeing the guys out, outside the wire, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The night before I’d been down on the, the VIP pad, we had two landing pads, and Bastogne basically was kind of like that, (1:04:01) Veteran: And you had a landing pad down here where the VIP’s came in and the one over here was a supply pad, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Where all our supplies came in, and then they kinda went up to the right and there was another hill over there, we were on top of the mountain, we’re on the very top, half way down between here and the VIP pad was the brigade talk, and there was also an infantry, battalion talk, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There was at least one, there may have been two, but I know there was one, and over there somewhere they had, ARVN liaison people, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So, there were some ARVN’s on the base, anyway I would have been down, and you have to figure the firebase, there’s not a lot of room, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There’s not a lot of places you can go, and I was down on the, on the VIP chopper, pad, looking around and I see these two Vietnamese out there, its, the wire’s here and they’re out just beyond the wire or in the wire, and they saw me looking and they waved at me and I waved back at them, and I turned to an infantry solider who was standing there and asked him, do we have Vietnamese working outside the wire, and we look back around there and they’re gone, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And he reported it, he did report it and, and I was green, I was brand new to war, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, that night this happened, and so they, JD came back and told me to get up and I started getting up and I, I slept in my underwear and I had everything laid out I could get �dressed in the dark and didn’t have any problem with that getting dressing, but I was, I dressed and came out before I, (1:06:00) Veteran: Before I got out while I was dressing, excuse me, Barroom, Barroom, Barroom, excuse me, and what they, what had happened was they, there was a guy had thrown three satchel charges trying to get in, into the commanders, battery commanders, into the hooch, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Our, our, we were set up with a, it was a cut through the top of the mountain, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we had PSP on top of that and sandbags and, and on our end of it we had a CONEX, one of those small CONEX’s, that had our fire direction stuff in it, our radios and the two computers set inside there and then the charts were outside there, and then we had it blocked off except for a doorway, to get through and then we slept behind that and there it was totally blocked off between us and the, the battery commander, and then, the, everything went wild, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: I mean, Interviewer: So, sappers had gotten in the wire, Veteran: The sappers were not only in the wire, they were on, the first one that I know was killed, was killed right up, over the top of me, almost over the top of me, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It’s like, if this is where I was laying, right over you was where he was killed, Mm-hmm Veteran: And when you stood up, I could reach the thing, so it was, distance wise, straight-line distance is less than ten feet, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, from me Interviewer: Yeah �Veteran: But he was on top, we had PSP set up between, but he was, the theory is that he was coming, to give us one of those satchel charges I don’t know if he was or not but, you didn’t make it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: DeWitt Williams was captain and he was the artillery liaison officer with the third brigade, and DeWitt was coming in at that time, had been down in the talk and was coming back to, to sleep, he was, had been sleeping with, (1:08:00) Veteran: The, the battery commander, and, in his hooch, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So he was coming back there to sleep and he saw this guy and he shot him, he also saw another guy because that night they were having a big poker game at the XO’s hutch, can’t remember the XO’s name, Tom something or other, maybe Meyer, not sure, anyway our XO, but they were having a poker game and my chief computer was over there, the guy that, that the senior fire direction NCO, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Was over there, he was coming back, but DeWitt saw him as he paused on a wall, the wall that separated us from the battery itself, on top, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Separated the battery, he paused on that and DeWitt shot him through both calves, alright, so he’s crawling along and we’re in the dark up by the entranceway, I’ve been shot, where, I don’t know, that sounds odd but it’s really true, so he’s crawling in and he falls off the door, we come out the door and we had steps, you had a blast wall, and he had steps to go up, up to the right, up to the top, well he came along right over the door and fell in and broke his collarbone, so he, so we get him in and he’s sitting there in one of the chairs and he’s counting his money, and I don’t know how much money had made but he was a big winner in that game, but he was a loser, I don’t know if he was a loser or not because he got shot through both calves and he would have been back with us from those wounds, but he broke his collarbone and that evacuated him back to the states, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (1:10:00) Veteran: Okay �Interviewer: Alright, so that’s how this thing starts, so now what happens? Veteran: We get out, we start changing the thing, we were never none functional, Scales came into the, he was in the FTC and something came over the wire which I didn’t hear and he ran out and he, at that point he had his M16 with him, he had the, cover guard, the hand guard on the front of his M16 was on, he came back later and it was gone, it’d been blown off, he went into the battery, over to the battery, to the guns, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the first gun, I’m calling it the first gun because it’s the first gun I came to but I don’t know how they had them numbered, they may have had them numbered in a different way, Interviewer: Right Veteran: But the gun, when you first, when you went you couldn’t get to the guns unless you went over the wall but normally you went around by the, between the gun and the, and the commanders hooch over here, so you went around and you went up, that guy, the gun, the gun crew was the crew chief was short, a short timer, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we had started out with mortar rounds, or so they thought they were mortar rounds at least, and he had his crew in the bunker, and Scales ran them all out because the bunkers not where you wanna be, you need to be out, they had a, a fighting ditch and a parapet, a wall, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They come out and a guy pops up from behind there and shoots a rifle grenade, hits a guy on the head, on his helmet and killed him, and he shot the next guy with a, his AK-47, with bullets, killed him and he was shot a number of times (1:12:00) Veteran: And this kid ran out to the fighting wall and he laid a satchel charger on that kids leg and he, his lap and blew his legs off, and our medic was over there treating that guy and they were firing directly over him, ended up medic, ended up having his ear, ear drums blown out, couldn’t hear anything, and there’s more about him later, let’s see what did I leave out, the three blasts that I heard at the very beginning, Scales got out of the hut first, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then those three blasts, the first sergeant was trying to get out behind him, and he got blown back, all three times, they blew away the blast wall, blast wall was gone but it did, its purpose was to keep them out of the, out of the bunker, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: First sergeant tore down the wall between us that came out through the fire direction center, came out through our, our area, they let’s see what else went on that night, Interviewer: Now did you go to the fire direction center or were you, Veteran: I went to the fire direction center and we went outside and it was a guy, it was a soldier, enemy solider that came up, this was, this, there’s a gun parapet here, there’s just a walk way between us but there’s a wall, but there’s just a walk way between us and then over there was just with, you went off down the hill but there was a stump there still and this soldier came up behind that stump, he shot an RPG over our heads which is probably a good thing because it went over our heads and we, it could easily have killed us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But it’s like shooting off a rock, a bottle rocket and, everybody was shooting at him and he after a few minutes, he turned around and walked, went back, (1:14:00) Veteran: So, I don’t know if he didn’t, who knows what shape he’s in but, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But he went back, I remember going from there to the, it was a bunker on that side of the base, on the east side of the base and I remember running from where I was to there and I felt like one of those cartoon things where you know you are running but it’s like slow motion, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That’s what it felt like, and I was there for a while and things kinda settled down, but we ended up, it’s interesting, interesting to watch things happen, before that I had noted already that we had problems with people walking through the concertina wire, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Separating stuff off, there were paths through it Interviewer: Right Veteran: And I’d, I’d try to get guys to work on it and they, you couldn’t get anybody to constantly work on those, just stood there and supervised, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Anyway, afterwards you couldn’t get anybody to stop, but we got a fire mission you gotta come down here, no I’m gonna finish this, Interviewer: Do you know how many men you’re, they lost in that attack? Veteran: I think we lost four and I think they lost, we, and in, in our battery, I think it was four people, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And about eleven wounded, and then we were pretty close matched overall on the firebase, there were a lot more killed on the firebase but it was a, I walked down to the, walked down to the VIP pad, halfway down there, there was a human brain lying beside the trail, okay, looked like intact but its, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Obviously not much in it but walked down to the, (1:16:00) Veteran: The pad and on the right side of the pad we had roles of concertina wire there, there was a human body without a, a brain, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I think that he probably got hit by a fifty caliber, the battery owned a fifty caliber, usually the infantry used it when they were there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But the battery owned a fifty caliber, they were supposed to have turned it in, but they didn’t, changed it for sixty, and they got the, we had sixties, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But had that fifty caliber, I think that’s what happened to him, Interviewer: This was a Vietnamese guy that was hit? Veteran: Yes, Interviewer: Okay, �Veteran: Yes, it was, I don’t think that M60 would do that, but then you never know, there were, you know you looked at the people, the, looking at the wounds that was my first experience looking at wounds, it looked like little dark spots, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: About that big, about the end of your finger, on the other side it was huge, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They blew, blew the back out, we had it, we had, we killed at least two in the battery area, it may have been more than that but I remember the two for sure, and then we lost, lost two dead and several wounded, it seems like we lost up to four but I can’t remember for sure right now, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: The field, first sergeant was wounded, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: He was a, a, your field first sergeants like the, he ran the guns, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The XO runs the guns, the field first sergeant was his senior NCO, it’s all the, all the gun sergeants report to him and they’ve got there crew, yeah the satchel charge went off beside him, I think he probably lost some fingers but he wanted to be carried down on a stretcher, but we put everybody on the VIP pad who had to be evacuated, and he wanted to be carried down but the stretcher was down there already on somebody else on it, we got mad and got up and walked down, showed them, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, that’s the last I saw of him we had a new one later, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: But Interviewer: So now you know you’re at war, Veteran: Knew we were at war, it changed things too, they tell you, they tell you things they told us when we came through different, we had a medic talk to us, we, Betty I think was the one that told us this, said that you won’t believe your eyes, you won’t believe your eyes, you’ll check everything, you’ll check everything, fell everything and check everything and I thought when �she said it, this is not gonna be true, this is crazy, but when you actually, happened you didn’t believe your eyes, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You felt everything okay, right here you know Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: you had to feel it as well and, and everything stopped, everything’s everyone, everything stopped you were on a, on an adrenaline high, your adrenaline was there, you’d been up for twenty-four hours roughly, and you were just on an adrenaline high until, until it stopped sending you, go to sleep, well after, after the everything stopped, been stopped for thirty minutes or so, then we could get medivacs in and had to been, I think it had to been thirty minutes at least since the last round, before we get a medivac in, but we got all kinds of heli-, I think, helicopters coming in, in and out of that VIP pad everybody running over there and get off and walk around the base a little bit, (1:20:00) Veteran: And you’re back on so they could write up, get write up for a medal, it’s how they got their medals, you think I’m kidding but I’m not, Interviewer: No, that’s, Veteran: You think I’m kidding but I’m not kidding, I don’t know how much money we spent if you think about, now think about economics, I don’t know much money we spent just on, on helicopter fuel just to get those VIP’s and get their, Interviewer: Okay, so you get an air medal for flying in a place that’s a combat zone or, Veteran: No Interviewer: Where fighting is taking place, Veteran: No, the way, Interviewer: Or is it a combat infantry badge they’re after or? Veteran: I don’t know, no I, seriously they probably put themselves in for a silver star, Okay, I’ll tell you a story about that in a minute Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t know �Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: what medals they put themselves in for, I really don’t but they came, that’s if you got a desk job how are you gonna get a medal, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Alright, if you’re a staff officer, how are you gonna get a medal, and I’ll tell ya, another anecdote when were off the air about someone who’s here Interviewer: Alright, but in the meantime, you have the VIP’s going up and the wounded get evacuated, and how much longer did you stay at that base after that event? Veteran: Several months Interviewer: Okay, so how do things change or what, what comes next now after? Veteran: We had another attack later, we’ll let me tell you the rest of this story, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We pilled the bodies up on a, a cargo net, the Vietnamese bodies, I didn’t take any pictures, I got pictures, actually pictures of some of the Vietnamese piled on a cargo net, I didn’t take any pictures of American dead or wounded but I did take picture of Vietnamese wounded, dead, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Didn’t take wounded but, they, they pile them up on a cargo net and, (1:22:00) Veteran: They haul that thing over the jungle and dropped them way they thought, intelligence had that that’s the way they were gonna go, leave to the east of us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I told you about the VIP’s command, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Well we had this helicopter come in and this guy got off and he didn’t have anything on his jungle fatigues, he walked, didn’t have a hat on, he walked to the top of the hill which was where we were, looked around like this, turned around, got back in his helicopter and left, three months later one of the guys got, and at that time there was a Navy jet bombing to the east of us, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t know what he was bombing, I mean I have no idea, but when he, one of our guys got a letter from his mother, it contained a newspaper clipping, air power saves paratroopers, ya right, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The other thing was, today and the way we were fighting today, they fight a lot at night, they have night-vision goggles and things where you can see at night, well we didn’t have those, we fought, with, with our eyes, but we also had flares so we lit the night up, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We had flares from our guns, we had illumination rounds, they had flares from aircraft you had hand flares, and from our base, the next morning from our base all the way to the ocean was a line of parachutes from the flares that we had had, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You could see them it’s just like a, like, it’s almost like a, you think of an airshow, you know with the balloons, it’s kinda like that, but it, these were just gonna fall somewhere, it was a, it was, interesting night I’ll tell you what, and I have to think, (1:24:00) Veteran: Scales, I’m glad Scales was there, I thought Scales, I had blocks get, Davis out of my, I think Davis probably had a, a nervous breakdown Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I think but I don’t know, I had blocked him out of my memory, I didn’t remember him period, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Until I, I was talking, we were talking about the battle when I was visiting with the, the two guys in my fire direction center, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Tom Jenkins and, and Michael Delaney or Stump, were two of the guys in our fire direction center, and they were at this other meeting, the one from airborne, being overrun, we were talking about this and they were telling me, remind me of Davis, I had, I, still there’s a vague memory, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Not very clear, not something I kept around but, Bob got a Silver Star, and then he was, he was the battery commander and he’s now a retired two-star general, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And shows up on Fox and Friends every once and a while, Fox News, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I saw him Interviewer: Yeah, I remember him, and he was something of a talking head during the Iraq war and, Veteran: He had, is, I just saw him recently like within the week, I think, on, the noon thing that they did, anyway he’s one of their talking heads, so, but he deserved that Silver Star, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: He’s one of the few that deserved a Silver Star, we had another one later, we was, we were preparing to leave, and we had another separate attack which we call in the wire, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They had two mad minutes, one right after the other, had a mad minute, they reloaded, and had another mad minute, (1:26:00) Veteran: And caught more people coming in the wire, Interviewer: Okay, now explain for general audience what a mad minute is, Veteran: Mad minutes, planned time when, on, on command or on signal everybody fires, they throw grenades, they fire everything for a minute, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Then it stops, so I, at that point I was in bed also, this was 3:00 in the morning maybe, it was before 5:00, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Most things happen about 5:00 in the morning okay, right about the time the sun’s fixing to come up, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They wanna hit right about then, and that’s when, usually when it happens, but I was in bed and I heard the mad minute and I heard the second mad minute, and then I heard a machine gun when the second one stopped, the machine gun didn’t, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I was awake and ready to go, that’s just conditioning, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And it, again we caught them out of the wire the second time, caught them in the wire before they got into us, the first time they were already there, they were, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Some, my guys, one of my guys speculated that they were already there, that they were part of the ARVN detachment, and I can’t tell you there were no okay, I wouldn’t tell you that they’re not, but who knows, Interviewer: Okay, so you mean for the first attack, when they were already inside, Veteran: Yes, for when they were in the wire, Interviewer: But that of course was also the thing where the concertina wire wasn’t in particularly good condition and so forth the first time, Veteran: No, this was internal, now not the external, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Because we had it around the outside, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: But, but you don’t want people running around, (1:28:00) Veteran: you want to guide where they go, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And so, just the internal concertina wire to, to guide people, yeah, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: That wasn’t in as good a shape, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Anybody, you could get them to stop, it could get them to stop, we’ll put up a little more concertina, it’s a, it’s a motivating factor I’ll tell you what, Interviewer: But the second time though, now was the second mad minute, was the idea there that, that if, Veteran: I don’t know, Interviewer: You had the first mad minute they might think that, Veteran: I don’t know, they’d have a mad minute, they’d have a plan one, and I don’t know who came up with the idea, there was an infantry company, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That was providing security, Interviewer: Right Veteran: And I, I really don’t but it caught them off guard, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They had one than they waited, Interviewer: Yup, Veteran: Then the second one, and after the second one was over, there was a guy in a hole that they’d seen go into a foxhole, it was a, a listening post that we’d had down outside the wire, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Was outside the wire but it was within sight of our bunkers, and they’d had a listening post out there, but they’d recall people, didn’t have anybody in it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: It was empty, but the guys that had occupied it on that section had a bunker up there they were in the bunker and I saw this guy go in, so I was over there and he says, hey lieutenant we got on down here stuck in this, that, stuck in this hole, so we tried to get him to chieu hoi, cause you know how much Vietnamese we knew which was about chieu hoi, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, so we yelled chieu hoi, chieu hoi, and nothing happens to them, so I grabbed, I had a, a M79 grenade launcher, grabbed one from somebody, (1:30:00) Veteran: I don’t remember who I got it from, only had three rounds, and we had our kamo guy was named Marion and Marion shot the M79 all night long for the whole time we was out there, okay, so I figure Marion knows how to shoot this thing, so I told him, Marion put a round in that hole down there, he took the M79, shot it and if the hole is right down here like in the parking lot, he shot like we has shooting for the ball field okay, he didn’t have a clue how to shoot it except to pop, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So, I took it away from him, and there was, we had a behind our fire direction center, we had a, a radio relay from special forces, two off, two NCOs, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And one of the guys took it and shot direct fire at the hole, hit the rim and this guy comes out and he’s not chieu hoiing, he’s running, he’s gonna go home and he runs down and up the other side, and he was running and he turned to run along the woods, well everybody, there is no shooting going on, no artillery going on, so this guy is running and everybody is sitting there, so everybody shoots him, it’s like a shooting gallery, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: pap, pap, pap, maybe a hundred guys shooting at him, I don’t know, a bunch, and of course he’s, still trying to struggle so he’s, he’s down and let me tell you one thing, I don’t ever wanna be shot by a high-powered rifle, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The human body wasn’t made to be shot by a, high-powered rifle, it acts like a rag doll, really, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The guy was still struggling, wiggling, trying to crawl, and, �(1:32:00) Veteran: The SF sergeant shot him again with a M79, he stopped, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And everybody cheered, sounds cruel, sounds inhumane, but that’s kind of the stage we were at, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We were kind of at an inhumane stage, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: We were, we were standing over there and I was, Scales in that same area, and Scales was behind me, we were about this far apart, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Like you were Scales and I was standing here and we had been firing, having a blocking fire, being fired into the jungle down there, and it’d been going on, a round went off, a piece of shrapnel flew by my head, just, from this way, actually more this way, by my head and there was a guy standing to the left over here and it hit him flat on the, on the leg, it was a piece of shrapnel big as my, big as my arm, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: About like that and if it had hit him sideways it would have cut his head, his leg off, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: If it had hit me, it would cut my head off, that’s fate we stopped that from firing, we stopped, called a, called a halt to that, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: But you, have the feeling that somebody’s looking out for you, you know you get that, the other thing you learn quickly is that no matter what you do, you become a fatalist to a point, no matter what you do, you can’t protect yourself, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So you do what you can do and then you let fate take its place, �Interviewer: It’s an effect that a lot of sliders talk about, if they see combat then you adjust to it in some way so you can function, do your job, (1:34:03) Veteran: Well part of the thing is, it’s like fear, when I first got over there I was afraid alright, and you can’t live in fear, you can’t function with fear, and eventually you either adjust to it or you go crazy I guess, I don’t know, I adjusted to it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Doesn’t mean you’re not cautious, doesn’t mean you don’t do everything you can to protect yourself, one of the things I did was make rules, I had rules about things, if I thought it was bad, it was bad till I proved it wasn’t bad, okay that one of my rules it’s still one of my rules, if I think it’s bad, its bad till I found out it’s not bad, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Or questionable, if it’s questionable its bad, yeah, let me think what else there to tell you about, Interviewer: Well, anything else from the time that, that you, you’re Bastogne, I mean what, anything else from that or are those really the main things that stand out? Veteran: That’s pretty much the main thing that was, we didn’t have, I don’t think we had any wounded, if we did it was few, Interviewer: Okay, another, now did you have a lot of fire missions from there? Veteran: Oh, we fired all the time, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We, we, I was over there while we were on Bastogne, we fired the one millionth round, before we left, we fired the two millionth round, Interviewer: Just from that battery? Veteran: No just, Interviewer: Or in Vietnam Veteran: This, it probably was in Vietnam, I don’t know what, it was in Vietnam Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: The two millionth round, yeah, but that was, I mean that’s, and it’s a lot of territory if you think about it, it’s a lot of territory, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That’s a lot of bullets too, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Yeah, we fired a lot, we did Interviewer: Okay, and then at what point do you leave that or where do you go next? Veteran: When, one of the things, one of the projects they had, (1:36:00) Veteran: Of course they had the highway one, that, that the Navy, the Seabees built, Seabees built highway one along the coast, Interviewer: Right Veteran: Just outside of Camp Evens, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It went north I guess all the way, I don’t know all where it went, to Saigon at least, Interviewer: Well the original highway one goes all the way back to the French, Seabees probably improved it, Veteran: Well they, they paved it, okay Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Let me just say this, they paved highway one, so the Army engineers had a project where they were, we were gonna keep the A Shau Valley open year-round even during the monsoon, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And they paved a road out there okay, and they, they built a fire bade where the road entered the valley, and some Congressman come over, had a ceremony, had this congressman and one of them hops in a jeep and they take off down the, the road, that was a hot incident, I mean you were listening on the radios not here, he’s on the road somewhere, so this wasn’t a safe area, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: This was, in Vietnam the only place you could count on being safe was what you could see and control with your M16, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Alright, that was what you owned, nothing more, and it was hard to get that point across to people but this guy made the trip and he got through, but it rained one time and it washed out in five places, and they decided that it wasn’t feasible to try to have, try to keep it open, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They also made a base out there, they were gonna move, they moved from Eagle’s Nest down to this new base I, can’t remember the name of it right now, anyway I’ll think about it, the name of it but I can’t remember it right now, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: But it was, it was on a mountain, but it was a small, much smaller mountain (1:38:01) Veteran: As where the road came out so they could actually get vehicles traffic to that base, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the other thing that happened is the monsoon is, monsoon was beginning, building up to the monsoon, the canopy comes down somewhat and jungle rats went up the mountain, jungle rats invaded Eagle’s Nest, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: When I was, when I was in Bastogne, we built bunker bunks, out of ammo boxes, put four ammo boxes together to make a bunk, and we had another one, so I was slept on the bottom and the other, the other fire direction officer, excuse me, slept on top, an old super, super rat would come down the wall, the dirt wall, I’d be a sleep, it’d jump, hit on me, and bounce off to the other wall, so you’re lying there at night and all of a sudden somebody jumps on you and you’re awake and your, you know just not a good time, so finally got a big trap and they sent me a, a big trap and I caught super mouse, Nice coat I was thinking that, that sure would be a nice, if I had a bunch of those I could make me a rat coat and get me one of those hats with the big mirrors on it and be a pimp, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: West Coast, Interviewer: Well was there only one of them, Veteran: There was, where you were, they only had one, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: They moved us off though, and moved us off there, they couldn’t keep us resupplied, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So, we went to Firebase Blaze and, and at Blaze we, I remember swimming, going swimming, there was a stream there, and swimming in the river and bathing for about three days, and then they moved us down to firebase fury, which is farther south, and fury was, (1:40:00) Veteran: It’s the only time I came across a, punji pits, they were punji pits with the bamboo spikes in them, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There hadn’t been war down there, I mean we had, it had been occupied at some point, I don’t know who but not while I was there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: One thing that had happened, it had a infantry patrol in there, somebody had been wounded and they called in a, a medivac, the medivac didn’t come in but another helicopter did and he had him throw smoke in the, in the, NVA also threw smoke and he went in on the wrong smoke, Interviewer: Oh, Veteran: Even though they were telling him that’s the wrong smoke, he went in and got shot down, and there were the remains of that helicopter, it wasn’t right on the base, it was, was just off it but you could see it, so you’re awake in the morning, every morning you wake up and you’re outside waiting on somebody to stick their head up right, before dawn, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: At dawn, and then the howler monkeys come in, yes, so you’re already tense, you’re already tight, and the howler monkey starts making that racket, oh god, oh, ah, they howl in the evening, and howl, but they really howl in the morning, waking up oh, it’s the only time I heard howler monkeys, then they moved us from there to, there was a place, so they were gonna put a �fire base in, and the first of the 506 was doing it and sometime in June I think of ’69, and the battalion commander was killed, and they put us over there, and I think at that point there were, put us over there to be bait battery, I always thought they did but it was, turned out that’s the, that’s when Ho Chi Minh died, when Ho Chi Minh died, they called, called a truce, a unilateral, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Ceasefire, (1:42:00) Veteran: It was the honor, they didn’t do it for three days, they didn’t bother us, and then they moved us from there to Hamburger Hill, and nothing happened on Hamburger Hill it was just a blown off top of the mountain, Interviewer: So, when do you think you were there? Veteran: I can’t tell you exactly, Interviewer: Okay because it can’t be during the monsoon season, Veteran: No, it wasn’t because we was, but they were worried about the monsoon coming on, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: But, and there’s two monsoons in the north, I don’t know about the south, but they’re two monsoons, anyway the, the only thing I remember is it was Sunday because two chaplains came out, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And had services on Hamburger Hill, and then they moved us from there back to Evans, we’re at Evans for a while then we had to build up and went to the DMZ, we, we drove up and, and were lifted onto the firebase Sandy, well, Rings called it Sandy, the 101st renamed it Scotch, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we were up there, the battery commander changed, Scales’ time was up and there was another, somebody had extended to get command of the battery, and I outranked him because I was already a captain, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So, they moved me into the assistant S-3, which I started, went back to my lock and worked there, �Interviewer: Okay, now explain what an S-3 is, Veteran: Operations, so basically, we had an S-3 who deal with operations, was a Major, and about, several Captains, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There were assistant S-3’s and what we did is, I assigned fires, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, I cleared fires, (1:44:00) Veteran: I’d be sure everybody was doing what they were supposed to be doing, and monitored the, the, monitored what they were doing, checking their work if necessary and following the missions, so that’s basically what I did, I was the one that did, that you, monitored everything really, but when you’d hear the thing come in, if there was any question about anything, sometimes when, the way that the, it worked, the way they had it setup to work, it was a lot of safety involved, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So, the battery you’ve got, at least when I was there, we had a computer, a guy doing the, the calculations and you had the, the fire direction officer and the fire direction officer’s checking the work of the other one, excuse me, *phone rings* Veteran: Go away, I don’t want to talk to you, it’s a robo call I guarantee it, Interviewer: Alright, Veteran: Anyway, Interviewer: So, Veteran: And then, and while that’s going on, you’re sending the computer, computer is a person not a machine, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yeah, yup Veteran: You’d send it to the battalion, and battalion checks it and you, if there’s any disagreement you worked that out before anything’s ever fired, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then, if there’s any problem with it, or if, if, you have to trust your people, but you also have to check on ‘em, Interviewer: Yup, Veteran: So that goes on to, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, that’s what I did, Interviewer: Okay, and was that sort of the last part of your tour, was doing that? Veteran: No, it turned out not to be, I did that and then, (1:46:00) Veteran: I was, I went on R and R at Christmas, and came back, came back New Year’s Eve and on New Year’s Day I went, I was assigned to be the liaison officer for the 2nd of the 506th, that’s how I got into the Ripcord, I wasn’t really at Ripcord, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But I was in the transition into Ripcord, so I can tell you a lot about what happened there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright because the Rip-, Ripcord itself, I mean they’re trying to establish it as early as March of, of 1970, so there are several, they don’t actually do it until you’re in April, Veteran: No, we didn’t try to establish it in March, I mean they may tell you they’re trying to establish it in March, let me tell you what happened, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: So, we had, we had Colonel Crowell as the battalion commander, and we had Colonel Crowell was the battalion commander, Major Koenigsbauer was the infantry S-3, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, and, and I was the liaison officer and then we had to transition from Colonel Crowell, to Colonel Lucas, alright, so, and then we had to change a command and Lucas was in charge, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So just, in the transition we go out to that, we’re put in three companies of infantry and to the west of, of ripcord, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And at that time, I’m out, I didn’t have it listed as Ripcord, I had it listed as Carroll, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I talked to Chuck Hawkins, he says well no, I’m sorry, talked to somebody else, and they said well Carroll was up here in the north and it was a Marine firebase, that’s true, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I was on it, I saw it, I know about it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But I think the Marines named every other firebase they had Carroll alright, and they didn’t stay named because they changed, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: It was we went on Scotch, on Sandy and they changed it to Scotch, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: One was Scotch, and one was Soda, (1:48:00) Veteran: And I don’t, we were on Scotch, anyway Carroll, this thing was named Carroll, so there were more than one Carol, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I understand that, and I had it still on my map as Carroll, but later after we got there, they changed it to ripcord, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, so, don’t wanna say anything bad, I’m thinking about what I’m saying, that’s so I don’t offend West Point Officers because they have thinking it’s not mine, West Point officers �for the most part are very good and very effective, and most of the Generals are West Point officers, but, going to West Point doesn’t make you any better than anybody else, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They do take care of each other, but it does ensure a way of thinking that many officers, many Army people, that was another thing that I was not good at, you’re going this way, and that’s the way we’re going and that’s it, *phone rings* Veteran: That’ll get rid of you totally I hope, anyway, and then you go this way, just, and that’s the only way you can go, and if this way is, you’re, anyway, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So, we get into that about Carroll, ripcord, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We got out there anyway, we were going out there and one of the missions that we had was, there’s a river, ripcord’s up here, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There’s a mountaintop going here, there’s a stream here, supposedly that stream had something in it that would make people sick, supposedly, and then stream, and we were going, that was one of the reasons for putting people in out there, (1:50:00) Veteran: So they had three to three companies they were gonna put in, well we had a good landing zone on the, at the top and the bottom, but not in the middle, and you’ve got, I’m sitting in the middle, I’m sitting in, you’ve got a bench seat in the, in the Huey, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I’m sitting in the left door, Colonel Lucas is sitting in the middle, and Colonel Crowell is sitting in the right door and normally it would have been the S-3 in the middle, but he didn’t even go because we were already more or less full, he’d have to sit in a jump seat, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Or I would have or something, anyway so we go and Colonel Crowell says we’ll call the Air Force and get them to bomb it and make it bigger, well that didn’t happen, okay, didn’t �happen, May, March the 12th, March the 12th, so we’ve got troops in the air, we go in and we try to get in, you can get in, but you’ve got to hover in, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Which is not a way you want to have to worry about, you didn’t have the glide path, oaky there was a hole there, but you couldn’t get into it, so we put those alternate, alternate was to put them on, on Carroll, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Which became Ripcord, Interviewer: Right Veteran: Put them on there and we got mortared, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We got run off, a couple people killed, and back to eight people and start all over again, so then we’re gonna have, we got, there was also ARVN, an ARVN insertion at the same time and that one, (1:52:00) Veteran: They found some intelligence, intelligence, intelligence and ARVN don’t go together but that’s what they found, intelligence, anyway so we’re going, we make a free fire zone, and you had to do arc lights and stuff like that, for an arc light you had to clear an area three miles wide and five miles long, and then you can call an arc light on it, Interviewer: OK Veteran: B-52 strike, but that and anything else that came up, so the other thing happened was the weather came in, so the weather didn’t cooperate with us, so instead of being five days, it was like two weeks, Interviewer: Yeah cause April 1st was the second time, Veteran: April 1st was the second time, and so April 1st, who we put troops in, they also have planned, by this time they’ve decided they’re gonna make this a firebase, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So they’ve got, and the TOC’s gonna go in, and so they’ve got advanced party for the TOC, Major Laws in one of the last two helicopters, one of the last two helicopters were action tracks, people going in the artillery for, forward party, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the, the TOC forward party, and then the rest of it was, was the insertion of the company, company and they go in and, and we’re mortared again, in fact the troops, so here’s ripcord, and then down the ridgeline is Kaka Bow, Kaka Bow Ridge, runs up to the, same way, the pilots reported troops in the open, moving up Kaka, along Kaka Bow Ridge toward ripcord, Okay now in the middle of, a big insertion, and with, and they had a proper artillery preparation, I did, (1:54:00) Veteran: I planned the artillery prep, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The problem was it’s just too big, I mean it was too, and we couldn’t, I couldn’t kill all the mortars, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And before we had a few places where they could shoot a mortar from, now they had a lot of places they could shoot a mortar from, you know you just open the canopy up, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So we did ‘em a favor in doing that, anyway, that was a bad day, they were mortared, some mortars, Interviewer: Yeah that’s, Veteran: I lost a lieutenant and a forward observer, that’s another sad story this kid was waiting to hear, he was waiting to hear about his, I think his third child, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was his third child, one of his children he had a child ready, bout to pop out, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t know waiting to hear about it, he’s on the ground, I'm talking to him from the air, I told him to be safe, get in a safe place, where you can see but in a safe place, the last heli-, the last helicopter coming in had Ben Keen, Captain Ben Keen, Charlie battery commander, second of the 319th, Ben Keen made him move to where he could see better, he was also exposed when he got blown up, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: By the mortar, blown in half, I didn’t know that until much later which is probable a good thing, because I'm not in jail, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t think I could have gotten away with shooting him with everybody looking at me, in self-defense I don’t know, IInterviewer: Yeah, it’s tough Veteran: I don’t mean to, don’t put that in there, God knows, edit that out, not worth saying, that’s the way I felt, but Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Ben Keen, I don’t wanna talk about (1:56:01) Interviewer: Okay so, and then basically then they, the company that lands walks off that night, they leave, Veteran: Carrying a body, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The bodies Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: More than one, yes, they go over to the other hill, the, I don’t remember, the hill to the southeast, Interviewer: Maybe one thousand at that point or, Veteran: I think it was one thousand, I think that’s where it was, I'm pretty sure that’s where they went, and then that night the recon lieutenant just changed position, changed commanders, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Wilson, this kid Wilson, I don’t remember his first name, teenager had been to recon platoon leader alright, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And he was, he did well, he did, he was a good platoon leader, operated well alone he was a, anyway this other guy Wilson who was new to that and he wasn’t new to the country company, he was, he’d been there a while, but he took over the recon platoon and he was talking about, he had been given orders by Colonel Lucas to go sneak and peak on ripcord, that’s a stupid thing to do, you just got your ass run off and you’re gonna send some people, sneaking and peak back over there, I'm sorry but that’s my opinion and Wilson thought he was gonna be killed and he was killed, I mean it’s like a death sentence, that, that always didn’t make, several things that Lucas did didn’t make sense to me, one was why didn’t he divert to ash and trash when you get on a hot LZ because they’re in the way, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They’re not part, they, it’s just stupid stuff that’s in the way, (1:58:00) Veteran: You don’t need them, divert those two things, we can, reschedule it, anyway, I have to leave that like me being green and the, well Bastogne, and it was, he’d been, he’d been in country six months, but he hadn’t been Interviewer: He had no combat experience, he was not a ground combat commander Veteran: He was good about wanting you to have your ironed clothes ironed Interviewer: Yup Veteran: And that was one of the issues he and I had, they had, they decided that we could always, they washed our clothes, you sent our clothes in the laundry to be washed, just see we had clean clothes but they were wrinkled alright, so they decided they could iron clothes, they could do ten sets per, for the battalion, so he gave it over to the Sergeant Major, the Sergeant Major did the staff, and the First Sergeants, staff I don’t know if it include, including the company commanders, and the First Sergeant, alright, but that let the artillery liaison out, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Well you gotta go to your battalion, he’s got the same problem you got, he’s already got that done over there alright, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Well you could iron them, I ain’t ironing them okay, that’s not gonna happen, it didn’t happen, but that was one of the things, alright so now I'm like I said I’ve always been kind of a slob but I'm, oh well, anyway, I'm not walking around in ironed fatigues right, the rest of his people are, cause now they got that, so that was, that was one of the things, �(2:00:01) Veteran: That, one of our content points of contention, when it, when I told him that when we were doing the planning for this mission we went up and met with the ARVN’s, Don Hi I believe, and he was talking with the ARVN commander and he was talking about ammunitions, well we need more ammunition, and so Lucas volunteers to give him some of ours, I said sir you can’t give those to him, well I'm allocated so many rounds and I can give him some of that, I said sir, you’re allocated, but it belongs to that battery commander down there that has it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You’re allocated it for who are used, but you can’t give it away here like that, he didn’t understand, maybe he did understand he’s too, never mind, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But that was, so then he, we got, he got ordered to go to the field, move out, we moved out to Gladiator, he got ordered to go out there and we got our packs down, got our packs on the tawk, we’re going out next morning, to have our packs in there that night, and I had, when I came through, central issue, I would, I had, you were issued two canteens, well I got one regular canteen with canteen cup, the whole thing, and, and the other one I got was a two quart canteen, where it had a cover and a strap and also could be put on the belt, but that’s what I was issued, so I had that hanging on, I had my, my canteen on my web belt, but I had that on my pack, he decided he wanted it, he liked it, we’ll get you one, well, there wasn’t any to get okay, so I go back and there's my pack without my canteen on it, (2:02:01) Veteran: he’s got my canteen, he took my can, they took my canteen and gave it to Lucas, I wasn’t real thrilled with that okay, you have to think about the situation too, you’re in Vietnam what else they gonna do to you, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They’re not going to shot at you in jail, Interviewer: Yeah, alright now this tape is about up, Veteran: Okay Interviewer: So I'm going to stop it here Veteran: You might say Lucas and I didn’t see eye-to-eye, � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HinesR2319V1 Title A name given to the resource Hines, Raymond (1 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-26 Description An account of the resource Raymond Hines was born on April 6, 1944 in Wellford, South Carolina, and graduated high school in 1962. Hines received his draft notice in 1965 and chose to enlist in the Army. He completed Basic Training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, where he became a Morse Intercept Operator. He also trained in Artillery OCS at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before transferring to Fort Bliss, Texas, as part of the Air Defense for only two months before being transferred to Wurzburg Germany. From Germany, Hines was deployed to Vietnam with the 2nd of the 319th as a Fire Direction Officer and proceeded to report to the Bravo Battery at Firebase Bastogne. He saw heavy combat with this unit. While in Vietnam, Hines also worked as an assistant S-3 fireman, and a Liaison Officer for the 2nd of the 506 at Fire Base Ripcord. After taking some additional advanced artillery courses, he deployed to Nuremberg Germany with the 3rd of the 70th House Artillery before transferring to the 7th Corps Artillery as a Nuclear Release Authentication System Officer. He would later return to Europe after recieveing his veterinarian degree in the United States to care for military service animals. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hines, Raymond Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6848d882890e7fe158bdaf32be7e144.mp4 abf68dc163b456c00ec37afc0685de5e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d56e62990df10e9f1450cb574697342e.pdf d2d22fe1941cf6754aa58a42378bcf06 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Raymond Hines Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa Interviewer: Alright now we’ve gotten to the point in your story where you’re working with 2nd Battalion of the 506th, you’ve been talking some about Colonel Lucas, the battalion commander, and you were heading out to a firebase called Gladiator, Veteran: Correct, Interviewer: Okay now what, roughly when was that? Veteran: *laughs* Interviewer: Well was Ripcord, Ripcord, we already established… Veteran: We were, we had not gotten that, we had not established troops on Ripcord at that point, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Okay, Ripcord was still, we had had people up there and got run off, Interviewer: Right Veteran: And that had happened twice, Interviewer: Right Veteran: At that point, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: I think twice, I don’t know Interviewer: Okay so now we’re kind of in early April 1970 before the people actually march up to the top, Veteran: Correct Interviewer: And set up, okay, Veteran: Yes �Interviewer: So pick up the story then from there Veteran: Well, not much more, we, they built the TOC there, I didn’t like the TOC, I didn’t like, when you’re building a TOC, when you’re, when you’re building a structure, a TOC, it was a, a bunker if you will, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the steps going in were from the uphill down, the way they had it they didn’t actually have steps, they had, it was like a funnel going down into the TOC, Interviewer: Was this on Gladiator or was this on, Veteran: This was on Gladiator, Interviewer: Yeah okay, Veteran: And eventually I'm sure they got it straightened out but at that point they didn’t have it, and I didn’t want to spend the night there okay, for me that’s a funnel when, mortars come down, mortars come relatively straight down, they hit a funnel they’re gonna follow it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That goes right into the TOC, didn’t have a blast wall, didn’t have basic things that to me were basic, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, and I don’t remember where I slept but I didn’t sleep in there that night, they were upset with me and so, that’s okay, (2:00) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The next morning they went back to the rear and took the showers and came back out and I was going to go back to the rear but nothing ever came. I sat on the pad for a while and they came back and I was rather upset but, which led to me being replaced, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Yeah, I was upset, anyway, the next day Colonel Lucas had me come with him and we went back to the rear and we talked to my commander and, I got to talk to my commander, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: It was, he was gonna replace me and he did, he had another captain come in, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Andahe, Ray Williams, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: My boss, the S3 advised against it because it was a rough area but anyway he sent me back with this guy and I was gonna train him into my job and when I was happy he was able to do it, then I was to come back to work with the S3, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we were there for a day or two I don’t know, several days and it became apparent to me that I didn’t have enough time in country and that’s what I told my boss, I said sir I don’t have enough time in country to get this guy back to where he ought to be, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, but anyway I turn my stuff over to him and, and we went, I went back to the battalion headquarters, assistant S3, Interviewer: Alright, and so are you, is this at Camp Eagle or Evans? Veteran: Evans, Interviewer: Okay, you’re in Evans, alright, Veteran: So I'm back at Evans, and assistant S3 assigning fires that kind of stuff, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Not much happened, same, same kind of thing happened, (4:00) Interviewer: But did you, were you aware of Ripcord being set up or what were you, Veteran: I'm aware of it but I wasn’t out there, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Now you’re talking on the phone, on the radio, Interviewer: Right, �Veteran: Radio contact, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: With people you weren’t, wasn’t out there, Interviewer: Yup Veteran: Wasn’t flying around, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: So I was aware that being set up and I was aware of assigning fires and the whole thing but, not, nothing specific, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: After a while, after a while we had the incident on fire support base Henderson, where the brigade commander Colonel Bradley and his S3, Major Tex Turner, the artillery liaison officer, Captain Hopkins, Fred Hopkins, and the Sergeant Major and I think his name was Long or Longest, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I'm not, I'm not sure of his name but they went in there and they were hit with a mortar round and the Sergeant Major was killed and Fred was wounded, he had a bad wound on lower leg, and was basically medevacked, that would have been the third of May I’ve been told, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t remember dates, but that, that happened apparently on the third of May, and if you read the, Hopkins, Chuck Hawkins wrote an article for the VFW, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I believe it’s for VFW about Ripcord, he left out the artillery officer totally, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I confronted with him, confronted him with that during this meeting, he said well I probably left a lot of people out and the significance of him leaving that out is that Fred was part of the party, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: That came out with Colonel Bradley, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: So, leaving him out is significant, (6:00) Veteran: whereas if he’d been out there as part of the artillery out there, it would be coincidental, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, same round that killed, that killed the Sergeant Major wounded, wounded Fred, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I went over there and it was right after it happened so it would have been probably the fourth of May, they sent me over there, and then I, I was the Artillery Liaison with the third brigade until I rotated back to the states, well I left and I can’t tell you exactly when, perhaps three or four days before so somewhere probably the twenty-forth, the twenty-fifth of May, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: I'm guessing I don’t remember correctly, Interviewer: Alright Veteran: I know the day after I left, the day was, was, it was one year exactly, twenty-nine May, and I left, Interviewer: Okay, now were there any other kind of significant actions or things that went on that you were providing support for or was it just mostly small or routine engagements? Veteran: Well we, it was, you’re, when you’re dealing with the Brigade Commander, you’re at a different level or course, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: I don’t know I wasn’t following as closely what was happening on Ripcord, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I know that was going on and that was a big part of the entire brigades’ efforts, Interviewer: Right, �Veteran: I do know we went back to Brad, to Interviewer: Henderson? Veteran: Henderson, and I was explained what happened and pretty much the same story over and over again, but went back there, it was, its secondhand knowledge and I could tell you what they said which is slightly different then than the version I hear going around, (8:01) Veteran: But, nevertheless, it essentially alright, then we, we had a, an insertion, I'm not sure what we were gonna do but it was in the Co Chien River, there was a sandbar in the edge of the river and we’re flying around and they decide they wanna put and insertion right there on that sandbar, and I'm trying to find an artillery, do an artillery prep, it’s out of my normal amount of range with not communicating with the regular artillery battalion, so I ended up having to find somebody to do that, I think pretty sure the ARVN’s did that out of, out of Dong Ha or somewhere up there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t really remember what happened that, when they did artillery prep is, they blew the sandbar away, so they had to land on the, the banks of the river, it was just right by the banks of the river anyway, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They, they did that getting serious okay, Interviewer: I wonder why you would insert on a sandbar, not sure what that would accomplish Veteran: Who knows, I mean who knows if there's mines on it, who knows anything about it, Interviewer: Yup Veteran: And to do an artillery prep, maybe it was a, anyway the artillery prep blew it away, Interviewer: Yup, Veteran: So it wasn’t an issue anymore, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Let me think was there anything else that happened, I don’t, I really, it was really fairly routine, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Colonel Bradley was fixing to leave and he was talking about leaving and going back to Maine, turns out he didn’t go back to Maine, he went to Florida and became a real estate mogul or something and, Tex Turner, I don’t know what, I know he went to the, to the Ranger school for a while he was coming out of the Ranger school, I don’t know what else he did, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And he’s retired now and last I heard he was in, in Virginia (10:00) Veteran: And we, near Williamsburg somewhere in there, Interviewer: Alright, so now you’re heading out of Vietnam, Veteran: Out of Vietnam, Interviewer: Where do you go, Veteran: We go, alright so my, I'm in Vietnam and I go to Camp Eagle, I flew down there, report to DIVARTY, and you’re processed out and you get on a truck to go to someplace else and maybe Da Nang, Interviewer: Probably Da Nang if it’s a truck, Veteran: I don’t really remember, I remember going and it’s kinda a blur, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But we went down the road, one thing I do remember, there were some other, there were some NCOs who were on the same truck and the NCOs were talking to oother NCOs and talking about how they, they were too old to have been in the field you know they were just too old, they're probably near thirty, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, thirty to me is not old, thirty is rather prime, but and I'm thinking to myself it probably had something to do with that yellow strip down your back rather than your age, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Nevertheless, I didn’t say anything and we went on, we got down there and you had to report in and when, I left out of Cam Ranh Bay, and we went to Cam Ranh Bay and I, you had to show up for the manifest, if your name was called you went on and processed out whatever the �rest of it was, and so but you showed up for the next manifest when the next plane was coming, so I had some time, I went over the sand, sand dunes and went out on the beach in Cam Ranh Bay, it was pretty neat, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You could walk probably half a mile only to be wait deep in the water, very shallow, came back made the next manifest and came home, Interviewer: Alright now, Veteran: Flew, flew to Osaka Japan I don’t know why we went there but, (12:00) Veteran: That’s where we were, you know if the duty-free shop bought some stuff for my wife and, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Came on and we went to Seattle, SeaTac, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We were processed in and we walk into this room and an NC, E6 NCO comes in wearing a, this right shoulders to his left shoulder, he’s got this hundred and first patch, he starts giving us this stateside verbiage that, y’all a lot of, hate to think think cause it irritates me every time I think about it, I wanted to go home, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t want any trouble and I want to go home, this guy starts with this, this verbiage talking to officers and everybody else about we had our sleeves rolled up and in stateside you don’t roll your sleeves up okay, so we’re in out jungle fatigues but we got our sleeves rolled up like we do, yeah okay, all he had to do was tell us we’re to roll them down and I'm just come back from a combat zone and I really wanted to kill a person, alright that’s what I really wanted to do, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Or at least give him a punch or two, but I didn’t do that so we get processed out, so how you treat people and they weren’t treating us very well, you were treated better in Vietnam, it, it made a difference in Vietnam I mean you have to say that, anyway I got a flight home and, and came back home, my next assignment was Fort Sill, I went to the artillery advanced course there, most of the, I knew a lot of the captains, we’d been together, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: In Vietnam so, let’s see Ben King was there, (14:00) Veteran: Ben Phillips, Quigley, Mark Quigley, and feels like there were one or two more, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I’d been with in Vietnam, we’re in the same advance course class and got through that and I was assigned to, I went to 3rd of the 7th, eight-inch howitzer artillery in, in Nuremburg Germany, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Which was probably a mistake, but it was, you look back and see it’s a mistake and you don’t see it looking forward, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They’d been deprived during the Vietnam era because everything went to Vietnam, Interviewer: Right Veteran: And so things were not in great shape and the commander was not a great commander, he was a helicopter pilot, when I got there Patton had just been on there, Patton the, they have a lot of small bases around Major towns or they did at that era, and so a movie would go into one and go to the next one and the next one and you know, anyway Patton had just been on that base, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the Colonel and, and the ma-, XO, his Major it was, his, shadow, shadows a good word right, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: His shadow both had swagger sticks, okay you can imagine this now right, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They got swagger sticks and he was an interesting tour, Interviewer: What was the attitude of German civilians toward Americans at this point? And this more radical, �Veteran: They didn’t really care much for us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was, they were tolerant, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Mostly tolerant, (16:00) Veteran: Sometime while we were over there, they were making a movie about Hitler in Munich, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the actor who was playing Hitler walked down the street and people stood and saluted, I know why, okay, Interviewer: Wow Veteran: Now, that wasn’t everybody, but it was interesting, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was interesting, anyway we got by fine there was, there was some attitude, overall, we got, one of the problems, actually one of the problems you have, we had in Germany was that the people speak English, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We didn’t speak much German, so you end up learning a little GI German, where did we live there, let me think about that, first time, the second time, I have to sort through where we lived, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Because I was there, the first time I was there was in Wurzburg, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We started out, started out in, on the economy, then we moved, I started out, started out in the upstairs, an upstairs apartment from a German, it was about twenty miles away from, from base, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I mean it was a fairly long drive but it’s what you could find, if the Germans, Germans like to rent to Americans because they would move on, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Germans once they rented, they had a more or less a contract, until they got ready to move, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So in a sense they like to do, anyway we get, we did that and then I had another apartment, I found another apartment and the landlady didn’t like our little dog okay, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: She was afraid of dogs, she did, they’d use dogs against them some, she’d seen that happen somewhere during the war, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (18:00) Veteran: Anyway, so we ended up, ended up moving to a different apartment and we were there for a while and then, didn’t plan on going into quarters but we were offered quarters and we did go in and lived on base there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was about a couple of blocks from where I worked, a lot more convenient, didn’t have to worry about the heat, I mean, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Everything’s covered, Interviewer: Right Veteran: So I was in, we were in Merrell barracks and Merrell barracks was built by Hitler to, Nuremburg Germany, too, for the SS troops to control the crowds during the Nuremburg Rallies, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And he had, he built it out of brick, it was built out of brick, well-engineered, it was built to be faced with marble later, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Because you had deep windows that were faced in marble and they were gonna face it later with marble and of course that never happened, in the chapel they still had decorations and chapels still had swastikas around the edge of the floor, Interviewer: Uhm Veteran: Well you say uhm but swastika is an ancient symbol, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Of good luck and then you can find those in Jewish temples, Interviewer: Yeah, you can find then in the oven Veteran: Yes, so it, but that was there so it was a Nazi symbol Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: And that was Merrell barracks, it was an interesting place it was not a terribly great tour, but it worked out, Interviewer: Okay, what, I don’t what’s the caliber of the enlisted personnel that you had, we’re kind of getting into that post-Vietnam era, Veteran: Well we were, I was, it was post-Vietnam for me, but Vietnam was still going on, Interviewer: Still going on, but we were Veteran: People that were there who were still a draft army, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Still had a bunch of people and the drug culture was coming on, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Brought on probably initially in Vietnam but they had, we had problems (20:00) Veteran: With it over there, we had no tests for it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Cause this is before you could test for, for marijuana or any other drugs, Interviewer: There’s a point when heroin becomes a real problem and its, Veteran: I don’t know when heroin become a problem, but I know we had everything that, we had more than just marijuana, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: But everything started with marijuana, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And you’d get fresh kids in and they would, oh I'm gonna be straight I'm gonna be straight, you get them in and, and the three weeks later they were smoking pot, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And it was the culture that we had, I had a guy who went to a bar, several of them went to a bar, and they broke a window, a glass pane in the door in the bar and left, they were, had been drinking they were, he was pretty much too drunk to feel the pain, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They walked back to the, to the barracks, this is at night and the MPs, when they call the MPs they followed the blood trail to Merrell barracks and when they came into Merrell barracks, they had the CQ guy cause they were afraid to go into the barracks, this is MPs, Army MPs, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Alright, that’s the culture we were dealing with, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Does that make sense to you, you probably haven’t seen that but that’s, Interviewer: Well I knew actually I’ve talked to some people who were in Germany, kind of in that period at times there were definitely discipline problems, Veteran: There were, there were discipline problems and you couldn’t get anything done really you couldn’t, it, it was a major problem that, maintenance was a major, I think I mentioned maintenance once before, the military, the Army had sold out to a maintenance program that didn’t work, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, and we had a, maintenance Warrant Officer (22:00) Veteran: Who was a good, probably a very good sergeant but he wasn’t a good maintenance Warrant Office and that unit he was, that was for us, we were the lower echelon and he was an echelon above, we were supposed to be able to send things to him to be fixed, the only thing I ever saw them fix was the commander’s Jeep and their vehicle, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Which is a Jeep, alright, that’s the only thing I ever saw them fix period, you had to turn something in to get it fixed, you had to have everything there and they go by and inspect and then you might not get it back with everything on it, all the parts on it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Because they were prone to scavenge, to keep their two little vehicles running, it was a nightmare, Interviewer: So what was your actual job there? Veteran: I was a battery commander to start with, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: As a battery commander I didn’t do a great job at it, I have to admit, I did what I could do, we came in and I was supposed to be alpha battery commander, an alpha battery was okay, bravo battery had been, was the disciplined battery, Interviewer: Oh Veteran: Everybody you needed discipline, didn’t fit in got put in bravo battery, the other thing was we technically I had a hundred people there, full complement, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I could only control, I only had control of about fifty five to fifty six of them, so you looking on paper it looks like you’re all there so why can’t you do and, let me tell you something, you cannot do one hundred percent of the job all the time with half the people, Interviewer: So where, Veteran: You cannot maintain that for a long period of time, �Interviewer: So were the other people there or doing something else? Veteran: We were not at full strength by any means, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: So none of it was full strength, (24:01) Veteran: The maintenance system, you couldn’t get parts, getting parts was a big problem, we couldn’t get support, we had in our howitzers, eight-inch howitzers have the same engine transmission that a Greyhound bus has okay, Greyhound buses run, our engines didn’t, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And when our engines didn’t run you can’t get there, you can’t move shoot and communicate, Interviewer: Right Veteran: So we could shoot, we could communicate so so better, but moving was a real problem and our, we couldn’t, we weren’t supposed to change the powerpack, engine transmission that came together and was a big unit, we weren’t supposed to do that a the battery level, but at the battery level we didn’t do that we had down ve-, down weapons, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: so we end up doing that at the battery level I mean, out of necessity, there was a maintenance company on the, on the base and one of the things they had, I had to go through, in the interim between, go, before I went over there was go to Fort Knox and we had a, a class it was a several week or two on maintenance, Knox was the big maintenance, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: Thing, and I went to that and they said yeah go talk to the Warrant Officer he’d be glad to, happy to see ya, I went and talked to the guy when I first got there, went and talked to the guy, he talked to our Motor Warrant, our Motor Warrant talked to our Battalion Commander, our Battalion Commander told me not to do that again okay, even when I said it exactly like that but that’s what it came down to, well you’re gonna mess up the relationships we got going, (26:00) Veteran: We didn’t have a relationship alright, we didn’t have a reala-, relationship, and I was nice with the guy, I wasn’t being ugly or anything I just wanted to introduce myself then when I �was there, I need, that wasn’t the way he took it, oh well, now you like special, I like special forces a lot better because, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: If that had happened with Special Forces, we’d just have it out and it’d been over when one of us walked away and the other one may or may not have, anyway, different, Interviewer: Special Forces might have more of an interest in getting the job done too, Veteran: Special Forces was, is a good organization that they do and they’re dedicated and they got, that’s one of the things, one of the better things I've done, when I got out of OCS I applied for Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces, and didn’t get it, I did that several times, didn’t get it, ended, ended up there so Interviewer: So when do you finish up the tour in Germany? Veteran: Well I wasn’t, I went, that’s not quite the end of it so, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: When I left there, and I was there for a year as a battery commander and went, was the S2 intel, Intel Security Officer, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we changed Commanders, battery, Battery Commanders, so when, in, when classified material came in I had to sign for it okay, and I had to show it to the Battalion Commander and he wanted me, the guy that came in was you can trust me guy guy, alright, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I'm the battery, Battalion Commander and you can trust me so I don’t need to sign for it, bullshit I'm signing for it, I can’t just leave it with you, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway we had a little bit of a rile over that but, and I'm not a, and have never been a yes-man so anyway, (28:00) Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: We got through that, I ended up, that’s when I got, no its not, I went to VII Corps artillery working in the S3 shop and I worked there for a while and I was just an S3, I was the nuclear NRASS, nuclear release authentication system officer for them and, Interviewer: What does that mean? Veteran: There's a system, you can’t, we have nuclear weapons, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Alright, the nuclear weapons are locked away, we don’t tell people that but they’re locked away, but you have to have authority to use them, you have to, that’s the President, comes from the President down through the Air Force to the Army, Air Force through chain, it’s not chain of command its indirect chain of command, but we have to have it and if that part went through the Air Force, and down and there's a, an authentication system and there are devices on the weapons that have to be, you have to be, have two parts, two parts, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Of the combination to open, to be able to use them and you have to have two different people and your authentication system to open the correct cards and its, its complicated, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But that’s the way it works, anyway I was responsible for training and for testing for run around that and other things, we ended up being rifted from, from there, I was in, from Nuremburg Germany to Stuttgart Germany, we were living on the economy there and got rifted and went back home, (30:01) Interviewer: Explain, so you usually see that word as “riffed” rather than rifted but explain what that means, Veteran: Because of the reduction in force the, the Army has set levels of office, officers to enlisted, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And so when thy reduce the size of the Army they reduce the size of the Officer Corps, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And there had been I think, I think mine was the fifth RIF that they had had and I got, when I was notified of it and there's no recourse really, got a little stamps with, with Pentagon �stamped on your papers, no, they’ve reviewed it and its done so you’re out basically, so I was an Officer, a Reserve Officer on active duty without a college degree, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And now my source of commission was OCS, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And all those things counted against staying in, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And so I was out, Interviewer: Would they have allowed you to stay as a sergeant or was that not an option? Veteran: I could have gone back, I could have gone back as an E5, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: When you report to OCS, you’re, you’re promoted to E5, I could have gone back to that and I declined okay, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So I, I was out and I went to, went back to school, decided, with my wife and I went to the library one day, we were looking to get, kept hearing rumors of more riffs, more riffs coming along and sat down and looked through some career publications and trying to see, if I'm rifted what am I gonna do, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And one of the things I wanted to do is, was be a veterinarian, my grandfather was a real, he was a cow doctor he wasn’t really a certified veterinarian but a late doctor, (32:01) Veteran: And I decided that’s what I wanted to do, so I went, when I got out I went back to school, went to Clemson for year and got the prerequisites and I did well, I applied myself and did well and I had, my, my wife told me later she didn’t really want me to be accepted to go through, to be a veterinarian, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Because of the, it’s the hardship in your own school, �Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: How much money in the, but I got accepted, I had, so I had one shot at it, one shot at being a veterinarian and I got accepted so then I spent four years at the University of Georgia, I was a year at Clemson and I took animal industries which taught me a lot, it was, I didn’t grow up on a farm, I had both my grandparents were farmers but I wasn’t, we lived in town in Spartanburg anyway, I went to Clemson and then I went to University of Georgia for four years and learned to be a veterinarian and when I graduated from there I went to Junaluska Animal Hospital in Waynesville area of North Carolina, mountains of North Carolina, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Practiced there two years and then I went to South Carolina and went into a partnership with a guy, called him a three P veterinarian, Interviewer: Means? Veteran: Which means he cures everything with penicillin, panel log, and prednisone, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Three P veterinarian, now you could treat a lot with those three things I’ll grant you but there are multiple other things and not a very progressive person, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Okay, he had been there a long time and then when he graduated that was the degree, was veterinary medicine, it wasn’t for us it was a doctorate, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (34:00) Veteran: So you had to have at least two years of undergraduate, most people had four, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So when, when I completed my veterinary degree I went back and applied for a degree when I completed the work, I applied for a degree from Clemson and I got it, so my, I graduated from Clemson in April and then Georgia in May, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It’s a moth apart because of the graduation dates anyway, so I have a DVM, went to Junaluska, went back to, went to Union South Carolina and practiced, started out in a partnership �and then ended up being a sole practitioner and a, a year before that I had gotten back on Reserve, back in the Reserve, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: To make, to build time for retirement and they called me one day, they were looking for active-duty veterinarians and I was burned out from veterinary practice, I lived a mile away from my practice and every night I would leave it, 5:30 or 6 o’clock when I could get away, closed at five, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: 5:30 to 6:00 when I could get away and have calls to go back every night okay, I changed my hours one time, moved it from five to six, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I sat there from five to six and then had the same thing happen, so I changed it back, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: if it’s not going to help me, why bother anyway, I, I went back in as a veterinarian into veterinary corps and my first assignment was a 10th Special Forces group, I had wanted to be Special Forces before and didn’t get in, Interviewer: Okay, now what year was this that you’re going back in? Veteran: 1984, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: ’84 to ’87 I was with the Special Forces group, (36:00) Interviewer: Okay and where were they based? Veteran: Fort Devens Massachusetts, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: So I wasn’t jump qualified, so I had to go back to jump school now at this point I’m forty years old, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And I went to jump school and broke my ankle on me forth jump, I spent three months in a cast, about three months, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I jumped again and got my fifth jump on the third of April and jumped into Fort Lewis Washington on Saturday the sixth of April, which is my birthday, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: When you jump after being broken you, it still makes you a little antsy, but we got through it, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: It was interesting jumping into Fort Lewis because its, it was turned out to be a rough drop zone, there were hillocks and they, and I picked out one of those and was looking at, I had a broke, had the broken ankle before so trimalleolar fracture was a fairly serious thing, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Fortunately they didn’t have to go in and mess with it, it was a closed, so I didn’t, it wasn’t an open fracture, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It was closed and so I didn’t have to, I healed better than I would have done if, if pinned things and done that, Interviewer: So they could just hold it in place with a cast and, Veteran: With a cast yes, yes, Interviewer: So why were you jumping into Fort Lewis? Was this, Veteran: It was a way to get there in part, we, the National, National Air Guard from Rhode Island or, would fly us out there and if we had a jump at the far end, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So we loaded into a C-130 and flew out there and we spent one night in Fargo, North Dakota, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (38:00) �Veteran: Then went out there and jumped in, and what we were going there for is there had, part of the training, part of the medical section and the medical section is involved with training for the 18 deltas who were refresher training that kind of stuff, and we wanted to send people to a mountain medical course put on by University New Hampshire and they saw that there was a school called mountain medicine course being given at Fort Lewis Washington, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And what it turned out to be, there was a medical battalion there and this was a getaway for them, a treat for them to go up on the mountain and campout, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They hadn’t expected us to do that but anyway, we went, it was a great fun time, we got a little bit of medicine and some cross country skiing and some downhill skiing and that was a, being from South Carolina I did not have a lot of experience skiing, didn’t have any experience skiing, Interviewer: So what do either the Army or the Special Forces have need of a veterinarian for? Veteran: I'm glad you asked, I was hoping you would ask that question, you know of course that the Special Forces is engaged in guerrilla warfare, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We took care of the gorillas, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We took care of the gorillas, Interviewer: As in Africa ape gorillas, as opposed to, Veteran: You didn’t get the joke, Interviewer: People with submachine guns? Veteran: No, no its what do we really did, I told that once to, to a General, we went through a receding line and he asked the same question, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: What, after the receding line, well we take care of the gorillas, anyway, it was a, what we really did is, is anything to do with food stuff we took care of, �(40:01) Veteran: Anything to do with animals, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Use them as pack animals and other things, how they ended up and how they ended up with a slot for a veterinarian in the Special Forces groups was out of World War two and when the y formed tenth group, tenth group was the first one formed and was formed as a stay behind to, so when Europe was overrun tenth group was going to be there in Flint Kaserne Germany to organize the resistance and the first soldiers were predominantly people who had been in World War two, they were Foreign Nationals, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They had been in the resistance movements over there and they had used pack animals so when they looked at the tam on knee, they said where’s the veterinarian, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So that’s how they got the veterinarian in, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: When they use them a lot, it turned out to be a good thing because of the use of the military working dogs now, the military working dogs has become, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: A big program throughout the military not just Special Forces and not just the Army, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So that’s been a, been a boom, but we did, we do food inspections we did, I did a lot of things, I was also their Preventive Medicine Officer and it was a time when the, the medical department would not provide an MD to be a Preventative Medicine Officer so I did that as well, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I had just did it, and did a lot of inspections and a lot of training stuff like that to do, but then the other thing I did while I was there was, I went to the Special Forces Qualification course and the Officer, Officer Branch, Officer part of them, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (42:00) �Veteran: At Fort Bragg and got through that have a long tab, from there, from, from tenth group I went to a-med advance course, I’d been to the artillery advance course but that didn’t count because I was an a-med and so I went to a-med advance course and from there I went to be the OIC of the UK and Ireland Division of Veterinary Attachment Europe, and it’s a TDA, was at that time I was there, it was a TDA, not a TONE, Interviewer: Did you have, Veteran: A Table of Distribution and Allowances Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: TDA, TONE, Table of Organization, Organization and Equipment, so more, most units, the real units in the Army, the permanent units in the Army are TONE’s, Interviewer: Okay this is similar to what they used to call TDY, the Temporary Deployment, Veteran: No, TDY is when you go someplace, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: And, temporary duty, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: This is, this is more or less permanent, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: But it, haven’t even been there I don’t know how long but it, it’s a Table of Distribution Allowances, you’ve got a mission that doesn’t fit in with, with a TONE unit, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: You’re not a field unit, we were not a field unit instead, well we did what I did, I had twenty six people that worked for me and England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland, and they, they, twenty six people to, two civilians and I had two veterinarians that worked for me, part of the problem was that it had never been properly organized, (44:01) Veteran: To function that way, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And so we had to basically two missions, the missions were to do the inspections, fulfill the role of the USDA and the FDA for offshore procurement of UF, foodstuff, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That was one mission and the other was taken care of military working animals and the civilian pets, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So when I got there, there was an OIC and there was a one veterinarian in charge of the food inspection and the other one was in charge of the, the animal, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Part of it, and the one in charge of the animal part of it was doing the pet, they made a circuit where you would go to different bases, took him a week and he, during that time he was away one night, spent one night away from home every week, the second week he was supposed to be taking care of the military working dogs, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: In Britain because of the rabies quarantine, the military working dogs are owned by the RAF, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But they're in use, what happens is, it was an agreement between the Air Force and the RAF, Royal Air Force that they would get the dog when a handler would come in, they would get the dog for the duration of the handler’s time there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And it would go back to the RAF, and for that we gave them $40,000, okay, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We took care of it all the way, everything else and that was a big issue because there had been a letter written by the, the Chief of Security for the Brit-, American Air Force there out of Mildenhall, because they weren’t getting the support, (46:00) Veteran: Veterinary support they needed, and so this veterinarian that came in that was there when I got there, his thing was well do we own those dogs, I had a quick answer for him, yes, we do we get them everything they need just like they’re ours, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then he had a big, to-do about being away from home and his child growing up without him, I had been in veterinary practice in the states and living in the same house with my children and you’re called away so much that you really almost grow up without knowing them, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Because you don’t spend, can’t spend a lot of time, so I didn’t have a lot of sympathy for the guy, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: He also did not have a, did not have a, a veterinary license, he flunked the National Board, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: And they, at one point you didn’t have to have a license, but they started having, requiring all veterinarians to have a license in some state, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And he didn’t have one, so the OIC was allowing him to have Saturdays off so he could study for his boards, you know he did, I really believe he studied, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: For his boards, he also had the other OIC had a problem with him in that the Australian trench coat, the one with the cape and the slouch hat, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: He decided that’s what he was gonna wear, where we were supposed to be wearing our instruction said we dressed like the, with a coat and tie like the business population, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay, and this is what he wore around and the other guy didn’t like it, but he didn’t do anything about it either (48:00) Veteran: And I was a quick fix, you can’t wear that anymore, well everybody likes it, well this is not Australia, you don’t fit in with the population, you can’t wear that anymore, and the other �one, our, our Dr. Fairichild, Sharon Fairichild, she was in charge of food inspection and they had a list in, we were not computer, were not a great on computers, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Beginning of the computers stuff, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Had a word processor and you know the old tractor feed paper, Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: Okay, there was a, a list of initial inspections that were required that were behind, was that long, I don’t know how many it was, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: A bunch because you know it’s very, a lot of inspections and both veterinarians were paranoid about the OIC, had a right to be because the OIC was not totally fair either frankly, Interviewer: Alright so where are you in the chain, are you below the OIC? Veteran: I'm waiting, I'm waiting for the OIC to leave, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: And I took over, Alright so how long a period was that? Veteran: It turned out to be a, a month or so, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Longer than normal, longer than it should have been, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But I got to see Carl, Carl Berryman, and things like he would degrade the British, British are blah-blah-blah-blah, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then put on his little hat and his little, do I look British, this guy’s crazy alright, �Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Come on, it’s a lot of crazy people in the world but you know why do I keep running into all of them, anyway he finally left and we, we separate things out, (50:01) Veteran: My Commander, it was in Germany, was a full, full Colonel, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Full bird Colonel, he had his own little hang-ups too, he had, we had four TDAs, we had one we were operating on, we had one that should have been and we had, it kept, you never knew really what the real TDA was but what I found out was until I got somebody on the ground, when I went in I had orders for Lakenheath, and Lakenheath is not where we were, we were in RAF West Ruislip down by London, but whoever wrote the things didn’t know this and I found out that it, it, until they got on the ground I could move people around, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And get away with it, I'm not sure it was legal, but it worked, so I put people where they needed to be, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And so the twenty-six people that I had were all in, in one- and two-man assignments they were out there on the civilian slaughterhouses, slaughterhouses and you know inspection points, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Different places, it was a, a challenging job, it was one of the better jobs I've had, and I enjoyed it, I was on the road though all the time I needed another veterinarian, I ended dividing the territory into three sections, two had veterinarians in charge and they did everything, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Food inspection, and military, and working dogs, the dog work and the food inspection work, and the third one I didn’t have a veterinarian for, we didn’t do the, the animal care there and we didn’t have the, the mission, didn’t have working dogs, Interviewer:Mm-hmm Veteran: And we didn’t do civilian dogs and that was mostly Navy up north, (52:00) �Veteran: and I ended up doing a lot of that, I did all of it really, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Scotland and Ireland, went to Wales several times, interesting, interesting stuff in its own right, went down to, in England down to Cornwall down, the western, southwestern, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Part of England, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And there was a Marine base down there and they wanted me to come in and inspect some, some MREs that they had stored in a little hut, been stored there like three years old or something, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They were old, anyway I did the inspection and what I found was that they were, they had been temperature abuse, I mean they were, there was no heat no anything, they'd just been sitting there for a long period of time and so I condemned them and that hit because I condemned those they had to go back, veterinary corps had to go back and recheck that whole lot which is worldwide, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Cause a little bit of a wave but heck with it, hats what my job was, Interviewer: Almost three years old anyway Veteran: Yeah what the heck, yeah nobody like to eat, it should have, they should have been eating them in rotating them out, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But they didn’t anyway, but we would go in and I would do inspections, initial inspections so in and inspect plants, we did, they were trying to get the milk suppliers under the, our, FDA’s milk plan, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And, and then they were trying to get everything to fall under the FDA’s plan for, for fluid milk, which is not, we didn’t have a lot for ultra-high temperature pasteurization, �(54:00) Veteran: So what they did in Germany, this is our full bird Colonel, nice guy but still had his quirks, but his ruling over there, what they did over there is they pasteurized it first, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: With HTST, high temperature short time pasteurization which is what most of our milk over here is, and then they ran it through the, the ultra-high temperature of pasteurization so your pasteurizing it twice and we did not have that option and most of the plants, the plants are, are, were very modern the HTST plants, high temperature short time plants, most of them in Britain were run by computers and what the, our plan in the US pasteurization requires a, a pump to be timed and set and wired set so it won’t change the output, well if you don’t have that you don’t have that pump and your pump is, is not a fixed volume pump, what we ended up doing was using the pasteurization, the pasteurizer as the pump, to set the volume, but in the, the British plants many of them, the guy sitting on the, on the floor supervising the milk going through he got too much blown back, too much wasn’t, didn’t meet the pasteurization qualifications, he could change the temperature, and we couldn’t allow that, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We had, had to go through the pasture, it was, it was very interesting I thought, (56:00) Interviewer: You learn all sorts of things in the military, Veteran: You learn things you had no idea you would ever needed to know, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: One of the worst things we had to do was inspect eggs, and the reason it was a bad job was because we have a different standard in the US, we wash eggs, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And reoil them, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Over there they don’t, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So you had dirty eggs, people complain about dirty eggs, well you have to think about this guys, guy gets up at three in the morning to be there by six and they wondering when they �start out, he’s got a bunch of eggs they tell him how many he has, how many cases he has to inspect, the plant people pull those cases out of the lot and they run them through the machine and you’re looking and you pick out and you get so they don’t pass, they get one free relook, so you go out and come back in an hour and they're supposed to be reworking these eggs you know, they don’t, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You come back in an hour and you inspect another batch and they don’t pass and then they can call the contracting officer, not the veterinarian but the contracting officer and give them another look, so you’re working about, you start out at three in the morning you’re working about three four in the afternoon and it’s about time to go home, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And you’re tired anyway and they pass them just because they really haven’t been reworked, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: A lot of interesting thing I learned about food inspection and things like that, go into a plant and you seen the thing on the news where somebody is licking an ice cream, don’t know if you’ve seen it or not, so fat its going on and put it on YouTube where they go a store take it out, a carton of ice cream, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Take the top off lick it put the top back on put it back in, Interviewer: Ewe Veteran: No lie, well one place we went you went in and there was chocolate and they written something in the chocolate, (58:01) Veteran: Okay, well you can’t have that stuff, this is not, this is not right, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway that was a relook, Interviewer: Alright back out of this a little, how long did you spend in England? Veteran: Two years, �Interviewer: Okay and when do you finish that duty? Veteran: I came back to University of Georgia, I applied for a long-term civilian education, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I applied for a PhD program well I got into that and went back to University of Georgia and in the department I was in, not the school but the department they required you to have a master’s degree which I didn’t have so my major professor said go ahead and start and I will talk them out of this, well he lied, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So I got a masters and a PhD in three years and five months and the reason its three years and five months, about a year out I saw I wasn’t gonna make my deadline, so I asked for a six-month extension but instead of having me report on the last day of six-month they had me report on the first day of the six-month so I didn’t get, but I got it done, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I went on so, Interviewer: Alright so what field did you do the, Veteran: Microbiology, Interviewer: Okay, alright and what were you gonna do with that? Veteran: Actually what I did with that is I went into, went to work for a Walter Reed Institute of Research and HIV research, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It sound interesting sounds important and it is but its like Trivial Pursuit they’ve already looked for all the obvious things and so they, so and I went to lots of meeting, I met all the famous researchers and other than that I can’t say I, I personally accomplished a great deal toward the, but you’re looking at, at small things that we still don’t have a good vaccine for, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: For prevention, I was working at the area I was working in was a vaccine for the prevention, (1:00:02) Veteran: Of HIV, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I was not the, the lab animal veterinarian but I ended up doing that, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We had a civilian contractor who got another job and quit, and I was the only veterinarian on staff, and I ended up doing lab animal vet for a while through that so, interesting stuff, Interviewer: Okay are you doing that at that point as a civilian or are you still in the military? Veteran: I'm in the military, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: And then I hit twenty years and I had to retire, had to retire going active duty and I already been passed over for a Lieutenant Colonel so I, I decided to retire, Interviewer: Alright, now tape number three is about up, Veteran: Oh my gosh what’s our time doing, three thirty okay, Interviewer: So we’re gonna stop it cause I, *Screen goes black* Interviewer: Okay so we are kind of working through your veterinary career, Veteran: Right, Interviewer: In the military at this point I think you have been talking about how you were involved with HIV research and wound up supervising lab animals and so forth, and when did you finish that particular stent? Veteran: That was 1996, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: It was August, I got out of the military in August of ’96, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: About the, I think the first of August, �Interviewer: Okay, and then from there, Veteran: I went to the diagnostic lab in South Carolina, Clemson veterinary diagnostic lab in Pontiac or just outside of Columbia, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: I worked there for, for seven years as Supervisory Microbiologist, and we dealt with a lot of things, the lab was, had not had a Microbiologist in a few years and it needed it, a lot of corrections and those kinds of things, (1:02:02) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we moved into a new building which helped a lot but just finding creative way to get equipment was an interesting thing, Interviewer: So that’s kind of like being in the Army? Veteran: Very much like being in the Army, we all had an interesting thing happen though when I first got there, we, Salmonella Enteritdis had become an issue and we had an outbreak that the FDA, the USDA had done all the chicken work, egg work, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Prior to the and the FDA decided to take it over, they lost, lost funding for it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And FDA decided to take it over and so the first case the FDA did was in South Carolina there was a Mexican restaurant in Winder Georgia that they had to, customers had an outbreak in the egg source for that was a company in South Carolina, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And they found that, found the Salmonella in the Chile Riano, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: A Chilean egg and they would, it was temperature abused, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: But the Salmonella we traced back to the, to the company, and the thing about Salmonella Enteritdis is that we’ve had Salmonella and chickens all along, Salmonella grows at a little higher temperature, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Than normal, and the chickens have that higher temperature about 103, the difference in this one in the other Salmonella is that the others were in the gut and this would, would go in, invade the ovary, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And come out inside the egg, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: now not the outside of the egg, so that became an issue, we ended up writing a, an egg quality assurance plan for the industry in South Carolina and, and there were only five major producers, (1:04:01) Veteran: There might have been some backyard flocks, but these were all the commercial producers there were five of those who were in our plan, got it approved all voluntary and got it approved through the FDA, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Which was a major accomplishment because some of the other states, Pennsylvania had been working on it longer and didn’t, didn’t, we beat them to it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: To get the approval from the FDA, also when West Nile virus came through we, we coordinated with our department of health and environmental control and monitoring for the West Nile virus, interesting stuff, when I, I left there I went to work for a, 2003 I went to work for the Joint Special Operations Medic Training Center with a contract company, Global Services and it was the refresher training for 18 deltas, the Special Forces Medics, and I was the veterinarian to support that, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Group and other work as needed, Interviewer: Okay, at this point are you meeting people who’ve been Iraq and Afghanistan on missions like that? �Veteran: Oh yes, well the this I part of, yes, what we, the special, you go through the, the qcourse, the Special Forces Qualifications course to become an 18 delta and that’s a yearlong course, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And so there's a lot of surgical training maybe the Special Force’s makes are trained in surgery, trained as first responders and they use animal models, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: In their training and the animal model we used was goats, so my job was to be sure that the goats were not, did not suffer at all, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Follow all the rules and that everybody was following the rules, (1:06:02) Veteran: Which is kind of sometimes difficult with Special Force’s troops but, only, the only group that’s worse is MD’s okay, MD’s have no respect for animals I've learned this the hard way, but we get through that, I did that and I also taught classes they finally made this, converted that from a, a contract position to a government service position, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I did that from anyway, form 2000, 2003 to 2010 I was contractor 2010 to 2012, I was a GS Army GS 13, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then I transferred to the Air Force as an Air Force civilian and GS-13 and, Interviewer: Why did you make that switch? Veteran: Wait, one of the things in making a switch from a contractor to, to a GS that position put me under the military veterinarian, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the military veterinarians didn’t appreciate that, that you're a veterinarian, they think you're more like a slave or a technician and want to tell you how to do your work, it, they hired me for a veterinarian not a tech, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And that job came open and I took it and I was up, I never regretted taking it, I like the, working with the Air Force, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They had had one person doing that job and she was, she had a military career in the Army, I don’t know if she retired or not, but she was, didn’t get it off the ground really, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So I took it over and had lots of contacts and we got it going, (1:08:02) Veteran: In the Army we used goats as our model and this other one used pigs, you know there's, there's a lot regulation and paperwork, you have to plan it well in advance, has to have approval from everybody going its not just something you jump out and do and when we were doing animal model training it’s not random, you have a set protocol and this is what you do, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And you have, you really have to watch MD’s when they're doing that because they don’t like to follow rules, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Not like these Lieutenant Colonels, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Anyway, I did that until I retire in, in 2015, Interviewer: Alright, now, I guess if you look back over the whole thing and the time you spent in, in service, can you sum up I mean how you think that affected you or shaped you? Veteran: Everything, everything you do shapes you and it certainly did me, okay, I was quiet, shy, I tell people I was shy until I kissed the Blarney Stone but, which I did but too, I did kiss the Blarney Stone but I was, it was more what I did in the service and what you have to do that brought it out, brought me in a maturation if you will, it’s like being in Vietnam it makes you, it changes you, you don’t want it to change you but it changes you regardless, Special Forces training changed me going to the instructor course for the Special Forces they have an instructor course there and that helps train you a lot, how to present things and how to give classes so, Interviewer: Yeah, how do you think Vietnam affected you? �(1:10:01) Interviewer: If you look at that piece of things, Veteran: Vietnam effects, effects everybody you have a different outlook on life, there's a certain fatalism alright, part of the thing like going to jump school and everybody worries about, jumping out of airplanes but so what, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You got a parachute, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That’s, overcome your fear, I, it, I can say it certainly affected me alright, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I don’t, Interviewer: Yeah, but for you it’s really kind of one stage of many cause you had a whole series of different things, Veteran: I had a whole stage of, yes many different things I’ve done and you learn from each of them and each of them changes you somewhat, you can’t undo any of it, are there things I would have done differently, you, you bet there were, I recognize things too if I had not had a wife and a child I would probably be filling up a hole in Vietnam right now, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Alright, because you can become addicted to that, that adrenaline rush, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And things, the, the one job I would have extended for, I would not have extended for any of the jobs I had although the one I liked best was being the Liaison Officer but with the like second of the 506, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But the one job I would have extended for would have been to be an Infantry Company Commander, because they're the ones that do things, they're the ones that are in control, the Battalion Commanders not in control he may think he is but I mean he’s flying around at 10,000 feet trying to tell you on the ground what’s going on, he’s not in control, �(1:12:00) Veteran: Brigade Commanders from the Brigade Commander above they really didn’t know what they were doing, I don’t think, I didn’t know, didn’t know the Generals, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Had very little interaction with them, but brigade, the Battalion Commanders had some control, Interviewer: But they're not really leading men on the ground, Veteran: They're not leading men on, well I’ve been told some of them did, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Okay I’ve heard of some that did, Colonel Honeycutt if you read about him, I didn’t know him personally okay, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But if you read about him, he was, he was an on the ground kind of a guy and I just don’t know, Colonel Lucas was not, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: He liked the helicopter, Interviewer: Very much so, Veteran: He liked starched fatigues and shined shoes and airconditioned hooch, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright well since we are at a Ripcord reunion and we get back to that, Veteran: Right, Interviewer: Ill fainted Commander at the end I guess is probably a good place to wind up the interview, Veteran: I think it is, Interviewer: So thank you very much for sharing stories, Veteran: Okay, I gotta go get... (1:13:20) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HinesR2319V2 Title A name given to the resource Hines, Raymond (2 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-07-26 Description An account of the resource Raymond Hines was born on April 6, 1944 in Wellford, South Carolina, and graduated high school in 1962. Hines received his draft notice in 1965 and chose to enlist in the Army. He completed Basic Training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, where he became a Morse Intercept Operator. He also trained in Artillery OCS at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before transferring to Fort Bliss, Texas, as part of the Air Defense for only two months before being transferred to Wurzburg Germany. From Germany, Hines was deployed to Vietnam with the 2nd of the 319th as a Fire Direction Officer and proceeded to report to the Bravo Battery at Firebase Bastogne. He saw heavy combat with this unit. While in Vietnam, Hines also worked as an assistant S-3 fireman, and a Liaison Officer for the 2nd of the 506 at Fire Base Ripcord. After taking some additional advanced artillery courses, he deployed to Nuremberg Germany with the 3rd of the 70th House Artillery before transferring to the 7th Corps Artillery as a Nuclear Release Authentication System Officer. He would later return to Europe after recieveing his veterinarian degree in the United States to care for military service animals. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hines, Raymond Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d40063d897abb85ce9137e3dd240180.mp4 c542011c56061fea5fd1ebe66647c1ed https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d6d22cdf9f04a081add0ab02d83581ae.pdf a8218d49b9bd6490227280dff54df8fa PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Richard Hines World War II Total Time: 0:56:30 Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:16) • • • • Born in Bradley, Michigan on October 2, 1922. Went to Wayland High School and graduated in 1941. Father was a farmer and his grandfather was a depot agent for the Grand Rapids and Indianapolis Railroad. Father eventually followed his grandfather as a depot agent. Went to work, got married and was eventually drafted in February, 1943. Training (0:04:50) • • • • • Reported to Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan and was there for 2 days before he was shipped off for Fort Lewis, Washington. Was in basic at Fort Lewis for 13 weeks as an acting corporal, and was then sent to advanced basic training at Fort Lewis where he was a sergeant, he then went to Army Maneuvers in Louisiana near Camp Polk where he was the staff sergeant and section leader of the 81mm mortars. He was then sent to Camp Phillips in Kansas to POE. In basic, he was trained by a New York/New Jersey National Guard Unit. He got some time off with 3 day passes. Learned the skills to operate his mortar while he was in training. He explains how he fired his mortar with his team. Active Duty (0:16:20) • • • • • • • Their mortar company always backed up a rifle company. He carried a radio to direct his mortar section and sometimes a machine gun section. (0:23:35) Was sent to New York and was shipped out to Europe on a troop ship with 15,000 men. At one point, the ship was attacked by the Germans. Landed at Cherbourg, France on September 15th, 1944. Walked throughout most of his service. When he replaced the 315th Infantry Regiment, he happened to meet his cousin, who was in this unit. They were in Lunéville, France and stayed there for a couple of days. Remembers the people of France being very kind to them as they passed through the various villages along the way. Got to the front in September. There was only one circumstance that they could remember that their mortar team was involved in close combat. �• • • • • • • • • (0:35:50) In January, 1945 he got a battlefield promotion. During battle he was taken to regimental HQ, discharged from the Army, and then sworn straight back in and promoted to Second Lieutenant. This became when he was an observer and took on some other duties. After the Battle of the Bulge, his unit [324th Infantry Regiment, 44th Division] was moved to give reinforcement for Patton’s 3rd Army. (0:40:50) Followed up other units when he moved into Southern Germany. (0:42:00) Got into Ulm, Germany and only encountered only very little resistance. Passed on into Austria (0:45:30) Saw Germans as they were surrendering, remembers the Germans being very young. Their unit took varying casualty amounts. There were times where they took heavy casualties but this was not the normal case3 (0:50:00) Was in Europe for a month after the War ended before he shipped back to the US Shipped to Camp Campbell, Kentucky, and was then given 30 days terminal leave until he was discharged. Post-Service (0:55:08) • Worked in the Trucking business after he got back and raised a family. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hines, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hines, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Hines was born in 1922 in Bradley, Michigan, and served in the Army during World War II. During his time in the service, he worked as a mortar man in the 324th Regiment, 44th Division, eventually commanding a mortar company. He was in Europe, specifically Northern France and Germany. He spent some time in Europe after the War before he was discharged. He worked in the trucking industry. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-30 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HinesR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2874f30f4ec04415fb0a8f2bec044ea.mp4 d8794ee77bc84b87fbcf3ebb7d309325 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ed4085939fb958dbbd2b54f866315aae.pdf 5ec92afa308fe749aeb0bc2f08fee8b2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee: Morris Hinken Length of Interview: 01:13:33 Disc 1 Background:  Mr. Hinken was born in Ottawa County, in Allendale, Michigan, in 1922.  He grew up living on his family farm until he went to work at Michigan Bell Telephone Company in 1940.  He only went through two years of high school.  Before he worked at the phone company, he worked on the farm. They grew some general things. It was a dairy farm, so they grew a lot of stuff to feed the cows and horses.  Relative to the current Grand Valley campus, that farm was a half a mile west, on the corner of 52nd and Lake Michigan Drive. It is all gone now.  He was one of 12 children; 3rd from the bottom. However, he is the only one of the 12 that is still living yet. (2:10)  He always says that his brothers and sisters are all in heaven saying “What takes that guy so long?”  His first job with the phone company was he was one of a line crew. They put up pole and string wires.  He really enjoyed his job and loved working outside. Now he looks at the workers today and would not want to do it at all.  When he worked, if it rained, you got time off to sleep or whatever you wanted to do.  When he used to work on the farm, he and a bunch of other farmers got together on a farm and get stuff done.  One day they were all sitting down, drinking coffee and one of them said “You are all going to be in the Army because one day soon here Germany, Japan, and Italy are all going to get together, and they think they are going to rule the world”  That’s the only think he can remember about the war before he was in it.  He heard about Pearl Harbor when he was at a Sunday service. No one had televisions then and not many had radios.  Many people did not hear about it until that night, when the pastor announced the news.  At the time, he had not thought about signing up for the Army because he did not know what was going on in the world and what it meant. Later on, he would come to understand what the attacks meant. (4:20)  There was also a draft going on at the time, and he was quite aware of that.  He had a Sunday school teacher who always told him and the other kids that they were going to be in the Army one day. It turned out to be true.  Eventually he was drafted in 1942 and had to appear in Grand Haven and all that stuff �The Induction process (5:10)           After receiving his draft notice he had to report to Grand Haven. Before he did that though, he went to Lansing to have his physical done. It would be a few days before they had to return to Grand Haven. Then they took a bus to Fort Custer, in Battle Creek, Michigan. When they got to Fort Custer, they went through a list of things. They were issued new uniforms and other things. They were also put through some training. To being with, they peeled a lot of potatoes. They were also taught how to do many of the chores that they would have to be doing as well. He was at Fort Custer for about 3-4 weeks and then he was sent to Camp Crowder, Missouri. He was sent to Fort Custer on a bus. He remembers the weather being bad. The trip itself was rather solemn. You did not know if you would see your family or friends again or even your country. He got to Camp Crowder by train. He had never been on a train before that. In fact, he does not recall being outside of the state before. Camp Crowder (7:30)              Camp Crowder was a brand new camp. It was built right after the attacks on Pearl Harbor. A lot of things were not finished yet. For example, the roads that were in between the new barracks buildings were not completed when he got there. They even had to expand their camp. They built what he called “tar paper shacks” to expand the camp. Camp Crowder had the special function of being a place of training for the Signal Corps. They trained with telephones, radio and even homing pigeons. Every once in a while a pigeon would come flying in with a note on it that it was time for you to leave your training. They also trained a lot of WACs there too. The WACs were kept separately in their own camp. While he was there, he did a lot of marching. But the good thing about that was when it was over you got to go to the rifle range. There were a lot of jokes out there too, because they wanted your whole group to qualify. So if one of the guys missed the target, they pulled it down and poked a hole through it with a pencil, so they all qualified. (9:45) He used to hunt on the farm, which gave him experience with a gun. He was also in physical shape at the time. There were no problems adjusting to the military discipline for him. But there were some guys had trouble though, physically. Some nights they would go on long marches and some of the guys had to quit after a couple of miles. The rest had to carry them the rest of the way until they got back. �                         Some of those hikes were really long. One was 22 miles. They got back in the morning and he is pretty sure that they let them all go to bed. There were a lot of Southerners who trained with him. Not too many people were from Michigan. He had some trouble understanding them at first, but he got used to them eventually. The Southerners must have come as one big group because one day they all left. Just a few had the same kind of experience that he did when he entered the service. His work with phone lines sure gave him a step up. There were also some officers there who knew a little more, but they were a little higher up. He does have to say though that some people from the south, like Georgia and Mississippi did not even have a phone in their home. So this was all a brand new experience for them, learning about phones and radios. (12:05) Most of them were average guys and learned things ok in time. Boot camp lasted about a month or two. He really liked the marching part of it. He was the second tallest in his group and was therefore at the front when people turned right. Everyone was supposed to follow him because he was supposed to know that to do. After basic was over he went into training for more specific things, like switchboards and phones. He was trained in a variety of things from phones to switchboards. He even got trained in the radio a little bit. He did not learn code during his training. In fact, the people at the other end of the camp, in the tar shacks were the ones who were learning Morse code. In fact, one of the people who did learn was a good friend who lived next to him at home. They got together one time in France. He had passed a vehicle carrying his friend and they talked for a second. But he never did catch up to him after that. (14:15) His main job was to string wire lines on cross arms. He used it too, over in France. He was done with training in Camp Crowder until November 1943. He was there around 8 months. He was training as part of a specific outfit or unit. He was in the 32nd Signal Battalion, attached to 1st Army. They were not attached to any one specific unit within the army, so they could float to where they were needed. His battalion was divided into ten units, and each day they would send a new unit out to where it needed to go. While he was at Camp Crowder, he was allowed to go off the base to have some fun. He loved to bowl. He and some of the other guys would often go to the local bowling alley to bowl together and have some fun. (16:30) Other than that, there was not much to do. Some people did leave the base to attend the local churches for mass, but he always went to the one they had on the base. He did have a chance to go home before he was shipped overseas. He went home in November for about 10 days. He remembers when he went home there was snow, and a lot of it! �  One reason he did go home was his brother and sister-in-law were going to have a military wedding, and he wanted to be there for it. After that though, he shipped back to Camp Crowder. When they got back, they were off. Active Duty (18:10)               They were sent to Camp Shanks, New York. He was put on a liberty ship, which was not very good. When they left, he barely saw the Statue of Liberty. While he was leaving, he wondered if he was ever going to see home again. (18:40) The trip over was terrible. It was very stormy and the boat was always going up and down. He always good thought, if you could not stab good, you certainly would learn to when your tray of food slid by, back and forth. A lot of men, including him, got sick. He started out good, but eventually got sea sick and remained sick the whole trip. His bunk was right next to the hatch that the sailors would use to get out of the bunk room. He was always wet from the hatch being open. He got so sick that they put him in the hospital when they landed at Liverpool. He got over it fairly soon. The hospital that he stayed at was an English hospital. It was very different from the hospitals that he was used to. If you were well enough to get up, you had to help with sweeping the floors, doing dishes, etc. He was there with two Scottish soldiers, friends, who were serving in the English Army. They were complaining that they did not want to go back to their units. Hinken wanted to go back to his, because he did not want to start out in a new one. Those who guys found out that if you put lye soap under your armpit, it brought your temperature up. Every time that doctor came through in the morning, he checked them and told them they had to stay a couple more days. (21:05) Eventually, he joined their battalion. He did not know how they knew where it was as it was a long ways away by the time he was fit to join them. He figured the communications were really good. He was based in England near Coventry. Coventry    At his base, the soldiers lived in Quonset huts. He described them as paper huts [actually sheet metal, of course, but flimsy-looking]. However, they were not too bad; they kept you out of the weather. While he was there, his unit did some training just to keep sharp, but nothing to extravagant. Since they did not have a lot to do, the soldiers got a lot of time off. He and a buddy used to take their time to traverse the countryside. �        One time, when they were on one of these trips, they came over a hill and saw fencing everywhere and police dogs. They turned around right away. There was a lot of stuff to see there, but he never went into London. Coventry was bombed pretty bad during the war; they had started bombing it before he arrived. The English had radar that helped them fight the German fighter planes. Germany did not have this technology at the time. (23:15) He cannot recall if he celebrated Christmas in England. One thing he can remember when he was stationed in England, he and others would always go to a little town called Atherstone and play darts in the Taverns. One thing they served a lot was fish and chips, it was some good stuff. They served this food in newspaper, because that is all they had. When they ran out of paper, they locked the place up. He went to a staging area before he left for Normandy. His staging area was South Hampton. Omaha Beach            It was so stormy that time. It was right after D-Day. The docks kept rolling up and down with the waves and they were having difficulty loading all the truck and equipment on the ship. (25:10) They were loading the equipment on an English ship; it had two ramps in the front. It was a big ship, like a ferry. When they got aboard the ship, they were given two pills, one for when you left and one for when you landed, because you would need it then. And he took them, too, and they really helped him. When they landed, none of them knew what they were getting into. That was the only thing that kept them going. If they had known, they would not have wanted to land. When they were in Southampton, they knew it was D-Day because they saw all these planes flying back with smoke coming out of their engines, and really beat up. Although he did not know exactly what was going on, on D-Day, he did know where he was headed. (27:03) There was an officer in his unit who was always bragging that he would be the first in his unit to land on Omaha Beach in their outfits. It turned out that they put those two ramps down on the beach, and they were ok, on fairly hard sand, but his sand had been disturbed, so it was loose. He went down right away, and they had to pull him out. He heard, but never saw, that some of those big trucks got so stuck in the sand, that when they tried to pull them out the front bumper or the front wheels would come off, but the rest just had to stay there. There was nothing they could do. Omaha Beach was peaceful, but there was lots of equipment being loaded and unloaded. All the balloons had been placed securely in the sand and that kept the German planes away because they could not get in close enough to attack them. �               Wounded soldiers were also being loaded and taken back. Just down the road was a Red Cross that was caring for them, and bringing them to the ships, to bring them back to England. Once his unit unloaded onto the beach, they took off, meeting at their required place. They took some newly built roads that were made, and packed down nicely. Before they left Southampton, they had put some gook [cosmoline] on the motors of the truck engines so they could drive in the water without being disturbed. However, after they landed, they forgot to take the gook off. So about halfway up the hill, the trucks were hotter than heck. They finally pulled all of it off, but Murphy’s Law finally went into effect after that, because everything they touched after that was wrong. (29:55) Once they got the gook off, they continued to the top of the hill, where they were supposed to meet. It was dusk when they got there, which meant they were late. When they got to the top, some of the officers were there. Most of the unit had gone on ahead without them, but they finally found it that night. They stayed in a little ditch and found some coffee pots and that’s when he knew they had caught up with them. They took some time to get organized because not all of the units showed up. No one knew where they were. His best friend, Peterson, had been with him since he got his draft notice. After they landed on the beach, he never saw his friend again. He had people looking for him; he went through all the registers and never did find him. (31:40) He went to the hospital where he would have been, went back to his home, and never found out anything. When he was over there, a speaker had told the group that if they needed help finding someone, she would help. Well, she never came back, so he thought she did not find anything. At the time, he was a tech sergeant, so he had his own squad. Once they got organized, the first thing they had to do was tie Omaha Beach with Utah Beach. It was difficult to do because there was a waterway and they had to go around it. Other men were ordered to tie it somewhere else. There were all kinds of orders being issued, so they wanted big cables too, not tiny lines. The French countryside is much like here [West Michigan] where they were. One thing he did notice is that all of their cows were red and white. He never saw a black and white cow while he was there. Going Through France (33:40)    He did not know much about the actual fighting that was going on. It was a few miles ahead of where they were. Sometimes they would get too close to the fighting and got sent back. Especially when they went to Cherbourg. They went to Cherbourg to rehabilitate a French line. When they got there, there were signs saying “This side road has not been cleared of mines” and that’s where they had to work. �                     They ended up doing the work anyway and without incident. Although he never went into the town of Cherbourg, he did hear that it was a little bit destroyed too. He saw many French civilians while he was there. They were out working, plowing fields and other things. There was a gal out there who had a tractor hooked up to a milker and she milked a herd of cows. There was not much contact with them, no one could understand anybody. They did have a few run-ins with them, but nothing big. (35:40) There was lots of evidence that a war was going on. There were supply rings, with trucks going everywhere. When you saw that red ball you got out of their way. He does not recall them being driven by black units, as was done later on in the war. He arrived in Normandy when the Allied Forces were stagnant in their attacks against the Nazis. This would last a couple of months. He kept himself busy until they were ready to head to St. Lo. It took them 20 miles and 40 days to get from where they were at to St. Lo. (37:10) When he arrived, he worked on fixing the lines in St. Lo. By the time they got there, the city was flattened. You could not see anything; a few walls stuck up here and there. He took a trip back there later on and it was a beautiful city. Of course, we (America) paid for a lot of that. Although there was a major bombing at St. Lo, he was not there for it. The planes that were bombing, did not bomb where they should have. Bombs were hitting a lot of American troops. Not long after that, the breakout happened, and they moved through Northern France quickly. He followed the front lines, but did not know how far back they were. They moved quickly, especially after Patton got over there. They finally got up to Versailles, where the WWI Peace Treaty was signed. After they got there, rumors started that Germany surrendered and they were going to sign a new peace treaty at the same place as WWI. But it never happened. (39:25) When they got there is was so wet and rainy. The mud made it difficult to move, but they kept on going. When they were done, not long after they moved on to Paris. They went through at night. There were all the fancy window displays, and there they were, dragging themselves through the city. It was blacked out, though he did not know why, since there were not to many planes around there anymore. They went through Paris and continued heading east, to Luxembourg. Luxembourg and Belgium (41:05)    He remembers they stayed over there one night. They found a little place to stay, it was a school. He found a bunch of little toys in the building. Right next to the school was a slaughter house. Eventually he left Luxembourg and headed for Belgium. �                      In the fall just before winter, everything was shut down. No one was going to work for the winter. The Americans were not going to do anything, and they thought that the Germans would not do anything either. However, the Germans were doing something during the winter. He talked to a soldier who was one patrol one night who had heard a strange noise, sounded like a different type of engine they had never heard before. He tried to tell an officer that they should investigate it, but the officer would not do it. He figured that they were just going to sit for the winter. A couple of days before the Battle of the Bulge, he and his unit were in Bastogne. They left and went to a small town, which did not have any importance, so they were just left over there. Eventually, the Americans were pushed back and they had to move again. They were still driving around, putting up lines, which is why they were in Bastogne. He remembers being in a tower at Bastogne and seeing how all the lines were connected at this one tower and spread throughout the city. (45:50) Christmas came about that time. They did not have a lot of food. He wrote home around the time, comparing Christmas at home to his Christmas there. There were no lights, music or food. All they had were K-rations. He also remembers a night when it snowed so badly. They had whitewashed the tanks the night before so they could blend in with the snow, and they did. Winter was very harsh. Snow was deeper than he had ever seen in America, and they were running out of supplies quickly. Guys were running out of boots, socks and long underwear. They just did not have it. Many of them got frostbite. Some of them were hurting so much, they did not know if their toes were going to come back again. A friend of his had the whole front of his foot frostbitten. When they were discharged, he was sent to see if there was anything to be done. He, himself, did not get any frostbite, but his toes were always cold. It was wet all the time. He remembers they found a shack one night to sleep in. It was so small there was no room for everyone. He ended up sleeping on a dining room table. (47:10) He was always moving, despite the fact that things had slowed down in the war. They worked for different outfits rehabilitating cables everywhere. When they crossed the Rhine, they found a really big German cable. They did not have many of those, so they used that for a long time. Made good use of it. When they moved into Germany. It did not look much different than what he had seen so far. Germany (48:16)    He did remember seeing a lot of grapevines across the hills. As he travelled through the many places across Europe, he did see a lot of the civilian population. Some of the guys in the unit knew a fair amount of French, and they conversed via these men. �            Some of the towns they wanted to go through had traffics issues they had to deal with. American vehicles would want to go this way, others want to go that. The medic assigned to his unit found a siren, though he does not know where. Sometimes at night, when they wanted to get through a town, he cranked that siren and the MP’s would scream “Let these guys through!” It was different in Germany. When he got there, there were these big signs out that said “NO CONTACT WITH THE GERMANS” That did not last two hours. People were back at it again. They crossed the Rhine at Remagen by train. He often wondered what happened to the Germans who let them all by. When he crossed, the MPs on it yelled “Keep Going!” because if anyone stopped, there was a lot of stress put on the bridge. (50:55) After they were across they went with the infantry and artillery units, straight into Germany. They kept moving until the Germans surrendered. In fact, when the Germans did surrender, they were in Czechoslovakia. He does not remember why there were so many troops sent to Czechoslovakia, but they were there. When they were there, they were kind of separated from many other people. But he did find out that his cousin was in another unit there. Unfortunately by the time he caught up to him, Andy was gone. He never did manage to contact him. After the surrender, they moved out pretty quick. They were sent to Marseilles, France. That trip took a while to move that convoy. After the German Surrender (53:20)          That was not a fun trip either. On the way down, they crossed a river. When they got to the bridge, it had a sign on it saying “This bridge was built by the 693rd Engineers.” This happened to be the unit his brother-in-law was in. They stopped there for the night and on the other side of the bridge, was the Engineers outfit. He finally wiggled his way into getting a Jeep from an officer and a driver. He went over there and looked him up. The man was quite surprised. It was nice to see a familiar face from home. During that time, he spent most of his time with the same people. Although no one sticks out in his mind, he always thought they were average guys, and very nice. But you almost had to be nice in the Army. Once he got to Marseille, they were given a few days off. They set up camp, and he met up with his cousin that he missed in Czechoslovakia. They would go shooting at a rifle range. They both had a .45 and they got some ammunition and go shoot out at the range every other day or so. It was not too bad there. They did not do any training at all. Mostly, they were just waiting for a ship. �     When it arrived, it was a big one. It held 5000 soldiers. He thinks it was a troop ship, though it held more than troops. When they went through the Panama Canal, they picked up even more soldiers. They left port July 2 from Marseille. And no one knew where they were going. Finally, when they passed the Rock of Gibraltar, Spain, they figured out that they were headed to Okinawa. They did not even know where Okinawa was. Okinawa was 400-500 miles South of Japan, and was their landing point. Okinawa (57:15)                When he got there, he never saw so much devastation in all his life. There was nothing. Some civilians would come out of some bunkers in the hills. God knows how long they were in there, while the Americans were just obliterating the place. By the time they landed, it was September 1. He went to work rebuilding some of the communication lines for some of the American outfits that were already there. He has a picture at home of a pole almost horizontal from different units climbing and leaning on it for work. It used to stand almost vertical. The voyage over there was 58 day on the water. That’s two months. There was not a lot of room to do much. Some of them did exercises, if they found room. Once in a while some guys lay under a piece of the ship, in shadow, and did some reading. This is what he did most of his time. He tried to avoid going down into the hold as much as possible. Sometimes though, on a Friday or Saturday evening the troops would put on a program or boxing matches. As soon as they got on the ship, one of his officers volunteered them to do KP. They hated doing KP back in the states, but when they were done with KP on the ship, they got to take a shower in fresh water. It was really nice. They ended up volunteering for the whole way and they kept it too. (1:00:04) They also had a chance to get the food they wanted and more food as well. They were sent to Okinawa to assist in the invasion of Japan. When they got there, they put his unit into the 147th Infantry Division [Regiment]. He does not know why. They may have broken up his unit and assigned them to different squads. Once they got there and heard that Japan had surrendered, it did not make much of a difference if they were in the 147th or not. He did not know how long he was in Okinawa, but he remembers boarding a ship and heading for the USA. Headed Home (1:02:01)    There was also bad weather on that ship ride home, but they finally landed in Tacoma, Washington, on Christmas Eve. On the next day, there were a cars lined up on the dock waiting to take some of the soldiers home for Christmas. That was so nice. So they did that too. This couple had two little kids and they were so funny. �                      A couple days later, they went into town and asked for the biggest steak they had. They were processed at Tacoma. When he was there, he went to the bathroom and left a small box of trinkets on a shelf. When he returned, they were gone. It was the first thing that had been stolen since he had first left home for training. There was a lot of nice stuff in there too. One thing was a star that they took off a Japanese officer. (1:04:08) After they were finished processing at Tacoma, they crossed the USA to get to Fort Sheridan, IL. When they got there, they got paid and sent home. It took a long time to reach Fort Sheridan by train. Most of the guys on the train smoked, and he did not. It was awful breathing in all that smoke. You could not open a window either because it was too cold and snowy. After he got home, he went back to work right away. However, he did not have a way to get to work, since he sold his brother his car when he left. So he got a car and went back to work. There was a special offer for him to earn a certain amount more for a year when he returned. He ended up returning to Michigan Bell. He worked there for a while. He did a bunch of different jobs. He worked as a liner, and in installation. Then he worked as an inspector for a while and different things like that. He really liked that those jobs gave him the experience needed in order to get another job in Grand Haven, at a toll place. (1:06:40) His experience in the Army gave him the ability to handle more responsibility. He would not have been able to handle that before any of his training. He recalled a story from when he was in Germany. They had autobahns and cloverleaves; they got on one of the cloverleaves and got extremely lost. They were trying to cross a bridge, but ended up in Holland, a long way off course. No one knew where they were, there was no compass or anything. They were stopped on a bridge by some Dutch underground, but they could not talk because no one knew Dutch. After they were satisfied that they were American troops they let them go across the bridge. It was a long night. (1:09:35) They finally got back on track and the captain was furious. When they went back to visit, his son-in-law played basketball for Calvin and was invited to play in Germany for a year. They brought him over for a visit. It was nice to visit things back. There is a cemetery in Normandy that has a shocking number of graves. 9,376 American war heads buried there. Approximately 300 are unknown and 14,000 others who died there but were sent home. A father and son are buried there, side-by-side; and 33 instances of two brothers buried side-by-side. (1:12:45) Disc 2 Supplemental Information (37:42) �                         Quick overview of first interview. When they were in Belgium, they came across Kaiser Wilhelm’s headquarters from WW I. It was way back in the woods; it was a beautiful place, kind of like a palace. Not only were they his offices and headquarters, but he had a lot of people around as well. There were pictures they found in there of the different Generals that served under him. He remembers a picture of Ludendorff; who was a principal commander. When he got there, it was pretty quiet. When you got into the building, there was a lot of stuff in the office, like the Kaiser’s telephone. It was almost set up like a museum, though he does not know for sure. (2:00) They used those headquarters as a place to rest. Before the Kaiser had taken it over, it was an orphanage. There were a lot of little crib-size mattresses, and they had not slept on a mattress in a while. It was very nice. The building was in nice shape too. Someone had been taken care of that place. Other Americans were coming, so they moved into the horse barn. It was a real nice barn. A couple of units stayed in there, since they had moved from the home. It was kind of sad. Quite a few years later, they went back to visit it. Although he knew about where it was, he did not remember exactly. They ended up asking another group of visitors for help finding it. They ended up taking them to the Kaiser’s place. The horse barns were all dismantled. He shared his story of having stayed there, and the gal said “you may have stayed in the horse barn, but we ate the horses,” they probably did too. (4:05) He was there around the winter, in late 1944. Another story… Just before they left the Battle of the Bulge, they were leaving and they saw a side valley with beautiful road and beautiful trees. It was just a beautiful place. His outfit got stopped there. They had knocked down a railroad bridge and they were clearing it out. They were there quite a while, and got really bored. So, they took their big jackknife and carved their initial in the trees. Soon, most of the soldiers were all carving their initials. They ruined a lot of really nice trees. 24 years later they went back and he was going down the same road and his initials were still there, clear as day. (6:15) He wishes to apologize to the Belgians, because he ruined a lot of trees. Next on the list… Gals in the white bathing suits He left the beach, and was headed to St. Lo. They took some back roads and ended up in a small village. On the outside of the village, there were two swimming pools. They could not read the signs, so they went in and the guys washed up in the swimming pools. In the other pool, there stood two French beauties in bright white bathing suits. Not skimpy ones like they have today, but they were sharp. �                         Finally, they jump into the pool and when they were done, they got out of the pool and sat on the edge. They looked at each other, and when those suits got wet, they were transparent. Turns out they were made of parachute cloth. So those soldiers booked it out of there. Many of the French people used the parachutes that troopers left behind. He saw some farmers cover up their hay with it. (8:50) While they were in Germany too, they found a German youth camp; specifically for 12 year olds. He confiscated one of their small helmets. You could not wear it, but he still has it today. They also had a lot of flags there as well, but he did not have a chance to get one of those. The camp was all boys. There could have been other places where girls and boys mixed, he does not know. It was quite a big camp. It was one of the Hitler Youth Camps. There were swastikas all over the flags and the helmets. He felt sorry for those boys, specifically one young fellow. When they went into towns they would confiscate all the guns. Well, they got into one town and the Burgomaster ordered everyone to just throw their guns into the truck. Well, this one fellow, about 10-12 years old ended up throwing his air rifle in the truck as well. He found it, but they were miles from the town. Poor kid, it must have broken his heart to throw that away. (11:00) Everything that he found and kept was mailed home, so they did not take it away from him when he was being checked to go home. He had a friend at the post office who said that he would make sure it all got sent home. The next story… bull fights. When they were still in Marseille, bull fights were a big thing over there. Advertising was all over for different matadors. One day, one of the guys asked if anyone wanted to go to a bull fight. So he figured why not. Truckloads of GIs went. He figured they must have known they were coming, because they set up a side of the arena where they all sat. When matador got the best of the bull, all of the French people cheered. But, whenever the bull got the best of the man, all the American soldiers would chime in. (12:25) He saw another bull fight where the bull got the best of the matador, and he did not know where to go. So the matador ran and jumped halfway up one of the wall and that bull charged after him. He thought the bull may have crushed his feet, but he does not know for sure what happened. Next story… Rope Ladders and Okinawa. When they got to Okinawa, the ship of theirs could not reach the docks. So to get to land they had to get down these rope ladders to smaller boats that took them to land. Guys from his unit had to go first. So many of the men were so weak that they could not hold on to those ropes. �                         They had to carry their duffle bags down as well, which did not help any. Some of the guys ended up dropping their duffle bags, and when they hit the boat, their stuff went everywhere. Men already on the boat helped collect the soldiers’ special stuff and put it back. It was kind of sad to see it all happening, and even more sad because some of the soldiers would lose some of their stuff. (14:00) Most of the men were weak because of the two-month journey and there was no place to exercise. Many of the fellows who lost their stuff were smaller guys anyway who were not used to carrying a lot of weight. When they got to the shore, they got into some trucks and went right under the wings of B-29s. They were astounded by the size of the planes. They were huge! They got the men out of the airport and got them to a field and told them to set up for the night. The next morning some of the natives were digging at the ground all around the men. It turned out to be a potato patch that they slept on. They did not sleep too well that night, because they did not know what to expect from the Japanese. He was scared. They waited for daylight, but when it came they waited for something else to happen. They got up and got to chow, and they found out, on a side hill by them, a group of Japanese with a sign. They wanted to surrender. The sign they carried said “NO SHEET” He knew they meant “no shoot” They did not know what to do with them. Luckily another unit came to their rescue. They got all 26 of the Japanese processed and the commanding officer said “ONE” and he put his finger up and motioned for one to come. So one at a time, they came fully armed to get processed. This happened after the Japanese surrendered and signed the treaty aboard the Missouri. (17:20) So these had been Japanese hiding in the hills, watching and waiting for a group of “green troops,” they did not want to surrender to anyone who served on Okinawa. So they waited until fresh troops had come. He figured they did that otherwise they would not have lasted very long. When he got there, he had planned on working on communications, but there was so much else going on, he could not keep up with it all. There was one fellow who had gangrene all over one of his arms. He figured that the man thought it would be the end of him, because what use was he? Instead they sent the man to the Army hospital to see what could be done. The Japanese seemed in pretty good condition, with a few exceptions, such as gangrene. When he got there, he was warned that the Japanese in the hills would come into the camp at night, dressed as Americans and steal food. (19:03) One of the men who were brought to Okinawa had a brother die there. He was really mean to the Japanese who had surrendered, though he understood why he was so upset. Next story… 90 days, no mail. �                     He had gone to Okinawa from France. It was 21,000 miles and 58 days. They could not send mail while they were on the ship, a little time before in France and sometime after when they reached Okinawa. So all the mail he received as at least 90 days old. His mother was so faithful in checking her mailbox, hoping for a letter. After 3 months, she finally got one. He wrote home quite a bit, much more than some of the others he was with. He would get letter in return from his mother, his pastor, and finally many different members of the church. Every month, his pastor would send a letter to all the service men in his church. There were 37 of them. It was so nice to get news. (21:35) During those 90 days, he did not receive any mail either. When he got to Okinawa, he received some, but he had to write home first. When he did send letters home, he only had a small piece of paper to write on, so he never sent a lot. Next story….. I’ll Be home for Christmas. When he first got into the Army, when he was at Fort Custer, he wrote home that he would be home for Christmas. And he did go home for a day. When he was in Europe, before the Battle of the Bulge, he wrote home that he would be home for Christmas, because he thought the war was ending. Unfortunately, it did not happen. When he got to Okinawa, he wrote home that he would be home for Christmas. He made it as far as Tacoma, Washington. And that is where he was for that Christmas. (23:25) The most scared he had ever been, was that first night at Okinawa. Also on the first night there, mongooses were running around. They did not know what to do with them, so they left them alone. Japanese were so good at stealing food from Americans that they would get into the chow line to get it. In, order to stop this, you had to know the guy in front of you and the guy behind you. Same went for the other soldiers. When he was in Okinawa, he did not see much of the local population. He saw one of them walking around now and then, plus the potato guys, but not really any more than that. (25:30) After the first round of infantry had come, many of the local population ran for the hills too. After a while, they did come out. He saw pictures of families that were coming out of these holes that they had lived in for a while. After the war was over, Japanese women were sent to get both families and soldiers out from the hills. Some of them did not come out for a long time. When he was serving in Europe, when it came to figuring out where he was, in relation to what was going on, all he could do is assume that they were where they were supposed to be. Many of the soldiers were not kept informed on what was going on throughout the war. (27:25) �                   Back at Camp Crowder, they had a real good marching outfit. They followed commands really well. Then, one Saturday, they had a dress parade one afternoon and all the big officers were there. One of the commanders forgot what they were supposed to say. So instead of yelling “Halt” he said “Whoa.” Some of the soldiers kept going and some of them stopped. It was a big mess, but really funny. They spent all that time training to get it right, and they messed up right in front of all those officers. The lieutenant who marched them up there was the one who forgot. It took time to get them all set up again. Another story… he held up a convoy. It was when he was in Atherstone, England. They were moving to Southampton to load up the vessels. They had a long ways to go and it had been dark. They had cat eyes, which were lights that had covers with narrow slits cut into them to let light through, on the vehicles. You were supposed to follow the cat eyes in front of you so that you did not lose your convoy. Well, he ended up falling asleep, and so did the driver of his Jeep, after they had come to a stop. Well, the vehicle in front of him kept going, but he did not move. So the vehicles behind him did not go either. Eventually, his commanding officer came around and he was so mad. He was glad that he had his helmet on so the officer could not recognize him. (32:20) When they went back to the Kaiser’s place, he took his son-in-law’s car, a small Volkswagen. When he got there, he had just gotten back from Australia and his daughter asked him to come to Germany. He wondered if he would have a job when he got back, because he was gone 6 weeks that summer. (34:00) When they came up to the gate of the house, the caretaker let them in. Before that, she was kind of scared of them, and tried to let the police dogs there out. But when he showed her a photo of him and she let them in. She showed them all around, but when he asked about the wine cellar, she said he was not allowed down there. At that time, it was a retreat for some organization and they were using it. While he was at the Kaiser’s house, during the war, the sleeping bag that had a full body zipper was introduced. Many of the men had issues with the zipper. He always had good food when he was in Europe. However, when he was in Okinawa, he always had Australian beef, which tasted like mutton. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hinken, Morris (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hinken, Morris Description An account of the resource Morris Hinken served as a communications technician during World War II. He trained at Camp Crowder, Missouri, and deployed to England with the 32nd Signal Battalion at the end of 1943. He was based near Coventry, and went to Normandy shortly after D-Day. His unit laid and repaired telephone cables across northern Europe. He worked in Bastogne shortly before the Battle of the Bulge, and followed the army into Germany. Shortly after the German surrender, he was sent to Okinawa, arriving just after the Japanese surrender. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-22 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HinkenM1079V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e361d310b4e217162b5b832e37c278e5.jpg 2e6c32194cb4ebf5dac04cc1402378eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HinmanJeffrey Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Hinman, Jeffrey Description An account of the resource Jeffrey Hinman, Education Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b10f3215ff5dcb618a59890d9b4d5961.pdf 3cd49027f9e12ce9384bea646e4db661 PDF Text Text January 17, 2008 - Race and LGBT HIP-HOP AND HOMOPHOBIA 7:00-9:00pm Cook DeWitt Exploring the lyrics, images and messages of homophobia found in Hip-Hop past and present and presents Homo-Hop, LGBT Artists finding their place in today's Hip-Hop Cosponsors: Office of Multicultural Affairs & C.L.O.U.D. N.I.N.E. I , • - •, , .,_ • 1 t-'' 1•~. ..._,, • ~ February, 2008 - Gender Identity ·1•""1,... I r, r-i ,, :,_ , \.I , ,,.,. ,.. Lui,; ,, GRA.Now,_L:','-:',~-:__ \ _:_ OFFI C::: :; ::: ::; - ~<::::', ~ _: ~GRANDVALLEY ,\.::ti STATE UNIVERSITY ·:-,, March, 2008 - Spirituality and LGBT For individuals requiring special accommodations please contact the LGBT center at lgbtcenter@gvsu.edu � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_LGBTQ_2008_Hip-Hop-&-Homophobia-Event-Flyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-01-17 Title A name given to the resource Hip-Hop and Homophobia Description An account of the resource Poster with a synopsis on the topic, and information of the event, including the place, time and date. The 2008 Race and LGBT event of the LGBT OnGoing Conference series. Subject The topic of the resource Sexual minorities Community centers Hip-hop Homophobia Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Rainbow Resource Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d2019a6a8d758b1437e2413c9d2c833.jpg 9c49a0b1a735aad8d4d6aafd60156ece https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/985dbefcf1409c45ffe92ac4c59e783e.jpg 4b5008990b2238a25fd6d732234d771e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Insel-Bücherei Series Description An account of the resource The German publishing company Insel Verlag was founded in 1899 by Anton Kippenberg in Leipzig. In its early years the firm only printed expensive, beautifully-produced volumes, until demand led to the publication of the more modest Insel-Bücherei series in 1912. Relatively inexpensive but with the same careful sense of design and typography, these smaller-format books reprinted shorter works from a variety of German, European, and world authors. The series numbers considerably more than a thousand titles and is still being issued. The Digital Collection contains the scanned covers of 140 titles held by Grand Valley State University Libraries. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1904-1987 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource ger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-05_IB0604 Title A name given to the resource Hirtenleben Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1957 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-29 Description An account of the resource Cover of Hirtenleben, by Aristide Maillol, published by Insel-Verlag, 1957. Insel-Bücherei Nr. 604 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. Insel-Bücherei. Z315.I5 B83 no.604 Language A language of the resource de Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1457f7f572c90827a5783eef3d2c4407.mp3 f9cf3a39871b1f101155fe4f0c81bb44 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9259f1630daf2d1881bd95005839e647.pdf f1dadf7ecec7f9251fe4c1954f69bb8f PDF Text Text His Light, Our Life Text: John 1: 4-5, 9; Isaiah 9: 2 Richard A. Rhem Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Christmastide II, January 5, 1986 Transcription of the spoken sermon All that came to be was alive with His life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines on in the dark, and the darkness has never mastered it…. The real light which enlightens every man was even then coming into the world. John 1: 4-5, 9 The prophet, announcing the birth of a child destined to be a Deliverer of his people, a foreshadowing of the Child the Deliverer, cried out, The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light: Light has dawned upon them, dwellers in a land as dark as death. Isaiah 9: 2 The world has always known darkness, darkness that describes the tragedy and disaster that seems in every age to be present, a people living under the shadow of death. There is always enough darkness to go around. People cannot find their way; nations threaten, posture, and maneuver. One-upmanship is common in interpersonal relations. Anxious people, driven people, ruthless people, restless people. The world certainly knows enough darkness to go around. The newspapers and news magazines are full of the chronicle of the world's darkness. It is darkness that makes for news and we are bombarded with it daily— on the hour—even in continual stream from the news networks. Terrorism is the darkening shadow over our world. Ironically, it would seem that the super powers are at a standoff; we've looked at the horror of a nuclear winter and realized a nuclear war cannot be won and must not be fought, to use our President’s words. But what will we do with Khadafy? What if it is proven that it was Libyan agents that engineered the brutal murders at Rome and Vienna? Saudi Arabia has warned against military retaliation, claiming it will only escalate the round of terrorist activity and, I must say, I think they are right. © Grand Valley State University   �His Light, Our Life Richard A. Rhem Page 2   A Jew once said, "They that live by the sword shall die by the sword," but Israel has determined she will live by the sword and we stand in admonition of her ability to retaliate. But does that stop terrorism? Does it not only move it up a notch? Where will it end? Last evening’s news showed the most recent graduates of a splinter PLO group for whom Arafat is not militant enough. Their training complete in the Syrian mountains, they are ready to die for the cause of Palestinian liberation; their commitment is total, their fanatical zeal frightening. Khadafy says if we strike Libya he will bring the war to the streets of Middle America. And, of course, he will. Darkness. There is always enough personal darkness to go around, as well. Tension, betrayal, brokenness, grief—pain of a deeply personal nature is carried about by so many. Few of us escape deep wounds; most of us inflict deep hurt along the way. Darkness. This is the twelfth day of Christmas. This evening is called Twelfth Night. In some places gifts will be exchanged. Tomorrow is the day of Epiphany. The word means “manifestation.” The sign is a star; the central motif is "Light". Epiphany follows hard on Christmas because Christmas is the celebration of the Incarnation—The Word became flesh—and the Word in flesh was Light to the World. The prophet announced the birth of a boy who would be a King and Deliverer. A ray of light scattered Israel's darkness. The Psalmist sang of the Lord, His Light and His salvation in the midst of life's severe testings. Light is a major theme of John's Gospel. Darkness shrouds, hides, mystifies, provides a cover for all manner of evil. Light reveals, clarifies, opens up, illuminates. Some years ago while traveling in California we were driving to Yosemite National Park where we had reservations for the night. Being unfamiliar with the territory and trying to do too many things along the way, night came and darkness fell before we reached our destination. Road signs were few. I thought I was going in the right direction but I was uncertain. It was very dark and totally unfamiliar; I proceeded with all the anxiety that accompanies such uncertainty. We twisted and turned and traveled on, seeming to be descending. And we were. Although I did not know it, we were descending into a cavernous canyon with walls of sheer rock. © Grand Valley State University �His Light, Our Life Richard A. Rhem Page 3   I had never before "felt" the darkness. It was almost tangible. Finally we came on a light, a sign, and we arrived at the lodge. But where we were or what the environment was, I had no idea except that it was the blackest darkness I had ever known. In the morning I stepped out of the room to see where in the world I was and it was a startling moment, for I stepped out in dazzling sunlight and found I was in a very deep canyon. Behind the lodge was a wall of sheer rock towering skyward. And falling from its height was a magnificent waterfall. The whole world was transformed by the rising sun, the coming of the Light. The darkness was dissipated; no more was there a sense of foreboding. Everything was transformed; the light had come. Epiphany is the celebration of the Light that came into the world at Christmas. The Word was made flesh and the flesh was the person of Jesus who said, "I am the Light of the world". John's Gospel uses certain ideas with which to tell the story of Jesus. Two words used in close cooperation are light and life. The prologue to the Gospel (verses 118) is a magnificent portrayal of God's movement out of eternity creating the cosmos, our time and space, and then moving into that very time and space to claim creation as her own. The themes with which John will build his Gospel find expression in this opening section and here we find his claim that the Word was life and that life was the Light of humankind. Listen: All that came to be was alive with His life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines on in the dark, and the darkness has never mastered it….The real light which enlightens every man was even then coming into the world. John 1: 4-5, 9 Beginning before creation, portraying creation as the cosmic framework for the revelation of Himself, building to the climactic statement of verse 14, "The Word became flesh", we have the deepest truths of God, the cosmos and the human family revealed. What an amazing story is here unfolded; here we have the miracle and mystery of Christmas and Epiphany conjoined. Here we are told that God is the source of the world's life and that in the revelation of Himself we have light. In the climactic statement of 1:14, "The World became flesh", or, as we might more simply state it "The Word became a human person" we have an amazing declaration. We are told that the mind and heart and deepest being of God came to expression in the humanity of Jesus. The first movement from the depths of God's being out of the depth of eternity was the movement of creation. John's claim is that what came to expression in Jesus, in the beginning, had come to expression in creation itself. God's Word—His mind, creative intention, will and © Grand Valley State University �His Light, Our Life Richard A. Rhem Page 4   loving nature was expressing itself in the creation of the world. We cannot miss this for John begins as Genesis begins: In the beginning… God is manifesting Himself in the creation of the world. God is manifesting Himself most fully and completely in the creation of Jesus—In Jesus what comes to expression in the fullest expression of God's intention in creation. In the film, "The Creation of the Universe" run recently on public television, the most eminent scientists of the world, some studying the cosmos through radio telescopes and some studying the intricacies of the nuclei of the atom, spoke of the quest for the one unifying formula or concept that lies at the mystery of the structure of all reality. They declared that when discovered it will be both profoundly beautiful and profoundly simple. A spark of energy, smaller than an atom, we are told, exploded into the Big Bang and the whole expanding cosmic drama continues as its unfolding. Those standing on the threshold of reality's secrets evidence an appropriate awe before the mystery and grandeur of the creation. Some seem open to spelling the heart of the mystery GOD. The God who in the beginning called all things into being was giving expression to His idea, His Word, His will. The Logos, the mind and heart and will of God, were expressing themselves in the creation of the cosmos. The inner Being of God was flowing out into the world. At the critical moment, in the fullness of time, the Inner Being, the Logos, the Word became flesh. The Word became a human person! That is the miracle of Christmas. God in human form; God within the structures of time and space; God in our history, one of us. Emmanuel. The creative movement of God in creating the cosmos moved even more dramatically in that the very Being of God now became incarnate in Jesus. Thus the amazing truth is that Seeing into the face of Jesus is seeing into the heart of God. This truth was expressed by the writer of the Hebrews: When in former times God spoke to our forefathers, he spoke in fragmentary and varied fashion through the prophets. But in this the final age he has spoken to us in the Son whom he has made heir to the whole universe, and through whom he created all orders of existence: the Son who is the effulgence of God’s splendor and the stamp of God’s very being. Hebrews 1: 1-3 The same theme is sounded here as in John's prologues. © Grand Valley State University �His Light, Our Life Richard A. Rhem Page 5   Paul wrote the following: The whole universe has been created through him and for him and He exists before everything, and all things are help together in him…. For in him the complete being of God, by God’s own choice, came to dwell. Colossians 1: 17-19 That is an amazing conception of things! Again the same theme is expressed. The God whose idea, reason, Word brought into being creation, now finds expression in Jesus, a human person. Again: Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all being comes, towards whom we move; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came to be, and we through him. I Corinthians 8: 6 And again in one of my favorite statements: For the same God who said, “out of darkness let light shine,” has caused his light to shine within us, to give the light of revelation – the revelation of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 5: 6 The One, True and Eternal God is the Creator, and is our Saviour! Out of the abyss of His Being flows creation's wonder, the human family in His image, and, Jesus, in whom His fullness dwells and in whom we see into the Father's heart. Light is the symbol of God's life giving, creative action. The light took the human form of Jesus, and, now here is the great, hopeful affirmation of the Gospel The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. John loved to use words with a double meaning. The word "overcome" can also mean "comprehend". The text could be translated that way, meaning the world simply does not understand God's action. And that is true. At the darkest moment of human history, as He was being crucified, Jesus prayed: "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." And they didn't. And we so often do not. And the terrorists do not. And the darkness reigns. But not completely; for the promise of the Gospel is—now translated "overcome"that the light shines on in the darkness and the darkness has not—nor ever will it—overcome the light. © Grand Valley State University �His Light, Our Life Richard A. Rhem Page 6   Child of God, the world is still full of darkness; but the light shines on, and will shine on until that day when all the earth and the whole cosmos will be ablaze with Light. Jesus said, “I am the Light of the world. He who believes in me will not walk in darkness, but will have the Light of life.” (John 8:12) His life, our Light, now and forever. Thanks be to God Who gives us the victory through our Lord, Jesus Christ! Amen. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Christmastide II Scripture Text John 1:4-5, 9, Isaiah 9:2 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19860105 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-01-05 Title A name given to the resource His Light, Our Life Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on January 5, 1986 entitled "His Light, Our Life", on the occasion of Christmastide II, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: John 1:4-5, 9, Isaiah 9:2. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives Christmastide Creator Divine Intention Jesus Light Mystery https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8fcdcb75745999a6cb8e6b54773ba645.jpg c746aae2b0b4dde8881c4482d276362c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Michigan Novels Collection. PS3525.E7187 H58 1903 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0004 Title A name given to the resource His Little World: The Story of Hunch Badeau Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hall, Alberta (Designer) Description An account of the resource Binding of His Little World: The Story of Hunch Badeau, by Samuel Merwin, illustrated by Alonzo Kimball, published by A.S. Barnes & Company, 1903. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1903 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad258d74fc838cbf40fd4b85c14e0450.mp3 d4d3e055c7fbe8d58d3a4edc29dac2d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Epiphany VIII Series Jesus' Way Scripture Text Matthew 9:36 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19920301 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-03-01 Title A name given to the resource His Way of Compassion With Human Disease Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on March 1, 1992 entitled "His Way of Compassion With Human Disease", as part of the series "Jesus' Way", on the occasion of Epiphany VIII, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Matthew 9:36. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1fe86cac1d746d747db3885ceecda12f.mp3 ea54e1af8d9fe481b5ed9bf5fd153def Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Epiphany VII Series Jesus' Way Scripture Text Mark 2:22 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19920223 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-02-23 Title A name given to the resource His Way of Freedom With Religious Tradition Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on February 23, 1992 entitled "His Way of Freedom With Religious Tradition", as part of the series "Jesus' Way", on the occasion of Epiphany VII, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Mark 2:22. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3dce584eb56465afb6391266c16cf1a.mp3 a19f2fff2cdd1f29eed44634e42dbe5a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Epiphany VI Series Jesus' Way Scripture Text Luke 19:10 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19920216 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-02-16 Title A name given to the resource His Way of Human Transformation Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on February 16, 1992 entitled "His Way of Human Transformation", as part of the series "Jesus' Way", on the occasion of Epiphany VI, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Luke 19:10. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2000a388f5aefcdb67f5b81e474a8efe.jpg 8671c40b5022e7b6f43e35f425f5f95f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. U313.N49 H57 1900 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0146 Title A name given to the resource His Wisdom, the Defender Description An account of the resource Binding of His Wisdom, the Defender, by Simon Newcomb, published by Harper & Brothers, 1900. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1900 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/60e1ec439fb37da22fbd80cc27be98bf.pdf fb5f14e50e81f350e3b9d249907fc22a PDF Text Text Hispanic Heritage Month Kick-offEvent eresa Naional Correspondant with Univision Television & Winner of11 Emmys Monday Sept.17, 2007 7.••00,p ffl Grand Valley State University Cook De Witt Center, Allendale Campus \ crbe Vaugbters of J~areZ;_, -"' JI true story of serial murder You do not have to travel far to find women with no rights, it is only 5 minutes across the US/Mexico border. Over 400 girls and women have been viciously attacked and killed in Juarez, Mexico since 1993, and the killings continue to this day.Join Teresa Rodriguez as she talks about her investigative reporting and the injustice that surrounds these murders. Talk to befollowed by a book signing. Sponsored by: GVSUWomen's Center, Office of Multi-Cultural Affairs, Office of Planning & Equity, Latino Student Union, Creative Writing Department, and Sigma Lambda Gamma National Sorority, and the Office of Housing and Residential Life For individuals requiring special accommodations please call the Women's Center at 616-331-2748 or email at womenctr@gvsu.edu � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_Womens-Center_2007_Hispanic-Heritage-Month-Teresa-Rodriguez.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Women's Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-09-17 Title A name given to the resource Hispanic Heritage Month Kick-Off Event: Teresa Rodriguez Description An account of the resource Poster with information on the talk given on the book "The daughters of Juárez: A true story of serial murder." Subject The topic of the resource Community centers Hispanic Heritage Month Television journalists Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Women's Center Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cbc2d43e72b28d0732f475c5b9d7b648.pdf 47c214e8263077e5d25ef9a422ddec81 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_WGS_2006_HispanicWomen.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Women's Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-11 Title A name given to the resource Hispanic Women: Hopes, Dreams, and Cultural Realities Description An account of the resource Poster with information on the panel, the person who will lead it and the location, date and time of the event are included. Subject The topic of the resource Community centers Hispanic American women Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06283b58c662c2a88133ef40c80ae6e7.pdf d24f9b8658ee5e32fa59413a69627b59 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Historia belli Peloponnesiaci [folium 4] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_004Thucydides1483 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thucydides Description An account of the resource One leaf (last folium) of Historia belli Peloponnesiaci, Book Eight, by Thucydides. Translated by Laurentius Valla and edited by Bartholomaeus Parthenius. Printed in Treviso by Johannes Rubeus Vercellensis circa 1483. [GW M46964; ISTC it00359000] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Treviso: Johannes Rubeus Vercellensis Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Thucydides Language A language of the resource it Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1483 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Valla, Laurentius (translator); Parthenius, Bartholomaeus (editor) Type The nature or genre of the resource Text