387 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f94b1e633c06b1b099f4d048c822e4b7.pdf e7168ed74e4efb0ed0ced3008cf5c372 PDF Text Text ,-,~,-liltt~oit 4~tt \l~css -- METRO Swmy. High 83, low 67. Monday: Rain Details, Page 2A Left, Anna Alpert holds her children, David, 3, and Gilana, 7, during evening services in Temp!e B'nai Israel in Muskegon, where the Jewish community is celebrating 100 years in the city. Rabbi Alan Alpert, Anna Alpert's husband, conducted the ,services. On Guard For 157 Years ,, SUNDAJSeptember 18, i988 For home delivery call 222-6500_ 75 cents : ~or Jews, a life ofcomproririse Once ignored, small M,usk_egon minority celebrates centennial BY DAVID CRUMM Free Press Religion Writer GEORGE WALDMAN/Detroit Free Press It's a Friday evening in Muskegon, the start of the Jewish sabbath, and 15year-old Amy Scolnik would rather watch the Mona Shores High School football game and go dancing than sit in the temple for an hour, listening to Hebrew readings with a handfui of adults. At dinner, she blushes crimson as she talks with her parents, Robert and Merle Scolnik, about skipping the service. Her father is president of Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, and he's in the midst of an interview about a major when they say that. They don't think of celebration marking the city's Jewish us," he says, pausing, centennial. "I don't say anything about it when "This has been a problem all that happens. We don't make waves." But this month, waves of public through school," says Merle Scolnik. With only 87 Jewish families in a attention will sweep over the tiny metropolitan area of 150,000 people, Jewish community celebrating its 100 it's a safe bet that school events won't years in Muskegon. More than 50 programs are schedbe scheduled around their needs. uled, from a gala opening on Saturday l\my is a junior varsity cheerleader with a solo concert by violinist ltzhak and soon leaves for her game. Perlman to a new exhibition of works But the discussion reminds Robert by artist Marc Chagall in November to Scolnik of a civic club whose meetings classes on Jewish heritage in the public he attends; invocations often end with, schools. The program was planned "in Jesus' name." "They don't realize we're here See MUSKEGON, Page 4B � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Temple B'nai Israel Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Temple B'nai Israel (Muskegon, Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Muskegon (Mich.) Scrapbooks Synagogues Women--Societies and clubs Minutes (Records) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Preston, Marilyn Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Text Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Circa 1920s-2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-08_Detroit-Free-Press-Centennial_1988 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Detroit Free Press Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988-09-18 Title A name given to the resource "For Jews, a life of compromise" Description An account of the resource Newspaper clipping from the Detroit Free Press of an article about Temple B'nai Israel's centennial celebration. Subject The topic of the resource Jews--United States Muskegon (Mich.) Detroit free press Centennial celebrations, etc. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project. Relation A related resource L'dor V'dor (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c150c42df5d80bb6bf8cc543935bdc72.mp3 62c69cbe0fe79a2ddf83b73ef83dfe14 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7eeeebf32dc0410571db954af87f8ee.pdf f8aa78585478ae33bc5db1b3738132d5 PDF Text Text Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 1 Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollannek and I... Ken Kutzel: …and Ken Kutzel… EG: …and I’m here today with… Ray Foster: Ray Foster. EG: Uh, at the old school house in Douglas, Michigan on July 23rd, uh, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to meet with us today, we’re interested in learning more about your family’s history, in particular experiences of summer. Can you please state your full name and spell it for us? RF: Raymond Edward Foster, R A Y M O N D, E D W A R D, F O S T E R EG: That’s great, alright, so we’ll, we’ll continue our conversation here, you brought in a few things here about your farm, you want to tell us a little bit about where it is and… RF: Well this, this was kind of a family farm, um, my mother, mothers’ parents and uh, her grandparents uh, um, bought eighty acres. They came from Chicago in the late 1800’s and uh, bought eighty acres uh, near the corner of 66th street and uh, 126th and uh, they [pause] they farmed it and uh, [pause] uh, a lot of different things. They had blueberries and raspberries and uh, they had 20 head of cattle and uh, chickens and uh, at different times, different things, uh. Through the years and uh, they raised four daughters, my mother was the oldest and uh, [pause] she spent, she was the last one to leave the farm. The other daughters grew up, we got married and then before World War Two, and then my mother got married after World War Two and uh, so she spent more time on the farm. But as I was growing, when I grew up and [pause] I, I stayed there with my grandparents. They were in good health and uh, help them do things [pause] and uh, but mainly just really enjoyed the place. And uh, it was uh, just a just a beautiful retreat, and uh, a lot of great place to explore and uh, [pause] uh, [long pause] KK: Is the house still standing? RF: The house is still standing, it’s had several owners since then, and uh, but uh, [pause] but it’s been, it’s changed some. Uh, considerably. The house, the outside structure’s pretty much the same but it has a garage added to it, but uh, and uh… KK: I noticed it says here that that’s the Hines homestead? RF: Yes... KK: Is that what it was called? RF: Well yes, my, [stutters] I, I, I didn’t mention that but my, my great grandfather's name was Emo Hines and he came from Chicago and he was not a farmer but he kind of adopted the, the [stutters] hob hobby, but he had just one son, Otto who was my, my uh grandfather and my great grandfather was a German immigrant and uh, [pause] he uh, [pause] along with his son uh, they kind of developed the �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 2 land. They planted fruit trees and grape vineyards and, and uh, and raised cattle, and tilled the soil with a team of horses and uh, um, [pause] it was a [pause] a [pause] a labor of love I think, uh, uh, they uh, it stayed in the family till the 70’s and uh, so ah, let’s see where can I go from there uh, but I, but I, I spent a lot of time there in the 60’s, the 50’s and 60’s and uh, [pause] and uh, [pause] well… KK: How ‘bout, give another...tell us, you, the other day when we spoke with you. You started to tell us a story about one time when you were on the farm and the motorcycles came in... RF: Oh! KK: Would you talk about that please? RF: No, actually that was at my parents’ house… KK: Oh! RF: ...on M89 east of Fennville. KK: Well let’s talk about that anyway! [00:04:39] RF: Okay! Sure! Well it was probably ‘65 ‘66, maybe ‘64 ‘65 ‘66, [pause] I think by ‘67-’68 it kind of fizzled out. But, on a Memorial Day weekend or Fourth of July weekend, uh, you could hear, hear from a long ways away this, this sound of motorcycles coming, and there was long strings of them, and various, [stutters] grou-groups, probably a dozen in a group or so, maybe more, and they came from Detroit, Flint, and uh, [pause] uh, mainly east, on the other, eastern side of the state, but uh, I guess I could describe them as a colorful group. They weren't, they weren't necessarily uh, like uh, social club they were, they more of, of an old [stutters] I I I don’t want to make a comparison to the Hell’s Angels but they were, they were kind of that style. Uh, their, their jackets on the back had, had little titles like uh ‘Disciples from Hell’ or ‘Hell’s Disciples’ or that sort of thing. That theme was very popular, and uh, but when I was able to go to Saugatuck, uh, on those weekends it was incredibly busy, they would actually, unless you could prove you lived there they wouldn’t let you in they would stop at the top of the hill, they wouldn’t let cars down. And, the motorcycles would be rode up the entire like, from Phil’s all the way down to the corner and uh, they um, [pause] they would pretty much take over the town. As, as strange as that might sound, and and the police were, were usually, it wasn’t like today, they were, it was a small police force and they might rent a few, we referred to ‘them as Rent-a-Cops because they were just hired for that special occasion. And uh, I’m, I’m not aware of any major, uh, conflicts that uh, that occurred. There may have been some but I wasn’t really aware of anything, like a, any kind of a small riot or anything like that. I wasn't aware of anything like that but, but as a teenager it was quite a novelty to see that. To be exposed to that, and uh, [pause] so, [pause] um, [pause] well, that was pretty much it, I mean uh, just, just to see it, holiday was over they were gone… KK: Did that happen every weekend? Or… RF: No, no, no. Just on, I only saw it on a holiday weekends, and uh, so, that was uh, kind of a, unique thing. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 3 EG: What were the reactions of your parents, or grandparents? RF: Well you know I… EG: Or neighbors to that? RF: You know, as far as my, the uh, [pause] the [pause] my parents’ generation, I don’t think they uh, I don’t think really could comprehend what was going on. I don’t, [stutters] I, I was never aware that they, uh, it wasn’t something they were happy about, I’m sure, I I know that much but as far as uh, feeling threatened or anything like that or, uh, [pause] they just, they just looked at it as some kind of a temporary thing, a phase I think. I don’t think they thought of it as a, um, you know a… EG: Collapse of civilization… RF: [Laughs] Yeah! Sure, that, yeah. I’m sure they thought of something like that. Yeah…. KK: Although at that time, was the um, was the summer season, here in Saugatuck, I mean was it um, as long as it is now, er, you know? RF: Well, I think, I think I would say it is, um, people started coming up, [pause] um probably before memorial day and, and um, to their cottages and such and uh, they pretty much stayed until after Labor Day, shortly after Labor Day. Yeah, there was good numbers of people. It’s hard to make a comparison between then and now, because things just look at a lot different. They appear a lot different. KK: Why don’t you talk about that? RF: Well, I, I guess I could say that, at that time, it was a very affordable place to go, for, for the average middle class person, and [pause] even though it had a history [pause] from, that I had heard about, you know ‘Well Saugatuck is really one of, a place you want to go because [stutters] they, they, they have bars they stay open all night’ and um there’s that kind of atmosphere but, but as a young person, you, you kind of want to be exposed to a little bit of that. KK: Well sure! All: [Laugh] [00:09:54] RF: Just to, just to find out for yourself and uh, but, that’s, that’s probably the most striking thing, and the development, there’s much more development today. You could, you could see the water when you came in off of, of Blue Start and came into town and you could see the water, uh all the way. There were no condos or anything like that, and uh, uh, [pause] so, [pause] I hesitate using the word quaint, but if you, if you were there in the winter you might call it that, but the summer there was a lot of people so it wasn't really, it was more, it was a tourist town, it was strictly a tourist town. But uh, [pause] uh, the Coral Gables was a really popular place at that time, very popular place. People would be lined up waiting to get in, and uh, and [pause] uh, I do remember some scuffles out front just as a bystander watching some people. Probably some unruly people getting thrown out, and those things kind of stick �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 4 in your head. But, uh, [pause] uh [pause] it was an evolution I guess, you know it just evolved from, you know my parents’ generation, they probably would’ve saw something, even more, uh, more quaint I guess you’d say, more slow paced and um,[pause] uh, but things have, thing have evolved to what they are today and uh, it’s it is, but uh I suppose it’s relative in a way, but it is more, more expensive for the average person to just go anywhere and spend some time in a, a restaurant or a bar. EG: Beyond Coral Gables, were there other places that stood out to you? That you spent time, or… RF: Well… EG: Or stayed away from, or? RF: Well the Butler and Coral Gables were always the biggest two, biggest items, and uh, everything else was just really small. Like uh, there was a place called the Boathouse, and that was down at the end of the street, across Wick’s Park, in that area, and uh, and uh, all the other little places were just um, [pause] were lesser, and then, then I, one thing I remembered too in, in it may have been ‘68 or ‘67, you guys might know, the Blue Tempo came in… KK: Yes let’s talk about that RF: Well, you know, as, as a, as a person growing up at that time, I didn’t even, I didn’t even understand what uh, or fully understand what uh, [pause] um, what a gay, the whole concept of gay people was… EG: Sure… RF: So, uh, but I knew this was a unique place, and I knew it had, but, had I known more, in in hindsight, I might of, might of tried to go there because I know they had great music, and uh, I’m a great uh, admirer of that kind of, uh, music, and a great history for music and uh, but uh, [pause] uh because now, as a 70 year uh, and having lived in the area, or known people in the area for a long time, that whole uh, uh, [pause] uh, shall I say the [pause] the gay scene, is is a, it doesn't, it doesn't even leave an impression on me anymore. KK: It’s become part of the culture. RF: It’s part of the culture, and uh, so, but, but it was always know as a unique place. It was the location was unique and uh, everybody knew that this was a gay bar, and uh, and uh, so, I wish I could tell you I’d been there and experienced it but I, I can’t. A friend of mine was there and I only get bits and pieces from him, but uh, [pause] uh [pause] but uh. EG: What were some of the reactions or things that people, other people’s reactions or things that you’ve heard about? RF: About… EG: [Inaudible] RF: About, concerning that? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 5 EG: Yeah! Ray: Ah, [pause] you know, people uh, were not really very activist type people at that time. Most people, you know, they went about their own business and if something new came along, well they talked about it, but as far as being a [pause] being a objectionable thing or a something that really disturbed people. People just kind of...after a while it just blew by. [00:15:14] KK: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah, and uh, so, the reaction, my impression of the reaction wasn’t, wasn’t anything really big. EG: Just another bar, another club that has good music and we’re probably not going there. That kind of… RF: That kind of reaction. EG: That kind of reaction? RF: That kind of a thing yeah, that’s fair to say. Yeah. KK: You know um, a question I have for you, being a Douglas resident myself, uh, what are your memories of the Douglas side? RF: Well, I occasionally, I would go there with my uh, grandparents occasionally. There was, there was a little grocery store down on the end of the street towards the river, uh, where uh, um [pause] well there was a little novelty store there near Naughtons... KK: Yeah. RF: Near Naughtons store there, that at one time there was a grocery store there… KK: Was that Vansicles? RF: Vansicles, yes! And they would go there occasionally, and uh, [pause] and we would also pick uh, they they raised uh, raspberries so we would pick raspberries and we would bring them into town and right where the park is, where the ballpark is there was a man, a vendor there, [pause] and uh, he would take all we had and uh, he would sell them to the tourists and uh, gosh, just trying to remember his name now, he had a son who was blind [pause] um, [long pause] gah! KK: Well it’s alright, it will come to you when you’re not thinking about it. RF: Right. But anyway it was a, so we did that, we would hang out there for a while but at that time, across the street, the uh, there was uh, a Catholic School there too. So we knew the, we knew about that, and at that time the original Catholic Church wasn’t St. Peter's it was just down the street. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 6 KK: Right. RF: And uh, one little side light to that, I have a, uh, my dad [pause] had an uncle and uh, I [pause] and he was the first baby to be baptized there, and I should’ve brought the name, the baptized name was all the little organizations in town gave him a name and when he went back many years later he was embarrassed because they mentioned him, and brought him, and mentioned him and everything but his baptized name was uh, Peter Paul Benedict, uh, Jacob Ivan, [pause] Clark and uh, and they all gave him a name so, it was, it was an embarrassing thing for him as an adult. But uh, he did happen to be the first baby that was baptized there uh, he was a part of a large family that was also in the area. But [pause] but it was a, it was a, it was a incredibly quiet quaint little town. Just down the street there was a place called the Delicatessen and a man named Red Delky owned it and he had a baker working for him that was a refugee from Austria, a World War Two refugee, and an incredibly talented pastry chef and anybody my age can tell you, that lived in the area that they made the best bread and uh, and uh, uh [pause] sweet rolls and that sort of thing uh, that you could find anywhere. And uh, and uh, down a little bit further there was a little drug store so it was a, really a, had everything. KK: [Inaudible} RF: Just a little town! And uh, I uh, I would also go on Friday night, quite often on Friday night with my grandparents, near the corner of uh, Blue Star and uh, Maple Street, uh going to the north. There was a house on the right hand side, at one time it was a resort, owned by my grandfather's uncle, Fred Hines and [pause] they would pick up people, you would pick up people that came in on the boats and then bring them back to the resort and uh, his wife would uh, do the housekeeping and uh, he was just mainly just took them around town to the beach or wherever they wanted to go and uh, but, they had a little resort there. So but, in later years when I went there with my grandparents, the uh, the next generation down lived there, my, would be a cousin to my grandmother, grandparents, er grandfather and uh, so we would just go there, spend some time there with them, they would uh, talk about old times and that sort of thing, and uh, but uh, it was just [pause] a nice quiet little visit. But uh, I don't know, what else can I tell you? [00:20:46] KK: Do you remember the, uh, the rock festival at all? Were you involved in that, or? RF: I did go to the one at uh, near Goshorn Lake… KK: Okay, that’s Potawatomi Beach, right? RF: Potawatomi Beach, yes. Uh, yes, I did go to that in ‘68, I believe KK: I believe that’s what it was…. RF: I think it was in ‘68, and it was hot and dry and sandy roads and people would, uh, it was [inaudible] it was incredibly crowded and uh, you couldn’t get close to the band stand, it was just uh, again there was, there was that large influx of uh, motorcycle people and they kind of dominated an area there, but uh, so you could hear things from a distance unless you, unless you somehow got there real early and �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 7 worked your way in, but it was kind of a phenomenon I guess because the volume of people, yeah I think I, I think I read where cars were lined up all the way from, from that park all the way to the bridge at the river… KK: I have heard that…. RF: It’s hard to imagine… KK: Yeah EG: Right RF: So, and then they decided they’d never do that again, but uh, the history of those types of things are, is, is great. I mean when it goes back to uh, when they had a pavilion and then it’s the uh, got that racetrack… KK: Right… RF: But uh, I do remember, uh, probably the late 50’s when they had a Jazz Festival, the Saugatuck Jazz Festival, uh, at the racetrack there and uh, Duke Ellington and a few other celebrities were there and my grandparents farm was kind of a, like a mile south of there, on 126th and uh, just about half a mile from the corner of Blue Star and 126th, and with the windows open at night, I remember them introducing Duke Ellington and them mentioning his name, that always stuck in my, stuck with me forever after that. I thought, wow what would’ve been so great to be there… KK: And that sound would carry over because it was all farms… RF: Yes. KK: Yeah. RF: Pretty, quite open at that time. EG: So you could hear? You could hear music and…. RF: I could, yes, yeah, not really well but some, yeah. EG: Yeah. RF: And prior to that it was a stock car track, a little dirt stock car track and there was uh, um, uh, auto racing there. It was quite, for many years, it went on but uh, I never experienced that, I wish I had but uh, [pause] um [pause] KK: Any contact, uh at all, or anything you can share about contact with Oxbow or the people from there? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 8 RF: No, I never really knew about Oxbow until later I, I consider myself an art lover but I, I never really knew about it. I wish that I had known more about it at a younger age but it’s a, it’s a great great thing to have in the area. KK: Yeah, it was more a private club… RF: Way back! KK: And it's interesting that you bring that up because you're not the first person who said ‘We really didn't pay attention to it’. RF: No, I never really knew much about it, till later years, and uh, but uh... EG: Do you remember much of seeing many artists around? Seeing people painting in town, in Douglas or Saugatuck, or? RF: No, I always knew it was an art, artsy community but I didn't spend much time, you know, going from shop to shop, I uh, really at that point in my life, I wasn't really that, I was more, uh, driving your car, go to the beach, and uh that sort of thing, uh, and getting together with people, but uh, the art, [pause] I know it existed but I never, I was never exposed to it. [00:25:16] KK: Then, what was the beach like then? RF: Oh, it was great! Uh, there was, there was of course the Oval Beach, but then, the Douglas, Douglas had a beach, and then there was several beach on down, uh, there were then. I never remembered big crowds there like today. I have seen some photographs of big crowds but uh, but uh, it was a they were, they were fairly well kept up and uh, and uh, it was quite a thing to go the Oval Beach was uh, was really quite a special thing. KK: Were you guys aware at all of the nude beach? Or did that come later? RF: You know, I wasn't aware of that, I heard about it, no I heard about it. I did hear about it as a uh, probably in the late 60’s I heard about it. KK: Okay. RF: But uh, that’s really the end of it there, I, I uh, wasn’t curious about that. KK: Yeah, yeah. Had, had you ever been out on that Denison property with all those dunes? RF: Yes! I have! KK: Yeah that’s kind of, well talk about that a little bit, because that I think has to be seen to be believed. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 9 RF: Well, its, its south of the mouth of the river. I, I did walk that and to the, to the uh, old light house, in that area, and that's great. That was great country to explore and to follow it all the way up to the, to bald head and then back down, it was a great, great experience and very natural area and uh, you could see the old pilings in, in the pine and that little, where the channel was… KK: Yeah, the lagoon, yeah. RF: ...and the lagoon yeah and uh, and then uh, well of course there was the pier you could walk out on that, but [pause] uh, [pause] it was a, you I considered it a great area, beautiful area but I never got to the north side there north side of the channel where the Denison’s property was I never really saw that. Uh… KK: Well it was hard to get out there, always had to take that dug road… RF: Yeah, Dugout road, yeah. I, my mother, in later years uh worked for uh Ken Denison and planted, I think, she and another lady cleaned the boats when it was, when it, when they were in business out there at the end and…. KK: You're talking Broward Marine… RF: Broward Marine, yes, and, and they uh, uh, my mother planted a whole row of daffodils along the bank there and was around long enough to see how nice they looked and uh, and uh, she thought the Denison’s were great people, generous people and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] uh, [pause] only knew, she knew the dad some but knew Ken more uh, but uh, never, I, I don’t know if the big house was built at that time but there was a house there along with the uh, the [pause] marina and the business, but uh, [pause] um, [pause]. The uh, [pause] well going back to the farm there uh, back then all the roads were dirt roads pretty much uh, they hadn’t paved a lot of the roads there and uh, so you uh, that was a [pause] a back in time compared to how it is today. KK: Yeah, where did you go to school? RF: I did go to school in Fennville that's where my family actually lived. KK: So was it the old high school there, or? RF: I did go in the old, to the old high school for a couple years, before it was uh, not used anymore but uh, uh… KK: And what about for a grade school was in Fennville also? RF: Yep, that was also in Fennville, yeah, uh… KK: I'm going to ask you a funny question… RF: ...no, no it’s fine. KK: Did, did you have Mrs. Northrup for any… �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 RF: Yes! Yes I did! [Laughs] KK: [Laughs] Oh, that’s, so, she’s a real good close of mine, and um… RF: Oh my gosh, how old is she? KK: She’s about 93, er um, yep. She has dinner at my house every Monday, in fact she’ll be over tonight… [00:30:03] RF: Really? KK: I’ll have to mention you. RF: She was my third grade teacher. KK: But its, its, she, I was just telling, ah, somebody today uh, we go out with her quite often and no matter where we go, she’s had every person… RF: Oh, no doubt. KK: She taught at, yeah, she taught in Fennville. RF: Yes. KK: Oh that’s kind of wonderful. RF: She was a sweet lady, I, I can tell you that. KK: And it was her family that owned, uh Sunny Shore. RF: Oh, really? KK: On [inaudible] the river road. RF: See I thought, I thought they lived more out on the...south. KK: They lived in Allegan, but it was her husband’s family that went there as kids. RF: Okay, and she did have a son, that's true. Is that true? Yes? KK: Ah, yep, yeah uh [inaudible] Jeff! RF: Okay. 10 �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 11 KK: Her son Jeff, he’s still around. RF: Alright, alright. KK: Yeah. RF: Yeah. KK: It’s a small world! RF: Oh! It’s a lot smaller than you realize if you, if we really, I mean it, when I look at this, or even a newer one I, I know so many of the people on these placards or I’m familiar with them. KK: Well, it’s a small area, really. RF: Yeah, well, for example uh, uh, this farm here this Ed Work farm… KK: Mhm RF: Mrs. Work, Mary Work, she was a teacher in the Saugatuck Douglas area for many years but then she taught in Fennville. She, she uh, her family, her dads family were, were involved in the uh, basket factory. KK: Okay. RF: The name, you probably have seen it. KK: Yep! RF: In concern, in relation to the basket factory, and uh, so and she she donated a ton of really great photos of uh, the history of the area, I’m sure they’re in the archives. KK: I’m sure they’re in the, I’m sure they’re in the collection. EG: [Inaudible] RF: Yeah they’re great. KK: Well that's, that great, um, let’s see. Uh, well you brought a couple of other photos here so, why don't we take a look, why don't you tell us, I see uh… RF: Well, I have, I have to show you this photo here. This photo, and Mrs. Northrup would remember this… KK: I should’ve brought her! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 12 RF: Well, anyway, this house is no longer there but if you're on the river road there, you go past where sunny side... KK: Sunny Shore, yeah. RF: and you keep going East to, there’s a curve, where 62nd… KK: Yep! RF: ...Where... KK: I know exactly where it is. RF: This house used to be right on that, on the right hand side of that property. That property went way back to a family named Purdy… KK: Okay… RF: Uh, Erastus Purdy he was a civil war veteran and he, he owned that property and they had a landing down below, on the river uh, and a man named uh, one of his sons [inaudible] Purdy they had a boat named after him, and uh he he was kind of a, well I don't know if it was just a tourist, tourist boat or if it was a working boat, but anyway they had a landing there and uh, were I think way back there was actually a trading post there, on that location right down below…. KK: Could be, yeah, because that's, you know, Mac’s Landing is down from there… RF: Yes! Yeah, right it has, there's an association between that and Mac’s Landing… KK: Okay… RF: But uh… KK: Yeah, that's very interesting. RF: Yeah. KK: That already looks like it had fallen on hard time there… RF: Oh yes! Yes. KK: Is that sand or is that snow in front? Is that a little bit of snow? RF: It is snow. EG: It looks like snow, yeah. KK: Yeah it looks like it because I don't see uh, leaves on the tree there. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 13 RF: But I’m sure it was a beautiful house at one time. KK: Yeah! EG: Yeah, lots of great shingle work in the gables and on the octagonal bay. Queen Anne revival… RF: The uh, one of the daughters her, think it was her granddaughter of the original owner, her name was Purdy and she had a friend of uh, she had somebody drive her to Saugatuck or wherever she wanted to go, and the car was a Pierce-Arrow. KK: Oh! RF: Was a beautiful old Pierce-Arrow and uh my mother always remembered that because it, nobody had a Pierce-Arrow. KK: You know what, gosh, Joan Northrup told me a story about that car. RF: I’ll bet. KK: Yeah, and I, bet you she, she knew who the people were. RF: Oh she would know that, yes! I know who the, uh, driver was the driver man’s name was uh, Cleo Art and he lived just down, down 62nd, er 66th street there he had a farm down there and uh, he was the driver and whenever she wanted to go somewhere, he would take her. But uh… [00:35:04] KK: That's great! RF: Yeah. KK: Tell us about your family, do you have children, er? RF: I have two sons, yes! KK: Okay. RF: and uh, they don't live in the area, one’s in Rhode Island and ones in Grand Rapids, but uh, and they they visit, or we visit them but uh, uh, but my family my mother uh, married a man from Fennville and they started a little uh, my my dad and my uncle in the, actually before World War Two in the late 30’s they started a little Mom and Pop grocery store meat market right on the main street where the Salt of the Earth is… KK: Oh! Okay! �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 14 RF: Yeah that was a, and then there’s a stairway going upstairs and then just to the, to the left of that was a little clothing store which was operated by by um my dad and my uncles father, and he had that since the uh early 20’s and uh then it was inherited by the next son and he ran it until the uh, late 60’s and then my uh my dad and my uncle uh, when they were drafted in World War Two they, let the people, the uh, there was a, there was a two brothers that uh, they purchased it, purchased it from they took it back over again and ran it until they got back from the service and they took it back again. KK: Oh that's interesting. RF: Yeah, and uh but they they had a little grocery store there and so so myself and my brothers we worked for them, worked in the store there and that sort of thing and uh… KK: In Fennville, you know obviously where the downtown is and then you know, as you come west, there’s, now it’s a parking lot but there’s a big empty area there, that’s you know, did that burn down? What was there? RF: No. Uh, well, at one time there was a bank on the uh, on the corner just uh, well it would be the south, uh, south, uh, southeast corner. KK: Yeah. RF: …and then, and then no there was a hardware store quite a large hardware store, farm implements on that corner and then next to that was a lumberyard… KK: Oh! RF: Yeah, going west and then next to that was the Fennville Herald newspaper house and it was real small little newspaper office with, and they had to set the type by hand, it was quite a thing, and uh, uh [pause] and then there was the business on the corner, Fennville tire but uh, yeah that was all businesses in there and there were houses behind there was a row of houses. KK: So what happened? Did it burn? RF: No, no... KK: They just tore it down? RF: There were no fires, uh yeah, it just [pause] it they, they were very old and I’m not sure how, where there was a [pause] in bad repair or the city bought it, I really don't know. I know the City now owns that, a large chunk of that land and uh, the uh Salt of the Earth uses part of it for a parking lot or other businesses but uh, yeah, there was a… KK: I’m glad to know that, I always wondered… RF: ...In the 60’s, in the 60’s it was a uh, it had had, a real upturn in economy, the canning factory was going great guns, three shifts, and uh, and uh, employment was high and uh a lot of migrant workers �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 15 were there in the summer and on weekends streets were full of people and uh, and then it kind of went down in the 70’s and 80’s and then that's just starting to come back again, yeah. KK: That’s very, very interesting. You have over here, that you said that you have a boat picture here? RF: Yeah this, this photo here [pause] this little sail boat was owned by a man named uh, Leo Tucker, and he was a fruit farmer uh, down by, on Hutchins lake and, and the name of the boat was the Kit Kat but it, it has a nice shot of the pavilion… KK: ...Oh, it looks wonderful! RF: ...and uh, and the uh, Coral Gables, and uh and uh this photo is my grandmother, uh, Otto Hines’ wife, Edith and it’s on top of Mount Bald Head and I’m going to say it’s not long after the pavilion was built, she was born in the 1870’s, late 1870’s so, she was a young woman but uh, you can see one of the large posts there, and uh, but you can see the pavilion and, and the two uh, [pause], parks…. [00:40:11] KK: ...and I love that you can see the old bridge… RF: Yes! The old bridge, yes... KK: The old bridge is still there… RF: Yeah, and so, and I did get this blown up and I’ve got a beautiful framed picture at home, those are my grandparents there, and uh, they were farmers their whole lives, and uh, when this, when their farm was built it was the first farm on that street 126th from 66th to Blue Star and that road was known as Hines Road. KK: Oh, really? RF: Yeah. KK: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so you're lucky to have such nice photos… RF: ...Yeah I am very lucky, these are, this is uh, uh a later picture with some vineyards in the front and they moved the windmill to the back of the house, and er the well and uh, but uh, it was still horse and buggy days, you can see buggy tracks here and uh, uh yeah that's pretty much… KK: ...Really really wonderful, thank you for bringing those. RF: Well… KK: ...Do you have any more questions, that you have Eric, that were on the list that we were supposed to ask? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 16 EG: No, we moved through a good list of things. Lots of really great things some things we haven't heard before… RF: ...Well thanks… EG: ...or that compliment things… KK: Yeah no, it's fun and I’m, I’m going to get you together with Joan Northrup… RF: Okay! I’d like that. KK: Yeah. EG: Anything else you’d like to say? RF: Well, here's one thing I’d like to add. You know the pavilion was, was such a highlight of the, uh, my parents and my, my grandfather Otto, he knew one of the uh, one of the uh, managers or something so he could always get in, and he had four daughters so, I’m assuming they all got in, that would be six people but at that time in history, and I don't know if you folks have ever heard this before, but and I, I don’t bring it up to sound like I’m uh, anti-Semite or anything like that but, the seats were, were marked ‘Gentiles’ for Gentiles and for Jews and one time, I don't know if it was a little crowded or what but my grandfather sat in a place where it said ‘For Jews’ and my mother will never forget this, she says a woman came by and just sat right on his lap until he got up. KK: No, there are, there are a lot of stories, it was very anti-Semitic, uh in Saugatuck and uh… RF: ...Well, yeah, I don’t, I’m not aware of the uh, I know it was, there was a separation there… KK: Yeah… RF: But… KK: They were not allowed, the Jews were not allowed to stay in a lot of the hotels… RF: Oh, really? KK: Yeah RF: Okay KK: Yeah, there’s some, there's some interesting, uh records of that and um, but uh that’s one story I have not heard. RF: Yeah KK: I guess, I guess a lot would’ve come over on those boats, you know what I mean? �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 17 RF: From Chicago. KK: From Chicago, yes, so you’d have to accommodate it. RF: There were a few that uh, a few that were, that lived here. There were a few Jews that stayed here, that were, almost like natives and uh, of course South Haven had a… KK: Yes… RF: ...had a larger population of that and uh, [pause] uh, the, the old Glen Shores Golf Club, I know this because my Dad was best man with one of the sons of the owner who, who started the business just before the depression and uh, he had big plans for it and everything and some of the print outs of uh, advertising and everything he advertised it as a Christian place and he, he had a very subtle way of saying, the, the Jews weren't necessarily welcome. KK: It’s hard to imagine… RF: ...It’s a novelty, it’s uh, it’s uh, it was a different world back then, and it was long before World War Two. EG: Do you remember much, and thinking along those same lines, do you remember much uh, African American, People of Color in Saugatuck Douglas area? RF: No, I don't. In, in school when I was growing up uh, we had two or three families and that was it and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] um, [pause] I really don’t, I really don’t no. EG: Not much, not much reaction… [00:45:01] RF: ...Oh no, no, uh, no not at all, uh, there was uh, there was a Jamaican man who worked for one of the farmers there and I knew him a little bit. He used to come into town every, every uh every Saturday to buy his groceries and he, his skin was almost purple you know he, he was very dark, and but he was Jamaican and he uh, a good natured person and uh, hard working person and uh, he about the only uh, man of color that we would see. The uh, Spanish, er uh, I shouldn't say Spanish I should say the Mexican population, we always called them Spanish [pause] for some reason but Mexican is what they were, but Mexican didn't sound right so people said Spanish for some reason... KK: ...Well probably because that’s what they spoke… RF: ...I suppose that’s it, and so, they started uh, their numbers have rapidly increased uh, in uh, in recent years, and there were always Spanish people in school with us. Saugatuck was a little different, that was a little more unique, it was a little more [pause] all [pause] Anglo, all uh, all white. Even to this day it’s more that way, but uh… KK: ...Well that’s really interesting. �Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel July 23 2018 18 EG: One other question that I’ve asked people as we’ve done these recordings. So we’re saving these, with the idea that these will be around 50 plus years from now, so uh, thinking ahead, imagining someone listening to this in uh, 2068 uh, are there, is there anything you’d like them to know about your life or the community here, as it is today? RF: I can just say that, that I can’t complain about anything, I learned a good work ethic, working for my grandparents and uh, and my parents taught me a good work ethic and uh, I think that was a big benefit for me growing into adulthood but on the other side, I got to see, I got to see a great community kind of evolve into a more modern day, uh, [pause] uh, [pause] place and, and those are great memories, but I also have the memories that my parents and grandparents uh, told me about how it was back then in the horse and buggy days and uh, but uh, [pause] I guess I’d just like to say that it was a great place to grow up, uh, a great place to experience. The summers were uh, the winters were kind of brutal but the summers were, summers were great, and uh, Lake Michigan, to have Lake Michigan and uh, the sand dunes and uh, [pause] the river and everything it was a great experience and uh, no regrets. KK: Good! RF: I guess that I would regret that I didn't ask more questions uh, to my grandparents, uh, to try to absorb a little more information but uh, uh, but uh, other than that I have no regrets. It was great, and I love being able to talk to someone that experienced the same things I did, and uh, relate to the same things, those are always fun, but uh, this historical society is doing everything it can to preserve these things and, I, I salute them for that, that's a great thing. KK: Well thank you very much! RF: Thank you. EG: You're more than welcome. Alright, well with that, that will conclude this interview. Thanks again. RF: Thank you. [00:49:24] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-FosterR-20180723 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Foster, Raymond Edward Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-23 Title A name given to the resource Raymond Foster (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Ray Foster grew up on a family farm near Douglas, Michigan. In this interivew, Foster remembers the motorcycle gangs driving through town during summer holiday weekends, the rock music festival in 1968, and the Saugatuck Jazz Festival. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Holland (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Music festivals Motorcycle gangs Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db8c556ec34f40d5fdd858402b00bc2a.mp3 823b012ab485d3ffa05d112e3595a836 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac41182e39d0662fa48c3ecb0a6e95c7.pdf 5d53b77f656dc27c6abbc7d4c8d66c7f PDF Text Text Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 1 Katelyn Bosch: This is Katelyn Bosch and I'm here today with Jane Underwood at the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas Michigan on the 8th of October 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I am interested to learn more about your family experiences in the summer at Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it. Jane Underwood: Okay. Jane Underwood J A N E U N D E R W O O D KB: Alright, so Jane, when and how did your family first come to Saugatuck Douglas? JU: Well, my father’s family would spend the summer. There were two hotels up in Macatawa on either side of the channel and my grandparents and my father and his sister and older brother would spend the summer up there. My grandmother loved the idea of the hotel, she could play bridge with her friends in the afternoon. They had all their meals there and one afternoon according to family lore my grandfather announced that he had bought property in Saugatuck and they were going to build a tent there. Well my grandmother, Mae [inaudible] Underwood was not very happy about that. Saugatuck was considered very bohemian with all those artists. [KB laughs] JU: I think my grandmother was a bit of a snob. [KB laughs] JU: But, as it turned out. My grandfather pushed ahead and they started out in what was called a tent. It had a wooden floor and about three feet was wood and then they had canvas and but they had a real roof. Eventually, it became my large playhouse. As the years went on they built a cottage and seemingly every years, they added a room onto it, and as my father told me my grandfather wanted some peace and quiet, so he’d add another bedroom or two, for guests, and that was the family cottage until 1960 when unfortunately it burned out after the building was burned down. But, in the meantime the family summered in there, and enjoyed it. My grandfather used to row my grandmother down the river to the big pavilion where they would dance. It was quite a place. That’s the building that burned down that caused my cottage, family cottage to burn down. KB: So, your cottage burned during the same fire as the pavilion? JU: Yes. KB: Oh, okay. JU: The embers went across the river. There was a window switch and uh, my family cottage was the other building to burn but there were numerous fires in the woods. KB: Oh, okay. JU: But, the family enjoyed the cottage. My grandparents died and my father bought his sister out of her share so it became my family’s college and we always came up the end of, well the last week of April to open up the cottage. And we were there until, uh I would go back to school, and I was starting school and we’d close the cottage up, usually Columbus Day weekend which would be today. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 2 KB: Oh, yeah! JU: Yes, so, because the cottage really wasn't winterized. KB: Oh, yeah. At this time of year, you don't want to go much past this time of the year, in a cottage that’s not winterized. JU: We had a furnace, but it wasn’t insulated or anything. But um, growing up, spending the summers in Saugatuck, it was just a magical time, basically. There were all kinds of things for children to do. Um, as I got older I would start taking dance lessons from the Gallis’, ballet and tap. Art classes from Cora Bliss Taylor usually uh, Saturday and Wednesday for art classes and I’ve often said that Cora Bliss Taylor, all teachers and professors I had through way past post graduate work, she was probably the best teacher I ever had. She could take a group of oh, kind of let’s say rambunctious children, we weren’t unruly, well there might have been one or two. But she could settle us down, and we would produce art work. I, I will never be exhibiting at the Art Institute but it certainly made me appreciative of artwork and in my travels I never miss an art museum. [00:05:02] KB: Absolutely, yeah. JU: All over the world. But, um, there's [pause] ceramics lessons from Jean Goldsmith, um, I think I really did know how to swim but I did take swimming lessons over at Oval Beach. KB: Oh, wow. JU: And uh, there was all a old man as a lifeguard and there was an old wooden row boat and he took us, he dropped us in the water. You know what? Everyone started swimming, of course they wouldn't do that today. KB: Yeah! No! JU: I mean thinking about it, it’s just kind of like, oh my gosh. [KB laughs] JU: You know the liability and that. KB: Right. JU: But, those were different days and usually the, all the classes were in the morning and in the afternoon we’d go over to the beach and I'm paying the price now with skin cancers. Uh, 73 over at Oval Beach, but I still go over there and then I started sailing. We had an outboard boat which I learned how to run even though I wasn't supposed to take it out. But, I’d get my friends and we didn’t always have life preservers but we had fun on the water, and then my parents bought me the sailboat and I started sailing at the Saugatuck Yacht Club, and I’m still sailing there. KB: So you got some good use out of all the resources in Saugatuck. JU: Oh! It’s a, Saugatuck, its, for children in my day and I think it's still true today. It was just so many things to do. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 3 KB: Mhm. JU: And one thing that is different now, families came up and stayed for the entire summer. KB: Right. JU: The fathers might stay in the city and come up on weekends, but the mothers and children were here for two, two and a half months. KB: Mhm. Yeah. JU: And that's not the case anymore. People only come up for a short period of time because so many of the children are in soccer or, whatever else there in. KB: Yeah. It's, too many obligations back. JU: Yeah, exactly. KB: Yeah. JU: But we still have a lot of children at the yacht club taking sailing lessons. It’s fun. KB: Well what was your in initial impression? Do you remember what you, when you first saw Saugatuck? JU: I was an infant. [Laughs] KB: Oh, okay so you don’t have any memories then? JU: No, but always coming when I’d get off, well now especially getting off the expressway and going down Ferry Street and Park Street, it's always felt like home. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: Even though I had a home in Chicago. KB: Yeah. JU: It’s just this was the place, a friend of mine said Saugatuck’s always been her happy place. It just, there’s a feeling of, I don't know optimism, and fun, and friends and just a lot going on, its fun. KB: yeah. JU: My friends in Chicago when I said I was going to live most of the time in Saugatuck after I retired said well what are you going to do? I mean, I said well, there’s plenty to do, in the winter it’s just there's [pause] right now. This week I’m going to be out, oh let’s see, I've been see in the last six nights and I got three more nights to go. KB: [Laughs] busy social schedule. JU: Yes, exactly. KB: Yeah, uh, can you share any particular memories about living here? Things or moments that are especially memorable for you either good or bad? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 4 JU: Well, I can remember when a building across the road from my cottage was fire and we thought our cottage was going to go. KB: Oh. JU: Yeah, my father moved the car down to Mount Baldhead and we went and sat in our boat, which was right on the river there. Uh, they seem to have a lot of fires. KB: Yeah it sounds like it. JU: Exactly, exactly. KB: And it was ultimately taken by a fire. JU: Mhm, well wooden buildings, it’s, it’s always been a problem. KB: Yeah. Um, were there any other places or institutions that were important to you in Saugatuck Douglas? Or places, key places that you hold dear memories? JU: So many places, Oval beach. The yacht club, sailing and the Pump House Museum. Um, just, there's just so many nice things in this community. KB: Mhm. JU: and so many people. KB: Yeah. JU: And uh, and people work together. KB: Right. JU: We're trying to save as much of the environment as we can. Um, we lost the Presbyterian Camp, to development. So many of the huge big trees have been cut down and taken out, it’s just, it’s kind of worrisome. KB: Yeah. JU: Although someone said, well your family is here and they probably cut down some trees to build the cottages. [00:10:06] KB: Yeah. JU: But [pause] I guess that's life. KB: It feels worse when it’s a larger development then? JU: Yeah. KB: One cottage, or? I, I, understand. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 5 JU: And then they’re just tearing up the, the dunes, the dunes have always just been so beautiful and the wildlife, I mean just now coming over here I saw some deer, I saw some wild turkeys the other day. KB: Mhm. JU: It's just kind of a, a special place. KB: Yeah, definitely. [Pause] How do you think, things other, well you’ve kind of talked about how somethings have changed in your whole experience with Saugatuck. Are there anything else that stick out as things that have changed or stayed the same in this area? JU: Well, people used to come as I said, and stay for longer periods of time, especially the cottage people. Now, so many of the cottages are seasonal rentals. Just around my house, my cottage, um, I live by a summer hotel which has been there even before my family college was built over a hundred years ago. But the cottages are all, for the most part seasonal rentals, and you don't know people who own it anymore. KB: Right. JU: You have to kind of go find out who it is. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: And it's kind of worrisome because I think a community can kind of lose its cohesiveness, when you have so many summer, or rentals, short term rentals. KB: Right. JU: I know people want to make money, and uh they buy property and they figure then can, you know rent them out, pay the mortgage or whatever. KB: Mhm. JU: I think that's something that maybe the city fathers really need to look at. KB: Yeah, definitely. Did you have any summer jobs while you were here? JU: No, not when I was here, I started working uh, when I was in college at the Museum of Science and Industry. KB: Okay. JU: And uh, if you quit during the summer they were, not going to hire you back. Well I quit my first year in the middle of August and um, I wanted some time before I went back to college, and my mother called me and said she’d gotten a call from the museum, would I work Thanksgiving and Christmas. So, I did that for, for the four years. KB: Oh, okay, yeah. JU: It was a great job, I mean my highest salary was 99 cents an hour. KB: [Laughs] When was that? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 6 JU: This was in 1963. KB: Okay. JU: and it wasn’t much, but it was just so interesting. I got you to do back up VIP tours. Which means I walk with the, um, Secret Service. KB: Oh. JU: Visiting dignitaries coming to Chicago that was one of the favorite places to take them because Museum of Science and Industry is world famous. KB: Yeah. JU: It's patterned after the Deutsches Museum in Munich and um, that was really kind of interesting. KB: Yeah. JU: One of the best parts was I’d get to have lunch in the executive dining room. KB: Really? JU: The director of the museum would be would be with the VIP and then I will be tagging along with the secret service. That was fun, I enjoyed that. KB: [Laughs] That sounds fun. So you were a teacher by training? JU: Yes. KB: So you taught in Chicago? JU: I taught in Chicago, at my Alma Mater! KB: Oh! JU: South Shore High School and there's quite a few of us here in the Saugatuck area who graduated from South Shore High School on the South side of Chicago and um. KB: You all ended up in Saugatuck? JU: Well, for various, and yeah, if you, Chicago, if you lived on the South side, you’d go away in the summer to Michigan. If you lived on the North side, the chances were very good you’d go up to Wisconsin. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: And if you lived on the West side or the west suburbs, [pause] you had a choice. KB: Yeah. JU: But many of them can to Saugatuck. Shorewood, which is a development over on the lake is mostly people from the Oak Park area originally. I don’t know if you've interviewed anyone from there or not. KB: I'm not sure. I haven’t, but we might have somebody else who has. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 7 JU: Okay, I have a friend who probably should have interviewed because um, their family cottage I think was started in 1926. KB: Oh wow. JU: In Shorewood. KB: Okay. JU: And they still have the, the original cottage. I was just talking to her this morning. KB: That’s amazing, what’s her name? JU: Uh, Lucy Reinege Hoight. [00:15:00] KB: Okay we’ll see if we can get her interviewed. JU: Yeah, she’d have to come up here and uh, she was supposed to come up this last weekend to help out with the benefit that we had but she had a cold and so better stay in Barrington. KB: [Laughs] Yeah, um if you stayed in Saugatuck, did you ever go to Douglas? Or if you stayed in Douglas did you ever go to Saugatuck? JU: Well, Saugatuck and Douglas have a rather unusual relationship. Um, childhood friend of mine, she was born in Chicago but she came here when she was quite young with her parents and she fell in love with a gentleman from Douglas. Before they got married she said, Jane I can’t live in Douglas! I mean, I’m from Saugatuck! Well, they eventually did live in Douglas, but it's kind of, it’s kind of hard to explain. I mean if you're from Saugatuck, you're from Saugatuck. KB: Mhm. JU: If you’re from Douglas, [pause] what can I say? I mean I have go through Douglas to go to downtown Saugatuck. KB: Yeah [Laughs] JU: Because I live across the river. KB: Oh yeah. JU: And Campbell road is the dividing line. KB: Yeah. JU: I, I met some friends at church recently and I said where do you live and she said Douglas, I said oh that’s too bad, and then we all started to laugh. I shouldn’t have said that. Douglas is a neat town, and I have many friends in Douglas too. KB: [Laughs] JU: But there’s that rivalry. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 8 KB: Hm, yeah. JU: I don't know if you heard it from other people or not, but uh. KB: I have. JU: Oh, okay. KB: It’s interesting because they’re so close, but yet very distinct. JU: Well, Saugatuck’s always been the tourist town. KB: Yeah. JU: And Douglas was more of, you know, people who lived here, and for a long time downtown Douglas looked like kind of, well, then a group got together. Really it’s just the, you know, the main street is here, its lovely. KB: Yeah. JU: Interesting stores, and they, you know, they decorate and you might have heard about big parade over holiday, the 27th. KB: I have. JU: Yes. KB: Yes. JU: We call it the adult parade. KB: [Laughs] JU: There was a children's parade in Saugatuck in the afternoon, and we have fun over here every evening. KB: Yeah, interesting. JU: I can remember when I’d practically know everyone in the Douglas parade. But now it’s gotten so big that it’s just, humongous. Just to find a place to park to go and stand on the sidewalk is, a major undertaking. KB: Is it because of out of town people? Or because the town has grown? JU: It’s a lot of people from up for the weekend. KB: Okay. JU: It’s, it's the last big weekend really of the season. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: And a lot of people come from the surrounding communities. KB: Okay. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 9 JU: Saugatuck Douglas we have kind of a, [pause] risqué kind of, many people feel we’re [pause] Sodom and Gomorrah? KB: [Laughs] That’s an interesting comparison. JU: Yeah, I, there’s some people, there are people that are very very religious and strict. I can remember when Holland was dry. I can remember when Holland, nobody would even answer their telephones on Sunday. All the stores were closed. KB: Mhm. JU: And people in Holland would come down to Saugatuck to make merry. KB: [Laughs] JU: And then Holland started relaxing. Meijer’s opened on Sunday. KB: Oh. JU: Woo! That was, and then just maybe the last 15 or 18 years Family Fare opened up on Sunday. KB: Mhm. JU: And you would think the world was coming to an end. I mean some people were just, so, they were just terribly, terribly upset. KB: Hm, I can imagine. JU: Holland’s changing. I mean you, I think you can even get liquor in Holland on Sunday now. KB: During certain hours, I think there are still some hours like in the morning where you can’t. JU: Well there’s, there’s laws, I think. KB: That might be Zeeland. JU: Okay, DeMond’s cannot sell liquor until noon on Sunday. KB: Yes, yep. JU: So you don't want go there around noon to get, you know, a, a loaf of bread, because the line sometimes can be… KB: Oh really? JU: Way too long, yes. From the people who are going to buy. KB: Interesting. JU: Liquor. But I mean, the whole country is, I don’t know, we have these laws, new laws and things like that, that just [pause] Saugatuck always did well with the Holland people coming down to drink. [00:20:05] KB: Huh, they didn't have any animosity towards them or anything? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 10 JU: The Holland people? No, they just take the money to the bank. KB: Yeah. JU: Money is money. KB: Money is money. I want to go back to what you said about taking lessons from Cora Bliss Taylor. Did you get any other interactions with our community? JU: Well we used to go down to Oxbow, um, at the end of the season they always had what they called the burial of the year. They would have a cement plaque that they would bury and walk about what went on through the year, and uh, that was always kind of fun ceremony. KB: Oh, interesting. JU: Recently they’ve had um, what they call the open studio nights, on Friday nights? KB: Right. JU: Where it’s Oxbow but you can go down there. I mean I've wondered around there, probably legally and illegally all my life. Uh, I met a woman at a meeting or something and I said, you know, when you met someone around here, where you live and she said on Oxbow Lagoon, and I said oh! With the pier? And she said yes, I said, oh, I’ve, I’ve sat on that pier. Well the fact of the matter is that there's several no trespassing signs there… [KB laughs] …and she looked at me, and I said well, you know, I, I’ve gone down there and she said, you and everybody else in this town!... [KB laughs] …well we’ve become very good friends. Even though I was trespassing on her property… KB: [Laughs] She could see past that. JU: Yes, eventually. Yeah, you wander around as kids you, you just, you know, you kind of go where you’re going to go. KB: Mhm. Um, did you spend time, near the water? And did you participate in any activities around the waterfront? JU: Oh, yes. Always. My parents had a little wooden outboard motor boat and as soon as I was strong enough to pull that cord on that 5 ½ horsepower Johnson, I was off. [KB laughs] JU: My parents never caught me at it, I was, I was careful and then course I’ve been sailing. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: Since I was twelve years old. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 11 KB: Yeah. JU: I love to go out sailing. KB: It’s a good place for sailing. JU: Yes it is. KBL Yeah. JU: I’ve tipped the sailboats over a few times and uh, maybe I’ll do it again, who knows? KB: [Laughs] Maybe. How, how would you describe Saugatuck Douglas to somebody never been here before? JU: Well, it's kind of a world away. Some people call it the New England or the Cape Cod of the Midwest. Its community where people, we have artists, we have sailors, we have environmentalists, uh we have tree huggers, which I'm one of. Um, and we can come together on a project. Sometimes we can fight each other on the things, um, but it’s a community that cares. KB: Mhm. JU: And that's I think, the most important thing. KB: Mhm. JU: Sometimes in big cities you kind of lose out that, you know caring for people, you know, what can you do to help people. KB: Yeah. JU: In a small town you know people. When you hear a siren, you kind of wonder, you know, uh oh, could it be somebody you know. When they're racing up to Oval Beach past my cottage, I’m, I’m kind of worried that someone in trouble in the water. KB: Yeah. JU: You know, you just, things like that bother you. KB: Absolutely. [Pause] Um. Can you tell us some of your, well, we’ve talked about memories of being here in the summer. Do you have any favorite memories that stand out? JU: Well see let's my mother had a rule that she did not, since the kitchen in the cottage was not like kitchen in Chicago. Oh, I can remember when we had an ice box when I was very very young and the ice man didn't come and was it hot. KB: Oh. JU: And my mother said, we’re getting an electric refrigerator and we did that afternoon. But, my mother had a rule, we ate out, Thursday night, Sunday night, and Tuesday night, for dinner. So we would frequent the various restaurants in town because my mother said it was no vacation for her. KB: Right. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 12 JU: If she had to cook every night. Exactly, and um… KB: So she spread it out. JU: Oh yes, we would eat out three nights a week. KB: Did you have a restaurant? [00:25:00] JU: Well, Louise Easton had a great restaurant on water the front. It's, walked a plank to get there, it’s where the Mermaid is now, and we used to go to Tera and let’s see, where else was a favorite place? Mount Baldhead Hotel a Thursday night, they called French Buffet, it was good. KB: That sounds good. JU: It was really good, ah, and you could sit on the swings on the porch. The Mount Baldhead Hotel burned in 59 as I remember it, 58 or 59, sounds about right. But, um, and we’d often go out for breakfast. The old rail grill had really good French toast. It was just yummy, we’d take the ferry across and the old rail was right there at the other side by the ferry. And um, we used to eat out a lot. As I said, my mother just, it was no vacation for her. KB: Yeah, that makes sense. JU: Yes, she enjoyed eating out. We did a lot of eating out in Chicago too as I remember. KB: In everyday not vacation life. JU: Yeah, it, hey, makes life easier. KB: It does. JU: We’ve always had good restaurants here in Saugatuck. KB: Yeah. There’s still some good ones. JU: Mhm. KB: Did you get into any types of shenanigans? And were you a participant, instigator, or bystander? JU: Hm, let’s skip that question. KB: [Laughs] JU: I’ve, I’ve gotten into things over the years, uh, probably still getting into things. But uh, no I had a group and we had fun, let’s put it that way. KB: You enjoy it. JU: Yeah, we’d be out by the boat, and we’d see the police patrol, and uh more than once I had to beach the boat because we were probably lacking in life preservers. KB: Oh. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 13 JU: Yeah, that's, that's one of the things. KB: What was your impression of law enforcement? Did you feel comfortable around them? JU: Yeah? I mean, I didn't have much interaction with them. KB: Okay. JU: The Justice of the Peace was a family friend, um, he used to hold court. Um, just, we did have an intruder one time. Uh, on our porch in the middle of the night and we called the police, they came and he ran off. He did two or three times and then finally our neighbor Bill Bors who owned the Beachway Hotel at the time, came with his old civil war rifle. [KB laughs] And held him until the police came. And they got him down, I think he, the guy was high on drugs. KB: Oh. JU: Took him over to Allegan, and the police said, well you don’t have to go over, I mean, it’s like 3 o’clock in the morning. But he got bailed out the next day. [KB laughs] Turns out he was some kind of a big wig from some company over in Detroit, I think he had some acid or something that made him just nuts. But he, was just coming up on our porch and there were no steps, you had to kind of swing up on it. KB: That must have been kind of scary. JU: It was, I went down and got a rake, a metal rake, and I was going to go swinging at him. [KB laughs] Now people, Saugatuck’s gotten kind of wild but you know the riots that they talk about, they passed over my head. The, you know, the Jazz festival things and stuff like that. Living over on the other side it was always, we didn’t really hear about it. We’d read about it in the newspaper. The next day or something like that but it was, it was kind of world of its own. It was the summer people. KB: Mhm. JU: And your friends, and that was about it. KB: Yeah. JU: We’d go to town every day to get the mail. I still have to get my mail at the post office. As a friend of mine, who’s since died said, you can spend half a morning going to the post office and meeting your friends and talking, finding out what's going on. It’s true. KB: [Laughs] That actually leads well into my next question, which is, what do you remember about the social life, uh, being here in the summer and who did you socialize with? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 14 JU: Well let's see, um, people that I would take classes with. There were parties, parties, church parties, uh, yacht club parties. Bonfire parties on the beach. Um, it was always just kind of, a, a gang of kids. KB: Okay. JU: And you just had a great time. KB: Yeah. JU: Some of them are of still around. [00:30:00] KB: [Laughs] That’s awesome. So now um, I have a few questions about looking into the future. JU: Okay. KB: For Saugatuck and what your hopes are. So, um, well my, my first question is what are some of your hopes for the future for yourself and for your community? JU: Well, I would like to see [pause] more people living here and not just renting out their homes because I think you lose the sense of community. KB: Right. JU: Um, some neighborhoods up on the hill are mostly rentals and people are getting concerned about that. Now my area has been rentals for a long time. But, I think they're going to have to some rules and regulations on the rentals. KB: Hm, yeah. JU: It’s not going to be popular with the people that are doing it, but uh, the community could lose its soul. KB: Right. JU: If we have too many people moving in an out all the time. KB: Yeah. [Phone rings] JU: Julie let me you call. KB: And what you do think you have the greatest needs currently are facing, the community, which is kind of a similar question. JU: Well I do know the school needs more children if they’re going to continue in running really excellent educational program. I’m saying this as a teacher too. KB: Right. JU: And that they need families. �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 15 KB: Mhm. JU: And that's a problem because property in Saugatuck and Douglas is expensive. KB: Right. Right. JU: The tourist trade and the second home people. Um, very few children come from Saugatuck and Douglas, most of the children's in the school, I think are coming from the township. KB: Oh yeah. JU: But they need, need more families, with children in the schools. The schools, I mean they’re incredibly um, talented teachers, administrators, they just need more students. KB: Yeah. [Laughs] JU: That’s, the problem is the cost of housing. KB: Yeah, absolutely. JU: I see that definitely just looking at the prices of homes in the newspapers and the ads and things like that. KB: Mhm yeah, big problem. JU: And we have to protect our environment. KB: Mhm. Yeah. JU: That’s, that’s really so important. That we [pause] we don’t want to lose the beauty of the area. I mean that’s what attracts people. KB: Right. JU: The fact that we were able to protect the property from Oval Beach to the piers was amazing, and the late senator Patty Berkholtz was so important in that, in raising money. She died this past spring. We’re mourning her loss because she was so important in that, trying to protect the property. KB: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, remembering that this interview is going to be saved for a long time. JU: Mhm. KBL Uh, when somebody listens to this tape, say in 50 years from now. What would you like them to most know about your life and community right now? JU: My life in the community? Well I think everyone in a community has to give back to their community. In volunteer work, or donating money for good causes, that’s what makes a community vibrant and I hope I can continue to do that. KB: Yeah. That’s great, and also do you have any um, advice for a young person who might listen to this tape? �Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch October 8, 2018 16 JU: Get involved in things. Work for good. Whether its social issues, political issues, whatever, whatever you can do to make it a better world. KB: Mhm, yeah. JU: Because the people that are just for themselves, I feel sorry for them. You’ve got to give back. KB: Absolutely, that’s great. JU: Okay. KB: So that concludes my questions, do you know anything else that you want share that you didn’t get a chance to? JU: Well, let’s see. [Pause] I can’t think of anything, I think I’ve hit all the points I wanted to make. KB: Okay. Sounds great. Well thank you so much for being here and sharing your memories with me. This concludes our interview. [00:34:58] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-UnderwoodJ-20181008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Underwood, Jane Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-08 Title A name given to the resource Jane Underwood (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Jane Underwood's grandparents and father came to Saugatuck during the summertime. They stayed in a hotel in Macatawa before buying property in Saugatuck. In this interview, Jane reflects on her own experiences summering and sailing in the area and then moving to Saugatuck during her retirement. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bosch, Katelyn (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Holland (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Sailing Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/481d784851f7c7925fc930b1d1043364.mp3 34f27dc4f6a627a10586d9cfa2f5e11b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1587e72639c7ac24dd16d0b25be0e6e3.mp3 44e728850d2c14d72058373419d97ec4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a25118bf856728ccbf69790469557b76.pdf 715149acd88b59a632fed9cf24d527ab PDF Text Text Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 Part 1 Eric Gollannek: This is, this is Eric Gollanneck. Meghann Stevens: And Meghann Stevens. EG: And I’m here today with… Dawn Schumann: Dawn Schumann. EG: At the Douglas, uh, Saugatuck Douglas History Center, the old school house in Douglas Michigan on July 21st, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. DS: Oh, I didn’t know that. EG: Thank you for taking the time to talk with us today. Um, we’re interested in learning more about your family history in particular experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Focusing on summer. Uh, can you please say your full name and spell it for us. DS: My full name. EG: Yes. DS: Dawn D A W N, Schwartz S C H W A R T Z, Follet F O L L E T T Goshorn G O S H O R N, Schuman S C H U M A N N. EG: There we go. DS: That enough? EG: For the record, wonderful, thank you. So, kind of jumping right in, tell us a little bit about your earliest experiences, memories coming to Saugatuck Douglas area. DS: Well, I'm not sure I remember it too well. [00:01:26] Part 2 Eric Gollannek: This is, this is Eric Gollanneck. Meghann Stevens: And Meghann Stevens. EG: And I’m here today with… Dawn Schumann: Dawn Schumann. 1 �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 2 EG: Uh, at the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas Michigan on July 21st, 2018. Uh, continuing our oral history from part one, um previously. Um, so you were speaking a little bit about uh, the, the Bible Camp, family camp… DS: Oh. EG: …and… DS: Yeah, uh, Frank Bible, I would, came to the camp with Frank and Muriel Bible and because her daughter, their daughter was my best friend. We were, oh it was probably 1945? 46? And uh, they had great history with the camp. Uh, Louise's grandfather had been head of the far east Presbyterian, and um, had Frank had been born in China. When they had to leave the country because of all of the warring factions, etcetera. They came directly to the church camp. Where Frank Bible’s father basically ran the show and worked with Jane Adams worked with all the others just start setting up the format of the camp. So, he, Frank was a young boy and he was the lifeguard and at the nearby Oxbow, was this very lovely Muriel whose father was a famous artist. And they met around the camp fire and this was very much the way of life in the church camp because the camp fires were really big part of our lives. In the process of being allowed the freedom to run in the woods and to run the whole area. We made our way, at one particular time over as far as the Kalamazoo River, the new entrance to the Kalamazoo. EG: [Laughs] Right. DS: It was put in, begun in 1904, but at that point it was still called the new entrance. MS: [Laughs] EG: Right. DS: The new channel, and we were messing around and playing in um, uh, the area right opposite Singapore. We ran into one time, we ran into um, blue flow shards, a blue flow China. And another time, Indian arrowheads, when we were working in another part, or, not working but playing in another part. We took the back to the church camp because we wanted to, this was exciting stuff. MS: Yeah. EG: Mhm. DS: And um, they were, there were people there that had been in that camp since the teens. Okay? And they had, they were thrilled to see this, they never seen this, this kind of a [inaudible]. So they put it in a little museum that we had, along with, with a lot of other history. The museum is now been destroyed, to make a way for [sighs] MS: Yeah. DS: Housing development, and so life goes on. But, Louise and I in the early 50s went on to wait tables, for three dollars a month. [all laugh] �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 3 DS: And all you could eat, and they did houses. In the dormitory that we were housed in was up at the top of a dune that was almost as high as um, Mount Baldy. EG: Mhm. DS: So you can you can picture running up, and down. MS: Oh gosh. [Laughs] DS: Well… EG: You’d be in good shape. MS: Yeah. DS: Be in very good shape. [All laugh] DS: Well the pavilion was still going strong, and that time and we got taken by the couple of the boys from camp to go over to the pavilion dancing, and I have to tell you that was thrill. EG: I’ll bet. DS: I mean they no longer have the big orchestras and it was probably not as, as elegant as it has been when my grandparents were there. EG: Mhm. DS: In 1911 and 12 and 13, they’d just take the steamer over. EG: Right. DS: Anyway, so that was great fun to be able to actually dance there and see what it was like, and of course cry when it burned down… EG and MS: Yeah. DS: …Just a few years later. One time Louise and I were [coughs] interested in getting a pineapple soda. [All laugh] DS: …So we made our way to the ferry, now the ferry was not the ferry that you know today. EG: The chain ferry? DS: The chain ferry. EG: Right. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 4 DS: Well but it wasn’t the chain ferry then. EG: Okay. DS: It was a two sided rowboat. EG: Okay. MS: Oh. DS: The chain was down there. EG: Right. DS: But, the, the big huge um, oh gosh what do you call it? Took the people across it was a large flat boat. EG: Like a barge. [00:05:01] MS: Yeah. DS: A barge, that’s the word. A large, flat barge that could take um, horses and carriages and famers wagons and what have you across that was no longer there. It was just two sided rowboat, and let me tell you the problem was that the guy, the ferry man, Tim the ferry man was a tippler… MS: Oh. EG: Okay. DS: …and so we explained to him that we had to be back at camp in 45 minutes. So we had half an hour to go, get our soda’s and then we come back right away, and please be ready to take us back so we were weren’t late. EG: Mhm. DS: We got back, no Tim in sight. We went, we ran as fast as we could do it every bar town and there were a few. EG: Right. DS: And he wasn’t anywhere we could find, he wasn’t in back at the boat, so we had to swim. The river. EG: Wow! DS: And this was in August and it had been a very rainy July, like it is today. So there was a current. EG: Yeah. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 5 DS: Well we were both very strong swimmers, we had been swimming in Lake Michigan… EG: Mhm. DS: …since we were children and in High School we were both on the swim team and doing, uh, water ballet. So we were pretty strong swimmers. Well, we got aw, out, we made it across with a lot of, I mean it was really tough. But we got across up somewhere around the um, where the museum is now. MS and EG: Mhm. DS: The pump house. EG: Yeah. MS: Yeah. DS: And when we got out, we were covered in, tan sticky, gunk. MS and EG: Oh! DS: I mean in our hair, and every part of oh our, oh, it was awful and it smelled. I mean it smelled really bad. Well, we went running back to camp because we were really late. MS: Yeah. DS: And there's something, you know Perryman goes along to the Oval, well running parallel is something called the um, the ministers walk and so we didn't want to be seen because we were such a mess. And so we ran through the, the path that was through the woods that was the ministers walk. We got to camp, ran up the top of the dune, did our bathing and um, tried hard to get to get off this, sticky, oily, gunky, smelly stuff. EG: Yeah. DS: We did the best we could, we get down there to serve lunch and Papa T took one look at us and smelled us, and said what have you been doing? And we just said, oh, well we had to run to town and we just got back. Okay but you really smell bad. Well I'm sorry we did the best we could. We didn't tell him that we had [laughs] because that was forbidden. EG: Sure. MS: Oh. DS: Because people have thrown doing that. EG: Sure. MS: Oh. DS: So, oh yeah. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 6 MS: Couldn’t even tell him. DS: So there we were. Anyway, it was a beautiful camp and seeing that I'm amazed me was is that, when you sat in person, certain places in that camp, it was if there was, and I’ll use a term that I learned in Sedona, you felt like there was something in the air, the atmosphere the feel, that uplifted you and you were just [deep breath] And the second part of the camp was a circular area that had been in encampment for the Indians for generations. I mean, probably a thousand years? MS and EG: Mhm. DS: And um, it's about five to six acres, circle, almost a perfect circle. MS: Mhm. DS: No trees growing in there. The grass stays short. It's the most amazing place you've ever seen. So the camp had path that wound through it. Certainly through this meadow. Some, what we called the meadow, and along the paths there would be a written stakes, things from Theroux, and [clears throat] MS and EG: Mhm. DS: Just different writers, of that period that were just thought provoking and you could sit down on benches along the path or you could just keep running. The path ran from Shorewood all the way to the ferry. Most people don't know that, but sitting talking to some of the older folk, and there actually was an agreement between the city and the camp that path would be open to the public. [00:10:11] MS: Oh. DS: As long as the uh, the camp gave the, the road, the camp owned the land that the road was on. \ MS: Yeah. DS: And I saw this when Jim Schimiechen and I were doing the historic survey at the Burnham Library. There was the agreement, and when we were, we were uh, trying to forestall the the purchase of the church camp… EG: Mhm. DS: For a mega million dollar development, um, I went back to get it, to get a copy of this. EG: Mhm. DS: Because that would be germane. MS: Mhm. DS: It was gone. It had been taken from the library. MS and EG: Oh. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 7 DS: So we couldn't prove it. MS: Yeah. DS: Which is really a shame, but anyway that's, that’s the story. EG: Wow. DS: And um, I’ve gone back to the church camp until of course it was closed and I gave a, a lecture to a whole host of people. This, a Historical Society event and I just stood there where they had a cross and a bunch of benches looking out at the lake and I just stood there and I looked at people and I said what do you feel? Stop and think a minute and feel it, and they could. When, once you stop and you think about it. What you are feeling? You’re feeling really great. It’s good to be there, it’s a happy place. And that’s what the dunes are, just exactly that. So when we couldn’t find a house and the interesting thing, I was very involved with the Frank Lloyd Wright studio in Oak Park Illinois, and in 1975 we decided we wanted to rent something on the Lakeshore, if we could, and we had a sailboat. It was an Islander 29 and it got us all around the lake and we had a wonderful time with the kids. But we all wanted to put our buckets in the sand. [EG laughs] DS: We missed being in Saugatuck. There was something wrong we weren’t in Saugatuck. EG: Yeah. MS: Yeah. EG: Sure. DS: And uh, so… MS: [Whispering] Oh, sorry, sorry DS: So um, [whispering] where was I? Oh. Oh. EG: Coming back to Saugatuck. MS: Yeah. DS: So, I called a friend of ours from Oak Park that I had gone to High School who was realtor up here and I said is there anything that’s available to rent on the lakeshore? She said, oh my god Dawn, get your husband out of work, the kids out of uh, school and get up here right now. I just signed a contract to rent a cottage that has your name over all it and I said why, and she said it was designed by a student and Frank Lloyd Wright’s. EG: Okay. DS: So my husband left work the kids pulled out of school MS: [Laughing] �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 DS: I mean, that was it. EG: What, what time of year was this? DS: This was in, um early June. EG: Okay. DS: I mean they were just finishing. MS and EG: Mhm. DS: So it was possible to do that. EG: Right. MS: Yeah. DS: We came up, we walked in the front door, we got to uh, there's a, trip, typical of the style… EG: Mhm. DS: ….you go through a long narrow, uh, entryway… MS: Yeah. DS: …compressed and then, boom, out into space and we got into the kitchen which was the beginning of that open space. EG: Yeah. DS: We didn't go any further, just turned to her and said, we’ll take it. [All laugh] DS: So we took it for the month of August and, and it turned out that the woman that had, the people immediately next door had built it. Because they wanted to be there year round, and they discovered winners are a little harsh. EG: Mhm. MS: Yeah. DS: And so he loved to gamble and went to Las Vegas instead. [MS and EG laugh] DS: They kept the cottage, but they… MS: Yeah. 8 �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 9 DS: Winters were, are, you know, winters were in Las Vegas. EG: Wow. DS: So, um, we sold the boat and we took a second mortgage from the people next door, who loved us because my dog would go over and keep him company while he watched, [pause] the market. MS: Yeah. EG: Right. [MS and EG laugh] DS: But anyway so we've got the cottage and have been here since 1975. EG: Wow. DS: And watched a lot of things go on. Big, big part of the Historical Society and uh, I was the first Cochair of the Heritage Preservation Committee and we did the historic survey of Saugatuck and Douglas and Jim Schimiechen worked with us. [00:15:18] EG: Mhm. DS: And uh, did his wonderful book. MS: Yeah. DS: And so, I don't know what else do you want me to tell you? EG: Well that, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a tantalizing account. MS: Yeah. DS: Good! [MS laughs] EG: Of summer on the lakeshore. Um, any observations you’ve had having been here, it’s been really your whole life here, summers over your whole life time. DS: Right. EG: The last forty years or so. Um, changes that you’ve seen in the community? Uh? DS: You know, it's been a period of accessing historic of properties that have been change time over and that change over time has not been negative. When I look at, out the window at the, at the um, what was originally Methodist Church, now a library. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 10 EG: Right. DS: Change over time. EG: Mhm. DS: A different usage. Um, when we first started coming you could a bowling ball down Center Street which is our main street. MS: Mhm. DS: And a couple of gentleman, took, purchased one of the uh, uh buildings and he restored it and all of a sudden people begin looking at Douglas. EG: Mhm. DS: Today, you walk up and down the street and yes there is some intrusive properties into what it would have been a very perfect, typical, um, 18, civil war era town. EG: Yeah. DS: But, on the whole, it's retained his character, and, so much so that you've got people who are moving historic houses in to be around the park. Uh, the old Gerber mansion, Gerber baby food was really begun here with, the Gerber’s a little boy that had digestive problems, a baby this and so she took some peaches from their Orchard, and another things and ground them up. MS: Oh, wow. DS: And thus began Gerber baby food. [EG laughs] DS: But, um, yeah. It’s, there’ve been still changes. Um, but we at the same time there've been changes, people are now turning around and taking a look at our history. And, and wanting to be a part of it. MS: Yeah. DS: Uh, that’s a wonderful, wonderful legacy. MS: Yeah, that really is. DS: Yeah, for example, we just had, we had a 1837 coach stop that had fallen into monumental disrepair and the City of Saugatuck was trying to help keep it up by painting of the outside, keeping the grounds moderately [laughs] mowed down. MS: Yeah. DS: And, um in comes the gentleman from Chicago who is a preservationist is from top to bottom. He has put millions into restoring it, and it’s now open, it’s a bed and breakfast. And that place is as, as really beautiful. Change over time. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 11 EG: Mhm. DS: But he has kept the entire feel of the interior to what would have been there in the 1850’s. So that's good change over time. EG: Right. Absolutely, yeah. Um, part of our, um, part part of the mission with this project, the Stories of Summer projects is also about uh, the gay community in Saugatuck and Douglas, and kind of looking the history of that, that population. Those residence in, have shaping Saugatuck and Douglas into what they are, if you have any? Reflections on that? DS: I rented, I rented the cottage to the first gay couple to uh, come to the lakeshore. And, they are wonderful people, we're still friends today. Douglas would not be Douglas without the gay community. Absolutely no question. Yes. The rest of us have done our part here and there [All laugh] But nothing, nothing like the gay community. It, it’s interesting because when we in talking to the library who's trying to build a new building. EG: Mhm, yeah. DS: I was in there, my husband and I were in there with several gentleman who were gay and the one point we made was the, what they had designed was the building that really didn't fit in with the historic architecture of the community, and they had invested, heavily in making sure that this town. Although we do not have any ordinance, we couldn’t get that through because we had some realtors who really muddied the water for us when we tried to get it… [00:20:25] EG: Into the preservation ordinance? MS: Yeah, okay. EG: Right, yeah. DS: Preservation ordinance, uh but, it's, it’s been restored in spite of that and I have to say. It is 90% thanks to the gay community. I sat at lunch today and there we were in a restaurant and there were as many gay folks is there were families. Nobody thought a thing of it. EG: Any, any experiences that you’d share good or good or more challenging stories about how thats changed over time? About uh, how, how welcoming, I mean your sense of how welcoming Douglas and, and uh Saugatuck have been to? DS: Certainly better than they were to the Jews. There was sign. EG: I’ve seen the photo of that, yeah. MS: Yeah DS: There was a sign, Jews not welcome. That never happened for the gay community. The way they came in and they became a responsible part of the community such as the two lads restoring um, that first building. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 12 EG: Yeah. DS: Uh, began an awareness among the rest of us that had lived here. That, hey there were some really nice people… [MS and EG laugh] DS: …who happen to love the same things we love, and they were here because they did, and hey welcome. EG: Yeah. DS: And, and that's my perspective, now others may have a different perspective. MS: Mhm. DS: But clearly, I'm not, I’m not, uh part of a group that would be anti- because I rented my home. EG: Right. MS: Yeah. EG: For sure. DS: To, to gays. MS: Yeah. DS: And I'll tell you, what Carl and Larry did to the gardens, and to the inside the house it’s never looked so good. [MS and EG laugh] DS: So. EG: That’s wonderful, yeah that’s a, that’s a great story. I'm just curious if you have any insights, uh, thinking about this the kind of magic of this place. What do you think it was sort of attracted visitors and particularly, kind of gay visitors and people to settle here. Do you have a sense historically? DS: Well, I think it’s, it was probably that they were treated as people, not gay people. Just treated as people. EG: An inclusive atmosphere. DS: It, I think, to, in my experience it's always been inclusive, there may be incidents that other people had differently but frankly um, I don't think anybody ever worried about it, and so you had a beautiful community, beautiful climate, historic fabric that I think the gays that came particularly respected and um it just was, it just worked. I would say we're probably at this point equal number of gays and straights. My grandson is gay, and it came to me and he said Grandma I have to talk to you and I said �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 13 okay and he said, took my hands, and I said so, what do you want to tell me, he said, Grandma, I’m gay, and I looked at him and I said, Seth I'm straight. [MS and EG laugh] DS: And that kind of the way a community is. MS: Mhm. DS: You are what you are. I am what I am, so what? Your, I like you. You’re a person. Uh, I think certainly the particular people such as Ken Carlson, Jim Schimiechen who were so interested and welcoming and part and really helping to make it a vibrant community, made a big difference. That’s part of what I like talk about coming in and helping us being responsible for the maintaining of this community. Because it's never look better in my life. EG: Well, that’s a great… MS: Yeah. EG: Great, optimistic uh, message there. DS: Good. EG: In your reflection. MS: Yeah. EG: I appreciate that. I want to be respectful of your time. DS: Thank you. EG: Because were probably getting, getting to our point to wrap up. MS: Yep. EG: Uh, thinking, think, taking the long view looking ahead. You can think about, you know, fifty years from now. Right there maybe someone listening to this recording uh, is there any message you would like to share, kind of looking ahead to that that future audience? Listening to this, what you’d like them to know about… [00:25:08] DS: Well they’ll probably… EG: The community now? DS: They’ll probably be some of my family, because I was a Goshorn, Goshorn Lake, Goshorn creek? My daughter is Laurie Goshorn and my Pete, son is Peter Goshorn and they will live here, uh in retirement because they own property. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 14 EG: Yeah. DS: And uh, I wouldn't want them to remember how hard day they helped work to help make this community what it is because my kids always pitched in and um, I would hope that um, in the future people who would continue to respect the value system and the culture of this town because the culture is what makes it. The biggest problem we have right now is that so many people rent their homes that it’s hard to maintain continuity of people that have that we have had in the past. Because you got people here that have come for the summers their whole lives, and spend the whole summer. EG: Right. MS: Yeah. DS: Because they’ve been teachers or whatever and that's changed. I, I, that's my biggest fear is that that will change things um, but I, what we have is unique. We really have a unique environment both in terms of historic architecture and things of that sort. The climate of openness and welcome. I would hope if it goes beyond the diversity of sexuality and that there are other people would, you know other, other uh, ethnic groups would be welcome. I do see more of that um, but I feel, I, you know I've worked hard for open occupancy in Oak Park. EG: Mhm. MS: Yeah. DS: So, what am I, you know? EG: Yeah. DS: I see a need for many different racial groups to be here as well. Um, we have a value system, we have a culture, we have landscape, we have a history, we’ve got it all. [MS and EG laugh] DS: And a good education system, our schools are very good. MS: Yeah. DS: If I were starving over and raising my kids, I would love to raise them in this town where they can hop on their bikes and be wherever they want be and there's a defined area that’s your… EG: Right. DS: Of the town and um… EG: Yep. DS: You've got everything you need within it. EG: Very good, alright. �Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens July 21, 2018 15 DS: Enough? EG: Anything you want, questions that you have? MS: Um, nope not at the moment. EG: yeah, I feel like you had like a self-guided, kind of, it took you through your story. MS: Yeah. [Laughing]. EG: Didn’t have to do too much here. With that we'll wrap things up. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your stories here today and this concludes our interview. [00:28:18] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-SchumannD-20180721 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schumann, Dawn Schwartz Follett Goshorn Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Dawn Schumann (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource In this interview, Dawn Schumann reflects on the changes in Saugatuck-Douglas from when her parents and grandparents arrived to the area through her time working with the Historical Society. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Stevens, Meghann (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Religious camps Ferries Gay men Sexual minorities Historic preservation Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d335cc04618c7ac77cf60f1cbdfa367c.mp3 0c507999143a4dd27bfa326b6d543fcb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d9d8cce150bd488b18e995aa1642185.mp3 bcef0c15f211197f4396425aa09ef92a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4cb62dcf1fa9e38f50a61c2a2dcc91d.pdf 7de74b90b38973504b5b8fd7c6d38c8f PDF Text Text Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 1 Part 1 Unknown voice: Now look at it, does it say R E C? That’s important you’ve got to look at that screen, don’t, don’t rely on the buttons! Ted Reyda: Okay, we have uh, Mark here and he’s going to tell his adventures and youth of being in the area. Mark Randall: [Inaudible] Um, I was born on uh, November 21st 1950 so, the uh, my memories might be somewhat hazy until I get to be about 10 years old or so. But uh, but I came up here every year, for two weeks. My grandparents, um, owned a placed on 64th street, they purchased it when my mom came up here when she was 17, which would have been about 1942 to go to Oxbow and they came up here to keep an eye on her and they bought that place on 64th street so obviously when she got married along with her sisters who all got married and had lots of kids, we would all get um, um. My grandparents had 3, 3 daughters and each family got two weeks up here over the summer. Um [pause] my main, my first recollections were going to Lake Goshorn which was near 64th street my uh, grandfather knew Gus Raiser who the uh, the gas station and auto place there and he also owned the property behind it and so he gave us permission to go there and swim, and that’s where I learned to swim. Um, uh suddenly my dad tried throwing me out the boat uh, but that didn’t work because I went right to the bottom and they had to rescue me and then gradually with my uh, grandfather and my mother taking more time. Um, I also remember going with my grandpa to get his cigar uh, and newspaper at Funk’s which was uh, in downtown. Uh, and I remember on rainy days we would go to the laundromat which is where um, really Wick’s park is right now, I believe. Um, and uh there was a miniature golf course there, on nicer days we would get to play. Maybe we put this on pause and look at the questions? Unknown voice: Well I think that’s great. [00:02:20] Part 2 Mark Randall: So now we have the questions, um the only thing of the first four that I didn't say is where I lived the rest of the time and uh, are we, we grew up in Chicago, in the southwest suburbs, Orland Park. And [pause] it asks what our favorite place to eat was, well, one of the things we did as kids is my mom would take us, my grandparents had this old car, it was in 1936 Buick, it was called Unbelievable, and um, there were no seats in the back, it was a coop so we would all stand back there and my parents, my mom would drive. And so we would make it uh, to Oval Beach and we would run along the beach while my mom looked at the sunset. The idea is we would all, which is something we do to this day, uh, and [pause] we would pass the Rootbeer Barrel and, but when we were out there on the beach, my mom said we would not go there unless we stayed dry because she didn't want to wash all our clothes. So we would go walking along, and then pretty soon we'd be running and pretty soon one of us would get a little wet and pretty soon you push each other all in and we'd all be soaked. But my mom wanted the ice cream or the root beer or something so we would all got to go anyway. So that was a favorite place because uh, the root beer tasted good after being, uh after being there and plus we could stay out a little later. So, uh, um, did we ever go over to Douglas? Uh, yes we did um, as I grew up more, um, they tried to teach ten, when we would play tennis and the courts in Saugatuck were our first choice because, uh, they were closer, um, but if it didn't work, there was uh, a tennis court right �Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 2 where Berry fields is now and we would go there. It was a little bit more of a substandard court, but I remember going there. Um, and uh, were there other places that were important to us or did you have a summer job locally? Um, as I got older, of course I did the typical things. You, uh, you grew up and uh, went through high school, got a job and went to college. So, when I got um, when I got to high school, we would still be able to come up here for two weeks. But it was, it was more of a problem for me. So I would generally come up for a period of time if I could with my folks and it didn't have to work and try and arrange it because it was always something that was still special. Um, I had a very unusual experience in, while we were down in Timmeny Park working in a restaurant and met, uh, uh, a lifelong friend who was a seminarian at the time at Saint Augustine's seminary. Um, and so we've hatched a plan that I would, when I came up here with my parents and he was at school or he was at the seminary that I would sneak out. And so we did this and I got on a bicycle and rode from 64th street over to the seminary and it was late, you know, midnight, one in the morning, something like that. And, uh, and uh, I remember passing the seminary. Uh, it was a vivid marriage because I was scared and, uh, I was doing something I wasn't supposed to be doing, and uh, but we, I got there and somehow found our way to the seminarians who are out at the lake, uh, skinny dipping in the boathouse, which was still there at the time, it had a second floor and, uh, people were hanging out there, listening to music and drinking beer. And, uh, and, and I think that was one of my first entries into the LGBT community because uh, I started to realize that I, I got awfully excited about that. I wouldn't take my clothes off for fear of, well, you know [Laughs]. And so, uh, and so um, so Saugatuck was a special place. Um, I, I said this once in a speech that I gave here. I had a, I loved old buildings and there were three really prominent ones in my memory. Um, one was Tera, which we rarely went to, but I think my grandfather took me there once after I had actually done some hard work for him. Um, uh, another was the Mount Baldhead Hotel. Which you could see if you went on the ferry or if you, uh, if you played miniature golf there and things. And the third was a beautiful set of pillars, uh, in front of a, I presume was a Greek Revival House that was perched on the, uh, along the river. So if you took the, what was then the Island Queen, a precursor to the Star of Saugatuck, uh, you would see it, as you, as you gently glided down the river, and those made an impression on me and uh, and it also made an impression on me that there are no longer here, um and I think that got us, got me started, I think in some ways on the appreciation of old buildings and the desire to restore them, which we've carried out today. [00:5:09] Ted Reyda: And you, what what are those buildings you've restored in the area? MR: Um, well there are two. Um, this obviously is not the 60s, 50s or 60s. Uh, but, uh, uh, much later in the last, uh, 10 years or so, we, uh, um, Chris, my spouse is a teacher and so we get our summers off. And so we hit on the idea of starting to come here and that grew into uh, hosting our whole family here for the Oxbow um, the same weekend as the Oxbow benefit because my mom was on the board there for a long time. And, uh, and so we held the, uh, we would come for that weekend, stay at the Timberline hotel, know, but then we decided to buy a place. We bought our first place, uh, about 12, 13 years ago. Um, and uh, and that was a relatively newly restored condominium. But then we took on a project, uh, Dan Shanahan's urging when we, we bought a lot on Washington Street and, and uh, moved the old, what was the remnants of the old Douglas Hotel, uh, citizen in 1934 it burned and it was cobbled down into a, uh, into a little bungalow with what was left. And uh, that was on the corner of Center and Washington and they, uh, the owner of that was going to demolish it. And so we bought the nearest property right next door, and, and, and he gave us that house for a dollar and we moved it there. Um, and then uh, several years later there was another house, uh, the Gerber house, which was at Union and South, I believe. And uh, that was also going to be demolished by owner who wanted to �Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 3 build something else there. And we purchased that for a dollar, and, and, since that acquired a lot of the corner where the old house used to be and moved it there. TR: Do you uh, have any memories of your mother at Oxbow? As a child going there and observing it? MR: I don't have any per se, but my mom tells me stories. She said one time she was there doing a figure study uh, a class, and there was a uh, uh, a woman who was naked, you know, being, uh, being painted and that, uh, and that I, when I noticed that I was, my mom would take me and put me out by the water and tell me to behave, you know, play there and behave myself and, uh, but I somehow saw that, and uh, she I think took a break and went running down and jumped into the water. And, uh, and so I was horrified by that and went running up and told my mom that there was a bare naked lady down there. [TR laughs] MR: I can't say I remember that, but, uh, um, I, uh, we other memories were of course going to Oval and uh, walking down towards the channel as I, uh, as I grew older and realized I was gay of course, that he had a different connotation because we knew there were uh, gay people down there cause they would be like sentinels up on the, up on the slope for, you know, and uh, but uh, but even then we remember going down there, you know, during the sunset and [inaudible] TR: But you never wandered up into the dunes? MR: Uh, no, I mean, not that, not that I can remember. TR: Okay. MR: It took me till I was 34 results to really, uh, except all those, even though, uh, back then the, the, the, the seminary experience was about 17. So a, so I was a pretty slow mover. I wasn't heading up to any dunes. TR: So the area had enough interest where you had to come back? MR: Yes. In fact, one summer I was, uh, in my senior year, so this be outside, again, this is about 72. Um, I or summer of yeah, 72 or 71 maybe. I was, uh, we, I had made enough money in summers before where I didn't need to work much that week, that, that summer and um, we decided it would be really fun, some friends of ours and I, to come up here to Saugatuck and stay for a summer. So I managed to get a job at the Ilfarmo restaurant washing dishes and we stayed at a little place. It's a little place it’s much nicer now it's going to redone. Um, but it, it was a little cottage uh, which was just basically two rooms right next to the funeral home and, and perched up a little bit, so you actually walk out with a set of stairs, which is still there. It's still there, but it was much rougher then, didn't have the nice porch that it has now and actually the dune kept encroaching, so, uh, the toilet, by the time we left, there was a, a little toilet was the closest thing to the dune and there was this sort of slope of sand behind it that was kind of close to your uh, feet, um. But uh, so we stayed in that and we had rented that for the summer and, uh, we would go out on the dunes and, uh, and for sunset, we've never had any money. Uh, and so we would go out there and watch the sunsets just as much as I did when I was a kid, except that we would have a bottle of Boone's farm and maybe some other entertainments that, uh, and we would walk there frequently and uh, stay till it got dark. �Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 4 [00:10:34] TR: No, no knowledge of uh, Toads, the gay, the only supposedly gay bar. MR: Um, we, the only knowledge I have of a gay bar was during that same time when I was renting and I worked at the Ilforma, you could work in late. And I walked by the Blue Tempo, and I would occasionally… TR: That is the same place. MR: Ah, okay. And, uh, I would occasionally get whistled at or you know, uh, get a comment. TR: But you never went in? MR: No, I, uh, I, I wasn't accepting of, uh, of, uh, of that. Yeah. So, uh, so it looked at it mostly flustered me because I didn't really know how to react. TR: But, yeah, it's wonderful that you've had these positive feelings to come back and then you bring your family and back and you certainly have a long tradition. I don't know if you want to describe any of the house that your grandfather had, the family inn? MR: Well, they were from Germany. Um, so, um, they, they spoke English but with a, with a heavily German accent, and so there were memories or Germany in every place they had. So the, uh, the original house there was uh, a cottage. It was a, it had knotty pine, which I remember vividly, a beautiful warm view. And they had a, uh, you know, a German cuckoo clock that would come out, and, but the, uh, and, and there, that was the part of the house we could go to, but my grandparents kept part of the house on the other side of the kitchen that was off limits to us because I think they wanted to keep it quiet, and, uh, and you have some separation because my mom had five kids, my Aunt Deb had eight, my Aunt Mony had five, so they had six weeks of this, uh, you know, lots of kids and I think they had to have some area of, uh, it was 15 acres, so, uh, or it was until they started building on 196 and then they lost their… TR: Okay, were there summer gardens or anything? MR: Yes, they had a beautiful garden, they had a uh, uh, uh a rectangle, a long rectangle of flowers that were between the two houses. We got kind of the refurbished garage to stay in, all the, all the uh, the daughters families and uh, and, and that was between them and there was a lot of lawn and there were a lot of apple trees. Um, there were, there were all around, the circular drive is still there. TR: Did they spray it to get the fruit or just? MR: [Inaudible] I don't remember. TR: You don't remember? MR: [Speaking over TR] You know, we would come, we would come generally in, uh, late June or early July, so picking through, um, uh, wasn't ever a part of what we did, uh… �Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 5 TR: And they probably didn't have any pits around here, in Fennville? MR: They may have, they may have, uh, um, for whatever reason, it wasn't something that would… TR: How long was the journey from Chicago? MR: Well, back then it was, uh, probably a good four hours or so. The uh, um, I remember that we would all pile, you know five kids and you know, into my, either my dad’s car or [inaudible] car [inaudible] grandfather too. And uh, and I remember one of us would lay on the uh, the back deck of the window, you know, obviously there were no seatbelts then, but you know, we'd always have to go to the bathroom and so there'll be lots of stops and we would stop at um, was a Bill Naps, I think it was a or the Big Boy, and uh eat something on the way. If we're in, and if we were good, we would get ice cream, uh, and we would get another real good or not. But it was a, it was a incentive. TR: I don't know if you want to get into, did any of your family take memories and objects from this place? MR: [Laughs] Uh, we all have memories, you know, whenever we have a sort of family of union Saugatuck comes up and now that we, Chris and I have a place here, uh, we've gotten visits from a lot of the family that we're still in touch with. TR: And so their, their experiences are very positive then? MR: Oh, yes, yes. It was a, an extraordinarily warm experience, uh, in the place. You know, you forget what we had a, we had a family with a bunch of little kids come visit, uh, a few years ago, and we were thinking, well, what are they going to do? Well between the dunes schooner rides and like the fishing or whatever, there’s just so much for kids to do here. And, uh, and uh, you know, I, I can't, I can't think of a child that has had a negative view of, of, uh, of being here. [00:15:18] TR: In what ways to have the area changed? MR: Well, after, uh, you know, moving to California and lots of stuff, it's amazing to me how little it has changed. But I think I, uh, I would, I would say, you know, certainly it's sad to see uh, there, as I said the, some of the architectural things, you know, leave, the pavilion of course. Oh, I remember seeing movies there my grandparents took me to movies there. TR: That down below? MR: Yeah, uh, and it was, um, and it was getting kind of tacky, you know, and I don't know that, I don't have a memory of the ballroom, um, so we probably never were up there for anything. Um, but still, you know, it was a remarkable building and to see it go, uh, with, uh, uh, which it did when I must've been, I think about 13 or so when uh, when it burned down. TR: Did you ever uh do, take sailing lessons? �Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 6 MR: I did, I did. Um, my parents, you know, were, uh, had no end of things to try and uh, try and keep us occupied. And one of them was taking swimming lessons, uh which we took, I think, uh, I forget where. Um, what pool or something? TR: There was a, north of town, a huge pool. MR: Yeah. TR: But they closed that because the polio. MR: Right, so I think that may have already closed, uh... TR: It was at North Street and, and Holland. Yeah. MR: Yeah. I know, I've heard of it, but I, I don't, I don't have a memory. TR: Okay. MR: But I do remember swimming lessons, but the, the one thing that I did remarkably poorly at, and our son did too, was uh, sailing at the yacht club. Uh, I you would start on these prants, which were a flat fronted sailboat, and uh, and it, once you've mastered that, which never did, then you move up to the lightning’s, uh, which were a bigger, a bigger, smoother boat, uh, but it was fine then it was memorable, and uh, and uh, even if I do remember getting whacked on the head with it, boom, more, uh, more than once. TR: Which for example, are there any negatives of your experiences here, that you can think of? MR: Um, not any that were, uh, you know, uh, to the place. Um, there was some family dynamics that sometimes didn't [inaudible] well. Um, but, uh, I, and I remember I have had a lifelong, dread of mosquito I suppose, but you know, I don’t know where in the park where they have get any less, so I imagine that was just part of growing up. Uh… TR: [Inaudible] MR: Um, not so much, I don’t remember uh, getting that. Um, so it was a pretty much all positive memory. It was just wonderful to get away, uh, and come here and it was a beautiful place. And my parents above all knew how to appreciate beauty and they knew how to instill that, both the beauty itself and the appreciation of it in me. And uh, this is a beautiful place. TR: And at some point hopefully we’ll have your mother doing an oral uh, session. MR: And you need to get her fast. She's 93 and she's taking care of my dad a lot, but the uh… TR: But the, the art work she's done and going to Oxbow, very, very rich experiences. MR: Yep. It's your, uh, and I think that if there is a negative, that will be when my mom passes away with, because so much of, uh, so much of the memory here involves her, uh, so. [Pause] �Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 7 TR: Okay. MR: Two experiences that seem like they might have answer, uh, some of the questions here. Uh, it asks, did you spend time on the water? And yes, we certainly did. Um, we used to come up here a lot, even not just that summer bit, uh, that, um, I came after college during college we, we, would come up, but we had no place to stay and we didn't have the money so we would, uh, we would, uh, you know, go watch the sunset or otherwise entertain ourselves until uh, a, a, and we'd hang out in front of the, uh, the old, uh, coral gables, because you hear the music there were along the, uh, along the water and uh, and then when it got late enough, we would um, park our cars along uh, uh, Lakeshore there where all fancy houses are, and find one of the pathways and we would sneak by, sometimes the windows were open until we got out to the beach and we would sleep on the beach until, uh, until the morning. Um, and the only other water experience is a one time. We decided we were going to, uh, make it to the other side of the channel, and so we kind of, uh, um… [00:20:12] TR: We being your family. MR: No, no, nobody, nobody else in my family is that stupid, uh, but it was just one of my friends and I had a, or two of us, two, so three of us total. And we, uh, we decided we were going to swim across the channel and uh, and, and we did, it was kind of icky, the water and it was hard getting up the other side once we got there, which probably should have occurred to us before we left. But, uh, and uh, and we didn't bring enough food and stuff. We would kind of have, have to hold it above our heads, you know, to get, to get across. So I think that was it. TR: Okay. [Pause] MR: [Inaudible] Although my mom um, had five kids to raise. She still would bring us over to Oxbow and she would still sometimes take classes or paint over there. And so we, Oxbow is it been a part of my life as long as Saugatuck has. Um, you know, my mom ended up on the board there and so I would uh, go up with her or sometimes for meetings or things like that. And we, we stayed in the Inn, in one of the other cottages, uh, which was, uh, rustic even by a college students standards, uh back, back then. Um, when we were very young, um, we, as I said, we used to go play tennis and one of the rewards for tennis was, uh, we would, we would go to Recsals and, uh, I, uh, I was partial to root beer floats, then chocolate shakes, uh, and then chocolate sodas. But uh, but that it's amazing how little that, you had asked what changes, how little that has changed. That it’s still there, seems like the same experience, it always will. TRL But you also did the root beer floats at the Root Beer Stand. MR: I'm trying to remember when the Root Beer Barrel had floats, they had mugs, you know, big mugs and you can get foot long hot dogs. TR: Frozen, frozen mugs. Like this. MR: But we, we did have a hot dogs cause we had just eaten dinner, this was a sunset thing. But the, uh, but we did have the, the big mugs, and um, I don't remember where there floats or not. �Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda May 20, 2018 8 TR: Where would you, you cooked at, your family cooked at home a lot. Uh, where did you buy your groceries? MR: Um, well that’s another story, they, uh, where or 64th street is like nothing. Like it is now, iIt was a, it was barely paved. It was a, had a big crown at, so you'd be constantly afraid that old car was going to go off the road. Um, so, um, but, but you could ride your bike out to a place, I think it's called Hanes or something like that, which is a, the building is still there right now, it’s say pet health center or something. Uh, it's right next to where the Burger King is now. TR: The cat, cat house. MR: And uh, well that was a, that was like, uh, a, a, a, early precursor of like a 7-11 where you could buy uh, basic things. And the trick for me was invariably that my mom would want eggs and I would, I would try and get them home without breaking too many… TR: On your bicycle. MR: And I had uh, limited, uh, marginal success, at that, uh but I remember so, so we would get sent up there. Uh, as far as shopping it itself, was is there a grocery store like Demond’s? I know on rainy days in addition to doing laundry and we'd go into Holland to buy things. Um, but, uh, but I don't remember. TR: Was, was your family religious? Did you attend any churches? MR: Um, we, I don't remember what was there before the St Peter's, now we're Catholic family and uh, but I do remember a big church being brand new, um, and… TR: Where your condo was, was where the church was. MR: Uh, well it could have been, well it was obviously, but I don't remember it. I do remember Saint Peter's and how impressive it was because it was new and that there was a, uh, there was a building uh, having, there's a room that was for um, all the noisy kids and, uh, but my, my mom had considered me graduated enough where I had to go in the main part and behave and I couldn't be back there uh, with the other kids. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-RandallM-20180530 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Randall, Mark Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-30 Title A name given to the resource Mark Randal (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Mark Randall grew up in Orland Park, near Chicago, in the 1950s. In this interview, Randall recalls visiting Saugatuck in his youth and living there as an adult. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reyda, Ted (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Sand dunes Historic preservation Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e034af4199a2ddad581f156cb665d9fb.mp3 4e3853da05ee8c8fabba76008a419197 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5051d490a498b542a21a3c49172b94da.pdf 1b924b6c437157333ae70fc75811477d PDF Text Text Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 1 Alyssa Morgan: Oh Now its going. Oh thank god. You’re right. I pressed it twice. Okay, not it’s recording because see the time is, it want doing anything before. Alright, sorry. This is Alyssa Morgan and I’m here today with Karen Morgan, my sister at the Saugatuck Douglas Historical Center in Douglas Michigan on, June nd , this oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today, I’m interested to learn more about um, your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it? Karen Morgan: [Whispering] You didn’t say I was your sister. [Pause] Karen Morgan K A R E N M O R G A N. AM: Okay, um we’re going to start with questions about um, for someone, seasonal residence because Karen was here in the summers. So, how and when did you first come to Saugatuck Douglas area? KM: Okay, um, right after I graduated from high school, it was 9 and I actually started um when the restaurant in the, on Lake Macatawa was newly opened, um, Point West and I was the first group of waitresses that they hired and I knew nothing about waitressing. The Holland experience was a whole new experience for me and I really flubbed up a lot, ordering, went to the bar one night to order a daiquiri and I got mixed up and called it a Dykstra. So we had a lot of exciting adventures trying to be a waitress at the newly opened West Point um, restaurant. Um, but the next summer, I came here with my girlfriend and um, that’s when we settled between Saugatuck and Holland in a little rented cottage. [Whispers] Do you want to go on with that? AM: Yeah, well I was going to say, what were your first impressions of the area? For that, even like the first year, in Holland. KM: Oh the first year, oh the first year was just an exciting time for me, um, I got, I got introduced to the Christian Reform religion from my landlady who would not allow me to um, wash my uniform on Sundays and um, but you know it was just generally, that was the first year away from home, it was a very exciting time, just to have an adventure and meet new friends and do something on my own, um, the next year, I don’t know if you want to ask another question, leading question? AM: Oh um, no you can go ahead. KM: Okay the next year when I came with my best friend and we also both, um, worked at the restaurant um, until she got fired because we talked too much, together while we were working and so she ended up working in um, at the Butler in Saugatuck. So that drew us more into the Saugatuck area um, and we stayed in that house, until about the middle of summer, until we um, our partying got a little bit out of hand and our landlords told us we had to leave. Um, in the meantime my girlfriend Meryl had a big, great big car, used car and um, it didn’t work always properly, in fact it wouldn’t go in reverse at one point and she had to drive around the cottage to get to the road to go to work every day because it wouldn’t go in reverse. We thought, you know now I’m laughing at it, but at that time it was kind of traumatic but we, we also still joked about things like that because we were so young. I was also on a, it was a very freeing time in our little cottage between um, Saugatuck and Holland. AM: And where was it? You don’t, you don’t know what road it was? �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 2 KM: Well actually, when my girlfriend came back to visit one time, we actually tracked it down and tried to find it and we finally did think that we found it, it had changed a lot because it was just like a little cottage on the side of this house, I mean a cottage that hasn’t being inhabited. AM: 64th or 62nd, or? KM: Yeah one of those streets. AM: Yeah between the two. KM: Um, and but, I remember from that time, some of the songs I was telling my sister about this but just trying to just think about back to those time that it was um, I am the rock, Simon Garfunkel Mrs. Robinson from 1966 this would be um, course I was always trying to lose weight and look good, so I was on a rice and fruit diet that summer, so all we had in the fridge was a big joke. We had fruit and beer. [Laughs] AM: Not much different then you have now except you don’t have the beer. [Laughs] Okay. KM: Okay, go ahead. AM: Okay I was going to say, okay did you have a summer job locally, and then how old were you? So you were like, right out of high school? KM: the first summer and then 19 with my girlfriend, yes. AM: Yeah, yeah. Um, let me see what was that experience like, um, did you, oh, tell about the, the bird center, because didn’t you get? [00:05:02] KM: Okay, so after, to continue, after um, we had to leave our little cottage, we we scrambled around to look for a place in Saugatuck and at that time, um, there was a place called the Bird Center and this was a popular place for waitresses to um, live during the summer while they worked um, each room had a birds name on it and the lady who owned it um, lived behind us and that, that building still stands on. AM: It’s right on Lake Street. KM: On Lake Street. AM: And someone told me, and I don’t know, remember I told you that someone told me just recently that that lady um who owned it, and I don’t know if it was the same one, but I think it was, just died. KM: Died. Okay. AM: No that long ago. KM: That could be. Um, so I remember a couple of the girls that were actually there, Bridget um a big busted gal real sweet she was always trying to exercise and lose weight a woman named a a friend named Barb um, so it was right there kind of where we could just right in the center of town so we could, we were really centrally located. AM: How much did you pay, do you remember? �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 3 KM: I don’t know. I can’t remember, I just remember that there, my sis, my girlfriend and I had to share a bed because that was, we just had this little room with one bed and there was always sand in the bed because we’d always come in from the beach. And our sheets were always full of sand. AM: Oh! I know something that my sister was telling me that was really funny about Mom and Dad not knowing where you were living? That was the first summer? KM: Uh, listen. I was telling her that the first summer, oh, no it would be the second summer when I was with my girlfriend we came over here looking for a place and actually tried to find a place in Holland at the time because we were both going to be working in Holland and there was a little apartment and um, we thought we might get, but then it fell through and so we had to sleep in the car. But we can’t, Alyssa can’t figure out why my parents wouldn’t know where we were staying. But I do know while we were at the Bird Center, one day we looked out the window and there was my girlfriend’s father, Tony walking around looking for Marilyn so. AM: Because he didn’t know where she was? KM: Yeah! AM: And of course that was before cellphones. KM: Oh yeah AM: Or anything like that. Ah, let me see [inaudible] Oh, did you spend time on or near the water and what activates did you participate in and where did you go? KM: Okay well we went to the beach, uh, I actually have a photo of me that was in the newspaper from um, being at Oval Beach um, I do remember just loving to walk to the dunes, um, see where we, I came, I came from Hastings which was miles inland and we had many lakes there but we were um, as a, as a small child we used to come, children we used to come and um, vacation just like for a day at Lake Michigan and that always was a big deal we didn’t do it very often. AM: And we usually went to, Holland. Or Grand Haven or something. KM: So I was drawn to this area, we had experienced it just a very little so I, I mean I just was always drawn to the big lake and we didn’t use the beach I remember, I remember sun bathing in the dunes it was just so beautiful. AM: Um, if you stayed in Saugatuck did you ever go to Douglas and if you were in Douglas did you ever go to Saugatuck? We’re discussing this every day. KM: Okay, uh, we don’t, I don’t remember anything about Douglas at all. AM: Yeah, nothing, right? KM: Nothing, it was just the word Saugatuck and we stayed around there. AM: Interesting, yeah. Okay. Uh, were there any other places or institutions um that were important to you here in Saugatuck at that time? Like any other, I guess it would be like even restaurants? KM: Arts. �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 4 AM: Yeah, okay KM: Well my girlfriend when she came back to visit me she uh, thought that the Sandbar might have been there for, I mean she felt the Sandbar was there when we were there. I don’t remember it. But of course she worked at the Butler and then, of course the Coral Gables was, was the big um, place and her boyfriend, um Rocky Driver who was from Detroit he was a bar, he was a bouncer at the um, the bar down below. What would I call that, The Old Crow I think they called it? I think it’s called the Old Crow. So that was the center of activity and I do remember um, actually you might have a… AM: Question? KM: Question later on about this. I’ll go on. AM: Go ahead. KM: Oh, okay I was just going to say, in front of the Old Crow I was just telling her husband this morning, but in front of the Old Crow I do remember this, they had a um, it was considered like a party town uh they, they did have like a some kind of truck or camper or something parked in front of the old Coral Gables and they were giving out free Martinis to everyone. [AM Laughs] They were. AM: Did they check your IDs? KM: I don’t remember, but I just remember that I never drank martinis after that. [Both laugh] AM: That’s funny, okay let me see I think I got most of these, a seasonal, okay how did you first come to Saugatuck, why did you first come to Saugatuck? KM: Who I came with. AM: To get away from mom and dad? What as that like, your first impressions, how long you’ve been coming to Saugatuck, what else, where else do you live during the year, okay well, um, who did you come with, with your girlfriend, okay, what was this area like then? Um, what was your favorite place to eat in the summer? Did you, you probably didn’t. KM: We didn’t eat out much, although you know we did work at the restaurants so we probably just ate at the restaurant a lot. [00:10:04] AM: Yeah. Because you kept working there, the second summer, right? KM: The second summer then I actually worked in a bar at the, towards, right towards the end I was a bartender. Although in those days of course you couldn’t drink. I worked at, yeah I was a cocktail waitress at Point West. Um, and but of course because, I couldn't, I wasn't for me to drink although I serving was cocktails. AM: Right. �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 5 KM: Yeah. AM: Yeah, yeah. Um, where did you guys, so you just ate the restaurant, don't you remember, and you had that, kitchen in the one place. The bird, the Bird Center, they didn’t, they just had a room. KM: You’re right. Yeah, okay. I don't remember where we ate. AM: You don’t remember. KM: That's right. I don't know. AM: Um, I, I want to ask about students because you were student then because, um, we're you saving money for, for college? KM: Um, yes. AM: Yeah. KM: That's what I was here for. I was a student at Western um, and I did lend $60 to my girlfriend's boyfriend called Rocky Driver, who he never, never paid me back. AM: [Laughs] And that was a lot of money in 1960, 6 was it? Was it the second year? KM: [Laughs] Yes. AM: Yeah we figured it's probably about $300 now, or more. Um, well this question, you know this is for the students, says for students but, how did your first hear of Saugatuck Douglas. I guess it would just be because you got their job at the… KM: Yeah I don't know. See I used to, when I was, you know, in school that's what kids used to do. We used to, you know I guess they still do but I mean, you know, we used to go to places and I had looked at Lake George in New York. AM: Oh, right. KM: You know, and it was exciting or you went to Fort Lauderdale, in those days. So this was actually the closest place, you know and they needed, needed waitresses. AM: Right. Let me see, how did you first year in Saugatuck Douglas, okay. Who did you visit the area with others from your school, family members, we kind of talked about… KM: I can tell a little bit more about Point uh, Point West a bit. I just remember there was um, Stan was the um, was the mean Chef, the head chef that you know no one, he, we were scared of him because everything had to be perfect, and we didn't ever do anything right. And Martha was the head, the oldest waitress that was, would go into complete fits if you didn't get your omelet fast enough and it fell before you served it, and then I started dating Danny the bartender. AM: Oh, right, and he was, I'm not being interviewed this is Alyssa, but Karen foxed me up with a blind date. I was still in high school and I came over and I had a blind, blind date with, was he a bus boy or something? KM: His name was Warren. �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 6 AM: Warren. KM: And Alyssa dressed all in white, she looked so cute. AM: One night, that was it. [Laughs] Okay, um so we're going to go onto questions about life, work, and shenanigans. In Saugatuck Douglas and you’ve answered some of these but there might, there might be some others. How would you describe Saugatuck Douglas to someone who has never been here and, I, I assume that means when she was living here but you might want to say both? Um, and how would you compare the area to other places you’ve lived or worked? KM: Okay. AM: This is a good time. KM: Okay, so we'll talk about um, the idea that I actually started out here um, like right after high school of course drawn to the water and the freedom of um, a resort area and what happened is I actually ended up um, on the East Coast working for Eastern Airlines as a flight attendant, so I lived in Boston for four years and then I was drawn again to Cape Cod, south of Boston, and that, that is it was an island, or I mean a peninsula basically as you know, surrounded by water and beaches and really a more free lifestyle which probably started when I started living in Saugatuck and sort of formed my opinion of that kind of um, a beautiful nature area, but also, um, you know people are drawn to it for um, interesting ideas, and art and then we actually when Alyssa moved down there also, we all done together and we lived on the lower Cape and then actually ended up living at one point um, in Provincetown which would be, you know similar to Saugatuck in some ways. Um, you know on the east coast, you know there’s a more, a New York influence of course but then I got very interested very involved in art from living in uh, in Provincetown, and of course we had the beauty of the beaches and water, just like here, and so then when I came back to Michigan for, um, some more family um, involvement and security, with, with my elder relatives and I again was drawn back to Saugatuck. I used walk a dog, we didn't have any place that I walked this dog in Hastings and so um, I started going uh, okay let's just go to the beach. So I'd take her to the beach and then Alyssa started coming with me and then I brought my Dad over, um he was like 90 years old and I would take him to Wally's. We’d go to the coffee shop, Uncommon Grounds and he would go to Wally's and have his cocktails and so, Saugatuck is actually been sort of, uh reflective of my life on the East Coast a little bit smaller scale but something I can still get involved with, with the still freedom of the beauty and the water and um, people that are involved, you know the fun people that are coming here to have fun. [00:15:27] AM: Uh, and how long did you live on the East Coast a number of years, right? I do know, but. KM: 30 years, 30 years. AM: 30 years so she was gone long time. Um, really, and so was I. Um, so you compared to other places you’ve lived or worked, okay. In what, in what ways has the area changed? KM: Okay. AM: Over the time you've been here or been coming here. �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 7 KM: Okay. Uh, now see when I was here as a young person I really was working and just, you know dating, meeting guys and that kind of thing, um, having new girlfriends so I wasn't that involved in the culture so much I can actually think about it, um, you know in a more mature way but um, I do know since I developed artistic um, uh interests on the East Coast when I came back here I started getting more interested in the, in the arts that you have here and got, got, I go to Oxbow sometimes and see what's going on there and so forth so I know that was already here but I really didn't know too much about it, but I think it has developed more in, in the, with the arts. [pause] And restaurant development. AM: Oh yeah, I was going to say like housing and, how is that, is that changed? KM: Well housing, I'm sure, I don't know so much about the housing because we don't, I don't live here but. AM: Yeah. KM: The restaurants would be also something that are, is actually a lot better than, you know, course long time ago. AM: Yeah, yeah. KM: A lot more variety and, okay. AM: Uh, well this question you kind of answered, why was Saugatuck Douglas your destination of choice in the summer. I mean you. KM: Yeah, it gave me a sense of freedom. AM: Um and you, can you tell us some of your favorite memories of being here in the summer or uh, poignant memories or sharp? KM: Kind of vivid? AM: Yeah, vivid memories. KM: Okay, so I'm going to um, recall a story that was uh, sharp, it, it was a sad story actually but it was part of what had happened this summer. Um, when my girlfriend was dating uh, Rocky Driver from Western. He, they were from Detroit, he was in Detroit so his, his best friend was named Bruce. And so they would drive over in their motorcycles to come see us. And I sort of start hanging out with Bruce, um, real nice guy, he was going to Eastern College, Eastern, Eastern University so they actually ended up renting a little, a little cottage and be on the left side of, would be across the street from us. What's our street? AM: Lake Street. KM: Lake Street. So that be on the, the inlet that comes in. Okay, that's, I think those are all gone now, of course. They were, they’d be on the left hand side, right on the water there just a little cottage that were available, so they start renting those. We, this is just more like midsummer probably and um, anyway one night um, after it was like a Friday night, almost sure Bruce and I, he came over to see, and I was at the bird Center and I'm remember exactly what I wore I had this little white crop top I had borrowed, borrowed Barb and low slung, you know, blue hipster pants and sandals, and we sat in the �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 8 porch for a while I sat in his lap and we had a nice time and we walked down town to the ice cream shop and I think ice cream shop is probably still there or at least it's the same area. It was there then and we, and he, he, he had um, mint chocolate chip ice cream, just was a nice evening together and we went back to his, down to his little cottage and we started drinking you know I don't know what beer and stuff wasn't hugely a party or, at that point. But anyway then after a while, and Rocky was I think, uh, working at the, as a bouncer that night so he wasn’t at the cottage and then um, a few people showed up later on as the evening, evening wore on and um, Bruce was outside and I was supposed to go the next day to Detroit with him actually because his parents were in vacation in Canada and we were supposed to go the next morning to Detroit to have a party for the weekend. So, um, our weekend was kind of planed. Well he goes outside he starts up, I'm kind of just with my girlfriend, kind of out of it because I drank too much and stuff, so I run out, I hear the motorcycle run, running so I run out and say where you going, he said I’m going for a ride well he took this woman for ride her name was Ann from Lansing. I didn't know her but they, they go and off and no big deal so then but he never came back and I got later and later and later and I just thought wow what happened you know this is weird, really weird so I finally go home and I'm walking around with Barb. I was really upset at that, at that point and didn't know what happened, so I go back. I go to bed and I hear our land lady from the bird Center comes in and says there's been a fatality. Well I jump out of bed and, a motorcycle fatality, so anyway I run down of the cabin and sure enough Rocky and Marilyn were there and Bruce had gotten killed on his motorcycle. He got, he had gone out and taken Ann on a ride and came back and that big curve on Lake Street on the, on the curve there, this is before they used to have to wear helmets. He must've hit the telephone pole and um, hit his head evidently and broke his neck or something and died right there at the scene and Ann had broken her leg. So of course we just were all totally in shock and um, he was such a nice guy, a real nice guy, you know just sweet guy. A student, twenty one years old. Anyway so we did go and we rented a, we had a, I had my old black Ford and we actually went to a funeral in Detroit after that but um, I called my Dad and he said, I think it's time to come home. [Laughs] So that was kind of the end of a you know, a great summer but still you know we had, it was a great summer and he did have a good time while he was he was here with Rocky on his motorcycle so, you know, that's kind of the starkest memory in the summer. [00:21:08] AM: Yeah. Um, where there a lot of motorcycles around then? KM: Um. You know. AM: There's a, there’s another question about it here. KM: Yeah. AM: It said um, what type of shenanigans did you get into, were you a participant, an instigator, or bystander of mayhem? And I love that word mayhem and shenanigans. [Laughs] Yeah, okay, and what was your impression of law enforcement? Did you ever get involved? KM: No, not really. AM: Did you ever get caught or see someone else get caught and what happened? Caught doing, I don't, I'm not sure really what, but I don't know if that be like drinking under age or doing some… �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 9 KM: Yeah I’m, this, we were just all kind of, it was sort of innocent behavior when, at that time, in those years. I mean from my, my experience. I never saw anything really. AM: Yeah. KM: Too crazy or too wild but then again you know, I wasn't here that long it wasn’t out late at night particularly, you know? So. AM: What special events, if any did you attend in Saugatuck, things like music festivals, motorcycle races parties? You've talked about the parties. KM: Yeah. AM: Did you ever go to any parties that were you know like invited, you are invited with a whole bunch of others? KM: Yeah, you know, I don't, I don't remember that so much. AM: Yeah. KM: I don't remember it. AM: You were probably working a lot weren’t you? KM: Yeah, I don't, I don't number. AM: Yeah, um, and were these organized events are informal, everything was, was it formal? KM: Everything that I knew was pretty informal. AM: Uh huh. KM Yeah. AM: Uh huh. Describe a scene of mayhem. I guess you know, Bruce. That's not really mayhem, but I guess that would be the closest to… KM: Yeah. AM: Something being very upsetting or? KM: Yeah. It, well it changes your life in some you ways, you start to, you grow up faster when see something like that happen. AM: Yeah. KM: Yeah. AM: Um, well there’s. KM: And then also when my girlfriend, um, when she’d come to visit me, we, I would bring her over here. AM: Yeah. �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 10 KM: Marilyn, we would go to the coffee shop and of course we had… AM: And Marilyn, um, you might want to say, just say some about Marilyn, having, having left kind of, kind of, I mean she well, no she stayed in Michigan for a while and then she left Michigan. KM: Yeah she went to Detroit. AM: Yeah. KM: And then went to Colorado actually. AM: Yeah. KM: Lived in Colorado most of her life. AM: Are you in, you don't know any of the other people? KM: Oh. Any up here? AM: Yeah. KM: Um, no I don't, I don't. AM: Where are those girls from, Barb and, did they go to college or? KM: Yes, I, I probably? AM: Probably? KM: No, I don't really remember it’s kind of how, you know how it is when you get, when you. This is an interesting thing because, since it's all about memory. AM: Yeah KM: You sort of have since I've been talking about this with Alyssa, things have actually come, um, clear. You know a little more clear that never even thought about it all, so that's been kind of interesting thinking about what had actually happened, my memory. But there seems like, it's just like anything with memory there's certain, there's certain shots or certain slats, a sliff, uh what’s the word. AM: Slice? KM: Slices of, just memory. So I'm not, I'm not doing a real big full picture here because I, I think that is like anything you remember when you were young. AM: Yeah. KM: You think of, just sort of… AM: The outfit you had on... KM: Yeah! Yeah but after that I mean all the time in between that kind of, you know it's kind of a blank. AM: Did you have to wear a gold uniform? KM: Yeah it was gold. �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 11 AM: [Laughs] I remember that! KM: It was gold, gold and white shoes and a little white blouses. You know remember the golden uniform? AM: I remember they were, ugly. KM: Yeah. AM: They're like that real... KM: Actually the bar, bar, tender, I mean a bar maid. I got to wear a white blouse with white ruffles in front. AM: Oh. KM: Like, more V-neck and a, and a burgundy skirt. AM: Oh, burgundy. KM: Yeah. AM: Because we used to have to wear, I wore black I think, one time. KM: Okay. Yeah, that was… AM: Everybody did? Everybody wore the? KM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:25:00] AM: Um, also oh you might want to say something about um, Mary Cook's cottage because wasn’t that where? KM: Oh! Okay. Well this is might be the way that we were introduced to this area. AM: Yeah. KM: Okay. AM: In a way. KM: Okay, um, my father's uh, parents friend Mary Cook and her husband Les used to have a cottage that’d be right back behind where the restaurant was. So, and those, those were. AM: That was, um? KM: Point West. AM: Point West. KM: Yes, okay in Holland and they, they’re was these, [pause] adorable, um Lake Michigan cottages. Old cottages and there was like planks that went out to the beach you can walk along the plank between the cottages and you’d walk out to the beach. And we allowed, we were allowed, I think we probably rented �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 12 from her, or she allowed, allowed us to stay, our family I'm not sure. But we stayed there a few times. Um, and we just loved that. So that was probably one, another reason I was drawn to this area. AM: Yeah, uh-huh, and we don’t know if those cottages are there, right? KM: I don't think there, I think I looked for them when I came back here actually and I came back, and that’s that gated area back there. AM: Oh. KM: There’s like a gated area now. AM: Yeah. KM: You have to go through the gate and it's, I don't know if they might have maintained some. I don't know about this. AM: Yeah. KM: They might have maintained or remodeled them somehow. AM: Yeah. KM: But the whole, the whole feeling of the old cottages is not there the way was. AM: Yeah. KM: Yeah. AM: Because we don't, well I shouldn’t speak for you, but spending time in Holland really, you know. KM: Yes. You have to go back and look, you don't you have to go back and look for that. Which I did when I first came back here I did go back and look to sort of retrace my steps and um, I couldn't find but I did find some areas that were familiar, you know a little bit. AM: Um, let me see if there's any other, is anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to talk about? Um, there's a couple actually, a couple of these looking towards future, is kind of interesting. KM: Looking towards the future? AM: Well there’s a couple, let me see, there’s one, um. [Pause] Oh, okay this is a good one. Remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time, when someone listens to this tape fifty years or plus from now, years from now. KM: Yeah. AM: what would you like, what would you most like them to know about your life and community although this is not really where she lives, but, you know. KM: Okay. Okay I will, I will um since I'm very much into nature and so is my sister and uh, my friends, we’re into nature preservation. Um, and so my experiences living on Cape Cod because the Kennedy's established the national seashore there and, and, saved the beaches which is what makes it so very, very special for everyone that lives in this country. Is that our conservation, the, the, what is it the �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 13 alliance group that’s here? That's been fighting so hard to protect, to protect our beaches and our marinas areas, um or actually not to develop new marinas. Uh, this for the Historical Society is something that really needs to be looked at and, and supported where we are preserving what we have here. Because otherwise this interview wouldn't, will not be taking place in the future. AM: Yeah. KM: You'll not be having people here that want to come here because of the beauty um, unless you, we as a community work really, really hard to keep what we have so we, so our generations behind us can have the same kind of experiences that I, that I have experienced. AM: Good. Very good, I, I agree. KM: Okay. AM: Uh, and then this, this is kind of goes along with it but any advice for the young person who may listen to this tape? KM: Oh, I don't know. Just um, just a way to open your mind and meet new people and maybe sort of, um, if you get involved in volunteering or work is to um, to be able to um, grow and um, contribute to your community. Get involved in projects that would that um, that would make the um, the community more, more livable. It's a great place to live here so I think that be something that um, young people could not only work but also just um, enjoy it, but also to contribute in some way. AM: Yeah, I, I’d say one thing that was interesting, Karen and I were talking about um, yesterday is we were talking about, we wonder and we don't really know how many young people come from college. KM: Oh. AM: Yeah, and work like they used to do. KM: Is, is housing um, affordable? AM: Affordable? I mean this is just kind of an open question, it's not even… KM: Because I Cape Cod the housing is not affordable for, um college students any more. AM: Yeah, to come and work. KM: So we don’t know if that’s… AM: Yeah. KM: Is that, is that something? AM: We don't have the kids here or, know you, grandchildren, so we don’t know. KM: But that’s a good question. Is there being, is there being um, affordable housing provided somehow. AM: Yeah, and do they, and do they need, um… KM: More support? �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 14 AM: Young workers, well, young workers. KM: Oh! AM: You know, in the stores and restaurants I don't, we, we don't even really know that question. KM: Yeah. [00:30:00] AM: But, um I mean maybe it's fine. KM: Yeah. But that would be a different… AM: Um, maybe it’s totally changed. KM: May be a different experience of people. AM: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that was probably, I asked Karen this um, couple days ago and we were talking about, um, if she remembers if a lot of people were, were living like she did at the Bird Center. KM: Yeah, I think they were. AM: Or, you know young people that working, coming in saving money. KM: Yeah, and that's why was much so fun. AM: Yeah, because um at that time and because I'm four years, I'm not trying to take over your interview. KM: No… AM: Because I’m four years, you know younger but I was within that same generation basically what um, young people. I don’t want to say everyone, but so many of us, that's what we did, because we, we had to contribute to paying for our university um degrees or going to college. KM: Yeah. AM: Just put it that way. KM: So you had to have enough affordable housing that you could still save money. AM: You could still save money and that's what happened on Cape Cod, that you know, they can no longer really do that. KM: Yeah, so the community should, should look at that. AM: Yeah I, yeah I don’t know if they still do. KM: Yeah. AM: Um, is there anything else that you'd like to share that I may not have asked you about? Is there anything else? KM: I can't really remember. I'm still um, still enjoying the beaches and… �Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan June 15 AM: Yeah, and we went swimming! KM: And we're swimming, I’ve been swimming since um, well in Lake Michigan, well we went this weekend. AM: Last week, last weekend. KM: Last weekend, um, and we love that coffee shop in town, of course. So, we think Saugatuck is just as great as it ever was fifty years ago. AM: [Laughs] Very good, very good okay. Thank you very much for your, so much for your time and for sharing your memories with me. Memories that I've heard about before, by the way since I'm her sister [Laughs] KM: And thank you for interviewing me. AM: Yeah this concludes the interview, I’m going to see if I can turn this off now. [00:31:52] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-MorganK-20180604 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Morgan, Karen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-04 Title A name given to the resource Karen Morgan (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Karen Morgan moved to the Saugatuck area after she graduated from high school and began waitressing at the new West Point restaurant in the 1960s. In this interview, Karen reminisces about her young adulthood in Saugatuck. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Morgan, Alyssa (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d73277e9d35f651fe92fbd57120c041.mp3 2ab5ff280ca4a5a84e608f0a95f2c8ef https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/263cd05a29cfc3ed35636028cff52c5a.pdf 0d303506d4fc1f79f41471be77b1dfba PDF Text Text Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 1 Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollanneck and I'm here today with. Paola Doyle: Paola Doyle. EG: At the old school house in Douglas Michigan on October the 9th, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thanks for meeting with us today, we're interested in learning more about your family history and your experiences of summer in Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you repeat your name for us, your full name and spell it for us? PD: My first name is Paola, P A O L A, last name Doyle, D O Y L E. EG: That's great, yeah. And then uh, your maiden name? PD: My maiden name is Vacco, V A C C O. EG: That's great. Thank you so much. And is there any accents, uh, when spelling your name or special characters or. PD: No. EG No. Okay, great. Thank you. Alright, so let's start out, tell us a little bit, Paola, about where you grew up and about your family? PD: Okay. Be happy to, um, was born and raised in the Chicago land area. Uh, originally, uh, from Oak Park, Illinois. And then when I was about in fifth grade, my family moved to Oakbrook, Illinois. EG: Okay. PD: And that was very, spent most of my childhood living, um, and our summers were spent here in Saugatuck. EG: That's great. So you were born in Oak Park and, and, and grew up there. Tell us little bit about your, your parents as well. Their names and maybe a little bit about them. PD: Sure, uh Dad uh, his name was Aldo A L D O and my mom was Gloria and they as well, we're born and raised in Chicago. Our, my Dad, his family is the ones that have brought us to this area and they came, my dad grew up here in the summers from birth on. EG: Oh, wow. Okay. PG: And he often would tell us how he learned to swim in Lake Michigan. EG: Yeah. PD: As, as a toddler. So, uh, so we go back many, many years. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 2 EG: Absolutely. Yeah. And do you have a sense of what we were, your father was born, your mother and father were born? PD: Uh, I, my, my mom was born in 1927 and my dad was born in 1928 so, yeah!. EG: Okay, same year as my grandfather as well. So, so he would have been coming here in the 1940s then or in 1930’s? PD: Correct. Yes. I, you know, I believe that the family cottage uh was built in 1931. EG: Okay. PD: I think that's, you know, if, if my memory serves me correct. EG: Do you remember much of how they, the talk about how they came here? Did they come by boat by steamer or did they drive? PD: You know, they would drive and my dad and his siblings, uh, my grandfather would drive them up because uh, my grandmother did not drive at that time. So my grandfather would drive them up and they would spend the summer here and he, you know, ran a grocery store uh, slash liquor store business in Chicago. So it was hard for him to be up here as much. So, uh, but the, my dad and his siblings and mom would spend the entire summer here. EG: Do you have any sense of what the timing of that was? I mean from Memorial Day to Labor Day, or, or? PD: Pretty much, yes, yes. When they would be out of school and so forth. And then I think as my dad got older, sometimes they would have to help out at the store and things like that. EG: Right. PD: Um, but he, uh, you know, loved spending the summers here and, and I do have some letters because in those days they didn't have the telephone in the cottage. And so I have letters that my grandfather wrote to my dad telling him of his chores he needed to do up here to help out my grandmother. EG: That’s fascinating to have that record. PD: I do, so it's fun to read those and you know, what was expected of them as a family and how lucky they were to be able to spend their summers here and you know, play and you know, and just really enjoy being here. EG: Right, right, oh that’s, that’s wonderful. So a family tradition going back. PD: Correct. EG: For a generation at least, maybe two. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 3 PD: Yes. And then as we, as you know, as our parents got married, my dad and his siblings and had children, which would be my cousins, it continued and my grandmother would really spend the entire summer here from Memorial Day to Labor Day and us, which was nice for each family because each family back then as growing up, we were given two weeks of the summer and with, with our grandmother and our families and, and so, and a lot of times our families would overlap with our cousins, you know, switching of, you know, the, the weekends, you know, when it was, it would be one families turn to come and one family vacation was over. So we would usually spend a weekend with that family. And, you know, and just, I remember my grandmother, every time we would leave, she at the cottage door, she'd make the sign of the cross on all of us and say, God willing, we'll all be back next year. You know, so that was really special. Uh, you know, we love being here, you know, those two weeks. And, uh, you know, and then as time went on and as we got older, you know, everybody, you know, my grandmother passed on, you know, things changed a little bit and that the cottage was still in the family and shared for many, many years. [00:05:54] EG: Right, right. PD: And uh, families would come up together and just a place for us all to gather. EG: Right. Wow, yeah that’s amazing. Tell, tell, tell me a little bit about uh, the rest of your family now that you have, you had siblings? PD: I do. I have a sister and one brother. And so we to, you know, have many fond memories of being here and with all of our cousins. And I, you know, oftentimes people say, well, your family is so unique. But I think, I think that's unique to Saugatuck because, as we meet friends here and have become friends with others, you know, a lot of them have the same history we do. You know, it starts out with your grandparents coming here and it continues generation to generation. EG: And this, this extended family, it sounds like what you're talking about exactly. PD: Exactly, yes. EG: Some Aunts and Uncles there. PD: Yes. EG: A closer family than most people might, that other people might think of. PD: Exactly. EG: Their second cousins, third cousins. PD: Right. And even though a lot of my cousins, some of us have left the Chicago area, but everybody seems to make it back here during the summer, you know, coming from California, Minnesota, New York, Missouri, you know, wherever everybody makes it to Saugatuck every summer, which is really unique, I think, you know, it's just, and uh, and I remember my grandmother always saying, I want this �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 4 to be a place where you all come and be together as a family because your live's will get busy and take you many different places. And I often think if she were here today, how proud she'd be of her family, that all of us, her grandchildren, she had 17 grandchildren. How we are all very close. And we do spend a majority of our time here, you know, especially in the summer and in a lot of us have bought our own places over the years. So there's quite a few of us that, um, are starting to live your full time. EG: Right. PD: Which is really, unique. EG: Yeah, and that’s even more of a draw to bring people back. PD: Exactly. EG: To come here and... PD: Exactly, yes, you know. EG: Yeah, for sure, fascinating. So tell me a little bit of kind of, that, that background is really wonderful. Tell me a little bit about your first memories coming here, that you can recall. PD: Okay. I remember always, you know, packing the car, you know, in Illinois and getting it all ready and just as we would be driving up here singing songs in the car, playing you know, silly games in the car, you know, looking at different license plates and things like that. And it was just really kind of traditional what we would do in the car on the way up here. EG: Yeah. PD: Then when we'd get up here, you now, uh, my grandmother's cottage was on Park Street, you know, not too far from Mount Baldy, but I'm not sure how many cottages down, but 10 or 12. EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: And the first thing all of us kids would do was want to run up Mount Baldy [Laughs] and it was just, you know, run up the stairs and then of course not take the stairs back down, but go down the sand hill. EG: Right. PD: And roll, and, you know, so that was really what we would forward to doing. And then of course the beach was our big highlight, you know. EG: Sure. PD: Just to go uh, and play in the sand. And I remember always going into the cottage basement to want to see what inner tubes were there. EG: Right. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 5 PD: And toys to play with at the beach, you know, as, as a little child know. And then, uh, we would go to the beach as a family and spend most of the day, they're while my grandmother would remain back at the cottage and be cooking. EG: Right. PD: And you know, we'd come home and she'd have pies baked and, you know, and every now and then we would pull her out to the beach. You know, she, she, you know, wasn't wanting to go every day because her enjoyment was being, you know, at the cottage doing things . EG: Space to relax. PD: Exactly, exactly. She had her little dog and she would wait for us to get home and, you know, and then we'd have our, our dinners and all of that and you know, and just sit and reminisce and tell stories and, you know, things like that. So those are my earliest memories. And then just remembering too, you know, making our list in the car of everything we wanted to do. EG: Yeah. [00:10:00] PD: And every year the list was pretty much the same, but it didn't matter. We still enjoy doing it. When I was a child, they used to have those, um, you know, pad, paddle boats that you'd, you know, paddle. So we would love to rent those and go down the river and of course go on, at that time it was called the Island Queen. It's the Star of Saugatuck today. EG: Right. PD: But doing that as well, you know, I mean, and then there used to be a miniature golf place in town. EG: Okay. PD: Where wix, the Gazebo is now. EG: Oh right, okay, sure. PD: Yes, so we would go and do that and of course get ice cream. And then there was the candy store, where Pumpernickel’s is and we would, always get to go pick penny candy out, you know, of the big tubs. And that always, you know, so much fun, you know. But it was definitely family time and you know, then, you know, our big night out was going to Holland to a movie, you know. [Laughs] So, you know. EG: So what, if I may ask, what, what year you were born in just in case? PD: I was born in 1959. EG: Okay. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 6 PD: So, yeah. EG: So this would be the early 1960’s, mid 1960’s. PD: Correct. Yes. And then yes. And then as a teenager it was fun because we always wanted to be here with our cousins, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: That was when it, you know, uh, we started to meet some of the local kids [Laughs] EG: You could go out. PD: So we would go out, yes, you know? Exactly. You know, go to sunset, that was the big thing at night to meet all our friends at sunset, at the beach. EG: Okay. PD: You know, and throw a football around and kind of hang out with, you know, our new friends. And so that became, you know, really a highlight in our teenage years, you know. And uh, and at that point it would be, we would always ask for parents, can, you know, these cousin stay with us and that, so everybody started, you know, especially the girl cousins, there was a lot of us, you know, so a lot of fun doing that, and going to town and you know, those kinds of things. EG: Yeah. Oh, sounds wonderful. So I'm kind of picturing these two weeks that you have, that you were here and... PD: Yes. EG: And enjoying all that. PD: And, yes. EG: And, and your grandparents cottage, the family cottage was that was that near, near Mont Baldhead. PD: Correct. Yes, and it's still on the family today. My Aunt Paula that, uh, is, uh, she's the only surviving sibling you know. EG: Right. PD: Today. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 7 PD: And uh, so she has that cottage, the family cottage and so, and a, so it's still enjoyed and we love to go back there and you know, sit around with her and tell stories at the table the same big tables in there and it is, it's really special. EG: Yeah, absolutely. That sense of place, and those spaces too, that you can... PD: Exactly. EG: Still. PD: Right. EG: Still the same sense of feeling, right? PD: Yes. EG: Association. PD: Yes. EG: Wow. PD: You know I remember, I remember the cottage has bunk beds and so a lot of times we would have multiple families there at one time, you know, the cousins, we would try to cram everybody in and it'd be nothing for like three or four people sleeping in a bunk bed, you know or we’d move the furniture out of the cottage to lay down, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: Sleeping bags. Exactly. So I, you know, I think at one point we had 26 people staying overnight. EG: Oh my gosh. PD: And I mean it's not, you know, it's not a big [laughs] space for sure. How so a lot of lot of fun memories like that, you know? So... EG: Wow, that’s wonderful. PD: Yeah. EG: So, so being on that side of the river, then you could have full access to Mount Baldhead. You could run down to the beach. Did you? PD: Yes. We did. EG: Explore in the woods. Did you get a chance to? �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 8 PD: Oh, definitely. We would walk to the old harbor, which. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, my understanding was the original channel from what my dad would say. And it would be fun, we would carve our initials in the trees and then the next year we would try and find that same tree. EG: Right. PD: You know, and then write something else. And, uh, and then of course we did that with our own children. Once I had my kids, you know, we'd get big walking sticks and walk through there and take our dogs and that. So that's tradition as well, you know, and uh, and then I'm, you know, way, and, I am assuming this was in the 70s, but we're, the ferry is, um, you know, not town side but the other side. EG: Yeah. PD: There used to be a store there and we'd call it the Ferry store. EG: Yeah. PD: And I'm not sure if that was the real name of it or not. EG: Yeah. PD: But we would love to go down there because they would have like tea cups and they would sell kind of knickknacks, souvenir-y type stuff, you know. But um, and then I remember it turning into a pizza... EG: Okay. PD: Uh, restaurant at one point and they would deliver pizza by boat. And I remember we thought that was so cool. EG: Yeah. PD: Because we would just a pizza from the cottage because they could run it down [laughs] the river! Right, exactly! And then, you know, so that was there for a few years and then... [00:15:00] EG: Yeah. PD: You know, and now it's not there at all and there's.. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 9 PD: You know, but I do remember we would love to go to the ferry store. You know, how to look at all the tea cups and.. EG: Right. PD: You know, knickknacks that they would have in there. EG: Did you ride the, did you ride the chain ferry? PD: Yes. EG: Frequently? PD: All the time. EG: As well to get back to town? Yeah? PD: We did, we did. EG: On a daily basis? PD: Because our parents would, you know, they'd give us a little money to go to town to buy our ice cream cone. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, so we would do that. And I think one of the memories I really have is we would walk to the Oval Beach a lot. EG: Yeah. PD: Because we would want to get there. This is more as teenagers, but we'd want to get there like 10 in the morning, you know. EG: Get a good spot. PD: Yeah, get a good spot, and you know, sun tanning was important. [Laughs] You know and so, no and it was funny in our parents wouldn’t want to come until like 2 in the afternoon, you know? And uh, so they would say just go, just go, you know. And so we would walk, I just remember walking and cars, you know, every car would like stop and say, you know, would you girls like a ride? EG: Yeah. PD: You know, and you know, and it was so sincere. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 10 PD: And you know when you'd get in and people just, you know, and I think of how we are so cautious today. EG: Right. PD: You now, but I, I just think how simple it was back then. Although, you know, if I see people walking, I will ask them if they need a ride, you know. EG: Right, yeah. PD: And I think, and I still see that friendliness today here in the town. I really do. And so I remember doing that and that, and running in the dunes of course, and walking to the lighthouse and... EG: Right. PD: And then I remember we thought that the Beach House, um, I think it was when it was privately owned and, uh, they had the best hamburgers, you know. EG: Yeah. [Laughs] PD: We couldn't wait to have like an Oval Beach hamburger [Laughs] You know so, it was like, that was our big treat, you know? EG: Yeah. PD: So, I remember doing that and, but we did, we would go on lots of walks through the woods and down the road. Um, and, uh, you know, we would just in the fall we would collect acorns. So yeah, I remember doing that, and then you know, we would paint rocks, you know. Collect rocks, and, you know, my grandmother would paint them and lining them all up outside in the back of the cottage. She was big into feeding the birds. So we would in the morning go out in the back and the woods and you know. EG: Right. PD: Do all of that. EG: Yeah. PD: So a lot of good memories. EG: Oh that’s wonderful. Did you typically walk more often than not, walk down the road to go to Oval Beach or? PD: Oh, yes. EG: Or go over the dunes sometimes? �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 11 PD: Sometimes we'd climb Mt. Baldy and go that way. EG: Is tough when you’re carrying gear. PD: Exactly. You know, but it's funny, I don't remember as a child or even my parents, you know, having all the beach gear that we have today, you know. EG: Right. PD: They brought a blanket. EG: Yeah. PD: And maybe a little cooler. EG: Right. PD: But you know, today it's like we have the umbrellas and the chairs... EG: Righ. PD: …and the little tables and... EG: Yeah. PD: You know, they didn't have all that lets you are just your blanket and... EG: Right. PD: That was pretty much it. EG: Simple. Simple times, right there there... PD: Exactly!. EG: That you were uh, doing new things. PD: Exactly. EG: So less gear, but you were able to just kind of have that quieter space out there. Did you ever, radio, was music at the beach, or? PD: We did, we would bring our, uh, radio and you know, play, you know, play our tunes. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 12 PD: And things like that. And uh, and there were times we would even like start dancing on the beach. And, you know, I remember when the movie grease came out and you know, the soundtrack. EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: That was a big thing you know, that was, you know, we would all gather on the beach and do our thing and you know, we would make pyramids and you know, and, and you could rent the little surfboards at the beach and those big tire, inner tubes, you know. EG: Right. PD: So, I remember doing that, you know, and uh, it just, you know, it was, you know it was just fun. You know, like we were, we would be outside from morning you know, to night, go home and, you know, I'm talking more as our teenage years and go home and have our family dinner. And then the girls, we would love to go to town. We would do the same thing every night. You know, walk around town. EG: Yeah. PD: And then we would get our ice cream and sit on the corner by the drug store and we would giggle and you know, and it was just, it was just really old fashion fun. And, which is really what we've instilled in our own children. You know, coming up here now that we have kids and... EG: Yeah. How did that, how did that work? When you would go to Saugatuck, go to town with the chain ferry? How late did that run? Or did you have to? PD: You know, it only would run until dusk. EG: Okay. PD: You know, so if we were there later. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, someone would pick us up. EG: Okay, you could call them or something? PD: You know, my dad or, yes. Of course we didn't have cell phones back... EG: Yeah. PD: …then, you know, but or we'd have a set time, you know, my dad would say, okay, and we always, it was always in front of the drug store. That was our... EG: Okay. PD: You know, we'll pick you up at the drugstore, you know, pick you up at the drugstore, you know. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 13 EG: Yeah. You had to do some more planning than we do today where we just leave things wide open. [00:19:58:00] PD: Exactly, exactly. You know, you can just text, hey I’m here. But no, back then it was, you had to have a plan, you know, so we. EG: Do you remember people you met? I mean, especially as you got more into the, you know, preteen or teenage years that you met? Did you, where were they from? Where, was it people from town? Was it from the area, from all over? Did anything stand out? PG: Well we knew some, families, you know, people that had colleges like us down the road. RG: Yeah. PD: And so we would become friendly, you know, so some of them were Chicago people that were also from Chicago. EG: Yeah. PD: But ironically it was, it's funny because now that we have our own children, when our kids would meet the kids up here and they would actually be hanging out with, you know, that generation, third generation of people that we hung out with, you know? EG: Okay, yeah, yeah. PD: So it's kind of passed down, you know. Um, so that's really neat. So some, a lot of people like that. EG: Yeah. PD: Just other cottage owners we've um, become friendly with over the years and remain friends. And then we didn't meet some local you know, kids and I think we mostly met them at the beach because I'm not, you know if my memory serves me right. Just talking, you know, boys walking up to us at the beach. EG: Right. PD: And sitting down and [laughs] you know, that kind of thing. EG: Right. PD: So then we would kind of, you know, hang out with them. And then, like I said, the big thing was to meet at sunset, you know. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 14 PD: You know, we would meet and then figure out what we're doing, whether we're having a bonfire on the beach there at night somewhere, you know, and uh, that kind of thing. We would do that as well. And uh, or gone to town and walk around. And then of course as we got older, older and we could get into like the Crow bar, you know. [Laughs] EG: Yeah. PD: We would do that a little bit, you know. So that was more of like in our twenties, you know. EG: Okay. PD: Early twenties or... EG: So this would’ve been... PD: I think it was 18 though when we were... EG: Okay. PD: To get in. EG: Okay. PD: I think that, you know. EG: So this would have been in the, like the late 70’s by that point, or? Am, I, is my math wrong? PD: Um, yeah, early 80’s, early 80’s. Yes, because I want to say was just starting college and... EG: Okay. PD: …You know, that kind of thing, so. EG: Yeah. PD: Um, so that was, you know, and then, uh, that was our big thing just, you know, at that point then we all want to be up here with our cousins. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, that kind of thing. EG: A lot of fun. PD: And then, exactly. So we would do that and plan a weekend here or there in the fall. Like you know, we would, and then our parents would start letting us come up by ourselves. So that was like huge. [Laughs] You know? �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 15 EG: Right, right. PD: But we were a little bit older then. EG: A big game changer for sure. PD: Exactly. Exactly. EG: Do you remember much being in that area where your family cottage located in the old harbor and that, did you have any interaction with folks from oxbow from the art school or, or explore that property at all? Do you, any, any memories of that? PD: You know what, we would walk down there and things like that. EG: Yeah. PD: Um, I remember my dad telling stories about them as children being involved down there, you know. EG: Okay. Alright, yeah. PD: And their neighbor next door was very involved in Oxbow. EG: Okay. PD: And I remember her talking about classes and... EG: Okay. PD: … things like that they would do. Um, and then our children have taken classes down there. EG: Okay. PD: You know, so, um, I very much support the Oxbow program, I think it's a great thing. And, but um, so yes, go to some of the things that they sponsor, but I personally didn't take any classes there myself. EG: Right, yeah. PD: But you know, our kids have, my kids have, you know, done... EG: Right. PD: …Some of art classes and things like that, you know. EG: But don’t, don't remember much about one, one way or another about, you know, is this kind of mysterious place or, or... �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 16 PD: Or sneaking down there at night. EG: There’s some [inaudible] the ferry store is a place that I know... PD: Yes. EG: …people from Oxbow would. PD: I remember seeing a lot of the Oxbow students walking down the road.. EG: Yeah. PD: Like, walking to and from, past our cottage. EG: Right. PD: I would remember that, and I do remember we would try and go down there at night and scare, we’d scare, we'd scare ourselves. So I don't even think it was that scary [laughing] but we would be like, you know, down there late at night, you know. So I remember doing that kind of thing, you know? But yeah, so and uh, and uh, in fact I walked down there last winter uh, with Renee, my cousin. EG: Yeah. PD: We went to a talk down there, it was like in February and it brought back a lot of memories, you know [laughs] We were trucking through the snow and, [laughs] you know, parking at a certain spot and... EG: Yeah. PD: …Walking down. But, and I can remember the Oxbow students being at the Oval Beach doing their painting. EG: Oh, okay, yes!. PD: You know, sitting out in the, you know, out in the dunes. And we would take walks on the beach and you would see them doing their, you know, landscapes and their seascapes, pictures and things like that. And sometimes they would talk to us and ask us to pose for certain things, you know... EG: Wow!. PD: …in their pictures… . EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: So I'm not famous, I don't think it ever [laughs] I don't think they ever went anywhere. But, but I do remember that, you know, I do remember seeing a lot of them. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 17 [00:25:02] EG: That would leave an impression for sure. PD: Exactly, exactly. I do remember seeing that. EG: Yeah, did you ever spend any time in Douglas or do you have any memories of coming to Douglas? PD: You know. EG: Those years. PD: I do remember coming with my dad because I believe there was a little old, like a newspaper stand. EG: Okay. PD: Or a store and they had donuts, and I remember we would come every day because he went by his newspaper and I don't remember exactly where it was. I mean, I know it was down the main strip. But we would then, we would get donuts and his newspaper. So I do remember doing that. You know, so those are my memories of Douglas. You know, we, um, you know, I don't remember it having the stores and it has today. EG: Right. PD: Um, but I do remember that store, you know, we would come down. EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: You know, so, yeah, yeah. And you know, fishing, you know, we would go and fish, you know, outside, down by the river, by the cottage. We had to like a, you know, a little dock there. So we would go and do that and try and catch fish, [laughs] you know, so we, you know, we do those things, and like I said, a lot of hiking in the woods, and looking for treasures and... EG: Right. PD: You know, we would try and find [Laughs] EG: Did, did you ever explore the Singapore site? Would that have been probably too... PD: I don't remember. EG: More closed off by that point. [Inaudible] PD: Yeah, I don't remember doing that. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 18 PD: I don't, I remember my parents talking at great length about the pavilion and things they did, you know, when there, through, in their early marriage of their dances they would go to. EG: Yeah. PD: I remember them talking a lot about that, you know, I do remember we would spend a lot of time at, Goshorn Lake. EG: Okay. PD: And one of the reasons we liked to go there is because the water was always warmer than Lake Michigan. So, [laughs] so I do, we, you know, and that was like a really big treat for us to go there. You know, when we were up here, we would maybe get to go two or three times during our two weeks that we were here. EG: Yeah. PD: We would love running up the sand hill, it was huge hill. And then in those days you could actually see the dune rides going back there. EG: Okay, yeah. PD: We remember hearing all the people screaming, you know... EG: Yeah. PD: …As you're going down and so would climb the hill to try and watch that. EG: Right. PD: Um, and I remember we liked Goshorn because they had a slide and they had diving boards, and you could do all of that. And of course I do remember the stories about it supposedly was a bottomless lake, you know. EG: Oh wow. PD: And people would, you know, my dad, you know, and my brother was very adventurousome and he would want to try and swim all the way across. And my dad would say, no you can't because we get tired or you get a cramp, you know. So I remember my dad letting him do it, but my dad would go along like on a surfboard, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: Or something in case he would get tired, you know. EG: Right. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 19 PD: So I remember um, him doing that. But we did, we always liked to go there because it was warm, the water was warm. EG: Right. PD: And we could swim in that water. EG: Yeah, sure. PD: And it wasn't as choppy. [laughs] . EG: Share, share a little bit, we talked about your siblings earlier, but just their names and relative ages, relative to you. PD: Sure, sure. Uh, my sister, uh, is Glory Ann, and she is eight years older than I am. EG: Okay, yeah. PD: And then my brother is Jim and he is four years older than I am. EG: Okay, alright. PD: So, and uh, so it was fun. So I was always the little sister that tagged along, you know, and my sister was interesting because she grew up in the 60s. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, was her era, and, and actually I was talking to her about this this weekend because I was with her and she remembers when there was a big rock concert up here and it was held at Goshorn Lake. EG: Right, yeah, yeah. Did she go to that? PD: She did. EG: Okay. PD: She did. EG: Yeah. PD: And what I, what I remember is just the massive amount of people that infiltrated the town and have people were sleeping everywhere. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 20 PD: Even when we woke up in the morning at our cottage door, people like sleeping on our front lawn area, you know there was just... EG: Wow. Which is a long ways from Goshorn Lake. PD: …Exactly. EG: Yeah. PD: Exactly. I mean they were just all over Park Street. I mean, sleeping on people's grass. I mean it was crazy. You know, that's what I remember. EG: Yeah. PD: So she remembers that and she remembers meeting, I don't know if they were keeping track of all the guys they met her and her girlfriend [laughs] it was something like 83 or something. [Laughs] And so, so her memories were kind of fun and you know, and she was saying how her and her girlfriend accepted like three or four different dates with different guys for the same night because they can't remember which one they really wanted to go out with so... EG: Right. PD: They would hide in the bedroom at the cottage and give my grandmother a signal. You know, when the guys would come up to the door... EG: Right. [00:30:03] PD: …And they’d go, no that’s, you know... EG: Yeah. PD: Because our cottage was very open so you could see over and like, no that's not the one I want. EG: Send him away. PD: Send him away. And then another group came and they're like, no. But my grandmother liked them. She started talking to them. So she invited them in for pie. And so [Laughs] my sister goes, I remember being stuck in the bedroom with her friend. EG: Yeah. PD: Because her grandma was having these boys have pie and you know. [Laughs] EG: Right. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 21 PD: And then the ones that they wanted to go out with came, but you know, you could go out because they were hiding in the bedroom. [Laughs] . EG: Oh!. PD: You know, so, so lots of you know, fun stories like that. So she has a lot of stories to that nature, you know. EG: Right. PD: But she said it was a crazy time, you know, and how the town. And then she said the town kind of, you know, went back to... EG: Became quieter. PG: …Became quieter, going back to more a family, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: But she remembers it being, you know, um, just crazy up here, you know, with that rock concert and being there, you know, and how many people were in the town and you know, so when she said they had like makeshift jails in the town, you know, for crowd control and things like that. EG: Right. PD: So, yeah. So, I don't remember all that but. EG: Do you remember much of, you mentioned your grandmother and serving pie to these boys and that, uh you remember your parent’s reaction or other family reaction to, to all of this going on? You know, this kind of? PD: You know what they were to what the, when the big crowds for here you mean? EG: Yeah, yeah. Just the general shenanigans and, and... PD: Yeah, I remember my dad being very concerned and I remember him going out the next morning and looking at all these people sleeping, you know, [laughs] and passed out on our lawn. EG: Yeah. PD: And he just said, first he asked if they were all okay and you know. EG: Yeah. PD: And so forth and then they said, I think it's time you move on. [Laughs] So that was kind of his nice way of saying like, you can leave now. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 22 EG: Yeah. PD: You shouldn't be here, and is private property kind of thing. But you know, first he asked if they were all okay or if they need anything, you know. And uh, you know things like that, but uh. EG: Sounds, sounds like pretty accepting attitude. PD: Yes, you know. EG: High level of tolerance. PD: As long as it wasn't his kids, [laughs] my dad was a little over protective, you know, so. EG: Did your, did your sister get in any trouble or was there any reaction to this, you now, her being at the festival? PD: You know, she said my dad like picked her up or something? EG: Okay. PD: So they can go, but he was, he would drive and pick them up, you know. EG: Okay. PD: Like he didn't let them drive. But she said there was so many cars and things that it was just kind of crazy, you know, so. EG: Yeah. PD: And uh, because I think she was probably, she was in college then because I was probably junior high, I assume. EG: Okay. PD: So she must, she was you know, college age, but… EG: Right. PD: Yes, so, uh, you know, he kept close tabs [Laughs] EG: Right. PD: And uh, she had a curfew, you know, [laughs] so, but um, so lot of good memories like that. A lot of memories of playing games at the cottage. We would just, you know, sit and play board games and cards and things like that, you know, and uh, you know, or we'd be up here and you know, we'd call another relative in Chicago. My Dad would say, why don't you come up, you know, and they'd get in the car and they wouldn't think twice about, you know, making the drive up… �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 23 EG: Yeah. PD: And we’d all, you know, we'd be so excited our cousins are coming, and you know, what kind of thing. EG: Yeah. That’s neat. PD: So, it was, it was really, oh and then one of our big treats was to go to the drug store for, you know, sit at the soda fountain. That was fun. One year we had a water fight there all the cousins started, you know, with our straws, kind of… EG: Oh boy. PD: Spritzing water at one another, and before you knew it, glasses of water being thrown in. The, the lady that ran the Soda Fountain, all she did at that point was walk out and she gave everybody mops and she said, your kids could clean it all up now. [Laughs] We’re like, we’ll be glad to. [Laughs] So, yeah , you know, so it was kind of a fun story. She was a good sport about it, because you know, it's kind of started and then one siblings like here take this and you know, and then before you knew it, that was a big water fight at the soda fountain. EG: Wow. PD: Yeah, you know all in good fun. But yeah, not thinking about the mess we were making. EG: Right. PD: You know, so she was very nice. She just now you can all clean it up. [Laughs] EG: She handled it well. PD: She did. She did. She was a good sport, you know. EG: Yeah. Any other, any other moments, you know, mayhem or you know, shenanigans that you all got into, or saw other people get into? In town or at the beach, or you around? That you want, that you're willing to share. PD: [laughs] Right, right. You know, I think, like I said, I think our, you know, our, our, the memories that we have is just really being together as a family… EG: Yeah. PD: And just sharing that time. In fact, it was, I think it was three years ago, four years ago, we just celebrated 100 years of our family coming up to Saugatuck. So we had a big family reunion. That was really, really special, and everybody wrote down their memories in a book and one of the relatives put the book together, I should’ve, I should have brought it to show you. But, so that was really neat, you know, and, and really most of, when you read the memories of all of our family, it is just about all being together and you know, singing songs and playing games and going on walks and you know, just being �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 24 together and cooking, you know, barbecuing out in the back of the cottage and you and everybody being out there and going for ice cream. That was our big thing, you know, um, like, you know, doing things in the river, you know, um, there was a big, somebody had a rope swing down on Park Street. [Laughs] So I can remember we would all like to go on this rope swing over the river and then fall into the river. You know? [00:36:00] EG: Yeah. PD: So that was kind of neat, and then, that got taken down. But, that was fun. Or swinging from the vines, you know, in the woods. EG: Did, did you all spend time in the Kalamazoo River at all? Or, not, not really? PD: We would swim in it, yeah. EG: A little bit. PD: Yeah, we did. We would, you know, um, you know where we would row? We had a little row boat we'd row across to town. You know, that was like a big thing to do, you know. Um, but yes, we would, we would, uh, you know, swim a little bit in the river and, uh, in front of the cottage. I wouldn't do it today, but [Laughs] you know, back then. So we did, uh, you know, and I don't think there was as much boat traffic back then, not of course as today. EG: Okay, okay. Yeah. PD: Yeah, that's a little bit, definitely more built up. Remember loving the thunder storms up here, especially in the cottage. You could hear the rain on the roof, and you know, we would get flashlights and you know, it just kind of cuddle up under blankets and listening to the acorns fall out on the roof and you know, some really good lightning storms, you know, we would really enjoy, you know, love that as well. You know, and uh, so a lot of, um, you know, like I said, it was just a lot of really quality family time spent together. And just a place where we would all gather and share those times together. And I know that's what we, my husband and I and my siblings wanted for our children to grow up here in the summers as well and you know, and, and they have. So it's really fun to see what they've done. You know, my girls are in their early twenties now, but they participated in the sailing program down at the little yacht club and made their, so they called them their summer friends. So they would look forward to coming up here every summer and doing that and doing pretty much the same thing. EG: Yeah. PD: Going to beach and going to town, riding around, checking everything out. And even today when they come up, mom, let's just drive around town, you know, they like to just, you know, circle around. We do that and they have their friends up here now and then… EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 25 PD: In their teenage years they got part time jobs up here. EG: Okay. Yeah. Tell us, tell us a little bit about your, your, I guess you, you said you went off to college as well. Where did you go to school? PD: I did. I went to Elmhurst College. EG: Okay, yeah. PD: Became a teacher, so… EG: Wonderful. PD: Taught for many years and I'm actually uh, doing some subbing up here. EG: Oh, great. [Laughs] PD: Which is fun, so, its filling. EG: Yeah. PD: I'm enjoying that. And uh, and uh, so yeah. So my job allowed me to be here in the summer… EG: Right, because you had the summer time off. PD: …Because I had my summers off! I know. EG: Yeah. PD: In fact, my oldest daughter, that's why she picked teaching… EG: Okay. PD: Because she was like, then I could be a Saugatuck all summer! Like, there you go! EG: Tell us a bit about your, uh, your, your kids. PD: Sure. I have two daughters. EG: Yeah. PD: Olivia and Nina. EG: Yeah. PD: And, uh, we bought, my husband and I bought our own place back in 2002. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 26 EG: Okay. PD: And which was wonderful because we would spend our summers here. My husband would commute back and forth. Uh, he usually would try and come up on a Thursday night and drive right into Chicago… EG: Yeah. PD: …Monday morning before work. EG: Yeah. PD: And, uh, the girls and I would spend, you know, all summer here, pretty much, you know, go back a few times here and there. But I think because they started growing up here in the summer when they were, you know, like, uh, I think Olivia was in second grade and Nina was in kindergarten, that they were able to establish friends up here and things like that. And they would participate, in like I said, in the little sailing program, they would take art lessons, did library programs. So it really became their summer, you know, their summer friends and then their friends back home and then as they got older we would allow them to bring friends up and things like that. And so that was fun for them. And so they've always loved coming up here and they too are with all my cousin's children, because that's the next generation. And they did the same things we did have bonfires on the beach and you know, and hang out and go out for boat rides and, and do all the same things that we did and play the games and things like that. So it's really nice and they still come up frequently today and I'd love to see all their friends. And you know, everybody like, like us, their friends all come back here every summer, you know, the ones that are all living elsewhere now. And some of them were local families and some were families like them. And we had introduced the area to some of our close friends and they now too and places here. So it’s kind of like everybody falls in love with that. You know, it's, it's just a really great place and I look forward to when I have grandchildren so I can pass it on to them as well. Keep it going. [Laughs] [00:40:57] EG: Absolutely. PD: Definitely. Definitely. EG: For sure. So tell us, kind of looking back, you've got a multigenerational perspective. Uh, what are some things that you, you know, kind of looking at the community, things that have changed, things that have remained the same about the area. PD: You know what? I think the things that I think that have stayed the same, at least for me, is when I come here and now that I'm living here full time, I just feel so totally safe here. And I just feel that it is the friendliness of everybody. You know, people you don't even know, say hi to you, you know, walking down the street or if you're sitting in a restaurant, and I think that's what makes this town so unique is just the, how everybody reaches out. And for being a small town, you know, I do find, you know, everybody, [pause] you know, is willing to share information and just share being together, sharing their togetherness with each other. And, um, I find that really unique. You know, the people, you know, really �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 27 care. I love that you can walk down the street and not everybody's like looking at their cell phone. You know, I mean, um, and you know, and I love going to the post office to get my mail. You know? You see people in there with their dogs, [laughs] you know, and, and that, so I think that in itself is very unique and the charm that the town offers, you know, and its uniqueness and not having chain restaurants on every corner and things like that. I think the quaintness of it, um, I'd like the artistic aspect of the town, you know, um, I think that's really unique and special. Um, and I, I think when I was growing up, a little bit of that was there, I think it's always been there, the art side of it, you know, with Oxbow and I remember Button’s Gallery being here forever. I remember when it was down on Center Street towards the Lake, you know, so I remember, but I don't remember there being as many as there are today. So I think it's been really nice to see how it's grown in the arts and what the SCA offers. You know, what we can pass on to, you know, like my kids were able to participate in a lot of the programs offered you know, by the SCA and things like that. Um, you know, I don't remember [pause] is it, again, I wasn't here all summer as a child, but I don't remember taking part in a lot of the things that my kids have, you know, the library programs and things like that. So… EG: More structured activities. Or more opportunities? PD: Sure. Right, I think it offers a lot for them to explore and, and, uh, my kids were always outside growing up, you know, I mean, they would set up a lemonade stand at the end of our driveway. [Laughs] I mean, just, they really, they played outside and compared to when they would be back in Chicago, you know, it was just, I just think it's very unique in that sense, you know? Um, and that's what I love about it. You know, I just love the coziness of it. And, and plus that everything's relatively so close and it's just going for walks. You know, my husband and I do that a lot now. We, you know, after dinner, we’ll either walk on the beach or we'll walk to downtown Douglas, you know, to get our mail, you know, things like that, and that makes it unique. So I, um, you know, um, but I don't think a whole lot to changed too much. I mean, you know, some things have come and gone, you know. Um, but I like the fact the music in the park, you know, we, that’s our, we love to do that on Wednesday nights and go and sit and you know, just the fellowship that the town brings. I think they do a great job of that. EG: Yeah. PD: So I do, I enjoy that. EG: Yeah. That's wonderful. PD: Yeah. EG: So, uh, a question we’ve asked everyone doing these interviews, remembering that we're saving these interviews that someone may be listening to this recording 50 or more years from now, what would you like them most to know about your life and about the community right now? PD: I guess, thinking back, I, and I do, I, I feel so truly blessed to have this part of my life because I think it really takes you to a place where, like I said, you feel safe but you also feel so content. And I think the happiness that it brings, it's like as soon as I would pull off the exit and to get here, you know, you're just feeling that, like that special feeling that you get when you arrive here. And, um, the uniqueness. And I just think that the towns full of love, I really do. You know? And I think that it's a happy place and I think everybody's, always, generally happy, no matter, you know, you're walking down the street, whether �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 28 you see people eating ice cream cone and even people that are working, you know, the day to day working, you know, I can pull in somewhere and see, you know, uh, somebody, you know, working on an electric line, you know, they're like, hey, how you doing? [Laughs] You know? I mean, I just feel it. It's just such a friendly, welcoming area. And that's what I really love about it. EG: Yeah. PD: I really do. EG: Great testimonial for the, for the character of the place. Anything else that you'd like to share that I haven't asked you about? PD: You know Eric? I think, you know, I, I can't think of anything other than just that. Like I said, I'm feel very blessed that I have had my childhood spent here and that my children and I hope my grandchildren and I hope it continues on and just because I think it is such a wonderful place and the feeling that it gives everybody and I, it's, it's very hard to describe unless you experience it. I think, you know, it really is. And, and I know we've been friends that we have here for the first time, they're like, wow, you know, and, and it's not even that we push it on people, it's just they, you know, um, just feel that themselves. So, you know, when they walk down the street and you know, that just the presence of the whole area, you know, so. I do, I think it's just a charming, charming place and just a wonderful place to be. EG: Well, that's great. Well, thank you so much Paola… PD: Thank you. EG: …for your time, and for sharing your stories and memories with us. Uh, and with that… PD: Thank you. A pleasure. EG: Yeah, that will conclude our interview today. [00:47:54] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-DoyleP-20181009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Paola Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-09 Title A name given to the resource Paola Doyle (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Paola Doyle was raised in Oak Park and Oakbrook, Illinois and spent her childhood summers in Saugatuck. In this interview, Paola remembers visiting her grandparents' cottage near Mt. Baldhead during the summers as a child, and bringing her own children to Saugatuck during the summers as an adult. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/11d86bf697ee9b10cbb39eca9ce3b4aa.mp3 fa0b015dd42050ada7f3719ff193d2c7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/00fe63d886dbd6445b18df84625c8bb9.pdf ab032b9d4012a54a2aa4edb7e2883c4a PDF Text Text Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 1 Ted Reyda: It is October 2nd, 2018 and I’m at, I’m Ted Reyda. That’s R E Y D A here at the old school house in Douglas, Michigan. Conducting an interview, an oral interview owner with a history of Ray Diffendorfer Ray Diffenderffer: Diffenderffer TR: Well, I’m sorry. RD: That’s okay. TR: Ray, if you could tell us the history of when and why and, uh you or your family became a part of West Michigan? And could you spell the name? RD: Sure, D I F F E N D E R F F E R. Diffenderffer. Well I was born in October of ‘43. So I’m just a few days away from being seventy five and my grandparents, John and Helen Diffenderffer used to camp up near Mount Baldhead. And when they found out that they were opening the land, and dividing them up into lots, they were the first group to buy a lot. And there were other people, George Wakefield, Rob Pilkington, Fred Kasperik, um let’s see uh, Chester Giller. Uh, several people who had camped there wanted to come up here on a permanent basis. And uh, so they did that and I can’t give you the exact date but it like um, about 1920. TR: [Inaudible] RD: So, um, I fell in love with the beach, with Mount Baldhead, with the Kalamazoo River. TR: They brought camping? RD: No I, I want camping. They, they bought the… TR: Okay. RD: They built the cottage as I say, in about the twenties. But I uh… TR: Where was the address? Do you know? RD: 840 Park Street, and um it's still in the family, my cousin's son bought it because the family was growing too big and everybody wants either June, July or August, and so um, we're very glad that he did that. So, um I would come up here in the summer, with uh, my parents and um our family. I have a sister who is older, a sister who is younger and a brother who’s younger. Um, and my grandmother was widowed and so, she loved being up here, and… TR: From where, Chicago? RD: From Chicago. And, she, uh obviously, there was no one to take care of her, and when I was 12 my Dad and my uncle asked me if I would take care of my grandmother and to me that was died and gone to heaven. I said sure, I would and uh, so I came up here and I would spend 6, 8 weeks um, watching her. But I also had a lot of time, on my own. And so, um, I be running up Mount Baldhead, running down, jumping in the water, going through all the backwoods and Ox-Bow and what is now Fishtown, and other places, and uh, I just love the beach. There was no, uh, there's no other place in world... �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 2 TR: Yes. RD: It’s just so great and um, at that time there were no fees to get in. The reason it’s called the oval, because it was an oval parking lot um, and uh, I don't even think there were concession stands up there at that time. And uh, there was just a big sign ‘Saugatuck’, and you drove in, and you parked. A lot of people just walked in from coming over from the ferry, and um, then just walked up the uh, road to the beach. Um, a couple of things that I uh, remember is that I worked on the ferry when it was a flat bottom boat. I was about fourteen, and uh, I can't remember the guy who uh, was also rowing the boat but he want to, and he was a little older, probably 16 or 17, and he said listen why don’t you take it for a couple days here or a half of this day, and I'm rowing this flat bottom boat with… TR: Okay, so it wasn’t the chain ferry? RD: Oh, no TR: It was a flat bottom boat. [00:04:59] TR: Chain ferry wasn't working then? RD: I don’t know if it was even uh, well it goes back over 100 years. But either somebody… TR: Wasn’t operating it? RD: No, it wasn’t operational at that time. So, uh, I would row the flat bottom boat and there was a store, right over there, they just called it the ferry store. TR: Yep. RD: You’d get bread and milk, and uh you know sometimes, and um, it cost a dime, to cross you know. Uh, so would row across and then go back and forth and it was just a great thing and it helped me build muscles and things like that. So, so I fully enjoyed that and um, my uh, so we didn't have a car up here but we relied the neighbors, and they were very helpful to bring my grandmother and me to church on Sunday and that was the old Saint Peter’s in Douglas, it was not the new one out on Blue Star Highway. There was a Father Nugent there and uh, I can't who else uh, but during that time, I met May Francis Heath, the white haired queen of Saugatuck. TR: The Grande Dame? RD: Oh, the Grande Dame, she, she radiated and she and my grandmother were uh, were very good friends. And, uh, she did things with the garden club and she did the things, at that time she was instrumental in the library which used to be right across from Blandshires at that time. TR: Yep. RD: And then uh, uh the post office which is now Jim Brandy’s art gallery, there’s a guy there who was Post Master, Val Smith. He called me lucky because was um, I was able to play bingo at the VFW Hall right behind parishes or what is now Alexanders drug store. And I won 3 or 4 games. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 3 TR: Whoa! RD: I would win ten dollars or something like that. TR: That’s a lot of money! RD: Yeah! So he was reading the numbers out and so when I’d go in to ask for the mail, um, he’d call me lucky and you know, the mail was always delivered to uh, just Saugatuck Michigan. No zip codes, no addresses and it was just general delivery. And um, so… TR: They didn’t have home delivery? Everybody had to go to the post office, I would imagine. RD: Yeah, I think so. I don't recall any delivery. And um, going into town which is so different today, uh East of the Sun right on the corner there, that was the Log Cabin Tavern. TR: Uh huh. RD: And then um, course the big pavilion and you walk on down, and then there was the Hollyhock House was a restaurant that specialized in breakfast and lunch and um, of course it was the hotel. Hotel Butler was still at that and then to top off of that, just made it a restaurant. And uh, those were just, you could walk around town and because it was so small, um, people knew you and uh, because we didn't have a car, I would walk from the cottage uh, around the uh, the Kalamazoo River, over the bridge. But I’ve never really walked it, people would pick me up. TR: Wow. RD: It was nice. Very few times that I’d complete the walk you know and um [inaudible] Couple other memories that I have, of course when they built the radar station in ’57 and um… TR: This is the subject of our show for the last two weeks RD: Okay. Well um, there was this panic because of the, uh, Russians were going to come right over, down, down Lake Michigan and people were very uh, curious why, we you know I mean, are we supposed to be wearing, uh gas masks? Or, you know, those kinds of things, and, the stairs before they built the place. They were just all rotted out. TR: Oh, really. RD: It was probably safer to walk up the sand, then it was, because they were all rotted out. So we [cough] we did that, our, you know, I’d climb up the sand, they had a special tractor that was bringing equipment there. I mean there was a lot of uh, electronic stuff and then they put that tower up there, then they put the dome on it, and uh, you know people were just, ‘What’s happening? What's happening?’ You know, it was the height of the cold war and um, those kind of things. So… [00:10:18] TR: You don't know anybody that, they also had uh, local people from what I understand, go up there and do observation things. So, I don't know if you were ever… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 4 RD: No, I did not know that. Um, but uh, it was a busy activity. TR: Oh, I would imagine. RD: Yeah, there were a, a lot of, and they wanted to get that thing done because you how know the winters are. TR: Sure. RD: So, uh they did that and part of the deal was that they built another set of stairs. It was either the Army Corps of Engineer. TR: Most likely. RD: So those are, you know early memories. Uh, downtown was something else, it was where Kilwins is there was, um, Flints, um, uh, it was for an all-purpose general store they sold, um, well everything. Then there was Funks where you’d get the newspaper. TR: Yes. RD: And then of course the post office and then the drug store was known as Parish’s at that time and you can see the… TR: Yeah, the name. RD: And on the post office you see the name Heath. And, right across from the post office, no from the, um, Parish’s drug store, there was a Fruit Growers Bank. TR: Yes. Which is gone. RD: Which is gone now, and now it’s a garden. I don't know who donated the money for that. TR: UH, I’ve heard the name, but I don’t know it right now. RD: And, then there's a bank right behind it now, butts up to the Sandbar. TR: Yeah, was, in your days was the Inner Urban working? RD: No, the Inner Urban was not working. Um, there’s a lot of pictures of the Inner Urban right near the pavilion there and uh, and then it went out to um, was it Macatawa? TR: Yes. RD: Yeah, okay. TR: There was a connection to go to uh, Grand Rapids. RD: Yeah, and uh, and of course the uh, the pavilion. The pavilion was the… TR: Did you ever get to go in? �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 5 RD: Did I go in? Yes, I went to… TR: And the bar below? RD: Well, if you want to talk about the Dock, um, and uh, I can say this is as a joke, but you had to be at least seventeen to get a drink. TR: Yep. RD: You know, and I wasn't even seventeen but they, they knew you got a beer or two. And I can't remember how much it cost, maybe a quarter for a bottle of beer. Um. And then uh, you could walk out on the dock and there was a bunch of graffiti, but it was just you know, gang signs. It was just, this boat, and you’ve seen those pictures? TR: Yes. RD: And then um, there was the, the Owl which was this big boat that came in. There were some others, but the thing that I remember about walking out, on the dock there, is that at the height of the season there 7 and 8 boats all lined up, tied up. TR: Rafted. RD: Out there, and then of course you bring a little boat to bring the people out there. Lots of beautiful women. And uh, it was just, you, you came down, you had to walk by the pavilion. Just had to do it. TR: It was the season. RD: Yeah. TR: Epicenter. The, did you ever get on any of the boats? RD: Yes it did. [Laughs] TR: Oh. RD: Well some of them you’d be backed up and of course, you know because they wanted to avoid the um, waves if you had the bow of the boat there. And I got out to some of the uh, boats that were out in Lake Kalamazoo. And um, it, I mean, there were some wild parties there. TR: Oh, I [Laughs]… RD: But it was, it really was controlled for some uh, reason. So, um I want to talk about the control on the thing is that um, on the big weekends and we're talking um, Memorial Day… TR: Labor Day… RD: Fourth of July and Labor Day. Because so many people came up into town, motorcycles. Um, the police, and I just want to get this straightened out, could block, off the town, with three, um, patrol cars. [00:15:03] �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 6 TR: Ah-ha RD: Coming in. TR: Three main routes. RD: Yeah, well I think it was off of North Street, uh, and then, um… TR: Old Allegan? RD: Yeah, Old Allegan, and then, Old Allegan would come in and where the sign was. TR: Yeah RD: And then um… TR: So they actually did at times block off traffic? RD: Oh! Uh [Inaudible] yeah, There were so many people, there was gridlock. TR: Yeah. RD: And um… TR: We're talking about 60’s? RD: Yeah well, yes. In the sixties, early sixties and I’d even say late, you know, 59, 60, but whatever. Uh, and they had, I think it was Lyle Jones was the uh… TR: Jones, yes. RD: And there was another guy. TR: Police officer. RD: Yeah, yeah. And uh, they had help from Douglas and they had help from uh, um. TR: Yeah because our two police departments were separate. RD: That’s correct, yes and uh you know you see some of those pictures of those guys and they look like Andy Griffith, you know? It just is, yeah and um, so for some reason they were, there were no riots. You know there are couple of people, you know, some drunks were hauled off to Allegan uh, but um, I don't recall, first of all I was never involved in any kind of a fight but, um, there was just a lot of drinking. TR: Oh, I would imagine. A lot of pictures of all the bottles. RD: So uh, a couple uh, other places Terra was the restaurant it was owned by uh, Charlie Koning. And I think his brother the um, hardware store, that Wilkins had? You know? TR: Yeah. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda RD: And then they had the ladder that went across remember that? To, to get up on the top. TR: No, I don’t remember that. RD: And then they used to use sell nails by the pound, you know? TR: Yeah. RD: They had this one weighted, and then it was like a dumb waiter in the back. TR: Oh, yes. Yes. RD: I know I was down stairs but I have no idea what they had downstairs, they just had a whole bunch of, uh… TR: Yeah. RD: Whatever. And then um, there was a Holiday Hill. Which was right behind the Beach House and Harding’s, do you remember Harding’s? It used to be down um, right near where the uh, Root Beer Barrel originally was. TR: Did you happen to know Christa Wise? Her name wasn’t Wise then, because they owned the Holiday… RD: It was… TR: Yeah RD: Masters. TR: Yes, exactly. She, she talks a lot about it, and the burning? Do you remember the house burning? RD: Oh yeah, and um, I met Al Masters, uh, not formally but yeah and uh she married Wise of course, and uh, she did exceptionally well uh, the high school or in the school with her artistry and her… TR: Oh yes, we had a wonderful interview. I interviewed her. RD: Oh yeah, and um there were a lot of people do not want her to retire. TR: Oh absolutely. RD: And she just said well we, we need groom with people. Which I very think it’s good. TR: That’s the story of all our lives. I was just curious, if we kept going south into Douglas, uh Tower Marine. RD: Oh yeah. TR: The, the tower. I think I remember the tower. 7 �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda RD: Well there was the, well the water tower’s right where the Root Beer Barrel is right now. TR: Yeah. RD: And you could see that from Blue Star Highway coming up. TR: But I thought that there was just a tower that, I don’t know, a look-out type thing? Because that’s why they call it Tower Marine. I've seen pictures of it. RD: You know I… TR: But there was a big and its still, no it was torn down, there was a big like Quonset hut. RD: Yeah. TR: Strange building and there was talks about very ill proved things going on there, you can rent a room, uh. RD: You’re probably right. I don’t know all of… TR: [Inaudible] RD: Yeah, I didn't experience this. Well you know you can uh, talk about, um, the difference between Saugatuck, Douglas, and uh Holland. Holland thought Saugatuck was known as Sodom and Gomorrah. TR: Absolutely. RD: I mean it was just, uh, surprising how much of the Dutch would come down to Saugatuck. TR: Especially on Sunday. RD: On Sunday! Yeah right, after twelve, after twelve o'clock. What is now the uh, um, exit 41 the, what’s that gas station there that has all of the, is that Dunes View or something like that? TR: Yes. RD: Yeah, okay. Ah, but there was a lot going on there. Um, so for me at a very formative age uh. [00:20:08] TR: You didn't go to any concert, or jazz or the rock concerts? RD: They had some uh, right, right near… TR: That area. RD: Yeah, right across from Billy’s boat house [inaudible] and uh, after the Pavilion burned down there was supposed to be a big jazz festival going out there. TR: Oh they did have one? 8 �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 9 RD: Yeah, and I was not here. TR: Yeah. RD: [inaudible] before that actual jazz festival they used to have you know, Venetian night with the uh, arts and craft show and then the parade going up and down the uh, river and uh, you know those were great times. You know, you were just seeing people having just, enjoying the place and it was a lot less expensive than it is now. TR: Exactly. So yeah, what period, you went back obviously in the winter to be educated and graduate. RD: Yeah. TR: But you kept coming back summers after that. What point did your grandmother die? RD: She died in 64. TR: Okay. RD: And then, um, I was teaching school. TR: So you got a degree so you could teach? RD: Yeah, so I was teaching school, and then uh… TR: In Chicago area? RD: Uh, yes. Uh, Saint Joseph High School in West Chester. You know, just twenty-five dollars out of Chicago, so. Um, but I always said that I wanted to come back to uh, Saugatuck Douglas area. TR: Your family obviously still owned the cottage? RD: Yep, and I come up there. But as the family grew… TR: Yes. RD: …and everybody wanted…. TR: What date [inaudible] RD: You know, well you had last year, you had you know Fourth of July so this year, you know and on and you know, and then we had deals keeping the kids out after Labor Day because of school, that we’d leave and of course the traffic going back… TR: Oh yes [inaudible] RD: The skyway and things like that. Um, so uh, if I can fast forward a little here, um, let's see here. Well I made the decision that I was going to end up here. TR: Ah! �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 10 RD: That was, that was, that was that was known now. TR: You were graduated college and were teaching and you made that decision. RD: Oh yeah, yeah, and then so then I, so that’s like about 1970, 72, 73, this is, this is where I wanted to end up and you know I didn't have a job or anything like that. So I still had to be in the Chicago area but I kept on thinking and coming up, opening the cottage in early, early April or early May and then closing it in at the very last time in October or early November and uh, I even came up in the winter time. Couldn’t stay at the cottage because we drained the water. TR: Yeah. RD: Well we stayed at Timber Line Hotel and there were a couple others. So uh… TR: We, so you were married at that time? RD: Yes, I was married at that time uh, my wife and I are divorced in 90. So I wanted to figure out how I was going to get out here, so I had to figure out finances and all those things, so by 1996 my mother is getting old and I had promised her, now my dad died in 1970. So I promised her she would never end up in a nursing home. So I decided to buy Joe Borscht’s house in, right next to Naught Marine and then I trained, licensed that has an assisted living home for adults, and it was license for six people. And my mother was one of those and there were several other people, and I was right there on Wades Bayou, beautiful view. TR: Is that the one with a swimming pool or across the road? RD: No, if if you go down right where the kayaks now are being, um. TR: Yeah. Oh! Okay, there, alright. RD: And uh, her bedroom looked out on the water and she loved it and so she was there from 97 to October of 2006 she passed away, 2000, 2000 she passed away and then uh, there were other people there and uh, by 2003 um, I just, was burned out doing that kind of work. [00:25:06] TR: I bet. RD: I loved it when a great spiritual experience, but it was time to move on and… TR: You were there alone? You had divorced or your family wasn’t? You were there alone? RD: Uh no, I, uh well, my sister and her husband had worked there for a while little. TR: Okay. RD: And uh, then, I met um, Mary Bud in October 2005, I met her at a talk over at uh, Mothers Trust and uh, then we started dating and uh, we got married in uh, 2006 and um, so we now live in Fennville but I had sold the property and um, I started the recycling thing in Fennville and uh, but if you want to focus on Saugatuck �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 11 TR: No, that’s, that’s why they’re. You now live sort of at the edge of the Fennville winery so that can be. RD: Oh yeah we live right behind, well you know. TR: Yeah. RD: Right behind uh, Fenn Valley and then there’s Virtue Farm and then there’s going to be two more right down the [laughing, inaudible] TR: That’s within the bailiwick of our Saugatuck Douglas… RD: Oh yeah, it’s um, there’s, it’s very fertile for grapes and uh, apples, and you got Cranes down there doing the hard cider, and uh, there's just a lot of, um, entrepreneurs around the idea of wine. TR: Yeah. RD: Or hard cider. Um, let me just take a look, look here um, couple other things, the Lloyd J Harris Pie factory? TR: Yeah? RD: That is now the Chicago, the Saugatuck Center for the Arts, and um, he was very successful, uh, in, in that. Um, Frank Dennison property which is… TR: Did you get to know that? RD: I saw him. I was out there, at where Skip Dennison’s property is. TR: Yep. RD: We would go through the old uh, camp trail roads and stuff like that. TR: Yep. RD: I don’t even know the names of the, those roads or stuff like that but, uh… TR: It was the Dugout Road, yeah. [Inaudible] unofficial name. RD: And if you, you know moved over at foot TR: Yeah RD: You’re going to go down in to the Kalamazoo River. Grace Capaletti’s place was there. TR: Yes. RD: Couple others I think. TR: Right, our right friends had that old um, Kalamazoo block house. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 12 RD: Oh yeah? TR: I tried to buy it, banks wouldn’t loan me money. But uh, yes did you ever, were you able to, uh, hike all the way on the North side? Maybe that was out of your bailiwick? RD: Uh, yeah I would, I can’t remember the name of the camp ground, Pine? TR: Yeah. Pine Creek, RD: Pine Creek. Yeah I’ve walked all the way with a couple of my daughters we would walk all the way out to the, North? TR: Beach? RD: Part of the channel, you know, so. TR: I did too and that’s why I would go past, they were building the boats. RD: Oh yeah. TR: But then they, they fenced it in, and they wanted you not to go past. RD: That's right, yeah, but there were some very expensive boats… TR: Yes. RD: That were built there, and a couple of movie stars had… TR: I knew some of the people that are doing some of the interiors. RD: Yeah. TR: Materials. RD: Oh yeah, it was, yeah, and because the boats were made of fiberglass and they were very volatile and you had a lot of uh, chemicals around and that's, you know, that was a disaster, when it burnt down you know. That was uh, we had gone out there in a canoe to see the wreckage and stuff like that, so um, yeah that was uh, a uh, big thing. Of course Frank Dennison and uh, RJ Peterson were good friends but they fought a lot, they were good friends and fought a lot. TR: They always, always, yes. I used to cross country ski through that area. The, did you ever own a boat? RD: Not a big boat. TR: No. RD: Just a… TR: Roundabout. Yeah �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 13 RD: Just a 15 horse um, 17ft fishing boat and stuff like that, and that was a lot of fun. TR: Sure. RD: Just going up and down the Kalamazoo River and uh… TR: Were you a fisherman or anything like that? RD: Oh, I fished a little but not that. When I was younger I caddied on the West shore Golf, uh, and uh, I knew uh, Carl Wicks and his son Paul and um, we, we caddied. [00:30:04] TR: Yes. RD: A couple other guys, I can't remember their names. Um, people come up from Chicago, they needed a caddy and, I think they had a couple golf carts there but not uh, most them had the, the ones that you pushed. TR: Oh, yes. Yeah, get a little bit more exercise. RD: Yeah, so um, but it was, it was it was always fun, and uh, I remember they were, at one time, now this is just a rumor but, you know. They were going to make it an exclusive 9 hole golf course and then with just a couple of key properties around there. TR: Yeah. RD: And then there was a guy by the name of Mcveigh, Bill Mcveigh, and he was in real estate and stuff like that and he was in uh, he has since passed away, and he had talked to Carl and you know, just batted around ideas and stuff like that, but um, and now it’s no longer a golf course. TR: Nope, and it became the houses. RD: Yeah, and um, I don't know what they're going to do with what was the main part of, you, all the hill and stuff like that. TR: Yeah, well there are houses being built, uh, on some of those peninsulas but nothing in the lower area that would flood, or. RD: Well you’d have to get roads, um, let me see what else I’ve got here. [Pause] The uh, the attitude I want to fully convey is, I just didn’t want to live anywhere else. TR: I know. RD: I, I, I don’t know how else to explain that and I love the upper peninsula, we’re going there in a week, uh, we’ve walked the bridge, we’ve been to Lake Superior, and it’s beautiful, um but there is just something about this area. The artists, the sense of generosity, the sense of uh, fundraising a particular cause and, and, you know, if somebody has cancer, somebody needs this, and you know boom, there's a cookout, there a Church’s get together, you know I… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 14 TR: And that’s one of the questions there, how has it changed good, for the good, for the bad? But you’re sort of implying some things there, yeah. RD: Well… TR: That quality it's still there that you just described… RD: Yeah, it's uh first of all, it's, it’s a lot more expensive. TR: Yes, but everywhere almost? RD: That’s right. No, no, and yeah that’s right, that’s right. TR: But not quite. RD: Yeah. When I see cottages that are, uh, you know somebody would buy the land of the cottage, and knock the cottage down and built something that, in my mind just didn’t fit in there, and uh, so that was a uh, you know that part I wish didn’t change but, you know as you get older you have nostalgia. TR: As we said the Native Americans that were here, when Butler came probably said the same thing. Hey it’s not the same. They don’t build like we do. RD: That’s right, and he ended up right on the mouth of the river, and he got down here and where the pavilion is and of course I don’t, you know remember everything like the Wildcat Bank or Singapore, or… TR: No. Age wise, because you’re the identical same age to me. RD: Yeah, well some of the things when they say, its Fishtown. Well is it over here, or is it over here, wait a minute I thought it was, you know and then if you did certain real gaping down there, which I don’t think you can do now, you would probably find piling and stuff like that and… TR: It amazed me how fast that they did the channel at the turn of that century, how fast the, uh, channel filled up. RD: That’s right. TR: It became a lake, I mean that’s just amazing, with the prevailing westerlies with the sand you know? RD: One of the things that uh, um, amazed me is when I went to somebody on the Tourism Bureau and just uh, you know, I knew the reason that Oxbow was the way it was, the channel used to come in here and the pilings and I said, do you know why they call it an Ox bow? And I was just, you know, and the person said no and well it was the Ox bow bend in the river, and if you go there where Oxbow is, now the Art Colony, um, that’s a beautiful area and the sun coming over and stuff like that, the sunsets. But there’s still the pilings there. TR: Sure. RD: And, um, because of the sand and the wind and like that, it’s not a very deep uh… TR: No. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 15 [00:35:00] RD: Lagoon? Or if you want to call it that, and then as you go north there, there's that big sand pile right where they dock a lot of boats there. TR: That’s the basin. RD: Yeah, and uh, and I know RJ Peterson keeps on talking about we got to keep on dredging that, uh, river because of all the damns starting again at the other part of the Kalamazoo River and the silt and stuff like that. TR: Yeah, well a lot of it if from the farming. RD: Yeah. TR: Communities that… RD: That’s right. TR: You know they don’t practice things and it, the erosion. RD: That’s correct. TR: And the chemicals that can come with it. RD: That’s right. TR: But, it [long pause] physically I think we should describing the geography of the area so interesting. I can't imagine not being pleasurable forever and ever. RD: My wife and I have made contributions to the group trying to save, you know, where Padnos and… TR: Yes. RD: Others, and were very glad, and we’ve we, we knew Patty Birkholz. TR: Yeah RD: She was very instrumental on the south side. TR: Sure. RD: To get that. But once you build homes there, it is going to change the thing no matter what. I mean, pollution… TR: And, and they uh Presbyterian Camp is now a gated community. RD: That’s right. TR: They will be gated communities, that’s… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 16 RD: That’s exactly right. And, and how do you, you know, you know we have certain freedoms but somethings need to be preserved. Some things are sacred land, Native American. TR: Sure. RD: This is where our ancestors are buried, you can’t put the railroad track through [coughs] To the white man said, wait a minute we’re here to put this thing here and we don’t believe in that kind of stuff but the Native Americans said our great great great grandparents are here and so we need to do something about that. Um… TR: And I don’t, I think you’re pointing out that change is inevitable, but controlled change and all that. You know, we always talk about the 1%, that 1% will get what they want and they find this fascinating, and there’s even talk now that they’re going to be buying slips and combining them, because they, Travis Randolph was saying, they want to bring bigger boats in, to dock them. RD: Yeah, that’s right. TR: Will that, will those like you, just that contribute to the area, not only buying things, but will they support the historical society and all these things? RD: You know, change in it is inevitable but that doesn’t mean that its progress. TR: Yeah, yes. RD: You could say you know, were changing this, but that might not be progress. You know, and um… TR: You know coming from big cities I hated when we started doing condos. RD: Yeah. TR: Saying, we’re going to be condo-ed out of, you know we have to some degree. RD: Well I think when you look at that one condo part, um as you’re going north right before the bridge and the 7-11. TR: Yes. RD: That never took off, or… TR: Yeah! Why not? Financing or what. I think it started back up again. RD: Is it? TR: Yeah. They got a sign saying they’ll be selling, because there’s a foundations, but they had a view. These other condos really don’t. RD: That’s right. Terra is now condos. TR: Yes. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 17 RD: And it used to be, well then Overeisel sold, sold out. TR: Yes. RD: To TR: Yes. RD: To the, the place there, and there’s only a certain number of people that get to see a sliver of the Kalamazoo, Lake Kalamazoo and the river. And uh, a lot of those, I don't know how many, are, empty during uh, like from December/January… TR: Sure. RD: To like March, and you know Florida is suffering from from there and like from the. Juniors your room and you know Florida is suffering from over building, and you know…. TR: Yes. RD: Flooding and we ought to learn something about that. TR: Yes, see that was my argument, yeah. RD: How do your, your children and your, your wife, and your second wife’s children feel about the area? RD: Well, it was uh, in selling the cottage to the um… TR: The family. RD: Yeah, the family um, it now that they’re grown, they live all over. D.C., Cincinnati, Dallas, Chicago uh, they do come up and visit us and they go over there but they've even mentioned, it's it's not the same. TR: Uh huh. That being? [00:40:00] RD: Well they used to run up uh, the sand, at uh, Mount Baldy and then run down the other side and go to the beach, just what I did. TR: Yeah, well they can still do that. RD: Yes, you can, uh, I don't think I can, but it was uh, and then there were, you could buy popcorn over at the drug store, for a dime. TR: Yeah. RD: And those days are gone. You know and, and then um, they used to call it the Saugatuck Schlepping and Caulking, you got and ice cream cone… �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 18 TR: Ah. RD: and you, you’d walk in there but there were signs, no food, so you’d look in the window, and whether it be fashion or the whatever it is, [Inaudible] and there was a certain thing, and, and, and everybody did it. You know they’d be walking by… TR: Yep. RD: Now, I don’t think that would go in our house. You know our [laughs] TR: Yeah widow, window shopping. RD: Yeah, window shopping uh… TR: Unfortunately sometimes I see a plate and I have this joke, ill and annoy? Illinois? Ill and annoy because they window shop their air conditioned car. RD: Oh yeah. TR: And I always go around to get to North Butler Street. RD: Oh yeah. TR: But you, you see the few young families that there’s still an appeal the young families. RD: That’s right. TR: From what I understand that happened a lot in our area, you know that maybe you were a motorcycle person or something like that, but you know raised hell but you got married, had children and you remembered this area, and you came back and rented places and maybe bought or built. So, there’s still an appeal. RD: The appeal is, something that I read about, why the Antique Road Show on PBS. TR: Yep. RD: A lot of people watch it. TR: Yes. RD: The remember when. I remember this, I remember the old uh, gas stations and the pumps and uh, I brought um, one of my grandsons to the Gilmore um… TR: Car Museum. RD: Car Museum and you know he, he, we had a picture of pumping gas you know this and he rode around in a 31 Cadillac and stuff. But, there's a lot of people there the day we were there, some people there saying, I remember that and I remember this… TR: Yeah. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 19 RD: And all the various cars. Um, there's this nostalgia that yes, we want change but we don't know how to get that balance to keep change and… TR: Preservation. RD: Preservation, yes, and how do you do that. TR: Hopefully as a society or whatever we call ourselves then, can provide tools that help people, because if we document, and that’s what we’re doing right now, documenting and, and saying well they feel that way, but yeah if you don’t do it, just unfortunately the bottom line people will come in and um, buy, sell, and… RD: That’s right. TR: With little concern for the future. RD: Yeah, I don't know what else to, to do to stop progress, because I don't own the town or anything like that and I'd love to have people look at this, look at the old structures and the fact that they kept this school building and uh, obviously put in better lights, cleaned it up on the inside. Uh, and we saved a lot of the pictures. I don’t know how to get that balance. TR: Yeah, yeah. [Inaudible]. No, if, if you really knew how you could be making money or you could be the chief of something. But, yes. RD: Well people that go to these historic places likes Williamsburg, you know they have this, and you go to, uh, Fort Michilimackinac and you see them shooting the guns and uh, this is how you dressed in there and this is how it was such a strategic place for the French, you know with the Straights and you had the big boats. My wife and I walked the bridge several times, you can see if the suns just right how the straights, um, they’re not that big. TR: Yes. RD: I mean the shore. TR: And all the shipwrecks that we have. RD: That’s right. TR: Exactly. Yeah, I think, it’s sort of a belling that we, we were isolated enough that the railroad didn't come through here, it went through Fennville. Because if the railroad came would be a Holland or, or well Fennville hasn’t grown that much but uh, yeah. [00:45:01] RD: But they don’t have the, they don't stop there anymore. TR: Yeah, no, no. But I, I, like you, because I was designing for Herman Miller and Travis Randolph, they had the renters, you know had a place here, said, you don’t want to buy in Holland, come down here �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 20 and I said wow. I have to be by the water, the said, I can, I can be alone, I can be with people it was perfect. Not, not a lot of traffic except for the summer. RD: Yeah. TR: It, I had the same feelings. Uh, and, and I just hope that whatever we do we will destroy that. That younger people will have that same feeling. And when my relatives come, with their young, you my nieces and nephew, gran niece and nephew they just love it here and the come back every year. RD: When you see, you go down to pier cove and there’s that historical sign, you know. TR: Yeah. RD: They got all the lumber here, and then they supplied the Chicago Fire and then all of a sudden the lumber ran out. Well, you ought to read that certain things are going to run out if you… TR: Yep. RD: If you cut them all down. TR: Yep. RD: Or if you dam them all up, or if you… TR: They planted the fruit trees and they had the frost but they replanted them, things will evolve, who knows. RD: The other things is, and this is, [laughs] you go throughout the winter, and there are four seasons, but winter. TR: It’s just dominant. RD: [Laughing]. When spring happens, you… TR: Poof. RD: You’re just like… TR: Yeah. RD: Oh! We’ve made it. You know, and then you got the asparagus, strawberries… TR: Yep. RD: You got this run of fruit and you know people that are growing these things and now there’s this big movement toward uh, sustainable living and, organic uh food, and grass fed cows and free range chickens and stuff like that. And it’s really happening. TR: Yep. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 21 RD: And, and again, look at the art galleries, look at the, the stuff here and you know, it's great. I love it. TR: I just wonder about what slice of society will still be enjoying this. Are we going to be more towards that one percent? Or, someone always has to be the waiter or the, know construction person, but you know, you wonder how people can have that experience like you did your little cottage and, and that, you know maybe somewhere else, uh, I don't know. But yeah, yeah. So, it's keeping you here, you stay the whole winter? RD: Oh yes. TR: Yeah. RD: Yes, yeah. We, uh we are, we're here all the time. I mean we go short… TR: Yeah. Like we do. RD: Trips, especially. Well we just came back from Pennsylvania. But um, the northern part, we go to a lot of these art and craft shows. TR: Ah. RD: Charlevoix, Traverse City, uh, and they’re very crowded but we know how to, where to, where to go and uh, the UP and uh, we’ve been to Drummond Island, we’ve been to uh, the Legenois, we have Copper Harbor is on our bucket list, we haven’t been there. TR: Ah, I’ve spent some time there yeah. RD: And uh, we uh, some people say, you get a lot of snow there in the winter and we say, yeah we do. TR: Not like Copper Harbor. RD: But them, well what do you do? And its, well I shovel this off, and we hire a guy to clear out our driveway and uh, you know, we know how to drive during winter. We got a four wheel, uh, four wheel drive vehicle and that, that does it. TR: We read, we know I finally try to clean the basement [Laughs] and do all those fixing things. RD: We, we love it, and so. TR: Yeah, yeah I get so tired of airlines and all that uh, hassle and the money that you know, I did when I was younger and had I companies I worked for, I’m just happen to be here. RD: That’s right. TR: And now, you know now we have a choice of so many more stores in Holland. I mean we don't have to go to Grand Rapids or Chicago and the internet can get almost you anything. RD: You got it. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 22 RD: UPS, so. It’s, yeah, it works out. I just hope that the uh, what they, you know the Hayworth plant that something will happen with that, that might provide some jobs or something like that, but still got a pollution factor there with the… RD: Yeah, the tannery was right. TR: Yeah, well no, the metal works. RD: The metal yeah. TR: The cleaning metals and the salt that they used go in the soil, the yeah, I uh, well if you thinking you’ve thought of enough things, uh? RD: Do you have any other questions? TR: No, I, I think that they intention was, was to, you know, basically give you background which you did, and why you’re here, and still here and what, what your impression of what the future might be and I think you did that all, so, yeah. I learned a lot about you too, I didn't know, you sort of told me that connection those little cottage, cottages. You know, after this I’ll write down that address I can go see the cottage. RD: 840. TR: 840. RD: 840 River road, or no, 840 Park. TR: Yeah. RD: And then the names still on there. TR: Ah, I, I might remember that because I thought that was, I said that’s, that sounds familiar. RD: Yeah, and uh, it’s well the, there’s, there’s one, so there’s one, two, three… TR: Is the the parcel big enough that someone could tear it down and build something bigger? RD: My cousin's son, kept the structure and he went out back TR: Ah, so he did add on. RD: Yes, he did, it, it looks the same. TR: Okay. RD: And it was limited, you know? TR: Well yeah, because they were very small. �Ray Diffenderffer - Interviewed by Ted Reyda 23 RD: Oh yeah. Well they were cottages, they, they weren’t thinking uh, condos or they weren’t thinking, yeah. TR: What people think, you know roughing it now is, is, marble or granite tops and all the conveniences, it’s like, hello? RD: But, we did not have a phone in the cottage for a long time. We did not have a microwave, we never had a television. We didn’t want, why are you staying inside? TR: Christa Wise said the same thing. RD: Why do you want to say in the, I mean, get out there! You know? Get down to the beach, get over here. TR: The difference now is these kids are connected by these devices, they have this need to be connected and it’s like, enjoy! Yeah. Hopefully they will. Well I think we’ll. [00:52:56] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-DiffenderfferR-20181002 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diffenderfer, Ray Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-02 Title A name given to the resource Ray Diffenderfer (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Ray Diffenderfer's grandparents were among the first to own land near Mt. Baldhead, where they built a cottage in the early 1920s. In this article, Ray reminisces about spending summers of his youth at the cottage and swimming at the beach in the 1950s and 1960s. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reyda, Ted (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/015c6310fb69f771716e4cfebfec1b3a.MP3 5de30092c966ab3e3edcab11d105c9f8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dbba063ac53c3e26dbec59161701d92.pdf 72892a941b3c61852f5a2ca985a4d895 PDF Text Text Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 1 Ken Kutzel: Okay. This is Ken Kutzel, I’m here today with Neil Atherton at the old schoolhouse in Douglas Michigan on uh, July 27th 2018. This oral history is being collected as a part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowments for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today, I’m interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it? Neil Atherton: Good morning, my full name is Neil D Atherton N E I L, D, A T H E R T O N. KK: And then do you use any accents when spelling your name? NA: No. KK: Okay. Alright uh, Neil uh, tell me about where you grew up? NA: [clears throat] I grew up in Illinois and, in the Milwaukee area and then uh, came to the Saugatuck area to open up a store in 1982, and had the store Hoopdee Scootee for a number of years and then closed the store um, Labor Day of 2016. KK: Okay, and what are some what are some of the most vivid memories you have of um, your time here? NA: Uh, the vivid memories are is that we started a a business with not a lot of money and we thought we would come to this town and do some things that were creative and a little bit different and being kind of a snug little fishing village way back then, um, we bought a property on Mason Street at 133 Mason from Linda Holmes who was a owner of several properties here and in the real estate business um, her shop was full of bomb boxes and brass and a lot of nautical goods and we decided that we wanted to not sell that, and wanted to something a little bit on the crazy way out side. So, we decided that seeing as we were on a side street that we needed to get attention for someone to come off of Butler to Mason, so we came up with, or actually my partner Jim Yarro came up with, mannequin legs which we extended from the second floor of the building and it which became an identification direction for many people that visited this destination store over the years. Um, from that we opened up the store, and uh Linda because we did not have a lot of money, uh, gave us 30, 30 cents on the dollar. So we sold bomb boxes and we sold anchors and we sold a lot of things we didn’t care to sell and then, we decided to start bringing in some Flamingos, which really didn’t fit in Saugatuck but it created a lot of verbal conversation. From that, we bought boxes of flamingo feathers, actually turkey feathers from Philadelphia that were died hot pink, and we used that as an attention getter to put feathers all over our store. Needless to say, we became very popular and a lot conversation throughout the community because in the winter months people would pick up the feathers on their boots, walk outside in the in snow and where you’d go in different places you’d always see pink feathers in the snow banks which was free advertising and people asked where they were from. That became, became our journey uh, Hoopdee Scootee was and became a destination store for many many people and our, our, um most recognized uh, reputation was uh, unique, different, and if we did anything we not only sold a lot of things, but we sold laughter and laughter became our identity. So, when people would come to town and say, we have to go to that store it’s the one with the legs, we gotta, it’s just crazy. Come in, the music’s loud but its fun and we used to have people stand in line to come into our store, we had a doorman and at one time we were up to 12 employees, um, its was great place for people to buy cards �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 2 and clothing and gifts. We even went into adult gag gifts um, but I would say the, the greatest thing about Hoopdee Scootee is that we always had product that nobody else had that was creative and different and that brought people in and exposed them to other things other than anchors and little, uh nautical town which is great, but we wanted to be a little bit different. KK: Okay, great. Um, why exactly did you choose Saugatuck? NA: By accident. Um, we both my partner Jim Yarro and myself lived in Chicago in downtown Chicago and I was a Vice President of Chicago Display Company and uh, the display company lost a major uh, account which was my responsibility, Im not going to take responsibility for losing the account but, we lost an account and I was not affordable to the company and being not only a Vice President there, I was also asked by the President of the company who I knew on a personal basis, if I would not resign but consider looking for a different position. So, we walked out and went to the Lake Michigan shores and sat there and Jim said to me, ‘What do you want to do?’ and I said, ‘You know I’ve always wanted to open up a gift store’ and I have a good education and uh, some degrees and I said, ‘I don’t know if I can do that, I think I should be going into the corporate world again’ and he said, ‘Well what would you like to do? I said, ‘I really would like to do this’ so he says, ‘I know of a town called Saugatuck that’s a resort town that we could go to’ and we came to Saugatuck, and we found out there was a place called the Douglas Dunes and we went to the Douglas Dunes and we spent the evening and walked around town and Linda Holmes showed us her building that was, that we leased with the option to buy and after being here 1 year, uh, we did buy the building from Linda and Hoopdee Scootee was off and running. KK: Okay, great. Um, what was your first impression of the area? NA: Well like anybody else there’s not much not to like here. Um, the ambiance of it, the quaintness of the town, um, and every small town everybody knows your secret before you do so therefore you got to be used to that. But other than that, it’s a it’s a destination town for people to enjoy life and this town certainly has all that to offer. KK: Good! Can you share any particular memories about living here? NA: Memories of living here, when we first got here there, we used to um, Marro’s and Linda and some of us we wanted fireworks and so we took jars and we wrapped them with paper and said ‘Fireworks Fund’ and we passed them out to everybody in town [clears throat] and some of the people in town donated more than other and we came up with enough money to have fireworks, better then what they had in the past. Then we promoted and went on the, the uh Venetian Weekend and got involved with so many things of people competing with boats and making that a celebration, another reason for people to come for a good time, um. We were very much involved in the Red Barn and for their 25th anniversary um, I, with Kyle, uh and Loretta created a birthday party celebration for their 50th anniversary and I collected some favors from the restaurants and everybody in town and asked if they would donate food, and prizes and we would have a fundraiser to buy new seats and air conditioning for the Red Barn, and on the 16th which was February, which was a June 15th we had a big party at the Red Barn the only problem was is that a lot of people had left and gone home for the weekend and we weren’t sure if we were going to have a successful event. As a result it was more than successful, people stayed over, we raised lots of money and the Red Barn benefited by a lot of hard effort from a lot of people. KK: Great, um, were there any places, restaurants or institutions that uh were kind of special to you? �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 3 NA: Yeah. Marro’s. And I will tell you why, not only was the food good and not only are they friends but I have friends that have restaurants that I’m not mentioning for no other reason but to answer this question. Marro’s was next door to us and a lot of people would come to our store and shop and look for cards and the rest and we were going to do a PA system into this thing to call Lynn and say, you know call us when their reservation is ready because they’re shopping in the store and I don’t want to lose the sale. So we worked off of their crowds and as a result, because of Marro’s they really helped our business to grow. KK: Yeah, well that’s, kind of when businesses can work together like that… NA: …True, true, true story. KK: Yeah, I believe you, I am, listen and remember your store, I spent a lot of money there. NA: Yeah, that’s why I could close and go to Florida. KK: Maybe at this point it would be uh, um, I’m going to ask you, would you please tell us the story about when the Hoopdee Scootee legs were stolen? [10:26] NA: Yeah I don’t remember the exact year but I know that I was um, the, the legs were, were very well known because they always put a smile on people’s faces and when the bus tours would come through they’d always come back, back to the store and they would take pictures, hang out the window and they would point to the legs if the Duck Boat was going around and ‘This is a destination of you haven’t been there’ but the legs became and identification to um, not only promoting our store but kind of for the town. Um, it’d be a little difficult probably today to do that, we didn’t get permission to put them out there, back then we didn’t need it and so we just hung these mannequin legs out and there was a time when, um women’s groups were really offended and against that because they were women’s legs and they wanted us to put men’s legs out there if we were going to have women’s legs. We had people picketing in front saying it wasn’t, uh, supposed to be up, that isn’t the rule of the town. So, we had to, to fight some adversity and not that we won, we were able to keep them up there for all these years. The legs, um, were stolen, and we weren't even aware of the fact until I was out in front of the store and some customer walked by and said, where your legs? I said, what do you mean? I looked up and I said, you know what, I have no idea. So I went in, I talked to Jim and Laura and they said no, and I said, you know what, I’m, I’m going to call a television station, because these legs are the identification to the town, and I'm also going to call the police department and let them know that something was stolen. And in the antrum thing, being a pretty much of a promotion guy and great part of my blood and thinking, I thought, I don't want to get the police here too soon without the television station being here. So I waited for the Kalamazoo television station, which is, it's left my name… KK: Yeah, its channel 17 I think. NA: Yes, and uh, I called them and told them, they said we'll be right down. So when they got there, I called the police. They were making the report and I asked the uh, young lady, if she would mind going up and sitting in the window where the legs were with her legs out and giving the newscast. And we were, we were lucky enough to get over six minutes on primetime TV at six o'clock, which I could never even afford to do, and it was a great discussion about the loss of the legs. Well, we offered a, a uh, �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 4 thousand, or I think it was $1500, something. A hoard of money for, for it and it was on the television quite a bit and it was talked about, it was quite the hub. Well, just so happens that um, one of the people in town that was uh, uh a regular, um, had swiped the legs as a joke and it got to be a little bit nervous for him because it started to get to be a big deal and now he didn't want any part of it. So he took the legs and threw them in the dumpster at Roly Peterson's yacht club at the north end of town. And when we found that out, um, I decided that I would call the channel to come down and write a story on them returning and I called the police department, they said, well, you can go and pick them up and I said I'm not picking these up, I need somebody to go over there, and so they did. And the policemen department was always good to us, always. They were always there when we needed them and they were our right hand of security in Saugatuck. And so, um, the guys came over to the store opened up the trunk, the legs were in the trunk, the, the television station was there, they got a picture of the legs. I had to back the car up so they get a picture of our name Hoopdee Scootee again and we were on television again. Then Labor Day weekend, Connie Chung, I believe, had a news thing and something to the order of concluding it with on a, uh, on a, on a lower, had something to the effect that with the legs being taken, she used it for part of her commentary. So she said, and on a lighter note to conclude the Memorial Day weekend, this is not the exact copy, but this is what I remember. Um, a, a small town in, in Saugatuck, Michigan, one of the stores have mannequin legs that were stolen and it was just kind of a kinky thing to bring up to, to end the weekend. So we not only got publicity from the television stations, we've got on national TV. My son in California called and said, geez Dad, I just saw your, your stuff on television. So that's how we began, it was a great store. It was a store where, um, uh, if you couldn't get a smile on your face, you were either having a bad day or you were crabby. [00:15:52] KK: Okay. You mentioned to me once before, uh, along with that story that the mannequin legs were somewhat damaged? NA: Yes. KK: Okay, so do you want to tell about that please? NA: Yeah, the, the legs had been damaged and there was, I don't know if it's still existing, but at that time the only mannequin repair place was in Michigan. So we sent the legs off to them and they repaired them and then they went back up. Every year she had a different outfit on, some years she was in gowns and tops. Other years she was in combat boots. It was a visual that you, as a result, people would come by to see what she had on the following year. Um, great promo, but a great thing for the city because, uh, at that as well put on smiles, on people's faces, just like the store did. KK: Okay, thank you. Uh, Neil, uh, did you have any contact with people from Oxbow? NA: Yes. KK: Okay, can you talk about that a little bit? NA: Um, Oxbow, Joyce Petter was one of the first people that I really meant when we came to town and she had beautiful galleries and she had beautiful um, art, and the more I researched and looked into it, I found out that Saugatuck is really a well-known and, um, superior, art town with many galleries and lots of creative input. Um, I lived in Milwaukee and I was at one time there, one of the chairs for the �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 5 Milwaukee Arts Festival. So I had had a, had a background um, in the arts and fundraising and the rest and um, pursued a number of different ways to promote art in the area. Um, attended the Oxbow celebrations, where, um, local artists and students were able to put their art on for sale and the local people and others who came, we'd buy it as a fundraiser. KK: Okay, great. Um, let's see uh, and this is going to be LGBT related because this is part of what we're doing uh, with the summer thing. NA: Okay. KK: Uh, well let's see well, well we talked about your first impressions of the area. Uh, were you aware when you moved here that the Saugatuck area was somewhat welcoming of the LGBT community at a time when other places we're not? NA: Absolutely. KK: Or, was it really at that time? NA: It was. KK: Okay. NA: And we knew of, of that and um, being a gay man with a partner, uh, I will not say I moved here because of the gay community, but it's certainly made our life a lot easier because um, of the fact that we were a gay couple. We had some problems in the beginning with those that either didn't understand or didn't want to understand and that was okay because, um, when you're a straight person in life and you don't choose to be gay, but you face the reality that you are, you then become a minority. And it's real tough when you like who you are and now you're a minority and then what you have to do is you get past all that. Well this town created that, where you didn't feel like a minority here. You were, you were a part of the community. We had people coming in from all, they drop off flowers, they’d bring in fish. It was like owning a student union and we had one lady uh, in town that had a difficult time with us being here. And uh, her name was Gladys Column and she owned stores, or she was an elderly lady, very nice, and she was next door. And whenever there were cigarette butts on the street or things that weren't right, she would come over and yell in our door and throw the cigarette butts in because we were a gay couple and she didn't want us to live there and say, oh, Gladys, now you need to take your medication, and we were always there to help her even though she was angry. So, um, Saugatuck is a town for everybody. Um, but it's a great place for, um, gay couples to be welcomed in to this city as today they are in most anywhere in the United States. [00:20:21] KK: Okay. What made uh, Saugatuck Douglas different from the other lakeshore communities? �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 6 NA: [Pause] It was small. Um, had really good history. Um, had great feelings when you were here because you had probably the number one beach in the whole United States. We've won lots of awards for that. Um, and the comfortability of meeting other gay people at that time, which wasn't as always so easy in other places. So, um, yeah, I would say that's the reason. KK: Great, uh, what were the local destinations for the LBGT community? Remember, we're going back, you know. NA: What were the local? KK: Yeah the destinations, where did they hangout? NA: Um, Douglas Dunes. It was the, it was the largest gay resort in the Midwest. Um, it was clean. It was classy. Uh, it, it represented the gay community and eliminated some of the stigmas of negative because it was a very positive, um, environment. It was well accepted, not totally, but within this community because Saugatuck being in the arts and having so much, uh, so many um, artistic, uh, places to go if they're not art galleries. But of courses you can take and, and creative people. And there's a lot of very educated, um, men and women that have had major jobs in this country who are very bright, who come here to live for the luxury of not only the visual of being here, but being in a community where there are other creative gay people and men with common denominators. I'm not saying this whole town is gay because it isn't. It's a town for everybody. KK: Okay, great. Uh, destinations that were uh, you know, LGBT friendly, what was it and where the advertised is LGBT friendly? NA: No, not to my knowledge. I mean, you don't have to, I'm a big person on not throwing something in somebody else's space. As they learn about the people here, then they become comfortable because of the people. KK: Great. Thank you. Um, be, um, well, I think you answered this, but I'm going to ask it any way. Beneath the surface, was Saugatuck Douglas accepting of the LGBT community and why or why not? NA: It, for myself, very much so. KK: Okay. NA: Um, there was one point in my life where I was, uh, I'm going to promote, uh, a weekend and I learned to do it when we did the parade for 4th of July. And I came up with a theme, Saugatuck makes me happy. And the idea was that whether you are gay, straight, little, big old or whatever, whatever makes you happy about Saugatuck dress up and be yourself. And there were some negatives because they said it was too much of a gay theme. And it became quite a conversation piece in town where some of the um, locals objected to it and some of the locals were in favor of it. And, um, I remember people getting up from the Council board and walking out and I thought, you know, what am I doing here? So I politely backed off because I had only been here for a short time. I didn't want to create any problems �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 7 for the city or for ourselves. And we decided to let it go. Other than that, we never had any, any confrontation. And as the time has gone on and where we are in 2018, um, there's a major comfortability factor for anybody to be here, gay or straight or whatever. KK: Okay, great. You don't have any memory of the blue tempo. You came here after that, didnt you? NA: Right. KK: Okay. So that we don't need to go there. And um, how would you describe Saugatuck Douglas to somebody who's never been here, and I know you've touched on that, so. NA: Well with the hub and the franchises an America and, and the texting and no one knows what a tree fort is. Nobody knows what it is to go fishing. Know what it is to take a walk in the woods. You don't know what it's to be on the beach. And I'm not saying I'm making this as a generalization, but today's society has changed and Saugatuck has all that and it's a great escape from a lot of things in life, stress and other things because you can come here and just enjoy life and all the god given things that we are able to, to uh, appreciate. Um, that's what I think Saugatuck is. I think that's why Saugatuck has been here for all the years. I think that's why it has survived the rollercoaster ups and downs of our country. And I know that it will survive just as long as it's been here for generations to come. That is my feeling. And I think that if you ask people, you would probably get about a 95%. Right. [00:25:48] Kk: Okay, uh, in what ways has the area changed over the time that you've been coming here? NA: Are’s changed in a number of ways. Because you know, people have opinions. And, um, if I were to uh, say that I came to Saugatuck, um, to, uh, be supported by a small town, um, that would be an unfair statement because you, you have a base and there are only so many people that can support you and if you're going to have a successful business, you need support from other parts of the United States, from Saint Louis, from Detroit, from Chicago, from Indianapolis, from northern Michigan. And that was our base. That was where we were bringing people in. And in the beginning we had the boat races and we had a lot of wealthy young, successful people coming to this town and they had dollars to spend. As time went on, generations changed the boat people weren’t coming. We had um, a time when motorcycles were big from Harley Davidson. And then there was a big push to bring families. It's a great family town. But today coming back, I see more families in Saugatuck than I ever have before. I think that that's great for the city as a retailer, I think its okay, because we need all denominations. Those with a lot of money to spend those with some money to spend. And those that don't want to spend any money. But I've seen the curve going towards more of a family directed city than it was when we first got here, and were in business. That's, that's really true. KK: And, was Hoopdee Scootee open all year? NA: No, we were open from April until Christmas. �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 8 KK: Oh, okay. NA: Um, and our business was strong and struck, was the strongest, um, in the summer months. We tried the, the winter business season in back in the good old days, um, it was difficult to sell all your Christmas stuff and have it in the basement for the next year and not have that money returning things. So we pretty much closed um, in October and had the luxury of going down to Florida where we live and then come back in the spring and we were open seven days a week. We're open every night until 10 o'clock. And because we had bills, we had people to, to take care of. KK: Yeah, I'm sure, you said you had a big staff. Um, let's see. Let me see what I have any, well you, you really covered uh, most of it. I guess one of the questions is, um, what was your impression of law enforcement in Saugatuck Douglas? And I know you touched that. NA: Well, law enforcement in Saugatuck Douglas, I, I, I, I was, we had two police departments. The Saugatuck Police Department was the police department that I was the closest to and I was the closest to them because I needed their security and support and we really supported them and they were a bunch of good Joe's and they were good policemen and they followed through and they made us feel secure. Personally at this particular time I find it, um, not as secure because of the change that was just made. Um, our manager who lives in Fennville, the policemen have to come from Allegan to come in and, and secure the people. Well, what is that? KK: So you're talking about the fact that Saugatuck got rid of its police department. NA: Yeah. KK: And is like contracting it out. NA: Right, I’m against that, I'm against it. I have a building here and I don't think it's for the better of the city or the people and with the tax base in this city, which is healthy in both cities, it costs a lot of money to live here, costs a lot of money to own a building, and those dollars should be going and allocated for our security as well. Not just garbage pickup or someone to take a trip. [00:30:19] KK: Okay. Thank you very much for, you know, telling me your feelings. I, I do understand because I live here too. Uh, who did you socialize with in the summer? NA: I didn't have any friends. Nobody liked me. No, I'm kidding. [Laughs] KK: I would find it impossible. NA: You have to say that. What did we socialize? Actually we socialized with our customers because we worked all the time. �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 9 KK: That’s what it sounds like. NA: We had, we, we owned a student union. If you went to college, or in high school, you ever had a student union where everybody meets? That's what our store was people. People, but they would come in and they would stay and they'd talk and they'd be there at 10 o'clock. Back then I could pour them a glass of wine and more wine they had the more they bought. Um, no, that was a joke, but it was true. Um, but it was, it was a place where we tried to create a social life, but unless you can pay back, if you're going to accept an invitation, you want to be able to pay back. And we didn't have that opportunity because we worked seven days a week. So it was, our store was our life. KK: Yeah. Well, and, and, and I know myself every, any time I’ve gone in there. You were there, so. NA: Yeah, I was. KK: Yeah. Uh, what are some of your hopes for the future for yourself? NA: My hope is for the town to keep growing, that we have a few franchises here which somehow snuck into this town. I fought hard to eliminate franchise, especially when the McDonald's, I don't have anything against to Mcdonald's. I have a lot against franchises coming into our town and taking away the ambiance of what Saugatuck is all about if you want to be out on the highway, you want to be somewhere else, but let's keep this little fishing village, a, a cute and quaint and as classy as it's always been. And um, my, my other hope is, is that, uh, people will always come here with the enjoyment of the experience of being here a short time or long time and come back another time. It's always been that way. That's been the history. Once you come to Saugatuck, you're going to come back. Yeah. And I like that for forever. KK: What do you think are some of the greatest needs currently facing the community? NA: [Pause] From a retail standpoint? I mean, we've been out of this for a couple of years. I always felt that there wasn't the coordination or, uh, I think competition builds business, but I never felt that there were many people that were all working on the same team. Um, if you were in, in, uh, business here and you were successful, uh, you are the target of trying to get what he had, where he was going, which is fine. But I, the community was never one where all the retailers other than the associations we were with, um, really supported each other and said a lot of nice things. It’s all competition. That's fine, because I'm going to win because that's how I feel. KK: Yeah. NA: Um. KK: Okay. NA: Yeah. �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 10 KK: No, I understand what you're saying. Uh, remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time. When uh, when someone listens to this tape 50 or more years from now, what would you most like them to know about your life and the community right now? NA: Well, my life is um, spectacular. Um, I could've stayed in the corporate world, but I chose to go into a more creative world, which was 35 years of my life. I have the good fortune of having a son and a daughter. And through that I have two grandsons that um, are keeping me and will keep me younger and thought and mind. So I have that luxury, and now I have the luxury of making an interview and talking openly and honestly so that someday when my grandkids come to this town, they'll see those legs hanging, and they'll have seen some information from my son and they could listen to a recording of their grandfather and say, yeah, that was exactly who he was. KK: Well, let me, you know, for, for posterity here, let's talk about where are the legs now? NA: The legs are now here at the school. KK: Okay. [00:35:00] NA: We had, we had um, many options because they were a popular thing and uh, we were going to donate it to the um, fundraiser for the gay community, which does a lot for, um, a lot of people in this community that was started by Carl Jennings and Larry Gammon years ago, which we all support and still do. And there were other organizations for, um, cancer and for a number of things, but we felt that the best thing would be to have the legs because we were here for such a long time and we were at destination store. We got letters from different senators complimenting us when we closed the store, that it was a destination for store for Michigan and that we were complimented on bringing a lot of people to share, not only Saugatuck, but the other things that Michigan had to offer. So it was a nice reward. KK: And uh, by the way. We're really, really pleased to have them here, they are hanging in our stairwell. NA: In pink! KK: Yup. And uh, she's got quite an outfit on. NA: Yeah, and she’s not wet in the rain. KK: [Laughs] But uh, you know, at the, they still are here for people to come and see. NA: Right. So when you come to the library, take a look at the legs, there's a wonderful little plaque down there and we're soon going to have some other information, for you to read. KK: Okay. Uh, any advice for a young person who may listen to this tape? �Neil Atherton – Interviewed by Ken Kutzel July 27th 2018 11 NA: Yeah. Go with your dream. You can, there's nothing you can't do if you want to do it. I, I love money and I am a materialistic guy and I gave all that up to come here and sell stuff. When my father saw this store the first time when he came to visit, he loved the town cause the golfer, he was a golfer. So this was a great town. But he said, what are you doing? You got all this education, you got a store full and nothing anybody needs, why are you doing this? You got a family to support what you're doing? So go with your dreams and there's no free lunch, no free lunch. You got to work for it and you've got to work hard. KK: Okay. And you know, uh, kind of to finish up, is there anything else that you'd like to share that I might not have asked you about? NA: Um, yeah, the good health and wishes of anybody that comes here so they enjoy the day. KK: Thank you. Uh, Neil, thank you so much for sharing your memories with me. And, uh, this concludes our interview. NA: Thanks. [00:37:46] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-AthertonN-20190727 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Atherton, Neil D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Neil Atherton (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Neil Atherton grew up in Illinois near Milwaukee and came to Saugatuck in the early 1980s. He and his partner Jim Yarro operated the gift shop Hoopdee Scootee from 1982 to 2016. In this interview, Atherton reminisces about Hoopdee Scootee, creative advertising, the art community, and being openly gay in a small town. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Gay men Sexual minorities Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88bacc23364466ef69f212b19755332f.pdf aeee20cf193040f5b5c8fb6a373a98be PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Frank Collins Korean War 7 minutes 27 seconds (00:00:17) Early Life Pt. 1 -Born in Manistee, Michigan -Had to walk to school because no school buses were available -More relaxed time during his youth -Grew up in Manistee -Had three sisters and two brothers -Both brothers served in the Army -Born on July 4, 1933 (00:01:26) Enlisting in the Air Force -Mother died and father moved to California -Departure of parents prompted him to enlist in the Air Force -Note: Dependent on date of enlistment it would have been Army Air Force or Air Force (00:02:00) Training Pt. 1 -Basic training was difficult for him -Wasn't used to taking orders -Had to adjust to that (00:02:28) Early Life Pt. 2 -Worked before enlisting in the Army -Got a job at the company his father worked at (00:03:20) Korean War Pt. 1 -In personnel staff -Kept records during the Korean War -While in Korea he processed North Korean prisoners of war -Recorded and radioed in North Korean train and aircraft movements (00:04:10) Baseball -When he was a boy he wanted to become a professional baseball player -Had a chance to play professional baseball with the Washington Senators -Had no future in baseball beyond that though and the money wasn't good -Played baseball while in the Air Force (00:04:59) Living Conditions in Korea -Rough in Korea -Incredibly cold and lived in pup tents (00:05:21) Training Pt. 2 -Went to Personnel School to learn how to be a record keeper -Learned how to march and take orders in basic training (00:05:45) Korean War Pt. 2 -Didn't see any combat while he was in Korea (00:06:11) Military Career -Stayed in the Air Force for 11 years -From 1952 to 1963 -Also served in the Air National Guard � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_CollinsF1840V Title A name given to the resource Collins, Frank M (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-26 Description An account of the resource Frank Collins was born in Manistee, Michigan on July 4, 1933. After his mother died and his father moved to California he enlisted in the Air Force in 1952. He received basic training and went to Personnel School. During the Korean War he was deployed to Korea and worked in records. He processed North Korean prisoners of war and also spent a month monitoring the train and aircraft movements of the North Koreans. He stayed in the Air Force until 1963 then went on to serve in the Air National Guard. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Collins, Frank M. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Richter, Madelyn (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1276c4630d81314ccbb164345bbb17c6.pdf 8b39937dd57282e284d39df99ab41147 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project David Katona War in Afghanistan 8 minutes 24 seconds (00:00:04) Early Life -Born in 1989 -Has two older sisters -Mother worked as a nurse -Father worked as a veterinarian -In high school prior to enlisting (00:00:42) Enlisting in the Marines & Training -Father had served in the military -He was in fifth grade when the September 11th Attacks happened -Wanted to do something to help fight back -17 years old when he talked to a Marine recruiter -Trained for a year in Michigan before starting training on the delayed-entry program -Chose the Marines because he wanted to be the “best of the best” -In retrospect, basic training was fun -At the time it was shocking and totally unexpected -Had to learn how to do everything the proper, Marines way -Right down to tying his shoes -Had a pretty easy time adjusting to the Marines (00:02:34) Serving in Afghanistan -Did a tour in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2009 -Stationed in Helmand Province, Afghanistan at a base 30 miles from the Pakistani border -Relieved another American unit at the base -Within the first two weeks of being there they made contact with enemy troops -By the end of the fight the enemy had been pushed out of the area -Afghan civilians were normal people -Just uninformed and primitive people -Formed long term friendships with Marines on his deployment -Especially the Marines in his squad (00:04:22) Contact with Home -For the first two months in Afghanistan the only way he could call home was with a satellite phone -Eventually had a communications tent set up at his base -Had computers, phones, and an internet connection -Allowed a half hour of internet time every day (00:04:47) End of Service -He was out of the Marines by the time U.S. involvement in Afghanistan ended -Had gotten discharged due to the military being downsized (00:05:09) Life after Service -Had an alright time readjusting to civilian life -Most days have been alright -Family greeted him in North Carolina when he came home -Threw him a party at a local hotel and bought him a nice dinner -Not a member of any veterans' organizations, but he still gets together with friends from the Marines �(00:06:29) Reflections on Service -Matured quickly in the Marines -Only 18 years old when he first saw combat -The kind of perspective he wouldn't have gotten elsewhere -Biggest lesson he learned in Afghanistan was to keep his head down (00:07:15) Miscellaneous Details -Had a deployment in Afghanistan and a Sea Service deployment -Note: Means that he served aboard a ship -Attained the rank of E4 (corporal) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KatonaD1846V Title A name given to the resource Katona, David Ferenc (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-02-15 Description An account of the resource David Katona was born in 1989. When he was 17 years old he enlisted in the Marines and when he turned 18 he reported for basic training. He did a tour in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2009 and was stationed in the Helmand Province of Afghanistan at a base 30 miles from the Pakistani border. During his time in Afghanistan he carried out patrols and engaged enemy forces in the area. After the tour in Afghanistan he returned to the United States at North Carolina and was discharged sometime after that and before U.S. involvement in Afghanistan ended in 2014. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Katona, David Ferenc Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maier, Courtney (Interviewer) Bredeweg, Mackenzi (Interviewer) Cheeks, Jada (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1954856bd4028a6df1c980f1e57c97de.pdf fa3868b783ddc30c9d07ff330a63dddf PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Darin Jousma Yugoslav Wars & War on Terror 9 minutes 1 second (00:00:13) Early Life -Lived with his parents before enlisting in the Army -Had a part-time job when he was in high school (00:00:32) Enlisting in the Army & Training -Enlisted in the Army in the summer of 1997 after graduating from high school -Joined the infantry because he liked the idea of being an infantryman -Training was extremely rough -Never experienced treatment like that before (00:01:22) Stationed in Bosnia -Deployed to Bosnia as part of a peacekeeping force in 1998 -Inspected weapons bunkers and made sure the Serbs were not moving weapons -No combat -Remembers going to confiscate weapons from a group of Serbian troops -The Serbs pulled their weapons and pointed them at the American troops -American troops radioed in two Apache helicopters to circle the area -Show of force against the Serbs to show they were no longer in charge -Serbs dropped their weapons and walked away (00:03:13) Downtime in the Army -Read a lot of books -Played a lot of video games -Played cards with friends (00:03:26) Friends in the Army -Made lifelong friends in the Army -Drives across the country just to see them (00:03:45) Contact with Home -When he was at the barracks in Germany he had access to telephones -Spent a lot of money on phone cards and calling-collect -Now, he has Skype and voice chat virtually anywhere in the world (00:04:27) Stationed in Kuwait -Got to Kuwait just before Thanksgiving 2004 -Celebrated Thanksgiving and Christmas 2004 in Kuwait -Wasn't too difficult -Didn't like being away from home for his birthday though -Had his birthday in Kuwait shortly before being sent home (00:05:21) Skills in the Army -Learned a lot about IT in the Army -Proved useful in the civilian world (00:06:02) Current Service Pt. 1 -As of the interview, Darin is in the Michigan National Guard (00:06:11) Coming Home -Returning from a deployment is one of the best moments of your life -Strange to return to a world with hot showers and flushing toilets �-One thing he missed about deployments was being around and working with close friends (00:07:13) Stationed at Fort Riley -Spent a couple years at Fort Riley, Kansas -Assigned to the 2nd of the 78th Armor -Most likely 2nd Battalion -Served as the unit commander's driver -Fantastic job -First job he had in the Army where he had a lot of control over his daily schedule -Mingled with high-ranking officers and saw the command process (00:08:16) Current Service Pt. 2 -Currently a 2nd lieutenant in the Michigan National Guard -Will be promoted to 1st lieutenant one month from the interview's date � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_JousmaD1843V Title A name given to the resource Jousma, Darin Richard (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-02-11 Description An account of the resource Darin Jousma enlisted in the Army in the summer of 1997 after graduating from high school. He served in Bosnia in 1998 as part of a peacekeeping force helping with the confiscation of weapons and stopping Serbian forces from moving weaponry and ordnance around the country. He was stationed in Kuwait in 2004. He spent a few years at Fort Riley, Kansas with the 2nd Battalion, 78th Armored Regimant and worked as a commander's driver. As of the time of the interview he is in the Michigan National Guard with the rank of 2nd lieutenant and expects to be promoted to 1st lieutenant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jousma, Darin Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jousma, Josh (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d409b1ab3fba5e84c0ef25ae06475fb.pdf c210406dbc774b37251481499e778030 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Wayne Kooy Cold War Era 8 minutes 16 seconds (00:00:05) -Born April 26th, 1932. -Served in the US Army attaining the highest rank of E2. -Born in Lansing, Illinois in their home. -Family of 5 siblings, one girl and four boys. -Worked for nine months an electrical engineer before the military. -Drafted in March of 1955. -Took basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. -Nicknamed Fort Lost in the Woods, Misery. -Due to being deferred to complete college, he was slightly older entering the service. -Older by about four years. -Worked with the S & P. -Took a basic electrical engineering class in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. -“Very basic” a “simple review” due to his experience. -At Fort Monmouth he attended class for the summer. -Next he was sent to White Sands in New Mexico. -Worked in the meteorological division to make devices to measure weather. (3:30) -Example of one device: created to measure the phase-shift. -Resided at White Sands for 18 months. -The military did not suit him. -Disliked the lack of choice and independence. -Had one pay dispute with his authorities. -Did not have any trouble returning to civilian life. -Returned to the job he had prior. -A few friends from the military are still in touch. -Would not say that he enjoyed the military, but didn’t find it distasteful. -The experience was somewhat useful in life. -Discipline was a worthwhile characteristic. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KooyW1831V Title A name given to the resource Kooy, Wayne John (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-26 Description An account of the resource Wayne Kooy was born in Lansing, Illinois on April 26th, 1932. He was drafted in March of 1955 and had basic training in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. In the Army he used his electrical engineering skills to craft and maintain meteorological devices in White Sands, New Mexico. With his time in the military he achieved the rank of E2 at his highest ranking. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kooy, Wayne John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kooy, Brendon (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2345b40ae171e519c39f82f46e211a22.pdf 70c07b64b355853cb376b2c5c45c6a89 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview British Army Richard Saunders Length of interview: (24:48) (00:00) Early Life     Richard was born on January 25, 1930 in Plymouth, England He had three sisters; his father was in the navy and his mother was a cook Richard attended school until he was 15. After that, he got a job working for the railroad o His job was to take phone messages and record the contents of trains While he was working for the railroad, he was drafted into the army (2:35) Army Life      After basic training, Richard served in Germany and Holland In Germany, he worked for the army postal service o His was part of a mobile postal service that traveled from Herford, Germany to the Hook of Holland o In Germany, they were based in a clothing factory. The men working for the postal service received various courier duties (4:45) When Richard got out of the army in 1951, he returned to work on the railroad as a shunter o Shunters positioned the cars of the trains and put them together (5:30) Training for the army taught them discipline and how to shoot a rifle o Since all of the men that Richard trained with were drafted, they had little to no interest in the army When Richard was getting his first physical for the army, he had to stand naked in front of six doctors while they determined if he had flat feet o The doctors determined that he had flat feet, this was something that Richard took advantage of o On one occasion, Richard complained that his feet were hurting. He reported to the doctors who gave him a special, more comfortable pair of boots. The officers didn’t like that he was different boots than the other men (8:25) Post-Army Life/Reflections of the Past   After working as a shunter for a time, he was promoted to a head shunter and went to a new location (still near Plymouth) In June 1969, Richard came to the United States o He worked with a family member who was a painter, until he found work on the C&O (Chesapeake and Ohio) Railway �         Life in America was rough until he was able to make friends and settle in (10:10) Richard’s father was killed during the Second World War o Richard was only 11 at the time so he didn’t fully understand the gravity of the situation The military life was frustrating because he couldn’t say anything to the “morons yelling at him” (14:15) Life during the Second World War was difficult because no one knew when their town would be bombed o When the bombs fell, they went into a shelter that was partially buried in the earth. It protected them from anything other than a direct hit o Richard’s mother was an air raid warden. She walked around and reported extensive damage Richard never wanted to be in the service and therefore, never considered himself a soldier His time in the military was interesting because of the post-war dynamics that he observed (20:00) In a lot of the areas Richard was in, the bomb damage was too great for the British to clean up. However, the Americans and their bulldozers were able to clear up the damage with bulldozers The American railroad was very different from the British railroad o It was easier to work on the American railroad because the equipment was more advanced o Richard retired from the railroad in 1992 Since his retirement, Richard had done a lot of traveling in Europe o It was nice to see the places he had known as a child. Now that he had money, he was able to enjoy himself in ways that he couldn’t when he was a child o In 1994, he and his sister traveled to England. When he was there, he realized that he wasn’t and Englishmen, he was an American � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_SaundersR1821V Title A name given to the resource Saunder, Richard George (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-25 Description An account of the resource Richard Saunders was born on January 25, 1930 in Plymouth, England. He attended school until he began to work for the railroad at age fifteen. Richard was eventually drafted into the British Army and worked in the army postal service. His particular duties required him to frequently travel between Germany and Holland. After leaving the military in 1951, Richard returned to work on the railroad. In 1969, Richard moved to the United States where he worked for the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway until his retirement in 1992. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Saunders, Richard George Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewis, Emily (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9019e87b6127d90fae9a427557de6f0b.pdf b4b8f7390101c4db454b9f12369b9593 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Korean War Floyd (Bud) Hall Length of Interview (43:56) (1:10) Early Life   Floyd’s father was in the heating business. o After working with his father for several years, Floyd went into the wholesale milk business for 35 years and then the chemical business for 20 years Floyd was enlisted in the Navy at age 16 (2:00) Military Life     Swimming was important skill to have in the Navy He eventually decided to join air-sea rescue, which was part of the paratroopers o Since all of them were volunteers, Floyd was free to return to the Navy at any time, but didn’t because he was having fun Paratrooper training was fun for Bud o They started training by jumping off a four foot platform o The next step was a 30-foot tower with a cable that prevented them from hitting the ground o The 250-foot towers were next. Here, they had to control their parachutes in order to land without hurting themselves After the jumping, training got tough o They were required to crawl through a muddy pit while machine guns were fired over their heads o Training was also conducted in Florida for a time. Here, they were required to jump into a swamp. The jumps were conducted between 1,500 and 1,000 feet o Night jumps were also common; this was very difficult because they couldn’t see where they were going (9:00) Korea    Floyd arrived in Korea in 1952 He never spoke to the Korean People because he didn’t understand their language He was positioned on a mountain near the 38th Parallel when he and his comrades ran out of water o They walked down the mountain until they found a small stream o When they headed back up the mountain and came across a small village where people were washing themselves in the stream that Floyd had drank from �            o Quinine tablets were used to make the water drinkable and reduce their chances of getting sick (12:10) Floyd was very close with the men in his unit because they lived in a tank for weeks at a time o In total, Floyd had a total of 55 men under his command; they were like brothers When they returned to the United States they conducted a maneuver along the St. Lawrence River o Twenty-five men were killed when the truck they were in was hit by a train o Floyd also remembers a time when his plane was on fire and he had to quickly make sure that his men got out of the plane. A lot of them landed in the trees below When Floyd had six months remaining in the service, he married his first wife o He lived in Hopkinsville, Kentucky, which was 20 miles away from Fort Campbell (where he was stationed) They would occasionally fly over a nearby river, where they could see mist coming from moonshine distilleries While Floyd was stationed at Fort Campbell the Tennessee Dam Authority was in the process of building a dam on the river o They warned everyone in the area where the moonshiners were to leave because they were going to flood the area for a lake (19:25) When they were in the tanks (Korea), Floyd stood up and leaned out of the turret to call out targets for the four men below o A lot of the targeting had to be done with his own eyes because they didn’t have very good targeting systems o Snipers also posed a problem when Floyd popped his head out of the tank o On one occasion, Floyd fired his 50-caliber machine gun at a tree. Shortly after he did this, a pair of pant fell from the branches. He doesn’t know if he killed the soldier or not o They took some small arms fire but not much else Small planes flew above the tanks and served as spotters for them o Although they rarely saw the targets that were being called in, they knew when they hit something o The Chinese artillery posed a significant problem; the rounds sounded like trucks flying overhead There were a total of four tanks in Floyd’s group; they narrow roads didn’t permit any more Floyd doesn’t recall shooting enemy soldiers because he was always at a distance Floyd lost a lot of weight because it ration drops were difficult to pull of o Gas for the tanks was usually dropped before food (28:31) Out of all the places he visited while in the military, he enjoyed Alaska the most Floyd remained in Korea until the war ended in 1953 o Those who served in the navy as well as the air force worked tirelessly to provide the infantry with the proper support �  Floyd only jumped from an airplane once during the war o The jump occurred during the night and the men in Floy’s unit encountered no resistance Throughout his time in Korea, the air force was constantly searching for enemy infantry o If enemy troops were located, the air force quickly moved to deal with them o Floyd’s brother was in the air force during the Second World War and flew a lot of missions in the South Pacific (35:30) After Korea      After he left the military, Floyd had a scholarship to play football at Michigan State but he turned it down because he wanted to get a job Floyd returned to Fort Campbell later in life; he was amazed at how much it had expanded He went back to work so that it would be easier for him to adjust to civilian life Serving in the military taught him to love others Floyd advises those who wish to join the military to take it seriously so they don’t get themselves into trouble � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_HallF1815V Title A name given to the resource Hall, Floyd (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-15 Description An account of the resource Floyd "Bud" Hall enlisted in the United States Navy at age 16. After a short time in air-sea rescue, Floyd decided to join the paratroopers. He describes the paratrooper training process and the numerous practice jumps that were required. Floyd was eventually sent to Korea in 1952 and served as a tank commander until the end of the conflict in 1953. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hall, Floyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Favreau, Courtney (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8806f856313d3d98a2501587b4b8d4ce.pdf 0f970b53a9876e83251cf79df529af03 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Andrew Knott Cold War 10 minutes 25 seconds (00:00:05) -Born on September 5th, 1940 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. -Served in the US Army during the Vietnam War. -Highest rank achieved of E4. -Four siblings in their family. -His father was a carpet installer, and his mother was a housewife. -What was it like growing up during World War II? -Remembers his uncles coming home on leave from World War II. -Recalls the lack of bubble gum due to sugar rations. -Reusing tin cans etc. -A lot of displaced people in the area from the Netherlands. -The Berlin Wall was built around when he was 20. -Drafted in July, 1961. -Sent to Fort Knox for basic training. -Next sent to Fort Carson, Colorado. -Intended to be trained for 105 artillery. -He was given the role of a cook. -He was given a status with a “permanent pass”. -When the 5th infantry Division was reactivated he was sent to Headquarters Company as a cook. (5:00) -As a cook they worked with every other weekend off. -Their group went on maneuvers as well. -Swift Strike was one such maneuver in North/South Carolina. -There for a month. -Later they were on the way to California for a maneuver when the Cuban Missile Crisis made them return to base. -Their supply sergeant returned from Saigon, Vietnam as the Vietnam War was about to begin. -He is classified with the V.A. as a Vietnam veteran, however he was in the military for only the beginning of Vietnam Era. -Some duties: washing pots and pans, cooking for the generals. Orderlies would serve. -Used a truck with an electric refrigerator and propane stove thanks to the abundance of electric generators on base. -Generals were not hard to get along with. -Left the military in July, 1963 not long before the Kennedy assassination. -At Fort Carson they were building NORAD nearby at the time. -After leaving the service he worked selling/installing carpet. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_KnottA1818V Title A name given to the resource Knott, Andrew Thomas (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-23 Description An account of the resource Andrew Knott was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 5th, 1940. In July of 1961 he was drafted in the period just before the Vietnam War. Entering the Army, he was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training and Fort Carson, Colorado for artillery training. In the 5th Infantry Division he was a cook. In his time in the military he went on several maneuvers and experienced the threat of the Cuban Missile Crisis. In July 1963 he was discharged and left the military. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knott, Andrew Thomas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Knott, Jonathan (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b1d06eedcea9530b6faf70712b3a349.pdf a6a39b46457d6536954c996a77a6bc54 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Ray Pell World War II 17 minutes 15 seconds (00:00:01) Early Life -Born on March 20, 1927 in Fremont, Michigan -Parents were farmers in Fremont -He had one sister -She died in 2001 -Attended high school until he was seventeen (00:01:14) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 1 -Completed all of his necessary high school work before he enlisted -That way he was able to receive his high school diploma before graduation -Mother collected his diploma on graduation day -He felt a duty to help stop the Germans and the Japanese (00:02:17) Training Pt. 1 -Received basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois -Sent to San Bruno, California for Marine training -Trained with the Browning Automatic Rifle -His job would have been to give covering fire as troops advanced or retreated -Received landing craft training -The California coast was set up like the coast of Japan -Preparing for the planned invasion of Japan -Did amphibious assault training every day -After the amphibious training was complete he returned to San Bruno -Preparing to ship out for the invasion of Japan -The atomic bombs were dropped and the invasion was called off (00:03:30) End of the War Pt. 1 -When the war ended he and a few other men went to San Francisco to celebrate -The city was in chaos -Remembers seeing sailors smashing windows -Saw a woman walking around naked (00:04:29) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 2 -Decided to enlist in the Navy because he liked it better than the Army -Felt that he had a better chance of surviving in the Navy than in the Army (00:04:44) Friendships in the Military -He made one good friend from Muskegon while he was in the Navy -Became lifelong friends -His best friend from Fremont was serving in the Army (00:06:00) Contact with Home -Maintained contact with home by way of letters -Still has the letters he wrote to his future wife and to his family �(00:07:22) Training Pt. 2 -While he was stationed at Great Lakes Naval Station he remembers tow target training -A plane would tow a target and antiaircraft gunners would shoot at the target (00:08:05) Life after the War Pt. 1 -He had dated his future wife for three months before he went into the Navy -After he returned from the Navy he got married to her -After returning from the service he tried to get into the Michigan 52/20 Program -Gave veterans $20 for fifty two weeks -When he went to sign up the process was so long that he decided not to do it -Attended college at Ferris State University -Graduated with a degree in watch repair -Worked at a jewelry shop as a watch repairman for a year and a half -Went on to work at a used furniture store in Fremont for nine years -Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1957 -Daughter was blind and mentally handicapped and needed specialized care -Went on to have three more children: two daughters and a son -Youngest daughter died when she was thirty nine from a massive heart attack (00:12:36) Cruises in the Navy -He wound up being assigned to a hospital ship -On the first cruise they were sent to Guam to pick up patients -Wound up not having a full load and were sent to the city of Manila in the Philippines -On the way back from the first cruise they ran into a storm in the South China Sea -One of the lieutenants he served under had been at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked -Returned to San Pedro Harbor in Los Angeles, California -Delivered the patients and repainted the ship -Went on a second cruise, that time just to Guam -Picked up a full load of patients there -Saw men with severe injuries, including amputees (00:16:53) End of the War Pt. 2 -Remembers feeling good about the war’s end and not having to invade Japan � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_PellR1637V Title A name given to the resource Pell, Ray (Interview outline), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-05-21 Description An account of the resource Ray Pell was born in Fremont, Michigan on March 20, 1927. He grew up there and completed high school when he was seventeen and enlisted in the Navy prior to graduating. He received training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois and amphibious training in San Bruno, California. When the war ended due to the atomic bombs being dropped, he was assigned to a hospital ship. He went on two cruises aboard the hospital ship, the first one to Guam and the Philippines and the second just to Guam. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pell, Ray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dewitt, Riley (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1c0d20d90c550321982644106c40a600.mp3 f2a4c6b1927150720a3ba7ca42043f4d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05a4056da028ff471199cca9764d6461.pdf 8ce9cc0f24c795791c811df7a2491f8a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Rocco J. Farano (00:41:00) Brief Introduction • Rocco was born in Troy, NY near Albany. He was enlisted in the military at age 18. (1:05) • Rocco was a student prior to his military career. (1:18) • Started out military career in infantry, then moved to Air Force later on. (1:25) • Was a part of the 36th Division, 3rd Battalion, [regiment not identified]. (1:32) • Spent much of his time on active duty in combat. (1:47) Combat experience in Italy, other remarks • His first combat began by marching on Rome. He was wounded in the left arm on the way to Rome in Vitrelli. The wound was not serious, so the medics briefly patched him and he continued on the mission. (2:15-2:44) • Marched through Rome on June 6th. (3:03) • Wounded more seriously later on. While in France he was wounded in the face. This was his second time wounded. He remarks that France was particularly active. (3:25) • Received the Purple Heart, and the Bronze Star. (4:04) • While in Italy, he was made a scout because he could understand Italian. This role in reconnaissance would continue later in France. (4:22-5:06) Reconnaissance mission in Italy • Sent on a reconnaissance mission to find the enemy troops. He was accompanied by five other troops, totaling six people as half a squad. Each person in the squad was equipped with hand held automatic weapons. One person in the squad had a light machine gun which could be disassembled. The weapon had to be carried by two people even disassembled. The other five men had regular M-1 rifles, which held several rounds, but not as many as the light machine gun. He also notes that one man in the team was responsible for all the ammunition. (5:166:51) • As part of the mission, his team had to cross a wide open field. Crossing such terrain was dangerous as it provided little cover. On one side of the field was a hedge grove running a length of about two hundred yards. There were a few openings in the hedges, which two enemy snipers used as cover. (6:59-7:41) • While in the field, his team noticed smoke and began heading toward it. (7:28) • His friend Milton Hill, a schoolteacher from New England, was killed by enemy snipers. (7:55) • His team discovered that the source of the smoke was a burning barn. (8:27) • Behind the barn was a French truck loaded with German troops. The Germans were notorious for re-using captured equipment. (8:33-8:42) • His team decided not to attack the Germans directly, as they were vastly outnumbered. Instead they fired on them with the light machine gun, while one of the team ordered the Germans to surrender in German. (9:10-9:33) • He notes that some of the Germans were trying to sleep off a night of drinking schnapps, which contributed to their success. (9:43) • His team captured nearly twenty Germans. (10:03) • One member of his team was sent back to the base, inform the base and ask for a truck to capture more Germans. These prisoners were captured without casualties as an entire platoon �• • • • was used. (10:22) People in local houses knew they were Americans, and helped hide his team. This turned out to be an unnecessary maneuver as the situation had been resolved by the other platoon. Headquarters sent more men to retrieve his team. (11:50) The success of this mission earned him a Bronze Star. The small number of casualties, the captured enemy troops, and the success of an important mission contributed to his earning the award. (12:36) The troops were often afraid, small arms fire, rifles and machine guns all contributed to this fear. The most feared enemy weapon was the small artillery, or mortars. He also notes that ADA (?) were especially feared as well. (14:00-15:00) After the war was nearly over, he was put in the Air Corps as a military policeman. (15:48) Discussion of his facial flesh wound: • • • • • • After being wounded, he was went to the AID station for a few hours. His wound was stitched, and a patch was applied as well. He notes he was very lucky not to have received a more severe wound, and that he still has scars. He praises the army doctors for good work. (16:0016:24) He stayed in the hospital until his wound recovered. Once he recovered from his wound the war was mostly over, and his superiors realized he was overqualified for his position in the infantry so he was transferred to the Air Corps. (17:37) He notes he thought this conclusion ridiculous. (17:54) He was wounded in the face during a fire fight in enemy territory. Both sides were equipped with machine guns. The American forces were dug into foxholes. He shared his foxhole with one other man. It was common to shift from one foxhole to another while patrolling the area. (18:08-18:57) The enemy knew he was in the area, which was in a Belgian town. He was trapped by enemy fire, and ran to his foxhole. In his haste to get in the foxhole he forgot his weapon (Browning Automatic Rifle, or “BAR”), and was shot in the face while retrieving it. His partner used his med kit, to patch his wound to the best of his ability. (14:12-20:06) Next he went to the AID station as previously mentioned. He regarded his stay there as something of a vacation due to the hot meals and being able to use a proper bed. (20:35-20:50) Post-Combat • His favorite place to be stationed was Birmingham, AL. He was also partial to Belgium, especially the French portions. (21:15) • He did not recall anyone treating him badly after returning to the States. (22:29) • Some of the Germans had American-made weapons. (23:10) Interaction with German POWs • A German officer in a POW camp in Italy had an American weapon, a .45, which he confiscated. He realized later it was actually a .38, not a .45. He still has the gun. The German officer was one of the few Germans in the camp. (23:42) • He notes he did not liberate any concentration camps, but he did put German soldiers into prisoner of war camps. (24:40) • One of the German prisoner was skilled with leather crafting. Rocco gave him four packs of cigarettes to make him a holster for the gun he took earlier. He still has the holster as well. (24:40) �• After the war, German prisoners were released to their homes. (25:49) Drafted, and dates served • Explains that he was drafted. He tried to join the Air Corps, but was unable to at the time. (26:00) • Doesn't remember how he spent his off-time while in the force. He doesn't remember having any off-time other than his time in the hospital, for which he was very thankful. (26:47-27:18) • He made a few friends while in the force, most of which he has lost through the years. (27:40) • Entered the force in 1943, left in 1946. (27:40) More on his life after the War • After finishing his tour, he went to aviation school. He notes he was able to do so because of the GI Bill of Rights. He was at the Academy of Aeronautics for two years. Eventually he gained experience as a mechanic. (28:10) • He also got married, and got a job working for his father-in-law. His experience as a mechanic gave him good references for the position, aside from the fact that he needed work and his father-in-law needed help. He worked forty-five hours a week, and also made a six percent commission, which made him economically prosperous for the time. (30:02) • His wife worked as a secretary for the same company until she became pregnant. (30:34) • He learned from the experience, and only regrets not being able to join the Air Force earlier on in the war. (31:06) • He was only officially wounded twice, but was actually wounded more often. He was hit in the foot, and was wounded in other ways. Overall, he is thankful to have come out in one piece. (31:20) • The worst thing about the war for him was seeing his friend Milton Hall being shot. (31:47) • He was also horrified seeing the victims of mortar blasts and ADA(?) shells. (32:00) • Has a cabinet in his workshop which has some keepsakes of his time in the military. He did not take many of these during his time in the infantry as he was too busy. He had models of German equipment, some pistols, and Nazi armbands. He once had two rifles, which he had since sold. (32:38-33:20) • Fought only in Europe. After being drafted he was sent to Africa, but by the time he arrived the fighting was over. Some officials thought about sending him to Asia, but they decided they would need troops eventually and he had been trained in European style terrain so it would be better to send him to Europe. (33:53) Brief summary of training and movements while in the service • He shipped to Italy, and landed in Sicily. He fought outside and through Rome, and then he was moved again. After Rome he was briefly taken off of active duty for a breather. Next he was sent to west Europe. (34:30-35:44) • He was drafted as a young man. After being drafted he was sent to Birmingham, AL. He remarks going from New York to Alabama was very strange for him, and “may as well have been Timbuktu.” He was very lonely initially, but soon made some friends. He spent the rest of the time practicing maneuvers. (36:18) • He was only trained for eight months before being sent into active duty, as they needed replacements badly. (37:42) More Post-War memories • Explains that he spent most of the war trying to protect himself, as did everyone else. (38:14) �• • • If he had the choice to go back at the time, he would not have gone. However, his country needed him, and he had to go against his will. He was in the service from 1943 to 1946, during which he spent most of the time in combat. (38:46) While in the military he spent time in Germany, Italy, Czechoslovakia, and Belgium. (39:10) His most memorable moments were the end of the war, and the day he was told he would be going home in a short time. (39:39) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_FaranoR0281V Title A name given to the resource Farano, Rocco J. (Interview audio and outline), 2007 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-03 Description An account of the resource Rocco J. Farano (Rocky), of Troy, NY served in the 36th Infantry Division during the WW II from 1943-1946. He saw action in Sicily, Italy, and later served in France, Belgium and Germany. Most of the interview focuses on combat in Italy, where he led a patrol that captured a German platoon, and was later wounded. Upon recovery, he was transferred to the Army Air Corps and completed his service with them. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Farano, Rocco J. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bova, Kristen (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b325ce64bb46f077022e361ca6de506d.mp3 7cea14abf321650d1ca083b21c958ce5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c51b18e9a01e5597bb245ed27b9a8a0.pdf 03330942e88bc4f5285b119dd849ab64 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Edward Benjamin World War II 2 hours 53 minutes 36 seconds (00:04:50) Early Life -Born in a house on the corner of Fuller Avenue and Hope Street in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Note: Most likely born in December in either the late 1910s or the early 1920s -Had a sandbox in the backyard -Lived there the first three or four years of his life -Moved to a house down the road -Lived there for a year and a half -Walked to school from that house -Father had a house built in East Grand Rapids -Decided to build another house -Moved to the next street over while the second house was built -Lived there for another year and a half -Moved to a house on Sherman Street in 1934 -Went to high school and Grand Rapids Junior College while living in that house (00:08:54) Start of the War Pt. 1 -Feels that the commanding officers at Pearl Harbor were made the scapegoats for the attack -Believes the president and military intelligence knew an attack was coming -Decided to do nothing about it -Had met Admiral Kimmel in 1932 (Commander-in-chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet) -Showed Edward and his Uncle Bob pictures of ships and diagrams -Completely reasonable and innocent thing to do prior to World War II -Everyone was upset about the attack on Pearl Harbor -People wanted nothing less than the total destruction of Japan -Kept track of the early events of the war -Uncle Bob worked for the Grand Rapids Press and kept the family updated -Heard about the Battle of Wake Island -Not a lot of good news at the beginning of the war (00:11:17) Enlisting in the Army -He was old enough to be drafted -Note: Prior to November 1942 the draft age was 21, not 18 -Note: Means that Edward was at least 21 or 22 when he enlisted in the Army -Knew that he could serve as a dentist in either the Army or the Navy -Didn't want to serve on a ship -Decided to enlist in the Army as a dentist -En route to Detroit for a dentists' convention he heard about the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo -Raid happened on April 18, 1942 -Reported to Fort Custer, Michigan for his physical and processing �-Issued uniforms -Commissioned as an officer in the Army since he would be working as a dentist (00:12:34) Stationed at Fort Custer (First Time) -Ordered to report to Chicago on May 2, 1942 -Went to Chicago with his wife -Stayed together for a weekend then she returned to Grand Rapids -Received orders to serve at Fort Custer -Received his basic training at Fort Custer -In the fall of 1942 troops and supplied moved out -Knew that the United States was starting to pour soldiers and material into the war (00:13:29) Stationed at Fort Sheridan -Ordered to report to Fort Sheridan, Illinois on December 1, 1942 -Assigned to an antiaircraft battalion at Fort Sheridan -Spent the winter at Fort Sheridan -One of the coldest winters he ever experienced -Wife visited him for Christmas 1942 (00:14:23) Stationed at Camp Myles Standish Pt. 1 -In mid-February 1943 he received orders to go to Camp Myles Standish, Massachusetts -Father was serving as a colonel with the quartermaster at Camp Myles Standish -Stayed with his father until he could get established in the barracks -Father was eventually transferred to Fort Lee, Virginia -Wife gave birth to their first child while he was at Camp Myles Standish -In August 1943 he was in the hospital and received orders to report to Chicago, again -Visited a friend who was on leave in Portsmouth, New Hampshire -Friend was the executive officer of a submarine (00:17:52) Stationed at Fort Custer (Second Time) Pt. 1 -In Chicago he was assigned to Fort Custer a second time -Able to go home on weekends thanks to extra gas coupons from an enlisted man he befriended -Enjoyed being in Michigan, close to home, and away from the warzones in Europe and Asia (00:19:25) Stationed at Camp Myles Standish Pt. 2 -At Camp Myles Standish he remembers crates of beer being loaded onto ships before tanks -Learned the beer was being sent to North Africa to improve the troops' morale -Took priority over the tanks because of that reason -Remembers a ship that left out of Boston full of troops from Myles Standish -Got torpedoed somewhere between Greenland and Iceland -Almost everyone on board died -Learned that a German spy in Taunton, Massachusetts helped orchestrate the attack (00:21:22) Stationed at Fort Custer (Second Time) Pt. 2 -Had a cottage at Fort Custer -Close to Gun Lake -Enjoyed being away from the frontlines �-In fall 1943 he could see that Germany's days were numbered -He was at Fort Custer on June 6, 1944 for the invasion of France -On June 5, 1944 he heard the invasion was being postponed due to fog -Woke up early on June 6 and heard bells ringing, signaling the start of the invasion -Everyone was anxious about the invasion of France -In fall 1944 a massive number of troops got deployed (00:24:30) Deployment to the European Theater -Received orders to go to the European Theater -Went to Camp Reynolds, Pennsylvania to receive some training and gather supplies -Went on an infiltration course -Crawled under barbed wire while machine guns fired over your head -Remembers it was a nasty, rainy day when he did that -He was the second man to complete the course -Spent Thanksgiving 1944 at Camp Reynolds, Pennsylvania -Locked down because they were getting ready to deploy -Had planned on meeting his wife for Thanksgiving, but was not allowed -Went by train to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia -Stayed there for several days -Absolutely no communication with the outside world -Anything sent out of camp was delayed for a week to maintain secrecy -Went to Hampton Roads, Virginia to board a Liberty Ship -All of the men he was going overseas with were replacements -20 officers and 65 black soldiers -Rest of the ship was filled with cargo -He was placed in charge of the men because he was the ranking officer -Didn't want to bother the troops so he wrote up a good report as fast as he could -Left Virginia in the middle of the night -Woke up the next day at sea, in the middle of fog, waiting for convoy to form -When the fog lifted he saw that a convoy formed -Big, square formation of ships -Four or five miles by four or five miles -His ship was near a front corner of the formation -Had destroyers protecting the transport ships -Could only go as fast as the slowest ship in the convoy -Slowest ship was a small British ship that was incredibly slow -Took the Southern Route -Sailed from the U.S. to Bermuda to the Azores -Men wanted church services on Sundays -Had a black soldier officiate the services -Had a quarter of tough-looking black soldiers sing hymns -Held the services on the deck of the ship -Took three weeks to get across the Atlantic Ocean -Men occupied their time with gambling and feats of strength -Loved standing on the bow of the ship �-When they got close to Africa he saw the Atlas Mountains -Looked like the edge of a saw -Beautiful sight (00:38:03) Sailing in the Mediterranean Sea -Sailed through the Straits of Gibraltar -Lots of Allied ships patrolling the water -Saw a Spanish ship try to pass through the Allied ships -U.S. destroyer ordered the Spanish ship to leave the area -A large part of that was because of Spain being pro-Nazi and fascist -Saw the Rock of Gibraltar -Convoy broke up in the Mediterranean Sea -Sailed to Oran, Algeria at top speed -Wanted to get to the port as fast as possible because U-Boats prowled the waters -Dusk when they pulled into Oran -Beautiful harbor -Had gone through gun drills on the ship during the voyage -Fired the ship's guns to be familiar with using them -Did abandon ship drills -Soldiers did well with those drills -Stayed in Oran until noon the next day (00:42:58) Arrival in France -Joined a small convoy and sailed to Marseille, France -Only took a couple days to sail from Algeria to southern France -Celebrated his birthday on the ship en route to Marseilles -Remembers lightning striking the ship -Thought an ammunition ship in the convoy exploded -Saw sunken ships in the harbor at Marseilles -Knew you were in a warzone (00:45:12) Stationed in Marseilles -Taken by truck to large estate near Marseille -Camped in the courtyard -Arrived on December 23, 1944 -Freezing cold -Had eight men to a tent plus a little wood stove for heat -No fuel for the stoves except for wood they scavenged from the area -On one instance they used pine cones as fuel -Befriended some of the locals -Got bread and cheese from the mess tent and brought it to a bartender to make a pizza -Had wine and shared it amongst themselves -Witnessed air raids -Shrapnel from the antiaircraft rounds rained down on them -Marseilles was a beautiful city -Remembers a Catholic church dedicated to the fishermen of the city -Had models of the fishing boats that had been blessed by a priest -Remembers a football game held between two American units �-Confusing to the Frenchmen watching -Began to wonder if the War Department lost track of them -Went out scavenging for wood one night -Found a stack of wood and brought it back to the wall surrounding the courtyard -Threw the wood over the wall then climbed over the wall -Next day saw they found the only opening in the wall -Rest of the wall was topped with pieces of broken glass -Saw the beach at Marseille and the abandoned German pillboxes -Had a good Christmas dinner in a stable in Marseilles -Enjoyed it, but it was difficult to be away from home -Remembers a friend that carried a carbine into town whenever he went into town -Went into Marseille one night with that friend to get dinner -Left the restaurant and an air raid siren went off -A random door opened and a Frenchman welcomed them inside -Sat and drank wine with the Frenchman and his family until the raid's end -Learned the Germans sent over one plane to take recon photographs of the harbor -Gave the photos to the German Navy to plan attacks on ships -Plane flew out of range of the antiaircraft fire -Some of the French were very appreciative of the U.S. troops, others were not (00:58:28) Sailing to Italy -Boarded a ship in Marseille with British soldiers and Yugoslavian partisans -Really rough weather and a lot of men got seasick -He got seasick, but never threw up -Supposed to go to Naples, Italy, but the harbor was already filled with ships -Redirected to Taranto, Italy -Old Italian naval base -Saw Italian ships tied up in the harbor -Kept there since Italy's surrender in September 1943 -Went across Taranto to a train station and boarded boxcars -Traveled north along the east side of Italy (01:02:24) Stationed in Caserta -Cut across Italy to Caserta -Got off the train and boarded trucks bound for Count Galeazzo Ciano's old dairy farm -Note: Ciano had been executed in January 1944 by Mussolini's government -Farm was located between the mountains -Had tents beside the farm's pond -Tents had wooden floors, but there was an inch of standing water -Had canvas cots for sleeping -The next day they gathered supplies and waterproofed the tents -Made a candelabra out of Army issued candles, a piece of wood, and a coat hanger -Went to the Red Cross station in Caserta -Warmed up by their large fireplace, drank coffee, and ate cookies -Caught rides on military vehicles and peasant carts into Caserta -Hitchhiked to Naples �-Saw Mount Vesuvius -Naples got really dark at night due to blackouts -Spent a while in Caserta (01:07:50) Reassignment to the Front line Pt. 1 -Boarded a train and was appointed the Train Surgeon -Fortunately, he didn't have to do any work on that train ride -Went north and had nothing to eat -Got into the British 8th Army's section of Italy -Went to a British mess tent to get food -Served unappetizing, greasy food and tea (which he hates) -Used the tea as hot water for shaving -Stopped in Rome for a half hour -Headed toward the front line -Saw the island of Elba -Got to a replacement depot outside of Pisa -There for a little while -Issued orders to join his unit (01:11:28) Life after the War -Had a house on Greenwood Avenue in Grand Rapids -Wife and daughter lived there during the war -Lived there as a whole family for a while after he got home from the war -Moved to a house on Hall Street in Grand Rapids -Eventually moved the house on Hall Street to Elmwood Street -Lived there until daughter got married and son went to college -Now lives in a condo off of East Paris (01:15:24) Father's Military Career -Father studied at the Naval Academy and at the National War College in Washington D.C. -Taught Reserve officers in Grand Rapids -Served in Washington D.C. before the Second World War began (01:19:10) Start of the War Pt. 2 -Knew things were tense between the U.S. and Japan -Remembers decorating the house for Christmas on December 7, 1941 -Sent out to buy some pine boughs at a nearby farm -Farmer told them Japan bombed Pearl Harbor -Didn't believe it at first then turned on the car radio and heard reports coming in From 01:21:20 - 02:07:25 (Deployment to European Theater) through (Reassignment to the Front line Pt. 1) is repeated. Story picks up again at 02:07:26. (02:07:26) Reassignment to the Frontline Pt. 2 -Went from Pisa to Florence by train -Road north was getting mortared by the Germans -Felt vulnerable and knew he was in a war zone -Passed through Florence �-Lots of military supplies -Got past the place the Germans were mortaring without incident -Came to a farm and reported to the colonel -Told his unit was stationed in Florence (02:09:05) Stationed in Florence -Got a jeep and returned to Florence -Unit was quartered at a small soccer field in the city -Had a small venereal disease (VD) hospital and a dental clinic -He did dental work for the soldiers in the city -He was placed in charge of the dental clinic because he had the highest rank -Got along well with the veteran soldiers -Florence was an interesting city -Visited the city and explored -Saw the Florence Cathedral -There were a lot of old buildings -Only 15 miles from the frontline -Heard artillery fire in the distance -Had a lot of work to do -Still made sure all of the men got a day off -Visited the Red Cross station in Florence -Saw the home of the famous Middle Ages poet, Dante Alighieri -Italians had been abused by the Italian fascists and then the German occupiers -Meant they unconditionally respected the American soldiers -Befriended the men in his unit -Had not received a lot of mail in a while and became slightly melancholy about that -Came back to his quarters one day and found half a bushel of letters from home -Italian women did the soldiers' laundry -In two days you got your clothes back -Women washed the clothing with cold water and stones in the irrigation ditches -Had to make sure you got your clothing back before you moved (02:17:42) Death of President Roosevelt -On the morning of either April 12 or 13 he woke up and learned President Roosevelt had died -Everything in Florence closed down to show respect for the late president -British soldiers and Italians wanted to know about President Truman -Americans knew very little about the new president (02:19:26) Downtime in Florence -Got to see a couple concerts and go shopping while in Florence -Very little to buy because the Germans took a lot when they retreated (02:19:56) R&R in Rome -Knew a major offensive was coming and his commanding officer granted him an R&R to Rome -Went to Rome with a chaplain from his unit and a British soldier -Saw the Vatican -Offered a chance to meet the Pope, but respectfully declined �-Felt that Catholic soldiers should see the Pope before he, a Protestant, did -Met some of the British soldier's friends and got drinks with them -Visited the catacombs -Went to a party with the British soldier and British officers -British soldier survived the war, became a minister, and kept in contact with Edward (02:24:00) Spring 1945 Offensive in Italy -When he returned to camp in Florence there were only a dozen men at the camp -Watched as Allied planes went toward the frontline -Half of the sky was filled with planes going north -Other half of the sky was filled with planes going south -It was like clouds of planes -Made the ground vibrate like an earthquake -Drove north on a two and a half ton truck -Passed through a destroyed Italian town -Awestruck by the silence and the odor of war and death that hung over the place -Moved to a northern Italian town -Learned Mussolini had been captured and executed by the Italian resistance -German oil refineries destroyed by Allied bombardment -Meant no more German planes and German vehicles were on the retreat -Found burned out of German vehicles as they advanced north -Received word that Germans in Italy surrendered on May 2, 1945 -Men shot off flares in celebration -Advanced to Verona, Italy to prepare for the occupation of the Brenner Pass -Objective was to keep the Germans out of the Alps -Established a dental clinic in Verona -Soldiers hunted rats to deal with the infestation -Knew the war was coming to an end (02:32:43) End of the War in Europe -On May 8, 1945 Prime Minister Churchill's message of victory was broadcast to the troops -Two men from the 88th Division remarked they'd survived from Africa to VE Day -Watched movies and drank to celebrate the war's end in Europe -A few days later 15 German soldiers surrendered (02:35:20) Post-War Duty Pt. 1 -Able to relax -Went to Lake Garda -Found an old castle and given a tour by the caretaker -Learned the caretaker's son had snuck from Germany to Italy -Reassigned to Montecatini -Worked in a redeployment area -Soldiers getting reassigned to Pacific Theater -Worked two shifts -6 AM to 2 PM or 2 PM to 9 PM -Small town health resort �-Took sulfur baths and came out feeling relaxed -Explored the countryside around Montecatini (02:38:43) Visiting Venice -While in Verona he got to visit Venice -Fairytale-like city -Only stayed for the day (02:39:16) Post-War Duty Pt. 2 -Transferred to the 94th Evacuation Hospital in Montecatini -Made Head of the Dental Clinic -Received R&R to Venice -Planned on taking a jeep to Vienna, Austria, but decided against it -Spent five or six days in Venice -Dances every night in the hotel -Went swimming in the Adriatic Sea -Returned to Montecatini and continued to work (02:42:30) Coming Home & Japan's Surrender -Ordered to gather supplies and go to a camp near Pisa -Went up in the Leaning Tower of Pisa -Spared by German and American artillery -In Pisa they learned about the atomic bombing of Japan -Knew Japan would surrender soon -Slated to go from Livorno ("Leghorn"), Italy to Manila, Philippines -Boarded a ship and sailed out of Livorno -In the middle of the night on August 15, 1945 received word that Japan surrendered -Huge party thrown on the ship's deck -Pulled into Gibraltar and ordered to proceed to Manila -The next morning they were told they were being redirected to Hampton Roads, Virginia -Prompted another party -Pulled into Hampton Roads, Virginia a week later -Sent back to Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia -Called home to tell his wife he was in the United States -Went by train to Camp Grant, Illinois -Arrived in September 1945 -Served a steak dinner upon arrival -Next morning took a train to Chicago then another train to Grand Rapids, Michigan -Greeted by wife and daughter (02:52:48) End of Service -Reported to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas to complete his service -Served there until just before his birthday in December 1945 -Discharged and returned to Grand Rapids to begin his civilian life again � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_BenjaminE1698V Title A name given to the resource Benjamin, Edward Claire (Interview outline and audio), 2013 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-17 Description An account of the resource Edward Benjamin was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in December in either the late 1910s or early 1920s. He grew up in Grand Rapids and in spring 1942 he enlisted in the Army to serve as a dentist. He reported to Chicago on May 2, 1942 and was assigned to Fort Custer, Michigan for basic training. From December 1, 1942 to November 1944 he served at Fort Sheridan, Illinois then Camp Myles Standish, Massachusetts then Fort Custer again. In December 1944 he boarded a ship in Virginia and was deployed to the European Theater. He was stationed in Marseille, France for a while then in early 1945 he moved to Caserta, Italy then in early spring 1945 moved to Florence, Italy where he worked in a dental clinic. In mid-April 1945 the Spring 1945 Offensive in Italy began and he advanced into northern Italy. After Germany's surrender in Italy on May 2, 1945 he served in Verona, Italy then after Germany's surrender on May 8, 1945 he moved to Montecatini, Italy and served as the head of the dental clinic of the 94th Evacuation Hospital. In August 1945 he left Italy and returned to the United States, and after visiting his wife and daughter, completed his service at Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. He was discharged in December 1945 and returned to Grand Rapids. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Benjamin, Edward Claire Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Benjamin, Edward (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf28c133a2d95128f24a2565edff7a0f.jpg 4e408eed2a4beada5c6dae99b7c709b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0121 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Title A name given to the resource Young woman standing on a road leading to Lake Michigan Description An account of the resource Photograph of a solitary woman standing on a road with Lake Michigan in the distance. The photograph is in black and white and she is holding a purse while wearing her summer attire. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Women Michigan, Lake Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52699a022fef6cc2d03b1c20c7e7825e.jpg 5d981ebb73e3224e90dd8bef894b0ec7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0120 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Title A name given to the resource Group gathered near the Saugatuck sign Description An account of the resource Photograph of a group of young people gathered next to the Saugatuck sign. They are leaning on a rope fence with bicycles waiting nearby. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Women Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7d07565bd8f6064363056709729d6df.jpg 46085546bb0d85833b51e293cf5c92d2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0119 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Title A name given to the resource Woman standing in front of a white house Description An account of the resource Photograph of a solitary woman standing in front of the camera and smiling at the photographer. A white house and trees frame her from the background. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Women Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d29d218d7d41f0da94bceabf3d338fbf.jpg 3c621ce21d70a500c1ac08ebc5e292ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0118 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Title A name given to the resource Group of five women standing arm in arm Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a group of five women standing with their arms around one another and smiling at the camera. with houses and trees in the background. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Women Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dc0094cceff9266fc69b72467bea518b.jpg 075d5b958f6da3d351f31f6ba5f1a0d3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Walsh-J_0117 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Walsh, Jerri Title A name given to the resource Young couple boating on Lake Michigan Description An account of the resource Photograph of a young couple out on a speedboat on Lake Michigan. The young man is driving the boat and turning back smiling while the woman on the right side of the picture is lighting a cigarette. Through the rear-view mirror you can see additonal passengers on the boat. The handwriting on the picture says: "Mem. Day. May '68." Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Lake Michigan Boats Memorial Day Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file contributed by Jerri Walsh as part of the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives