376 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25757e26c866915ca684c7e24682c4f5.mp4 06a299d5e5c5d17eec18ee92e0b36f32 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6bdf3df9d5a61ce496667119ae5d1a6.pdf 8a25330dab9c5ed381c71df1ddf4c5ba PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke Date of interview: February 7, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] FRANK BORING: We want to try to convey to the audience that it wasn't just a matter of Bissell getting up there and saying we could have drafted you and you walked out, but why was it that that happened is because you had all these things that you were doing, all this fighting you were doing, this day-to-day no sleep, constantly working and then the loss of people like Sandell, you had these two weeks where you go okay after that two weeks, I'm out of here and it had to be, as I see, it like this light at the end of the tunnel. BOB LOCKE: Well as I said before, we continually - every time an airplane came in - that was a reach at home, even though it was just flying within country. They'd come in there, we'd go down, we'd greet it, we'd meet it, bum cigarettes if they had any American cigarettes or anything else and the war had started and progressed, we had many morale times. There were lulls. This was not a continued fight all the time. There was recovery. One squadron would go down to the front and work and the other one would come back up and it would be a rest period. There were differences of - I can't say who started it - but Charlie Bond was involved in it at one time - of trying to instigate discipline through rank and one of the guys ordered one of the crewmen to do something and it almost ended up in a fight and I think that there were times that there were verbal squabbles. But as I said, I didn't run into much of this because 39 round trips up and down the Burma Road, I was busy. I would come back up and maybe spend 2 or 3 days at the prop shop working around �there and then I'd get a call from one or the other, normally it was the General ordered me when to go. Greenlaw had it in for me because he was sure that he put Ceder on my tail many times and Ceder was his intelligence and he put Ceder on my tail many times to try to check and see what I was bringing up the road. Chennault told me, anything you bring up here you turn it over to Tex Hill or you turn it over to me, it's not to be turned over to anybody else. Many times I would be met before I got into Kunming proper, Tex would drive down there in a jeep and check the loads and check what I had and sometimes I would turn the truck over to him and go back up because Tex had use for the stuff. I don't know, the deception that you ran into periodically, normally I would - if the General didn't order me out, I'd go up in about 2 days and I'd say "Don't you think I ought to go down the road. I know where there's a go down, I can get some stuff." I continually liked what I was doing. Besides I was getting per diem for driving back and up and down the road too. FRANK BORING: You had a lot of contact then with Chennault on a one-to-one basis? Why don't you give us a better idea of - I mean he was your Commanding Officer but you also had a great deal of respect for him. Give us an idea what it was like, you're in the room with the old man and what was he like to work with and to talk to? BOB LOCKE: Well one time - remember I told you we got the booze down in Lashio and we brought it up and we opened the bar in the second hostel. Well before the bar was officially opened, it was gonna be an official opening, so that was with Roady and quite a few of the others, Kemp, that was stationed over at the second hostel. We went in and we broke a couple of bottles out that we had of our self, we took pictures of the bar and sat around and had it all ready to set up for the following day. During the night, after a few drinks, we all went back to our rooms and somebody went in, to this day wouldn't admit who it was, but we did know, and somebody broke in and stole quite a lot of the booze. Well Greenlaw put Ceder on it and started an investigation. This is one of these deals that they �cornered us and said you were there and we know you've got to tell who it was. Well I said I'm not telling anything. Well on the spot Greenlaw fired me and I said you can't fire me, I work for the General. And he said well you just go in and see the General because I'm recommending that you be given a dishonorable discharge. We lost Metasavage at the same time. There were quite a few others, this dissention, a low point of morale, no work to do, supposed to be resting and spies among the group. It didn't help. I went to see Chennault and I told him Greenlaw says I'm fired and he says "Well what he's trying to do is get out who-was it that broke into the liquor and took it." I told him, I said "General, that liquor wasn't bought by the AVG, that liquor was provided by me, I brought that liquor up the road, I turned it all over to the group, as I bring everything up and turn it over to the group." And I said "For a person to want me to snitch on somebody else that I'm not positive of, I'm not about to say." And he said "Is that the final say'' and I said "Yes Sir, I don't want to leave, I honor you and I think that you realize how I feel." And he said "Well forget what Harvey said, I'll tell you what, why don't you get your truck and get your Kitten and why don't you take a trip down to Pow Shan and pick some stuff up and see what you can find." So with that, I got out from under it and I did numerous times. FRANK BORING: What was he like to work with, you're in the room with him, he's telling you what he wants you to do. What was the interplay like? BOB LOCKE: The interplay was that you could tell the old man anything that you wanted. Don't try to lie to him and don't try to cover up, don't speak too loud or don't speak too soft because he was released from the Army Air Corps because he was deaf, supposedly. I've seen many a times when somebody would be called in before the old man and walk out and as you get to the door, "the old son of a bitch", and he'd say "I heard that" so he could hear when he wanted to hear. He was a father image to most of us because he was older than most of us. He was a career officer and I don't care, discipline, he was discipline per se. He, as I said before, if he said jump, we �wouldn't question how high, we'd jump, or if he'd say cut off your arm, you'd cut off your arm. Though he was fair and I think this is what he really had. You don't see many of this type of personnel. Patton I believe was one. With me, Admiral King was one, he was the Admiral, he was over all Admirals. But when it came down to down and out things, he would respect your knowledge. I know Admiral Tomlinson, I knew him when he was a Lieutenant Commander and many the time I'd tell him things and he'd say "LOCKE:, as an officer to an enlisted man, if you're right I'll apologize to you in front of the whole crew, if you're wrong you'll go aft till your hat floats and I'm gonna step on it." So usually, you've got to be positive with what you had. FRANK BORING: With Chennault, a lot of people talked about the first time they ever met him, there was like a charisma about him, there was something that set him apart from anybody else. Did you feel that as well? BOB LOCKE: Of course. He was not God, but he was the closest thing to it and he was not your father, but out there he was the closest thing to it. He had a sense of understanding. The only place I ever saw him real rough was when somebody would refuse to carry out a direct order. For the benefit of the whole, he would still say he didn't want to do it and boy the old man would get up in arms. But I'll tell you, he was fair and the only time he would really let his hair down was on the baseball diamond, and boy! He did then and he was a good player. FRANK BORING: My mother once told me that even in a crowded room or a party, when he talked to you, you felt like you were the only person in the world. BOB LOCKE: That's right. Stood out like a sore thumb. We had many visitors. I know I saw him periodically, he'd have people in and of course dignitaries would come in and they’d come to the different messes. If we were closer to the second hostel, they’d come over there and �they had a certain table that the General sat at. I'd sit there and I've watched him. One day this Britisher came in and he was talking and continually talking. Well the old man liked to be in command of the talking. He sat there and all of a sudden he reached over and he took one of these peppers and he shakes off the stuff, puts it in and just chews it down and took another one and chewed it down and didn't blink his eyes and this guy says "What are those?" and he says "they're Louisiana peppers, you'll like those." And he offers them to this guy and the guy took one, bit if off like that, he gagged and drank water and tried to do things and he sat there the rest of the whole meal and didn't say-a word. Chennault had full command of the conversation. FRANK BORING: If I were to look at Chennault, he was sitting in this room, what would I see? How would you describe the man to look at? BOB LOCKE: Well I would describe him as "The General", that's the way I would describe him. Even if he didn't have the stars on his shoulders - in 1948 I wrote to the General. I'd got through and I thought he was in New York at the time and I wrote him a letter and I said "I know that you probably don't remember me. I'm Bob Locke, I ran your truck convoys for you" but I said "I thought I'd bring you up to date, I'm now a Lieutenant J.G. in the Navy and I'm married and I have a family and I'm a pilot and as a matter of fact I saw Tex Hill down at Eglin Field when I finished flight school and flew over there in an old SNJ and he hadn't flown an SNJ in years and he borrowed by SNJ and flew it around the field." So I received a letter back from the General and he said "Bob, of course I remember you. Congratulations on being commissioned. I knew you were a good man. The Army's loss was when we lost you, but I know that you're doing us proud in the Navy and congratulations on you and your family and best regards and I'm passing this letter on to Tex." So these are things that - even in '57, my first reunion when he was there, and though he was dying of cancer at that time, he was still the old man and the General. And here again, people, families, the people at Ojai and everything, �would come up and "Pardon me, General could we take a picture?" not "could we take your picture with you" it was children, anything. He was very gracious and always seemed to have time for them. FRANK BORING: As I understand from the people that I've talked to, there was a down-to-earth, even though he was a General or at that time a Colonel, 'even though he was the Commanding Officer, when he spoke to you it wasn't as if you were being spoken to like a regular Army guy would talk to you or a military guy, how did he talk to you? When he was going to ask you to go somewhere did he say "Bob, we're going to have you do this, do this, do this" or how did he actually talk to you? BOB LOCKE: Normally he'd approach it, he'd say "Are you busy?" and you'd say "No" and he'd say "Well I understand that there's some equipment that we can use, do you think you could get it?" and I'd say "Sure, General, I'm positive I could." He'd say "do you need any orders?" and I said "no I can carry it out by myself." And he'd say "Well remember if you have any problems, I don't know anything about it." And I'd say "That's fine Sir, it's okay by me. I'll get it if it's possible." He realized that I'd had quite a lot of experience in this of - when you work in different shops in the Navy and you've got certain things to do, you've got to go around and cumshaw. Before World War II, 3/4 of our planes were kept in the air on a crosscountry and stop at an Army field or Army Air Corps field, you needed something, it was cumshaw. You scratch mine and I'll scratch yours and it was the same out there. We did an awful lot of scrounging. And if we didn't, we wouldn't have survived. Because the way that things were tied up, in Rangoon for instance, all that stuff that we burned on the docks at Rangoon because it wasn't released to go up the road and because all the things have to be there, not just one piece missing. Can you imagine us completing in Vietnam we used to lose more stuff - but still and all we would still go on and we would issue what we had left and it's the only way that a group can survive. �FRANK BORING: Please explain about the fact that - not that many people are gonna know about it that you have a shipment of something, if one thing is missing you don't get the whole thing. BOB LOCKE: For instance, you get a consignment. Say there's 100 jeeps. All right, they come out on consignment on ships, maybe there's 50 jeeps on one ship and there's 50 jeeps on the other. In off-loading or something they drop one over the side. Okay, they turn them into the go down, the guy that's in charge of the go down or the warehouse, he has a consignment that says 100 jeeps, there's only 99 jeeps. Until that one jeep shows up, the British would not release the consignment. We had truck tires, we've had airplane tires, we had to have them shipped in - the Navy flew in tires to us, because they were down there on the dock but one complete consignment was missing. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Locke, Robert P. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-07 Title A name given to the resource Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 7 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes what it was like working so closely with General Chennault and the effect he had on those around him. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f96352c72ea93ac9168cd70cf43aa6da.mp4 4fda1c45bde5ca3d0b598556478ff561 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4311733f892ae029b1fce75fe5288681.pdf 8d44b22f87873640afcf32838ffbe190 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke Date of interview: February 7, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] BOB LOCKE: With round trips up and down that road, I was most of the time, on my own. FRANK BORING: Where did you get the name "Burma Bob”? BOB LOCKE: Well they hung that on me because as truck convoy, running truck convoys back and forth, most of my trips were up and down the Burma Road. I forget who – I think it was Sutliffe say "Bob you sure make a lot of trips up and down this Burma Road, I guess we'll start calling you ‘Burma Bob.’" And so there it hung on me and with, as I say, 39 round trips up and down the road, I guess it's appropriate. FRANK BORING: What happened to Kitten? BOB LOCKE: We were going up to Kwei Lin, they had moved a group up to Kwei Lin which was up around Chun King and I was going with Janski - a two truck convoy - we were taking equipment up. Well Kitten was on my truck and she'd got restless riding in the back so when we stopped and put her in the back and tied her between some engines that we were taking up and she was in the back of the truck and it was just about a day and a half out of Kunming, heading north, just about noon, we were strafed. I believe - I know that they made about 2 passes and when they did we saw some trees up the road further and we were hauling for that and Janski �pulled up right behind me and started blowing his horn and I looked in the mirror and he was motioning to me to pull over. So I thought possibly something had happened. Well I pulled over, got out of the truck and walked back and Kitten had jumped out of the truck and busted her neck and she was dragging behind the truck. At that time, it really broke us both up, but we had dug a grave and buried her alongside the road and put her food pan on top of it and that was the last we saw of Kitten. FRANK BORING: Some of the pilots and people in the AVG have sort of stuck out at least in terms of journalists writing about them and all that because of their behavior or whatever. Can you tell us anything about Greg Boyington? BOB LOCKE: Greg was quite a good guy. At the second hostel he was transferred over there from the first hostel because I think that they couldn't close the bar over at the first hostel as long as Greg was living over there. So they put him on alert at the field and he stayed at the second hostel. In my trips up and down the road, Greg had a nose for booze, I don't care where it was and anytime you broke out a bottle, if he was around you'd figure that you may as well - you're not going to put it away, you're not going to save any of it - it's gone. So I know, one of my trips, I came up the road and I just had got a whole batch of stuff and I turned it in at the first hostel and out of it I got a couple of bottles of Scotch. I didn't drink at all but I used to like to keep it for medicinal purposes for my friends and I'd have one drop in once in a while. So I had this booze and I came back in the truck and got over there and snuck in and put it under my mat and - our bar over at the second hostel had been closed down and old Greg Boyington came singing down through there and banged on my door and he said "Hey Burma" and I says "Yeah, Greg?" and he says "You got a bottle in there?" and I says "No Greg, I'm going to sleep" and he'd say "Come on now" so he came in and I said just one drink and he says "Just one, I just want a nightcap.” Well then he sits around and after killing the bottle, he decides that he wants to wrestle because in the academy he had �been a wrestler. Well, he says "how about let's wrestle a couple of falls" and I said "no I don't want to do that" and he'd say "come one" and I said "okay just one fall and then that's it'. Of course he gets up – our hostels are made of woven bamboo or reed and then they're plastered over with mud and they're about that thick. He goes over to a wall and puts a fist right through it like that and you're not going to tangle with anybody like that. But it was one of the nights too, I remember, one of the pilots was living over at the second hostel. He had been over at the first hostel and closed the bar, came back in his jeep and parked it and of course as I said before, I had Kitten between two trucks on a run wire and a big crescent moon was over there and everything was quiet and beautiful, warm evening and this pilot came back singing, walked by within range of Kitten and he was gassed to the eyeballs. We were sitting over there and watched him. He came along and about that time off the back of this truck came Kitten and jumped on him and started slurping and slurping and he was cold sober that fast! FRANK BORING: Do you know why Boyington left early? BOB LOCKE: Well Boyington, as I say, he had some differences with different personnel and his consistent drinking - there were some problems that came up on that, I understood. Greenlaw - Harvey had gotten a hold of him and told him that he'd have to quit drinking or quit flying and the crux of the whole thing was that problems had come up. I think that maybe a little footsies was going along with Olga and I know that they used to go over and play poker over there, and Boyington was one of the favorite poker players over there. As I said before, Olga was a beautiful woman. Anyway, he told Harvey he says "I'll tell you, I can go back in the Marine Corps and drink and fly." So he took off and went to Karachi to New Delhi not Karachi, but he flew over to New Delhi and my understanding was that Olga took all of her jewelry and everything she had and followed him and went over there and said that she wanted to go back with him. But of course this could have been rumors, but I know she was gone for about two weeks and she came back. But �Boyington went on back to the States and of course, when I was in the South Pacific and flying later in the Navy, I heard of Boyington being captured. But he had set a very good record back in the Marine Corps for himself and periodically in the last few years, before he passed away, we used to see Greg periodically. But one of the misconceptions of the whole thing was that Boyington was given a dishonorable discharge. Because only the General was very emphatic - only those that completed their contract with the group and stayed until July 4, 1942, were given the members of the Chinese Air Force Flying Tigers and they were the only ones that were recognized as the American Volunteer Group. FRANK BORING: What was the presence of Olga like around that area? I mean here she was, she's a beautiful woman, you had a whole bunch of young men running around. BOB LOCKE: To all of the ground crew that I know of, unless there was some select group, it was - well, very uncomfortable. I had no problem with it at all because it seems like I was doing my job and I'd been in the Navy and I'd been aboard ships before and abstinence didn't kill me and as long as you worked hard and kept busy, there was no problem. We cherished Foster, the nurses, Dorian Davis, who was one of the girls that came in, that worked with the General and with different ones it was no problem to me, as a matter of fact. I saw her and that was it. She was a beautiful woman, but I had no desire. FRANK BORING: Did you ever meet Madame Chiang Kai-shek? BOB LOCKE: Oh yes. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of her? BOB LOCKE: She was one of the most beautiful people that you ever saw. She spoke English with a southern accent and of course she had gone to school in the south. She was a lady - well Ma Davidson down at �Loy Wing who took care of the hostel down there - she was another lady. Recently when my wife and I were volunteers and went to Viet Nam, my wife came out there and I was working out in Viet Nam and both boys were there. My wife worked at the USO and, as an older woman, it's a funny thing how military personnel liked to be around one of their own kind. Not because of their desire for them, but the desire to be with a respected lady. FRANK BORING: Well you met the Generalissimo, but he didn't speak English. What was your impression of him when you saw him? BOB LOCKE: Well the Generalissimo was quite distinguished, the Chinese adored him. We met him with awe and his thumbs up deal that he used to do, the Madame was really the go-between. They came in just before this reunion, before the final Chinese Air Force plane came in and landed at Kunming. Well as we used to do, any flight that came in - CNAC - we'd go out and greet the plane and look at the stewardesses or we'd climb up on the steps and make believe we were taking off on that aircraft. A group of us were out there one day and this plane came in and this beautiful Chinese lady came out. Well some of the pilots and some of the ground crew gathered around her and talked and somebody said "LOCKE:, how about using your jeep?" and I said "Sure, I'll drive" so they were going to take her to tea over at the second hostel and we did, we loaded her in the jeep and drove over to the second hostel and got over there and she sat around for must have been 15 or 20 minutes having tea. Of course the room boys and the house boys all knew who she was too and they were just in awe. But she was the most gracious person you ever saw. Then within about it seemed years, but it must have been about 30 minutes maybe, General Chennault and the Generalissimo came in and said "I'm sorry boys but we've got to break up this up. Madame Chiang has to go now." And boy, I'll tell you – I think that most of them knew who she was. I didn't, all I knew was that she was the most - it was just wonderful to be around such a beautiful, gracious woman - just to hear her talk. �FRANK BORING: What do you think the AVG did for the Chinese people? BOB LOCKE: Well I think that the Chinese people figured that they were losing the war, they were being overrun by the hordes, step-by-step they were retreating. I talked to one of the Chinese Generals one day and I asked him "what if the Japanese come in here and we're gone and they come in. What will you do then?" and he says "the more Japanese come in and we retreat and first thing you know the Japanese stay and they take over and maybe one generation, two generations, three generations - pretty soon no more Japanese, all Chinese again." So I think that the Chinese people are adaptable, I think they thought that AVG was wonderful. I know to this day when I've been to - we made trips to Taiwan and we've seen Chinese groups that knew us at that time, the overseas Chinese who have come to the United States periodically, they'll recognize either seeing our insignia or something that we're wearing that identifies us as former members of the AVG, the Chinese just love us and we, in turn, think that they're a wonderful people and we were glad that we were over there to be able to do what we did. FRANK BORING: What were you personally most proud of, of what you did with the AVG? BOB LOCKE: Survived. Was able to survive, was able to come back knowing that I'd done a good job, I was proud of what we did, I was very proud of the group and to a man I don't think that there's one person that was out there that I'm not proud of and able to say that I'm sure glad I was able to survive and come back to the United States and make a career, complete my career in the Navy. At this age now I look forward to every one of the reunions, to get together and swap stories with the group. FRANK BORING: You have this feeling of pride and you know what you accomplished and it's obvious from everybody I've ever talked to, but yet the military at the end there, they acted as if none of it happened. How did you feel about - you'd been fighting this war �and these guys are coming over from the States and telling you what to do and saying we're gonna draft you. What was your reaction to these guys? BOB LOCKE: You take what people tell you - at that time when we were proud of the fact that we were fighting, doing a job, we were given those that were knocked down to their knees a chance to recover and we knew that the American people would take over and come right back. One of the things that military personnel – I shipped in the Navy as I said in '34 - I made a career of 26 years in the Navy. A career regular Navy man is like a home guard. The people that win the wars - anytime one of these wars comes up - the only people that win the war is the man on the street, the one that comes in, the reserve. We would have never won that war, World War II, if it hadn't been for the Okies who came to California in the 30's, who settled out here and scrounged and did anything that they could to make a living and then when the war started they were the ones right there in the front row doing the war factories. The citizen soldier is the one that comes in, sheds his blood, if he survives, goes back as a civilian and makes this country what it is. It's not the military career man, it's the reserve that has it and God bless 'em. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Locke, Robert P. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-07 Title A name given to the resource Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 6 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke discusses how he received his nickname running truck convoys up and down the Burma Road, in addition to his sense of pride and accomplishment as a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14b23bb2a91057101cdb344a71e621b9.mp4 dd58a4a96b79aa0b9b9e4b11e086ed8a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5f48fe102bc5ad9945ae7d8175d6266.pdf 70a275604c42fa5ad5fcfef4a6049d28 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke Date of interview: February 7, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: The baseball game. BOB LOCKE: This Sunday we were having, as recreation, a baseball game and this staff car pulled up and out of the staff car came - looked like a Captain - came charging over there to us and weeded through and yelling '"Ten-shun, 'Ten-shun" and I guess we should have jumped up, but we were sitting around on the steps and having some iced tea and he says "Don't you hear me, I said Attention?" and one of the guys said "What do you mean attention, we're civilians, we don't have to stand up to attention." Well General Bissell, I suppose, Colonel George came up with a smile on his face and he weeded his way through, Bissell came behind him and he weeded his way through. We may have given a little bit for that star, but still and all it was our first contact with Bissell. As we say, you know who is giving the orders and you know who is back taking it easy when the rough stuff is coming through. I don't think, as a whole, any of us objected – we had heard rumors that he was going to be there - and of course, Chennault had been out there fighting all this time and Bissell had been in the States. Well, when General Chennault, as a matter of fact, he got a spot promotion of "General" at the time "Brigadier" and he - of course Bissell outranked him and Bissell was overall in charge of the Tenth and we didn't like this - of him just moving in and taking over. I think that we were a little jealous of the way they treated the General at that time. �FRANK BORING: At the party? BOB LOCKE: Well then, on the July 4th on the completion of our contract, we had a big at Kunming. A lot of the pilots and a lot of the personnel were stationed elsewhere, but those of us that were still in Kunming, we were invited to this party and at that time we were given the scarves, like this one over here. They were given to us by the Generalissimo and there were awards, recognition for endeavor and General Chennault stood up and he made a speech and he said that he was so proud of the group, the fact that all of us, almost to a man, had agreed to stay for a six month period and go into whichever force we wanted to go into. As I was going back into the Navy. Each one would be assigned to stay and then in six months they would fly us back to the States and then we would go back to our regular forces. After he spoke and the applause, then General Bissell stood up and he was introduced and General Bissell started and he praised us for our staying with the General and honoring and working with him so well. Then he hit us with a bombshell. He said "Of course you realize that if you didn't volunteer, I could have you drafted." Well this was whack! It hit us - and I think en masse, the whole group stood up - because most of us were either ex-Marines or ex-Navy and drafting - we didn't even know what a draft was in those times. Well we stood up en masse and walked out. So the following day or the following next two days, we were around in the different areas at #1 hostel and #2 hostels, some of the guys arranged transportation and left, because our contract was completed. The General called a meeting and he had us over at the first hostel, those who were left, and he asked if most of us would volunteer to stay for a two week period extra because here came a whole group of Army Air Corps personnel, who had never been in contact with the enemy, they didn't know how to fight, they didn't know the lay of the land, they didn't know where the different things - even the ground crew didn't know where stuff was - we agreed to stay two weeks extra. They guaranteed us that they would give us a flight out to India. Make �arrangements and we'd be flown back to the States if we stayed that two weeks extra. This was with the bidding of Bissell. So Chennault promised us, we figured it was good. Well, the war made a turn for the worse, it seems, because when we completed the two weeks, and at that time even Sandell was lost in this two week period staying over, he had just married Petach and he had married Emma Jane - our first wedding out there - and married the nurse - and he was lost and this was another blow to most of us. Our morale was low, all we could do was try to get out of there. On the flight out from Kunming, we flew into Dinjon [?] and then Karachi. Well between going over the hump - I remember I was in this C-46 and there was a Colonel sitting alongside of me, well most of us had gone down and drawn parachutes and we had our parachute, and this Colonel was sitting over there, had his briefcase, but no parachute. Well we were flying over the hump and about that time this Colonel - the pilot calls the Crew Chief up and he says "we're gonna have to start throwing stuff out, I don't think we're gonna make it over the top and everybody put on your parachute." Well he starts looking around and he turned to me and he says "Give me your parachute" and I says "Not me, this is my parachute, I drew it." He says "I order you to give me your parachute." I says "I'm not in your army Dad, no way are you gonna get this parachute." Well the Sergeant was there and he ordered this Sergeant Crew Chief to give him his parachute. He talked to the pilot and in the meantime the pilot figured that we were still doing all right and we had thrown a bunch of cargo out, but we didn't have to bail out and so we were over the hump and started down the other side and he'd given the Colonel this job. So we get into New Delhi and we landed at Dinjon, got out of the aircraft, threw our parachutes on our shoulders and started trudging. Operations were about a half a mile down the road. Well this Colonel left the parachute there and the pilot came out and he's a Captain and he says "Colonel you left your parachute" and he says "No, that's the Sergeant's parachute." "No sir'', he says "when you took that parachute away from him, that's your parachute, you take it down to operations." And he took off carrying this �parachute and I'm telling you he got down there and his hat was flopping around his ears - it was something good to see. FRANK BORING: So what happened after you left? BOB LOCKE: Well from there we went on and we got another flight out of there into New Delhi. At New Delhi that was where they dumped us. There we had to make arrangements on the local train from New Delhi to Karachi and we rode the train night and day to Karachi, India. You talk about abandoned children, we felt like abandoned children. Some of the guys had made arrangements to go to work at Bangalore at the factory down there and the rest of us all we could think about was getting home. So we got into Karachi and as a group, hit Karachi, went to a hotel and stayed a couple of days, but it was a little stiff on the pocketbook and we didn't know how long we were gonna be there. We saw ships come in, unload, and they'd take off and we figured oh maybe a day or two we'll be aboard a ship. We had to report to the American Consul and the Consul said there is no way of transportation, we haven't any transportation. We said we were promised flights back and there are no flights going back. The war in the Mediterranean or someplace had changed for the worse. We asked and were given permission to go to one of the outlying fields there, which was an Army Air Corps field, and we stayed there in tents and we were free to go anytime we wanted. It was the first Coca Cola's we'd seen for about 14 months and I'll tell you those nickel Coke machines, we just scoffed those things. I think the first Coke I had, I think I drank six in one standing and still didn't quench my thirst. So we, later on with nothing to do, go to movies - there was a local movie in Karachi, and one of the days we were there at Karachi waiting to go, we went to a movie and I forget what it was, but as all movies they first played "God Save the Queen" and everybody stood up. Now you're a mixed brand of military personnel and with the AVG too. Well I was in the balcony right on the edge of the balcony and there was a sailor standing alongside of me and I learned later, a Canadian sailor too. We stood at attention while �they played "God Save the Queen". Then they struck up "The Star Spangled Banner'' and right behind me, a Limey booed and when he did, the sailor grabbed him and threw him bodily off the balcony and a battle royal started. Well, I turned around to this Canadian and reared back and I though "well this is it, it's fight or faint" and so he says "Wait a minute, Yank, I'm one of you" and I said "What do you mean you're one of me?" -and he says "I'm a Canadian" and I said "Good" and about that time the whistles started blowing, the M.P.'s started coming, he and I ran around, jumped in the box to box and down on the stage, and out the back stage door. You know in 1959 I was in Kingstree, South Carolina and I told this story and I noticed this guy that I had never met before in my life. He was an electrician, worked for the electrical company there. He glanced and his face turned and he says "You were there?" and I said "Yes" and he said "I was the sailor that threw that Limey off the balcony and I spent the night in the brig." So you see it's a small world - the things that you travel through. One of the other instances, going up and down the road, we had a group that was from the Embassy up in Chun King and they were furnishing and bringing supplies up for the Embassy and one of them was a Lieutenant, a Senior Grade Lieutenant that had been on the Tutawheeler, and the Tutawheeler down in Singapore or Shanghai or someplace had been sunk, and they were up there. Well they had 3 trucks that they used, enlisted personnel and this officer in charge of them. I would meet him on the road and we'd swap food and swap stories and swap different information. He would stop at our hostel. But all I knew, I just knew him by name and called him "Lieutenant". When we left and came back to the States and I rejoined the Navy - I shipped over in the Navy - I went to the Bureau and it took us from July and the later part of August we waited around in Karachi to try to get out of there and we couldn't. So we decided, these ships coming and going, Sutliffe and I got a smart idea and six of us got together and we went and we hired camels on Saturday, which was a holiday, but we knew that the Embassy was there and we got in front of the Embassy and rode around in a circle on these camels with a bottle of whiskey �and here both of us have beards and saying "The American Consul is Shit" and we kept screaming it out. Well, this was our first time of rebelling and we rebelled real good and eventually it took about a half hour or maybe 3/4 of an hour, but the American Consul came out and made arrangements and we were loaded aboard the Mariposa in the following days and we were on our way back to the States. But this was the only way we got to come back. FRANK BORING: Looking back on it now, what do you feel about those days that year that you spent there? How do you feel about that? BOB LOCKE: I thought it was one of the most fulfilling and gratifying times of my life. The companions that we met are more closer than family. As I said, we get older, we're down to less than 100 I believe at the present time, that still go to the meetings and we're coming up on our 50th anniversary and I'll tell you, in 50 years we as a group, the American Volunteer Group, are closer than blood relatives and the wives also. Any of these reunions that we have, if we didn't agree and we couldn't have the money or anything, the wives would come up with it because they love it just as much as we do. Now, with that, we've got the children and the grandchildren are coming up now. No, I don't think that there'll ever be another group like this. I think that there's a wonderful comradery with personnel in the service, but I don't think that there'll ever be a group of volunteers that come up like this ever again. FRANK BORING: What do you feel the AVG as a group accomplished in that year? BOB LOCKE: You know after Pearl Harbor with the loss of alt the ships, we had shipmates that were lost at Pearl Harbor. Though it's a distant thing, we were continually getting our butt knocked off. The Flying Tigers, as it was said, a small of group of personnel, a small group of men, with a small group of aircraft, obsolete aircraft, aircraft that our military didn't even want that we got lend-lease through the British didn't want it, a consignment of aircraft which lend-lease paid for twice I believe, once to the British and then �once again when we were taken over by the Army Air Corps, they had to pay the Chinese for those old dilapidated aircraft too, so typically, this is one of these things that you run into believe that the AVG gave the spirit to the American people. It gave them a sense of relief, the fact that we can win. I know that through the war I was back in the Navy, I went to flight school as an enlisted pilot, I came out of flight school, reported to the West Coast as an enlisted pilot. I ended up in a utility squadron but I flew in the Navy for years, retired in '58, married a Navy nurse and I'll tell you, I think the background that we have, the teachings, the spirit that we had, has stayed with the American people and it will, it will give them that incentive that when you want to you can really do it and with just bare nothing. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Locke, Robert P. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-07 Title A name given to the resource Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 5 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes the events that happened during their final days in the AVG and his overall feelings on their accomplishments serving as Flying Tigers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c20952006d0cf9333b4b3bf230edb961.mp4 180a60117d16fab008853682ae01c8ff https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/de60d260b9bf37b5b4f0ca451e876c1e.pdf d004134bd71072a25608e9ff16c987ed PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke Date of interview: February 7, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: The British stopped for tea? BOB LOCKE: One of the single trips I made up the road when we were coming out of Toungoo, the war was in full earnest and of course Rangoon had fallen and the British were moving north. Everybody was doing a delaying action fight. Well, we had just left Mandalay and between Mandalay and Lashio, of course as fast as you could go, and I came along the river and, I think it was the Irrawaddy, came along the river and there were a whole bunch of trucks parked nose to tail, a whole series of them, British trucks. Well they were down at the river and having tea and it's in broad daylight, about 2 o'clock in the afternoon. Well I've heard about the British and their tea, but I went down told them "I don't know if you guys know it, just about 2 or 3 miles behind me, is a whole group of Japanese coming up the road." One of the things that the Japanese would do is, a convoy would pull through, different convoys and they would pull through into an area, the Japanese would come out of the brush, get the last truck, kill the driver and then pull up alongside, and as they pulled up alongside, they could annihilate a whole convoy by just pulling up, blowing a horn, a guy will move over and they'll knock him off. So there's different tactics that they used. This day I pulled down there and told them that right behind me, I don't know how far back - but a couple of miles at least, they're coming. And I said "you better get underway." And they said "no, everything is fine, we can depend on it, everything is fine." I �bummed a couple of bottles of beer from them and it was hot, I took my truck and went past their convoy, parked and put it in a bunch of brush and bamboo and about a half a mile, walked back, got the beer, went back down on the river and put the beer into the river to cool it off, because they drink their beer hot. So I decided to cool it off and while I was down there cooling off the beer, I decided to go swimming and I went swimming for a while and was floating around there having a good time and I heard shots back at the camp. Well I'm about a quarter of a mile away from them. Well I didn't even think about the beer, all I could think about was getting out of there and I took off, went roaring back up there and got in my truck and ended up in Lashio. I drove right straight through. I think I drove in shorts - I don't think I even took time to put any clothes on. But from another group that came up - you know they'll hit an area and then they'll go back into the jungle and the next group comes through they find them. Well some of the trucks came through afterwards, this whole group had been wiped out. They had destroyed the trucks and they had completely wiped out this whole group down there on this river bottom. FRANK BORING: What was this experience you had about being strafed? BOB LOCKE: Well one trip I was going up and just when Lashio fell it was hurry, get out and go, I came through Lashio and just the other side of Lashio, as you get into the Chinese country, in other words, from Burma into China, they had a gas go down there. At that time I had about 14 trucks with me, I had combined trucks. Sutliffe [?] was with me and we were trying to hit for the Salween River Gorge as fast as we could. I hired, at that time, my first overseas Chinese, he'd been middle weight champion boxer, I found out later at the International Settlement in Shanghai. He was running a Chinese convoy. Well they were lined up at the gas dump with all the drums of gas and here's his trucks lined up and I came up behind and so I pulled right around and went up to the front of the line and said "my truck's next." He argued with me and I said "how much do you make?" and he told me and I said "I'll double your �salary. When you get to Kunming I'll double your salary." He says "Kunming nothing, you hired me now." And I took him right then off the Chinese. He says "All you other trucks pull out of the way." We loaded ours up and went by and gassed up. Just as we got the far side of that trip, they started strafing. A couple of Zeros came down - I guess it was Zeros, we didn't notice what type - but they were firing at us. And what we did was pull down around the area and here were Lame Ducks on the edge of an open - it's like California walks and all and no place to hide, no place to hide at all. They didn't hit any of our trucks but they made a sweep down and about that time, out of the sky came a couple of '40's and took these guys and ran them away. But they actually shot at us and as we went across the Salween River Bridge, up the far side, I had sent some of the trucks ahead of me, and Sutliffe was up there. Sut had crashed his truck and he'd pulled over to the side, his engine was ruined and everything. One of the guys passing had run him into some boulders and had ruined the truck and he had been strafed. There were bullet holes in the truck. Well it was like riding your horse and riding by and grabbing him. I said "I'm not gonna stop because I've got this other side to go up." So I slowed down and he threw his gear in and away we went. That was the day that I had Kitten with me too and he shared the seat with Kitten. Depending on who was the biggest, he got the window. FRANK BORING: The incident that has now gone down in history is the Salween Bridge – was one of the last events of the AVG before they broke up. Can you tell us as much as you can about what happened there? BOB LOCKE: We knew that they had mined it. They had gone ahead, they'd mined the bridge and they had warned us that they were going to do it. Well we were still trying to get as many people as we could out of Loy Wei and the Salween River Bridge was one of the only ways that even the soldiers could get across. Everybody was retreating up the road. Well we went down the hill as you came down from 7,000 feet cutting down and taking an hour or two to get down to the bridge, crossed the bridge and I believe that I was �one of the last trucks that got across the bridge, because just as I was going up the other side, they blew up the bridge and it fell at that time. Well some patrol had got through, because from the far side they hit - I had a truck with some Allison engines in it - and they hit the truck. I don't know mortars or whatever, they hit my truck and I took off just running as I could to the bush. Well I went all day long. I didn't have Kitten with me, I'd left her up there because I'd flown down there to bring a truck up and I took across country. The first day I came to an area where there was a cave up in the side and there was a ravine down below and I crawled into this cave, which was on the side of the wall. There was hardly any room to stretch out and of course I'd been driving for 7 days, practically no sleep. I was afraid I'd go to sleep and just as I got in this cave, I thought well it's really bad, but this patrol is chasing me, I'm sure they're chasing me. They made camp right down below and it's a Japanese patrol and they made camp right down below and about 10 feet above me they had put a guard up there. Well, if you think you don't have any faith, I was in this cave, I was sure I was going to go to sleep and I said "Good God, what shall I do now?" And just as clear as I'm talking now I heard "Fear not, my son, for I am with you." And I'll tell you, faith in the foxholes, you've got it. FRANK BORING: The bridge was blown by the Chinese - right? BOB LOCKE: It was blown by a team of Chinese - yes. FRANK BORING: If you could just describe, just before they blew it, what you saw as I understand it was just packed full all along the Burma Road? BOB LOCKE: Well it was packed full and people were on both sides. One of the things was you'd try to pick up if you had room on your truck, you'd try to pick up anybody that you could and take them up. But the one thing that you didn't do, leaving Lashio one trip on this hectic time - a Mongi [?] Priest jumped up on the back of my truck and I had about 10 or 12 people on there already - they were the �ones that would - they were very sympathetic with the Japanese and I told him to get down and he said no and he broke out his gun on me. Well here I went up and got my Tommy gun, went back around and burped through the air and I says "Get off." and so he did. I'm afraid that I would have cut him down because he could have destroyed the whole truck. But the Salween River Gorge, the day that I went across there was a lull in between. They'd taken a lot of people. And then this other group was coming down and at that time we didn't know who they were. But they started shelling me as I was going up the far side, so undoubtedly they sent a patrol after me. Now this patrol, two days later, this night I woke up in the morning and they were gone. So I followed them for the next two days. Every time they would stop, I would stop. And you can live off the land under a rock you can get a grub, you can get water from blades of grass. But I lived for two days just existing like that. The third day I came across a Chinese patrol, because I passed them I figured I was getting someplace and the Chinese patrol annihilated this group of Japanese that were chasing me. Now these are things that were in the war diary, Olga wrote this stuff. I don't know if it ever came out or not. FRANK BORING: How did you communicate with the Chinese soldiers? Did you have one of those patches? BOB LOCKE: No. I had no patches. I had the regular Chinese uniform, but we had the Chinese insignia. I had the Chinese - a little slip that was authorized and of course my I.D. card which showed who I was, an AVG I.D. card with my picture. FRANK BORING: Did you find that most of the people you met or talked to or had contact with the Chinese specifically, knew who the AVG were? BOB LOCKE: Yes, they really knew who the AVG were. They knew the difference between the British and the Americans. Normally an American, I don't care where he is, he stands out like a sore thumb, especially in a foreign country. �FRANK BORING: What was the Chinese reaction to you as an AVG - once they knew you were AVG? Was there a difference in the way that they dealt with you? BOB LOCKE: No. They knew what we were there for. They knew our airplanes and even driving trucks, you'd pull into a little town and the people there were very courteous to you, as they always are. Of course they want to sell you things. The teahouses, we'd go in and order food and living off the land as it was, I found that fried rice, chow fong, was about the favorite food. I ate more fried rice than anything. There you know it's all cooked and then your hot Chinese tea. It's all prepared for you. FRANK BORING: Towards the end - before the AVG disbanded, there were rumors I understand that the AVG was going to disband - of course your contract was going to run out since you were the first group. Could you tell us about that last month or so and then leading up to when Bissell finally arrived? BOB LOCKE: Well we knew that the war was going as it was and we had got word ahead of time. Chennault had gone down to talk with Stillwell, who was down in India. Chennault was given a Colonel's commission back into the armed forces. Joe Stillwell was fighting a battle there. Doctor Seagraves was treating and working with Joe Stillwell at the time. I saw Doctor Seagraves quite a few times. Loy Wing was about to fall. I made one of the last trips down there and the General was down there, he'd returned. From Magway some of the pilots were flying in. I remember this day, Schilling came in and he came in on one of the CW Curtis-Wright 21's that they had built at Bangalore and built at Loy Wing. Well it looks like a Zero and we were sitting around expecting a Jing bow any time and all of a sudden, down at the end of the field, over the mountains, came this plane making a low-flying run at it. This is something that a lot of people probably remember that we all broke from the ready shack and - I don't know what I was doing down �there away from my trucks at the time - but I was down there, and General Chennault was with me at the time. We ran out to jump in the slit trenches and there was no room, so we saw one over alongside of it, not far from it and the General Chennault and I ran over and jumped in it and it had been an outhouse and they had moved it and we were knee deep in this stuff and when Schilling came down, we both ducked down into it - I mean it was horrible. But he came out of there and we were sloshing this stuff around, and I know Tex Hill - I think it was - he ran out and got in a jeep and ran out there before Schilling could make a turn and come into the ready shack. He told him "you'd better go on up to Kunming, the General's pretty mad." FRANK BORING: So towards the latter part, you had heard rumors that you might be inducted back in. What led up to - when Bissell finally arrived what were you hearing and then what happened when you met up with Bissell? BOB LOCKE: Well July 4th was set for our retiring date. In other words, we'd completed our contract, those that wanted to go into the service, the General had talked to us and most of us had agreed to go into it. I was Navy and I think I would have been offered a Lieutenant J.G. in the Navy or the reserves if I wanted to stay. Of course we would stay six months to continue after and then when the Army Air Corps took over, we could return to the States and it was all a beautiful promise. Our planes were getting low, the personnel were getting tired, most of us wanted to get back to the States and get back into our own organizations, but this six month extension wasn't too bad. So the party was arranged for the July 4th and we had quite beautiful food and all and the Generalissimo - the first time we got in contact with General Bissell, he came over with Colonel George and an Aide and it was a Sunday and we were at the first hostel having a ball game. They came up and we were sitting on the steps of the first hostel, resting between the innings, and this Aide came up and says "'ten-tion" and we sat there for a minute and looked up and said "what do you mean "ten-tion?" He �says "On your feet - Attention, the General's coming." And we said you don't tell us what attention is and we concentrated on that pretty rough - well we were proud of the fact that we had done a good job and we were all companion feeling of the way we were. I don't think that there was a man out there at that time, if the General would have said "cut off your arm at the shoulder" - I don't think he would have questioned it - he would have done it. FRANK BORING: So Bissell finally arrives? BOB LOCKE: This was the first day we saw Bissell. This was just before the party. Well, at the party, there were many speeches and many toasts and we had a wonderful dinner. Then General Chennault stood up and he said "I think that it's one of the most wonderful things in the world of you men staying and I appreciate your support, I know that you want to get back to the States and you'll go as soon as possible and I appreciate you almost en masse, staying with us." Bissell stood up and he said a few words and complimented the General on things and then, all of a sudden, if he would have just spoke and sat down, everything would have been fine, but the first thing he did, he eyeball to eyeball, here's a bunch of ex-Navy men, he says "well, if you didn't volunteer to stay, I could have had you drafted." Well, with that we got up en masse and walked out and that was the time that this group - a lot of them left. As a matter of fact, the first transportation out of there, the General talked to most of us and asked us if we'd stay two weeks extra to check the Air Force and Army Air Corps out, which we did. I had Sergeant with me that I showed the trips down to the different ways of running the truck convoys and this was my job. Went to the prop shop, Ricks had shoved off and gone down to Bangalore in India, so I showed him the prop shop and I was able to secure and that was it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Locke, Robert P. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-07 Title A name given to the resource Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 4 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke discusses the historic incident that took place at Salween Bridge, the last month before the AVG disbanded, and the arrival of General Bissell. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/38f72710619484b4a540c7f5d9a9ad39.mp4 b1cff18be432912942b84aaa4dffc946 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2712c5b275dc404d080b41be6681b8f1.pdf 111179c44446b1c9e5022285a21b7e6d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke Date of interview: February 7, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: So the story about Kitten and the soldiers. BOB LOCKE: Well, whenever we got to a town - you know driving up the road, it took a long time to get there from one town to the other - we would stop and live off the land at the time. If we didn't have a place to stay, we'd stay in the truck, but normally, with all the equipment and everything we would find a place to stay. Well anytime you parked in a town, you'd try to park on the outskirts of town so that in case of a bombing you wouldn't lose it. But people being people would be very curious and we lost quite a few things. So what I came up with was hiring - I'd go to the first military compound as I went into town and I would hire two soldiers. And you'd put one right at the truck and he would patrol around the truck, armed and you'd put another one at about 100 yards away and he would stay back there and watch the first one. Well if the first one that you gave the job - if he got in the truck or tried to get in the truck, that guy had his orders to shoot him, the one that was away. If the other one out there tried to approach the truck, he had orders to shoot him. And the Chinese – I’ll tell ya—one time I came up the road out of Lashio and I was driving just a single truck and these Chinese soldiers - a whole group of them, must have been a company, there was a bunch of them, they had Mauser rifles and all - this officer came over and he says, "I'm commandeering your truck'' - to me, he explained it to me, and I said "[?] No AVG and [?], which is going and he says, "That's right". Well he broke out �this little 32 revolver and stuck it in my face. I reached down and took my 45 and stuck it in his face and we were at a stand-off. And he said, “yes” and I said, “no” and so he looked at the barrel of mine and he looked at the barrel of his and he said "Okay, you go" so it was things like this that we ran into making trips and it was an adventure all the time. Kitten - one of the trips up the road, I was going just after the Salween River Gorge and came up the far side. Well you're curving from about 7000 feet down to the Salween Gorge, across the bridge and up the other side and it takes hours to do. Well these trucks are right hand drive, not left hand drive, and Kitten had her side. She'd sit up there in the front seat with me and had her window. Well this one day, hot and driving, and she decided she wanted to get up behind me. Well she got up behind me and started looking out this window and the first thing you know, she was by that time about 110 pounds of her - and she pushed me forward and I'm trying to drive the truck with my steering wheel like this. I reached up and grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and I put her down on the bottom of the truck and I said "you stay there" and she went "haahh" and I said "Don't you fizz at me, I'll show you who's boss." and I boxed her again and she stayed down there. Well the road straightened out, I got at the top and started down cruising along good, she came up and got up alongside of me and put a paw up on my shoulder and rears up alongside of me and looks at me and she goes sluuuurp, sluuurp, licking the side of my face and I says “Uhhuh, I’ll show you who’s boss” she rears back and she goes - powww - and she caught me on the jaw and I’m telling you I had to stop the truck, both feet just stop like this. Then she goes over on her side and typical woman, she looks at me and says, “I’ll show you who’s boss.” So this was just one of the times that she - she was a pleasure to almost all the guys up there. Of course, some of them were afraid of her, but most of them respected her and she was not too nice. She didn't like women, so to speak. There was one story that - of course Olga Greenlaw spotted her and Olga wanted her right off the bat. She came over to the second hostel. And Olga wasn't even supposed to come over to the second hostel. But anyway she came over there �and she was in one of these white sharkskin suits. That was the days when these white sharkskin slack suits - and she was a beautiful woman. She came over and she said "I want the leopard" and I said "no, she doesn't like women" she says "oh all animals like me". Well we had her tied between two trucks. She went up and she approached it and I said "Olga, don't go near the cat" and boy about that time old Kitten jumped up on her with paws up on here and started slurp and scared her so bad she broke water right then! Just ruined that sharkskin suit. Well, needless to say Olga went to the General and wanted the General to shoot the cat and he said "you shouldn't have been over there." Well Harvey Greenlaw started getting rough on me, so needless to say, Chennault called me and says "you've got some stuff to pick up at Loiwing" so I got in the truck and took off. FRANK BORING: You mentioned about the soldiers where you'd have to hire one to watch the other and the other to watch another. But as I understand it with Kitten on board now you didn't have to worry about that anymore. BOB LOCKE: Well with Kitten aboard I had no problems anymore. I didn't have to go by the military and she would just stay there. She wouldn't stay in the front all the time, I'd put her back in between the load and pull the curtain - the canvas tarp across it and she would stay in there and I'd feed her outside, and of course she was tied in there. Well we pulled into Pow Shan one night and got in there and of course the curiosity of the Chinese - I had just put her in the bed and I had fed her and put her down and she was inside between 4 Allison engines. Well there's not much room to crawl between the 4 Allison engines and I'd say about 18 inches. She was clear up in the front near the bed of the truck, near the truck body. Two Chinese crawled up in there and started up through there. Well one of the guys that was standing there says "watch this, they don't know she's up there" and they went up there - curiosity- and all of a sudden [?] and boy they broke out of there and they came flying out, back down this way, hit, turned in midair and hit, running and �everybody scattered. She came out and looked around and it was something watching this cat. FRANK BORING: What was your relationship with the Chinese? BOB LOCKE: The Chinese to us were wonderful people. We had no problems with them. Periodically you'd have a run-in. Of course, at that time Madame Chiang Kai-Shek had set up a 5 year new life program, so all of the bawdy houses and all of that had been closed down. About the only thing you had was to go down - and we used to gather - on Tuesdays they use to make yoghurt ice-cream at one of these places in Kunming and it was a favorite. We'd go down and we'd get a suitcase full of Chinese money and go down there and buy this yoghurt ice-cream and of course there was only so much available. They were to me most wonderful. One case that I had a problem was coming from the first hostel, going to the second hostel, just as we started out through the middle part of Kunming, a Jing bow - well Kunming was laid right alongside of a lake and a Jing bow called out. Well, I was driving a jeep that day with no windshield, the windshield was down and just as I started through there, this guy with a yo-yo pole with - they had cleaned out the cesspools - and he had this yo-yo pole with two buckets on either end and he stepped out just in time and I just hooked him enough so that he spun around and all this stuff went all over me and in the jeep - I forgot about the Jing bow, I headed down and I think old Musgrove was behind me because he followed me, and I went down and I drove that jeep as far as I could into the lake and I sponged off, but it still didn't do any good. He wouldn't let me ride with him, he'd let me ride on the back of the jeep, but not in the jeep. And you know for two weeks after that, every time I'd go to the chow hall, I'd sit down to start to eat and all these guys would get up and shove off. I took more showers in that two week period - but I'll tell you it was horrible. FRANK BORING: How was your relationship with the British people? Either the pilots or the – did they have mechanics and all that there too? �BOB LOCKE: They had some mechanics and quite a few, as a matter of fact, on one of our trips we hired about 5 or 6 British mechanics when Rangoon fell. We hired them and brought them up the road with us because they had been abandoned by the British. I forget what their names were, but Chennault took them on as members of the group and they stayed with the group for a long time. FRANK BORING: Tell us about the fall of Rangoon. BOB LOCKE: Well I wasn't there at the time it fell, I was making trips up from Kunming, so I heard an awful lot but I would rather that other people that were actually there would tell you about that. FRANK BORING: Just about when you first got the cat, did you have to train or tame the cat? BOB LOCKE: No, no. No there was no training it was just I guess from about the age of – well about 26 pounds was when I first got her and of course you had to cut her nails, but then you wore real heavy leather gloves because she was a little frisky. FRANK BORING: There's a big difference between - you had a Chinese name for it – but scrounging, trying just for survival, trying to find whatever was available. In wartime situations sometimes stores are blown open and things are just lying there, who knows where the owners are. There's a big difference though between that kind of scrounging and black marketeering. What did you see in terms of both of those? BOB LOCKE: Well most of the time we'd go down and we'd have certain loads to bring back and in observing - for instance on the fall of Rangoon, we went down to different places in Mandalay and it was going to fall down. Well they had go-downs, instead of warehouses in town, they'd have go-downs, as they called them. They would be out in the forest and they would be just like a cave with a big door on it �and camouflaged. Well we would try to find out where these godowns were and when Loy Wing fell, we went down just before Lashio fell and Loy Wing was - we went around the back road into Lashio and we knew where two of these go-downs were. Well the CNAC hostel, which was Chinese Air Line hostel was there. We knew that the hostel had beautiful inner-spring mattresses. Well Janski went down with his truck, an International, and he loaded it up with these mattresses, a whole load of mattresses out of the hostel. I got two of the mattresses, put them in my truck. But I remembered where a go-down was and I went over there to this go-down and blew the lock off the door and opened it up and inside was Raleigh cigarettes, cases of them and booze, all sorts of booze. Well I loaded by truck completely with all this booze and put two mattresses up at the back. Well when we drove back into Loy Wing, we came in and old Deal Williams, he was there and some of the pilots and they opened the tarp off Janski's and they saw all these mattresses and they said "What you got Locke?" and I said "Well, I don't know'' and they opened it up and they said "More mattresses" and I said "take the mattress down". Well when they took the mattress down here's all this booze. They started grabbing cases of this stuff and that was when Williams says "leave it alone. Locke take-off up the road and use this" so we did. I took it up and that was what we opened the second hostel bar with. FRANK BORING: Let's now look at Colonel Osley - let's look at December after the first battles, the 20th and the 23rd. Now your job became a little bit different. It went from just maintaining and training some people. Now you had a situation where bombers were coming over, fighters were coming over, fighters were going up against those fighters, shooting, getting destroyed or whatever. What was happening during that period of time, once the battle started? What were you feeling like, what kind of reactions did you have? BOB LOCKE: You mean after December 7th? �FRANK BORING: Yeah because the actual battles began I guess the 20th or so, so that's the period I want to focus on, December, January, through there. BOB LOCKE: Well one of the groups went down - I forget which group it was but I think the Third Pursuit went down and we were all up there at Kunming preparing. The First Pursuit I know left to relieve them later, but those first battles, being in Kunming and working up there were a distance from the war, as we are today. You just hear about it and there would be reports. We heard about Hoffman getting shot down and losing him, Cokey Hoffman, and the battles and how much they won and the pilots flying back up periodically, who got hurt. In the meantime Kunming was being bombed periodically and we would alert aircraft. It's real rough to explain, it's just trying to find a hole and crawling into it, and that's about all most of us did. We had areas that the planes were used to repair and all were over in the trees and they never hit - being between the airport, our prop shop was in a more or less camouflaged area and we didn't ever get hit right there at the prop shop. FRANK BORING: Did you ever witness the bombing of the cities? I mean actually be there and see the... BOB LOCKE: Well at Pow Shan of course I was right there when they hit Pow Shan and bombed there. FRANK BORING: Why don't you describe that for us? BOB LOCKE: Well we stepped out of the hostel, we'd had lunch and looked out and I said to Ben Fuchet, I said "Jiminy, look at that formation" and he said "Those are Japs" and you feel like there's no place safe. Every bomb looks like it's got your name on it. And anybody that says they're not a Christian and not scared, both come out at that time and it’s survival, is all it is. Well when they hit Pow Shan, they killed over 10,000 people in that one bombing - because they �caught them flatfooted. Everybody was in the city and there was no warning at all. FRANK BORING: How did you react to that? I mean you'd had some contact with the Chinese people, you'd been in town, you'd met some of these people. What was your reaction - I mean I know you felt you were in danger, but what was your reaction to seeing these thousands of people being slaughtered? BOB LOCKE: Well it's like anything else. The whole thing is so dreadful. When Benny Fuchet, when we took him in, there was one little Chinese boy sitting over there waiting for his turn to be treated. Not a whimper out of him, but his whole shoulder was blown off. I mean his arm was gone and just a bare shoulder and he's sitting over there by himself, waiting for somebody to treat him. Doc Rich was working, the Chinese doctor was working, the local doctors were working and it was just... war has never settled anything and it never will, as far as I'm concerned. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Locke, Robert P. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-07 Title A name given to the resource Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 3 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes his relationship with the Chinese and British during his time with the AVG, in addition to the fall of Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c84b780cff405fea87e86433c780e8c.mp4 ca1f0213aec14387900633ad680030ed https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/172517f1a3eaaa2334fbd415041926d9.pdf f7962fc5731b8b2a5e151fd75597eaf3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke Date of interview: February 7, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: See this is a safety I got from my dad. BOB LOCKE: Well when I came back from China that was a different proposition. They said we'll give you J.G. in the reserves and I said I wasn't reserve, I'm regular Navy and they said well we can give you Chief again and I said fine, and the guy says, “What else do you want?” - this was at the Bureau - and I said, “I've always wanted to go to flight school”, and he said “You’re on your way”. So the last flight physical I had was in 1939 was at Anacostia and I went through flight school in '42 and I was graduated and two weeks before I graduated the doctor says in.'42 he says "Say Locke, I've been checking, when did you take your last physical?" And I said "My physical or flight physical?" and he says "flight physical" and I said "1939". So he gave me one real fast, he backdated it the day I reported to Pensacola. FRANK BORING: How did you put with the heat and the insects and all of that? BOB LOCKE: Well one of the things was that I'd been stationed in Panama and it's hot down there and Bay Rum - we used to get the quart bottles of Bay Rum and - not for drinking purposes but strictly after a shower you'd put it all over you it would keep you fairly well cleared and you wouldn't get heat rash and all of this. Normally you'd try to find someplace where it was cool. �FRANK BORING: Which wasn't too many places I imagine. BOB LOCKE: Showers was the main thing. FRANK BORING: Once the airplanes started to come in, and as you say they were going through training and some of them were crashing and whatnot, what were the conditions of the planes? How did you rate the planes? How did you repair the planes? What was the actual work involved in getting those planes up in the air? BOB LOCKE: Well the work of course - armoring, you had to get the ordnance on them, we had to install radios in them, then they had the training things. One of the things that they had problems with was all these Navy pilots were used to making 3 point landings, in other words coming in and touching the wheels and the tail at the same time, well when you're flying a plane like a P-40, you come in and you make a transport landing, you come in and land on two wheels and then cut the engine and then drop it down, because you don't - as a matter of fact a few of the pilots almost washed out completely because they'd come in and - old P-boat pilots - here they're used to coming in at 20 feet in the air and rearing back on it and let it settle, they'd come in in the P-40's and you'd see them periodically and you'd say well there's another Navy guy and he'd come in at 20 feet in the air and chop it and it would sit there and shudder and go kaboom. Well tires would go, gear would go and ground loops, built in ground loops, this thing had. FRANK BORING: What was the interaction with those pilots? You're the one that's got to fix these things if they break them and here they are breaking them. What was the interaction between - they would come and say what happened here or what happened there? BOB LOCKE: Normally, it was - you know when Chennault set this up, there were pilots and there were ground crew and as he said, there’s no rank in this organization. Pilots are pilots, they've got their job to do, the mechanics have got their job to do and we're all working in �a small compact group. He said we won't have any differences, there'll be no saluting or anything like this and if you've got anything to say, you settle it between yourselves. If a pilot makes a boo-boo, you call him down for it because you're the mechanic and you've got to do it. Well they respected that and it's a funny thing, we got along well - real well. FRANK BORING: Can you give me an example of - not a confrontation - but something that a pilot did or something that a pilot thought you did where you resolved it? BOB LOCKE: Well, not a pilot, but there was - we had a Beechcraft out there and we had this ex-first class who was plane Captain on the Beechcraft. Well they came in and they ground looped the Beechcraft and bent a prop on it. Well, being a prop technician, Ricks had sent me out there. He was the head of the prop shop and he sent me out. Well I went out and I said "Well McClure I think we can straighten these blades and everything." and he got in a confrontation with me and we carried it all the way through with the Flying Tigers because every time I saw him, I'm a prop technician and I know my job and he told me get away from his aircraft so this was about the only thing that we ever had. Normally we didn't have time for any trouble and I give credit to the people that chose this group to go out there. One of the things was you had to be first class or equivalent to go out there and the mechanics were well qualified. I give them very much credit for the recruiting and the idea. We knew our jobs and we did our jobs to the best of our ability. FRANK BORING: When did you first meet Chennault? BOB LOCKE: The first time I saw Chennault was - he came in and Williams and Greenlaw and the rest of them came in with him and introduced him. That was about the 4th or 5th night that we were there and we just started to get squared away working on equipment because all of that had to be shipped from Rangoon too and he said "welcome aboard" and he was glad to have us aboard and everything like that �and he said he knows that we're gonna work fine together and he was very congenial. Of course we referred to him as the old man. That was about the first time I saw him was just about a week after we got there. FRANK BORING: What was your first impression? BOB LOCKE: Well I thought he knew what he was doing and of course being a mechanic I had things to do and I didn't spend much time in the offices with him. As long as you could stay clear of the old man, you were doing your job - it was okay. If you weren't doing your job the old man would call you out and he did. He didn't tolerate pussy footing around, he didn't tolerate shirking. In other words he knew his men and he knew his personnel. FRANK BORING: From Chennault came either instructions or - who usually carried those out - was that Greenlaw? BOB LOCKE: Well Greenlaw was the exec and he'd pass things down. Williams of course took care of the radio communications net. There were different pilots in charge and we had different former Chiefs in the Navy who were in charge of the working personnel, well they'd pass word down that way. But I used to see the General and I spoke to him quite often, the Colonel. And after we'd stayed in Toungoo for quite a period of time, then we started with the trouble and they had to get all that personnel out. They knew that they had bombed Rangoon, they were gonna hit Toungoo and we'd had quite a few fly-overs, so they figured that we'd move up the road and by that time our base at Kunming was ready and we set up a group of trucks, the first trip of trucks taking cargo and taking equipment up and Wayne Ricks of the parachute loft was in charge of this group and I was on the first group of trucks that went up the Burma Road and from that, that group, we picked up the name of the Burma Roadsters, we formed a club. Years later we were all gonna get together, so we published stuff and all and that was quite a trip up the road. �FRANK BORING: Before we get into more details about the road, what do you recall and when did you first hear that Pearl Harbor had been hit? BOB LOCKE: As a matter of fact, we were in Kunming. FRANK BORING: Already? BOB LOCKE: That's right. We'd had raids down there and we were in Kunming when we heard Pearl Harbor was hit. This truck group who went up the road… FRANK BORING: Excuse me then I got my dates wrong. Let's talk about the trip then on the Burma Road. BOB LOCKE: Well we started out and we went up and we had a different conglomeration of trucks. We had Ford trucks, we had Dodge trucks and we had Studebakers. Somebody had sold them a bill of goods and we got a whole batch of Studebakers. No Internationals, the British were still using these big Internationals. The Studebaker was fine but it had soft springs in the front and with a 4 ton load in the back of one of these Studebaker trucks, the nose would come up and you'd start out and you'd get about 10 miles an hour and it would start bouncing and you'd go from the roof to the bottom and bouncing and then you'd have to stop and start again, and you'd bounce, bounce, bounce. So most of us got out and we took 2 x 4's and drove them in between the front springs so you had no springs at all in the front, it was just dead. But that was the only way to keep them from this solid bouncing. Studebaker trucks, one trip up the road and you could wash them off - I mean we didn't try to except local trips those that made it - but they'd break the back of them. Fords and Dodges, overloading, loading front - they'd break the back. I mean you were hitting potholes that were 2 and 3 feet deep. You'd hit them and you'd go through them, if it didn't blow a tire, it would bust a spring. This was one of the casualties on the road. You had all different nationalities driving. You had Burmese, �Anglo-Burmese, Chinese, Anglo-Chinese, British - and each had a different stint for driving on the road. The Chinese would go up hills and of course hired, they would gas up and of course you'd gas from drums of gas, different gas stops and the Chinese would start down a hill, they'd reach up and cut of the ignition to save a pint of gas and then they'd sell it up at the end of the road to get money out of it. Well of course when you cut off the ignition, you had no power brakes or nothing and they'd go screaming down the hills and this was one of the constant things you were watching the guy in front, looking for some guy trying to pass you on a road that would have only one truck. And there's drop-offs all the way down. It was a rough trip. FRANK BORING: When you arrived there, what did you find in terms of the conditions? What were your feelings as soon as you got there? BOB LOCKE: At Kunming? FRANK BORING: Right. BOB LOCKE: Well it was a long tedious trip up the Burma Road and of course through the roads of China, across the Salween River, through Powshan and it was well over I'd say 2800 miles up the road. That's from Toungoo up through Mandalay and you had all different types of areas that you went through. When we arrived in. Kunming, here was this beautiful hostel downtown. It was a former school and it was a beautiful hostel. Well that was the Number 1 hostel and that was downtown in Kunming. Now they were just setting up the second hostel which was closer to the airdrome. So we took all of the stuff and put it at the airdrome and they were still working on the mat when we arrived and the Chinese were out there breaking rocks - big rocks and breaking into little ones and then put them down and mud and then roll it - and teams rolling it. They made a beautiful runway. Of course dust and dirt and all. But we had no Marston matting which they used in World War II �which would have been wonderful. But the Chinese did this all by hand continually day in day out, rain, sun, anything. FRANK BORING: When you started to get settled in, in Kunming, what was your routine like there? BOB LOCKE: Well the routine there was working at the airdrome, setting up the prop shop, we had a prop shop which was between our second hostel and it was an old Chinese Army base and we set up the different shops there. We set up the prop shop and then one of the first things we tried to find was a good shower, which we had and excellent cooks. We had an overseas Chinese in charge of our food and he fed us good and we had real good food. Now going up and down the Burma Road, was of the things you learned was chow fong, which was fried rice and if it was cooked, you wouldn't eat the normal food, but you'd go in and order chow fong. That's what I subsisted on all my trips up and down the road, was Chinese tea and chow tong. As long as it's cooked, you don't have to worry too much about it. FRANK BORING: So once you were, you mentioned earlier that you started seeing observation planes. BOB LOCKE: That's right. They'd send observation planes over and we would try to alert aircraft to get up and shoot them down. When they would 'fly over then we would get the word from the net, the fact that there was movement coming in from Hanoi, they had taken Hanoi by that time and they were moving in. And all the way from the China border, the radio net would keep telling and you'd sit around and they would have one ball, two ball, three ball, jing bow which was bombing. And it was your alert system. Well they'd run up one ball and nobody would pay any attention. A two ball, you'd start clearing out and a three ball meant it was imminent and they were in the area and you didn't want to be in the city because they were bombing the city or they would bomb the airport. So what you'd do is you'd go through the city and get on the outskirts and �on the outskirts in most of the cities in China, they have the graveyards and you would go into the graveyards, because that was - burying on the surface the mounds, you had almost a perfect bomb shelter. And you'd lie back on this grass in the graveyards and watch them fly over. FRANK BORING: Can you recall the first time you saw the cities actually being bombed? BOB LOCKE: Well one of the trips they hit Kunming and I was on the outskirts there. But I was coming up the road during Powshan, which was in May I believe, early May, and I came up to Powshan, I had a tow truck convoy with me, a Chinese driver and myself and I had Kitten with me that day and I had parked and gone over to the hostel and got food at Powshan hostel. I spent the evening there and the following morning I was getting ready to go on up the road and talked with some of the pilots and they had flown in a bunch from down below, from Loy Wing and they had arrived at Pow Shan airport and they were there and the pilots came in and they were eating. We were talking and about that time the alarm went off. When the alarm went off, pilots started to scramble and take off and the airport is quite a ways away and they were gassing up, and Charlie Bond is one of the only pilots I believe, got airborne that day. He got into them. But they got over Pow Shan and there must have been 20 or 30 aircraft - bombers. They came and we immediately took off out of there when we saw them coming over – and we said those are Japs and he took off and Benny Fuchet was with me. We ran through the gate which was down about 1/4 of a mile - or it seemed like a 1/4 of a mile then, but it must have been a couple of blocks - but anyway the gate was there and we ran down and went out into the graveyard, Benny Fuchet on one side of a mound and me on the other and there was a little pond there. Well they hit this pond with these grass cutters, which are bombs with a stick on them, and the grass cutters came down and it blew me in the air. I got a little piece of shrapnel in my chest and I came back down and I says "You all right Benny?" Well he moaned over �there. Well another fellow and myself ran over and Benny was over there and both of his legs were blown off and must have got a direct hit. We put him on an old door and took him back to the hostel and Doc Rich worked on him, but it was to no avail. It was really frightening. Well we stayed there and about that time - when we first went out, you can dig with your stomach because they've got these ditches that the water runs down from the mess hall, and we immediately hit one of these. They're about 4 inches deep. But we found that the safest place after the first lot came down, we hauled [?] because there's intervals between the bombings. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned Kitten earlier and I didn't realize that you had met her before all this went on. When did you meet her? Tell us about Kitten. BOB LOCKE: Well one of my trips up the road - now of course as Chennault saw me and being we had 5 prop technicians and we were tripping over each other in the prop shop and Chennault needed somebody to run truck convoys - in other words, single trucks or a group of trucks, up and down the road taking stuff back and forth. He asked me if I'd like to do it and I said sure and so I got an increase in pay and I turned out to be running truck convoys. One of my trips down to Lashio, which was like a border town - I mean the frontier westerns – everybody had a gun, everybody was mixed. They would go around, there'd be shootings, there was music going and blaring. We came out one night after eating there in a restaurant and these two Burmese drivers were coming up the road with this cat - this Snow Leopard and they were towing her with a rope and beating her with a stick and I told them not to beat on the cat and they said it's none of your business, it's not yours, and I said, "How much do you want for it?" Well they said 35 rupees. So I fished in my pocket and gave them 35 rupees and took the cat and took her over to my truck. Well I opened the canopy on the back of the truck and put the cat in there and tied her on and these guys walked up there with me and they saw I had a load of - of course we're cumshawing anything we can - cumshaw is anything you can get, �you take - and I had Eagle brand condensed milk, cases of it. And one of the guys said, "What do you want for a case of the condensed milk?" and I says 35 rupees, so I got the cat for a case of condensed milk. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Locke, Robert P. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-07 Title A name given to the resource Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 2 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke discusses his experience doing mechanical work for the AVG aircrafts and working with the pilots. He also discusses his first impression of General Chennault and hearing the news of Pearl Harbor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c0d41d64f2785c705337d6f676fa706.mp4 41dfeae6015eceb38e0ab23a684df2f5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac888de5e46ede7df793a890fb0879c9.pdf ab6157be01793442dba5b8f43bfdbc7a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Robert “Burma Bob” P. Locke Date of interview: February 7, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: What were you doing prior to AVG? BOB LOCKE: Well just before AVG I had the prop shop at Anacostia in Washington, D.C. and was working in the prop shop and this Commander came around one Friday afternoon and wanted to know "do you know all about props" and I said of course I've got the prop shop. He said "do you know how to work on the governors?" and I said yes. He said "would you tear down a governor for me?" I said "It's Friday and I'm cleaned up and I've got liberty for the weekend and I" and he said "I've talked to quite a few other personnel here and how would you like to go to China?" and I said "China, what for?" and he said "We're forming a group to go to China. We need propeller technicians." I said "Well I don't know, I just started shore duty here and I've got a good thing going." and he said "Well it pays $450.00 a month." and I said "Well I'll think about it, I mean it's not the money, but making $99.00 a month as a First Class here, I think I'd be glad to go." I asked him who else he'd talked to and he said one of the ordnance men, Hook Wagner and he said one of the mechanics, Gallagher and he said Jackie White who works in the parachute loft and Twisty Bent. And I said wonderful. Said when do we go? He said "Well go to the Skipper's office on Monday morning and go in and tell him you're supposed to get out of the Navy." Needless to say (Monday morning at 8 o'clock we went to the Skipper's office and he wanted to know what we wanted to see him �for and we said we're supposed to get out of the Navy, we're going to China. He threw us out of the office.) Well we got on the phone and gathered together and we called New York, CAM CO and we got a hold of the Commander and he said "Well I'll be down there this afternoon. I'll get a Beechcraft and fly from Floyd Bennet and I'll get down there as soon as I can." So we figured we got a raw deal here. So he came down, we saw the Beechcraft land and pretty soon we got called in the office. The Skipper came out of the office and he says "Okay Herb, anything you want Herb. You guys get your gear together. Get over at the State Department and get your passports. Come back, by that time the paymaster will be ready and you'll be paid off and you're on your way_, to China." So that was how we got it. FRANK BORING: What was it that interested you? What did you know about China, first of all before any of this? BOB LOCKE: Well I'd done a tour out there, I'd gone out there previously on a short cruise, I went out there. I shipped in the Navy in '34 and did two years in Panama and then I got a stint to go to China, but I was on a kiddy cruise, which is before 21 years of age - one day before you're 21 you can get out and make up your mind. As you ship in at 17, you're what they call a kiddy cruise. So I went out there and I couldn't stay out there because I was on a kiddy cruise. So I came back. But that was my first seeing of China. Of course that was in Singapore and we didn't get to see much of China properly. The idea was that the way that they presented it to us, is that eventually we're going to get into this conflict and that we need personnel out there. He explained to us that it was a special order discharge from the government, from the Navy. When it was all over and if we went into the war or if you completed your contract by 1942, which was a year's contract, we could come back and with no loss of rank or rating or no loss of time - just that time was lost - but that was the thing. So we agreed to go and of course it was adventure. We didn't have any ideas of what was going on. We'd heard a lot about that, but it was a good chance to do it. �FRANK BORING: Now you arrived in China by boat, what was the ship trip like? BOB LOCKE: Well we arrived in San Diego - I came to San Diego, drove to San Diego and then our ship was going to leave from Long Beach on May 21st and it was the 2 S.S. Zaandam, and it's a Dutch ship. They were taking the Lockheed Hudson bombers that they'd got lend-lease from here and they were going to Java. They were going out there that way and that was how we got our transportation, it was arranged. So there were 46 crew member, enlisted personnel and crew members. It was a mixed· bag of some Army clerks and they were mostly Navy mechanics and there were 16 pilots aboard. Bill Bartling was in charge, he was the Senior Pilot and most of it was Navy. As a matter of fact Tommy Hayward, Jernstedt, quite a few were on board, Duke Headman, was aboard the ship. And that was the S.S. Zaandam. Well, of course, when we got our passports, they designated us different professions. I was a draftsman, Gallagher was a hairdresser, Jackie White was a cook, Hook Wagner - Hook went out as a – what do they call the ones that work on women's - masseuse - that was what he was. Well we got aboard the ship and when we got aboard they immediately said "you're missionaries" so we decided we'd be missionaries. FRANK BORING: We'll start from the beginning of who was what, because when you say masseuse we don't want to have my voice. That's good, that's real good. So just start from - you were - the need for secrecy. BOB LOCKE: Well I went out and our passports said that I was a draftsman, and of course I hadn't held a drafting tool in my hands since high school. Jackie White was a hairdresser - no Jackie White was a cook, Gallagher was a hairdresser, Hook Wagner was a masseuse, this is how we went out. Of course when we got to the West Coast, we all went down to get aboard the ship and there we were told by Bartling, you're all missionaries. So we started out and by the time we hit Honolulu and we had of course opened the bar every day and all of the missionaries stayed out and we were in there telling �jokes in the bar and they were listening to the jokes, but by the time we hit Honolulu, we were turned into traveling salesmen. So when we hit the Philippines we were back to missionaries and when we got to Singapore, we had to wait there because we went overland, we were the first group that went and we went overland and caught another ship on the far side of - now it's Viet Nam - but it was on the other side of the China Seas. When we were in Singapore there was nothing to do, except the bar was open all the time and you get tired of that. So we wandered around and I ran into a mechanic that was flying the Brewster Buffaloes, he was out there as an Aide with the Navy and they were turning the Brewster Buffaloes over to the British. At that time, having nothing to do, we tried to get acquainted with young ladies and of course we got the cold shoulder. So one of the guys came up with the smart idea and we let it be known that we were talent scouts and we were from Hollywood and we were looking for talent, we were going to have a dance contest on the following Saturday at the New World. Needless to say, we had many people - "oh are you with this group of talent scouts" - and "I'd like you to meet my daughter" and we had it made then. Of course we had the thing and Big Jim Regis was our photographer and took -film after film after film, panning the whole thing and he didn't take one stitch of film because he didn't have any film in his camera. When we got on the train and we went with a bunch of British troops and across and Hanoi was where we came out the other side and from Hanoi we caught a tramp steamer and over to Rangoon, then up the Burma Road to Toungoo, which the base had just been set up and we arrived in Toungoo and of course nobody knew what they were going to do. We sat around and they hadn't started to get the P-40's yet, they still hadn't come in from the docks. FRANK BORING: What were your first impressions of arriving in Toungoo? BOB LOCKE: We heard that it was a valley of white man's death and there were so many different brands of snakes out there. One of the statements was that there were 99 poisonous snakes out there and out of the �99 poisonous snakes, there's 100 total, but the 99 are poisonous and the other one eats you whole, so we didn't know what - and of course we'd heard about the Cobras. Well because of possible bombing we had the barracks set aside from the chow hall and they were long thatched type roofs - open with shutters so that we would get fresh air or we could cut out the monsoons if we got into the monsoons; which it rained continually, almost every day. The temperature was in the 100's continually, the humidity was in the 110's, I don't know how it could, but it was - it was continual - you moved, you sweat. This thatched roof, all kinds of varmints used to get up in the thatched roof and at night you'd hear slithering and a cobra would be up there and he'd drop down on the floor. Well of course we had bunks with cots and mosquito netting and you'd tuck them in underneath it. One of the guys – of course we had jing bows periodically - one of the guys left his boots out with his pants outside and we had a jing bow about 2 o'clock in the morning. Jing bow is alert for possible bombing. He jumped up, threw on his boots, pulled his pants up and in the crotch of his pants was this scorpion and it hit him about 3 times real fast and Doc Rich had to treat him to deaden the pain. Old Sutherland used to run into all sorts of tricks - that was Sut Sutherland, that's where he got the name of Sut. So we'd go to the movies at night. One night I went over, we had the movies over at the chow hall, and I started over and there was a path you usually walked around the roads or you cut across, and I started cutting across with a flashlight and ran into this cobra. He puts up his hood and I froze, turned around and retreated back. But you couldn't tell where they were gonna end up. The first day we arrived, one of the guys stripped off and of course they had the bathroom in between two sections and bunks on either side and this guy took off and went in there just with a towel around him and started in the urinal, and they had built this beautiful cement urinal. Well as he approached, 5 stretched out full length in this urinal was this cobra, so he screamed and everybody grabbed their guns, all types and sorts, and went in there and started blasting at this cobra. Well we blew the urinal completely �apart. But the cobra slithered out a hole and disappeared. Needless to say, our aim wasn't very good. FRANK BORING: What were your first duties when you first arrived there? BOB LOCKE: First duties was to get gear squared away and set up the shops and prepare for the planes which were going to come in at any time. Some pilots started arriving and then our first aircraft came in. We set them up, we had to put the radios in them because they were completely bare and of course they'd just been put together to fly up, just the initial flight up there. We had no guns on them or anything like that, so spent all of the days preparing the aircraft for actual combat. Mounting the guns, the radios that we used out there at the time, because we didn't have too good a stuff, we had automobile Motorola's and stuff like that that we were using receivers and stuff that were just adequate stuff. Most of the things we put together and too, we were trying to train Chinese crew and we were assigned so many personnel with us. They started the operations and started training - training flights, we had a few training accidents. One of the things they found out with this P-40 was that it had a fuselage tank and then wing tanks. Well what you did was you took off on your fuselage tank, this was according to the pilots - and you'd take off on your fuselage tank, then switched to your wing tanks, then you would switch back onto your fuselage tank on landing. Some of the guys would take off and take their fuselage tanks and drain them, not switching. Well he'd start into a dive and the P-40's would tumble, just tail over - just flip. Well some of them said that was why we lost one or two like that and I think it was Charlie Bond was the one that found out about it. He was flying one day and he turned over and he got out of it and he said that was one of the reasons why, that they concentrated on balance, so of course with the extra weight in that nose, that old Allison engine stuck way out. This was what we did, we spent most of our time there. Of course, we'd go to town, the little town of Toungoo and we'd go down to the railroad station and all. The local Burmese they treated you as cumshaw - I mean they would �baksheesh - which means present and they'd hit you with baksheesh and all this. After the training we had our first raid in Rangoon and planes came in and we shot some of them down, the Japanese. At that time you'd walk into the train station and everybody would stand around, women and everything, AVG okay - bullshit - either they'd say "Okay'' or you know. FRANK BORING: How did you put up with the heat and the community and the snakes and the bugs - how did you get used to it? BOB LOCKE: Normally you don't - the snakes and the heat and all that - the one reason that we went out there was to - you'd shower as many times as you could a day, but immediately you'd be soaking wet and our uniforms, they used to starch them, well then we found out immediately don't starch them - I think that we didn't drink it, but we used more Bay Rum out there than anything in the world, and of course being an old hand from Panama, where it was hot too, we'd learned the old bottles, the quart bottles of Bay Rum, and you'd take a shower and then Bay Rum all over and of course that was one of the reasons you wouldn't get heat rash and all the rest of it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Locke_BurmaBob_1991-02-07_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Locke, Robert P. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-07 Title A name given to the resource Robert "Burma Bob" Locke interview (video and transcript, 1 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Robert "Burma Bob" Locke by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Locke was recruited to join the American Volunteer Group (AVG) from the Navy, where he was a Propeller Speciallist. He served his full term with the unit and was honorably discharged in 1942 when the AVG disbanded. In this tape, Locke describes what was doing prior to joinging the AVG, how he was recruited as a propeller technician, and his journey and eventual arrival in Toungoo. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a4f81441fa7c7fb2c5621416d005245.mp4 442d884f1551e108b384ad43b2875ca4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff012053b30b82e3200b6aa3f163b05c.pdf 7ebbdd561b51de57d6dc9be6fdaafaf8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] FRANK BORING: Looking back on that time when you were a young man and you were with Chennault and you were witnessing the bombings and you were seeing the atrocities and the horrible things that were going on within your country, what is your own personal evaluation of that time? CHENG YUAN LEE: Tell you the truth in the early part of the war I was young. I joined the Air Force at 17 years old and I know very little. Also I had already went into university, but I know very little. General Chennault I should say is the first one that actually got me into the knowledge of air power. For the first about 2 or 3 months, he wanted to get acquainted with the Chinese Air Force facilities and airfields and so forth. He would choose one of us five to go out to visit the various places with him. Most of the time Colonel Shu, he went with him because he was interpreter, but sometimes General Chennault wanted to fly. Then the Chinese Air Force we don't have multi-seat aircraft. The biggest aircraft we had was a Douglas two seats bi-plane, open cockpit. So he had to get me because I'm a radio operator also. He sits in the front flying, I'm in the back because I had to send the message back and that's how he choose me. Then he told me, he said "Henry, when I take off, when I give you the signal, you'll be flying straight and level." He got me interested in flying, although I wanted to be a pilot, but I never knew anything about flying before. Then it convinced him that I could be a pilot because I kept it straight and level good. Often �time he landed and he said "Henry, good boy." He is the one that actually educated me many things, not only the air force, in many things and this is the reason why I respect him so much. For a while I almost think that he is my father. He taught me many things and if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be a pilot. FRANK BORING: Looking back at that period of time now as a man who has accomplished many things in his life, that period of time when you were very young, 17 years old, 18 years old, what do you think of those times now? CHENG YUAN LEE: Later on because I had the opportunity of knowing a lot of high people, I even get close to President Chiang Kai-shek and be an Aide to President Chiang Ching Kou. I should say compares nowadays, those days I was a baby, I should say. I don't know anything, but now I know. And also I've been - I get myself in trouble often time. Not because of my mistakes, because of politics. Now United States has helped China a great deal, but a lot of things you people just don't know of the Chinese people. For instance, the Chinese people, during then I should say, half of the people are not well educated and many of them don't even know how to read and write. Their mind is simple. Their feeling is always straight. Although they started thinking but those thoughts would only go straight. China does need a man like a President Chiang Kai-shek. He is a man to tell the person "now, you do this, nothing else, but do this." Why? Because such a low educated people, if you don't put your thumbs on him, he go wild. He don't know even himself what he's gonna do. So a lot of Americans think that the President is a Dictator. He is treating the people not with a kind heart. No, it's not. He is very kind to the people, but when he want the people to do this, you do it, you finish it, you do as I told you. Because that's the only way to get a lot of the people to complete a thing. The Americans don't understand. The Americans, like when you are in your country, if someone comes to you like this, you'd get furious. You say what is a human right? But when you treat people like the early days on the mainland, the �farmers. What can you do? You do the work for him, do the work with him or you tell the person, you say "Now one, you do this, two you do that, and three, you do this." or you get nothing. FRANK BORING: Why do you think Chennault, an American, was so effective working with the Chinese people? CHENG YUAN LEE: Now, he came to China. Colonel Chennault he came to China. At the beginning, he don't understand also. Often time he talk to Colonel Hsu and I and the other three. He said "Why, the people like that?" We explain to him, we said don't misunderstand. He is not offend you. We explain to him the education, the background, the customs and the way we do things. Honest and true finds us like - an example, when I tell you, you're across the street, when I tell you to come I want to talk to you. I use my hand and do like this. Now when you want me to go across the street, you do your hands like this. Now only by hand gesture, two move are different to the Chinese. If you do to the Chinese, do like this. That means you look down at them. He is offended, he don't think you are a friend. We do like this to you, you don't feel kind of good. Often time you see people like this. Now we brought up a different custom, a different way for 1000 years. We just don't understand each other. Now this is the reason we explained to Colonel Chennault. He learned. Not only he learned, he asked questions. He asked a lot of questions, soon he become one of us. When the President told him something, he don't feel offended. He is happy to do that because he knows the President wasn't a Dictator. But to your people, many, many of your people, even with the President for quite a while, still think that he is different. So understand, to me, after I been with Americans for so long and I been traveling in 27 countries, understand is the first thing you learn. And it's a very hard problem. Don't think that that I understand what you say, that's nothing. You must understand like what I mentioned it, the background, the customs and the way we doing things, then you really understand. Don't try to say "Oh I understand what you said" that's nothing. General Chennault understood us and this is the �reason why he became so friendly to us and why the Chinese people love him. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: Like another custom in India. If you go along a road - I saw many G.I.'s in India. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 6 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses his time working with General Chennault and the AVG as a young man and why Chennault was so effective working with the Chinese people. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bcb8603220dd9ae201318bbca16ef18f.mp4 04e4ee933a46a633cd32e91c323b12c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b26bbfac0c2ebfd43ba882821637878.pdf 759f8cf99c30f7f0aaef7ea4c769e892 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: You got to know Chiang Kai-shek very well? CHENG YUAN LEE: He was impressed by a group of high military officers on the mainland just before we fall. FRANK BORING: What I need is your perspective. I see that Chiang Kai-shek had a very big task at this time - we're talking AVG period - we're talking 1941 -42. CHENG YUAN LEE: Japanese what they did on the mainland, especially in Manchuria it raised the patriotism of the people. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: When President Chiang Kai-shek started from Canton with his military cadets to push northward. At that time he had only two provinces (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: The wrong thing. They could have solved the Chinese by one by one, but what they did they invaded Manchuria, they invaded Shanghai and later on in Chinan. All the activities cost the Chinese people - especially the younger one - at the age that time like me. Give up civilian life and university and join the Air Force because the Japanese made us really furious and hate. Then on China mainland we have many warlords. Each one occupy a province, a �province is like your states. President Chiang Kai-shek at that time he probably could only command two provinces. They started from Canton and push northward. Everything was fine and smooth until he got into Shandong [?], the Japanese trying to stop him and that was the first tragedy that occurred. Instead of the warlords drifting away from the President Chiang Kai-shek, they turned around and told him that we will follow you. Then before the nationalists get into Peking - in those days we called it Peking - the Japanese invade Manchuria and they bombed the Commanding General, (Marshall Chong), they killed him. (Marshall Chong's) eldest son (Marshall Chong) [?], he was a very young, able general. He wasn't in Manchuria. At that time he was on the mainland. When he learned about that he went back to Manchuria. In one night the whole Manchuria had the flag of nationalists - he turn over. Later on he told the people, the Japanese killed his father so he joined President Chiang Kai-shek and when the Japanese invaded Shanghai, the whole country, all the warlords, they said yes, we'll be with you and this is how the Word War II begins. FRANK BORING: What about the Communists? CHENG YUAN LEE: Yeah including the Communists. Then… (break) FRANK BORING: Why don't you talk about the Communists? CHENG YUAN LEE: [?] was a Communist. At that time the Nationalists already had a very long war with the Communists. As a matter of fact, the Communists were driven away from Chiang Shi? province and the so-called 2,000 miles marching towards Yunnan where is now northwest of China and that time the Japanese invaded Shanghai Communist - Mao Tse-tung say yes, we'll join you, President Chiang Kai-shek and this is how the whole country was unified. Actually it was helped by the Japanese. �FRANK BORING: You had mentioned earlier about the Doolittle raid. Can you tell us anything about that? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Doolittle had an aircraft - I forgot the name - the B-25 took off from the carrier and raided in Japan and too bad that the weather turned out bad. Then General Chennault told me - because at that time I was in [?] to set up a radio homer station. Then General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, a very important mission - get your radio station on and for sure that it works." So I had the radio station on almost 12 hours and the B-25 follow our homer so quite a few of them laying there on the beach of the China coast. I'm sorry they lost quite a few, but the ones that landed on China beach was following my homer. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned also in another conversation about how pilots that got shot down over enemy territory would be rescued by villagers and you had a couple of humorous stories about that. CHENG YUAN LEE: Many stories could tell you how the Chinese people loved the American pilots. During then many American pilots were shot down in Japanese occupied territory. Many of them parachuted and they landed. The native people, the local people would do every possible way to help them to get out of occupied territory. For instance, one case, a pilot was shot down and the village people got him into the village. They know soon the Japanese would come in to search for the pilot and if ever they found the pilot, not only they gonna kill the pilot, but they gonna kill the whole family or even wipe out the whole village. So the village people, they get together and those days us Chinese people use wood and hay for cooking and heating, so every family has a little house to store the dry wood and that time the farmers they get a brilliant idea. They got pilot into the wood house, have him lay on the ground and sleep on the ground and they piled the wood all around him so the Japanese comes in, they don't find anything. They never even dreamed that under the wood was a pilot. Daytime he sleeps under the wood, at night time they let him come out and stretch his legs. Now another �case, the Chinese people's wedding, they're old fashioned. They would send the bride from one village to other village by sedan chair. A few of you perhaps have seen the sedan chair - it's all covered by - a chair covered by beautiful embroidery things - but however, in the line of the wedding, usually they have a monk, a parson, to make pray for good luck and so forth, so in the line in the front usually maybe a few monk, or as many as 10 or 20. Well it is true the Chinese people are so smart they made a pilot - a bailed out pilot into a monk. They shave all his hair and they rub dirt on his face so he look like more close to Chinese people and they put a monk robe on him and he join the crowd and become one of the monk and then walk through to the - we called - the neutralized zone and the people would turn him over to the guerilla and the guerilla would take him back to the rear where he based. Now often, like that, not only one. Your four star general, General (Dess [?]), he came over to Taiwan to visit us and he met his old friend and magistrate of our city that helped him and they two become real good friends. Many, many, stories like this, you should hear from them. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us any stories that you thought of whether they were humorous stories or touching stories about Chennault? What were some of your personal recollections of Chennault? Not ones that you think are embarrassing, but often people have said to me, including my father who knew Chennault of course in CAT days, that you never could say no to the old man. If he requested something you had to do it. CHENG YUAN LEE: Let me tell you this now. Both President Chiang Kai-shek and President Chiang Ching-kuo for 100% I should say they are Dictators. No one could say no. No one could even hesitate of what he said. General Chennault was so close to them and worked with them for so long, to my own opinion honest and true. At the beginning when he came, he was more American. About 2 or 3 years later he is more like the President. When he tell you to do this, you do it. For a Chinese - because a lot of us are illiterate and �if he don't have the authority or the power, lot of time you find the people would do any different crazy things and this is how the authority is more power than anything else. Now a lot of you people being Democrat, you don't understand. And this is one of the reasons General Stillwell didn't like President Chiang Kai-shek, they like enemy. FRANK BORING: Do you mind talking about General Stillwell and Chennault and Chiang Kai-shek? CHENG YUAN LEE: Well I prefer not. Later on General Chennault involved in that [?]. FRANK BORING: In your opinion, coming from your heart, in terms of Chinese history, in terms of your own personal life, what do you think the significance of the AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: Those days the Chinese people really suffered from the war. Especially from the Japanese air attacks. For almost about a whole year the CAF just cannot put up any resistance and the people's morale was deteriorating and then General Chennault formed the AVG and then came the victory. The people saw with their own eyes the Japanese aircraft was shot down. I can tell you this, during those days, the Chinese people were so excited, so happy, they almost do every crazy thing to celebrate when they saw a Japanese aircraft shot down. So in turn, when they see an American wears a leather jacket with two flags in the back and so they don't know who is American and who is a what - but as soon as they saw the jacket, they put up their thumb, Ting How - that's the only thing they could express. And I tell you this is true from the bottom of their hearts. Now this, the activity of the AVG not only bring up or boost the morale of the people, but they too boost the morale of all the troops. Now when the Chinese troops in the front, when they saw the Shark Fin, in those days the Chinese people call "The Tiger" because very few Chinese people have ever seen a shark before, so when they saw the shark's teeth, they say "here is a tiger" and this is how the AVG was so respected and so loved by �the Chinese people. They have truly boosted the morale of the whole nation and this is how I respect all of them. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 5 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses the events and conditions in China that lead to World War II, his personal recollections of General Chennault, and the significance of the AVG in Chinese history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1489cddad5e0be87b2ed9e107a139d53.mp4 a2a255377e0f2263565f1f9a7f7df68a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dea0f62fec6d6887d66bc82103c96ca.pdf 5148610256e9eceed6e744c5ecff81d7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] CHENG YUAN LEE: Now after I get back from States, I was for a very few months, about 3 months assigned to the Fourth Fighter Group, which is a station in Chunking, at first in Chentu and later on move into Chunking. During that period of time the Japanese sure bomb us very heavily. Often time they continuous bombing for 4 or 5 hours and the people just have to go away for a whole day because nobody knows when the Japanese will come in again. That was my very experience. I was in Chunking City and the air raid sound everybody called Jing bow - so we all went into the dugout, the hole - a big hole inside the mountain and I think in that dugout at least 4 to 5 thousand people were there. To tell you the truth, after the raid is over, which lasts almost about one hour, very few were surviving. I was one of them and I saw with my very own eyes and I had to crawl out of all the dead ones - over the bodies to get out. I was inside. Now lots of people - because when it gets more air they like to stay outside or nearby the dugout - instead of me, I go inside the dugout and the ones who by the entrance almost every one of them were killed. There's no way to running around because the Japanese continuous 4 or 5 hours in Chunking and Chentu. They had destroyed quite a lot of the buildings and city and all over the place. But even the airfield they bomb up. But I can tell you this, within half a day, mostly we work at night - we fill up the holes by dirt and rock and we use stone roller - 2 or 3 hundred people to pull the roller and roll over the dirt and the runway repaired again. The next day our aircraft take off again. That was �something that you should see, otherwise you don't believe it. How many people we use to pull those rollers, the stone rollers. The picture I show you even during the air raid, the Japanese were diving at us, how people were pushing the aircraft out of the parking line in order to save the aircraft and those were the pictures I took during the air raid. This is the hardship - the hard time we went through. FRANK BORING: We know why the AVG was eventually formed, but what we'd like from you is, from a Chinese perspective, you were the Chinese Air Force, you saw what was happening, you saw the bombing, you saw the fact that you couldn't even train that many cadets because it was constantly bombing the airfields and everything else, but if you could explain from your perspective the reasons for the formation of the AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault went to States trying to get aircraft for the Chinese Air Force but I think many times he just comes back with his head down and told us that he bump into wall. Finally, I believe either Dr. Soong or Dr. Kung got help from President Roosevelt's advisor - forgive me, I forgot his name. With his help that they be able to purchase 100 P-40's from the British Air Force. Actually those aircraft were being used by the British and probably the British was going to - send away or some way - but anyway they got the 100 P-40 and those days the Japanese were bomb us so often and continuously, we cannot help the aircraft to build up in any places in China. So this is how it gets into Rangoon with the British help. Then we had first I suppose one of our fighter group, the Third Fighter Group, pilot and mechanics went over there to put the aircraft together and have the Chinese pilots fly into China. Then the same time General Chennault had the AVG came and they went into Rangoon and they took over the aircraft from the Chinese pilots. I believe a lot of the AVG pilots they are from all over the service. Some from Army, some from Navy, some from Marines. (break) �FRANK BORING: We should talk about when you were in the States and letters you were getting from - anything you can recall about that? But at this time also, before he went to form the AVG, Madame Chiang Kaishek was brought in to evaluate the Chinese Air Force and then she eventually recommended with Chennault to form the AVG. Do you anything about that particular? CHENG YUAN LEE: I know about it but I was away in States then and when General Chennault trying to recruit the AVG, later on I learned - lots of them from all the services, Army, Navy, Marine and Air Force many of them they were in service. They request to retire from the service and join General Chennault. FRANK BORING: Let me interrupt you - while you were in the States in training, you said Chennault was writing you letters? Was he talking to you about the frustration of the problems he was having with forming the AVG? What kind of things did he say in his letters? CHENG YUAN LEE: He had mentioned several times to me that… (break) FRANK BORING: Who's he? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault had mentioned several times after he came back from States trying to get aircraft. He get almost resist from all over the place and because he was true friends to President Chiang Kaishek and Madame Chiang Kai-shek, often a lot of American high official misunderstanding by him and this is how he fails almost every time until he actually got the 100 P-40. FRANK BORING: What was Madame Chiang Kai-shek's role at this time? CHENG YUAN LEE: To speak of the Chinese Air Force, at the beginning was formed in Nanking, President Chiang Kai-shek was the Chief of Aeronautical �Affairs Commission. Madame Chiang, she was a Secretary of the Commission and Colonel [?] he was full Colonel and he was Director of the Commission. Then we don't have Air Force headquarters. We call Aeronautical Affairs Commission. FRANK BORING: What was the role of this Commission? CHENG YUAN LEE: Well actually this was a small scale Air Force, that's all, but at the beginning President Chiang Kai-shek and Madame were so concerned about the Air Force and so often they came in and sat down to hold meetings and so forth. And this how General Chennault was selected. I believe it was by either the Madame or Dr. Soong. Then he came over and helped us. He is a true friend of China. Later on, I had the opportunity to be with President Chiang Kai-shek and also become aide to President Chiang Ching Kou and very often I heard from them too that during the time we need the most, he came in and helped us and that's true, that's very true. FRANK BORING: Once the - Madame Chiang Kai-shek as part of the Commission, went around to the various air bases to look at the Chinese Air Force. When did you become aware that they were going to bring in American pilots to join the Chinese Air Force? CHENG YUAN LEE: Before General Chennault came, the Chinese Air Force, we already had a few flying advisors at the flying cadet school and before I was assigned to him, [?] then I know nothing about the Americans until the first day I met Colonel Chennault. Then us five were so close to him, he almost every day told us the progressing and what's the next future plans and so forth. So since then, I know pretty well about General Chennault's activities. FRANK BORING: You heard about and did you have an opinion about the International Squadron that came before AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: No, I had already gone to States. �FRANK BORING: But do you have an opinion about it - have you heard about it? CHENG YUAN LEE: I heard about it but I was in United States for flying training so I couldn't tell you much about it. FRANK BORING: If you could describe your relationship with Chennault - just in the early days especially. CHENG YUAN LEE: Well not only our two Presidents, President Chiang Kai-shek and Chiang Ching-kuo and Madame, Dr. Kung and Dr. Soong so appreciative of Colonel Chennault's help. The whole country I can tell you on the mainland those days, I should say about 1/3 of the people are illiterate. But if you tell him [?] they will tell you: Number One - Ding How. It's true. He treated the Chinese people like his own brothers and sisters and even the cooks, the drivers, were like his own family. Honest and true he is one of our true friends. FRANK BORING: What about your personal relationship with Chennault? CHENG YUAN LEE: Tell you the truth, I know lots about the Colonel's activities, but whatever he wants me to do, I do it for him. Human is human. You may do something, other people don't like it. I may do something, you don't like it. He is too. But whatever he do and he want me to help him, I do it for him because truly I love him from my own heart. He is so true to the Chinese people and this the only thing I could say. FRANK BORING: When you returned from the States in training and Chennault had now returned from the States to form the AVG, when did you then meet up with him again? CHENG YUAN LEE: I returned - I graduated in Thunderbird Air Force Base in United States, Phoenix, Arizona in May 1942. Then I was alone assigned to Army Air Force. Then you don't have an air force. I was assigned to Army Air Force in many different squadrons. In those �days they sent me to a different squadron almost every 2 to 3 months and finally I joined up with the Ferry Command and we flew B-24 from Miami Beach to Africa. Then someone told me that we are going to stay in Africa to fight the Germans and I said to myself, if I have to fight the Germans, I rather go back and fight the Japanese. Because then I already begin the hate to the Japanese, so I request from Africa to go back to Chunking. Then I get to see him and this is first time that the President Chiang Kaishek had me into his home alone, the first time, after I get back from Africa. FRANK BORING: This is 1942 or… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 4 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee explains the reasons for the formation of the American Volunteer Group and his perspective while serving in the Chinese Air Force. He also describes his relationship with General Chennault in the early days of the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/012533c38cb4d8a87fbf4f5ba80dd9a7.mp4 ad2e7cdb5cfe20f72b9bedd89c420480 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a21a6ab540144d8bec5b0e37d13c87f.pdf 2c83ddda902f801135ef40cedd7b08cb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: I'm gonna ask again, your reaction personally and if you observed Chennault's reaction when you heard about what happened in Nanking. CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault he's not a very talkative person. Lots of times he's quiet, but you can see that if he feels very sad and sorry, he will sit himself in the room by himself for quite some time and then sometimes even he lost his appetite. Now many times our Air Force was defeated, that's the way he acts and this is how in the beginning we learned how much he loved our people and in turn, I can tell you this, almost every one of the Chinese people - most of them are uneducated and when people mention General Chennault to them, they would say "Ting How" that means Number One. FRANK BORING: There's the rumor that has been talked about by many, many people. We asked the same question of Colonel P.Y. Hsu. (break) FRANK BORING: Just the last part about the Chinese people being uneducated - feel about General Chennault? CHENG YUAN LEE: Most of our people are not quite educated, but they all know General Chennault and if we mention it to them they will say "Ting How." �(break) CHENG YUAN LEE: Most of the Chinese people are not quite well-educated but however, they love General Chennault and if we mention it to them "Chen a De" they will say "Ting How." FRANK BORING: We asked this same question of P.Y. Hsu and I want your own personal experience. Did Claire Chennault ever fight in battle? CHENG YUAN LEE: No. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: During the period of war while all of us Chinese were with General Chennault, he did some fine, but never he engaged in any combat. This is what I know and I think all five of us would say the same. FRANK BORING: I want to finish up Nanking. When you first heard about the atrocities that happened - the buried alive and you had personal friends there, what was your - internally, inside - what was your personal reaction to that? CHENG YUAN LEE: When first I heard the tragedy in Nanking - because we used to stay in Nanking for quite a while and we are thinking of our friends there and I tell you, it really hurts me. Before the war, I never hate anyone. But after I heard - and actually I saw the pictures, the movie and the pictures - it really hurts me. When I saw the pictures I had tears in my eyes because we were in Nanking almost two years - a little over two years. And then later on when I get married, my wife and I stayed in Nanking another year and we heard very often the native people told us how they suffered through, how they lost their dearest ones and some of the spots we actually walked over there and went over there and paid our respects to the dead ones. �FRANK BORING: After you left Nanking, where did you go and could you describe what you were doing at that time? CHENG YUAN LEE: Since our defense system been so effective, so General Chennault he never want me to go away from my job. To tell you the truth, for almost 2-1/2 years I hadn't had one day off from my work and he knew that and he had it written in his book the way of a fighter. I'm the one that always stay on job and this is how he wants me to be a pilot and this is how I get my wings in the United States. FRANK BORING: Now when you left Nanking, where did you go? CHENG YUAN LEE: Nanking - then we went to Hankow for about two months, then to Hengyang. Hengyang I stay there about 3 months, then went to Chunking. In those days our transportation was very bad, very poor and we almost have very little air transportation. So all the traveling I had to done by truck. That's probably the most effective transportation we had those days and that takes a long time. FRANK BORING: Can you describe that, the road and the traveling and all that? CHENG YUAN LEE: The transportation on China mainland we had very little railway transportation. From Hankow to Hengyang I drove by railway. Then from Hengyang to Chunking, we drove by truck and with a lot of equipment, four of us. It took us a month and a half to get to Chunking and I tell you, all the road is muddy road, with rock and it really - you cannot believe how we went through those holes and ditches. Now five of truck that we started from Hengyang and one we lost because the driver did not control the wheel enough, that he just went down the slope and this is the way almost the whole way to Chunking. We lost a lot of transportation and those days we are really poor and really suffer. Many days we just get cup of Mantou - what we call - it's like your bread. You bake them and we steam them. We just get a few Mantou and that's all on the way and we didn't have a single meal of a whole day. That was really tough and hardship and to tell you really truth, when I get to �Chunking, I have lice on me because of no bathing. This is how the Chinese people suffer during World War II - the beginning part. FRANK BORING: Once you got to Chunking, what were your responsibilities and what did you have to do? CHENG YUAN LEE: After I get to Chunking General Chennault was assigned to our cadet school, the flying cadet school in Kunming and as soon as he gets to Kunming he think of us. He says "I have P.Y. Hsu with me now, I must get Henry over." So about one week afterwards, General Cho, our Commanding Chief, told me, he said "Henry, you go to Kunming and Colonel Chennault wants you." So I went to Kunming and I was assigned in a communication truck again. I got a real good decent communication truck. That's the first time I had one - proper communication truck. The rest of time what I had was a station wagon and was all portable equipment. FRANK BORING: At this time, what were your responsibilities, what was the purpose of your being there with Chennault? CHENG YUAN LEE: The Kunming school was training the flying cadets. General Chennault was there as Chief Advisor to train the flying cadets and I'm just part of the training, the communication training. And after I get in Kunming for about less than half year, I get my flying jacket and I went into flying school. That's what he want me. Then I went to States. FRANK BORING: During this period of time there was an attempt by Chennault to train new Chinese pilots to fight against the Japanese. What are your impressions of the effectiveness of this training? Were people graduating? What was your opinion? CHENG YUAN LEE: Before I left Kunming for flying training, or before I went to Kunming, I was in [?] for about 4 months. Then as I mentioned it to you that we had maintained about one squadron of P-36. General Chennault had two squadrons, Chinese flying squadron �there and he was training the P-36 and I went to [?] to help them, the communication training for about 2 months. Then he went to Kunming and soon I went to Kunming. FRANK BORING: While you were at the training period, was that the same time Skip Adair was there? CHENG YUAN LEE: Adair, yes. He was our flying instructor. We went to flying school in Kunming and our primary training was in Yunnanyi, it's about 90 miles west of Kunming and we had five American advisors, we call them. We had about 30 Chinese pilot instructors and also have about five American instructors and Mr. Adair was one of them. Now I have poor memory, I don't quite remember all of them. But Mr. Adair, after I got back from States, I met him again and this is how he give me a picture. We were getting along very good and they been very good to me. FRANK BORING: While you were there was that also the period of time when they had the International Squadron, when they formed the International Squadron? CHENG YUAN LEE: No, the International Squadron they formed just before the AVG, but I already left China and went to United States for flying training. I know, but I never met them. FRANK BORING: While you were there in training, were the Japanese bombing at that time? CHENG YUAN LEE: I can tell you this now. I was in Yunnanyi for nearly half year. I only had about 15 hours of flying - that tells you how bad the Japanese raided us. They just continuously - a whole day often time - we get a tin basin bowl for wash and after we wash we went to the kitchen and we about half full bowl of rice. Then we set off and go to the suburb and we just sit there and watch the raid for a whole day, eating nothing but the rice. Now this is the way it was �during the period of time when I was in the school. Now that time we almost had no air capability to fight the Japanese. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 3 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee describes his personal reaction to the tragedy in Nanking and his experience working with General Chennault at the training school in Kunming. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d2b3a52fd3da665f7b3c924d9de2549.mp4 88fc241da28c9a55a7f349252fa01b96 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e73c957abd3d6f827dde0eb08362bbb.pdf 96cdc9897b467d506a469c53931b0c1f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: Where did you learn to speak English? CHENG YUAN LEE: I learned my English in school (break) FRANK BORING: Where did you learn to speak English? CHENG YUAN LEE: I learned English in school and University. During the time I was seventeen years old, I always dreamed and wanted to become in the Air Force, so that year I went into Chinese Air Force and they sent me to the communications school. Although I wanted to be a pilot but they sent me to communications school. After training, the next year I was commissioned as Sub-Lieutenant. FRANK BORING: The reason why I learned English - like that. CHENG YUAN LEE: When I was seventeen years old, I joined the Chinese Air Force. They sent me to the Communications School and English is a part of our class because we had to speak over the radio by English and we also sent message by English and this is a part of our training. FRANK BORING: You've mentioned about Nanking and the spiders net around Nanking. Now this was somewhere around 1937. When Chennault first came there he had to work with whatever was in the Chinese �Air Force at that time, were you around when the Jouett, the American Jouett mission came through, or the Italians, the Russians or any of that? CHENG YUAN LEE: Actually we had five advisors. Now Jouett and all of them in Hong Chow, the flying school. Every now and then they came up to Nanking. For a short period of time, General Chennault and us went to Hong Chow also, but most of our time we were all in Nanking. FRANK BORING: Were you familiar with any of the other missions that came out to work with the Chinese Air Force, the Italians, the Russians, any of those groups? CHENG YUAN LEE: We had met many of them, but to tell you the truth when I was about sixty years old I had meningitis. My memory is pretty poor unless a lot of article I read all the times, otherwise a lot of the people's names and their face I have almost forgotten. FRANK BORING: Well let's stay in Nanking then. After the bombings of Nanking, did you stay in Nanking in '37 - ‘38? If you could continue about the story of Nanking. CHENG YUAN LEE: After the first air raid, the Japanese was very surprised at the Chinese combat capability and especially they were very worried about our defense intelligence system, so they want to know how we got the information of them and how accurate information we use. Then the second raid. After the second raid General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, you cannot go back to that same spot again. The Japanese might come in and get you." It's true. The third time six fighters were coming after me and I think the Japanese spy system must have been very effective - how they spot me on top of the mountain. They come in and strafe me and as I told you, I had the station wagon right in between the two huge rocks, so I just running around that big rock. They did not get me nor my equipment and after that raid General Chennault told me, �he said "Henry, you cannot go back to that place again. They're gonna have dive bomber on you." So the next I went to a different site and then I changed the site all the time. They never got me. And this is the first stage of the Japanese air raid. Pretty soon they coming, not only bomber but fighters and then we were kind of defeated because they had the super fighters. They have better maneuvering, better speed and so gradually, gradually we lost the battle. This convinced General Chennault that he must obtain some better aircraft from the United States. So he went back to States and tried many time. Often times he came back and he said "Well, Henry I bumped into wall." He failed many times. Finally we got the 100 P-40's - so called 100 - actually we be able to put together no more than 50 and those we get from the British Air Force, at Rangoon we put them together. FRANK BORING: Okay we're gonna talk about that in more detail later. Could you tell us about what happened after the Japanese had pretty much eliminated the Chinese Air Force because they had superior planes at that time. Did you have to leave Nanking - is this the period of time called "The Rape of Nanking?" CHENG YUAN LEE: We withdraw from Nanking - I have to think about it because I really have poor memory. FRANK BORING: You're doing very well. There was a period… CHENG YUAN LEE: We already left. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: Then as time goes on, we beginning lose the battle. Day by day we have suffered more and more heavy losses of our fighters. General Chennault met every flight that comes in after the raid and then we all sit down together to hear their story to learn what their difficulties and we trying to solve all the problems. I believe one tactic that General Chennault invented was two and two formation �and those days, at the beginning we call the scissors tactic. As we have learned from the combat pilots, they told General Chennault that the flight of three when they get into combat, the wing man is always kind of tied up. If one be able to maneuver freely then the other one is kind of have his eye or hands tied up. (break) FRANK BORING: So the pilots are saying this is what happened and it all came out. CHENG YUAN LEE: After every battle, the General would sit down and talk to everyone and this is how the scissors tactics was amended. He then after quite some time of studying and talking to the pilots, he finally come up with a solution, to have the fighters take off two and two, instead of three and also maintain information two and two. In those days we call it the scissors tactics. If the right two is attacked by enemy, the left two would turn around and head on to the enemy. If the left two was attacked by enemy, the right two would turn around head on the enemy. If both are attacked by the enemy, then both turn around and head on to the enemy. It really protected our fighters a lot because those days the Japanese have the superior aircraft and this way it really cut our losses to much lower than they were. Now I believe this two system - the first is a spider web system and the second we call scissors system. Even today, although much improved, but still all over the world use this two system as main part of air defense system. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us about the last days of Nanking, especially how the airplanes were slowly being dwindled - you're losing more and more and how you had to escape? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault was very worried about we losing all our fighters and about 2 to 3 months before we lost Nanking, all our Air Force had moved westward towards Hankow and in those days we have only about half of Air Force left over, so he went back to States. He's trying to help the Chinese Air Force to purchase some new aircraft. But often he comes back and he says "Henry, I'm so �sorry I have bumped into wall." And finally we got the P-40's. At that time I think we have almost lost the big portion of our air strength and in a few months we have almost no capability to defend our cities. Then from Hankow we withdraw to Chunking. Then soon we got the word that we will have the P-40's. Now before the P-40's came to China, we had a few - the prototype of the P-40. You call it the P-36. They are fixed landing gear. The prototype of P-40. Those P-36 came in about one squadron and we had two squadron pilots trained for the P-36 and that time General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, I want you to be a pilot because I like you that you are so patriotic and brave because during air raid everybody run away for air raid and you stay on the job. So I want you to be a pilot." And this is how I get into flying. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear and what was your reaction to the fall of Nanking? CHENG YUAN LEE: Nanking falls after Shanghai fallen. The Japanese move into Nanking. They sure did a mass killing. They often - not only occasional once or twice - they often gave commands to people to dig a hole, a huge hole, and then said to the people, now you all jump in. The people jump in then they have other people come in to fill in with the dirt on the people. They just buried them alive. The Japanese did that many places in Nanking. They sure had hurt the Chinese people. So far of the ones I know, my age, very few people can forget what the Japanese have done to us. They killing our people by thousands and thousands. Some people in Nanking we know have told us that they are the few that survived and they said more than 2/3 of the people in the city either buried, shelled, or wounded. And this is what the Japanese had done to our people in Nanking. FRANK BORING: What was your reaction personally and what did you observe Chennault's reaction to be when you got the news about Shanghai and Nanking? �CHENG YUAN LEE: Really true. Two United States military Generals I respect very much. One is General Chennault and second one is General MacArthur. They really loved the people they helped. They loved the people like their own son and daughter. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 2 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses how he learned to speak English while in communications school and his experiences working with General Chennault in Nanking after the bombings. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09bfceb310740ec285d2344a5db1c441.mp4 ea7763eda055bac48f57255be435a3ae https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/315c78284e19ae475939877e4d48866d.pdf 6efeea2dda9b6e29af4b584648dd7ab8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: What was your background before AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: When I was seventeen years old, I was a second year in University. I always wanted to become an airman or a pilot, so I joined the Chinese Air Force. The Chinese Air Force sent me to the Communications School and I become radio technician, graduated 1936. The second year, 1937, five of us Chinese Air Force Officers, one Captain, three First Lieutenants and I'm Second Lieutenant, we received our orders to meet a very important person. We went to Shanghai, that's the first time we met General Chennault and since then five of us worked with him almost until end of the war. Today, Colonel Shu, he is interpreter, he is in the States and here in Taiwan, I'm the only one. The other three they sacrificed for the country. FRANK BORING: You studied as a Communications Officer, if you could explain in more detail what you learned during that period of time. Once again, before you met Chennault. CHENG YUAN LEE: Actually after I graduated from the communications school, I had only a few months of experience with the Chinese Air Force. To tell you the truth I don't even quite know exactly what kind of equipment we had in the Air Force, but when General Chennault came, we set up the advisory office. He was our advisor then. Then �he began to talk to all of us and he told us that his being in China was trying to help the Chinese Air Force to build up the combat capability. Then he told me he said "Henry, the most important thing for the Air Force today is to have a sound air defense system." At that time really true I don't even know what air defense system is. Then he said - he gave me an idea. Once we see the group of communication officers and men to help, we beginning to look what kind of equipment we have in the Air Force and what kind of equipment the whole country had. Tell the truth, those days we have very little equipment. We had very few radio stations and then we had very good crank telephone. Now some of the city and village equipped with telephone, quite few. A few of the village - maybe one village have only one crank telephone, so he gave us an idea. He said if we wanted to defend our Air Force the very first thing we have to have good information, accurate information. Then we could decide to tell our fighters, our pilots how to defend the invading enemy. So after about one week, we searched all over the places in the whole country and we got a little idea of what we had. Then General Chennault and a few of us started trying to sketch out what actually he wants. Then we come up first air defense net and those days we called it "The Spider's Web" with a radio station as the center and with all the villages and towns around it - was a circle about 150 kilometers. Some maybe 70 kilometers to the center, some maybe 150. Exactly looked like a spider's web. When the people in the village and the city, see the aircraft or heard the sound of the aircraft, they used the crank telephone and called in to the radio station to report. If they see the aircraft they would say "Heavy Aircraft", in those days they don't know whether it's a fighter, a bomber or what, but if they see a bigger aircraft they say "heavy aircraft" and they see a single engine one they say "lighter aircraft" then they tell us how many, about how high and that's what we get at the beginning. And lots of times when the aircraft above the clouds, they just say "I hear aircraft noise but that's all." Then when we collect all this information, the radio station would broadcast - it was open broadcast so the other net would hear and that's the way we passed �the air alert system. Then the second system we worked on had a very large net and we put up a flag pole. On the flag pole we usually had the first flag is heavy or light aircraft, the second flag would indicate the number of aircraft, and the third was the altitude of all the aircraft. When the first initial information came, we set that pole on the city on the map then every five minutes an arrow on the map. It indicated the aircraft goes direction. Then on the map two arrows, the gap of two arrows it tells you how fast the aircraft are. If the two arrows are very close we know that's slow aircraft and if the gap is very wide, we know that's a fast aircraft. That's the second part of the defense net. Then third is when we decide to have the fighters take off. At the beginning we draw a circle of 150 kilometers from the center. When the enemy reach 150 kilometers we would have all the aircraft start their engines. Then when the aircraft approach about 100 kilometer to the center, then that's an order to take off. At the same time the city and the town will have air raid ball and those days we called - the Chinese call Jing bow. Then we have three ball to indicate the stage of the raid. When the first ball goes up people know the aircraft is about 150 kilometer from us, when the second ball goes up they hear the aircraft take off and also they know that the enemy is closing in, when three ball comes up, usually the people call red ball - red hot - everybody runs like anything to get away from their home or work or whatever, there's no protection. Now consists of those three parts: the recording system, the plotting system and the Jing bow system, the air raid system, put together that's the prototype of first world air defense system. And this is how we would [?] and for about two weeks we figured out and actually when the war starts it works beautiful. It surprised the Japanese, because the first raid the Japanese had six bombers to bomb Nanking, our airfield at Nanking. Four were shot down right in Nanking out of the six and it sure surprised the Japanese. They thought the Chinese were very weak. They don't think that we have any capability to be able to fight them. But it surprised them the first raid at least four were shot down. Now believe the other two were injured also. So the next Japanese worry is they gonna find out how the Chinese �operate so effectively and this is involved - I got in almost bombed. General Chennault, when he talked to the Chinese Air Force, (General Chu) and a group of high ranking officers, the very first meeting they had everybody know the possibility of Japanese invasion. So they decide to purchase some radio equipment for the aircraft and those days the very first group of communication equipment we received was 60 sets of (Phillip) airborne equipment. Then Colonel Chennault told me, he said "Henry, get as many people as you could and do the fastest job as you can to install all those equipment on the aircraft." And those days we have the Hawk II, Hawk III and Boeing P-12. The most of the Chinese Air Force are Hawk II and Hawk III with very few P-12. Then we had only 60 radio sets, not enough for all the aircraft, so General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, install one radio set in every 3 aircraft." Those days the formation flight for fighters and bombers were all in flights of three, so we would have one radio set in each flight, so that the leader could receive the combat instructions. We worked day and night. A group of us about 125 people, we worked day and night and we completed within one month. We had them all operating very effectively and at the same time General Chennault told me to install a portable transmitter in one of our station wagons. In those days the Chinese Air Force only had two station wagons, so we installed it in one first and then later on we got a second one. Then General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, you got my idea, now you go look for your own site. Where you think is the best site for the transmitter. It's a [?] just find one." So I made a surveillance around Nanking and actually I set up five antenna in five different places. The first antenna I installed on Purple Gold Mountain, which is I think the west side of Nanking, it's been so long now I forgot the location. Then I found two huge rocks, I set up the antenna on the rock. The very first raid, the Japanese - six bombers came in and General Chennault gave me the order through the telephone and I translated into Chinese to tell our fighters how high they should go and which direction they should go and I tell you it really surprised me that first raid. All our fighters got on the bombers and four were shot �down out of six. The Japanese were very surprised. How come the Chinese are so effective? And they want to know how the fighters be able to jump on the bombers as soon as they come into the circle of Nanking. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 1 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses his background before joining the AVG and his work as a Communications Officer for the Chinese Air Force. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8daba357ce094a1eb73ac78d7cdb7141.mp4 bf7d44cdff0047b1597fe4a1ee7e189b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24a21c0bd827f155197f7bd4a337b4a3.pdf 7870b23955aa3c11e9a156ba3468def0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Kenneth “Ken” Jernstedt Date of Interview: 02-22-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] FRANK BORING: The Madame next did you want to…? Let him finish what he was saying about Chiang Kai-shek. KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I don't know, there's a lot more to say about that. I spoke of it earlier in my little dissertation about escorting the Madame and the General around in southern China and northern Burma. I think there were six of us assigned that duty and it was an interesting experience because they wanted us to ward off any Japanese that might have known that they were in the territory - you never know those things - and we would land and they would go in and attend to their business, wherever they were and we'd stay out at the airplane. Once or twice we had lunch with them, ate the same cold sandwiches etc. that they had aboard the plane. He was always very quiet. She was rather more of an extrovert compared with him and you didn't have personal conversations with him, but you could tell that he seemed like a man with a lot of weight on his shoulders and he had the respect of the people that surrounded him. They also threw a banquet for us up at Kunming one night. You'd have to call it a State Dinner because he had practically the whole Chinese cabinet there, the Madame and the Generalissimo, and they threw a very nice dinner for us. They each gave a speech. General Chennault responded. I often wished I had a copy of those speeches or had privy to them and oddly enough, I have a book that somebody saw at a book sale for ten cents and it was all the speeches - several speeches - that the Generalissimo had made and �in that book were the three speeches that I wanted. One of General Chennault, the Madame's and the Generalissimo, and I have all three of those that we heard that night. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of Madame Chiang Kai-shek? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well she was a very delightful person and she called us her - what was her pet name for us? - Her "Little Angels" or words to that effect, her American Angels. She was always kind of half chiding us and she did this night - "remember, boys, you are Americans and you're setting a reputation here and I'm kind of staking my reputation, so be good, you guys" and most of us were most of the time. But of course you can't keep that many Americans completely on the line. But she was a beautiful woman, she was educated in this country, she gave a wonderful speech back in Madison Square Garden that night. I should not tell tales on some of my past friends, but - they're still my friends although they are gone - but I sat right behind Pappy Paxton and admittedly several of the fellows including myself - I had a drink I believe before I went on the stage, but some of them had more than that, and Pappy wasn't exactly feeling too much pain, but she would start to speak and pretty soon he said in this loud voice that we could hear on stage anyway - "this speech is way above the heads of this audience". Of course I kind of flinched a little bit and pretty soon and here was the British Ambassador sitting just one over from the seat in front of him - and she made a remark about imperialism. "That's a crack at the blinkety-blank British". Anyway it didn't bother the Madame and we had a great deal, I think, of affection for her as a person. I'd like to see her again. We were out there in 1963, they threw a big banquet for us in Taipei and were entertained by the Madame and the Generalissimo and they stood in the receiving line and shook each one of our hands, etc. I have a warm feeling for them, especially her. FRANK BORING: What do you think the effect of the AVG was on the Chinese people? �KEN JERNSTEDT: Oh that is extremely hard to measure. I had the privilege - I've been out to Taipei twice and I've been out to the mainland China once since that time. I think for two reasons, one I was in politics to a very small degree in Oregon, the State Senator, and I'd been a member of the AVG. We had been invited to Taiwan. I'd been there both as a State Senator and as a member of the AVG and when anybody there finds out that I was a Flying Tiger, why there's no limit to their show of gratitude. Even at this time, it's amazing to me. On mainland China, the same thing exists to quite a degree. When I was told that - see I had to pay my way and my wife's way to Peking - Beijing excuse me - and then we were to be their guests for two weeks and we could go anyplace in China that we wanted to go. I said I know that I want to visit Kunming. "Ah yes, Flying Tigers" and the older people of China still remember us and it's a good feeling. FRANK BORING: Given the battles you had to fight and all that, what do you think of the Japanese today? KEN JERNSTEDT: I have nothing but respect for the Japanese and I feel no animosity for them, either as a nation or individually. I certainly respect the Japanese as a nation and as individuals. I happen to live in area in Oregon that has a lot of descendants of Japanese people and I know them to be industrious, smart, hardworking people. Those that have been in this country are extremely good citizens. They're playing a very important part in world economy today and I think that bygones are bygones as far as the war is concerned. They were very quickly with me when I returned to the States. We were fighting those Japanese over there, not the ones in this country at the time. I know that's the people that you're referring to when you questioned me, but I wish that some of the younger people in Japan could realize really what this country did for them. FRANK BORING: Towards the end of the AVG there was a lot of talk about the morale missions that you were supposed to be flying and basically �just to keep the enemy - the enemy was out of the sky anyway and you were under a great deal of danger from ground forces. Did you ever find that you were disgruntled or did you find that the tactics that were being asked of you were unfair or anything like that? KEN JERNSTEDT: No I didn't think so, personally, because I had already gone through my share of, you might say, sticking my neck out on that kind of raid and some of them that were accomplished later, might have been stretching the point a little bit. But you also have to remember that those that made those missions volunteered to go on them. So it works both ways when you start discussing something like that. I know that when we were getting down to the last days, when were no longer going to be the American Volunteer Group, the U.S. Army was going to take over, it gives you a strange feeling when you really realize that this was approaching the end. But it was one of those things that you looked back on with kind of wonderment and admiration for some of the volunteers and that was shown at that particular time. When one or two get disgruntled it's sometimes easy to spread that feeling among others, and there was a certain amount of that, but I wasn't very close to it. FRANK BORING: You accomplished a number of things in your life. You're in your 70's now and AVG was only a part of that. You became a State Senator and you were involved in other things. Where do you place the AVG in terms of your own personal evaluation of your life? KEN JERNSTEDT: Very high. I place the evaluation of the AVG in relationship to my life in a very high position because it has helped me in other ways. In politics, for instance, a lot of it is PR. People will say "Hey that Senator so and so, you know he was with the AVG" and the words Flying Tigers has been something that I like to have attached to my name in nearly any walk of life that I've tried to walk down. It's still with me and oddly enough, and I think logically enough, this year and the next year, which will be the 50th anniversary of our beginning and the 50th year of our breakup, it is rekindling a lot of memories and a lot of interest in us as a group. Of course we're �getting to be old fuddy-duds now, but it’s fun and I place it very high. It broadened my experiences, it showed me what I can do under fire and maybe some of the things I couldn't do under fire. It made friends for me that I've kept all my life and some of them that are extremely meaningful to me. So it's a lot better deal than some college relationships or business relationships or something like that, that's a very small group of men and a couple of women have in common that no other people have ever gone through. I just can't help but rank it very high in my experiences of life. FRANK BORING: Well I'll tell you something Ken, if I ever get to the age of in my 70's I'd like to be a fuddy-duddy too. You mentioned that the Chinese have reacted both in Communist China and also nationalist China about the Flying Tigers and they treated you very well. Why do you think that is? KEN JERNSTEDT: This feeling that I get from both the Nationalists on Taiwan and the People's Republic of China is really kind of interesting because they both call and consider themselves Chinese and there are people in both groups that have of course, a background that very few Americans and I don't understand completely. Their origins go way back in history. There's one small group of them living in Taiwan that had the same roots that the larger nation had in a larger area. So they have those things in common. At one time they had us in common. Part of them are over here in Taiwan now, a lot of them are over on the mainland. But we did fight for them all at one time in their lives and ours. So I think it's very natural for them to recognize this fact, that they do have us in common, that we were fighting for the Chinese, no matter where they were living. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Jernstedt_Ken_1991-02-22_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Jernstedtneth A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-22 Title A name given to the resource Ken Jernstedt interview (video and transcript, 6 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ken Jernsted by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. After resigning his officer's commission with the US Marine Air Corps, Ken Jerstedt joined a large group of volunteers leaving San Francisco under the cover of the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co. to join the AVG in 1941. He served in the Third Squadron "Hells Angels" as Flight Leader and had more than 10 victories against the Japanese. In this tape, Jernstedt describes the effect the Flying Tigers had on the Chinese people and his own life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd3a55e08f232d99c166716765bd4c6f.mp4 7760a1a0cb4a635d6a0efa98ed1984d3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/830f9db797b0aa28a5fa9f26fc1bee6d.pdf da6ffce1bf965cd67c7d9a09e76e3b6f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Kenneth “Ken” Jernstedt Date of Interview: 02-22-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: If you can tell us about the incident in which Third Squadron escorted some Russian bombers? KEN JERNSTEDT: When we left Burma and went back up into Toungoo to operate out of there for the rest of the life of the AVG, we had quite a bit of work to do around Toungoo. We were on night alert. We made some trips to different areas. We did daytime alert in case we got bombed. We escorted Generalissimo and Madame around in a DC3 on a tour of northern Burma and southern China. But one mission that I'll never forget was one that we were sent on to escort the Chinese bombing of Hanoi. There were some old Russian bombers that the Chinese Air Force had and I do not remember their name. They were a twin-engine, fairly high wing, monoplane type, older than the hills. We got into the air - as a fighter squadron we had to stop at a base in the south of Kunming - I can't think of the name of that place right now - for gas and then climb back up and escort them the rest of the way to Hanoi. Those things were so slow that we had to throttle as far back as we could in the P-40 at that particular altitude, I think it was around 18 or 20 thousand feet, and make circles above them or we'd stall out. They were going so much slower than the slowest speed of the P-40 that we had to use up our gas in circling just to escort those dudes. We got to Hanoi finally and they dropped them into an overcast. I never did know whether we did any damage or not and I don't know that anybody does. But we had to come all the way back and this time �we tried to make it straight to Kunming without refueling and some of the fellows, I think 2 or 3, ran out of gasoline taxiing back to park and I had enough maybe for ten more minutes of flying at the most. It was a very close and maybe a hopeless mission but I'll never forget that bombing of Hanoi by the Chinese with Russian bombers. FRANK BORING: As you got closer and closer to your contract running out, what was the attitude of the Third Squadron about it? What were you thinking about in terms of wanting to go home, were you wanting to stay? KEN JERNSTEDT: A lot of us had mixed feelings. We felt in some ways duty bound to stay. We also felt duty bound for our own good to go home. We'd been out there under pressure for several months and we did not know for sure just exactly what we wanted to do. I had Marine Corps leanings. I was offered a Majority out there. The Army made a very fair offer to me. My goodness, I left the Marines as a Second Lieutenant and here less than a year later I was going to be offered a Major's Commission, which was fair. Tactics began to be used that some of us didn't like. General Bissell came in and we had a group meeting. He stood up in front of the group and more or less threatened us and said "why if you don't go in, you'll be drafted when you go home." I sat there thinking about the draft board in Yam Hill County* in Oregon and thought well that would be awful stupid if those guys are going to draft me and I really didn't think they would, but it was something to think about, I'll have to admit. But also personally about that time I had some trouble. I had a series of boils and what the Chinese doctor and Doc Richards said was heel diarrhea and I had diarrhea, I'll tell you that for sure and I was off of flying status. So that made me all the more anxious to go home. I was down to about 145 pounds and I though Jernstedt, for your own good you've got to get back to the States. Well my good friend, Charlie Older, as luck would have it, had an appendicitis attack at that same time and he was operated on for that problem, had his appendix removed, and we both began �to feel a little bit better. As July 4th came upon us we went to the old man, excuse me, Colonel Chennault - General Chennault, he was by that time - and said, "General, everybody's going to be trying to get out of here on July 4th and how about, we're off of flying status, we haven't been on for two weeks, how about letting us have a week's head start and leave if we can?" He said "Fine, you guys have it coming." So he signed the papers and Charlie and I left a week earlier than mainstream. Some had left a little bit before. We flew the hump, got a ride on a DC-3 Army plane and went into the airport - I've forgotten the name again - on the far eastern part of India and then went into New Delhi. We holed up there for a week trying to get a ride on to Karachi, and finally we hitchhiked a ride to Karachi. We had just about given up hope for any chance of flying the rest of the way, when a pilot from - well he was a chief test pilot for Pan Am Africa - came into Karachi and Charlie and this fellow recognized each other. They had met when Charlie was on one of the first ferry hops that anybody made, when they had gone clear to the west coast of Africa to pick up some P40's early in the game. Charlie and Tom and McMillan and R.T. Smith and Paul Green and Link Laughlin. I had missed that flight because I was a Flight Leader and General Chennault said you have too many Flight Leaders, so our names went in a hat and mine came out and Link Laughlin took my place, he was a wing man at that time so I didn't get to go on that one. Which was good in the long run because I would have missed a lot of action that I saw later on. But this test pilot was a great guy and he said "What's the matter?" and we said we can't get out of here - "why not" - well we can't get any priority and we can't get any passenger room on any flight. He says "well I'll fix that" - well how? He says "You'll be prospective employees - that will be the priority." By that time there were about 18 or 19 of us piled up there including our female nurse, Emma, what was her last name, can't think of it right now but anyway he wrote out a ticket, I found that thing the other day on Pan Am Africa for all of us, each one of us and we went clear across the Persian Gulf, where they're now fighting, gassed up awfully close to - I wonder what point of that we did pick up our �gasoline. Crossed into southern Egypt and then over to Accra*, Africa. Stayed there about 3 days and then caught a ride on a B-24. By that time 4 pilots were together and I really don't remember what happened to the rest of them, but 4 of us split up on 3 B-24's that were flying crude rubber from Africa back to the States. John Farrell and I flew together, we flipped to see who was going to have company and each one of the other fellows got in the other planes and we headed across the South Atlantic and landed in Brazil, made another stop at the mouth of the Amazon, went on up to one of the other islands - I forget the name right now - and went in at West Palm Beach, Florida and crawled off the B-24 and started home on a train. But we kind of proved that General Bissell was wrong. I went home and the first thing I did was register for the draft and they gave me a discharge Veteran's rating. So I could have quit the war, I could have gone into farming, I could have gone into business, I could have done anything. But I recovered from malaria eventually - it took me about 6 weeks - I caught that on my way home, and had a real battle with it for a while until they discovered for sure what I had. Then Republic Aviation contacted me and they were looking for test pilots that had combat experience and there weren't too many of those flying around in those days that were available. So Parker DuPouy, one of my good Army friends from out in the Third Squadron was already established back there, he urged me to join him, so I went back there and looked the situation over and ended up as an experimental test pilot the rest of the war. FRANK BORING: Looking back on that time now, the period of AVG, what do you feel was your own personal accomplishment about that time? KEN JERNSTEDT: I think I could tell a little story to kind of prove my point I think. While we had a good record out there, most of the members of the AVG did and I was very proud of that military record. But in retrospect there's no doubt that the main contribution of that group to the United States was the fact that we were morale boosters and I proved my story or my point by telling the story of the time that �Madame Chiang Kai-shek came to this country to give an address to the people of the United States from Madison Square Garden, national radio hook-up, no TV in those days. The Flying Tigers that were in the New York area, there were two groups of us, one testing at Republic, there were about 4 of us, and another group in the northern part of the island that were flying for American Express, Bob Neale and Bus Keeton, Bob Layher and Hennessy I believe was there and several others. We were called into New York to act as her escort as she came on the stage in Madison Square and this was a real political shindig because there were six governors on the stage, Wendell Willkie was on the stage, the British Ambassador was on the stage and innumerable numbers of people. We were all congregated off stage waiting for the Madame to come and this formidable group would arrive singly and in doubles and here came Hap Arnold, Commanding General of the United States Air Force, back where we were standing and we were all in our old AVG uniforms, and for some reason or other, I must have been closest because he kind of came up and patted me on the shoulder and said "when am I gonna get you fellows back?" I kind of looked at him and grinned and said "well General, in the first place you never had me, because I was a Marine, and you're not gonna get me." He kind of looked at me and laughed and then he said "well what are you doing?" and I said "well I'm an experimental test pilot out on Long Island on the P47 Thunderbird built by Republic." He gave me a pat on the back and he said "you're doing your part." Which I kind of agreed with because we actually lost a higher percentage of pilots in test flying than we did in the AVG, by losing I mean from death and he paused a minute and he said "you know you guys were pretty good and the records speak for themselves, you had a wonderful record out there. But I don't know whether you ever stopped to think that your main contribution to this country was the fact that you were a morale booster for this nation when we really needed one that would make us see some good ahead. Every place else we were getting kicked, in the Philippines, Australia, all over the world, in the European theater, there was no good news, except that little group of you �fellows out there and your main contribution is not the number of planes you shot down, it was the job you did as a morale booster group." FRANK BORING: You got pretty close to some of the guys there during the AVG. I realize it's very personal, but what would you say, what death affected you the most? KEN JERNSTEDT: What death? While we were out there? Well the death that affected me the most while I was a member of the AVG, was the one when Tom Jones was killed practicing dive bombing over Kunming Lake. Now I say that because our careers went along together for so many months. He was in the same elimination class that I was in in Seattle, Washington where they were bringing ten a month from five western states for training at Pensacola. And five of us made that and we went to Pensacola together and he was in the same class that I was there. I did not realize that he had signed up for the AVG until I got out there and there Tom Jones was again and we had been very good friends at Pensacola, saw quite a bit of each other and then out there we continued to be very friendly. I had met his folks up in Seattle, his mother and one of his sisters, I probably knew him better than most of the members, except Tom and Charlie Haywood that I had been with in the Marines. But as far as death is concerned, that was the biggest shocker to me was when he was killed trying to simulate dive bombing over Kunming Lake. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned before your two weeks that you spent in Los Angeles before you went to China - excuse me one week - you had talked to your parents and basically had seen the people around there - did you tell your parents where you were going? Did you say you were going to China? Or what did you tell them? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I as a young man I had always had the support of my parents in nearly everything I had done. I don't know that they always thought that I had all my brains about me some of the times. I �remember when I came home from elimination days up in Seattle and I didn't say anything when I hit the porch and pretty soon Mom said "well how did you do?" And I said "well I passed." And she stomped her foot and said "Oh I knew you would." She was kind of half disgusted, but still proud of me. When I got my wings she was still proud of me, I know from what I've been told. So when I made up my mind I was going to go out to China on this thing, I have to admit that I told her a white lie. In a way, I told her that I was going out there to instruct. Well I think I got more involved than instructing and I never did discuss that white lie with them after I came back and I think, I hope - maybe they just thought that well instructing led into fighting because those boys were out there so they might as well make use of them. FRANK BORING: Did you ever get a chance to meet Generalissimo Chiang Kaishek? KEN JERNSTEDT: Yes, several times. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of him? KEN JERNSTEDT: I liked the Generalissimo. He was very quiet, he was very aloof. He had a tremendous responsibility if you stop to think about it. Here he was the chief honcho of 400 something million people scattered over an area larger than the United States, three separate dialects, no real good means of transportation between the different areas except some beat up airplanes, no roads, no railroads to speak of and trying to carry on a war. I really felt sorry for him. I think he understood more English than he put on. I remember how - let's use the word nervous our Dentist, Dr. Bruce was - when the Generalissimo came into Kunming one day and wanted his teeth worked on and a couple of bodyguards stood by while this went on and Doc Bruce had quite a time. The one story I really like about the Generalissimo and the Madame, one day a plane came in - the DC-3 that they usually flew around in at Kunming - and some of the fellows met him at the airport and just by chance and they �didn't know who was on it and here came Madame Chiang Kaishek, who in her day and still is a beautiful woman, but when she was younger she was even more beautiful. But their secretary, who was also a very charming and beautiful Chinese girl and a couple of the pilots, I won't go into names, picked them up in a station wagon and they were anxious to use the plumbing facilities of one of the hostels and so the fellows were going to take them over to the hostel where they lived, Hostel #1, and as the station wagon started to leave the airport, the Generalissimo was standing there kind of looking at things and one of them said to the ladies "wasn't that gentleman on the plane with you, should we pick him up?" and Madame said "Oh no, let him walk." And they took the two ladies to the compound and when all the Chinese help around there started bowing and scraping they began to wonder just who they had and I think by that time they were beginning to realize that there was the possibility that it was the Madame and it was. But it always tickled me that she said "no let him walk." � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Jernstedt_Ken_1991-02-22_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Jernstedtneth A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-22 Title A name given to the resource Ken Jernstedt interview (video and transcript, 5 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ken Jernsted by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. After resigning his officer's commission with the US Marine Air Corps, Ken Jerstedt joined a large group of volunteers leaving San Francisco under the cover of the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co. to join the AVG in 1941. He served in the Third Squadron "Hells Angels" as Flight Leader and had more than 10 victories against the Japanese. In this tape, Jernstedt describes the attitude of the Third Squadron as their contract was coming to a close and the sense of accomplishment they felt as Flying Tigers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4473e7cd02c4d9b8248fc21fc6139858.mp4 e43ab690809c3e95e6908aa546f365f5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ea81bfb59ab7f48bff27b71c94828916.pdf cccca58e161c0ff2c9146be754030241 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Kenneth “Ken” Jernstedt Date of Interview: 02-22-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: Some of the maneuvering you had to do in learning about your P40, how did you rate the Japanese pilots as fighters? KEN JERNSTEDT: They were very efficient. That may sound like a strange word to use, but for instance… FRANK BORING: When you answer, I'm saying Japanese pilots, but you're not going to hear that when you see it. So all we need to do is to say "the Japanese pilots were very efficient" that way we know what you're talking about. KEN JERNSTEDT: The Japanese pilots were very efficient which might be a strange word to use to describe a military pilot but I use that term because I remember my friend, Charlie Older, shot down the leader of one of the formations and quickly another one moved into position. They were really trained. The airplanes, of course, were a lot different than ours. The I-97 was a fixed landing gear fighter that couldn't compare anywhere near to a P-40 regarding speed. But it was very, very maneuverable so you could not turn with it. The Zero was a light airplane for the gun power that it had, so it could climb very efficiently and was also hard for an American to dog fight against in a P-40. Their bombing formations always impressed me because they kept formations tight, if anybody was shot down they maneuvered to quickly replace that one, their gunners knew what they were doing all the time. I thought they were fairly efficient. �FRANK BORING: Before the war there was a lot of propaganda put out about the Japanese and in fact the military establishment was saying the Japanese weren't good fighters. Had you heard that before you went to China? Then you got Chennault telling you that they were good fighters and then what did you actually find? KEN JERNSTEDT: I found that the stories that I had heard concerning the Japanese before I went out there were entirely wrong. They had been ridiculed by cartoonists and by war correspondents…… (smoke alarm again). FRANK BORING: The Japanese were portrayed in a certain way before you got to China and then you saw Chennault a little bit more about the Japanese and then eventually you fought against them in the skies. What were the differences between those? KEN JERNSTEDT: The Japanese pilots we were told before we left the country were very inefficient, were not well trained, were cross-eyed and all kinds of things like that so we had an entirely wrong opinion. We arrived out there and General Chennault told us that they were good pilots, well trained, and we soon found that out and it was a rather rude awakening to a certain degree. It's amazing when you look back 50 years ago that this propaganda was being floated around, and why anybody would be gullible enough to think that it was a nation of people preparing for war and their pilots were no good. It just doesn't make sense in retrospect. FRANK BORING: How did you rate the Japanese pilots in terms of their tactics compared to yours and the ability of your airplane against their airplane? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I would say the good pilots were equal to our good pilots. They had a different type of airplane. They knew the advantages they had over us, just like we knew the advantages we had over them. They were on offensive missions, we were on defensive �missions. So our goals were different. We operated toward different goals, which in war time becomes very apparent and hard to really just determine who is the better because of the different types of goals. I think they knew their airplanes, they knew their capabilities and had lots of hours, many of them. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned earlier you wanted to say something further about your crew chief KEN JERNSTEDT: Looking back I have to grin about my crew chief, Frank Losonsky because the first time I was in combat, he seemed to be very delighted that he found, I think it was, ten bullet holes in my airplane when I came back. That didn't make me feel too good at all, but he was very pleased and it gave him a little bit of oneupmanship among the other crew chiefs. By gosh, his pilot got shot at and here's proof, here are ten bullet holes in Number 88. I didn't feel good about them at all, but he liked them. FRANK BORING: Later on, on March 21st there was apparently a revenge attack by the Japanese at Magwe and the bombings began, Parker DuPouy was leading a flight of six P-40's to Magwe. There apparently was an incident that happened to you involving Japanese bombers or somebody shooting at you and the glass just exploding in your cockpit and all that. Do you recall that particular incident? KEN JERNSTEDT: I recall those few days in March very well because it was two days before that, that Bill Reed and I had gone on a mission of search and so forth, down into the southern part of Burma east of Rangoon to a little airport called Moulmein and we'd done a pretty good job of destruction down there. In fact General Chennault sent us a telegram saying "Congratulations. You have set a new record of world destruction." I don't know now whether that sounds so good or not, but at the time, it was all right. The fact that we had been thoroughly successful, I think irritated them to a certain degree and maybe all we did was postpone what happened on the 21st a day or so. On that particular day, we were caught on the �ground at Magwe and when I finally got to my airplane and got it off, the bombs were dropping at the end of the runway and how I got there I still consider myself pretty lucky and I went out and gained some altitude and started chasing this bomber group and they were headed back to I believe as far away as Hanoi. It was that general direction anyway and I made passes at the formation and had been successful in getting two of them down and like a darn fool I had put my goggles up on my forehead because of peripheral vision, it was much better with the goggles off and there was no wind stream in the cockpit, but as I was making a pass at one of these bombers, a bullet hit my windshield right in front of my face and the bullet went into the armor plating right back of my neck. I figure it missed my head by about a 1/2 inch and this glass just exploded into my face and some of it went into my left eye. Well I immediately called that battle off and headed home and I was a very fortunate AVG'er at that point in time, because I couldn't see too well, had one eye left, but I was getting low on gasoline, I hoped I knew the direct route to Magwe and fortunately I had just reversed my compass heading 180 degrees and hit it right on the button and landed on the Magwe airport after it had really been pounded. I missed a crater on the runway in my landing and ended up, immediately went to sick bay and Doc Richards dug glass out of my eye and eventually the next day - well two or three things were very unfortunate about that - we had a ground crew chief by the name of John Fauth that was killed and another pilot that had been on one side in one trench that wasn't quite so deep and he thought he'd be safer over on the other side of the runway and he got up and ran and a bomb hit and it caught him in his neck and on his hand and he was in pretty bad shape. I spent about half the night sitting with him and then the next day they flew me back up to Kunming for some so-called R&R in the old Lockheed or was it Beechcraft, I forget right now. But anyway, John Hennessy was the pilot and I stayed in Kunming for about 5 or 6 days and then rejoined the group. Some write-ups have said that I had my windshield shot out as I landed at Magwe, but that's entirely �wrong. I lost my windshield about 200 miles east of there when I was fighting against the bombers. FRANK BORING: Talk about the raid before all of this happened. KEN JERNSTEDT: On March 19th. Well the squadron had been operating in Magwe for several days and Bill Reed and I talked to Ole Olson and said we wondered what the Japanese were doing down south as they approached Rangoon as far as airplanes and troop movements, etc. were concerned and so …(smoke alarm) FRANK BORING: On March 19th Bill Reed and you took off from [?] to attack a Japanese airfield 10 miles from Moulmein, can you tell us about that? KEN JERNSTEDT: By March 19th the AVG had more or less retreated up the Burma Road as far as Magwe and we were operating the Third Squadron with some of the members of a couple of the other squadrons out of that particular airport for several days and Reed and I were talking to Ole Olson, our Commanding Officer, and we began to wonder about what the Japanese were doing down in the Rangoon area and east of there. So we cooked up the idea of going down on a reconnaissance mission. So he and I took off the evening of the 18th and stopped at Toungoo, re-gassed our airplanes and went to bed there in our old shack that we had lived in in our training days earlier. We got up real early in the morning - I'll never forget that particular take-off because of the circumstances - it was still dark about 5 o'clock and there were no lights on the airfield at all and a single strip, but it just so happens that in that particular latitude, the north star was sitting right on the horizon, right down the end of the runway for me, so when I hit the throttle on the P-40, I just concentrated entirely on the north star as a guiding light and took off and when I felt we had flying speed we took off and went into the air. So that's the first time I had ever done that. We went in the general direction of Rangoon, we were up at about 20 - 22 thousand feet, and then went in on the south side of Moulmein and �began to lose altitude and were going to come in over it for a quick look-see at what might be in that area. We spotted an auxiliary field about 5 to 10 miles away - it's kind of hard to remember distances exactly in this point in time - and here were at least 60 airplanes lined up on this auxiliary airport, wing tip to wing tip in two lines on opposite sides and we just had a heyday going up and down those two lines. He was going one way and I was going the other and just raising all kinds of havoc, setting airplanes on fire and I remember looking over to the side road and seeing a truckload of Japanese arriving on the scene. They must have been arriving to make an early morning take-off, because by this time it was I would say around 7 something and the sun was well up, but not too far in the sky and they just parked and watched all this havoc being raised with their airplanes. So then we finished there getting a little low on ammunition and headed over toward Moulmein. By that time there was activity going on because they evidently knew that we were in the area and we started strafing there. We got one just about the time he started to swing into position to take off, we got another - I had a kind of a trial bomb that Charlie Baisden had rigged up for me to put in the fur pocket on my wing. It was a homemade bomb and it was more to set fires with than anything else and I set a dandy, because there was a transport plane gassing up over near a hangar and I hit it in a vicinity to catch that whole area on fire and caught that one on fire and we made about one more pass after that and got the heck out of there because we had no more ammunition and more planes were beginning to warm up to taxi out, so we headed, and I have never understood quite why the Japanese didn't follow us because if they'd thought the thing through, they would have known that we were going to have to stop in Toungoo, which we did, and gassed up. I can't remember the name of the U.S. General there, but they interviewed us at some time for what we had seen. Of course all we could report on was airplanes. They were more interested in ground troops but we couldn't give them too much information and we stayed an extra 15 or 20 minutes talking to those guys and I was getting kind of antsy and so was Bill because we were �expecting to get our airplanes strafed out there at any time. Pretty soon we took off and went back to Magwe and landed and never saw any more until the two days later when that big raid hit us on the 21st. FRANK BORING: What did Chennault have to say about all of this? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well he sent the telegram to us congratulating us on the great record of destruction that we had set - a new record of world destruction. Something that kind of pleased me. I read the wording of that in the group diary not too long ago. I happened to have a copy of that and found it and it made me feel kind of good. FRANK BORING: There was a [?] when they shot the glass, the bomber I guess that shot at you and got all in your eyes. Could you repeat that story again please? KEN JERNSTEDT: You want that whole thing repeated? FRANK BORING: We don't know if we got it KEN JERNSTEDT: This really had the Japanese upset. I knew they were going to hit us anyway but on the 21st of March, two days after our raid, they hit Magwe and they caught us on the ground - absolutely cold. I was able to get to my airplane and get it into the air just barely about the time the first bombs were beginning to hit the airport. The chances of immediate dog fight was absolutely not there, so I gained altitude and then chased a bomber formation as it headed home. There were about 18 ships as I remember in that formation and I was the only one, which was a little bit foolhardy, but I kept nicking at them and I got two of them down and then on the one I was working on either he got me or one of his wing men got me with a shot that hit the windshield right in front of my face and I like a fool had my goggles off my eyes and on my forehead because, in a dog fight the goggles didn't give you the peripheral vision that you sometimes need. This wasn't really a dog fight but I �still wanted my peripheral vision and that glass exploded and some of it hit my eye and my face and I thought "oh my gosh, I'm dead" and I dove out and then realized I wasn't dead, so pulled it out and headed toward Magwe, which was about 200 miles. It took me quite a while to get there and landed with very, very little gasoline left and a navigational feat that was just plain luck. Because all I'd done was reverse what I remembered my compass heading to be as I was going with those bombers and I hit it right on the head, landed to see a great deal of turmoil. John Fauth, one of our crew chiefs had received a wound from a bomb. He died that night. Frank Swartz, another pilot, had jumped from one trench to another and as he was running, a bomb went off near him and hit his face and his hand. He died in Poona, India about a month later from an infection that had set in as a result of the wound. I had stayed up with him until about midnight that night and then the next morning they shipped me in the Lockheed up to Kunming for some R&R. I stayed up there for about 5 days and then John Hennessy flew me back down to Magwe where I joined the squadron again. That was at a time that we were gradually beginning to retreat out of northern Burma. We went into a place called Loiwing, operated out of there for several days. That was the headquarters for CAMCO, Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co., where they had the actual structure of a factory that was going to begin to build CW21's for the Chinese. But they never got any built because the Japanese took that area over. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Jernstedt_Ken_1991-02-22_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Jernstedtneth A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-22 Title A name given to the resource Ken Jernstedt interview (video and transcript, 4 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ken Jernsted by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. After resigning his officer's commission with the US Marine Air Corps, Ken Jerstedt joined a large group of volunteers leaving San Francisco under the cover of the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co. to join the AVG in 1941. He served in the Third Squadron "Hells Angels" as Flight Leader and had more than 10 victories against the Japanese. In this tape, Jernstedt discusses his impression of the Japanese pilots and how their flight tactics and airplanes compared to the Flying Tigers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a5e422e0ca0c514926f0c766e78704d6.mp4 4cf507bbc3e979c28f21925d9d4f236e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6485140d878e591e6ab0d53c60e3d67.pdf 0fa49b8930348cd099af5d1bb12dfce7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Kenneth “Ken” Jernstedt Date of Interview: 02-22-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: I'd like to get back to the training itself that Chennault was giving you and the practice runs you were making with your buddies. How well did that translate to the actual combat that you eventually ran into? KEN JERNSTEDT: That's a fairly hard question to answer because when we finally got into combat, we were against such enormous odds that, yes you could go into your formations on your first pass or two, but then you could quickly get lost. That was my finding anyway. Not that we didn't use some of the very basics, like keep your altitude… [BREAK] FRANK BORING: The tactical information and the strategic information that Chennault was teaching and also the practice runs you were doing with your buddies, how well did that translate into the actual combat as you ran into it? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well it helped us a lot, especially we knew what to do and expect from the other fellow that we were flying with or fellows as the case may be. So many times we were outnumbered to such a degree that the things that we learned from Colonel Chennault were absolutely impossible to do because there just weren't enough of us there. But the basic things like, keep your altitude, remember the type of ship you're flying versus the type that you were �attacking, keep your buddy covered as best as possible if you're a wing man, remember that you have a wing man if you happen to be a flight leader. Then we'd do this as long as we could but when you're fighting against great odds, a lot of times this had to go by the boards pretty fast. You still maintained the basics the best you could, but many times because of the numbers involved, it was kind of every man for himself. Now in other cases, there might have been times, members of the AVG, the numbers were more equal, the element of surprise wasn't quite as much, maybe the tactics were a little more efficient all the way through. I think the same thing would be said about Navy tactics or Army Air Corps tactics or anything. One of the basic things that any fighter pilot has to learn is to be the Captain of that ship and meet the circumstances head-on and those circumstances change fast sometimes and then do the best you can. FRANK BORING: There is one big difference though. In other theaters, using the traditional method of dog fighting that the military was basically explaining, the British, even the ones that you were fighting with in the same skies, their numbers were not even close to the numbers that you had. Do you attribute a lot of that to Chennault's tactics? KEN JERNSTEDT: Basically, yes and the confidence that he built in us and the familiarity that a lot of us had with the airplane and the knowledge that we had concerning the advantages that our airplane had over those that we were up against. If you keep those things in mind, your enemies weak points and your strong points, and vice versa, why you'd live a little longer and there was one thing that we always were taught was don't be a dead hero. It was very important to keep that piece of equipment flying and it was very important that you be there the next day if at all possible. Not that people didn't get shot down, some of us did, but we also knew that we were serving the group a lot better if you saw that you were beginning to get the worst in a dog fight, instead of staying in there �and shooting it out with that guy, just dive out, live to fight another day. That was one of the key things he taught us. FRANK BORING: Let's talk now about the incidents that changed everything and that was the first time you heard about Pearl Harbor being bombed. Can you give us your impression? I know you had a lot of friends that were probably there. Can you tell us your impressions and your reaction to hearing about Pearl Harbor? KEN JERNSTEDT: I remember the day very succinctly in that I had the duty that day and we were on alert. The members of the Third Squadron and at least one time that day there was a Jing bow, which is the Chinese word for air raid and we were sent into the air and I think there were four of us. Japanese airplanes were supposed to have been sighted. We went up to shoot down Venus, because Venus shines at that particular latitude in the daytime and somebody saw this reflection up there, they thought it was an airplane and it was Venus. At least that's what it was determined to be later because when we got up high we never found anything except Venus. It was a jumpy group I can tell you because, of course, we put bullets in the airplanes, had been in for about a week as I remember, and everybody was on alert. I remember I got clear to the airport that day before I learned that Pearl Harbor had happened. It was a strange feeling because we knew that sooner or later we were going to war and now we realized that our whole country was going to go to war. It was a lot of soul searching and thinking to try to figure out just how that would affect our operation. Whether or not supplies would be sent up the Burma Road for us to protect and how long we would be able to keep the Burma Road open if that was going to be a major consideration of the allied effort to keep it open. We began to wonder, at least I did at that time, how can we operate as, you might say, a civilian operation with the whole rest of the world at war under military operation, how could we expect our government to send us supplies when there would be other military services of the regular Army Air Corps and Navy Air �Corps wanting supplies. So even at a very early stage we began to wonder just how long we could exist. FRANK BORING: Right after Pearl Harbor you were kind of expecting to be fighting almost any day but actually quite a few days went by. What were those days like before the actual first encounter? KEN JERNSTEDT: Pearl Harbor of course was on the 8th out there and right away the Third Squadron, the rumor started and later the orders came through that we would go to Rangoon because General Chennault and the powers that be considered that to be one of the vulnerable targets for the Japanese and so some of the British were there at Mingaladon and we were to go down there and aid them in the defense of Rangoon and the other two squadrons were to go up to Kunming. Of course there was a certain amount of preparation necessary for that move. You move that many people and planes and supplies that far in two different directions, there was a lot of activity going around Toungoo. I think it was around the 11th or 12th, something like that, before we were able to take off and make the move to Rangoon. Of course when we got there, it was a case of familiarization again. Flying the area, getting bearings, getting used to the operations in connection with the British Airdrome, having our food supplies, etc., places to sleep for a bunch of Yankees, getting them used to us. It took some diplomacy on a lot of people's part and sometimes the diplomacy wasn't so good. But we had to fly the planes to familiarize ourselves with the territory, we also realized that we weren't going to get much warning there because the British did not have in place a very good warning system. So the realization came that if we get hit here, we're going to really not have hardly any notice at all. FRANK BORING: How much interplay did you actually have with the British? Not necessarily brass, but other pilots, but if you did have interplay with brass too? �KEN JERNSTEDT: On my level, very little. I was a Flight Leader. We occupied a different area of the Airdrome. Those things are fairly large and of course we didn't know anybody over there and on purpose, I believe. They probably kept us apart as much as possible. I did not have any real personal contact with the British pilots. I did not have much respect for their airplanes, but we quickly learned that. That the Brewster's that they were flying in that area just didn't compare to anything really except a clunk of machinery. It was a poor excuse for a fighter plane as far as I was concerned. But there was a lot to just get used to in a fairly short time. You think two weeks is a long time but it passes pretty fast. FRANK BORING: Especially when you're under the threat of war. Could you tell us about your first encounter with the enemy? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well that was on December 23rd and we had an air raid warning go up so I remember there were I think 12 AVG'ers or the Third Squadron planes on alert that day and Neal Martin and Bob Brouk and I were one section and I don't remember the make-up of any others as well as I do that one. Neal Martin was going to be the leader of that flight, both Brouk and I were Flight Leaders and by that time maybe 2/3 of us were Flight Leaders in the Third Squadron, but we took off and went out a ways to gain some altitude and came back and here our first contact was with a large formation of 18 twin-engine Japanese bombers. Neal Martin was considered to be and rightfully so, as far as I was concerned, a very, very fine pilot. And I'm sure I'm right on this, an All American basketball player for the University of Arkansas, a great athlete, a great young man. I was flying on his wing and Bob Brouk was also back of me in our ABC and we got higher than this bomber formation and off to the right and Neal dove down and I never will forget seeing his airplane go through kind of below the formation and up and sit out right there in front of the bombers, and all of a sudden the thing turned over on its nose and went down and he went straight in, was killed. Now no one will ever know whether he made a tremendous mistake and misjudged his �dive and pulled up in front, or whether he was shot at and hit as he more or less went below them. But on the first pass, Neal Martin was killed and then it was my turn to go down and of course the heartbeat was a little faster in situations like that and I came in and attacked on the flank on the right side and made my first pass and nothing happened as far as any airplane going down is concerned. About my third pass I had gone down through the formation this way and I pulled up on the other side and I came back down and up and got fairly close and unloaded into one of those Mitsubishi bombers and it just blew up entirely. I continued to attack. I did not see any more airplanes come down. They turned and left for the east and I soon landed. There had been a great deal of damage on the airport. Bombs had hit the runways, missed the bomb hole when I came in, one was right on the runway. Some of the buildings had been hit. There was a great deal of excitement naturally, because quite a few of the fellows had quite a bit of wild stories and of course I was remembering my own. I had used most of my ammunition. Hopefully some of those went down before they got back to the border because I thought I was right on and you could see the bullets going in them but the things wouldn't come down except that one really blew up, just caught fire, must have hit the gas tanks and away she went. But that first flight we lost two pilots, Neal Martin and Hank Gilbert and of course what enthusiasm we had for the victories were dimmed considerably by the fact that we'd lost two good men. FRANK BORING: The next few days the Japanese came back. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about that? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well those were very hectic days. December 24th we were left alone but everybody was pretty keyed up and December 25th, of course Christmas, why here they came again and even in larger numbers. I had a little bit of trouble with my engine at first, the thing was missing a little bit, but it smoothed out and I had gained a lot of altitude on account of going on the outskirts and I made some passes at some bombers and did not have any luck. Then I �saw two fighters off to the northeast from where I was at that time and so I headed over in that direction and I headed toward them at an angle. One of them saw me and came back and we made headon at each other and I got him. I had six guns and it was an I-97 and I don't think they have more - I think they had four on them - I had fire power advantage and by this time the other fellow left the area and so I was, as I say, east of the airport considerably, had used up a lot of gasoline and practically all my ammunition and had only one fighter to claim, so I went back and landed. We did not have the damage, as I recall, to the airport that day that we had the first time. But again, we had two pilots missing. Overend and McMillan. Pretty soon Overend came back and that night we were having our dinner, the food………… (smoke alarm went off). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Jernstedt_Ken_1991-02-22_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Jernstedtneth A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-22 Title A name given to the resource Ken Jernstedt interview (video and transcript, 3 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ken Jernsted by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. After resigning his officer's commission with the US Marine Air Corps, Ken Jerstedt joined a large group of volunteers leaving San Francisco under the cover of the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co. to join the AVG in 1941. He served in the Third Squadron "Hells Angels" as Flight Leader and had more than 10 victories against the Japanese. In this tape, Jernstedt Jernstedt discusses how combat training with General Chennault translated into greater confidence during periods of actual combat. He also discusses his reaction to hearing about Pearl Harbor and what their experience was like in the period that followed. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f6dc3e7adca8d4d8c9a2641b9894f83b.mp4 92d654e817be746c64d8893268517e1f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ceda215985209fe72fbd5f557f7be56d.pdf 03cd7e71c7462e439c10492a02a20708 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Kenneth “Ken” Jernstedt Date of Interview: 02-22-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: Once you arrived - you said there was a train and a bus and then what happened after the bus trip? KEN JERNSTEDT: We took a bus from Kuala Lumpur to Port Swettenham and then got aboard this old tramp steamer and it was really a tramp. They had actually cleaned out some of the rooms on the stern and no passengers had been in there for months and years. They had hosed it all down and some of the fellows had made a left turn and headed in that direction and for some reason or other I instinctively turned right and got a more or less a cabin up front near the Captain. So we ate with the Captain and the one or two other passengers that were aboard that ship, Charlie Older and myself and I think Tom Haywood and one of the other pilots, I forget which one that was, and all the rest ate at the stern end of the ship with the crew and they didn't have near the living conditions that we did, and we kind of lorded it over them. FRANK BORING: What was your first experience with people from the AVG? I mean when you finally arrived? KEN JERNSTEDT: Of course we arrived in Rangoon and there was a fellow by the name of Noel Bacon that I had known and we were mostly Navy pilots and so he knew practically all of us, had come down from Toungoo. I think he was there to pick up a P-40 or something, but anyway, we had dinner with him in the hotel there that night. He �told us about living conditions up at Toungoo and I believe we stayed in the hotel that night and then started up on the train the next day. FRANK BORING: What did you find when you arrived? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well that was a - we had a grand reception because we pulled into the train depot at night and they actually had a band out to meet us and I couldn't believe it. Here was music playing and people yelling and greeting us and really trying to make us feel at home. I didn't expect anything like that. I don't know whether I've ever had an arrival like that since either. But anyway, it was kind of old home week because we were greeted by some of the fellows that we had known in flying school and they had seen our names on the roster and it didn't happen often enough, but what they made a little bit of a ceremony out of our arrival. Then we were put on busses and taken out to the Toungoo airport where we were going to train and taken over to the hostel. I've always felt very glad about the fact that Ole Olson, the Commanding Officer of the Third Squadron had seen three Marines listed on the list of incoming pilots and he figured that we would probably want to stay together, so he talked Colonel Chennault into letting all of us come to the Third Squadron. That's one thing we wanted to do if at all possible, was stay together and fortunately, why we were able to do that. FRANK BORING: Now you had an image from not too long before that of this exotic place called China and you arrived in Toungoo, what did you find? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well, it wasn't as bad as it might sound or as it seemed later. I've always noticed in my life that whether it was military chow or college food, when you first get there it doesn't seem very bad. In fact you wonder why everybody is complaining and then after you're there a couple or three weeks why you start being one of the complainers too. So the first few days there, why I didn't see too much wrong with the food and I didn't have any trouble sleeping in �that small cot. It was something different and kind of an interesting experience. Of course I had never seen a climate like that, there was a little exploring to do on the weekends and in our off hours. It was jungle you might say, right down to the edge of that little valley. Tea plantations up on the hill that we could go visit, a swimming pool out in the jungle that we were at I think the first Sunday we were there. I won't say that it was an Olympic sized pool or anything like that, but we could at least get wet and throw a little water around at each other. The fact that we were flying, of course, was the main thing and we quickly checked out in the P-40 which was a look-forward to event and getting acquainted with all the other guys. There was something to do all the time. I had no problem. FRANK BORING: Some of the guys as you know did not have the kind of experience you did in airplanes. If you could just describe to us your first experience with the P-40. I know that you said that you felt comfortable with it, but if you could describe that a little bit for people who wouldn't know about the P-40? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I had confidence in myself, but I have to admit that there was a surprise or two before that first flight was over. I've always liked to fly fighter airplanes because I didn't have to check out with anybody. I mean they could tell you about it and point out the instruments which were all very standard, but from then on you were on your own and they can tell you some of the characteristics which you can understand as a pilot. But the one thing about the P40, as far as I was concerned, was it was the first in-line engine that I'd ever flown. Being Navy trained, we were used to the aircooled radial type engines and when I got up in the air and started maneuvering a little bit I didn't have any problem whatsoever. It had different characteristics than the Grumman mid wing Wildcat, but pretty much of a standard type of plane. But when I pulled the canopy back and cut my throttle for the final landing and that thing started p-p-p-p at me, why I really got a surprise because here were these 12 exhaust stacks right there in front of me all banging at �once and that really kind of surprised me. That was the main surprise of that entire flight, was the way those exhaust stacks barked at me as I cut my gun for landing. FRANK BORING: When was the first time and if you could describe your first impression of meeting Claire Chennault? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I believe we met him the next day, went over to the office and here was this very weather-beaten face with very stern looking mannerisms about him, but I was really impressed because he was a military man, quite formal at first. Later on I got to make a few my mind up about a few things concerning him and one or two, I would say that, well in the first place, he hated to lose. In fact, like in a game of softball, he pitched for headquarters and the Padre caught flys occasionally out in center field for him and he would always get blamed for the fact that headquarters would get beat. Chennault by this time had reached the age where he was fairly easy to hit, but he hated to lose and somebody else got blamed for it. If you were going to play poker with him or cribbage or anything like that, there would be a time limit set, okay we'll play till 12 o'clock. Well you quit at 12 o'clock if he was ahead. If he was behind you kept playing. Sometimes the games drug out. He hated to lose. He was in good physical shape for a man his age and he was very proud of that. He was very succinct in his statements and you always had the feeling that he meant exactly what he said. He was obviously very knowledgeable about fighter airplanes and we learned a lot from listening to him talk to us concerning the characteristics of our own airplane and the Japanese airplanes, especially the Japanese airplanes. I don't know that he ever flew a P-40, but he understood its characteristics in comparison to what we were going to be up against as far as the Japanese were concerned. FRANK BORING: This is something I've always found very interesting is that some of you guys, especially like with you and Tex Hill was another one who had a great deal of experience. I think that if somebody had �gotten up there and tried to give you a lecture that you knew was not real it wouldn't be the same as the impression you got from Chennault. So from the very beginning you realized this man knew what he was talking about. KEN JERNSTEDT: Why yes. There was no doubt in my mind that he knew what he was talking about and I think he was the type of individual that might give orders sometime for something that for the long-range pull might not be exactly what you would like to see happen, but you think about it, you realize the old man would be right and so you followed the orders. He was a good leader and I think he had the respect of most of the people that were out there, most of them that I admired anyway. FRANK BORING: The classes that he gave, the teaching that he gave on these tactics and whatnot. Did you find that they were helpful when you actually got up in the air against the Japanese? I mean were you caught by surprise or you pretty much anticipate what you were going to run into? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well the one thing that he taught that was so different than what I had learned or had been taught in the Navy, was everything was three ship in the Navy and you operated in three of threes, etc. Well, under Chennault we quickly went to two ship and in pairs well three pairs to a group. So it would be three six ship operations, if you divided 18. If the Navy did it, why you'd have, we'd have three - I have to think this through, I'm messing this thing up. But if you had nine ships or a squadron of 18, you would have six three ships operations. Under Chennault you would have three six ship operations and those planes, it was much easier to fly formation in three groups of two and you were better protected tactically from getting jumped, you used less gasoline, it was just a lot better operation all the way around, with operating in ABC three ship rather than the three twos than the old three ship of the Navy. �FRANK BORING: There's also the idea which is somewhat different too of coming up from behind and using the advantage of the airplane to come down and back around again. Could you talk about that a little bit? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well the type of airplane that we had, the P-40 of course, did not climb too fast in comparison to the Japanese and Chennault really always taught "get the altitude, get the altitude" and if you start out with an additional 2 or 3 thousand feet on any airplane, why you can go into a speedy dive and then make that pass and then use that speed to gain altitude again. If you are starting out on the same level, you do not have that additional speed and so you quickly lose the advantage in a dog fight. If you start above them with that altitude, you have that supra speed that will last you much longer in the dog fight and be at your advantage. The same thing is true if you're attacking a group of bombers. I always found it much safer to come in from above and then you can decide on your way down just how you're going to formulate your attack. But speed and altitude was one thing that the P-40, we had to learn to use to our advantage. FRANK BORING: Let's talk a little bit about the days before Pearl Harbor. A lot of that time was spent training, a lot of that time was spent flying. Explain to us a little bit about what the routine was like and what not before you actually got into the battle? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well of course anybody ought to have several hours in an airplane before he starts using it tactically and that was the first thing we did was quite a bit of just plain flying by yourself and the 3 of us, the ex-Marines, worked together and we'd take off roughly at the same time when we could, a lot of times we'd go out and fly a little formation and go into the ABC formation if we were just the 3 of us even flying and we'd chase tails and do mock combat work. I remember finally after a week or two we had mock combat with one of our squadron mates who'd been out there awhile and they were probably much better qualified in the P-40. I went up against Duke Hedman the first time in dog fighting, he whipped me. But it �wasn't exactly a whipping, it took him a little while, but he eventually ended up on my tail and of course that was a good lesson for me. But Duke was a good pilot and I obviously needed some more training. There's a lot of formation work that goes into this type of flying and then there's formations working against each other and so once in a while we'd have maybe 9 ships attacking 9 ships. That gets to be a real rat race and it's a wonder somebody wasn't killed in one or two of those out there. But you get to know the country you're in, you get to know the airplane more and more. Every hour you put in is to your advantage as far as the first time or anytime that you're going to go into combat. The better acquainted you are with the airplane, the better off you're going to be and so we flew them as much as we possibly could, realizing that there was a limitation because of supplies, etc. and down time on any airplane. But the more you could fly, the better off you were even if you were up there just horsing around with each other. FRANK BORING: During this period of time did you have much interaction with the crew chiefs, the people who were actually working on your airplane? KEN JERNSTEDT: I think we did. Frank Losonsky was my crew chief and I feel very fortunate that I had him and I think most of the pilots, especially the Third Squadron, had all the - it may get even broader than that - we had good mechanics all through the AVG. Some of those fellows had been in the Army Air Corps for a long time. My mechanic was really devoted to that airplane and he did a good job and I take my hat off to him to this day and I know the other pilots feel the same way. We went over and talked to them a lot of times when we were not flying and just talked to them about the engine and some of the things and they'd educate us as to what to do and what not to do, to keep the thing cooled under certain conditions, etc. It was a learning process, so you took as much advantage of it as you could because you knew you'd better learn a few things. Sure didn't know it all. �FRANK BORING: Did you find that that was somewhat unique? Was that different than your past experience with working with military aircraft? Did you used to talk to crew chiefs when you were in the Marines or was this something more unique? KEN JERNSTEDT: A little bit more unique but not a lot because there's a certain esprit de corps in the Marines. If you'd ask an Army pilot that or maybe a Navy pilot, you'd find a different answer, but I remember in the fighting squadron I was on with the Marines, my crew chief that I had, had been in the Marine Corps sixteen years. He had a man under him that had been in the Marine Corps eleven years and there was one fellow that had been in there six years that wiped the airplane down and when you add up that much experience and that much going into one ship just for one pilot and then compare what we were doing in China with one crew chief and maybe some oriental laborer on the side. The experience wasn't there. But then I'll even go a little further and think about that in connection with let's say a 4 engine bomber of a B17 and the head chief on that had maybe been on that maybe 2 years and with 4 engines to take care of and Lord knows how many guns, etc., it sometimes boggles my mind to think how lucky we were to have the help that we had, both as a Marine pilot and the help out in China compared to what some of these fellows put up with. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Jernstedt_Ken_1991-02-22_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Jernstedtneth A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-22 Title A name given to the resource Ken Jernstedt interview (video and transcript, 2 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ken Jernsted by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. After resigning his officer's commission with the US Marine Air Corps, Ken Jerstedt joined a large group of volunteers leaving San Francisco under the cover of the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co. to join the AVG in 1941. He served in the Third Squadron "Hells Angels" as Flight Leader and had more than 10 victories against the Japanese. In this tape, Jernstedt describes his arrival at Rangoon, his first experience with the other members of the AVG and flying a P-40, in addition to meeting General Claire Chennault. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec33a25de0bff492fe490506b425a541.mp4 79453a080061559a0994a3e9123ca4ca https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d6c0b20d9ab9e7287c2b75465c6ed0c6.pdf e3e432ea1f8ded0ec3ae14e4a84c143b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Kenneth “Ken” Jernstedt Date of Interview: 02-22-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: What were you doing prior to AVG? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I had gone through Pensacola, Florida as a Navy Cadet, not actually as a Navy Cadet, Navy flight training as a Marine Corps trainee, and had joined the First Marine Aircraft Group and 50 years ago today, we were in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba on maneuvers after about 3 or 4 months in the States and about 4 months down there to be exact. So I think that the fact that I had been in the Marine Corps was a special good training for me as far as the AVG was concerned. FRANK BORING: When and how did you first hear about the opportunity in China? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well the whole First Marine Aircraft Group had returned to the States to Quantico, Virginia and just about that time we were allowed to go home on leave but almost exactly within a week or two of that, we heard of this man that was going to come through to interview anybody that met certain qualifications for this exciting-sounding tour in China. But the drive to go home was so steep in all of us that the fellows that eventually went out from that group, went home on leave first. Then we came back after 30 days at home and by chance had gone down to Norfolk, Virginia on a cross-country flight, that wasn't very far of course from Quantico to Norfolk, but to us we were feeling our oats and we met some of �our ex-buddies that we'd known at Pensacola in the Navy and they were talking very strongly about joining this AVG. So the 3 or 4 of us, actually there were 4 at that point that were interested, began to talk among ourselves and so we inquired and then made an appointment and flew up to New York to meet the heads of CAMCO who established the American Volunteer Group and would front for us out in China and I think it was the 68th floor of the Chrysler Building. Skip Adair, who I later met out in China, was the man that interviewed the four of us. FRANK BORING: We're going to re-run this same question again on when and how you heard about the AVG KEN JERNSTEDT: Well we had returned from the maneuvers that we had been on down in the Cuban area to the States and had just settled in, we were all anxious to go home on leave, which we did do. When we returned we had flown down to Norfolk and heard about a chance to go to China, which sounded fairly glamorous, from some of the Navy pilots who were there, that we had known in Pensacola. There were four of us in this First Marine Fighter Squadron, stationed at Quantico, Virginia that were very interested in this particular thing. So we missed the trip that he made through Quantico, so we took it on ourselves and contacted him and flew up to New York for a special interview in the 68th floor, I believe it was, of the Chrysler Building. And it was there that I met for the first time, Skip Adair, who was one of the officers of the group later on out in China. It's rather interesting to me at this time in my life that 3 of the 4 of us signed up. The one fellow that didn't, was left behind, his choice, because he was an only son of a widowed lady and he had just met a Powers Model. And if you ever met a Powers Model you know that's a pretty good reason for staying home. He was chasing pretty regular up to New York to see her. So he decided to stay home. The week that we were sitting in Los Angeles waiting to sail, he was killed in a routine cross-country flight back in Quantico, Virginia and the 3 of us that went out to China lived to a fairly ripe old age. One of them did pass away �about 10 years ago from natural causes and 2 of us are still alive. So I guess if you're gonna get it, you're gonna get it. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of what you were going to find in China from talking to Skip and talking to the CAMCO people? You said it was kind of exotic. What was your impression of what you were going to find there? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well that is a very interesting question as far as I was concerned and I've often wondered what I thought about it at that time now. But there was a challenge of travel, there was a challenge of doing something good for a nation that was obviously in trouble because there was a lot of propaganda put on by the news services at that time of the atrocities that the Japanese empire was doing on the Chinese; pictures of orphans sitting on street corners and wailing and the results of bombs falling in Shanghai and it was very effective propaganda. And it was true. So we did feel a real empathy for the Chinese people. Then we realized that also we would make more money, that had something to do with it. It was kind of a glamorous thought. There were 3 of us talking each other into this too. And when you get 3 young fellows with a certain amount of spirit, why it's easier to do it in three's than it is by yourself, if you're going to take on a venture like that. I think that maybe deep down the fact that there was a rumor going on that we might be doing submarine patrol duty in the north Atlantic off a carrier, made us think that maybe we were just about as safe fighting the Japanese out in China as we were trying to find a carrier in the fog in the north Atlantic and then land on the blamed thing, because we had, all 3 of us, checked out in carriers, in two different airplanes, two different carriers, and until you've done that a few hundred times, it is not exactly habit-forming. And I never did exactly like it, I wasn't scared of it, but it's a form of aviation that I lived without later on. FRANK BORING: What were you doing prior to the AVG? �KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I was finishing about a year's duty with the First Marine Aircraft Group, stationed in Quantico, Virginia. Just 50 years ago today, we were in Guantanamo Bay thinking about getting to return to the States. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear about this opportunity in China? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I think that happened just about within 2 or 3 days after we got back to Quantico and there was a notice on the bulletin board that a man was going to come through telling about this opportunity. But we were so anxious to go home on leave, which we did do, that we passed up that opportunity for the interview. A little later on, after we came back and were in normal operations again, we made a cross-country flight down to Norfolk, Virginia and met some of the Navy pilots that we had known in Pensacola, that had already had the interview and some of them had actually signed up and were going to leave the Navy to go out and supposedly fight the Japanese in China. So this kind of got us thinking a little more about it. So we made an appointment with this gentleman in New York City, went up to the 68th floor of the Chrysler Building and there I met Skip Adair for the first time and he was the one that interviewed 4 of us for the opportunity to leave the Marine Corps and go to China. FRANK BORING: What had you heard about, in terms of China? What was told to you and what did you kind of expect? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well we really didn't know what to expect. We each thought we were pretty well trained. A year of active duty in the Marines on maneuvers practically the whole time. We thought we were very well trained. Carrier landings were something I didn't particularly like and there was one rumor going around that we might go to the north Atlantic and this was, of course, before the war started. But if you recall, President Roosevelt was leaning very much toward the allies in Europe and we were sending Destroyer escorts, etc. and some of the war materials that were being shipped to Europe. So �one of the things that we heard was that they were going to use the aircraft carriers for that purpose and that the Marines might be doing that. Well I thought that I'd be just as safe out in China fighting the Japanese as I would be trying to find a carrier in the fog in the north Atlantic and land on it. Other things we had to consider was another opportunity to travel. Until I had joined the Marines, I had not really been out of the State of Oregon and here I had an opportunity to go halfway around the world and have this wonderful opportunity. Three fellows together, good friends, we started out to be four, but one dropped out. The fact that we were going to make more money, the fact that we were going to be out there for a year and then we could either continue our military careers or we could leave the service, that was going to be up to us. So you take all those things into consideration and three guys, four guys egging each other on, it was something that came to pass. FRANK BORING: What did you know about or hear about China at that period of your life? KEN JERNSTEDT: I really didn't know a lot about it. The fact that the Japanese had started invading the coast of China and had cut it all off entirely was, of course, the reason the AVG was founded. There were no seaports and they had to get supplies into China. The pictures that we'd see in on the newsreels, when we'd go to a moving picture and see the propaganda how the Japanese were bombing the civilians of Shanghai and there was a deep-seated feeling, as far as I was concerned anyway, that there was something wrong going on there and maybe I could do a little thing to maybe right that wrong. It was also a certain feeling that it looked like the whole country was going to go to war. Here was a chance to maybe get a little bit of practice ahead of time where it wasn't quite as dangerous as it might be someplace else. The way it worked out, I think I was wrong in that, it was just as dangerous there as anyplace. But it was a factor that went through my mind anyway, making up my mind to go out there. And probably last but not least, I was going to get another month's leave at home before I had to make the trip �to China. So it's odd sometimes the things that we do, the reasons that we do things, I should say, but there were 5 or 6 reasons that would go into my decision. FRANK BORING: Once you made the decision with your buddies to go to China, what was the procedure of getting out of the American military and then into this new group? KEN JERNSTEDT: That was very interesting looking back on it because we filled out a letter of resignation from our officer-ship, if you want to call it that, and that had to go through our Squadron Commander, it had to go through our Group Commander and then it had to go over to the Division and then the entire First Marine Corps Group. There were about four officers from a Major on up to a General that had to sign that, either approved or disapproved. By the time it reached the final one, I was talking to a General and he said "well Lieutenant, you know I can't possibly approve this." And I said "Well I can understand, Sir, but it's my understanding that once it gets to Washington, D.C. it will be approved and I guess all I can ask is, you just sign it one way or another." So it went to Washington, D.C. and my resignation was approved. We did sign a statement on that letter of resignation that we would accept employment upon the acceptance of that resignation, with the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co., which was the front for the group out in China. FRANK BORING: Once all the paper work was done and all of the final bits and pieces were put together, where did you have to go to meet up with this group that was eventually going to go to China? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well, as I stated, we had about a month at home and then I went to Los Angeles. We were to report in at the Jonathan Club in Los Angeles and they put us up there, except Tom Haywood and I stayed at Charlie Older's home for that week. And we'd go down once a day and report to the so-called leadership at the Jonathan �Club, find out that the ship wasn't going to sail for another day or two and then we'd go see Los Angeles. FRANK BORING: What were some of the conversations you guys were having about that time, about traveling out there? The excitement must have been building during that period. KEN JERNSTEDT: Yes, it really was building. Personally I had said my goodbyes to Oregon and my parents and my girlfriend and all that so by the time I hit Los Angeles, most of that trauma was over and waiting to sail was made a lot easier by the fact that I was living with my friend, Charlie Older and we, as I say, really got to see Los Angeles for a week under some very pleasant circumstances. I'll never forget that week. We did not really meet or get to know any of the other fellows that were on the same ship until the thing got started for the Hawaiian Islands. As I recall there was a total of about 32 or 33, six of us were pilots. FRANK BORING: You mentioned that four people originally were going to go on this, what's the story on that? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well, the fourth person was the son of a widow lady, the only son, by the way, and he had just met a Powers Model. And being a young Second Lieutenant, he was doing all right with his relationship with this nice looking girl, I had met her up in New York, and he was beating a pretty steady path up there. So the combination of being an only son and having met a beautiful young lady, made him decide that the United States was a pretty good place to follow his immediate career. So the 3 of us that eventually went then went out to the west coast, Los Angeles and stayed there for a week and during that week, our friend was killed in a routine cross-country flight back around Philadelphia, night flight. I guess this kind of made a fatalist out of me because the three of us that went out lived to a fairly decent age. I'm still alive, Charlie Older is still alive, Tom Haywood died of somewhat natural causes about 10 years ago and I had thousands of flying �hours and lived dangerously for years and I have done a little of that and Charlie Older certainly has and the one fellow that played it safe didn't make it. FRANK BORING: You mentioned earlier about your week in L.A. that it was unforgettable and that it was quite a wonderful time. What was it that made it so special? KEN JERNSTEDT: Well I had the pleasure of staying in the Older home. I had met Charlie's present wife earlier in my military career, not much earlier. They were, of course, engaged by this time. I was introduced to her twin sister. Tom Haywood was introduced to another likely young lady of Los Angeles. I got to do some private flying there. I remember going out one time and taking Kitty Older and her twin sister up in a private airplane on what is now the International Airport and it was hardly more than a pasture at that particular time. I remember the movie actor, Bob Taylor being out there to fly an airplane about the same time and just little incidences like that. Meeting both the families of Charlie and his brother and Kitty and her whole family. It was just a fine experience for a young guy from a farm up in Oregon, being down in the great big city of Los Angeles. FRANK BORING: I'd like to talk a little bit about the ship and the trip over and if you could touch upon the rather unique occupations you had on your passports, as I understand, there were a few of those. KEN JERNSTEDT: Yes. Well there were six of us that were pilots. Three Marines, two Navy fellows and one Army, I believe. Then there were about 27 other members that were office staff, automobile mechanics, airplane mechanics, radio operators, armorers, etc. We had passports, of course, issued and I thought that I knew something about accounting, so I went out there as an Accountant, having a degree in Business Administration. Some of them got a little bit flippant and had gravediggers on their passport, all employees of Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co., naturally. We had an �interesting trip in that we changed ships. We were on three different ships. Changed ships two more times, once in Surabaya and the next time in Singapore. The whole trip took us a little over a month and here again, my chance to travel was certainly fulfilled because we went to the Hawaiian Islands, we spent 4 or 5 days in the Philippine Islands, went up to Cavite and saw some of my Pensacola classmates at Cavite, who later were killed there right after Pearl Harbor. We then went down to Batavia and ended up in Surabaya for 3 or 4 days. Then went on to Singapore, stayed there about a week and then took a train up the Malay Peninsula to a little town called Kuala Lumpur, which I have seen in the news in the last few years in connection with the trouble that we've had in that area of the world, and then took a bus from Kuala Lumpur to a little out-of-the-way port called Port Swettenham and there we watched them unload a load of sugar, while we waited for the chance to sail on up to Rangoon. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Jernstedt_Ken_1991-02-22_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Jernstedtneth A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-22 Title A name given to the resource Ken Jernstedt interview (video and transcript, 1 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ken Jernsted by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. After resigning his officer's commission with the US Marine Air Corps, Ken Jerstedt joined a large group of volunteers leaving San Francisco under the cover of the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Co. to join the AVG in 1941. He served in the Third Squadron "Hells Angels" as Flight Leader and had more than 10 victories against the Japanese. In this tape, Jernstedt describes what he was doing prior to joining the American Volunteer Group and the first time he heard of the opportunity in China. He also describes the empathy he had for the Chinese people that influenced his involvement in the AVG and the experience of traveling across the ocean to his new destination. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/782fb6c0bffe1d7380f8d8fe66595898.mp4 7d898eb254454bfae10d4e4e3f1113b5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa3fef2119f890d22dce8c05ee188a97.pdf 1de166fa47afb608ee221dc6eb8468ec PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: P.Y. Shu Date of interview: January 21, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: Could you tell us about your relationship with Tiger Wang? Officially. P.Y. SHU: He was commander, commander of Chinese Air Force, and Chief Officer of Air Cadets. All famous airmen passed away. He is the only one. I know him. FRANK BORING: Did you get along with his personality? P.Y. SHU: He is all right. He was very nice to General Chennault. Personally...no. No... FRANK BORING: Tell us about that. P.Y. SHU: Because General Chennault come too fast, come up too fast with Generalissimo. You know jealousy. If we are friend and you have special attention to me and neglect him, and he will be jealous. So that's was the same thing. FRANK BORING: But eventually the relationship between you, General Chennault and Tiger Wang become very close one. P.Y. SHU: We work together. He was my boss. I had to listen to him and follow. I had nothing to say. �FRANK BORING: Are there any humorous stories among you, Chennault and Tiger Wang? P.Y. SHU: Not special. Because Tiger Wang, he still looked up General Chennault. Because he did good job for China and happy Chinese people. He has nothing to say. So he still look up General Chennault. Because what General T at that time, nobody can say no. Everybody wants peace, wants Japanese to be defeated, wants freedom. So, that everything General Chennault does. They always follow. Nobody say no. You know, we were fighting now and where such a small place like Kunming, everybody not eating good food. Everything was bad. FRANK BORING: Were you present at the meeting of General Chennault and Madame Chiang Kai-Shek? P.Y. SHU: When General Chennault meeting Madame, all by himself. No need for interpreter. FRANK BORING: What was the Madame's feeling to General Chennault? P.Y. SHU: Madame, the first lady, very good speak. She is educated in United States, speaks good English, writes good English, and at that time first lady. FRANK BORING: Did Chennault have a lot of respect? P.Y. SHU: Yes, a lot of respect. You know, Chennault had two daughters...by Anna Chennault. I call Godmother and Madame was Godmother with two daughters. They were close together. FRANK BORING: During AVG period, what kind of problems were there? P.Y. SHU: Yes, he had a lot of problems, and [?], and gasolines. Because in Kunming, we had no gasoline unless all the gasoline flew over hump from India, from Burma. They will be limited by General �Stillwell. They don't give so much gasoline. He stopped supply of gasoline, stopped the business of air mission in China. That's a big problem. That was not good. There is local problems we solved. FRANK BORING: What was the some of the local problems? P.Y. SHU: No local problems. No. Everybody says yes. Like General Lo Yang's governor, local emperor, you ask him ..., General Chennault ask him. Always yes, never say no. That's no problem. FRANK BORING: One of the most important battle AVG fought was the Salween Bridge. P.Y. SHU: Oh yes. That's the first example. AVG had a first, few air battle with Japanese. That first three times. After that, no more. Then, General Chennault's Air Force stopped ground troops from Yuefi [?] to Chungking by another riot. They stopped the ground troops. Surprise. Air supremacy counseled with General Chennault. That's different. Later on, we had no fight, no dog fight with Japanese airplanes. No more planes to come. Only ground troops. They stop ground troops. FRANK BORING: What happened in Salween Bridge? P.Y. SHU: I don't know that. I don't remember that. So many years late. The one stops from ground troops to Kweiyang, stops, surprise troops. Bombing, bombing, bombing. Japanese later on scared. They weren't go deeper inside, deeper to Pacinan [?] to Kweiyang and Chungking. To Kweiyang and Chunking, stopped air war, called... They stop air war. They want ground troops to conquer Chungking. That was that, and Japanese failed. Later on, like Pearl Harbor, that's was big mistake, and we were happy because the Pearl Harbor waked United States to fight. Otherwise United States wouldn't fight. They were afraid of too big war. War in the Europe, war in the Asia. That's too much. So United States won't do that. So that was case. �FRANK BORING: Did Chennault express you his frustration in not having equipment or gasoline or about Stilwell? P.Y. SHU: Oh, no. My duty to do, I was working to Chinese Air Force. But he recommended to President Roosevelt. I got written [?]. I usually put there. That's the only one. Like a full Chinese officers, like Tiger Wang, General Joe [?] or some ground troops generals. Several of them got a written [?] written by President Roosevelt. I had one. That's the only one. FRANK BORING: Where did the Chinese flag on the back of AVG jacket come from? P.Y. SHU: Oh yes. That's Chinese. When AVG started, because maybe the pilot, or any trouble, to nearby here, the Chinese staying, not Japanese. And they put a sign, Chinese flag with. This is to certify AVG to have us and you must have him get out from here. A big one. Put on the back. For every pilot. Later on, 14th Air Force used that, too. Because in air places, nobody speaks Chinese. FRANK BORING: Do you know whose idea was it? P.Y. SHU: That's the AVG people. You see, AVG said how can you tell that AVG pilot, how can? You have no way to say and you must see something. And at that time, there is nothing, just the jacket and put on back. Everyone. Everywhere AVG go out, they must wear jacket. That was several officers' lives. FRANK BORING: Was there any relationship between AVG and Communist Forces? P.Y. SHU: You talk about that. General said, "That's you inside story, your own story. I do not want Communist. I never come to fight for Communist. That's an internal war. I don't want to do that. We will fight with Japanese, fight with outsider. You fight by yourself. I won't drop any bomb." See, he was innocent with Communist. We talked about that. In 1985, I went back to Shanghai - that is �Communist. And Communist government highly prized General Chennault. He said General Chennault was hero. I was there and one need to go to speak. I said no. I had to say. You said too good, no good. Too bad, no good. I said let's stop it. They said, "Nom we were sincerely for you to, how to, you are working with General Chennault. How to General Chennault fight Japanese?" I said no, over is over. How can you say. No, nothing. He said good because you were with General Chennault. They like it. Yes, you talk about that even Communist change ideas. They recognize General Chennault anti-Japanese. FRANK BORING: Please repeat the beginning of your last statement. P.Y. SHU: Oh yes. General Chennault was the hero in the Second World War. He has confessed that... he said, "I came to China to have China to fight Communist... Japanese. The question were nonsense. FRANK BORING: Try it again. P.Y. SHU: He said Communist - that is an internal affairs. He said, "I don't want to talk about Basing or take a part of it." General Chennault has never show to as a communist. So Communist now, even now in 1985, where was in Shanghai, they want me to speak of General Chennault. He said General Chennault was a hero in the last World War. FRANK BORING: Did you ever see General Chennault fly and fight? P.Y. SHU: General Chennault was only... that's in 1937 when he was in Nanking, I was with him. He was flying Hawk 75 fighter plane. That was brought by T. V. Soong. H. H. Kung. He took the plane for reconnaissance flight with Billie McDonald. The two of them took the flight with Shanghai Air, and he never say he had a fight with Japanese. He said he saw Japanese airplane over there, fly over, no fight. And because Japanese, no fight. Even General had fight, they were no opponent. He never [?] believes General �Chennault must had fight. No. That's from bottom of my heart. That's truth. Never. He got some bullets on the airplane but that may be from the ground force. Ground force shot it. That's possible. No dog fight. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Hsu_PY_1991-01-21_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource P. Y. Shu Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-01-21 Title A name given to the resource P. Y. Shu interview (video and transcript, 4 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of P. Y. Shu by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Col. P. Y. Shu was a Chinese interpreter for the American Volunteer Group (AVG). After attending college in China, he attained a Masters in municipal government administration from the University of Michigan. As none of the AVG members spoke Chinese, Hsu was recruited as Chief Interpreter, serving also as a liason with the Chinese Air Force. In this tape, Shu describes his relationship with Tiger Wang, Commander of the Chinese Air Force, and working with General Chennault. He also details the meeting of Chennault and Madame Chiang Kai-shek and the battle that took place at Salween Bridge. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d31a2610ecf766dc3519db56600c455b.mp4 759a2535d8778663f29797cf2a023c84 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53505bdd395a6302474e575dabbcf1ba.pdf 4ebaca0b24bceacb97de55bd4eddb393 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: P.Y. Shu Date of interview: January 21, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: Tell me about the first time you heard about Japanese were coming. P.Y. SHU: We had this warning of Japanese were coming. That was Kunming and we speculated AVG go to fight. It never happen and they didn't come. I said, "Well, maybe they went back." Later on, the pilot came here. They had shot down somewhere way out before coming in. We had no time to see them before they shot down. The three planes, they shot down three or four on that first day. Next day, we were so frightened. We tried to let the cat catch the mouse. They might come again. Two or three days, they stopped. There is no more air raid. All people were so happy. They won't believe that AVG stop it. FRANK BORING: Because every day, they were being bombed. P.Y. SHU: Every day, they repeat bombing. Next morning, you said where are we going to hide? Where do I find the place to hide myself? So people were so excited, there is no more. Quiet. Everything is quiet like the war stopped. FRANK BORING: What was the reaction of Chinese people? �P.Y. SHU: Oh, very good. So Chinese people in the rare talk about AVG, always like this. Everyone knows General Chennault. General Chennault, he has a Chinese name. Cheng Na Ta, that Cheng Na Ta was Chinese. Everybody, Cheng Na Ta. Everybody knows him. He was in the office in headquarter, so big, bigger than this (room). Chinese flag, American flag. AVG to 14th Air Force, the same office. People, they scared of him. General Chennault always like this, the leather face, very scared. And he said, "PY, when American..., Chinese Generals have to talk to me, you just take them in." No appointment. Just go there. And every time Chinese Generals, like Tiger Wang, like some other generals, General Wei, General Soong, all of them want to make appointment with General. I said, "All right. You just said when." He said, "How about tomorrow?" I said, "Come tomorrow. The appointment is ready." He said, "Why?" "General Chennault, he wants to talk to your Chinese counterpart, partners. You are fighting the same war. You just walk in and talk to me. So you can come and see him." So Chinese generals admires General Chennault. He said you look us just like partners. He said never stop to Chinese to come. You know, big generals, you have eight outside and a lot of people and you can't get in, and you have to make appointment, and you can get in. Otherwise if he can call in to see you, you never going to see him. There was a wall. Now, he said, "PY, take the generals to see me as much as possible." When they come to the office, I said wait a minutes, go there to report who is morning to see you, he let him in. I just go and said him to come in. It was so simple. General Chennault with Chinese, not with Americans. FRANK BORING: What was your relationship with Chennault? P.Y. SHU: We were just like bodies. I'm young, at that time I was young. He must ... everything he must ask first. For example, a general wants to see him. He wants me to tell him what kind of general, what his background, what's purpose to see him. He knows a lot, then the general come in and talk to problem that he already has in mind. General Soong: and he ask me what his background. I just whisper �him to tell him. I said the General Nun Yeng [?], the governor of Yunnan, and he is so powerful, he is like the emperor in the area. He knows, he has impressions. I know very well and give him the background to General. How can he? There is so many people. How can he remember all the generals, what they wants us to talk him, what's the purpose of Generalissimo. Of course I know. So that was the only way. I was in Chinese Air Force at that time. I was promoting to [?]. I received Chinese pay. I was not on pay roll of 14th Air Force nor AVG. But AVG belongs to Chinese. But 14th Air Force was American's. He is always Chinese general and big shot, far friendly with generals, especially Generalissimo. He said, "I do not want Joe Stewart." He wants to General Chennault. So later on, always everybody ask questions to Generalissimo, Generalissimo asked General Chennault. So General Chennault had so many friend in Chinese government, both up and high. So people always heard about General Chennault. And AVG were best bodies. So in fact, Americans, like AVG, save China as we had no air defense, nothing. Japanese first did everything until stopped by AVG. FRANK BORING: How do you think Chennault was remembered by the Chinese people? P.Y. SHU: First we have his statue in Taiwan. We all came from mainland and built a statue. No American generals had statue in China. So you know the people's heart. And all the peoples ever since talked about General Chennault. Ok, so if we go to Tusumsin [?], I said I want to see General Chennault, ok. You know the people's heart, feeling about General Chennault. FRANK BORING: Why do you think Chinese people felt so strong about Chennault? P.Y. SHU: How about the bombing was stopped. General Chennault and AVG. AVG is very popular in China. We call it Flying Tigers, Fei Fu. �FRANK BORING: Where did Fei Fu come from? P.Y. SHU: They just organized AVG. People owned P-40's. Like Tiger Shark. That's called Tiger. The big mouth like this. FRANK BORING: Do you remember where the Flying Tiger came from? P.Y. SHU: Because we know ourselves. Because we were working together, we know it. We call it Flying Tigers. That's the common name for AVG. Everybody called AVG Flying Tigers. That's the legend, legend of China. You talk about Flying Tigers, everybody knows it. They said General Chennault look like a tiger, too. FRANK BORING: Were there many American officers visited General Chennault? Very often or very rarely? P.Y. SHU: We have a lot of ... I forgot name. Before the Marshall...I don't know. Of course, they are different with General Chennault. FRANK BORING: Tell us the importance of Flying Tigers for China, and the importance of film about Flying Tigers being made? Tell it to camera in Chinese. P.Y. SHU: [CHINESE.] I know Chinese people can never forget General Chennault. I said General Chennault came to save us from the aggression of Japanese, and save us bombing in Chungking and Kunming. I said a lot of people who experience the time, they must remember. I always thanks General Chennault from deep of my heart. FRANK BORING: Tell us about the importance a film being made in China. P.Y. SHU: [CHINESE] FRANK BORING: What is your most important part in this Chinese history? �P.Y. SHU: Of course, General Chennault was in the Second World War. I was having the opportunity to work with him as interpreter and liaison officer of the Chinese Air Force. I think that was my golden age of my life. From 55 years to 65, I enjoyed them all and I admired him. He is a great man and that is my golden age and golden life of the time. Even we had hard time together in the war, we enjoyed good life. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Hsu_PY_1991-01-21_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource P. Y. Shu Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-01-21 Title A name given to the resource P. Y. Shu interview (video and transcript, 3 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of P. Y. Shu by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Col. P. Y. Shu was a Chinese interpreter for the American Volunteer Group (AVG). After attending college in China, he attained a Masters in municipal government administration from the University of Michigan. As none of the AVG members spoke Chinese, Hsu was recruited as Chief Interpreter, serving also as a liason with the Chinese Air Force. In this tape, Shu discusses the Chinese people's reaction to the American Volunteer Group and their success, in addition to his relationship with General Chennault and how Chennault and the Flying Tigers are remembered in China. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5df2bc8a9fe55edfb81def167464704.mp4 358976d42e0e478c8b858d77b1e2e760 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/405fbcc28c39f094b2040c2c14828ba8.pdf 0d5d3da3b6800036023574447ade9b98 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: P.Y. Shu Date of interview: January 21, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: Tell me you impressions of the commissions. P.Y. SHU: Of course, General Chennault, he went to see those places before the war broke out. He watched, studied the training and watched the cadets and how they was trained. "That's all right," he said. The training in Magway in Hangchow. So many American instructors, pilots that all retied from air force, and came to train them. Then he later on told me they are not fighters. They cannot fight. They never experienced. They are students just from cadet school. No experiences of fighting. So the war broke out, and General Chennault said ... no, no pilots. At that time some of the Chinese instructors, he took out airplane and then fought and shot down. Chinese pilots, lots and lots [?]. They still cannot stop bombing. That's why General Chennault said, "No. You have no time to train the pilots. That takes years to do that." So he said we have to get AVG's to do this, Americans to do this. They are coming to as civilians because United States stop to fight with Japanese. General Chennault said there was no other way except ask American pilots to be pilots over there, called AVG. Chinese gives full power to support this AVG and give them courtesies to AVG people. Everything, food and payment, all of them by the Chinese Government. They called AVG of Chinese Air Force. They are not individuals. General Chennault was with China and AVG to fight with Japanese. �FRANK BORING: Was it true that Chennault had to write down everything he needs, including food, pens, air force equipment? Were you there? P.Y. SHU: He usually try to participate in pilots in Toungoo ... I didn't know. I wasn't there and there is no Chinese pilots in AVG. None. All Americans. They are privince [?] by themselves. I know some of the privince [?] because he talks to Chinese Air Force. On the first day of fighting in Kunming, shot down three bombers. There Japanese pure bombers coming from Formosa, we called Taiwan. And then next day, he didn't know that, he didn't know how it happens. They lost three bombers. They didn't know we have P40's, and next day they came again with more than three, six or four. And AVG stopped and shot down over there, away from Kunming. Then Japanese stopped, scared. Later on, Chungking, AVG went down there, also shot down before they came from Hangchow to Chungking, or stopped. AVG stopped this bombing. FRANK BORING: How did Chinese people react that? P.Y. SHU: They were like this. They all so happy. I was in Kunming with my wife, my first wife. I was about to go to rice field to hide. Bombing everywhere. No aim. Just everywhere is bombing. One time, I came out and bombs just hit the tug out. Very bad. FRANK BORING: Were you able to witness of many of Chinese being killed? P.Y. SHU: Yes, a lot of them were killed. And then General Nun Yeng [?], he said that General Chennault was hero. He save us. General Nun Yeng [?], the governor of Kunming, he said if you want something, just tell me. Everything, I will give you. He said I have nothing I want. I want beef, simple, we got more cows. Then General Chennault stay till the Pearl Harbor happen. FRANK BORING: Where were you on the day of Pearl Harbor? P.Y. SHU: Kunming. �FRANK BORING: What do you recall about that day? P.Y. SHU: We were happy because when Pearl Harbor happens, Generalissimo declare war to Japan. Ok, then 14th Air Force came over. When 14th Air Force is over, I asked General Chennault to command the Air Force. FRANK BORING: What can you tell us about on the day of Pearl Harbor? P.Y. SHU: On that day, we didn't know. The air news was not good. Next day, we heard about it. FRANK BORING: What happened next day? P.Y. SHU: Next day, people were all so happy. Now the United States gets in. Otherwise United States wouldn't get in. That day, we had good news. Generalissimo also so happy, and chief Stillwell, he came to, chief stuff of Generalissimo. That is the time to change and AVG stopped because the United States come in. And they met together and some of the pilots of AVG commissions 14th Air Force. Some, they want to quit and go home. FRANK BORING: After Pearl Harbor, AVG was ready to fight with Japanese, but they didn't come till a week later. Do you remember the first day AVG fought with Japanese? P.Y. SHU: I don't remember the exact date. FRANK BORING: Did you get the phone? P.Y. SHU: No. We didn't have much telephone. The communication was very bad. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us more about communication? �P.Y. SHU: At that time, Kunming was backward country. Nothing. Not like Shanghai. No, different. FRANK BORING: Please describe the bombing scene you witnessed in Kunming. P.Y. SHU: That was about 14th, just before Pearl Harbor, Japanese sent bombers to Chungking, Kunming, day and night. They killed around people in Chungking and even in a tag out, you called it air shelter, because they block out the entrance. People can be sophisticated. Terrible. Kunming, people scattered in rice field, get out from the city, and they bombed air field and city. Just reckless bombing. Not good because no target. Just over there, city. Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. And in Chungking, day and night. So is Kunming. All day and night. We all scared. That's why AVG have to come up early to stop it, and AVG came over and all stopped. FRANK BORING: So when AVG started to fight Japanese, the bombing was stopped. P.Y. SHU: Oh, because they want to fight. They are trained pilots. They came out from American military field. They are good pilots. I said to General Chennault, "How to fight with Zeros?" They can fight by themselves. FRANK BORING: Did you get to know any of Flying Tigers personally? P.Y. SHU: Oh, yes. We stay together and they love to fight. FRANK BORING: What was their reaction to seeing the bombing of Chinese people? P.Y. SHU: They said it's pitiful. He said the defense to trying to kill people without defense. As murder ... they don't care. Japanese, they kills lots of people in Japanese war. So we stayed with, from AVG to 14th Air Force, stay another seven years. No more combat with Japan. In China, no more air force. AVG just kept quiet and wait. And one time, Japanese ground troop come to the west, to south, to Kweiyang, to Kweilin, to Liuchow, to Kweiting [?]. And this �junction, one way directly to Chungking, another to Kunming. Places, very important. General Chennault, the bombing, stop it, stop all Japanese ground troops and advances. Kunming and Chungking were all right. FRANK BORING: Was it a Salween Bridge? P.Y. SHU: No. That's was Kweichow. FRANK BORING: The Chinese were not able to defend themselves in the air against the Japanese in the air at that time. Why was that? P.Y. SHU: Chinese ... no air force. There were trainers, there were cadet school, air cadet. They were trained by training planes. They never had to fight. None of pilots, teachers, how to do combat, they did not know. They are, in fact, all Chinese pilots, teachers, teaching cadets and they lost some of them in the fight. They jump up and fight with tackles. These are not fighter, not even equipped for that. So that why General Chennault, he just shake head and said Chinese Air Force is no use, not ready yet. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Hsu_PY_1991-01-21_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource P. Y. Shu Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-01-21 Title A name given to the resource P. Y. Shu interview (video and transcript, 2 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of P. Y. Shu by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Col. P. Y. Shu was a Chinese interpreter for the American Volunteer Group (AVG). After attending college in China, he attained a Masters in municipal government administration from the University of Michigan. As none of the AVG members spoke Chinese, Hsu was recruited as Chief Interpreter, serving also as a liason with the Chinese Air Force. In this tape, Shu discusses how General Chennault came up with the idea of the AVG after viewing the the Chinese cadets in training and the successful first day of fighting in Kunming. He goes into detail of the bombing occuring in Kunming at the time and the reaction to the news of Pearl Harbor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3bb6294735b86db75cfed4b2323e2153.mp4 90dd98a2f8f55443945955ea7cf4dfab https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/68f37e97066641f46dc23cf096d29fee.pdf a1e41d9e37e19adeacc20a33323a3065 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: P.Y. Shu Date of interview: January 21, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [Tape 1] FRANK BORING: Can you tell me your background before you met General Chennault? P.Y. SHU: Well, I was born in China, and I went to, after graduating collage, I went to University of Michigan for MA degree in municipal government, administration. Then, I came back after three years to be a professor in university in Shanghai. Then, Chow air force cadet, Chengchow, this cadet school teacher, he ask some good translators to translate some English spoken by AVG folks about air force to teach the student. So I was well then to translate books and later on, of course all takes about three years, then the most of them spoke, then I was the Chief Secretary of American Advisers Office, called Chief Interpreter. Then after couple years, in 1937, General Chennault came from United States. I didn't know General Chennault, then I saw him. He was in the office, he went to Chief Adviser's office. I said welcome in there. That was our first meeting. And then, about a week later, we look together, he said, "Mr. SHU, you are required to join the inspection trip of China, about Chinese air spaces." So I was glad to. I'm afraid of flying. I sat right by a pilot and I'm scare of that. He said, "You'd be all right. We well be right behind you and look after you. Don't be scared. Then, we took the trip 1937 in July, and first went to Hankow, then follow the rail road down to Canton, to south. Then, all flying in that trip, we had two airplanes. Two topless airplanes. �General Chennault, and I was behind him, and another one was called Billie McDonald, and behind him was Sebie Smith, and we went together. I was only interpreter for all of them. None of them speak Chinese, and people over there, they don't understand English. I was only one. And I traveled with them to Canton, stay there for two nights, then come back to Hankow, and flight to north, to Chengchow. From Chengchow to the west, to Loyang. Over there in Loyang, I think it was about July seventh of 1937. In the morning, we stay there the rest of one day, and the command of this school, he ask me to interpret for him, he can't speak English, he said, "You must tell General Chennault, something happened." He said that Japanese attacked Marco Polo Bridge. Thus, we call seven, July seventh day. And General Chennault, he talk to me, "PY, I want to send a wire to Generalissimo." I said, "Sure you can send a wire." He drafted out English, and I interpreted it and sent a wire to Generalissimo. That same on the day, July seventh, just time, Japanese attack Marco Polo Bridge, and Generalissimo wired back. He said, "PY, is that ok if we go to Sian," Sian is the farther west, "and I stay there and we will flew back." Then from Sian back to Hankow. Over the Hankow air, he signed to me like this ... There is an open cockpit of the topless plane. I can't hear of course. He did like this ... and he can't do nothing because he wants me to fall out, he then follow me. Because I did not fall out, he cannot jump and he barely make a sucker (?) to find landing strip. Over the very short landing strip, he landed. He said, "PY, why don't you jump out. That saved your life." I said, "I've never allow you to save my life." He said, "Ok, what a [?]." Then he said, "Engine had a serious trouble, the highest temperature. Air plane would make a fire. That was very dangerous." He said, "You were lucky. You saved yourself, saved me, save the airplane, and save the pilot." I said, "Ok, thank you. That's my pure luck." Then we stay in Hankow in two days, and until the plane repaired by Sebie Smith. Then he said .., General ..., at that time we call him Colonel, He said we will come back tomorrow. I asked where to. He said to Nanking to see Generalissimo. He ask me, "Can you fly back?" I said no. He said, "How do you go back?" I said, "It's simple, by �boat." I said, "You will go there by yourself to see Generalissimo. I won't go there. I will go by boat to Hangchow. Then, later on, I arrived Hangchow in two days, and he got a wire ... General Chong (John?) came together. From that day, I went Nanking to join him after he had a meeting with Generalissimo. Then we stay in Nanking for two weeks, until Japanese attack in Nanking. Then we went to Hankow, then from Hankow, he got a car as Madame's gift, a gift of a nice car. He said, "PY, you will take the car to Kunming." "My Goodness!" I said. "How can you fly? You have no airplane!" "I got Hawk 75." He flew Hawk 75 from Hankow to Kunming. Of course, I drove the car with the luggages, a lot of, much with full of hand, to Kunming. There we met together, stay there. We had a lot of trouble about fighter planes. No fighter planes. And in Kunming, we had air raid almost every day. We had tag out to hide. We couldn't do nothing. Then, General said, "Ok, I'll see Generalissimo," and he went to see Chungking to see Generalissimo. Then agreed that he wants to organized AVG. He said they'll have two hundreds P-40's. I said, "What shall we do with P-40's? British doesn't want it." "I can train them how to use it." Because P-40's were heavy plane. Fast. Not good in combat. No dog fight. He said, "I have technique how to dog fight with P40's and shot down Zeros." General Chennault said ... he always tells Chinese pilots how to fight. I interpreted. He taught how to dog fight. He got to Toungoo and then he came back. He got two hundreds P-40's and rode in Rangoon. That factory was called Central Airplane Factory by I forgot the name. That was American in charge of that factory. We have all of the P-40's, factory sent to Toungoo. FRANK BORING: What was the result of the trip you took with General Chennault and Smith to inspect air bases? P.Y. SHU: He said we have American frontiers, and he said, at that time United States did not declare war to Japan, and United States did not want to getting troubles. So the pilots must be retired to join AVG. �FRANK BORING: Is that right, before AVG, you see different plains and different pilots when you travel with Chennault? P.Y. SHU: He said those pilots went to Toungoo by a boat, to Burma, to Toungoo. All scheduled to get in Toungoo and there General Chennault trained them. In Toungoo, because I was told by General Chennault to look after interpreters, I stay in Kunming. But Tiger Wang, he said we must go to General Chennault. I said what for? I said he is too busy. He said, "That is the order of Generalissimo who wants Tiger Wang to see him and you must go with me." Then we take a flight to Toungoo and so did General Chennault. FRANK BORING: What was your official relationship with Tiger Wang? P.Y. SHU: Tiger Wang was in charge of Chinese affairs on counterpart, which was AVG. All Chinese under General Wang and all AVG under General Chennault work together. I belong to Tiger Wang. That was Chinese Air Force, and my job at that time was in charge of interpreters and liaison with Chinese Air Force with American Air Force, or AVG. There were so many appendix, ground personals, transportation, everything. And there is a radio stations called Ware Out [?] Radio Station. Radio station led and all were Chinese. We have Tiger Wang in charge of that. I was belong to Tiger Wang. Then we went together to see General Chennault in Toungoo. General said, "You must come back. Send your plane back. No more training." We said, "No! There is no one to. Without training we can't fight. No!" He said, "How long does it take?" We said, "Maybe another couple of months." "No. I want here right away!" That Generalissimo told us. "Right away! I want fight with Japanese bombers!" That time Kunming was bombed every day. Chungking was bombed every day. "I want stop it," General Chennault said. "How can you do that? You have no propellers. You have no airplane." He said, "All right, you go back. I'll send their airplanes. Three P-40's." That was really tough. But �of course, General Chennault sent the flight over the Kunming. And General came back to Kunming to direct the fight. I was lucky, you know. One morning he said, "PY, we will watch the fight." � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Hsu_PY_1991-01-21_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource P. Y. Shu Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-01-21 Title A name given to the resource P. Y. Shu interview (video and transcript, 1 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of P. Y. Shu by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Col. P. Y. Shu was a Chinese interpreter for the American Volunteer Group (AVG). After attending college in China, he attained a Masters in municipal government administration from the University of Michigan. As none of the AVG members spoke Chinese, Hsu was recruited as Chief Interpreter, serving also as a liason with the Chinese Air Force. In this tape, Shu describes his upbringing in China and attending the University of Michigan before meeting General Chennault. He also describes the trip he took with Chennault to inspect air bases and act as an interpreter for the group prior to the AVG being organized. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4c5bcf2c59e048e0ee405401110d28e.mp4 5fae61830df6ce885900043278050bf2 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3706ba193b586b2782c35cbd4ba9ecd7.pdf f5f57e32517323d7342e7276c5600d6c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Tex Hill Date of Interview: February 22, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] FRANK BORING: … his time fighting the Communists than he did the Japanese towards the latter part of that. Did you ever get any inklings of that or did you ever, during AVG period time, did you ever hear anything about that or was that anything that was even brought up in conversation? TEX HILL: No I think he kept some of his best armies intact up in the north there. Because after the war they were bitter enemies and just because of necessity, they allied together. The Communists never had used any sizeable force to fight the Japanese. They were just kind of guerillas. They were responsible, of course, for picking up a lot of our people. We had a remarkable recovery of our people, unless they just happened to fall right in the hands of the Japanese, the Communists were the guys who got them out because they were behind the lines all the time. They Communists never committed any big troops at all against the Japanese. But the Generalissimo kept his best armies up there. FRANK BORING: What was your opinion or first impressions, if you will, of Madame Chiang Kai-shek? TEX HILL: Oh she was just a beautiful person, lovely person. She used to come down to the flight line to encourage people, mingle with them and her presence meant a lot to the morale. Because we had a �lot of Chinese help, we used the Chinese a lot. She was very, very generous to us. FRANK BORING: Speaking of the Chinese again, Dick Rossi said he had uncovered some evidence that some of the Chinese were actually trained by Tigers on the P-40's. Do you know anything about that? TEX HILL: Yeah the Chinese Air Force was in name only. I went up to Shin Du, I was hospitalized up there and up at Shin Du was the headquarters, nothing, it had all been decimated and they were just beginning to rebuild. Some of our people I guess did check them out, but a check out in P-40's is just going in and showing a guy how to crank it and take off. Hell I mean you're no piggy-back. Up at Shin Du when I was hospitalized up there I got an opportunity to fly a Japanese I-97, one of the first two airplanes I shot down were 97's and I had an opportunity to fly it and I didn't want to miss it. I couldn't get in it with a parachute on. The damn thing was real small. It throttled backwards, like this, had no trim tabs, had a skag, no tail wheel. So they showed me how to start it. It had a kind of a funny fuel system on it. You had a high octane fuel about a gallon that you'd start and take off and land with that and then you switched over to a low octane fuel. Anyway I got it cranked up there and started cracking that throttle to taxi out and so it started to move and when it started to move I just instinctively cut it back and I threw it wide open and of course I was airborne in about 100 yards. I rassled that damn thing around, finally felt like I could walk away from it, I stalled it a few times out at the field and came back in and landed. I'll tell you who wrote an article on that, it was - do you remember a guy named Spenser Moosa? Spenser Moosa wrote an article on that thing. FRANK BORING: I understand you were present at Chennault's funeral? TEX HILL: I was one of the pall bearers, yes. FRANK BORING: Can you describe that at all? �TEX HILL: Well they had a small funeral. Anna called me about 11:00 at night and I think she was a little bit worried because the old man, you know the relationship with the rest of his family wasn't all that great, so she asked me if the old man wanted me to be a pall bearer, so I go down to New Orleans and they have a small service there that evening. Then the next day SAC sent a plane down and then we flew the body up to Arlington, up to Washington and then all these Generals and people came out of the woodwork and I just thought to myself, where in the hell were they when we really needed support for him. But they all - all the big ones showed up for his funeral. They gave him the full treatment. They had an awful lot of respect for that guy. Everybody there that worked for the old man, they just loved him. FRANK BORING: One of the things that's always disturbed me, and I'd like to get your opinion of this too was when the signing of the surrender of Japan on that ship, that one man wasn't there. TEX HILL: You'd better believe it. That was the most disgraceful thing. And I'll tell you what, General Stratemeyer, who was - I liked him - he was a nice guy, but I think if I'd have been Stratemeyer, I'd have hung my suit up before I'd have taken that man's place over there on that ship, because he never did a damn thing. Stratemeyer never did nothing. But they maneuvered and put him in the position where he would be the senior guy and it was all contrived - and to cheat that man out of the fruits of 7 years of labor over there, why I think that was real bad and I've heard - I don't know how true it is but someone told me that when MacArthur came aboard, he looked around and he said "where's Chennault?" I don't know whether that's true or not but I've heard that several times. FRANK BORING: What is your personal reaction, your personal opinion on the way that the military treated the rest of the AVG? I mean someone like Burma Bob had one hell of a time trying to get back home. What �was your reaction, did you even know that they were having problems? TEX HILL: Well see I didn't, I really didn't. As I say I was always out in the east part of China and I was away from headquarters, so I didn't know a hell of a lot about what was going on, but I do know that for instance, Charlie Mott spent 3-1/2 years in a prison camp over there and he got down and they kicked him off the airplane because he didn't have any I.D. You'd be amazed at the stories that I heard of the guys and their treatment. When I came back the first time, even after I was in the Army Air Corps, and I stopped off then in India and they were having a whiskey, it was rationed - see we had no whiskey over there - but they had it over there in Karachi and I was passing through, I was going to be stuck there for 2 or 3 days, I went in to get it and they said "well you're not in this command, sir". They wouldn't give me a bottle of whiskey. So the guy right behind me said "you can have mine". There was a lot of that, there really was. FRANK BORING: One final question for you. How did you feel about the way they treated you? Why do you think they did that? TEX HILL: Well it's through ignorance. These guys they'd never had any experience. They didn't know what we went through. They had no feel for it at all. And some of the first guys they sent over there were really kind of low grade. There were a few good people but a lot of these guys, some of them would come over there with a lot of rank and they had no experience and that was one of our big problems. But we didn't have it so much because Casey Vincent, General Vincent, I don't care what rank I had, when he came over there why he sent him right down to our squadron level and he'd fly missions just like a GI until he learned the business and then he'd bring him up on his staff, but he had to fly every mission that we were charged with. �FRANK BORING: One final question that has to do with Chennault. I've asked this of everybody. If he was sitting in the room with you or standing in the room with you, what are you seeing, what do you see when you looked at him? The facial description or just the way you looked? TEX HILL: You know he always looked kind of stern faced. But he was so funny, you'd talk to him about different things, little anecdotes that he would come up with. He'd say like "Now Tex" he said "if you want teach a dog tricks, first you've got to be smarter than the dog." Stuff like that you know. And he always had an answer for something. I remember when I took the first 51's into combat and I thought we were just going to really eat them up. So I took the Squadron Commander and flight officers always flew my wing and another guy, Colbert?, who was flying the Squadron Commander's wing and went down to Hong Kong and looked up and I saw 3 airplanes that I'd never seen before. I knew they were Japs because I'd never seen them, so I called them out and pulled into them and when I did, why they went straight up, I saw we couldn't stay with them, so we rolled over and they rolled over and shot those three guys down with me. They were with me and so they riddled me, they chased me on down to about 8000 feet and I got back to Kweilin. So I told the old man, I said "we ran into a new type up there. I don't know what it is yet, one hell of a big radial engine on it." I said "I don't think we can beat them in the air with what we've got." He thought a minute and said "Oh Tex don't worry about that, get them on the ground, then you don't have to fight them in the air." So that's what they did, they went up to Shanghai and a lot of these other areas where they had them and wiped them out. Chuck Older was in on a lot of that strafing those fields up there in the Shanghai area. Then the other thing, I never will forget when we first went down to Kweilin to look over the field, they had an alert and we were up on top of one of the little ice cream cone hills, typical of that country, and the Chinese had an antiaircraft battery up there. Well this Jap came in there and he put on an air show like you wouldn't believe right over the place, strafing, whatever. There wasn't anything there. So the old man �told the battery Commander, he said "why don't you shoot that guy?" He said "oh no, if I shoot at that guy he'll come back and really work me over." And Chennault said "don't you know if you shoot that guy, he can't come back." That's the way his mind worked, he said "you shoot the man down, he can't come back." He was a great guy. I really, really missed him. I used to fly down to see him before he died and I'd land at Monroe and Anna would come out and pick me up and I'd go back and spend time with him - oh maybe a couple of hours and then fly on back to San Antonio. He'd go out and show me the garden, he loved that and show me the fish he'd caught. He enjoyed it. FRANK BORING: Did he ever talk to you about what it meant to him that he wasn't on the Missouri or none of that huh? TEX HILL: Never, no never complained about not being on the Missouri. He knew he should have been on and when he came back, I'll never forget it, I flew down to New Orleans and, flew a 51, went right down the main street. Casey Vincent came in from another area there and we had those two 51's we went right down the damn main street right on the deck, but the Mayor was a guy named Maystry [?]. Man you talk about a guy that's a thug - I mean this guy was really something, but he laid it out for Chennault. That town - you talk about a ticket tape parade! They really laid it on for him. They really appreciated it. But Chennault never was - he never seemed to be - I'm sure it hurt him deeply and felt that he should be there. But I asked him one day, I said "you know you're up here, you've got all these damn problems and these guys, you have to not only fight the Japanese but you're having to fight the guys over in India to get anything done." He said "Well, Tex it makes my job a lot harder, but I know what my job is and I'm going to do my job every day to the best of my ability. If the other guy don't do his, it's going to make it harder for me, but I'm going to do mine every day." And that's kind of the way he operated. �FRANK BORING: I know he was fairly modest, but did he ever talk to you about what he felt he had accomplished out there? Did he ever talk about, not just the good old days kind of recollection, but did he ever tell you about what he thought the AVG was all about? TEX HILL: No, other than what I expressed earlier. I think that he felt the same way, that we kept China in the war and that was our big contribution. Well, later on after the AVG broke up, of course the 14th Air Force, they really hurt the Japanese. Just wiped out all the shipping, there just wasn't any. You couldn't take a row boat down the coast over there. FRANK BORING: There's been a lot of - especially with the press and Life Magazine and Union League and all these various books that have come out characterize the Tigers as this band of guys that were hard drinking and hard fighting and all that. How do you personally characterize the Tigers? What were the AVG? TEX HILL: Well they were all professional people. You take a group of guys that are trained in the military in those days, that training was the best in the world. Chennault was able to take a group of guys like that from different branches of services and just in a very short period of time we had one of the finest fighting outfits in the world. FRANK BORING: Okay. I think we got it. TEX HILL: I think I'm gonna have a Bloody Mary. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Hill_Tex_1991-02-22_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hill, David Lee Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-22 Title A name given to the resource Tex Hill interview (video and transcript, 7 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of David Lee "Tex" Hill by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Tex Hill served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) as Squadron Leader to the 2nd Squadron "Panda Bears." Prior to joining the AVG, he served in the US Navy as a torpedo and dive bomber pilot and SB2U-2 pilot. During his AVG service, he became a double ace and had more than twelve victories against the Japanese. In this tape, Hill describes the day of General Chennault's funeral and the respect everyone had for him, in addition to how the military treated the rest of the AVG and their difficulties returning home. He closes the interview with how he would characterize the Flying Tigers and their place in history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng