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                    <text>Good News of Cosmic Dimension
Eastertide I
Text: I Corinthians 15:22; Matthew 28:19
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
April 6, 1997
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Easter is focused on Jesus. That's quite understandable, because Jesus is the one
who was raised from the dead, and so our liturgy, the music, the anthems - all of
it is very much focused on the risen Lord. That's understandable. But, I want to
say to you this morning that Easter is not so much a matter of Christology, that is,
the doctrine of Christ, as it is theology, that which is about God and that which
God has affected. Resurrection was God's mighty act. Resurrection was God's
sign, a sign in the midst of history of cosmic significance and eternal dimension.
Easter is good news. Good news for the cosmos about God's intention, God's
"Yes" to life, God's "No" to death, God's "Yes" to love, God's "No" to hate, God's
"Yes" to light, God's "No" to darkness. It is understandably a story that lifts up
Jesus, but it is more profoundly a story about God.
Jesus died. If you followed or participated in the drama of Holy Week, if you were
here on Maundy Thursday when the sanctuary grew dark and the altar was
stripped and we left in silence, if you were here in the meditative, somber mood
of Good Friday, if you came to the Easter Vigil and saw the sanctuary engulfed in
darkness, then you know that Christian faith acknowledges that Jesus died. Jesus
died a human death. Jesus as a human person entered into the powerlessness of
death. As far as Jesus was concerned, it was over, which is why the brightness of
Easter Sunday is not because of something intrinsic in Jesus, but of something
intrinsic in God, the Creator, the One Who will not allow death to reign. God's
way is life. That is Easter. It is a theological affirmation. It tells us something
about God and it is the good news that in the end, there is life !
Paul understood that. Paul was one who was absolutely gripped by that vision of
the risen One whom he knew had been crucified but now knew to be still living,
and who had called him to tell this good news, particularly to the Gentiles. After
he founded the Church in Corinth, he kept in touch with them via letters, like the
two epistles to the Corinthians. They were raising some questions, and so, in his
letter, the one we call First Corinthians, he deals with this matter of resurrection.
He cannot express its truth, its mystery. He stumbles and stammers around as he
tries to give expression to it, but of this he is quite convinced - that the whole of
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the Christian Gospel, the "Good News" has to do with the fact that God raised
Jesus from the dead. He tries to explain the magnitude of what has happened by
borrowing from the Genesis story, the Creation Story, the story out of Israel's
tradition where, through the disobedience of one man, Adam, death came upon
all. He says, as it were, Jesus is the new Adam, the second Adam, and as death
came to all through one man, so life comes to all through one man. As in Adam all
died, so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Notice that the Hebrew thinking was always corporate, always concerning the
total community. So when he said, "in Adam all die," he meant all humankind
die. There was a commonality of the human story, which was under the sentence
of death. In the light of God's action, raising Jesus from the dead, Paul saw a sign,
a sign that that sentence of death was not ultimate. Rather, the ultimate, final,
last exciting word was life. As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive.
It is as inclusive on the one hand as it is on the other - and here is where we sense
Paul's strain of universalism. For what he is saying is that God's action in Jesus
has implications for the whole human family. This Good News, the raising of
Jesus by the power of God was a sign, a light, an indicator, a marker, something
that could be laid hold on and believed in and hoped in for all of us. Paul had had
a particular revelation, but he understood it to have a universal application. A
transformation of the whole of reality, which he understood to embrace the whole
of humankind.
Now Matthew had a similar understanding of the momentous transforming
power of the resurrection. Matthew's Gospel is the only Gospel that sees Jesus'
ministry, pre-crucifixion, as focused strictly on Israel. Did you know that? The
reason we don't know that is that we don't study these Gospels as units having
their own context and their own message. We throw them all into the blender and
pour out a homogenized Gospel. We pick up a little of Matthew, a little of Mark, a
pinch of Luke and a dash of John, and we get one blended picture. But, Matthew
has Jesus, pre-Easter, interested only in Israel, the Jewish people. He only talks
to two Gentiles in Matthew's Gospel. One is that Syro-Phoenician woman.
I love the way Krister Stendahl talks about that story. He tells it as one of his
students preached it one day. Jesus and his disciples needed a retreat, so they
journeyed into the countryside, beyond the precincts of Israel. A woman
approached them there, pleading with Jesus to heal her daughter. The disciples
said, "Go away. We're on retreat. The master said if we don't do this once in a
while, we'll burn out. Go away." Well, she was not going to take their "no" for an
answer. They said to Jesus, "Do something about this woman." So he says, "Look,
I am sent to none but the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Can you imagine
Jesus, meek and mild, shunning this woman, saying, "Look, it's Israel, not you"?
She said, "But I have a great need." He said, " I can't give the food on the table to
the dogs." This is Jesus, now, referring to the woman and Gentiles as dogs. She
was quick. She responds, "Look, under the family table there are crumbs which

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the dogs may eat." Jesus is taken aback and replies, "Woman, that's some faith. I
have never found such a faith even among my own." And he healed her daughter.
There was one other exception he made, and that was for the servant of a
Centurion who was ill. He healed that servant. That Centurion also demonstrated
great faith. If you read in Matthew's Gospel, you will find the story, but you don't
find the reason that Jesus responded to that Centurion. You have to go to Luke
for that. But, it's obviously the same story. Luke says, when the Centurion came,
the elders of the synagogue came over to Jesus and they whispered in his ear,
"Help him out. He paid off our building debt." True. True story. Luke 7:1, you can
read it yourself!
Two times only he addressed Gentiles in the book according to Matthew. For the
rest, the pre-Easter Jesus was interested solely in Israel. When he sent out the
disciples on their missionary journey, he said, "Go through the cities of Israel. Do
not go any place where there are Gentiles." He said, "You're going to have enough
to do before the end comes. You won't get through all the cities of Israel."
Yet it is this Gospel, Matthew, that concludes with what the Church always calls
The Great Commission: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every
creature, to the nations, to the Gentiles, teaching them, healing, baptizing them
in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." That's the conclusion of
Matthew's Gospel, post-Easter.
Now remember, this book is written six decades down the line. There's already
now a Christian Church, a Christian community. I think we have to admit that the
resurrected Jesus did not gather with those disciples and say to them, "Go to all
the world and teach the Gospel and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son
and Holy Spirit." If that had been done, if it had been that clear a few days after
Easter, there wouldn't have been such a struggle in the early Church to find out
who they were and what they were supposed to do. Obviously, Matthew is taking
the whole story of Jesus and then he's giving a distillation of what now is his
understanding of the resurrection, what the implications were. For Matthew, the
implications of Resurrection were that this one who had been focused strictly on
Israel had now, by the power of God, been raised up to create good news for a
broader community. Now was the time to break out of Israel's particularity and to
create a community universal and inclusive, of all the nations, of all people. This
Good News had universal implications for the building of another community.
Krister Stendahl likes to say that Israel was Laboratory One. God's Laboratory
One. Israel understood itself as a particular community that was, in its life, to be
a light to the nations. And now it was time for Laboratory Two; now it was time to
break out of that narrow community and to have, well, Gentile time. It was a
broadening, a building of a new kind of community that was inclusive, that was
universal, that was for all.
Stendahl also notes that the Jewish people believed itself to have a particular
revelation of the one true God, and the truth that it understood was the truth that

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impinged on all people, but what Israel never expected was that all people would
become Jews. Israel was content to be Israel, to live in the light of its revelation,
to witness to that revelation, and to let the positive effects of its witness wash off
on the world, but not everybody was supposed to be a Jew. There was never a
movement to make the whole world Jewish. They were a particular community
with a particular revelation and a particular understanding of salvation, and they
shared it far and wide, but people could receive that light and remain in their
respective communities.
Stendahl believes that Matthew had the same kind of an idea for the Christian
movement. Once again, it had a message, a particular message, a particular
revelation, and it had universal implications. It was for the broadening of that
community of faith, but it was not as though now suddenly the whole world
would have to become Christian. The whole world should be told the good news
and the Good News was for the whole world – Good News, that is, that God, the
Creator, is a God of life and not death, that God is for us, that God has an
intention for the cosmos. And all of that was and is enough to make you dance
and sing, because the news is so good. That in this world where death and decay
are all about us, the ultimate word is life and light and love and community! So,
go tell the world!
With the Christian movement, that's very likely the way it began. Now, the news
was brighter. Now there was an exuberance, there was an excitement, there was a
joy, there was a confidence, so that, in the wake of the resurrection of Jesus, a
movement developed. Have you ever been part of a movement? Movements are
spontaneous. Movements are powerful. Movements are confident. Movements
are passionate! And in the wake of the resurrection of Jesus, recognizing now that
this good news is about God Who says "No" to death and "Yes" to life, this good
news was to be spread everywhere. It was for everybody. It was for the whole
world. For anybody who would hear it and heed it and become a part of it - it was
an open community now.
But, that movement was so powerful, so full of fire, it gained such ascendency
that within two or three centuries it became a force to be reckoned with. And as it
gained in dominance, it became domineering. Then, contrary to the model of
Israel that shared its witness but didn't force everybody to become a Jew in order
to have access to God, the Christian Church linked its particular revelation with a
universal mandate to make everybody like we are. Eventually it gained great
power in its association with the state, with the Roman Empire. And over the
centuries, for 2000 years, it has grown, it has become powerful, and in its wake
we have a tragic history that I think as a Church we've never fully owned up to the Crusades and its brutal intolerance; the Inquisition with its burning of
heretics and forced baptisms; pogroms, anti-Semitism, creating the soil for the
horror of the Holocaust. Why? Because a movement became dominant, powerful.
It had this wonderful vision of God, the God of life; it had this vision to share with
all, but rather than remaining a witnessing community, it became a domineering

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community, coercively using its power to enforce conformity to its particularity as
though that particularity was to be of universal application rather than simply a
universal witness, an invitation.
And now, after almost 2000 years, the Christian Church, which has been so
dominant, is tired. The Church is sick at soul today. Its shrill rhetoric only betrays
its lack of confidence. In those early centuries, it was a movement of joy, it had
power, it was soulful, it was exuberant, it was strong, it was empowered, it was
open, it was excited, it swept the world! But, it's not a movement anymore, not
really. It's an institution. It still has a lot of resources, it still has a lot of wealth, it
still has a lot of numbers, and it can linger perhaps for a long time. But, it's not a
movement; it's not strong, it's not vibrant, it doesn't have soul, it doesn't have
passion, it doesn't have joy unspeakable, full of glory! It is a skeleton of itself. Its
life is a denial of its message and a betrayal of the one who is its founder, who
reached out in compassionate embrace to all.
But, I think we're on the threshold of something new that's breaking. I think
there's going to be a groundswell in this old world of ours. It's breaking out
because good news cannot, finally, be kept under. And the good news is that the
dream is bigger, that the cosmos is one and that all people belong together. There
is underfoot something that will transform the face of the earth. And God knows
if it doesn't happen, we'll destroy each other. Witness our history of divisiveness,
violence, war and devastation. But, we're learning. Here and there, there's a straw
in the wind.
Last Sunday evening we finally made ABC News. Perhaps you've heard. We were
linked with Mohammed Ali, this noble human being who can no longer articulate
for himself. But there he sat, his wife next to him, who said for him, "Muslim,
Jew, Christian - they're all God's children." And then we came on, 9 ½ seconds!
We, too, articulating that the eternal embrace is inclusive. That it is arrogance to
proclaim otherwise. Then later in the evening I caught the last half of the film,
"Gandhi," and I was deeply moved again as that man of India who was so
impressed with Jesus said, "I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian." And
single-handedly, through a spiritual power, changing the landscape of that nation
with all of the chaos and all of the death that ensued, nonetheless, affecting a
transformation through a kind of spiritual vision and methodology that he
learned from Jesus, among others. And, of course, Gandhi influenced Martin
Luther King and there was in this nation a significant address of the evil of
racism. And, as the second millennium is coming to its end, after 2000 years, this
dynamic movement of Jesus People which has become a tired institution,
wondering if it can survive, will yield up its arrogant exclusivity and there will be
a joining of heart and hand, of all people of good faith who believe in God the
Creator of all, Whose intention for all is life and not death, love and not hate, light
and not darkness. Now, there's good news! It is news of cosmic dimension and
eternal significance. And when we catch it again, the passion will return, the

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confidence will return, the joy will return, the power will return, and the world
will be changed! Alleluia!

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Good Religion: Passionate and Intelligent
The Littlefair Legacy,
A Center for Religion and Life Weekend
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
October 10, 2004
Transcription of the spoken sermon

It is a pleasure to sit here once again in your midst, although, in getting ready for
this moment, I realized why I retired. We've had a great weekend. Friday night
was a party at Duba's Restaurant, where else? And it was a wonderful, celebrative
remembering, telling Duncan stories. Yesterday, Dr. Gary Dorrien of Kalamazoo
College, gave two fine lectures, the one about the Chicago School which had a
shaping influence on Duncan, and then one addressing more the contemporary
situation in a manner in which Duncan would have been proud. Now, of course,
this morning, and the session following when we will continue to talk about the
Littlefair Legacy.
This has been a weekend sponsored by The Center for Religion and Life which
cannot really be separated from this community of faith, and the question might
be raised - why are you doing this? I thought perhaps I ought to begin by saying
that we are doing it because we want to keep alive the voice and the spirit of
Duncan Littlefair who made such a great impact on this whole area, particularly
the Fountain Street Church community that he shaped and formed over some six
decades, being a part of it as pastor and pastor emeritus, and the area far beyond.
But we do it too because, more lately, he became a shaping influence in this
community through an intimate friendship developed between us, he becoming
for me as one born out of due time, a mentor in my elderdom, a time when
perhaps I should have had it all figured out. But I continued to find new horizons
opened, particularly by the scintillating mind and passion of Duncan Littlefair. If
he were here on this weekend, he would say, "What's all the fuss?" Dr. Lubbers
mentioned that at his party Friday evening. What is this all about?
I never knew anyone quite like Duncan, who had an unusual giftedness,
brilliance, charisma, force of personality, who was, at the same time, so
unconcerned about self-promotion and would not at all have been happy to be
the center of this kind of celebrative weekend. Yet, down deep I think he knew
that, while he never had it within himself to promote himself or in any way to
perpetuate that which he had shaped and created, nonetheless he was not
unaware of the value of it. From time to time I had conversations with him about
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finding some way to keep that voice and that spirit alive, and he was open to that.
I think he would be pleased that there are those of us who are concerned to
perpetuate the power and the influence of the religious embodiment that he
represented in our midst. We do it here simply because he had come here so
often to worship and loved this place, and in many ways, cast his mantle upon
me. He was present with us when we brought Ian here for the first time and he
was fascinated by Ian and so hopeful and confident for the future of this place
with the leadership of him.
One of the goals that we have in a weekend like this, with the lectures yesterday
by Dr. Dorrien being what we touted as the first annual Littlefair Lectures, is to
establish an annual lectureship, an annual Littlefair Lectureship that will keep
alive that vision and that voice and that spirit of Duncan Littlefair, an endowed
lectureship that annually can bring an outstanding scholar on the cutting edge of
religious thought and study into the West Michigan area, that we might be
reminded every fall or whenever it would occur, that we have had in our midst
one of the greatest religious thinkers and leaders of his generation. It is my hope
that such a thing will be established, perhaps with an endowment at Grand Valley
State University, and then a directorship from Grand Valley and from Fountain
Street Church where Duncan labored all those years, and from Christ
Community. I have met with Dr. Lubbers who will be with us in the hour
following, and former Mayor of Grand Rapids John Logie from Fountain Street
Church, and we are working on this and do hope to bring it into reality.
But, why all the fuss? What's it all about? And I want to say that we have had a
gift in our midst which ought not to be forgotten or not ever to be taken for
granted. We have experienced this gift and can relate to the positive value, the
impact of that life and, thus, I think that it is incumbent upon us to do what we
can in order to keep that spirit alive.
Duncan Littlefair was for decades known as the “Voice of the Liberal” in Western
Michigan, a bastion of conservative, evangelical orthodoxy. He was not unaware
of the fact that the whole conservative community saw him as a threat, suspected
him, and called him by the nickname Dr. Littlefaith. He would simply smile about
that. But the very fact that everyone seemed to be aware of him and threatened by
him and would denigrate him by such a name as Littlefaith was indicative of the
fact that, in this area, he was having an impact far beyond the community in
which he was carrying on his ministry. To have met this man and to come to
know him was to come to experience religion in all of its fullness, in all of its
beauty and all of its positive power.
For me, it is a most remarkable fact of my life, a life that has been given wholly
over to engagement with the religious quest and the religious task, one who was
warped from the womb to be religious, one who was educated for religious
ministry and leadership, one who has done it seriously and responsibly with all of
my being, it is most remarkable to me that I should have come in the latter

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decade of my life to encounter one who embodied religion that caused me to be
"born again," even though I had engaged positively and I think fruitfully in the
religious quest and the religious life. But, I suppose, to be honest, I was one for
whom religion had also been task and burden. And then to come to encounter
one who embodied a religion that was the very poetry of life, that brought forth
the deep inner resources of life, one who lived a religious life that enabled him to
be fully human and to bring the aroma of humaneness to all of those whom he
met was quite amazing. When I met Duncan Littlefair, my life was changed. It
was good religion. It was religion that drew from the depths of reality, bringing to
expression in a magnificent manner the highest possibility of being human.
The toast at Duba's is famous now. Lifting our glasses around that table, "To the
wonder, the miracle, the glory and the joy of life." And that was more than a toast.
For Duncan, it was a way of life, and to be in his presence and to come to know
him in intimate friendship was to be transformed and changed. I was conscious
of it happening. I was conscious of the consciousness with which I began to live
humanly when I came to the encounter with this man.
Good religion is passionate. So much of the religious story, so much of the
Christian tradition story, of which we have been a part, is a story of a very serious
and magnificent religious vision. The whole biblical story born in Israel and
coming to full expression in the event of Jesus Christ and the whole grand
tradition of the Church - all of that has been a passionate, human adventure and
experience. But, that whole tradition came to its expression in a world, in a time,
in an age before the modern period with the explosion of knowledge and our
scientific understanding of the whole cosmic reality. So, what we have inherited,
what has shaped us, our prayers, our liturgies, our hymns, our sacraments, our
manner of devotion - all of that derives from a worldview that has been dissolved
by the application of modern science. That in which we have been nurtured is
reflective of a conception of reality, of a world that is dissolved by the advance of
modern knowledge. And so, we live a bifurcated existence and, if we are aware, if
we are conscious, there is a dissonance between the practice, the Sunday worship
with the forms and the structures that had been given to us and the way we live
the rest of the week, with all of the knowledge that we have of this unfolding
cosmic drama.
In the ongoing life of the church there have been those who have tried to take
seriously the eruption of human knowledge and accommodate the tradition with
our present reality. What happens so often is that, before that advance of
knowledge in our world today, the religious faith, the belief system, etc. has been
reduced and reduced and reduced. Take away this, take away that, give up
miracles, give up prayer, give up whatever, bring it down as far as you can, but
hold on to the biblical worldview, out of custom or fear or superstition, all while a
modern world with all of the knowledge is cascading down upon us. The liberal
theological movement tried to lessen the dissonance by reducing the core of the
faith. But, what has often resulted is an anemic religious experience, believing a

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little less, believing a little less passionately, but knowing the real world is a world
that is being opened up to us by the continuing research and probing of the
sciences in all of the human disciplines, calling the old faith into question.
That wasn't true of Duncan. Duncan had a robust religious experience. As I said
in his memorial service, the man was drunk with God. He was intoxicated with
the Holy and the Sacred, and to be in his presence was to be in the presence of a
human being that was filled with religious awe and wonder. It was shocking to
me. I, who had been prejudiced with the rest of Western Michigan to think of this
humanist, this naturalist as one who must be religiously barren, to find one who
was so passionately religious in the spiritual quest, to whom the toast "To the
wonder, miracle and joy of life" was the center, core and creed of his faith. It was
contagious. To see him stand in awe of the flower, of a blade of grass, of a leaf
turned golden in autumn, to see the joy in his countenance as he sat in his old
wooden rocker by a crackling fire on a dreary, gloomy day, delighting in the
heavy, gray clouds; one who looked you in the eye with penetrating eyes and
loved conversation, and at our Duba's table would insist on one conversation with
everybody at full attention at all times.
This was a human being that was the very embodiment of everything that is
divine, and I stood amazed. For me that heavy obligation of religion, that
burdensome aspect of religion, that controlling, threatening, condemning
dimension of religion, that religious tradition which had weighed heavily upon
me, which I had been working at all of my life to resolve, suddenly fell away
before the beauty of a human being who was the very incarnation of God.
There was no sacrifice of the mind or the intelligence. There was the eager and
ready exploration of every facet of human knowledge, of probing of the depths of
every question, the welcoming of every little piece of data, the delight at every
favorite theory and canon of science that got overthrown by more exploration and
further experimentation in the revelation of new data. The mind was fully free to
soar into all of the realms of human understanding, never a threat, always an
increase in wonder and awe, because religion for Duncan was not some creedal
formulation, not some set of propositions, not some truths deduced from this
Bible storybook. Religion for Duncan was not some canon law of the institutional
church or the favorite formulations of an ancient tradition for, as my good friend
Lester always was fully aware, knowing it in Duncan and, to his distress seeing it
happening in me, finally there is no authority beyond the authority that arises
from within one fully cognizant of the totality of the possibility of human
understanding.
And then reveling in life …not some kind of abject bowing before some
supernatural deity out there, but indeed, as he contended, the whole cosmic
process was coming to expression in the likes of us, the emanation of God from
the creative center, that ultimate Mystery of Being. I love the quote read a
moment ago. Can't you hear Duncan preaching it? It's typical preacher's talk. It’s

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not carefully honed rhetoric. It's not carefully, philosophically expressed. It's the
kind of pulpit talk where the preacher begins to foam at the mouth because
there's something within him that will come to expression. We are the intrusions,
we are the extrusions. What are we - intrusions or extrusions? One pushes in, the
other pushes out. We are illustrations, we are examples, we are God! For God's
sake, we are God!
It's amazing. There isn't anything beyond, you see? But, the beyond has come to
expression in the concrete, the infinite in the finite, and we, the finite
concretization of that Infinite Mystery, have that longing again for the Mystery.
It's a longing to go home. And so, in our very naturalness, we're the ultimate
expression of that which is Sacred and Holy, that one reality of which we are a
part, that one tapestry into which our existence is woven. We are the
consciousness, the voice, the storytellers of that unfolding of God in the one
reality.
Passionate, intelligent, Duncan loved Paul. Of course, he had no time for Paul's
eschatology, the end of the world; he had no time for Paul seeing Jesus as the
atoning sacrifice for the sin of the world. He would say, "Well, Paul couldn't help
himself. Look where he was coming from." But, he loved Paul because Paul had
passion. He loved Paul. Couldn't you see Duncan just like Paul going right into
the Areopagus in Athens, right to the heart of the philosophical center of the
ancient world? Can't you see Duncan going there and looking those greybeards in
the eye and saying to them, "Haven't you heard the latest?"
Paul had a vision, Paul had a passion, Paul was delivered from the burden of
religion. Paul was delivered from all of that striving, all of that load of guilt. Paul
was released by grace in his encounter with Jesus Christ in that vision he had,
and he wanted to tell the whole world about it. Duncan loved that about Paul.
Duncan loved anybody that was passionate about something, somebody that
believed something and wanted to move the whole world.
Good religion is not some anemic non-controversial pablum fed to weak people
who are afraid. Good religion is robust, full of passion, and it has an open mind to
probe to the depths with all of the possibility and potential of human
understanding. Why should we keep that alive? It would be a dereliction of our
duty if we should allow that which we have had in our midst to fade from memory
and fail ourselves and our larger community the opportunity of exposure to that
beautiful, passionate intelligent quest for God in that one drunk with God. He
was the embodiment of religion that makes the human divine.

© Grand Valley State University

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Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee name: David Good
Length of Interview: 34 minutes
Pre-Enlistment (00:15)
•

Childhood (00:17)
o Briefly mentions that he served in the Navy aboard the USS Alaska in the Pacific
as a 1st class petty officer and technician. (00:43)
o Good was born on February 21st, 1925 and was born and raised in Caledonia,
Michigan.
(01:04)

•

Education (01:09)


He graduated from Caledonia High School. (01:12)



The day Pearl Harbor was attacked he mentions that he was either in
school or working in his father’s garage when it happened. (01:26)



While still in high school at age 18 he signed up for the military draft.
(01:45)

Enlistment/Training (02:17)
•

Why he joined (02:18)
o Good went to Detroit, Michigan where he took a round of physical tests and was
selected like many others for Navy service. (02:36)

•

Boot camp (02:48)
o Started his military service on December 24th, 1943 and started basic training at
Great Lakes, Illinois. (03:04)
o Describes in some detail what a typical day in boot camp looked like. (03:15)
o Briefly describes his instructors in some detail. (04:12)

•

Where he went after boot camp and what company he served with (05:05)

�o Attended electronic school at a junior college in Chicago, Illinois for a month
months. (05:16)
o Afterwards he attended Texas A&amp;M College for 3 months all the while training
for electronics’ school. (05:30)
o He then went to Treasure Island, an island outside of San Francisco Bay for the
final phase of his training and was here for 5 months. (05:46)
o After basic training, Good took a 2 week leave to visit home. (06:09)
Active Duty (06:16)
•

Campaign Background (06:45)
o Upon his return to duty, Good boarded a transport ship to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii
where they stayed for about a week. (06:23)
o Boarded another ship which took him to the war zone. (06:36)

•

Living conditions aboard ship (06:54)
o While aboard ship as an electrical technician his ship responsibilities with others
from his unit included taking care of the surface radar air surface radar. (07:05)
o Good describes what the number of ships and what types of ships were found
while in a task group and that outside a task group were the destroyers supported
by U.S. submarines. (07:50)
o Their job entailed protecting the aircraft carriers as they came in. (08:13) Usually
they would be out of port for long periods. His job also entailed like mentioned
before the maintenance of radar operations. (09:11)
o Briefly describes what medals he was awarded after the war. (10:03)
o Good kept in contact with his family on a weekly basis by letter. All of his letters
were censored, so that if he mentioned anything about where they were or what
they were doing it was taken out of his letters. (10:47)
o Briefly describes the type of food he and others were able to eat or what supplies
were always coming aboard whenever they were at a port to resupply. (11:45)
Sometimes their task force would go 50 miles or more to rendezvous with their
supply ships to restock. (12:45)
o During one instance, when the task force was under fire from Japanese cruisers
everyone would go into something called General Quarters. (14:24)

�o For entertainment, military personnel could go to the store and buy food or play
cards. For him he didn’t have much time for entertainment. (15:32)
o Upon completing his service in the Pacific he returned home upon which time he
had a 30 day leave in which he spent getting reacquainted with old friends.
(17:30)
•

China (18:15)
o After the war, Good visited Tsingtao, China where he describes what Chinese life
and culture were like. (18:20)
o Wasn’t allowed to take any pictures while he was there. (19:07)
o The day the war ended the USS Alaska had been ordered to Tsingtao to secure the
place. The U.S. Marines landed and secured the city upon which time Good and
others were able to go in. while there, the Marines found a stockpile of Japanese
rifles with bayonets which they confiscated and he mentions receiving one.
(21:16)

After the Service (22:22)
•

Adjusting to Home (22:32)
o Upon being discharged, he spent the first couple of days relaxing by going deer
hunting and finding out what was going on at his local store. (23:22)
o Went back to college for the next 2 to 3 years attending the University of
Michigan and Davenport University. Afterwards he worked with his dad. (24:02)
o Describes several stories with close friends after his time in the service. (24:34)

•

Reflection (26:02)
o Briefly describes the impact that WWII had on other wars later on. Also mentions
how his service impacted himself and what he learned from the experience.
(26:13)

•

Other stories (27:20)
o Describes one instance in action in which the Japanese were firing on them and
while operating the radar Good could tell what was going on based on what he
saw through the radar. (28:04)
o During another instance, some Japanese airplanes would stay about a mile out of
range of their General Quarter stations. (28:51)

�o During an invasion of an island, the big ships would fire their 16 in. diameter
guns and soften up the beaches so the Marines and Army could go in. (30:28) In
addition to this, Good describes what landing procedures for the landing of planes
entailed. (31:10)
o For Good the most important event of WWII was the dropping of the atomic
bomb. (32:03)

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                    <text>Goodman, Donald
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Donald Goodman
Length of Interview: (1:12:55)
Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “Hello this is a joint production between the Grand Valley State Veterans
History Program, WK T.V voices, and the U.S.S Silversides Museum. My name is Koty
Leroy Rollins and I’m here with Donald Goodman of Muskegon, Michigan. So let’s start
off early I guess, your childhood, what made you sort of want to join the military?”
Well I not only remember Pearl Harbor, I remember when Hitler invaded Poland but I didn’t
want to join then I was only six years old then but as far as– I grew up in World War II and I had
an uncle who went in but even then I didn’t have any enormous desire to go in. (1:18) I went to
school to graduate– Oh, if I can wander from that for a minute– I’m gonna–
Interviewer: “That’s okay, go ahead.”

I was going to say my overall impression in the Army, when I go see people now and I wear my
shirt or I wear the hat and they say “Thank you for your service.” I want to say “Thank you for
your Army.” Because the Army did far more for me than I ever did for it and when I joined–
Why did I join? You know I’m not even sure why I joined, the Korean war started in summer of
1950, I graduated from high school in 1949 and I went on to Navy Pier which is the University
of Illinois, Chicago branch. I was there that was supposed to be a two year college I actually got
three years out of it, in the summer I was working in a chemical factory, in the control lab of a
chemical factory otherwise I had been working, I’ve been working since I was about 12. So I
was going to finish– I was ready to join the Air Force when I was just ready to turn 20 in 1950
and I’d gone there to the Air Force, signed the papers, ready to leave the next week, got
appendicitis. They took the appendix and then the Air Force came and said “Where’s little

�Goodman, Donald
Donnie?” “Well just had the appendix–” “Well we don’t want him for six months.” Said “Okay.”
So I thought I might as well go for another semester, amazingly just then in January on my
birthday I met this cute little gal, I said “You know I can’t go in the military, I might as well
finish up my third year.” And in the meantime– This is in Chicago Heights, Illinois and she was
from Chicago, so we dated and through that winter, that was the first part of 1952 and I got to
thinking you know the Air Force is four years and the Army’s only two. So I walked into the
Army and it wasn’t hard for them to talk me into it, so I joined, left, and then in June the Air
Force came and knocked on my door again and my mother was there and they said, you know
“Does Donnie want to come out and play?” And well no, she said “He’s in the Army.” They said
“Well we’re not gonna go and get him.” As far as why did I join I think I joined, well for one
thing I didn’t want to waste any more money for college, it was my money, it was my dad’s
money but also because everybody’s gone. My mother said “Do you wanna have a going away
party?” I said “Who would come? Everybody I know, Skerwanski’s in the Air Force, Van
Buskert’s in the Army, Otto Bomberg is in the Air Force.” Everybody I could name was gone
and they either dodged the draft by enlisting in something or else they were drafted. So I went
in–
Interviewer: “Okay, so–” (4:54)
But so I went in and to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri and that’s where I went through basic
training, I said in the beginning that I owe the Army much more than anybody owes me, if you
went through my high school yearbook, end of high school– After four years, let’s see what did I
do? Was I on the football team? Well not likely. Was I in basketball? No, in fact the only thing
behind my name after four years, I belong to the auto bond club and I wrote for the college– Or
for the high school newspaper. If you looked at what they did when I finished 40 years of
teaching I was– I had been chief negotiator, contract negotiator for year after year after year for
two different schools, for a public school system and for the college, I was grievance chairman
over and over, they elected me or appointed, whatever they did, the distinguished faculty and as
a matter of fact in 75 years of college they had only bestowed that on like six other people, I
think I was number seven and Jack Branch was number eight. So why? Because the Army, they
helped me find who I was and they did it, well the way they usually do things. When I got in in

�Goodman, Donald
the beginning for some reason I had it in my mind I’m gonna teach you people how to soldier,
although I didn’t, I knew how to shoot a rifle that’s all and I thought “I am gonna be the best
soldier.” At the end of 16 weeks of basic with eight weeks infantry and eight weeks engineering,
the training sergeants picked out four trainees to compete for best trainee, I had no idea they
were looking at me. So there I was, but I never made better than four so I thought later, I really
ought to have a pin made that says “I’m number four!” Out of 250 that wasn’t bad.
Interviewer: “That’s pretty high.”
So they– There’s one thing that was surprise– If you look at the pictures and find pictures of our
outfits this is 1952, they look totally different from anything four years before or in World War II
because when Truman took over– Truman became president in 1945 April when FDR died and
in 1948 he integrated the Army’s– All of the armed forces, so you see pictures of all these
trainees together in the barracks, scrubbing down and doing all that and there’s blacks all over
the place, they were coloreds in those days but when I got on permanent duty, permanent cadre
as a company clerk, we had some strange here and there. (8:27) Some of the southerners “I aint
taking a shower with him.” Or “I ain’t sleeping next to him.” You wanna bet? They– So some of
them had a hard bringing up to get used to that. Anyway in basic training there was one night
that kind of stuck– It does stick in my mind and I can’t imagine how some of these guys
underwent real combat, in this basic training thing what we did we were– It was supposed to be a
commando raid and we were supposed to cross the big piney and take a hill. Well we got eight
blanks in our M-1s and we’re supposed to be quietly paddling these boats that held about a dozen
guys across the river and then sneak up the hill side and not bother– Of course the first person
to– First boat made enough noise that the machine guns up on top were going full blast by the
time we got there and you were supposed to push this boat, it held about ten people– Ten guys,
push it out into the water and then pile in and paddle across, we had no training in paddling,
there was no instruction on paddling at all, we were supposed there, land the boat, they had one
person in charge of piloting– In charge of the boat to steer it I guess and he was going to stay
with the boat and we were supposed to run up this hill and shoot eight shots to show our good
intentions and then turn around and run back and get in the same boat. Well you got in any boat
you could, after that– To make it more realistic they were using quarter pound blocks of nitrous

�Goodman, Donald
starch and they would cap the fuse, and fuses work well even under the water, this is like–
Probably has the same speed as dynamite, I don’t know maybe 13,000, 13,000 feet per second.
Anyway it was not as fun– Anyway these were little blocks, they looked like– Kind of looked
like a stick of butter and they– Then they throw it, they were out there in the water and go boom!
Whoosh! And boom! Whoosh! All around and with the machine guns up there [machine gun
noises] and all the noise and so we heard boom! Whoosh! Boom! Whoosh! And then we heard
Womp! And what was that, well it seems the boat in front of us, that’s supposed to cross in front
of us, the guys had hauled it out into the water, piled in but they piled in too soon and it went
down and dragged on the river bottom and so they could– Half of them jumped out and tried to
pull it, the commanding– The sergeant who was running these things and throwing the nitrous
starch in the water he grabbed them and pulled them and they turned the boat so it was all
cockamamie– Yeah that’s what it sounded like. Anyway– I didn’t know we had sound effects
here. They got turned around and they’re paddling, some are paddling this side and that side and
I think some were paddling in the air and they twisted around and went right over one of those
charges.
Interviewer: “Oh no.” (12:00)

So instead of boom! Whoosh! It womp! Cause it blew the bottom out, and there they are
screaming cause I imagine some of them had broken legs by that time, and the motor is there we
can see it not that far ahead of us, floating, twisting around, and they’re screaming cause they’re
hurt and some of them are still paddling and the boat is sinking because it’s got a big hole blown
in it and I just remember the insanity. Oh I know we were gonna stop and help them and the
sergeant is yelling to us “You’re on a mission, you don’t stop you’re on a mission!” So the whole
insanity of the reality of the high explosives and the reality of these guys hurt and the insanity of
the shots, blanks. It’s stuck in my mind, I still think of it, I can’t imagine what these guys who
have been through real combat are like because that’s the one night in basic training I remember.
Interviewer: “They didn’t–”

�Goodman, Donald
So I don’t– Oh we got back, we went up and shot our eight and [gun noises] and then came back
and when we got back they were already there was an officer standing on top of some platform
and he was saying “We have never had an accident in this operation before.” But they did,
people did get hurt, they– And one thing that ticked me off about the Korean– The records of the
Korean War, they tell you– And I don’t want to downplay Vietnam, Vietnam they said they had
killed 58,000, in the Korean war they’re divided, they’re still arguing about how many got killed
in accidents and maneuvers. They say “Yeah 36,000 got killed in Korea.” But there’s arguments
about whether there was actually 18,000 killed in maneuvers. I, as company clerk, I can’t
remember ever filling out a death certificate, I sent a lot of people to the hospital mostly with
ammonia but I ran into a couple of other accidents when I was a company clerk, they bring
people in. Oh my God, a friend of ours had the craziest kind of accident imaginable, he must
have been one of the last people who suffered from a poison gas. So what had happened was this,
he was– Ellsworth was his name, great guy, he lived– Later on when Betty and I were living on
the coast, I got married in the Army, and we– I think his trailer was right down from ours,
anyway or poor Dan Ellsworth, he’d been through Korea and he has a number of medals, he
wanted to make– Wanted to make the Army a career, fine. (14:53) Then he went to skip troops
and learned to ski, and then he came to– They shipped him to Fort Leonard Wood, God knows
why, and okay he wanted to be in the training part and wanted to teach, and they put him in
CBR, chemical, biological and radiological training. Okay, we had to go– Besides going through
the gas chamber, tear gas chamber which everybody remembers real well, they also took the
trainees and ran them through light concentrations of other poison gas and I think a phosgene and
mustard and I don’t know what other one. Okay, his job was to set one of these off, he had a
tomb of– And I think it was Phosgene, I’m not sure, and then he had two blasting caps taped to it
and they were wired to each other and then the long wires– And I think they were maybe 15 feet
long and he was supposed to put that out there where– Set it off and as soon as– While the stuff
was still in the air they’d run the trainees through this so they could smell poison gas and see
what it was like. He pulled the shunt on the caps, the– Do you know anything about explosives?
Interviewer: “Not much.”

�Goodman, Donald
Okay they’ve got the blasting– Got a blasting cap, looks like about half of a wooden pencil, then
it got– And that’s a high explosive and when you– And what– And it’s got two wires and of
course the wire when electricity comes it will spark and set off the pin and so you should never
pull that shunt until you’re just about ready. Well he was in a hurry and he was carrying this tube
of poison gas with two blasting caps, fortunately he wasn’t pinching it he was just holding it
lightly, he pulled the shunt and walked across the field and must have picked up static electricity
because all of a sudden bam! There he is with his fingers blown back and flopping and he
squatted down then and actually sat on his heel, which was smeared with mustard gas that had
been there from whatever the last one was. So he went into the hospital as a victim of poison gas
and they had to fix his– Try and save his fingers, which they did, and then take care of this thing
back here and every lieutenant around would come there and say “Half mass soldier, I want to
see it, I’ve never seen a mustard gas blister.” So have to pull his skivvies down, and so I talked to
him, went to visit him in the hospital and I said “Is that embarrassing?” “Nah.” He said “It could
be but I like to shove my but in the face of those damned officers.” He said “I’m hoping for a
major.” But he never got one.
Interviewer: “The best out of a bad situation right?” (18:08)

I never did know what happened because I got graduated, yeah I got discharged before.
Interviewer: “So you were in Fort Leonard Wood from what dates?”
From June 1952 to June 1954 and after basic they sent me to Company C’s headquarters, and I
was like– The time they because the time they had me opening there I was a company clerk, their
company clerk had been promoted to first sergeant, and then we got another first sergeant. What
happens– I don’t know if you’ve talked to anybody in a training outfit but by the time you get
through, with most training outfits the way they change personnel so fast, you should really read
Catch-22 because if you read Catch-22 you find that the one who’s running the entire war is PFC
Wintergreen and so much– So many of our outfits were run by the company clerk and the supply
sergeant and that’s what happened, you wound up– Even if you only had one strike, you wound
up taking on jobs, answering questions, filling out forms, signing form and in effect–

�Goodman, Donald

Interviewer: “You were running it.”

I looked at– With my first we had– But I had a really good company commander at first, then he
got transferred to someplace else, then I can’t remember who followed up but we had– He had
brought in this big World War II hero who was one nasty– So God he was mean and you could
see he had ghost stripes, in other words he had been sergeant at one time and he was no more so
he got busted for something and we– Captain Gollenstein got him another stripe, so he’s there,
we always call him sergeant. He gave me stories of World War II like I don’t want this guy on
my side but I don’t want him on the other side either and so he was– He’d come in drunk, really
drunk, and the meet up troops– Meet up trainees, we got 250– When I got assigned there as
company clerk we had 250 civilians every eight weeks and run them through, teach them
infantry basics and how to salute and march and so on and then the next– Then we’d get– They’d
be gone and we’d have the next bunch the next day and so I was processing a lot of that stuff but
I remember this one sergeant, our first sergeant, and he was standing in front of me just like
you’re right there and I was doing whatever and I look at him and he says “I hear you’re gonna
testify against me at my court martial.” (21:20) I said “Those are my orders sergeant.” And he
leaned forward and he said “Make it good I want to get out of this fucking Army anyway I can.”
Well I didn’t have to tell them much, I could testify to his being AWOL, I could’ve cover it up,
the AWOL I’d done that for people before but he didn’t want that. I didn’t have to say anything,
the trainees that testified against him were enough, he got a less than honorable discharge and
away he went, and he was replaced by a friend of mine who was a full time pistol shooter. He
was on I don’t know how many teams and he was always gone so company clerk takes over his
job, then the next– Then he was transferred someplace else, I forget who came in after he did,
and then some place in there as I say we had– The Army was– All of the colored troop
organizations were dissolved, they were spread out and reassigned and we got this one sergeant
who had been– He might have been in World War II, anyway he was a full sergeant and he came
in but he didn’t– What, not Gonzalez, Lee Gonzalez was the supply sergeant, and what he and I
wanted was a company commander who just let us do things, let us take care of things, and as
first sergeant it didn’t matter, that didn’t get into our way because we had a nice running.

�Goodman, Donald
Interviewer: “Yeah, it was a smooth operation.”
Yeah, it was going well and there was Sergeant– I don’t want to slip and tell his name, let me
call him Jones. So Gonzalez, Lee Gonzalez was the supply sergeant he and I were close and he
said, middle of summer, he said “You know where Jones is?” And I said “No I haven’t seen him,
I mean they come and go and come and go.” And he said he’s over there in the captain’s office,
sitting behind the stove, it’s a coal stove in the summer and he’s just sitting there with his hands
folded and he’s looking off like that and then he’s looking over here, and that’s what he’s doing
for a couple of hours at a time. Said “Well what do you think?” He said “Well you can try and
talk to Cunningham.” Who was next door in battalion and he said “You know what are you
gonna do? Call up the regiment and say ‘I think my first sergeant is crazy’ do you have any idea
how many company clerks think their first sergeant is crazy, what’s it gonna– Is he bothering
you?” “No.” “Well leave him then.” I said “What the heck?” He doesn’t need anything to be
gone for hours and then he’d come back, he never did do– So but one time he, this was one of
the scariest nights I had, he went on leave to East St. Louis and came back with a social disease
after a while he discovered he had so he went in to the medics and talked to them. (25:00) While
he was there he was explaining to the doctor exactly how the world operated and instead of how
you think it is and so they just kind of kept him and the next thing we know well we’re getting
orders that he’s being transferred to some hospital out east and we should box up his foot locker
stuff and they’d come and store it someplace. We said “What about his car?” Because there was
a number of times on Monday morning where I’d round up the jeeps and he couldn’t remember
where he’d left his car and he’d have parked it God knows out in some rain in someplace and
Leonard Wood is a big place and how he made it back I don’t know or where he spent the– But
he’d be there Monday morning, couldn’t find his car. So I ask what about his car and they said
they don’t know so somebody found it out there and stick– Yeah I don’t know, I called the motor
and said winter was coming, I said “I don’t know what shape this thing is, it’s got no business
being there so better tow it and take it to motor pool to store.” They have storage, so but that’s
the end of it, check the end of that, and it was months later I was going to the movies and I came
bouncing back in and the CQ– I had a– I was supposed to point people to BCQ, you know charge
a quarter at night to be supposed to answer the one phone we had on the company, and he was
sitting back there and he had this funny look on his face and I came up and I thought “What–”

�Goodman, Donald
And I could see from his eyes and he looked over “Oh well, Sergeant Jones!” There he was, full
uniform, medals, all that “How are you doing?” Well what do you say, you know I did think
“Yeah you were crazy, did they fix that or what?” You know.
Interviewer: “That feels like not a very good opening line.”
No it’s not the way to go.
Interviewer: “You’re crazy, did they fix that?”
I said “Oh!”
Interviewer: “Did you escape?”
Said “You’re back?” “Yeah.” But we got no paperwork he wasn’t back to us because by then we
had a different– I had a different first sergeant who was well into booze and he was just as
useless as anybody else which was fine as far as we’re concerned. (27:28) So [unintelligible]
“Oh good to see you” And he said “Goodman you know what happened to my car?” I said “Yeah
we finally found it out there.” He said “Where is it?” And I said “It’s in storage, bought it.” He
said, I forget the order anyway he asked me “What’d you do?” I said “We had it towed back.”
He said “How did you do that, wasn’t it locked up?” And I said “Yeah I had to break a window,
broke my way in, unlocked it, had it towed away, and then we had– I had them drain the radiator
and the battery there.” He said “Who broke the window?” “I broke it.” Because I’m not gonna lie
and he stood up, patted me on the shoulder “You’re a good man Goodman.” And walked out the
door. I was–
Interviewer: “What a crazy individual. I guess you got–”

Never know what happened to him, we gave– We had no paperwork, no way for me to check up
on anything, why should I check up on his car, but that was one of the weirdest nights. Anyway
when– Yeah, his successor was– Then we had, oh we had a first lieutenant who was just–

�Goodman, Donald
Screwed up one way or another. I got the phone call and the phone said, they said “You’re due
for prisoner chase in company C.” “Okay, we need a name.” Well I’m tired of being in here
anyway, said “Corporal–” I was corporal by then “Donald J. Goodman RN 1-6-4-1-5-6-0-9.”
“Okay.” And didn’t think any more about it and then got the order and the company commander
lieutenant there he– A couple of weeks he said “Goodman! You’re on prisoner chase.” I said
“Geez how did that happen? But– Must’ve been random or something.” Okay so I was assigned,
I was assigned and I can’t remember, I keep trying to remember this, memory doesn’t work all
that– If there were three of us then we had to pick up five prisoners, if there was five of us then
we had to pick up seven prisoners. I’m pretty sure that it was just three of us that what we had to
do was take the train and wear class B uniform which was all dress, tie the whole bit but combat
boots and of course we had to pick up pistols, we had to pick up our 45 Colts. Anway, so we
went to– I didn’t know these other guys and two of us were corporals, the other one I forget
what, so we got up there and I had already been read the orders for a prisoner chase from the
same sort of thing. Go to Sheraton, pick up your prisoners, handcuff them, bring them back
through Chicago and deliver them to such and such, takes two days okay. When we got there to
check out our pistols in the ordinance they said “You guys are all qualified with a 45 aren’t
you?” (30:55) No, nobody was, he said “Anybody ever shoot a 45?” I said “Yeah I’ve shot
targets.” “Okay, you’re in charge.” “That’s good, I like that.” Because I had plans and they– So
we got our pistols, can’t put your clip in until you get your prisoner, well we got our pistols and
our handcuffs and we’re off– Oh.
Interviewer: “Must be a boat.”

Yeah we never had those down in Fort Leonard Wood. So we got out and I had all the chips for
meals and the orders and the whole bit and my wife doesn’t like me to tell this story but I’ll tell
it. So we were on the train going from St. Louis up to Chicago and I said “How’d you guys– I
know they’re expecting us at Sheraton, how’d you like to spend the night in Chicago?” And they
said “Can we do that?” And I said “Well I’m in charge, I say you can.” Never give a guy two
stripes God knows what he’ll do with the power, we got there in Chicago to the Randolph Street
Station and I said “We’ll have to find a place for you to stay and you gotta pay for it.” “Okay.”
So in those days they had a monstrous Chicago telephone directory but the truth was for a guy in

�Goodman, Donald
uniform all he had to do was ask any cop “Hey is there a hotel I can stay at here a while?” So
they decided– I think they asked a cop and they went to the YMCA and stayed there, said “Well–
” Said “I’m not staying there.” “Okay.” And I said “I’ll meet you tomorrow morning seven
o’clock at the Randall Street Station we’ll take that up to Sheraton, pick up our prisoners, bring
them back, walk them through the loop, and to change stations we had to walk from Randall
Street Station to the Union Station, yeah and then catch that to St. Louis so I said “We gotta do
something with these pistols, why don’t you check– They probably have a safe there at the Y,
why don’t you just check them in there? Whatever you do, don’t get arrested, whatever you do
don’t get drunk, no drinking.” “Okay, fine.” They said “Where are you going?” I said “Oh I
know where I’m going.” Well nine four– I left them there and set off praying that they wouldn’t
get drunk or arrested or into trouble there in Chicago while I took the I.C down to 63rd street I
think and then took a trolley down to 85th cause I was going to 914 West 85th Street where this
cute little gal that I married two months before was waiting. Mind you this is long before there’s
any cell phones so everything we had arranged we’d done by writing or by plain telephone.
(34:17) So that’s where I headed walking through Chicago with my big pistol on my hip and
taking the– So stayed there, that was better than the Y, got up in the morning and cleaned up and
took the trolley and took the I.C train back and prayed that these guys would–
Interviewer: “Didn’t do anything stupid.”

Meet me at the Randall Street Station.
Interviewer: “Did they get there?”
They were there bright and chipper, I said “Did you have a good time?” “Oh yeah!” I said
“What’d you do?” They said “We went to the movies.” “Okay.” I said “Where’d you eat?”
“Wimpy’s” You got this Chicago cuisine in front of you and you eat at Wimpy’s? Yeah, it was
better than the mess hall, so we went and picked up our five prisoners, yeah five prisoners, two
of them together and then I picked the biggest guard I had and fastened him to the other oddball,
and we’d been warned don’t let them– The last prisoner chases, prick chasers, lost one, you don’t
want to lose one because– No we don’t because we got our old handcuffs there, I don’t want to

�Goodman, Donald
be wearing them. We got them back just fine, we got the [unintelligible] walked down through
the loop from station to station, so it was kind of fun.
Interviewer: “So what were you getting these prisoners for?”
I don’t know, I don’t remember what they were, I doubt that they were desperate murdering
criminals or mass murderers, my guess is they were guys who got home sick and ran away to
home and then they let them– And MDs let them sit there for 30 days and if they still had their
uniform then they charged them with AWOL, if they destroyed their uniform desertion, and this
was war time you didn’t want to be charged with desertion. So they were probably heading for
Korea, after they finished they’d go– They’d finish basic training under the gun, we had a
number of guys who went through our basic training outfit with guards right behind them and
I’m sure they got shipped off to Korea. So I can’t believe that these guys were anybody that was
that dangerous, I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “So these were like Army guys that ran away?” (36:36)

Yeah they were just Army guys yeah, they were just trainees.
Interviewer: “Okay, I didn’t know if you were just like picking up random prisoners to
draft into the Army.”
No they’d been in and I’m sure they just got home sick and ran away home and so the MPs came
and knocked on their door and said “Can Bobby come out and play?” And then they took them to
Sheraton, so they never asked us as Sheraton where we spent the night before, I was glad about
that.
Interviewer: “It’s probably a good thing.”

�Goodman, Donald
But the Army did that for me, I belong to the Autobahn club in high school but I was– They had
taught me this is your mission, that one awful night that blew things up, and if you got a job to
do you do it and so I had in mind that I had a job to do and it’s too late to court martial me now.
Interviewer: “There you go. You mind if I ask a few questions about basics?”
No go ahead, I’m sorry I knew I’d ramble.
Interviewer: “No it’s okay, it’s interesting stuff I never even knew we did that but so one
thing that was really sort of outline in my historical background in classes on this is that
the training for Korea and Vietnam, like the basic training, had nothing to do with what
the combat was actually like there.”
I will tell you, I think now looking back over it, when we had cities and training and shoot ‘em
up training in town and villages, there were no hooches there, they didn’t teach– We weren’t
shooting up Korean hooches those were European towns that we were– I think they were
preparing us to fight Europe– In Europe. (38:20) That was what– And our chant– I don’t know
how much you’re going to do about editing this but besides chant we’d learn to march. G.I beans
and G.I gravy gee I wish I know and anyway it was a hup, two, three, four, you had a good home
and you left your right, you wouldn’t go back if you could you’re wrong so [humming] If I die in
a combat zone, box me up and ship me home, sound off– One, two. Sound off– Three, four—
And then it was, if I die in a Russian front bury me with a Russian cunt, sound off– One, two.
Sound off– They didn’t sound like [unintelligible] to me and we saw films of the Russians in
World War II and we knew about that little Tommy gun, the little burp gun they had with a drum
and on a ventilated barrel and there was– Rifles, well I think that we were gearing up to go to
war with Russia at that time in ‘52, I didn’t think about it at the time but–
Interviewer: “Oh yeah.”

They were.

�Goodman, Donald
Interviewer: “That’s what they were training you for if the Soviets attacked.”

I think it must have been. An interesting thing, while I did graduate my oldest son was born the
day I was discharged and if she hadn’t come through with that they wouldn’t have let her in the
base hospital, I don’t know what we would have done but took her in and so she was– I was
getting processed out of the Army, she was over in the base hospital and I came back from
processing and I– Another Sergeant Jones let’s say, this was the boozer and “Oh Goodman your
wife had a baby.” Said “What’d she have?” “I don’t know, babies are babies.” What the hell, so I
scooted off to the hospital to see my son, my oldest and we stayed there, I think we just stayed
there a week, and then my mother came to– We were living in a 28 foot trailer at the time, it was
service, it was an Army trailer and they– I got– I managed to get one in January of ‘54, maybe it
was February, and so we lived there until June and then packed up and headed for– Back home
to Chicago Heights where I found my folks had sold their house and they were building another
one and we were planning– Three of us, were planning to stay there at their house so it was an
interesting time, right after that they– I know what I wanted to tell you, aside from doing– I
became a teacher. (41:27) At that time teachers, especially men teachers, were held in high
esteem. That’s not like today, today they just treat them like dirt but in those days– “In those–”
God that makes me sound old, in those days, in the 50s when I started and the 60s even into the
70s, if you saw a guy teaching in an elementary school or high school and he wasn’t real old, he
probably was a vet and he probably would not put up with a whole lot of crap from anybody.
There were guys who did and later on when Jack Brice and I wrote– Oh in 30 years later, 1990s
we were talking to the vets who had come in on the G.I bill from World War II, yeah it was cool,
anyway– Wow were they a nutty bunch, and they were so gutsy they– Well one group the school
they were in was that old Hackley building that looks like a castle and they had one teacher who–
The teachers didn’t know how to handle these guys either I mean holy mackerel, but you’ve got
these 17 year olds in with these guys who have been 50 bombing missions over Germany and
whatever else they’d been through, they didn’t know how to handle them and this one– They told
me about this one teacher in English, she hated– It was the second floor, she hated the pigeons
that gathered at the top of the window. So she had some kind of long pole that– I guess to open
and unlock the window, anyway she’d get up there and tap the window and chase them away so
they just– I forget what she– She had some other peculiar thing. So they got up there, second

�Goodman, Donald
floor, got out one window, crept along the windowsill, unscrewed the screws that, held that
window up, and then went back down and the next day when she went tap the whole window
went down and she about had a heart attack. They did worse than that, they decided they’re in
the middle of Muskegon, there was big talk they were gonna change– They were gonna move
community– It wasn’t even community college it was a junior college, they were gonna move it
out to where it is now over the banks of Four Mile Creek and a couple of them who were
apparently old engineers, Army engineers, “You know what, they don’t have a bridge there.”
“Nope, don’t have a bridge.” So a couple of them, I can imagine it took a few six packs to get
them into this, “Well bring them a bridge.” “Okay, where are we gonna–” “Well we’re not gonna
build one.” “Well no.” “Just find one, we’ll move it.”
Interviewer: “They stole the bridge?”

Okay, so that was– The bridge they picked was not– It was just a regular city street that had two
lanes, and it was not far from where the old farmer’s market Muskegon is now, I’ve driven over
that bridge. (44:50) So they got– They prepared ahead of time, they spent weeks squirting oil
WD-40 or whatever they had then on the bolts and planning so this was the big night they were
gonna– I bet they were well oiled then not only the bridge but then too, they had a flatbed truck,
they had a crane, and they were under there unscrewing and they heard the train come. So the
guy underneath figures if this is a steam engine he’s about to become barbequed, barbequed by
bridge. So he’s yelling “Take me up! Take me up!” And they’re down there playing the game
“What’s the password?” Finally they helped him up and decided, you know this isn’t the night to
move the bridge, so away they went and took the truck back to wherever it had been and took the
crane back wherever they got it, wherever they got the tools they took that back but as– I started
as a teacher in 1956 we were treated really well, they were– People were on our side and nobody
tried this crap that these teachers are undergoing now where you got a bunch of checklists, you
got somebody come in and decide what good teachers do and what good teaching is and these
are guys who couldn’t teach a puppy to poop on a paper and they’re running the schools.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so what grade were you teaching?”

�Goodman, Donald
Oh I taught sixth grade for 13 years and in a ghetto school, I never had less than 36 kids, their
average reading level was four but I didn’t have discipline problems, partly because they didn’t–
I never sent a kid to the principal, I didn’t have to, on the other hand they didn’t come in and tell
me what I could do and couldn’t do. I never had a– I never had a charge leveled against me and I
show people pictures of my last sixth grade class– Mind you these are all black kids so if you’re
wondering about that, there’s a picture of them when I take them to– On a field trip to Grand
Rapids Museum. So I had to do– Overnight I got the bus figured out, these kids are dressed up
really nice like it’s Sunday and they’re– And I was taking their picture and they don’t look like
they’re beat up or they don’t look like they– And they don’t look like they’re wild either, they’re
just kids and people look at the picture and say “My God.” But I had the one kid, I can’t make up
a name for her, her name is Theresa, anyways she was always a bit of a devil and got into things.
One time we were playing cage ball, I don’t know do you know what cage ball is? You do crab
running and you have this giant ball and you kick it with your feet, you can’t have shoes on, and
there’s this– It’s kind of like soccer if anybody makes a point it’s a miracle, and they’re kicking
it back and forth and there was the backstop for the basket, well they crank it up if you’re not
going to be using it because we use this gym for everything. (48:26) The way you crank it up
there is a cast iron crank, okay you’ve got this big box on the wall and that’s what you put that
thing into and turn it and it winds up cranking the thing up and down. Alright what do you do
with the cast iron thing? Custodians put it on top, fine so I was standing under it doing whatever
refereeing you can do in this melee and all a sudden wham! I feel this thing that all but knocked
me out and I could feel blood, I sat down and I could feel the blood up there but the kids are dead
silent and my God what and I gonna do here. So I gotta get somebody in here to take the class
and the principal was there so I did go down there and I said “You gotta take over the class.” She
said “What do you want me to do?” I said “Give them spelling, tell them to write their words
down ten times, whatever take them back to the room.” Because that’s all they had left for time,
so she did so I get after– And I went and did a dumb thing, I laid down, I mean it’s a wonder and
afterwards I got up, she dismissed the class and I got up to get these sheets of paper with their
names on them and this one Theresa, angel, she had filled up four pages with “I hope he doesn’t
die. I hope he doesn’t die.” Wow, I saw her after she left and from then on we had looks because
I knew how she felt, for all the hell she’d given me.

�Goodman, Donald
Interviewer: “That’s good.”
Years later, I’m trying to think how many years that would’ve been, maybe ten or 12, I’d gone
through the high school, I was with the college, I set up a program in the prison. I was always
doing something or other extra and I was– I had to go into the prison and I think give a test or
something, anyways I supervised reading, writing, math classes in the prison besides the– When
you get into the prison you gotta empty your pockets, put them in a locker and then you could
have this big key. Okay you had to stand in front of this iron barred gate slid open, sprang, you
stepped into a room– It wasn’t too different, a room about this size, and you stood there, the gate
slid behind you, clang, oh God what a creepy feeling that is cause you’re locked in there, and
then that one is supposed to slide open, sprang, and you go out and you could go– You’re free to
go into the prison then carry whatever you got with you, tests or whatever there. So I’d been
doing that a number of times and I got in there one time and the gate slid behind me, clang, I
paused, waited, and I’m a little claustrophobic anyway I don’t even like elevators, and the gate
didn’t open–
Interviewer: “Oh no.” (51:55)
And I “Oh my God.” And then I hear this cackling from up in the control booth and I recognize
her.
Interviewer: “It was her?”
I said “Theresa you devil!” And she said, I’ll never forget this, “Mr.Goodman I finally got you
where I want you.”
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful.”
I said “At least you’re on the right side of the bars.” She said “I am but you aren’t.” So we had a
nice talk there and she finally let me out to go in the prison and I never saw her again, but that
was so funny.

�Goodman, Donald

Interviewer: “That is really– It’s really nice getting to see a former student like that.”
Well I’ve seen– Oh I’ve had– There– Funny I was there the second year there and I was teaching
second grade and I ran into– I had one kid but I thought at that time– This is maybe my fourth
year teaching and I thought if I teach for 40 years I’ll never teach a smarter kid than that. I’ve
taught for 40 years and never did teach anybody smarter than that, I went to– Unfortunately I
went to his funeral about three years ago, he had gone on to become a lawyer, so had his sister
who was very very smart too, and I felt so good– He had a heart attack, he’d been busy with that
I don’t know what or how many things, I felt so good his mother remembered me cause I talked
to her then, but he was just one of those no matter– You just know this is the smartest person I’m
ever gonna know just how fast they pick things up and he was, that was a Lindberg school and he
was with one of the classes of 36, 37. My average was 36 and if he taught– If they had more than
38 they did their best to try to move somebody out into somebody else’s class and we didn’t have
that many classes and we had– Teachers did have real discipline problems, a lot of them did
there, there were a lot of– There were good teachers who flat out couldn’t teach, back then you
needed a steady hand, but there were also teachers who weren’t [unintelligible] (54:17) I had two
student teachers there and one was so good I said “I’ll recommend you for any place, even here.”
And they did teach there, the other one I said “You know you’ll be a good teacher but you can’t
handle this kind of stuff, so I’ll write you a good recommendation provided you promise me you
will not apply for this for at least five years.” And he said “Okay, that sounds good.” And he
turned out, I’ve heard later he was a good teacher in a different school.
Interviewer: “That’s good.”

Different system.
Interviewer: “So your Army training definitely helped you maintain discipline.”

Oh yes it did, what the Army training did was open me up to myself and like I say when people
say “Thank you for your service.” I think “No, I should thank the Army.” Because I didn’t learn

�Goodman, Donald
all that stuff by belonging to the autobahn club and I didn’t find me belonging to the autobahn
club. I was– I didn’t know I could organize things and I did and I was– When I was grievance
chairman they said “Will you be–” At the college this was “Would you volunteer for grievance
chairman?” I said “Only if I run things and I choose my grievances.” They said “You can’t do
that.” I said “Then forget it.” Then they came back and said “Let’s see if we can play your
game.” So I said “Alright what I’m looking for, the only grievance I’ll take right now is one that
involves big bucks and that when I look it over I’m pretty sure I can win it at arbitration.” They
said “We’ve never taken a grievance to arbitration.” I said “That’s what I do.” So I did have a
couple people come and say “You gotta take my grievance!” And I’d say “Nope, you just
became the grievance chairman, bye.” And then forget it, so I finally got 10,000 bucks out of a
grievance and it was– I was real sure I could take it to arbitration and we did and later on– And
yeah it went to arbitration, they paid. Later on I had good and bad, winners and losers in the
grievances but this one I have read– I learned to read real closely, that’s why I knew on that
prisoner chase that I could get away with this because of the faulty rating that they did. I won one
grievance based on one word in the table of contents and it was worth 3,000 bucks to a
psychology instructor because the board had said there is no– It was double overload, there’s no
such thing as double overload, you can’t file a grievance against something that doesn’t exist in
the contract. (57:14) They said “Go through the whole contract and see no place does it, use the
term double overload.” And I already knew what they was up to I said “Look at the table to
contents it says double overload page 33 that means on 33 whatever they say is double
overload.” And won this guy 3,000 bucks, he bought me two bottles of whiskey and I thought
that was kind of nice.
Interviewer: “That’s a good repayment, was it good whiskey though?”
You know I think it must have been I don’t remember, I can’t– I really liked my 40 years, I
really liked teaching sixth grade but I was– I got this one opportunity, they came along, Bill
Murry who was the assistant superintendent, see I’d been teaching sixth grade there for– I don’t–
Ten years maybe, knocking on the door– This is when Lyndon Johnson took over presidency and
he opened up– He poured money and we got bushel baskets of money and all of a sudden when
he had none before because we– It was a great society and the schools just all of a sudden we got

�Goodman, Donald
we got all kind of program we can do and so nine o’clock in the morning get a knock from the
assistant suit and he says “Don, we got money enough to set up a reading program in the high
school would you give it some thought?” I said “Sure Bob, yeah let me think about it.” He said
“Okay I’ll be back at 11 you tell me yes or no.” He was back at 11, I hadn’t had any time to talk
to my wife or anything, I said “Go.” He said “Okay, show up at the high school at like 3:30 on
Wednesday and talk to Al.” Who had already set up a reading program like that in the junior
high and so I went there and sat down to him, and we knew each other and he had these catalogs
in front of him and he said “There they are Don we got an– You got an hour and a half to spend
$4,000.” I said “I’ve never taught a high school student in my life I don’t know what kind of
stuff I ought to be–” He said “We gotta turn the order in now.” So I went through and I had never
even seen the room that I was supposed to be assigned, that’s how goofy it was under the great
society. All of a sudden bushels baskets of money in there “Spend it now.” And so we did, some
of it we spent well, some of we didn’t know what we were doing but it was a good program I set
up, and then I got the call from the college saying they are going to set up a reading, writing, and
math program, are you interested in being in on the ground floor of that? (1:00:10) I thought
“God yes, you bet I am.” I am tired because we had learned– I’ll tell you another thing, sort of
thing, I’m running– I’m rambling here.
Interviewer: “That’s okay.”

Anyway I had just got assigned to the high school and to set everything up and found out that
they locked the doors at noon time, and I went– I liked to go out for lunch, didn’t want to bring
sack all the time, I went to the principal said “Can I have a key to that one door?” He said “Gee
Don I don’t have any spare keys at all.” He said “Can’t you just coordinate your coming and
going with some other teacher?” So I was talking and complaining, pissing and moaning at one
of my classes, I had a class of like eight, and one of my students “Mr.Goodman you want a key
to that door?” I said “Yeah.” He said “Give me 50 cents.” I gave him 50 cents the next day I had
a key that opened every door in that high school including the principal’s office. This is the
ghetto, this is the way you do things, my Army training–
Interviewer: “So I’m gonna go ahead and jump us back a little bit.”

�Goodman, Donald

Sure, jump back.
Interviewer: “Back to the Army, you mentioned working or at least being there when
integration started happening and African Americans started melding into units. Was
there a lot of tension or was it just–”

No, no it went a whole lot smoother than you might have thought, there were a few guys from
the south who couldn’t get by but our battalion commander– Name was Green, Major Green,
was black and we had– And we made– Oh when I went in my first platoon sergeant who was–
Everybody was working above rank, whose corporal, Corporal Summers, and I remember him
big, tall dude and I was kind of surprised, I don’t know why I thought “Fine.” No, we didn’t
have– And in fact two of my good friends in the Army– This is advice for anybody that’s gonna
be stationed anyplace, were cooks and one was– One’s name was slaughter, he was– I thought
“Okay.”
Interviewer: “It’s a fitting name.” (1:02:49)
The other one was Makita and they were– Yeah they were drinking buddies but “Wanna grab a
steak?” It’s after the movies, “Sure.” I mean they open up the mess hall, gotta start the fire with
butter and coals– All our stills were coal, and then get out the steaks and fry them in butter and I
remember the one time I had my own room in the– When I was permanent party in the barracks
and it’s like six o’clock in the morning and somebody knocks on my door and I didn’t usually
show up orderly room until seven. Knock on the door, “Yeah?” Open the door there’s three
trainees, each one had a tray full of– They had oatmeal, they had cold cereal, they had juice, they
had pancakes, they had SOS, they had– You name it and I thought “Yeah, one of the cooks is up
for a promotion and they want me to write because I wrote all the recommendations for
promotion.” I never had any turned down and that was actually the first time I had experience
with creative fiction, in fact it bordered on fantasy for some of those but they all got promoted
when I wrote it.

�Goodman, Donald
Interviewer: “Hey gotta be good at what you do right?”

There they were–
Interviewer: “So they were just bribing you with food?”
That’s it, reminding me.
Interviewer: “Just a friendly reminder.”
No that was Slaughter, he was– Slaughter, Makita and I hung out a lot together, I’d never had a
black friend my God, and I remember one time I was so surprised, we were out someplace or
other and said “How about we go to the movies?” And he said “They don’t want me in that
movie” And I said “What?” That was the first time I’d ever heard– This was Missouri, he said
“They won’t let me in there.” Okay, we’re not going to the movies then but it was still–
Segregation was still hot and heavy in the 1950’s down south, not in the Army, no. (1:05:04)
Interviewer: “That’s good.”

It was, and it was absolutely– They integrated– Yeah it was only the trainees, a few trainees from
someplace or other who started this crap “Well I’m not gonna–”
Interviewer: “One interesting thing that I just thought of, did you ever work with any
Japanese or German troops?”

No.
Interviewer: “When you were in training?”

Nope, never did anything like that but one time I remember I was at my desk and these people
came in and they had brownish uniforms and stars, like two or three stars like holy cross mother

�Goodman, Donald
I’ve never seen a– So I jumped up and the American who was with them said they were from
Thailand and they were lieutenants something or other and I said “Oh, okay then.” They pass out
thinking “My God, here’s two or three generals coming.” No never worked with– We had no
foreign troops, we had 250 brand new troops come in as civilians and we taught them to do shoot
and salute and polish a boot, that’s what– And they were gone and they could go– They’ll find
out after they left us, go into engineering basic, I liked engineering– I liked explosives, you show
me a bridge, you show me a steel girder bridge today and I’ll tell you exactly where to place the
charges and what size they ought to be, how much TNT– I don’t know if we use TNT anymore,
what to do but I still have that mind, the formula– If anybody’s checking, is still P=⅜ A and
nobody knows what that means except old timers.
Interviewer: “Well now I know.”
It means pounds of TNT, the number of pounds TNT time ⅜ of the the area, the surface area, and
most I beams– That’s for I beams, you get the web and the– Where’d it go? Web in the
something else, I forget what it is. (1:07:20) Anyway you measured and then you multiply that
times ⅜ and that tells you how much TNT–
Interviewer: “Interesting.”
You need to cut that, so I never got to blow a bridge but I still know how, that’s a lot of stuff.
Interviewer: “Hey at least you learned.”
Do you wanna know anything else? Because I’ve just been running my–
Interviewer: “I guess we can start moving towards the end of it. We’ve already touched a
lot on your life after the military and how it really set you up for success.”

Absolutely.

�Goodman, Donald
Interviewer: “Did you keep in touch with anybody from the Army?”

My first, first sergeant yes and they moved to Florida– He got out before I did of course, and he
went to Florida and we went down there to visit him, the wives did keep in touch by way of
Christmas cards and he was a twin and they had– He and his twin had twin cars, one was a
Chrysler and the other was a DeSoto, I forget what year they were but I remember those two
cars. They had fluid drive which meant you could shift or you didn’t have to on the car, I don’t
know how many years they actually did that but we kept track of John Nelson until a few years
back and then kind of faded away. We went down to them to visit them, I’m not coming through,
someplace down in Florida, he was an engineer, he knew– Oh we went to school together, after
the Army he has signed up to go to the University of Illinois Champaign and that’s where I
finished up my thing in education and he finished– He did his in engineering and so yeah I went
to– When we were going to Champaign we had the one child Brian and I was working, full time
student I had one job at the film library and had another working for ptomaine Tom, what he
did– Isn’t that a great name, wouldn’t you buy from him? (1:09:40) He hired a bunch of us and
we went around to fraternity and sorority houses, we had a route we took our own– We carried a
big pot– Excuse me, of hot dogs, boiled hot dogs, and we– Excuse me, milk cartons, we had little
pies, we had sandwiches, and we had the original– Well I always said we had the original
Subway sandwiches but we didn’t call them that, we called them big mothers. So– And we
always said that, they were made on a big loaf, you know Subway loafs big mother. Yeah it was
so funny to go into a sorority house and these sweet little girls go “I want one of those big
mothers!” And the joke we had with that was that– His name was Bill Sleicher, I still remember
his name, anyway that Bill had the sharpest meat cutter in the world and we advertised this thing
has three kinds of meat and two kinds of cheese on it, which it did but among ourselves we said
“Yeah, three kinds of meat, two kinds of cheese, and you can read a newspaper through all five
layers.” Which, yeah you don’t know how thin meat bologna and cheese can get sliced till you
had a big mother.
Interviewer: “That’s funny, so it was mostly just bread?”

�Goodman, Donald
It was, yeah just what it was, you’re gonna waste a lot of money on stuff, and I remember– I
don’t know how much that cost but I remember a braunschweiger was 40 cents, 40 cent
sandwich for a braunschweiger and we had a number of different kinds of sandwiches. God that
thing was heavy, that was a gut buster but in those days I was in good shape, came out of the
Army.
Interviewer: “Yeah you were ready to go, so–”

Go ahead.
Interviewer: “Would you do it all over again?”
Well not that I’m 87 years old now I think.
Interviewer: “If you could–” (1:11:42)
Am I sorry? Oh hell no, but I didn’t get hurt, there was no time when I was close to getting hurt
and it didn’t screw up my mind in anyway, I learned to accept authority then but I learned to
deliver authority too and I learned to assign– Assume authority, it was no question “Thank you
for your service.” Thank you for your Army.
Interviewer: “Well now I have a good response for when people tell me thank you for my
service I can be thank you for your Navy, they’re paying for my college.”

Yeah paid for– Finished up mine too yeah. Anything else comes to mind? Jesus, I've been
talking for two hours.
Interviewer: “Has it been two hours?”
I don’t know, how long?

�Goodman, Donald
Interviewer: “I don’t think it’s been quite two hours.”

Been a long time.
Interviewer: “Unless you have any other interesting stories you’d like to tell us about your
time in the military or something to do with afterwards.”
No I can’t– Well I can’t think of anything else, I’m sure I’ll get out in the car and of course I
will, a whole bunch of stuff but–
Interviewer: “We could always do another interview if it comes to that. So I guess we’ll
wrap it up here.”

Fair enough.
Interviewer: “Sounds good.”

Thank you.

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                <text>Donald Goodman was born on January 12, 1932, in Chicago Heights, Illinois. Goodman graduated high school in 1949 and went on to attend the University of Illinois Chicago, which at the time had a campus at Navy Pier, for three years. In 1950, he rejected his admission into the Air Force and enlisted into the Army due to the shorter tours of duty offered by the latter service branch. For Basic Training, he was sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, for three years where he participated in rigorous practice drills of combat scenarios which he described as overly chaotic and nerve racking. He also recalled how the racial integration of the Armed Forces was difficult for some recruits to mentally overcome and how the Army was subtly preparing its recruits, mentally, for a potential war with the Soviet Union. After Basic, Goodman was promoted to Corporal and became a Company Clerk. At one point, Goodman was assigned to lead a ‘Prison Chase’ job with two other soldiers to retrieve five prisoners who were being held on charges of going AWOL near Chicago. He and his two men enjoyed a night in Chicago before retrieving and delivering the Army prisoners to Fort Sheridan the next day. During his service on the base, he lived with his wife in an Army trailer and his son was also born in the base’s hospital. In June of 1954, Goodman was discharged from the Army and moved his new family back to Chicago Heights where he became a middle school teacher in 1956 and later a high school teacher. During President Johnson’s Great Society initiative, his school district received large sums of money from the federal government which he used to help establish a reading, writing, and math program at a local college. Reflecting upon his service in the Army, Goodman believed his military training, in both recognizing and assuming authority, allowed him to control his classes by maintaining discipline. He owed a great amount of gratitude to the Army for helping him grow mentally into the ambitious person he is today. Goodman also kept in touch with one of his old Sergeants, was ultimately glad he enlisted into the Army, and was grateful he was never injured during his time in service.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Harrison Goodspeed
(50:14)
(00:30) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
•

Harrison was born in 1924 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and attended East Grand Rapids
Elementary
He attended high school in Massachusetts and graduated in 1942
He began paying more attention to the news after Pearl Harbor
At the time, most people had never even heard of Pearl Harbor
Harrison attended college at Dartmouth for one semester and then he enlisted
He was pretty sure he would be drafted anyway, and if he enlisted then he might be able
to have a say in his position

(2:30) Enlistment
•
•
•
•

Harrison enlisted because he did not want to have to join the infantry, but he is glad now
that they put him in the infantry because he was able to see the war first hand
After enlisting he went to Fort Custer in Battle Creek and was then sent to Arkansas for
basic training
He went to Colorado for desert training and it was very rough
They were forced to go through combat conditions

(4:20) Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP)
•

This was like going back to college; it was at the University of South Dakota where they
were trained in engineering, but the Army then decided that they had too many engineers

(5:10) Officer Candidate School (OCS)
•
•
•
•
•

Harrison went to Fort Benning in Georgia and graduated as a second lieutenant
He got married in Grand Rapids and then shipped overseas
Harrison received the best training for the infantry OCS
Most of the men who trained him had been in combat in World War One
He trained for only sixty days because things were getting really bad in Europe

(10:00) Shipped Overseas January 1st, 1944
•

They were constantly threatened by U-boats so they had to zig zag along the course and
that took much longer than the normal trip

�•

They traveled in a convoy, and they men were to serve as replacements when they arrived
in Europe

(12:00) Europe
•
•
•
•

They embarked in France and joined up with their company in Luxemburg right after the
Battle of the Bulge
There only 12 men left of the 180 who had fought and Harrison was one of the
replacements
When the company had reached 180 men again, they headed East
He went through his first combat experience in only one week

(16:30) The Machine Gunner
•
•
•

He shot at them near a Catholic Church and his Para-trooper friend was badly wounded
and had to ship back to the US
The mortar crew brought down the machine gunner and then some other men surrendered
Each battalion is made up of four companies, and each company is made up of four
platoons

(20:45) Battle in a Small German Town
•
•
•
•
•
•

They were traveling down a hill and were surrounded by craters in the ground from
explosions
Rifles started shooting at them and they started running down the hill
They then went into the building where the sniper was shooting from
They found some fresh poured champagne inside and some warm pork chops, which they
consumed before proceeding
Then they found a lot of petrified women and children in the basement
There had been German propaganda that stated American men were on drugs and would
rape German women

(22:55) The German Army
•
•
•

They constantly found themselves outnumbered, in which cases they would surrender;
Harrison said that they were “pretty shabby.”
He also stated that the SS were the real “die-hards”
Germans had shot at the platoons ahead of them while they were crossing the Rhine

(27:20) German Bunkers
• The Germans had just left their bunkers and his crew found a German pistol, a P-38

�• Franklin Roosevelt’s secretary was a veteran of the 88th Infantry Division during World
War One and he had come to visit Harrison’s crew
• He asked if he could give the gun to the president as a souvenir and it is still on display at
Hyde Park
(30:00) German Civilians
•
•
•
•
•

The company commander was going back home and so Harrison took his place
His job was to contact the Germans as they moved along to see if they would surrender
They worked with German Mayors and sometimes needed interpreters
They had occupied Bavaria and spent a whole summer there
They headed towards Berlin when the German army was starting to fall apart, but then
the Russians said they could take care of Berlin, so they headed South towards the
Austrian Alps

(32:40)The Battle that Earned Harrison a Silver Star
•
•
•
•
•

He saw an American tank explode and found that six Germans were using anti-tank
weapons
He threw a grenade in the fox hole that they were hiding out in
They had been pointing a machine gun at him, but they all were dead after the grenade
They did not come across many German tanks, most likely because they were starting to
run out of petroleum
In Austria there were 200,000 Germans hiding in the mountains waiting to attack, but
they eventually surrendered

(36:40) The End of the War
•
•
•
•

No one knew about all the concentration camps in Germany until the war came to an end
During the last months of the war, Harrison’s crew was not taking very many losses and
morale was excellent
Many of the men in his platoon were from the East coast and were about 18-22 years old
They went to France and then took a boat back to the US

(40:25) Bavaria
•
•
•

While in Bavaria, they men continued to train because they thought they might be
shipped out to the Pacific
They dug a trench to set up a rifle range
The men did not really need any more training, but Harrison had to keep them busy

(43:00) The Scrapbook

�•

His daughter put it together for him and it contains many letters he wrote to his father and
some pictures

(45:50) Back in the US
•
•
•
•
•
 

Harrison arrived in New Jersey on December 12th and then went to Indiana
His wife met him there and they finally went home
He took some classes in Michigan at Grand Valley and then went to the University of
Michigan
He got a message in the mail telling him that he would have to serve in the Korean War,
but he was able to get out of it because he had three dependents
He continued to study engineering at the University of Michigan

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
World War II
Alexander Gorashko
Length of Interview (02:06:27)
Background
Born in Saginaw, Michigan; 1st generation American, son of Russian immigrants
Father owned a grocery store
Born in1924
Father eventually sold the store and became a commercial fisherman near Saginaw Bay;
Gorashko started school there
Chevrolet Foundry, moved to Saginaw
Went into trade school in Saginaw, only went up to the 11th grade; 1942
Remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor on the car radio after church
Recalls hearing about Hitler, but that was all he knew at that time
Had several jobs after school
Remembers his manager telling him he wouldn’t be drafted, found it doubtful (was 18 years old)
Wanted to work for the telephone company and kept going there to see if there were any
openings
January 1943, was employed at the telephone company
Training and Service (00:03:36)
Drafted two months later


Went to Detroit to be examined



Sworn in on March 27, 1943



Given one week to settle affairs



Michigan Central Depot, he and 200 other men were sent to Fort Custer by train

�Inclined to work with electricity and wires (00:04:40)
Wanted to be a radio operator on a plane
Sent to Atlantic City, New Jersey for basic training; Army Air Corps.
Took him about two days to get there by train


Went in a tunnel under the Detroit River into Canada, then into Pennsylvania where
Gorashko saw a lot of electric trains, then to Atlantic City

Atlantic City is known for being a tourist area, so the government converted all the hotels to
barracks for all the men in training


Rooms were bare, cement floors, cots



Five or six men to a room



Had to close the drapes for blackout conditions

Training included mostly marching (drill), calisthenics, airplane recognition, first aid, “over-thehill” (00:07:14)
Had a drill master who wasn’t too strict
Training took about one month
A group went by several trains to Scott Field, Illinois for Radio School
Had to do KP (Kitchen Police) for a week
Had code class in the morning, radio mechanics in the afternoon


As he got more proficient, the speed of the code went higher



Gorashko wasn’t able to go over 16 words a minute



Wasn’t going to be a radio operator



Kept attending classes anyway until his group graduated

Had Saturdays off, went to St. Louis, Missouri; a ship called “The Admiral” would patrol up
and down the river to monitor the men
Gorashko himself didn’t drink, but always found something to do

�Gunnery School (00:11:08)
Continued with his graduating class and wound up at Gunnery School in Harlingen, Texas
Enjoyed gunnery school
Taught how to take a machine gun apart and back together; then learned how to do that
blindfolded (00:11:40)
Also had simulations (a company in Detroit that made the screens), this was how they were
scored
Another test: given single shot guns, stood on a platform on the back of a truck (while moving)
where they shot clay pigeons that were being launched from different directions


Had never used a gun before, training reflexes; was easy for him

Later, went to a camp that had a turret set up and would use the turret to shoot a clay pigeons
being shot out of towers, given only a single shot


This was a little more difficult for Gorashko

Then, moved to a base that used planes to pull out a target sleeve, Gorashko and the other
trainees would fly along on another plane (00:13:37)


Each men had different colored bullets, so several could be tested on the same target



Almost didn’t become a gunner because his seat belt wouldn’t fasten, a rule that must be
strictly followed



Had to hold on to both ends of the belt while taking off so he wouldn’t fall out



Finally got it fastened as the plane leveled out



The sleeve had already passed but Gorashko shot away



When they landed, he was able to blurt out his reason for the delay; had 21 rounds left
and was passed

Also flew in a B-24 and operated a turret at all positions, then graduated (00:15:50)


1944, finished training



End of winter, March

�Meeting the Crew (00:16:30)
Had a “delayein-route,” went to Lincoln, Nebraska


Here he met his crew, didn’t meet them until the last minute

Officers went on one train and the rest got on another, kept separate
Went to Tucson, Arizona; took training as a crew in B-24’s; was a Tail-gunner
Smaller men were usually Ball-gunners (00:17:25)


The area for the Ball-gunner is five feet in diameter with two machine guns and a small
window to look out of



Very self-contained, has to depend upon everyone else to get out



Usually in there for five to six hours

Tail-gunner


Very cramped area, had to be forced in because his shoulders were very broad



Turret overseas were much larger and wider, also had doors

Didn’t get a chance to really associate with his crew in Nebraska (00:19:15)
The crew flew together for a month and a half before they were sent overseas
Flew all over the country, western part
Flew a lot of night missions, not enough planes to fly during the day
Pilot from Lanark, Illinois, very nice (00:20:00)
Co-pilot from Texas; wanted to be a fighter pilot
Bombardier, heavy-set Irishman from Connecticut, a smartass because he picked on Gorashko
Navigator, a Jewish fellow from New York
The Bombardier would always call Gorashko “Feets” because he has a size 12 shoe
An officer also called him “Feets” which he thought was out of line

�The Nose-gunner was from Connecticut, Edwin Doctor, nice guy, a joker
Engineer and Top-gunner from Georgia, was a drinker, knew his job though
Radio Operator was a Waist-gunner from Indiana, played the harmonica, nice guy


When over in Italy he and Gorashko went sailing together



Was responsible for the Ball-gunner

The other Waist-gunner was responsible for Gorashko, Charlie Overton


When flying over an area where flak is being used, they must wear a special armor



Gorashko could not get the armor on and get into the turret because it was clipped
together



Charlie Overton would bring him his “flak suit” once he got into the turret and help him
hold it and clip it together



Had armor over the chest and armor over the abdomen



Also wore a heated suit: suit, booties, and gloves; Gorashko called it a “Bunny suit”



Wore the armor over this



Also wore an inflatable Mae West; everyone had to

Went to Topeka, Kansas where they received all of the clothing they would need (00:25:05)


Gunners received a helmet with a visor, each were different colors; came in a kit



Issued some aviation sunglasses and .45 pistol



Boots, heavy clothing, and a heated flight suit



Received a bag about 2 feet long to keep all of their clothing

Going Overseas (00:26:25)
Some crews were given an airplane to fly overseas: usually flew to Brazil then to North Africa
Gorashko’s crew was taken by train to Newport, Virginia, near Norfolk
There for a few days until they could get on a ship, “Santa Rosa”; a passenger ship
Had a couple thousand people on it

�Sailed in a convoy
Really enjoyed the trip across, went on deck often to read a book; good weather and no U-boat
scares (00:27:35)
Landed at Naples, Italy (00:28:08)
Put on a trolley that was underground then went above ground into the northern suburbs of
Naples
Put in a building that Mussolini had built for underprivileged children; no facilities, slept on the
floor with their blankets
Waited to be deployed
Had a chance to go to Pompeii (00:29:15)
There wasn’t much battle damage in downtown Naples
Met an Italian girl there (00:29:50)
Got on a train and went through the southern part of Italy, on it for two days (00:31:20)
Got out on the east side of Italy and stopped in an open field with B-24 Bombers
Weren’t given parachutes, flew only 500 ft. off the ground, so they wouldn’t have helped much
anyway
Landed on an airfield, a part of the 736th Squadron, 454th Bomb Group (00:32:35)
Could see the town’s church from the airfield, town of Cerignola, a part of the Foggia complex
Didn’t take long before he was sent on a mission, 3 or 4 days afterward (00:33:15)
First Mission (00:33:35)
Had terrible living conditions


Five or six men in a tent



No electricity



No bathing facilities, took sponge baths



Used an ammunition box to heat water



Had a water trailer

�The layout of the camp was a horseshoe shape; at one end, had a dayroom where a bulletin had
missions posted on it (very rarely)
Didn’t usually know when they were to have missions, kept in the dark usually
Had to get early morning reports (4:30 AM), then go to the mess hall; didn’t eat as a group
Then got on a truck for the 454th Bomb Group where they gathered at a Quonset hut containing a
covered map which the officer would pull off when debriefing began
Two colored threads, one red and another black, on the map


Red was the main route, black represented the alternate route

Usually didn’t post missions on bulletin boards because spies or civilians could see them
The morale was pretty good, miserable in the morning and happy when coming back alive
(00:36:05)
When overseas, had a few talks about what to do when captured; had been told the losses of
planes were about 5%


Actually means 50% for 50 missions, good chance they wouldn’t coming back (captured
or killed)



Expected to fly 50 missions; not told that the odds were 50%

First mission was Budapest, supposed to bomb a truck factory, actually an armaments factory
(00:37:30)


During debriefings, they were never told what the actual target was, so if they got
captured, they could confess to bombing something else entirely

Process (00:38:15)
Enlisted men are first to the plane; officer’s men in groups are debriefed with more detail;
Gorashko and the gunners usually waited on the side
Then a truck comes by to give everyone K-rations and juice
When the pilots show up, they do an inspection of the plane
Just when they are ready to take off, the engineer stands outside the wing with a fire
extinguisher (everyone else is off to the side)
He walks from one wing to the other until all engines are working

�They go through a checklist and then Gorashko and the other men get on board
Four men in the back six men in the front
The men in the back have their backs against the bomb bay bulkhead, so they have a little
protection if they crash
They then release the brakes and the plane begins to slowly move, and then speed up along
the runway


Runways were actually mats, Marsden Mats

Begins to feel some apprehension as they are 2/3 down the runway before they leave the
ground; fence is ten feet below as they pass (also had a cemetery that they passed)
During the invasion [southern France], took off at night, saw an explosion at the end
of the runway (00:41:40)
Two planes had run into each other, a total of 20 men
First Mission, cont. (00:42:15)
When flying to Budapest, had to be in formation at all times
When over the flak area, become a little more scattered
This was one of the scariest things that Gorashko had ever experienced, no place to hide
An 88 will explode a ways behind, and they can’t help but think, “Is the next going to be a little
farther ahead, or what?”
After his first mission, Gorashko didn’t want to go up again
On the first mission, went with another crew (pilot and tail-gunner were wither another crew)
When they dropped the bombs on their target, the plane moved at a dangerous angle, lifting
Gorashko off his seat; he was worried that the pilot flying had little control
“Chaff,” like tinsel; cut to a certain length (depending on the frequency) and used to scramble
radio frequency
The other gunners would throw out the chaff as fast as they could, the sky filled with them; blurs
the enemy’s radar, who would have to resort to optical
Didn’t see any German aircrafts, just the flak
Fighters usually flew above them, wasn’t sure if they were there on that particular mission

�After the mission, they were loaded on to trucks and driven to the Interrogation Office and were
asked questions about what they saw (00:45:33)
Had a Red Cross girl handing out coffee and donuts; another line for whiskey, Gorashko would
usually give his shot to the engineer
Afterwards, could go back to their quarters
Bucharest and Blechhammer (00:46:20)
His next mission was about one day later at an oil refinery in Bucharest, Romania; dubious about
going up but did his duty
Charlie, who helped him with putting on his flak suit, had forgotten to give Gorashko his
helmet (00:46:50)
Reluctantly, Charlie went to give him his steel helmet; didn’t want to leave his position
because he was standing upon armor that gave him protection from flak
Just as he got his helmet on, Gorashko heard a “zing” and a piece of flak had fallen
through the top right above his head and bounced off his helmet
The amount of flak was the same as in Budapest (00:48:15)
Gorashko was what they called the “Tail-end Charlie,” always the newest of the crew (00:48:30)
First to be shot at, couldn’t see much outside the plane, so didn’t often see others get shot down
Had 14 missions before being shot down, had three doubles (00:49:10)


Every mission to Germany counted as two missions

Furthest flight, Blechammer near the Auschwitz Camp, in Poland near the German border
Target: a petrochemical plant (this was near the point the Air force had bombed most of the fuel
refineries in Romania, so this was one of the remaining plants for fuel)
The target was so far that when they got back, they’d only 15 gallons in each tank; this is
equivalent to two or three minutes of flight
Flew the same mission again and didn’t have enough fuel to get back; tried to fly to an
island called Vis (in Yugoslavia) that was controlled by the British (00:50:44)

�Southern France Invasion (00:51:00)
Flew in support for the landing in Southern France (August ’44); had to practice night flying
with the pilot, co-pilot, and navigator
On the morning of the Invasion, as they flew, they were joined by other groups; airplanes as far
as the eye could see
Had to drop bombs at 7:30 AM on a particular beach; couldn’t find their own planes, followed
those in front of them
Arrived at their destination 5 minutes late and couldn’t drop their bombs because they could hit
their own men; flew back to Italy to drop the bombs in the Adriatic Sea (couldn’t land with
them)
When flying over that sea, could see miles and miles of enemy ships
Hadn’t known what was happening on the beaches
Prior to the Southern France Invasion, flew several missions targeting bridges (00:53:15)
Bombed at 9000 feet; very low, anti-aircraft could shoot them out of the sky
On one mission, felt the plane suddenly rise up as the bombs were dropped, wasn’t near
the targeted bridge
Hit an intersection of houses (this was in France); Gorashko isn’t sure what happened,
but after interrogation, heard nothing else of it
Didn’t turn back though, just went back with the rest
Didn’t ever see any German aircraft during his missions, it was a problem (00:55:15)
Hour after hour of scanning the skies, would sometimes daydream because it couldn’t be helped
Gorashko was always concerned about an enemy firing from the direction of the sun; he had a
piece of visor (made of very dark material) so that he could hold it up to the sun
At the airfield in the beginning of July, shot down August 22 (month and a half) (00:56:25)

�Entertainment (00:56:35)
Life at the airfield was boring; for entertainment, they had a movie every other night


No electric lights, so would make a bonfire and roast potatoes



One waist-gunner would play the mouth-organ



One instance they swam in the Adriatic, also went into town a few times



Went to a mountain-top village, some men wanted to drink at a cantina



Remembers swimming with a ground troop fellow in a drainage ditch, suddenly a
bunch of sheep manure had come floating down; had to use the showers the
ground troops used (which they weren’t happy about)

Blechhammer: Enemy from 12o’clock (00:58:25)
When it was announced the mission was Blechhammer, everyone gave a groan


Told that they may have to make a landing on the island of Vis

At the target, saw a plane on fire and spiraling downward; saw a bunch of parachutes
Some of the others saw planes go down, too; one of the rougher missions
On the way back (45 minutes after the target) the engineer checked the sight-gages; came to the
conclusion that they wouldn’t make it back to Italy and started for Vis
After a while, the pilot was on the intercom telling the men to be on alert as another group had
been hit
Half hour later, the engineer announced a plane was coming from 12o’clock (00:59:48)
It flew under Gorashko’s group’s formation
Made a turn and was vulnerable, but turned at an angle that the body armor was towards
Gorashko’s group
He could see the tracers bouncing of the plane; then Gorashko shot, but the plane was a ways
beyond already
Shot with short bursts, only one shot
15 or 20 minutes later heard explosions going on around their plane; hadn’t heard anyone call out
an airplane
At that time, turned his head and saw their plane was on fire

�Had no time to tell anyone and got out, lost his intercom connections
By the time he got out, the whole area was on fire; his oxygen tank had caught fire, as well
The two waist-gunners already had their parachutes
They headed into the bomb bay to let the others know about the fire
Heard explosions just as they were standing under the fuel tanks, Gorashko thought it was his
ammunition going off in the tail-end
Was actually being attacked by another plane, a fighter
As the bombardier hit the lever for the bomb bay doors, the plane went into a roll
Fell off the ten inch catwalk and got caught on something; going down in a dive
Parachute harness caught from behind
It then took another little roll and freed him; he then floated out as the plane fell
No time to think, just pulled the handle for the chest chute and nothing happened
Instinctively pulled out the pilot chute, which pulled the main chute out
Was dropping at such a rapid rate that there was a jerk, “stop,” that caused him to pass out
Seconds later, woke up; his lines were all tangled and was missing a boot
Trying to figure what to do; the lines of his chute were still unwinding, so he was spinning
downward
Saw an airplane burning below, another plane
Felt a sense of euphoria as he realized that after all this, he was still alive
It didn’t last long
Could hear bullets going by, thought it was bullets from the plane that was burning below; was
actually being shot at from the ground
Came down in a tree and hung there for a moment and tried to decide what to do next
Saw movement below and then a Hungarian soldier came forward, aimed, and shot at him

�Gorashko surrendered (01:07:00)
Was shaking as he tried to get down from the tree
Was surrounded by people, got undressed and they checked to see if he had a radio
Pulled off his wings and soldier hit him in the back with the butt of a rifle knocking him down
Got dressed, but then a German Sergeant came over and made him undress again (in front of all
women, children, and Hungarian soldiers)
Then got dressed again and was told to go to a certain spot, there was a yellow bottle on the
ground
Gorashko picked it up, everyone backed away; it was oxygen, and he told them what it was (to
which they all laughed)
After they examined him, they marched Gorashko to a place where he would be kept captive
Marched passed some houses (one child tried to give him an apple, but his arms were full), it was
a really hot afternoon
Went up to a house to rest, was given bread and water, they were very kind
A quarter of a mile later came to a university where he was put in a room
Charlie, one of Gorashko’s buddies, showed up here; doesn’t think anyone else in his plane got
out though
Prison Camp (01:11:13)
Seven or eight other men were captured, as well
Slept on boards lain across sawhorses
The next day, fed soup with potatoes peelings and a little piece of bread
Was told they were being taken by train to Budapest by an English-speaking Hungarian soldier
A tall civilian was standing next to the soldier and asked him something; the Hungarian soldier
then asked if there were any Jews among the prisoners
No one said anything, one fellow looked Jewish, but nothing came of it; Gorashko is pretty sure
that civilian was actually a Gestapo
Marched down the road down the road to the station, were being spit at and slandered by
civilians as they went

�Put in a boxcar with young Hungarian soldiers with machine guns who eager to fight; was really
uncomfortable and Gorashko couldn’t wait for dark so he wouldn’t have to see them staring
Followed Lake Balaton to Budapest, arrived at 12:30 or 1:00 AM, taken to the city jail by
ambulance
Spent the night there with a Lieutenant, never spoke a word, too tired; slept on mats upon the
floor
The next day, taken to the prison and put in solitary confinement for five days (01:15:00)
Was interrogated to which he gave vague answers, said he didn’t know anything
The interrogator then pulled out a book that contained his bomb group number
Was taken back to his cell, asked for a nurse because he had a burn on the right side of his face
and right hand
A day later, put in a room filled with bread
There for another five days, taken to a train station and guarded by two pilots on rest-leave
Got very cold, had only their summer clothes on
Taken out of Budapest, stopped at one place where they saw a huge Ferris wheel (Vienna); taken
from there and to the north
It got so cold that they had to huddle to keep warm
After a couple days, stopped during the night and slept until morning, awoken by a German
sergeant from the prison camp
Made to push the railroad car off the track
Walked 20 minutes through the woods to the prison
Examined very thoroughly, had their pictures and fingerprints taken
The barracks were all filled, so they were taken to little buildings called “dog houses,” only
10x10 feet with eight men
No electricity or facilities, had to go outside the door


Gorashko had to go one night, and a guard dog was coming around the corner, he made
sure to get back into the building as fast as possible

�There were about 2,000 men in each compound, so about 10,000 men at this camp (01:19:55)
They built another compound and it took a whole day to move Gorashko and the other prisoners
Given nothing to eat that day
No beds or facilities besides a stove; had to make their own mats
Lights went out at 10 PM every night
Daily Routine (01:21:17)
A lot of the men in the prison were anxious to know how the war was going
The morning, given hot water; then stand out to be counted
At noon given a stew or potatoes, very small portion (Gorashko ate out of a can)
The next meal was either the stew or potatoes, as well, with a 1/7 piece of bread; daily
ration
Got Red Cross parcels; were supposed to get one per man per week; only got a ¼ or this
so they would split it


One pound can of Klim (milk spelled backwards), two D-bars, corned beef, sugar,
coffee (one can), K-2 Crackers, cigarettes (four packs, a form of money)



Didn’t trade with the Guard Officers, very strict



“Big Soup”



Some men actually knew a few of the Officers, they had lived in Saginaw but had
gone back to Germany



“Green Hornet”

Usually played cards provided by the Red Cross, also had a library with books donated
by the International YMCA (would sit around and discuss the book being read)
(01:25:25)
Gorashko’s first book was, “Chemistry for Nurses”
Not much trading went on (01:26:40)
Got a job as a bread cutter

�Had a compound leader; each room elected a leader (01:28:00)
Assigned details (get water, clean the room, peeling potatoes, etc.)
Had 20 men in the room, would rotate the jobs


When peeling potatoes, would have to do it outside, so if it was cold out,
everyone would help out



Used butter knives

The International YMCA had brought in some instruments, they had a show; a couple
days after the show, one of the comedians came in with a piece of paper with the news
(01:29:45)
 Went from room to room
 Heard about the Battle of the Bulge
Also given photographs by the YMCA, one actually had a radio built into it
March (01:31:10)
Wasn’t much change in mood or morale as the Russians got closer, the prisoners hoped they
would be liberated by them
December, Russians made a big drive into Germany from Silesia, progressing towards
Pomerania, where the prison camp was
Gorashko’s room leader told them to treat the Germans well when the Russians come because
the Russian wouldn’t
Could hear gunfire and canon fire, heard nothing the next day
The Commandant came in to tell them that they were ordered to evacuate, one day to get ready
7:30AM must begin marching, no transportation or food, February 6, 1945
Very cold, marched out the gate and handed one Red Cross parcel per man
Gorashko’s group came out last, were told to take two because they had too many left
Marched through the woods; Gorashko had to eat most of his extra parcel (in 2 or 3 days)
because carrying it was becoming too cumbersome
Stopped at night at two barns, 500 men to a barn; only just enough room to sit

�A fellow in the hayloft had a guitar and began playing for 20 minutes, then asked for requests
Someone answered, “Yeah, how about ‘Let Me Sleep in Your Barn Tonight, Mister?’” and
everyone laughed and from then on they told jokes that night
Continued marching for three days and on one particular night, Gorashko was so weak and tired
that he couldn’t climb into the hayloft without assistance
In the beginning, men were able to keep up, but a week later some were falling by the wayside
By this time, the German’s had a wagon to carry the stragglers
Some of the older German guards (around 65 years old) couldn’t handle it and threw their guns
out
No one attempted to escape, no point because they were in the middle of German territory
No on attempted to escape from the camp, either, highly improbable that anyone could
get out; too many spotlights, dogs, and machine guns
Had to stay 15 feet away from the fence or the Germans would shoot, “Warning Rail”
“Long, Lean, and Unclean”
Some men had to walk 86 days, Gorashko did not because he got sick (01:36:50)
“Combines”- a group of three men who took care of each other; each did different duties
Gorashko got separated from his, but found a couple guys; about this time got diarrhea
Waiting for a train; couldn’t eat anything without it coming out, so he had to tell the German
guards
Took him a hospital barn where he was given a stall where he could sleep, also given a Red
Cross parcel and blanket
There for three days
Moved him to another barn, very cold, moved up into the hayloft
The group up there didn’t want him there because they had a way of getting extra food; he got in
on it anyway
A German General then came and took 49 of the prisoners by wagon to a prison camp in New
Brandenburg; waited for 16 hours in 0 degree weather

�Gorashko froze his feet and hands very badly; they were taken back to the barn because the
prison was having a Typhus epidemic
The next day, knew he needed to take better care of himself if he wanted to survive, went into
one of the greenhouses, a cellar
Had heated vents, so Gorashko snuck in there and warmed his feet; did this for a couple days
Bribed a French worker with cigarettes to keep him from being discovered
One day, a German General came walking through and greeted him, then continued walking; he
didn’t go back there again
Eventually, they were taken to a train by car; 50 men to a car
Travelled all night and wound up at a train station in Hamburg
Given a German Red Cross parcel with a piece of sausage and bread in it, thought it was out of
this world
Next morning, in another camp and bombers from England were flying over
The camp was filled with British men captured in North Africa; worse conditions than the first
camp
No Red Cross parcels
Allowed to keep all of their stuff, except their guns; had a little market going, a lot of trading, a
“stock market”; a very ingenious bunch
“Blower” a tin can that had fire in it and a small grill to set a can upon; use twigs, paper, and a
crank to light it; became very hot quickly
British were tough, found one of their men stealing and threw him in an outhouse and urinated
on him
One of the Americans happened to take a bunch of cigarettes but they were stolen from him
when sleeping
This was March of ’45 (01:45:30)
Received news everyday
The Germans came in one day and told them to pack up and move
Took them out to a gate; the war front was close, so saw a lot of German vehicles and planes

�The British had to stop and make their tea; one of the men from one of the other camps kicked
this over and bellowed at them to get in ranks
They began to march and after 5 km, a couple of planes come swooping down; a German plane
shot down by an American; was about 15 or 20 feet above their heads
Stayed at a farmer’s barn, no place to sleep; slept in on a conveyer belt of a threshing machine
The days were getting warming, passing through villages and crossing bridges
They were crossing one particular bridge when Gorashko suddenly heard the propeller of a plane,
thought it was going to strafe the bridge
Two 20 mm guns were shooting at these planes; these planes went over them shooting at
something across the river
Had felt helpless during that incident
Another incident: British Mosquitoes were patrolling the highways at night for convoys; shot a
rocket near the barn they were sleeping in
Decided to sleep under a wagon the next night
Kept being moved from one farm to the next, being fed barley (01:50:10)
Made it to an intersection where there was a little community
A woman fed them soup and cake
One of the guards said that the Americans were in the next village, one man on guard duty
Later, a jeep came in with a British Officer and American Sergeant; the German guard threw his
gun down
The Germans threw their hands up and the prisoners were told to round up all the guns and
Germans
Found a German supply truck with food, drinks, and money
Gorashko took half a loaf of bread and shared it with a guy who had half a jar of jam
While they were eating, a German Officer came up to them wanting to give up; Gorashko told
him he had to sit down and wait until he finished eating
One of the ex-POW asked them if they want some eggs, a woman was cooking for the men

�They walked to the house with the German officer, let him get his stuff then took the officer to
an enclosure with the rest of the captured
Went to the next town to get a car, walked then took a bicycle
Got into town and everyone was trying to leave so they could escape the Russians
One of his buddies got a truck fueled by pieces of wood and a fire
Everyone was having a ball drinking and singing
Came up to a bridge lined with stalled vehicles, MP’s made them push the truck off the road
(01:54:10)
Determined to get a car but all the vehicles were torn apart because they were being used as
blockades against the Russians
Began walking again, and a New Zealander in a jeep picked them up
Reached a bridge
Told by the MP to push the jeep into the river after they crossed the bridge
Gorashko saw a small cow path that went straight and said to go there so they wouldn’t have to
lose the jeep
Made it to another bridge, worried that the jeep would be taken
Met a 20mm English Gun Crew who told them to join them for supper
Had eggs and tea, told the crew they wanted to cross the bridge
This was the same crossing where they thought they were being shot at (the original bridge was
by now replaced by a pontoon bridge)
Saw one of the last actions, a house blown up by cannon fire; were waved across by MP’s
Driving late at night, had nowhere to stay; told to go to the Mayor’s house, then to the
Commanding Officer’s house
Shared a bed with a Lieutenant and hoped the guy wouldn’t get his fleas (had a lot of fleas)

�The next day, taken to a school house where they were served the best meal (01:57:20)


Mashed potatoes, Swiss steak, gravy, peaches



As he left, felt his mouth water and threw all of it up; stomach couldn’t handle it; did this
again the next night



Went to a hospital and was told to stop eating too much at once

Wound up at a British airport, waited for a plane, four or five days (01:58:10)
Flew to Brussels, Belgium, controlled by the British


Were issued British uniforms, but Gorashko wanted to keep his flying coveralls

V-E Day, May 8 (1945), lots of fireworks
Put on train to Namur, Belgium, under the control of the American Army
Was deloused, kept his coveralls which were deloused by gas
Given Invasion money, nice clothing, and had Belgian women bringing them food
Sent to Camp Lucky Strike on the French coast
Wanted to go to Paris; hitchhiked for two miles, but the road was blocked (01:59:25)


Didn’t have a pass, so decided to walked around the MP’s



Walked along the coast and saw all the emplacements for the Invasion



Did this all afternoon, then went back to the camp



Given eggnog provided by the Red Cross



Had a musician by the name of Alec Templeton, a blind pianist, perform



At night, men were playing crap games

Shipped out to Le Havre, France; told they would have KP duty (02:00:15)
Gorashko wouldn’t do it, so he walked out and went to downtown Le Havre
Had supper with some bargemen and was going back to the camp, but didn’t remember where it
was, and it was getting dark, had tea with a French man

�Left and eventually ran into another man heading toward the camp
KP duty again, went to downtown Le Havre, again; got back on a GI truck
Was then placed on a ship to Southampton, England; didn’t land, waited for orders (02:01:30)
A couple hours later, continued sailing
Had more men than bunks, so had to sleep on deck; still a very pleasant trip
Getting near America, could see a bellboy swaying back and forth
Had to proceed slowly due to fog, so Gorashko went under the deck to wait
Later, one of his buddies, Red, told him to get up on deck
Saw the Statue of Liberty, Ellis Island, and Brooklyn
Saw a sign on Brooklyn that said, “Welcome home! Well done!” there was a ship full of girls
and a band playing
He cried, it was great
Perspective (02:02:42)
All that had happened definitely changed the way he looked at the world
It talks about this in the last page of his book


It’s not the fancy things, the fancy clothes, the fancy cars that matter, it’s the everyday
things



“These are the things you miss: bread and butter, a clean shirt, a bath, a nice bed to sleep
in”

Benton Harbor was quite a welcome
Then went to Camp Kilmer, New Jersey by train
Saw German POW’s frying up steaks, AAA Steaks
The next day, went to Fort Sheridan, Illinois, allowed to go home
Home for about a month then got a telegram telling him to report to Miami Beach in a month
Shipped to Wilmington, North Carolina as a helper in a radio shop that had B-26 Bombers and P47 Fighters

�Moved him to an intercostals waterway where there was a ship; made a radioman there


Just guard duty

Given 73 points and shipped back to North Carolina and was discharged
Went home and wanted a better job at the telephone company
Was going on a date with one of the girls at the company and was waiting for her
One of the bosses comes by and asks him why he isn’t working here (knew him by name) and so
Gorashko told him he wanted a better job
The boss asked for his number and got him a job at Port Huron
Retired after 41 years, has worked all over Michigan

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
George Gordon
World War II
1 hour 20 minutes 3 seconds
(00:00:22) Early Life
-Born in Evanston, Illinois in 1925
-Raised in Lacrosse, Wisconsin and Winnetka, Illinois
-Graduated from high school in 1943
-Father was initially a beer distributor for Heileman Brewing Company
-Later went on to become a stock broker for Ashland Oil Company
-Had three brothers
-Remembers that the family had a cottage in Wisconsin
(00:03:06) Start of World War II and Enlisting in the Marines
-Head about the news concerning Pearl Harbor that Sunday night
-Didn’t know anything about Pearl Harbor prior to the bombing
-Gas rationing took effect quickly after the United States entered the war
-Had to do a lot of walking just to accomplish every day errands
-He was made aware of the war by the personal impact that it had on his life with rationing
-Prior to Pearl Harbor he hadn’t followed the war in Europe
-In April 1943 he was drafted by the Army
-On the way to being sworn into the Army the Marine Corps offered him a chance to enlist
-Changed his mind and decided to enlist in the Marines instead
(00:06:35) Marine Corps Boot Camp
-Went to boot camp in San Diego
-Didn’t do so well with rifle training because of bad knees
-The Marines desperately needed new soldiers so he qualified as a sharpshooter anyway
-Got to boot camp by way of train
-After twelve weeks of training he was allowed for a short leave home
-Went on marches in the mountains around Camp Pendleton, California
-Most men actually enjoyed being in boot camp
-They were given three square meals a day and a bed to sleep in
-Specialized with the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR)
-Remembers that there was competition between the training platoons
-Who could do a training task better, who would be rewarded, etc.
-Main emphasis was discipline and following orders
(00:14:37) Deployment to Guadalcanal
-In December 1943 he was sent to Guadalcanal in the Pacific Ocean
-He was assigned to C Company 1st Battalion 3rd Marine Regiment 3rd Marine Division
-Remembers that his lieutenant had been an editor for the San Francisco Chronicle
-Had gotten to Guadalcanal after being sent over from New Caledonia by way of transport
-Noticed that older men didn’t deal with deployment as well as the younger men did
-While he was in Guadalcanal he developed a serious infection
-While at Guadalcanal they received additional training for fighting in the Pacific

�-Learned that he was incredibly adept at throwing grenades
-Broke a Marine Corps distance record
(00:20:21) Marianas Islands Campaign-Landing on Guam
-In June 1944 he boarded an LST (landing ship tank) bound for the Marianas Islands
-Lieutenant got a personal letter from General Teddy Roosevelt Jr. before landing
-Landed at Guam
-LSTs were being protected by a destroyer
-Still took a hit from a Japanese dive bomber
-Before the landing at Guam they ran out of cigarettes
-He was part of the third wave in
-Still took Japanese artillery fire
-Japanese had already been pushed off the beach by the first two waves
-Abandoned his BAR and instead chose to help wounded down a hill back to the beach
-Later got hit by several banzai attacks without any kind of rifle to defend himself with
-Remembers that the Japanese were using dud grenades
-He was finally able to find an M1 Carbine to use for the time being
-Shot and killed a charging Japanese lieutenant colonel
-Noticed that the lieutenant colonel was attempting to become a suicide bomber
(00:33:45) Marianas Islands Campaign-Silver Star on Guam
-After getting established on Guam he and his unit were sent out to relieve an outpost
-They were set up in a skirmish line to attack a Japanese position
-Miscommunication led him to initially going out on his own
-Was able to get back to his own line without alerting the enemy
-Eventually the skirmish line pushed forward to engage a Japanese machine gun position
-He wound up running straight towards the machine gun position and got separated from his unit
-Only had two grenades on him
-Used last two grenades and two live ones that he found to neutralize the machine gun
-For destroying the position on his own he was awarded the Silver Star
(00:44:10) Marianas Islands Campaign-Other Details on Guam
-Spent a lot of time hunting down the Japanese forces on the island
-Given alcohol one time by a doctor to relieve his fatigue
-Wasn’t a drinker at the time and was able to fall asleep in his foxhole
-He wound up being able to sleep through a firefight between Japanese and Marines
-Spent three days in a hospital because of having dengue fever
-Spent most of his time on Guam going out on patrols
(00:48:33) Iwo Jima
-After Guam he and his unit were sent over to participate in the invasion of Iwo Jima
-Remembers that it was a hellish looking place
-Ugly island with nowhere to find cover from fire
-Soldiers welcomed getting horrendously wounded just to be off the island
-Remembers seeing amputees that were happy to be done with fighting
-Remembers that even after Mount Suribachi fell the Japanese continued to fight on
-Almost had to land on Iwo Jima
-His unit was being sent in, but after a logistics mix up his unit was sent back to the ship
-The plan from there on out was to keep his regiment on hand as a reserve unit
-Worked with cargo on board the ship during the Iwo Jima Campaign

�(00:56:29) Return to Guam
-In later 1945 after Iwo Jima he and his unit were sent back to the northwest part of Guam
-Mission was to help clear out the 7,500 Japanese that were still at large on the island
-Placed in charge of his squad
-Ran into a Japanese suicide bomber
-Was able to kill him before he could detonate the grenade that he was holding
-Eventually was able to clear out the remaining Japanese on the island
-Remembers that Guam had a diverse mix of terrains
-Red soil, arid places; jungle; and beautiful beaches
-His platoon was sent to a hill as a show of force for the higher command
-They weren’t supposed to be near the hill, but were because of miscommunication
-American artillery barrage wound up killing half of the platoon in a friendly fire incident
(01:05:24) Interactions with Non-Americans and Foreign Experiences
-Didn’t interact very much with the native Chamorro people on Guam
-They were U.S. friendly, but they didn’t exactly like the U.S. presence either
-Knew that they actively fought against the Japanese though
-Heard about one Chamorro farmer killing a group of Japanese soldiers
-Caught them on his farm and hanged their bodies
-He and the other Marines were allowed to eat the native fruit on Guam
-Got to know some of the native farmers on Guam
-Got to know some of the Korean forced laborers that they liberated from the Japanese
-Very friendly towards Americans
-Saw the Marines as liberators and allies
(01:09:03) End of the War and Coming Home
-Got back to the United States on December 14, 1945
-Landed in San Diego
-Went back to Chicago by way of train
-Didn’t have any overcoats provided to them even in the dead of winter
-Had been kept on Guam even after the bombs were dropped
-Serving as a U.S. presence there
-They had also been training for the planned invasion of Japan
-Sent to Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago and was discharged from there
-His father picked him up in Chicago and brought him home to Winnetka, Illinois
(01:14:22) Life after the War
-In early 1946 he enrolled in and attended Cornell University in Ithaca, New York
-Graduated after attending for four years
-Went to work for the same company as his father
-After that got involved with Standard Oil of Indiana (renamed: Amoco, now part of BP)
-Worked in Grand Rapids and Detroit, Michigan as well as in Chicago
-Met his wife while working for Standard Oil
-Settled permanently in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1955 (or 1960)
(01:16:59) Reflections on Service
-Learned that sometimes you have to have faith in fate
-No amount of training is ever too much training to prepare you for something
-Happy and feels lucky that he was able to avoid some of the worst landings in the Pacific
-Combat experience taught him to listen to intuition

�-Feels that instinct and intuition saved him when he destroyed the machine gun on Guam

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Jerry Gore
Length of Interview (00:09:13)
Background
Born July 9, 1949
Served in the Vietnam War, Army
Drafted into the Army
Living in North Baltimore, Ohio
During the time he was drafted, a Marine Sergeant picked which men would go into the Marines
and who went to the Army, no choice
Received a letter, was working at a rubber factory that made road seals
Everyone was getting drafted during this time
Tried to join the Navy, but wasn’t accepted
Fort Gordon, Georgia, did training there in March into the summer
Would run up a hill called Big Red, due to the red clay; it was terrible, horrendous
It was tough getting used to being away from home, had to adapt
Went through Advance Infantry Training in Fort Gordon
Did Jungle Training


Used the forests and swamps to train



Remembers doing night maneuvers, could see water moccasins in the swamps



The training wasn’t for him, he was a just a kid from a farm town



Once, during training, snuck around to the “enemy” headquarters where they didn’t know
what to do

�In Vietnam, he was a Machine Gunner, M-16; also was a Tunnel Rat


Tunnel Rat is someone who goes down tunnels that may be hiding the enemy

Always saw combat, but doesn’t want to talk about it
Once was sent back to the rear to Base Camp where they had the hospital
Had microscopic worms making him sick with fever


These things happened often because they were living in the jungle

While he was recuperating, the Playboy Bunnies came in and took pictures with the GI’s


When they heard what he had, they just took right off

Was never a POW
Was awarded the Purple Heart (wounded), two Bronze Stars, Army Commendation with Vdevice for Valor, Air Medal for combat assaults in a helicopter, Good Conduct Medal, Combat
Infantry Badge for the amount of time in combat, Vietnamese Medals for serving in Vietnam,
Cross of Gallantry which he received later
Wasn’t married before he left
Used radio to stay in contact with his family


A ham radio operator would contact the States with a telephone operator who would then
connect their call to the family

Would usually eat C-rations, also smoked (they were very dry)
Towards the end, had Warp Rations, basically dehydrated foods, which were pretty good
The stress of carrying a backpack about 45 pounds, and a 20 or 30 pound gun through the jungle
is memorable for Gore

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