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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee name: Gerald Gless
Length of Interview: 19mins. 51secs. 
Pre‐Enlistment (00:12)  
•

Childhood (00:20)  
o

•

Gless was born on February 6th, 1927 in Elkton, MI. He mentioned that he was drafted 
and served with the U.S. Army as a corporal. (00:25)  

Education (02:15)  
o

Backs up and mentions that he graduated from Caledonia High School. (02:15)  

Enlistment/Basic Training (00:38)  
•

Where he went and what company he served with (00:47)  
o

Served his first 16 weeks in basic training upon getting inducted into the service once he 
completed high school. (01:01)  

o

Briefly describes his daily routine and what he learned in basic. (01:16) 


In about the 5th week of basic training he was injured due to an exploding booby 
trap and was hospitalized for 3 days. All the while they were preparing for the 
invasion of Japan (01:47) Was sent back to a heavy weapons company who he 
trained with for the rest of basic training. (02:01)  

Active Duty (02:29)  
•

Italy (02:30)  
o

Upon completing basic training, he was deployed to Naples, Italy. Mentions that their 
Atlantic Ocean crossing took them 12 days. (02:32)  

o

By this time it was November, 1945 and upon staying a short time in Naples, he was 
redeployed to Florence where he was responsible for the handling of German POWs at 
Camp 334. (03:00)  

o

After his time here, he was stationed at Camp 339 near Pisa, Italy where he spent some 
time about a year there. (03:15) Was stationed here until October, 1946. (03:46)  

�o

Briefly discusses some of his traveling throughout Europe and other deployments in Italy 
and in Rome. (03:42)  

o

Job/Duties (04:13)  


o

Gless mentions that he worked in records outside of the German POW camp. 
His job was to help with the processing, organization, and handling of soldiers’ 
documents and other miscellaneous documents such as casualty lists and where 
soldiers were buried. (05:06)  

Other activities (05:35) 


Maintained a regular correspondence by letter with family. (05:40)  



Entertainment for soldiers usually involved going by private truck to the night 
clubs on the weekends. (06:20)  



Briefly mentions an instance where with the coming of replacements from the 
88th Division come down from Trieste, N. Italy and come to his camp one night 
that there was a German prison break. (07:16) Apparently, the German POWs 
had dug a tunnel near the latrine and under the fence to escape. (08:05) 
Afterwards, some Allied soldiers from the camp went and hunted them down. 
(08:27)  



Briefly discusses his impressions of concentration camp staff officers. (08:50)  



The day his service ended in December, 1946 he left Europe by boat and arrived 
in New Jersey where he boarded a train which took him to Fort Sheridan, IL the 
day before Christmas. (09:22)  



Upon arriving he boarded another train from Chicago and traveled to Grand 
Rapids, MI where he called his folks to come and pick him up. (10:12)  



Tells a brief story of what happened to him upon arriving in Grand Rapids. 
(10:21)  

After the Service (10:40)  
•

Adjusting to Home (11:01)  
o

After being discharged, he spent 3 years cutting logs. (11:08)  

o

Briefly tells some other stories of friends that he kept in contact with after his time in 
the service was over. (11:25)  

o

Briefly discusses his involvement with various veteran organizations and other career 
pursuits in some detail. (12:26)  

�•

Reflection (13:11)  
o

Gless describes what he learned from his time in the military and the life lessons he took 
out of that has impacted his life since then. (13:40)  

o

Wraps by discussing that the 11 week battle of Okinawa cost American soldiers 38,000 
wounded and 12,000 killed while the Japanese causalities came to 107,000 killed during 
the taking of the island. (15:11)  

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Korean War Era
Harold Gless
28:07
Introduction (00:24)









Harold was born on February 6, 1927 on a farm near Alto, Michigan.
He was drafted into the United States Army; the highest rank he achieved was corporal.
He graduated from high school in Caledonia, Michigan and went to work for the State
Bank of Caledonia in 1946.
Harold remained there until June 1951 when he was drafted.
Growing up, he had three brothers, all three of which served in the Army. His oldest
brother fought in the Battle of the Bulge during World War II.
He also had a younger sister who was killed in a car accident in December 1951. (03:45)
All his brothers were drafted. They were required to sign up for the draft and when men
were needed, they were sent a letter telling them they were being called up.
Harold was 24 years old when he went in the service.

Military Service (05:02)

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




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




At basic training, he learned to not talk and to listen. He also learned to never volunteer
for anything. They spent time on the rifle range and also hiking for four or five miles at a
time.
His basic training was at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.
The food was great while in, and he maintained a positive attitude through his service in
the Army.
When asked who wanted to be a truck driver, the people who volunteered had to push a
wheel barrow around all day. (07:25)
After basic training, Harold attended eight weeks of clerk typist school where he learned
about typing and how to be a clerk.
He was chosen to stay on base, while other men were sent to Korea.
Monthly pay was $37, which was good money back then because the food was furnished
and so was mostly everything else.
During basic training, they lived in a barracks with about two hundred other soldiers.
They were two stories with two rows of bunks. Around 5:30am someone would play a
bugle and wake everybody up.
He learned how to do everything the Army’s way, like making your bed and keeping
your footlocker organized. (10:02)
When caught doing something that they weren’t supposed to be doing, the punishment
was often push-ups.
Another punishment would be unloading the food trucks and KP duty.
Each group or company had a captain in charge and several sergeants that would run the
unit.

�







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

Basic training was 8 weeks long, and his advanced training was an additional 8 weeks.
(13:28)
After Harold completed both phases of his training, he became a company clerk. He
moved into a company and became permanent party, which consists of an officer, some
sergeants and the company clerk.
As the clerk, he did a lot of typing, record keeping, and creating the morning report. The
morning report kept track of each man in the company; this was done by name and serial
number. (15:18)
After basic training, Harold spent his entire two years at Fort Leonard Wood doing the
same job.
On occasion, he had to go pick up some prisoners and bring them back to base. He
would travel by train, once to Chicago, to pick up soldiers that had gone AWOL (Away
Without Leave). (17:52)
After thirty days of being AWOL, men were considered a deserter, which was a very
serious crime.
Harold worked for the 506th MP Company. After being there for six months, they
changed the name to the 506th Replacement Company. They would have troops
constantly coming and going.
After a while, they stopped getting new troops and only had a cadre of a lieutenant, first
sergeant, other sergeants, corporals and Harold as the clerk. (19:59)
As soldiers would come back from Germany, they would be sent to Fort Leonard Wood
awaiting new orders.
The morning report had to be completed and submitted by 10 am each day.
Everybody had to do training, even the cooks. (21:22)
Harold has an Army buddy that lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and over the 58 years
since he was in the service with him he’s only seen him once but gets a Christmas card
and a birthday card from him every year.

Civilian Life (23:51)




Harold was discharged from the Army in June 1953, and he had a job that he went back
to at the State Bank of Caledonia. He stayed there for fifty years.
His military service made him enjoy life, and it was a great experience. He also learned
teamwork and that helped build lasting friendships.
In a very short time, each man had to become more mature than they were before. (26:10)

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                    <text>Cr iticol Transnational
Femin ist Praxis

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WGS 450
GLOBAL FEMINISMS
Fall 2018 / CRN: 21627
Tuesdays 6:00 - 8:50pm
Dr. Ayana Weekley
This course offers a comparative analysis of local/
global feminisms through history, activism, development
&amp; forms of feminism in different countries, as well as
an examination of the status of women in those
countries as it impacts feminist activism.
Pre-requisite: Junior standing

Fulfills Cen. Ed. requirements for:
Clobal Perspectives
Issues- Human Rights
Questions? wgs@gvsu.edu

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                    <text>Global Mission in a New Key
Text: Isaiah 58:6, Acts 1:4-8
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
July 11, 1993
Transcription of the spoken sermon
“...to loose the bonds of injustice, ...to let the oppressed go free, and to break
every yoke.” Isaiah 58:6
“...to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8
It would be difficult to challenge the statement that it is the intention of God that
all God’s children live in freedom and human dignity. I don’t think anyone would
want to challenge that. Certainly that is the biblical vision. We noted last week in
the celebration of our own Declaration of Independence that God has blessed this
nation. This political arrangement was founded on the conviction that God has
created all people, all people, equal in God’s image. That to live in freedom is to
realize the human potential with which God has endowed us, and to live in that
freedom as we have for the last two hundred plus years, we’ve also found
economic prosperity because there has been, along with political freedom,
economic freedom. I suggested last week that perhaps, after some two hundred
years living with a Declaration of Independence, it is time for us now to declare
our Declaration of Interdependence because history doesn’t stand still. History
moves on.
While those thirteen colonies on the eastern seaboard were knit together by a
common vision, they lived not in nearly the proximity to each other that we live
with the whole globe today. Through the satellites that go through our sky we are
in touch with the whole world, and we know what’s going on everywhere. We
have become a global community. That global community calls us to a concern
for the whole world, for the freedom and the dignity of all people everywhere.
Certainly that is God’s intention. It was the prophetic vision the prophet was
most often called to speak to the people of God, to remind them that God’s
purposes transcended their own narrow interests. The prophet in Isaiah 65 of last
week’s Old Testament lesson spoke of the “new heaven and the new earth,” in the
time when people would build houses and dwell in them, plant gardens and eat
their fruit, living with dignity without exploitation or coercion, where the world

© Grand Valley State University

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�Global Mission in a New Key

Richard A. Rhem

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eventually would become a place where the lion and the lamb could lie down
together, and no one would hurt in all God’s holy mountain.
The Old Testament lesson this morning from the 58th chapter of Isaiah says the
same thing. The people of Judah having returned from the Exile carrying on their
religious observances said, “Why doesn’t God heed? Why doesn’t God hear us?”
And God says to the prophet, “Look, religious observances are not ends in
themselves. If you want to be truly religious, then care one for another. Break off
the thongs that bind people. Be done with injustice. Set the captive free. This is
God’s intention for humankind, for all people everywhere.”
With the globe becoming no larger than a grapefruit, and community becoming
world community today, it is incumbent for us to think of global mission “in a
new key.” Jesus stood in that prophetic tradition. Jesus sent his disciples into all
the world, “to the ends of the earth,” he said. He proclaimed the Gospel, the good
news. That good news – Jesus standing in the prophetic tradition – was that God
is near. God is present. God is gracious. That God would include and would
reconcile all people. Jesus said, “Go tell that good news.” And the Church has
become a missionary church.
We have noted in past weeks since Pentecost that it was unfortunate that there
had to be that break between Judaism and the Jesus Movement, but even so God
has used that division. The Christian Church has brought the God of Israel to the
nations. But the history of the Christian Church now encompassing the globe is
really a mixed affair. On the one hand you can write the story of the spread of the
Christian Church in glowing terms. There have been many heroes and heroines in
the faith. Christian Mission at its best has been concerned for medicine, and for
education, and for agriculture, and for the whole human condition. There have
been those who have given their all in order that the light of Christ might illumine
the lives of people. But the Christian Movement has a shadow side too. If we
would be honest we would have to admit that that movement into all the world to
make the world Christian was a movement that was characterized at many
periods with coercion. There were the enforced baptisms. There was the
development of that anti-Semitism which came to its ugly climax in the
Holocaust. There was the Inquisition - the enforcing of faith on people. There was
too often a lack of sensitivity to native cultures and native mores. So the history of
the Church has been a history of mission movement with a light and a shadow
side.
The modern missionary movement of the 19th century is the mission movement
that most of us are aware of. It was a movement that arose out of a passion to
bring all people to knowledge of Christ. What fired that mission was a conviction
that outside of Christ there was no salvation. But as that modern missionary
movement arose there was also the development of modern atheism. That whole
development of atheism in the Western World said that religion is not anything
that has any true counterpart here, but rather arises out of the human need itself,

© Grand Valley State University

�Global Mission in a New Key

Richard A. Rhem

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that human beings create religion. And then, encountering atheism, that most
serious of all criticisms of religion, there was the counterclaim that human
religion doesn’t start with us but starts with one who encounters us from beyond
and draws response from us.
That’s about where I was in Europe about a couple of decades ago, a quarter of a
century ago, wrestling with that one. Recognizing that if human religion is
response to the encounter of God from beyond us, which is really the vital claim
that we must make, then it became more and more difficult to say of all the
human responses in the respective religions, there is only one that is right, and
that one is mine. I didn’t have to solve that when I came back here in the early
70s because some of us went out to California to the Institute for Successful
Church Leadership, and we learned that you ought to bloom where you are
planted and that mission is where you are. So we gave ourselves to creating here a
loving community, a compassionate community. The last couple of decades are
the story of creating here a Center for Creative Christianity.
But time marches on. History moves. The world changes, and it’s time for us to
make another move. It’s time for us to come to Global Awareness. I have to credit
Peter Theune for bringing to us, as he came to the Christ Community team, a
greater sensitivity to the larger world. The Task Force on Global Awareness in our
midst has been a catalyst to get us to think outward. I think in the recent past, for
the past two or three years, our whole world has exploded to such an extent that
we know that we are part of a global community whether we want to be or not,
and we have to decide whether we will put our resources and our efforts in trying
to maintain things as they are - building walls and developing a fortress
mentality, or whether we will cast ourselves on the side of the agents of change to
bring about reconciliation, to remove the barriers and the divisions, and to bind
the human family together, which it seems to me is reflective of the biblical vision
of God’s intention. The God of all compassion who loves people, who would
mediate grace to all, who would gather all in his bosom in order to build the
family of God.
Let me challenge this community of faith this morning to a new engagement with
concrete mission. We’ve begun already. For a number of summers now some of
you have gone to Staten Island, Project Hospitality, where The Rev. Terry Troia
works with the alienated and the outcast of society. Your lives have been touched
and changed by that encounter. We are sending today a group of young people to
Chicago to an urban ministry to encounter the realities of the city. Later this
summer we will send a group to Wales to be with Bob and Kris Kleinheksel in
that urban ministry in the city of Cardiff. Concretely this morning you have
before you Jeanne Farrer who will be going from us to be our presence in Africa,
in Gambia, to teach, to serve, to be there as the presence of the love of God that
she has come to know in Jesus Christ. Let me challenge all of us this morning to a
new commitment to Global Mission.

© Grand Valley State University

�Global Mission in a New Key

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

But that commitment to Global Mission needs to be in a new key.
I hinted a moment ago that when I came back here in the 70s I could not rouse
you to passionate action in order to bring Christ to the world as though that was
the world’s only hope. That was the theological problem I was struggling with.
Now let me simply say boldly, having not solved all those problems, this I know the world is a hurting, bleeding, wounded place. We cannot deny it any more. It
comes into our living rooms and our kitchens and our dens day after day after
day. The anguish on the faces of the adults who bury their dead, who look into the
eyes of the starving children. The knowledge that in Zambia sixty cents per child
per year goes for their education. The knowledge that our world is being torn
apart most decisively by religious fundamentalisms. The knowledge that, with the
umbrella of oppression that held the world at bay for some decades now
evaporating, there is a new uprising of ethnic feuds and national pride and
arrogance. Our world is bleeding. Our world is wounded.
The God of biblical vision is a God who cares, a God full of compassion, a God
who calls God’s people not to the exercise of religious observances - the fasts and
the rituals, and the worship that ends there, but rather the God who calls God’s
people to true religion which is to be concerned for the poor and the homeless
and the naked. To break off all injustice and take away the yoke and set the
captive free. Jesus in his inaugural sermon in his hometown quoted Isaiah 61
saying, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me to proclaim liberty to the captive.”
Jesus, standing in that prophetic tradition with all of the compassion of God
moving through him, crying out to a world to break off the bonds and to set the
prisoner free.
Jesus would call us to his way; Jesus gave us the promise of Pentecost, which was
not a commission to found a church and a religion, but to move into the era of the
Spirit of God who transcends all human forms, the God of all mercy and
compassion who calls us to love the world as God loves the world. A new
commitment to Global Mission but in a new key. Not in order to found Christian
churches all over the globe, but in the name of Jesus to love, to heal, to bind up
the wounds, to teach, and to create a world in which it is possible for every person
not to become Christian, but to become human - for God’s sake. To realize God’s
purpose for human kind so that people might live in justice, peace - dancing
before the God of creation who dances in our midst, whose light shines upon us
when we catch the vision and allow our passion to be unleashed.
To bring salvation, salve, healing to the world. That is our calling. That will be
our joy. Together. We can’t do everything, but we can do something.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Gloria Rosario
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/28/2012

Biography and Description
Gloria Rosario grew up in Lincoln Park and Wicker Park during the 1960s, as those communities were
becoming unstable, and the forced dislocations had already pushed many of the areas Latino pioneers
from their homes. Ms. Rosario describes spending time with a neighborhood branch of the Latin Kings,
many of whom were the younger brothers and sisters of Young Lords. Like the Lords, they wore Young
Lords buttons and supported the community. Ms. Rosario remembers helping out with the Young Lords’
Breakfast for Children Program and the Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. She also recalls the
proliferation of drugs that were allowed to flow into Lincoln and Wicker Park during the 1960s and
1970s, undermining the activism and well-being of many of the young Puerto Rican men and women
who remained in those neighborhoods.

�Transcript

JOSE JIMENEZ:

Your name, your birthday, and where --

GLORIA ROSARIO: Okay. My name is Gloria Rosario. I was born August 18, 1955. My
family arrived in Chicago -- I think my dad came in ’49, my mom in ’51. Within
those two years, they established -JJ:

What town? Where are you from again?

GR:

They were in Guayama, in Puerto Rico.

JJ:

In Guayama, Puerto Rico?

GR:

Puerto Rico, yeah.

JJ:

Okay. In el barrio in Guayama or --

GR:

La Barriada Marin. Yeah. That’s what I remember.

JJ:

And did you have more family here? Is that why they came here?

GR:

Yeah. I think this is where my mother’s brother came, her older brother. And my
grandmother was here, her mom. And so, that’s where they came from when
they came [00:01:00] from Puerto Rico.

JJ:

And what was the reason that they said that they came?

GR:

I have no idea. I’m the smallest of the bunch. (laughs)

JJ:

And you say the bunch. How many siblings?

GR:

There was supposed to be 15. Nine were passed away. So, six of us were left,
my oldest brother Victor, my sister Peggy, [Manci?], [Serreda?], and my smallest
brother Frank.

JJ:

And you said nine -- the reason that they passed away?

1

�GR:

They passed on, miscarriages through childbirth, newborn birth. SIDS, most
likely. They passed away in their sleep.

JJ:

So then, your father came here to Chicago, and you were born in Chicago?
[00:02:00]

GR:

I was and my smallest brother. We were the last two out of the bunch. (laughs)

JJ:

And so, you said Henrotin Hospital, right?

GR:

At Henrotin. I was born there.

JJ:

So, where did they first live at when they came here?

GR:

I believe it was LaSalle Street. What I’ve been told was on LaSalle Street by
North Avenue.

JJ:

LaSalle by North Avenue? And this was back in 1949?

GR:

Fifty-one, ’52, yeah.

JJ:

Fifty-one, around ’52. Okay, and when did you start remembering? What was the
first memory that you have of Chicago?

GR:

When I was like maybe a year and a half. (laughs) I remember way back then.
Being taken from my house to my grandmother’s where I was babysitted.
[00:03:00] I remember going to my mother’s aunt’s house all the time. She was
old. She was bedridden. Going to church with my mom to St. Michael’s.

JJ:

Did you just go to church, or did you attend school there at all?

GR:

No, I didn’t go to school there. The school I went to was Manierre.

JJ:

Manierre. Do you know where that --

GR:

It’s on Blackhawk and Cleveland.

JJ:

And so, you went to church. Was it Spanish mass or was it --

2

�GR:

I don’t remember. I really don’t. I just remember going.

JJ:

But it was at St. Michael’s?

GR:

It was at St. Michael’s.

JJ:

And you were going to Manierre school. What was Manierre like? What kind of
kids -- what population?

GR:

Well, I was the only [00:04:00] white (makes quotation gesture) (laughs) in the
school in my room. There was two of us, a guy named Michael -- he was a white
boy. I remember that because he sent me a real big card for Valentine’s Day.
And this was kindergarten and first grade. So, the teacher said she was jealous.
I remember her saying that because I got the biggest card. (laughs) But that’s
about what I remember from Manierre school.

JJ:

So, most of the other kids were Black, African American?

GR:

The majority.

JJ:

And that was because --

GR:

They were African American. I guess the area.

JJ:

What do you mean the area? What was the area like?

GR:

Blackhawk and Cleveland, Mohawk and the back of [00:05:00] -- by Blackhawk,
North Avenue. At that time there were a lot of Black people living in that area.

JJ:

Okay, because also you had the Cabrini-Green projects there.

GR:

They weren’t built, I guess, at the time. That’s why. I don’t think they were built
because I had never heard of Cabrini-Green in the ‘60s, late ‘60s, early ‘60s.
Never heard of it.

JJ:

So, you go there at Manierre or you were there for a few years?

3

�GR:

At Manierre, I just went to my first grade, and then, we moved from there. Then I
went to Newberry.

JJ:

Where did you move to there?

GR:

To Orchard, between North Avenue and Willow.

JJ:

To the Lincoln Park neighborhood, basically. Because the other neighborhood
was more like Old Town. Right? Am I correct?

GR:

The south? Yeah.

JJ:

Yeah, the south, La Clark, (inaudible) La Clark. [00:06:00]

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

Do you remember them calling it La Clark or no? No? Okay.

GR:

I have no --

JJ:

Recollection.

GR:

-- recollection of that.

JJ:

So now, you’re in -- well, they didn’t call it Lincoln Park either. You were just on
Orchard and --

GR:

Orchard and -- yeah.

JJ:

Yeah, they didn’t call it by that either. Okay so, now -- are you still going to
Manierre, or what’s --

GR:

No, I’m going to Newberry School.

JJ:

To Newberry?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

And so, you went to Newberry your first grade. Right?

GR:

Second grade.

4

�JJ:

Second grade. Okay. So, how was that, Newberry? What was the difference
between that and Manierre?

GR:

It was different. There was a Boys Club across the street. I can’t remember the
name of the Boys Club.

JJ:

On Orchard? Right on Orchard? (inaudible)

GR:

Right on Orchard and Willow, yeah, right across the street from the school.

JJ:

So, [00:07:00] right down the street from your house basically?

GR:

Yeah, half a block.

JJ:

So, did you go to the Boys Club?

GR:

Every day.

JJ:

Every day?

GR:

That was what I --

JJ:

But I thought it was a Boys Club.

GR:

-- swimming -- well, it was for boys and girls. So, it wasn’t just boys.

JJ:

So, there was swimming there? Were you -- anything else that they did there?

GR:

The arts and crafts after school. They had a small library for books. They had
arts and crafts, and they would teach you how to make little things there. They
had games, a lot of games. Just regular kid stuff.

JJ:

But the population, the neighborhood -- how was that?

GR:

It was more -- it was a mixture there. There was a lot of Hispanics in that area.
White, I remember a lot of gypsies living in the neighborhood too.

JJ:

So, there was a gypsy community there or [00:08:00] --

5

�GR:

Well, not the whole community. But there were some people that were gypsies.
More than what I saw before. A lot of white people in that area before that I went
to school with. There was a lot of white kids.

JJ:

Now, at that time, they didn’t have any gangs through, right? Or did they have
gangs? Did they have white gangs?

GR:

They had gangs. But I didn’t see what I see today. You have to have a 38 or a
357 to be in a gang today. (laughs) Before all you needed was two fists.

JJ:

So, it was just neighborhood? Before it was just like a neighborhood?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

But did they have white gangs too or just Hispanic gangs?

GR:

Well, I know they had white gangs because my brother used to talk about them.
[00:09:00]

JJ:

What did he say?

GR:

How bad they were, their little motorcycles. They used to fight a lot.

(break in audio)
GR:

The only thing that I would see a lot of was the gypsies yelling at their kids not to
be talking to us, not to be talking to the other person, not to be -- to me,
discrimination was a big word before. Now, it’s so different. That I didn’t take it
as that -- I just take it as people that were bad. (laughs) That was it to me.

JJ:

So, the only other people that you saw at that time when you were young were
the gypsies and the Hispanics and the --

GR:

The white people.

6

�JJ:

-- few whites? And but before [00:10:00] it was a Black community, and now
you’re in a different type --

GR:

In a mixed, yeah.

JJ:

-- mixed community in Lincoln Park. So, did you -- how far did you go into
Newberry?

GR:

I think it was the third, fourth grade. Then from there -- no, I went through the
sixth grade because the seventh and eighth was the Arnold Upper Grade Center.

JJ:

Oh, so you went up to the sixth grade and then Arnold as --

GR:

Right.

JJ:

-- like the upper grade center?

GR:

But I had to change between schools. So, I had left Newberry and I had gone -we had moved.

JJ:

Where did you move to from there?

GR:

I think we were on Seminary by St. Theresa Church, right behind there.

JJ:

Okay. So, you moved up there.

GR:

And then --

JJ:

Over by Armitage and [00:11:00] Seminary up there?

GR:

Yeah, Clifton. They were across the street from Oscar Mayer School. (laughs)
Never went to Oscar Mayer though. I was already out of grade school.

JJ:

And so, you were already in Arnold and you were going --

GR:

No, no, no, Waller.

JJ:

That was a long walk. Did you walk or take the bus?

GR:

I used to walk. I walked everywhere.

7

�JJ:

So, you’re walking down Armitage or --

GR:

Down Armitage --

JJ:

And at that time --

GR:

-- cutting the streets, Dickens.

JJ:

-- what kind of people lived on Armitage at that time?

GR:

There was a big mixture. There was a lot of Polish people living that way.

JJ:

What year was this about?

GR:

Sixty-six, ’67, ’68.

JJ:

Okay. So, there were a lot of Polish people still living there --

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- at Armitage?

GR:

There still were a lot of -- and we lived on Burling, I remember, in ’61, ’62. That’s
where my grandmother died.

JJ:

Burling and Willow or Burling and Armitage?

GR:

By Burling and -- in between, right in the middle of the block. [00:12:00] (laughs)
Everything’s the middle of the block.

JJ:

And so, that was on the other side. So, that was still by Orchard.

GR:

Yeah, it was just two blocks away.

JJ:

So, who lived there? What type of people lived there? Just trying to get --

GR:

Hispanics, yeah.

JJ:

Mostly Hispanics on Burling at that time?

GR:

It was a lot of Hispanics.

JJ:

But that was --

8

�GR:

It was family, put it that way, because all my family lived on the block.

JJ:

Oh, the whole family?

GR:

My uncles, my aunts.

JJ:

So, when you came from Puerto Rico, they started moving in too?

GR:

They were -- some of them were here already. That’s why my mother came. I
think my mother was the only one left in Puerto Rico at the time.

JJ:

So, would you say when Puerto Ricans came here they came with their families
or --

GR:

Oh yeah. Just like the other people that migrate. There’s always a family
member here already and talks good about the place or that they like it or that
there’s work. And they follow. That’s what I believe happened [00:13:00] with my
family also.

JJ:

And they all lived together there on Burling?

GR:

Just about, if not close to it.

JJ:

So, otro Guayama?

GR:

Just about another (inaudible). (laughs)

JJ:

Okay. So, now you’re going to Arnold School. What was that like? What was
Arnold like?

GR:

I used to have a lot of fun at Arnold. I mean, that’s where I found the other
gangs. (laughs) Because I used to associate with everybody. I was never in a
gang though personally.

JJ:

What other gangs did you see?

9

�GR:

The Latin Kings and the Latin Queens. The ones they would argue with here the
Harrison Gents and stuff like that.

JJ:

So, what year was this? This had to be later, no?

GR:

Sixty-seven, ’68.

JJ:

Sixty-seven, ’68? So, Latin Kings were there and the Harrison Gents. And who
did you hang around mostly with at that time?

GR:

With the Kings.

JJ:

With the Kings?

GR:

Because I used to chase my cousins because they were in [00:14:00] gangs, and
I used to chase them. (laughs) We were always fighting with them, I was.

JJ:

With the Kings?

GR:

I was fighting always with my cousins because of the gangs and stuff that they
weren’t supposed to be in those things.

JJ:

But your cousins were in more gangs?

GR:

They were in the Kings.

JJ:

They were in the Kings. But you were fighting with them. So, you were going
with the (Spanish) [00:14:18], I guess.

GR:

Yeah, just about. (laughter)

JJ:

So, you were like their mom basically (inaudible).

GR:

Yeah, yeah, I was their favorite cousin, but I was still the one to watch out for at
that time.

JJ:

So, you weren’t in a gang, but you were hanging out with them?

GR:

No, I would hang out with everybody.

10

�JJ:

So, were you afraid of them or --

GR:

I just didn’t like the fighting stuff, and I didn’t like anything that had to be negative.
I wasn’t a negative person.

JJ:

And who were they fighting with?

GR:

Gents or somebody that would come down the avenue or Blacks or whites or
whoever. [00:15:00] It would be a motorcycle gang. (laughs) It would anybody
that was drunk, anybody that was -- it was just anybody.

JJ:

It was just fighting with anybody?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

And you said you were having a lot of fun. What kind of fun?

GR:

Well, I always had a curfew. And if I would go anywhere, it would be to St.
Theresa’s Church. They used to have a lot of quarter parties. The Queens used
to rent this club and -- it’s at Belmont and Sheffield. I don’t remember the name
of the place. But where --

JJ:

You mean a hall?

GR:

The hall.

JJ:

Viking Hall?

GR:

That was Viking Hall?

JJ:

Viking Hall, yeah.

GR:

Okay. That was on the next block over. Okay, that was it. Yeah.

JJ:

So, the Queens used to rent that?

GR:

Yeah, to have parties there. So, either that, or [00:16:00] I would go down there.

JJ:

So, the women were the organizers of the dance?

11

�GR:

It was this one lady that was -- she was a white lady. She was way older. I
mean, she was like a grandma already. So, she was old. They used to organize
the girls with the -- and I guess she used to be a Queen or something. That’s
where the Latin Queens --

JJ:

So, her purpose of organizing the dance was for --

GR:

It was really just to keep trouble out of the neighborhoods, just to keep something
going.

JJ:

So, she didn’t get paid by the city or anything?

GR:

No, no, no, no. She didn’t. She just did it on her own because I guess her
daughter was a gang member. (laughs) So, I guess she wanted to keep her on
her toes.

JJ:

So, because up there too where the Viking Hall, the Eagles and the Aristocrats -[00:17:00] they used to use that hall too.

GR:

Yeah, a lot of people used that hall. I guess it was one of the cheapest in that
area. (laughs)

JJ:

The cheapest to rent. So, a lot of the gangs too used it, rented it.

GR:

I’m pretty sure they didn’t tell them they were in a gang but --

JJ:

But they would --

GR:

-- used to use their names or whatever.

JJ:

Were they usually safe? The dances?

GR:

Yeah, most likely unless somebody brough alcohol in. Then they got drunk and
they got stupid. But other than that, they were just good old parties.

JJ:

Now, did the Queens and Kings come from other parts of the city?

12

�GR:

I think so. I think they’re from Belmont and Sheffield and from Armitage and
Sheffield. But they were all associated. Everywhere they would have a party,
they would all get together. They would come down to [00:18:00] St. Theresa or
they would go over to Viking Hall.

JJ:

Okay. So now, St. Theresa -- did they organize any dances there?

GR:

Yeah. The basement that they had over there on Fremont.

JJ:

You said the Queens did that too, right?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

But what about the other -- the adults. Do you remember them having any
parties?

GR:

Just the people that would rent the hall to use it for a Friday or Saturday.

JJ:

They would rent it. But there was always a dance there?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

You said quarter parties. How does that work?

GR:

Well, you pay a quarter to get in because a lot of people used to go to that
because it was cheap. And then, they just would dance all night there.

JJ:

So, when you say a lot of people, about how many people would be there?

GR:

At least three hundred.

JJ:

At least three hundred?

GR:

At least.

JJ:

And these were people from different groups?

GR:

If they were, they weren’t saying, (laughs) that’s for sure.

JJ:

Thy wouldn’t say what group?

13

�GR:

No. [00:19:00] But it used to be mostly the Kings.

JJ:

Mostly the Kings when they had their dances?

GR:

Yeah. The Concerned Puerto Rican Youth Center was across the street.

JJ:

Because there was a youth center across the street. But I thought that was
being run by the Paragons at one time.

GR:

The old Paragons --

JJ:

Mingo --

GR:

Mingo Ayala.

JJ:

-- and those people. Is that the one you’re talking about?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, you’re talking about the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth --

GR:

Youth Center, yeah.

JJ:

-- Youth Center. So, they were throwing parties and that. So, they were raising
money for their group too, for their organization or --

GR:

Well, I don’t know how that went about. I was on the staff, and I would go to the
meetings and stuff. I was the youngest one on the staff. But I never knew --

JJ:

So, what kind of things would they discuss at the meetings, I mean (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible)?

GR:

As far as discussion, the problems that they were having, what things they had to
change, [00:20:00] the attitude of some people that were working there --

JJ:

Working at the --

GR:

-- at the center.

JJ:

So, it mostly like to keep their orders?

14

�GR:

To keep the -- yeah -- and just to keep it established and try and keep it clean
and out of trouble in the neighborhood.

JJ:

Now, there was a lot of changes going on in the neighborhood, people moving
out, and did they deal with those things, or they’d talk about --

GR:

Not that I remember. They were trying to keep the kids out of -- after school to
stay in one place and not be running around the neighborhoods causing trouble
and stuff.

JJ:

So, it was like an after school --

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- gang prevention program, something like that --

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- except they weren’t preventing any gang, but they were preventing the
violence.

GR:

The violence, yeah. They were trying to do things that -- they would take us
camping. Projects -- we went to the Chicago Olympics, which was really great
because I was the only one out of the bunch [00:21:00] with a medal. (laughs)

JJ:

What kind of medal?

GR:

I got a bronze medal for high jumping, four feet, 10 and a half inches.

JJ:

Okay, alright. Congratulations.

GR:

Thank you. That was the old -- and my cousin took it from me, and then, he gave
it to my aunt and she’s screaming that it was his. So now, it’s gone. (laughter)
And she holds tight to that metal like a life. As long as it’s still there --

JJ:

Now, what were some of the other staff? Do you recall any of them?

15

�GR:

[Ayla Miranda?], Mingo Ayala. Do you know, I can’t even remember the names
right now? I just had a stroke, so that’s got to be the reason why I don’t
remember names. I remember the faces. I see them.

JJ:

Nestor Hernandez? Do you remember him?

GR:

Nestor, yeah. [00:22:00] (inaudible) Mingo, Nestor, I think Wilson or his brother
and --

JJ:

Now, see, some of these were in the Paragons before --

GR:

They -- yeah.

JJ:

And they also worked at the YMCA before -- because I worked with some of
them. That’s why I know them. So, you’re at Arnold school, and you’re going at
the dances too at the same time while you’re at Arnold school?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

No, anything else that you remember about Arnold school? What about Arnold
school?

GR:

I was a joker at Arnold School.

JJ:

What do you mean?

GR:

They only passed me because I had (laughs) honor roll grades in my eighth
grade because I had missed 86 days of school.

JJ:

Why were you missing those -- schools?

GR:

I was going to school every day, and the teachers would call me from the
windows. That’s how it was. And I would tell them, “Wait a minute. I’ve got to
watch this. They’re going to fight,” [00:23:00] or something like that. And the

16

�whole class would bust out laughing, things like that. But I wasn’t a bad student.
I had really -JJ:

Were there a lot of fights at Arnold?

GR:

Just the regular. (laughs)

JJ:

Every day? The regular every day?

GR:

Every other day.

JJ:

Every single day there was a fight?

GR:

Well, I mean, before, I guess, the Blacks were also against Puerto Rican people.
And there was a lot of that fighting. I mean, when Martin Luther King died, I
know my sister got beat up because they thought she was a white.

JJ:

I remember they were chasing people down the street --

GR:

All over, yeah.

JJ:

-- when Martin Luther King died.

GR:

In front of the school, yeah. My sister came out of the school. She was a senior
or junior. And boom, she got beat up bad because they thought she was a white
person.

JJ:

Okay. [00:24:00]

GR:

And she kept telling them, “No, no, no,” but she looks white. (laughs) Can’t help
that.

JJ:

But she was going to Waller though?

GR:

Yeah, yeah.

JJ:

So, you went from -- Arnold was across the street from Waller.

GR:

Yeah.

17

�JJ:

So, you went from Arnold to Waller? And did you finish Waller?

GR:

No. From there, I went to Wells, and from Wells, I went to Tuley.

JJ:

What do you remember of Waller, and what was your experience there besides
the --

GR:

I used to love the music class because I had all honor roll classes, which I didn’t
like because there was nobody there I knew. (laughs)

JJ:

Because they weren’t interested in studying like you were at that time?

GR:

I guess. They didn’t have the grade qualifications. [00:25:00]

JJ:

What made you want to study?

GR:

I wanted to be a doctor since I was real little. At the age of four or five, I was
taking doctor books at the library. (laughs) That’s what I wanted to be a doctor?

JJ:

I just love medicine. I love helping people. I mean, I help people to this day now,
as much as I can. If you need a favor, if you’re sick, I’m there, even if I don’t
know you, I’m there. (laughs) But that’s how I’ve always been since I was little. I
would walk down the street with my mother. You know, sometimes these old
men that drink, fall out, and they’re just out unconscious in the street. I used to
tell my mother, “Let my hand go,” so that I can go and see if that person was
okay. (laughs) She would get so mad at me. “What if that man jumps up and hits
you or hurts you or grabs you?” [00:26:00] “Mom, we’ve got to see if he’s alive.
That’s the important thing.” That was my concept of telling her to stay still.

JJ:

So, did you and your mom walk a lot in Lincoln Park?

GR:

Yeah. Walking was my thing. I used to play baseball at Lincoln Park. I used to
walk to Lincoln Park every day.

18

�JJ:

Where you on a team or --

GR:

A baseball team.

JJ:

For what school?

GR:

It wasn’t school. It was for Francisco Marcano.

JJ:

A league?

GR:

Yeah, baseball league.

JJ:

Francisco Marcano?

GR:

I played for four years.

JJ:

Did they have women on the team?

GR:

That was when they started the women’s teams. And most of the girls from there
--

JJ:

And these were being done in Lincoln Park?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

Any other parks?

GR:

Humboldt Park. They had them all over the parks. I guess it was the Chicago
Park District that was going to start these leagues.

JJ:

So, most of these were Spanish people that were coming.

GR:

Yeah. [00:27:00] There was Blacks on our team though. There was white,
Mexicans, all kind of races.

JJ:

So, you remember going to the park itself, Lincoln Park. And the lake -- where
did you go? Where did the Latinos go to?

GR:

It was across the street from the bridge where you go to North Avenue Beach.

19

�JJ:

Okay, the North Avenue Beach used to be -- it’s Spanish or a lot of Spanish
speaking used to go?

GR:

Yeah, it was a lot of Spanish people. There was a lot of whites too at that time.

JJ:

It was a mix?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

A mix at that time?

GR:

There was all kind of races by then that I would see.

JJ:

Is it like that now?

GR:

I think it’s a lot more white people going to the beaches now because I don’t go,
that’s for sure. (laughs)

JJ:

Oh, you’re afraid of that? (laughter) (Spanish) [00:27:50]

GR:

Not at all. No, I’m not scared of anybody or anything. I had that thing that, in life,
[00:28:00] since I was little, if something’s going to happen to you, it’s going to
happen to you because.

JJ:

Because of -- what do you mean?

GR:

Whatever. (laughter) Either you’re in the way or you caused the trouble or
something.

JJ:

But you had good times at the beach.

GR:

Oh yeah.

JJ:

You went to the beach.

GR:

A lot.

JJ:

Would you go to the beach a lot?

20

�GR:

My aunt has a lot of pictures when we were little. And that’s one of my favorite
things of doing when I go to her house is to see the pictures. I was a little Shirley
Temple. I had the worst curls in life. (laughs)

JJ:

Shirly Temple was a role model at that time --

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- I mean, for girls or for women?

GR:

Well, the curls -- I mean, my hair was so curly it wasn’t funny anymore. And from
curly to nappy to worse until I put an afro on my head because I couldn’t tolerate
it.

JJ:

So, you’re in [00:29:00] -- you went from Waller to Wells, you said? Why did you
do that?

GR:

I went to where my dad was at because he had been getting sick. So, my mom
and dad lived separately. So, I went to his house.

JJ:

And he lived where?

GR:

On Chicago Avenue and Throop Street, Elizabeth, Throop. Over there by -what’s the name of that --

JJ:

Chicano Noble, that --

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- ho house over there?

GR:

Eckhart Park.

JJ:

So, over by Eckhart Park. So now, did he move from the south to Eckhart Park
or no?

21

�GR:

No, from Mohawk or Burling, one of the two. He was always over there causing
a scene. (laughs)

JJ:

By Eckhart Park, that area?

GR:

No, by Burling --

JJ:

Oh, by Burling. He was causing a scene.

GR:

-- and Orchard and stuff.

JJ:

You mean from drink?

GR:

He was always causing a scene. But he didn’t sleep [00:30:00] there. (laughs)

JJ:

What causing a scene -- what do you mean?

GR:

I mean, drinking and just trying to be a tough man that he wasn’t. (laughs) That’s
my father.

JJ:

But now, he’s sick and he’s over by Eckhart Park?

GR:

He lost his eyesight there. He worked every day of his life.

JJ:

How did he lose his eyesight?

GR:

Waiting for the bus one morning on his way to work. He was diabetic, never took
care of it. And it will blind you. Diabetes will blind you.

JJ:

Was it education, the reason that he didn’t want to take care of it or he didn’t
have insurance?

GR:

I think it was out of laziness.

JJ:

His laziness?

GR:

Yeah. Just because he had everything he needed. He had his insulin. He had
his injections. He had everything he needed to take care of it. So, at one time, I
guess, when it started, he was taking care of it. [00:31:00] But then, alky came

22

�by and it’s all messed up. (laughs) I think it was his alcoholism that got him
where he -JJ:

So, you moved over with him to take care of things?

GR:

Well then, my brother decided that when he graduated from high school that he
was going straight into the military. He didn’t tell my father.

JJ:

He graduated from Waller?

GR:

Wells.

JJ:

Oh, he went to Wells.

GR:

Yeah, he was a top cadet.

JJ:

So, he went from Waller to Wells too.

GR:

No (break in audio) to Wells.

JJ:

Okay, so he was in with your pop.

GR:

He stayed with my father, so he was -- basically he went to carpenter school all
his life. And then, from there, he went straight to Wells and graduated from
Wells. That’s what he did. He was the top cadet for the ROTC.

JJ:

At Wells?

GR:

He was the one that got the big sword [00:32:00] at the end of the fourth year.

JJ:

What was his name?

GR:

Frank Rosario?. Suez is his real name, like the Suez Canal, a name he hated all
his life, so he changed it to Frank. (laughs)

JJ:

Frank Rosario? Okay.

GR:

I think it’s a beautiful name, I mean, Suez.

JJ:

Oh yeah. It’s a beautiful name.

23

�GR:

It’s really every bit as -- not everybody has it, period. (laughs) So, it’s an
individual -- I like the name. I don’t know why he didn’t like it, but I like it a lot.

JJ:

So, what do you remember of Wells? I mean, what’s a memory?

GR:

I remember the lunchroom real well (laughs) to be honest because I went to
[00:33:00] a few classes, but I was in the lunchroom.

JJ:

What was happening at the lunchroom that you’re laughing?

GR:

Just the food and just to sit there and watch people. I should have been a cop
since I was little (laughs) because I was always into that.

JJ:

Into watching?

GR:

Watching, learning, why did they do this, why did they do that.

JJ:

(Spanish) [00:33:23] You were talking about them, everybody that came by?

GR:

Not talking anything about them. But if they would do something wrong or if they
did something out of line or disrespectful or things like that, I would --

JJ:

You would correct them, or you would tell them?

GR:

I would tell them. And if they started to fight with me, (laughs) I would tell the
people that needed to hear it.

JJ:

Okay, okay. So, you keep them in line basically?

GR:

Tried, at least.

JJ:

Now, what was the population there, in Wells? [00:34:00] because that came -that was --

GR:

It was so different.

JJ:

It was so different, you said?

24

�GR:

Yeah, it was different at Wells, I guess too because I didn’t know too many
people there. So, I used to be alone a lot, just observing everybody and
everything. Then I went to Tuley.

JJ:

Okay, so you went from Wells to Tuley?

GR:

Yeah. I had to leave.

JJ:

Now, where is Tuley at from Wells? How far is it?

GR:

Tuley is where Roberto Clemente -- Tuley was the old Roberto Clemente. They
changed the name.

JJ:

Oh, okay. I got it.

GR:

Roberto Clemente is on Division, and Western right now?

JJ:

And Wells was on Ashland.

GR:

And Wells was on Ashland, and Oakley and Hirsch is Tuley. [00:35:00]

JJ:

So, you went to Tuley.

GR:

So, I’m in that neighborhood right now. (laughs)

JJ:

You’re in the Tuley neighborhood. So, that’s the Wicker Park neighborhood, I
mean, according to the city name. That’s Wicker Park. But you call it the Tuley
neighborhood because everybody used to go by the high school?

GR:

Yeah, it was Tuley High School.

JJ:

Now, they go by the name --

GR:

By the names and --

JJ:

-- of the neighborhood.

GR:

Yeah.

25

�JJ:

But they used to go by -- if you were from Waller, if you were from Tuley, if you
were from Wells. So, the high schools --

GR:

The schools were the --

JJ:

-- were the center.

GR:

-- basic neighborhood names. (laughs)

JJ:

They were the center. So now, you’re at Tuley. And what was Tuley like? What
type of population --

GR:

I used to love going there.

JJ:

What type of --

GR:

It’s a lot of Latinos, a lot of Blacks.

JJ:

About what percentage of Latino, what percentage of Black?

GR:

About -- I think it was like an 80 percent Latino at the time, maybe 10 percent
Black and 10 percent white.

JJ:

So, this is Wicker Park neighborhood, and you live here today.

GR:

I’m staying [00:36:00] here.

JJ:

And what is it today? Is it 80 percent Latino or --

GR:

No, it’s about -- it’s backwards now. It’s 80 percent white. (laughs)

JJ:

Oh, it’s 80 percent white.

GR:

And I guess it’s because of the rents around here. They’re so expensive. And
because of the -- just a change in the neighborhood. I mean, they were trying to
change it period. So, when Mayor Daley started with these urbanization projects
that he was doing, he started pushing people out of their neighborhoods into
other neighborhoods. You needed money to live.

26

�JJ:

But when that was going on, did you notice that it was happening or --

GR:

Oh yeah. I noticed that early in life, that they would -- so that they can better a
neighborhood, they would just take everybody out and clean it up and rent and
sell and do whatever they had to do. [00:37:00]

JJ:

So, they could better our neighborhood?

GR:

To better a neighborhood so that other people with money and --

JJ:

So now, it’s better, our neighborhood or --

GR:

I don’t see it any different. I don’t. I mean, maybe three percent (laughs) from a
hundred.

JJ:

So, when you say you don’t see it any different -- but I mean, there’s a lot of
condominiums and everything.

GR:

Oh yeah. But then, you have to have the money to live it.

JJ:

So, you’re saying in terms of your neighborhood, you don’t see it much different,
in terms of the people from your neighborhood.

GR:

From where --

JJ:

Latinos, the Latinos.

GR:

-- how I used to live, yeah.

JJ:

But the rest of the neighborhood is condominiums.

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, nothing changed in terms of the Latinos or the Black or --

GR:

No.

JJ:

-- the poor, whatever.

GR:

No. I mean, there’s less --

27

�JJ:

I’m putting words in your mouth (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

GR:

Yeah, I know. Spanish -- there’s a lot less Hispanics living in the neighborhood
now because of the rent of course unless they’re living under housing or
[00:38:00] Section IIX or something like that, which a lot of people are.

JJ:

Are you living in Section IIX, or where are you living?

GR:

No, we pay rent.

JJ:

Regular rent? Okay.

GR:

Yeah. I mean, this is a Chicago housing building. But it’s not --

JJ:

But you pay rent.

GR:

They pay rent. Yeah.

JJ:

They’re not Section IIX.

GR:

It’s not Section IIX or whatever.

JJ:

So, how do you feel about that, that they kind of changed the neighborhood
around you?

GR:

Well, it is sad because you’re used to seeing other people. I mean, it’s good
because it needed to change in a lot of ways. But then, it’s sad because you
don’t see nobody around anymore that you used to see. You don’t know who’s
alive or who’s dead or what’s going on with anybody anymore. So, it’s sad in that
sense.

JJ:

Do you think that [00:39:00] affected anybody or --

GR:

It affected a lot of people that wanted to stay. A lot of people had to get rid of
their houses, a lot of people that bought houses that time --

JJ:

They rented their houses? What do you mean?

28

�GR:

Some people bought their houses. And then, with the inflation and everything
else and -- the change in the neighborhood will inflate everything about your
house and everything else. A lot of people had to give their houses up because
they couldn’t afford --

(break in audio)
GR:

When I was growing up, North Avenue was the big avenue. They had the stores
there to go shopping, the grocery stores. As far as I can tell you, everybody
would walk around like -- there was not the fear that there is in this life today, that
everybody’s scared to walk or carry a purse or anything like that. Before, they
just -- everybody had their bags, hanging purses and their bands and their big
dos and whatever. (laughs) [00:40:00]

JJ:

So, people were not afraid like today?

GR:

No, no, no.

JJ:

Even though it was --

GR:

There was no fear before even though it was a Black neighborhood because we
always fought back. I mean, I was five, but I remember my sister got into a fight
at school because she won the basketball tournament and they wanted her
trophies. So six girls jumped on her, the six girls that were playing basketball that
day. And she got them all, (laughs) and they all went to jail. That was Peggy.

JJ:

So, people kind of lived comfortable because, I mean, if they had to fight, they
fought.

GR:

You used to sleep with your doors open before. I mean, it was just -- that’s God’s
honest truth. There were a lot of times we didn’t even bother locking the doors at

29

�night because it was that -- until then we started having trouble with my sister, the
oldest one, Peggy at school because of the girls that -- she was very athletic.
[00:41:00] So, they jumped her from sixth grade to Wells High School, from sixth
grade to high school.
JJ:

From sixth grade to high school?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

To Wells High School?

GR:

Yeah. They had to get out of the neighborhood because it was bad for her.

(break in audio)
JJ:

Okay. You were seven?

GR:

Coming out of second grade. I used to stay 10 minutes after school every day to
help my teacher out because she was a very old lady. And I asked for
permission to my mom to teach her. And since I lived only half a block down, on
the other side of Orchard Street, right in the middle of the block between Willow
and North Avenue. I lived right in the middle of the block.

JJ:

Oh, this was in Lincoln Park then?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

At the time.

GR:

The Lincoln Park area.

JJ:

By Willow and Orchard right there? And so, that was by Newberry School.

GR:

Right. Coming out of Newberry School.

JJ:

Oh, coming out of Newberry School?

30

�GR:

Yeah. My sister saw me, and that’s what -- and we got some photogenic
memories. [00:42:00] I mean, we’ve got some photographic memories and some
photogenic memories. We remember everything, I mean, from head to toe. And
that’s what caught them the next day.

JJ:

So, they did catch them?

GR:

Yes, his car. I was able to identify everything that I remembered in his car, and
that’s what got his car picked up. And he had taken out a little Tweety Bird he
had on his -- and I said, “The bird’s missing.” I told the officer, “The bird’s
missing.” So, they opened up the glove compartment. “There it is.” (laughs) The
bird was in there.

JJ:

So, you were seven years old, you said?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, what year would that be about?

GR:

Sixty-one, ’62.

JJ:

Sixty-one, ’62?

GR:

Sixty, ’61.

JJ:

Sixty, ’61. So, you had moved at ’60, ’61 to Willow and --

GR:

From North Avenue and Mohawk to Orchard.

JJ:

So, you basically were just following North Avenue or --

GR:

Yeah, just about. It was just about --

JJ:

And that was the street that people were following --

GR:

Because when we went up to Campbell. Yeah. [00:43:00]

31

�JJ:

Then you went to Campbell later? Okay. So, you stayed near Willow. You didn’t
go up to Armitage?

GR:

No, I was always up by Armitage because my sisters were in school there, and I
would walk with them sometimes that way. But I was small, so I usually -- I was
in the house all the time watching my dad because I had to watch him over my
mom. (laughs) He used to drink a lot. So, when he would say something to her,
“Oh no, you’re not. You get out of here right now.” (laughs)

JJ:

And he would listen to you?

GR:

I wouldn’t let him come near my mother.

JJ:

(Spanish) [00:43:37]

GR:

(Spanish) [00:43:38] He didn’t know that. But I would pop out and tell him, “No,
my mom is always so good to you. Why are you treating her like that? She
didn’t saying nothing wrong to you. She hasn’t even talked to you and you’re
[00:44:00] already telling her that you’re going to do this and you’re going to do
that. That’s not right. That’s not what I’m learning in this house is to be a good
person, and you’re not teaching me that.”

JJ:

Was he hanging around with other people or --

GR:

My dad was a loner. My dad used to be alone all the time. But he was always
there when my mom and dad were separated. And even then, when he got sick
and lost his eyesight for not taking care of his diabetes -- he went blind waiting at
a bus stop to go to work, on his way to work. And he lost his eyesight right there
waiting for the bus. So, somebody walked him back to the house. And then,

32

�when we called doctors and everything -- but that’s because he never took care
of his diabetes.
JJ:

You mean he never took insulin or --

GR:

He was a Type I diabetic, so --

JJ:

He needed insulin.

GR:

Brandy or a little whiskey -- that was his diet, not insulin -- [00:45:00] or cold beer.
That was his insulin.

JJ:

More sugar?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, what was -- can you describe the neighborhood at that time, in 1968, right
around that time? What do you remember? You were seven.

GR:

Yeah, I was seven. But I was always in the Boys Club. I was always -- since the
age of three, I used to go to that big pool on Ogden and Larrabee, North Avenue.

JJ:

The [Aishan?]?

GR:

The Aishan YMCA, exactly. That’s where I learned how to swim at the age of
three. So, I was just -- water was for me all the time, swimming.

JJ:

What kind of people lived there?

GR:

A lot of Hispanics. And that was 90 percent Black at that time.

JJ:

That Aishan YMCA?

GR:

Yeah. My sisters used to take me because they couldn’t go if they wouldn’t take
me. (laughs) And their high school friends --

JJ:

There was Spanish and Black?

GR:

-- Hispanics, yeah, all the old guys [00:46:00] from --

33

�JJ:

And 90 percent Black because they were from Cabrini-Green?

GR:

They all lived there on North Avenue.

JJ:

North Avenue.

GR:

Yeah. On North Avenue, Larrabee, Mohawk, Sedgwick.

(break in audio)
JJ:

So, why did they pass away, your siblings?

GR:

Some of them were before birth, miscarriages. And some of them were -- I know
the oldest one died from SIDS, which was -- she died in her sleep. That’s just
when they don’t have an undetermined cause of death and they don’t find no foul
play.

JJ:

What did your mother say? You said that they were miscarriages? What did you
mother say they were miscarriages from?

GR:

She was having a baby every year, so you could imagine that’s why. (laughs)

JJ:

So, that’s why?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, you came here, and you lived by Mohawk. You remember --

GR:

Yeah, definitely.

JJ:

-- that area? What do you remember about that area?

GR:

I remember Blackhawk Street. I went to Cleveland. [00:47:00] I remember my
grandmother basically.

JJ:

What was her name?

GR:

Florence. And I remember her because I used to stay with her when I was two.
She used to babysit me during the day while my mom worked because my

34

�brother was smaller, so my other aunt used to take care of him during the day.
And I remember her because she had an attic where she would wash her clothes
with a little -- what do you call it -- that tin bathtub (laughs) and the (Spanish)
[00:47:31]. That’s what it sounded like. So, I used to sit there, and I always used
to be mesmerized at how she would sit there. And she’s have her legs like this
and washing clothes. And one day I said, “What’s” -- she says, “That’s a spider.”
(laughs) You know where I’m going with that. She had her legs open, and she
didn’t have no underwear. So, that was so funny. [00:48:00] That was so funny
to me that she said she had a spider. (laughs) And I got so scared because I
was only two. So, I really didn’t know -- when she said a spider, I didn’t know she
was talking about herself. But she was just a beautiful person. She was a loving
and caring person. And I lost her when I was five, six. She passed away when I
was in first grade.
JJ:

What happened?

GR:

Well basically they’ve all died from high blood pressure, heart trouble,
thrombosis.

JJ:

Thrombosis?

GR:

Yeah. So, everybody in my mom’s side of the family has died at the age of 62 or
less, including my father, and he didn’t belong on that side. (laughs) But they
were 62. That was the number, 62, in my house.

JJ:

That’s when they passed away?

GR:

All of them. [00:49:00]

JJ:

Now, the other ones that grew up -- they grew up in Chicago too?

35

�GR:

Yeah, we were all raised here.

JJ:

What school --

GR:

My sisters.

JJ:

-- did you go to?

GR:

I went to Manierre, LaSalle School. I went to Newberry. That’s where I got
kidnapped from. And I went to Arnold, Waller. Then I went to Wells, and then, I
went to Tuley.

JJ:

You said you got kidnapped from Manierre?

GR:

Second grade, coming out of school.

JJ:

What do you mean, kidnapped?

GR:

I was kidnapped from a man, a Hispanic man. I was seven years old, and he put
me in his car. And he had a big knife next to him. And he let me go two hours
later, the same spot. And when I was going to the house -- and since he left me
right off at Newberry again, right there on Willow and Orchard, he came back and
he said he’d pick me up the next day. He was taking me to the zoo. [00:50:00]
That’s what he told me. (laughs) So, when I’m walking home, I see all these
policemen, detectives. I said, “Oh, something happened.” I’m all excited
because I want to know what -- and it was me, the excitement -- “Oh, there she
is?” I said, “Oh my gosh.” Then I got scared. So, it was something I’d never
forget.

(break in audio)

36

�GR:

Hi. I’m Gloria Rosario. I am from Chicago, was born and raised here in Chicago,
August 18, 1955. My family is originally from Puerto Rico in the town of
Guayama, town of the witches.

JJ:

And so, what year did they come from Puerto Rico?

GR:

I think my dad came in ’49 and my mom in ’51.

JJ:

Do you remember what neighborhood they lived in?

GR:

On LaSalle Street. That’s where there was a lot of Spanish speaking people
when they came from Puerto Rico. [00:51:00] cause I was born here. So, I
wasn’t even thought of. (laughs)

JJ:

And where were you born, what hospital?

GR:

Henrotin Hospital, which no longer stands.

JJ:

That was on Oak and LaSalle?

GR:

On Oak and LaSalle.

JJ:

They used to call that neighborhood --

GR:

Chestnut and Oak.

JJ:

-- La Clark. That was La Clark. They used to call it -- because the Clark Street
was the big street.

GR:

Yeah, the Clark Street was behind it. Right.

JJ:

So, your parents were living there. And what neighborhood did you first
remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

GR:

Mohawk Street, that’s where we moved from LaSalle Street. I was still a baby
then. But I remember when I was like one and three months, a year and three
months old. That’s how far back I can tell you about my life because I had my

37

�first dance with my father, and I’ll never forget that day. It was October 12th, my
brother’s birthday. And we had our first dance, and he’s a year older. So, I was
two years and two and a half months old. And I had my first dance with my
father.
JJ:

With your dad? [00:52:00]

GR:

And I’d never forget that.

JJ:

What was the --

GR:

It was on Mohawk Street.

JJ:

Mohawk and --

GR:

Mohawk and North Avenue.

JJ:

-- and North Avenue right there?

GR:

Right by the L track, first house by the L track.

JJ:

So, that’s basically like old town.

GR:

That’s like old town, yeah.

JJ:

That’s the old town neighborhood now? So, you lived there? So, you came from
LaSalle and that area to old town?

GR:

Right, from LaSalle, North Avenue area to Mohawk and North Avenue.

JJ:

And you remember the dance. And then --

GR:

That was my brother’s birthday, first birthday. So, I’m a year older.

JJ:

How many brothers and sisters do you have?

GR:

There’s six of us. There was 15. Nine died, during birth or before birth. So,
there were six of us.

JJ:

All in Chicago?

38

�GR:

My oldest brother died. They were all born in Puerto Rico. I was the only on
born in Chicago, plus my little brother.

JJ:

So, why do you think the other ones died?

GR:

Well, the first one died -- [00:53:00] I know she had what they called -- that thing - not bed -- what do you call that? I forgot the name of it.

(break in audio)
JJ:

So, 1968, 1969, 1970, the Young Lords were at Dayton and Armitage, at the
People’s Church.

GR:

Right.

JJ:

Do you remember them changing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

GR:

I always remember them there. That’s the first thing.

JJ:

Did you know them when they were a gang?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

And how were they at that time?

GR:

Well, I didn’t hang out with them a lot, but I used to go through the neighborhood
all the time because I had friends living right there on Dayton across the street
from the church, from the People’s Church. [00:54:00] And I used to pick my
friends up to go to school in the mornings. So, I know they used to have parties
there. They used to have a lot of -- what do you call those -- protest type --

JJ:

Oh, that was later. That was when they were political. But I’m talking about
when they were just a street gang. Just hanging out and --

GR:

See, to me --

JJ:

-- Halsted and Dickens. Do you remember that area?

39

�GR:

Yes, of course. I used to work there at the hot dog stand. (laughs)

JJ:

Oh, you used to work at the hot dog stand?

GR:

Both of them.

JJ:

With George?

GR:

With George and then across the street.

JJ:

Well, tell me something about George. What do you know about George if you
worked with him?

GR:

He was a good guy.

JJ:

I mean, where was he from?

GR:

He had a good heart.

JJ:

What country was he from?

GR:

I don’t -- I think he was Italian or Greek, one or the other. I don’t remember.
(laughs)

JJ:

And you said --

GR:

But he was a good person. He had a good heart. Didn’t let nobody mess with
nobody in his place [00:55:00] or would just throw them out if they were really
nasty people, wouldn’t serve them. Gave free food out to people that were
hungry that didn’t have money. I know I saw that with my own eyes. George was
a real good person.

JJ:

You don’t know his last name, do you?

GR:

[Kowiski?], [Kopinski?], or [Wiski?] (inaudible). (laughs)

JJ:

So, he was Polish. He was Polish then.

GR:

I don’t remember. But I know he was -- they moved and --

40

�JJ:

He was there before that neighborhood was Spanish.

GR:

Right.

JJ:

And then, the Spanish came in. And then, it was completely Spanish going to
that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

GR:

To that area, yeah.

JJ:

But he would keep the peace?

GR:

From there, we moved to Halsted and Wrightwood. They opened a new -- and I
was the only one asked to go work over there other than the family that was
working with him. But I was one of the only people that he asked if I could go
work that. [00:56:00]

JJ:

But you were there when all the gangs used to come after --

GR:

After school.

JJ:

-- school and to the parties.

GR:

Waller.

JJ:

Oh, after school they had the rioting and all that (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible).

GR:

Yeah, it was for the Martin Luther King era.

JJ:

That was kind of a little later, but that’s fine. But you were there then. You were
working with George.

GR:

Yeah, sure was.

JJ:

And you said he was a nice person? Was he married or did he have any kids?

GR:

Yeah, he had a family. Who his wife -- I don’t remember none of that right.

JJ:

But they live in the community?

41

�GR:

I know his brother used to work there with him. I don’t even know where they
lived. I never asked questions like that. Him being my boss and stuff.

JJ:

Well, were there like almost 24 hours a day.

GR:

Yeah, they were there from real early to late at night.

JJ:

And everybody used to come and hang out at the parking lot.

GR:

In the parking lot, inside when he changed it because he had that -- just the front
to serve people. Then he changed it to an L shape so they could come through
the side [00:57:00] and through the front. From there, he moved to Wrightwood
and Halsted, in between Wrightwood --

JJ:

So, do you remember some of the groups that used to hang out there?

GR:

Basically just the people from the school. The Kings would be there. The Young
Lords. Not the Harrison Gents, but the Paragons.

JJ:

Flaming Arrows, all these different groups?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

Imperial Aces, all of the (inaudible).

GR:

I don’t remember anybody from the Imperial Aces or anything like that.

JJ:

Well, the Imperial Aces and Queens used to be on Dayton and Armitage before
we were --

GR:

Before the people --

JJ:

-- before the Latin Kings were in.

GR:

I remember those.

JJ:

So, George was there for many years. He was --

GR:

Oh yeah, because I remember being small and coming to that hot dog stand.

42

�JJ:

And then, that whole [00:58:00] side of that street was wiped out. Right?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

Now, do you remember who used to live on that side of the street, or no?

GR:

Across the street from George was St. Joseph’s Hospital before they moved it to
[Diversica?], to -- what do we call that street now? [Lakeshore Drive?].

JJ:

Oh, on the other side, across the street on Dickens.

GR:

Yeah, on Halsted and Dickens, right across the street from George.

JJ:

Was St. Joseph’s hospital. Okay.

GR:

Was St. Joseph’s because that’s where my nephew and my niece were born.
And ’61 and ’62 -- that was where the hospital was. So then, they tore down that
building after St. Joseph left. It was a big empty lot there.

JJ:

Some of the women would join the Paragons. There would be women that hung
around with them. And the Kings had the Queens that [00:59:00] hung around
with them. What was it like for the other women? They still went to the dances,
but they --

GR:

Yeah. They were like me, “Hey, hey, Queen love and whatever,” just associate.
(laughs)

JJ:

I mean, were they sheltered by their parents? Did the parents try to keep you
away? They didn’t shelter you.

GR:

I was pretty sheltered.

JJ:

What do you mean?

GR:

I had a curfew, and if I was a minute late, I wasn’t going out next week, that’s for
sure.

43

�JJ:

So, you were sheltered.

GR:

I would call my mom and tell her I was going to be five or 10 minutes. I lived right
across the street behind the church, so I didn’t have too far to go. (laughs)

JJ:

So, you were lucky because you were by the church so you could stay out.

GR:

I guess basically wherever I would go, I would always make sure that I had a
watch or somebody with a watch next to me. (laughs) I mean, it was important
[01:00:00] to me to follow my mother’s rules.

JJ:

So, it was important. So, you did it not out of fear. You did it because of --

GR:

More out of respect. I knew she was a hard worker, that she was taking care of
us alone, and that she could need me at any moment for anything.

JJ:

So, it was more out of respect, meaning that you knew it would hurt your mother
if you --

GR:

Exactly. I would do nothing to try and hurt her. I just loved her that much that it
would hurt me -- I didn’t like the way they look at her mean. Some men just were
ugly and mean, and they would whistle. And I would tell them, “Don’t be looking
at my mother like that.” (laughs) I didn’t know it was just that they were trying to
throw a whistle or whatever.

JJ:

Could that have been because you kind of were more aware of the streets
[01:01:00] than she was?

GR:

I was aware of them.

JJ:

Or was your mom more aware of the streets?

GR:

No, I was definitely.

44

�JJ:

So, you saw her more like someone that came over from Puerto Rico that didn’t
really --

GR:

Wasn’t street smart.

JJ:

-- wasn’t street smart.

GR:

Right.

JJ:

And so, you had to protect her?

GR:

It was basically -- that’s the word. It was more out of protection, just watching
her, that nothing would happen to her. I mean, she was my life.

JJ:

So, were other women doing the same thing, other girls at that time?

GR:

I don’t know. I don’t because when I used to be with my mom, we would hang
out together, whatever, go anywhere together. It was just her and I. But as far as
if other girls did whatever they did with their parents, I don’t know.

JJ:

So, you weren’t a Queen, but you were hanging around the Kings and the
Queens?

GR:

Be with them most of the time, yeah. [01:02:00]

JJ:

And so, you must have gotten involved in some of the same things they did.

GR:

I never got into the fights. I didn’t --

JJ:

I mean, was any weed smoked or anything like that?

GR:

I was always away from that lifestyle. I didn’t like it. I knew people that did it,
that was their business. I didn’t care for it. I didn’t do drugs at that time. I did
use them after a while in life, but I stopped also.

JJ:

And not during that time?

GR:

I used to love to drink.

45

�JJ:

So, that time was the drinking time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

GR:

Yeah. For me. And I stopped drinking when I was 21. Instead of starting then, I
stopped (laughs) on my birthday. Two days after my birthday I stopped drinking.

JJ:

Okay. So, you started at what age, I mean, drinking?

GR:

Maybe nine, 10, just trying it out.

JJ:

And at 21 you stopped? You went backwards?

GR:

I stopped. Yeah. I was backwards. (laughter)

JJ:

You were kind of backwards.

GR:

But thank God I did that because my liver’s still alive (overlapping dialogue).
[01:03:00]

JJ:

Because I know in the neighborhood they got into deep drugs. I got into deep
drugs. But not at that time. But later you said?

GR:

Yeah, later in life, I was --

JJ:

So, you were living where, in Wicker Park at the time when it happened?

GR:

By Humboldt Park.

JJ:

By Humboldt Park? So, this is after Wicker Park was gone and Lincoln Park.

GR:

Up until I was 19.

JJ:

Lincoln Park was gone?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

Do you think that could have contributed to anything?

GR:

No, what contributed to it was family. (laughs) They were into it heavily. I didn’t
know. And I used to have migraines and they supposedly crushed Tylenol until I

46

�found myself sick one day. I didn’t know. I thought I had the flu. And I was in the
big bad habit of heroin, which was supposed to be Tylenol. (laughs) [01:04:00]
JJ:

So, it wasn’t Tylenol. It was heroin.

GR:

It wasn’t Tylenol. It was heroin.

JJ:

They were crushing the heroin.

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, what year was that?

GR:

They would tell me it works faster for the headaches. Seventy, ’71, ’72.

JJ:

Nineteen seventy-two. And that was over here. That was in the Humboldt Park
area?

GR:

Yeah. Then I went to an intervention. I went to 21 day treatment, cold turkey,
and came out and tried to get my sisters in there, one of them.

JJ:

So, your sisters had the same experience?

GR:

Yeah. That’s what I was taught.

JJ:

From your sisters? (laughter) Okay, so your --

GR:

From one of them, which I won’t say names --

JJ:

Oh, no, no. That’s fine.

GR:

-- out of disrespect to them.

JJ:

No, no, no. But I mean, it was happening with family.

GR:

My oldest brother, yeah.

JJ:

Now, could it be that it just kind of multiplied all at once like a fad or something?
[01:05:00]

GR:

Well, you know, I --

47

�JJ:

I mean, first people are using that --

GR:

-- was really upset because I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to go into
medicine. And that just killed it, crushed it because I was a drug addict. (laughs)
I couldn’t be a doctor like that to help another person. Are you kidding me?

JJ:

Now, how did --

GR:

That affected me real bad. I think that’s where my depression came from.

JJ:

From there?

GR:

Yeah.

JJ:

What about your mom? Were you worried about her, protecting her?

GR:

She didn’t know. She knew that my brother used, but she didn’t know about us
until later. I mean, she knew I tried some drugs because I would tell her myself.
I wouldn’t wait for nobody to come and tell her. (laughs) I would come and tell
her myself, “I tried this out, and no good.”

JJ:

So, why would you tell your mom? Why would you tell her if you didn’t want her
to -- [01:06:00]

GR:

Well, I wanted her to know what I was doing. If anything were to happen to me
that she wouldn’t be shocked that this came out in my blood system or that would
come out of my blood system and stuff like that.

JJ:

So, you were trying to break it down to her.

GR:

Down to her, exactly.

JJ:

Because she wouldn’t be affected later?

GR:

Exactly. I didn’t want her to just found out all of the sudden and say, “How the
heck did I not notice that my daughter was doing all these things or all those

48

�things or whatever?” So, I would sit and tell her, “Mom, I tried this and that.” I
said, “You know how that is. People are in the street and they offer it and you
don’t know. And they continue to offer it up until, “Hey, but try it. You’ll like it.”
And then, you take it and you throw up and you vomit all your guts out and you
say, “No thank you.” (laughs) So, that’s how I broke it down to her.
JJ:

Now, [01:07:00] you had children? You got married? Or what happened then?

GR:

No, I had a boyfriend and I got pregnant. I didn’t even know I was pregnant. My
boss told me. He said he found me a little bigger. It was my breasts. That’s
what he was talking about.

JJ:

That’s your boyfriend?

GR:

No, my boss at work. Yeah. He said, “Are you pregnant?” I said, “Pregnant?
Why would I be pregnant?” He says, “Because I’ve seen you gain breasts in the
last few weeks.” (laughter)

JJ:

He was checking.

GR:

He told me just like that. I said, “Oh, so that’s what you’ve been looking at?”

JJ:

He was evaluating.

GR:

Yeah. And I went and took a test and sure enough, I was. And that was my
daughter. I let her dad know. And I think he got married about four or five
months after that to someone else.

JJ:

Okay. But was he married to you then?

GR:

No, we weren’t married.

JJ:

Oh, you weren’t married.

GR:

Never been married. [01:08:00]

49

�JJ:

And then, you have a son too, right?

GR:

Yeah, Denny. That’s my son, the one that passed away.

JJ:

Oh, he recently passed away? I’m sorry to hear that.

GR:

When he was 21, 10 years ago, July 25th.

JJ:

How did he pass away?

GR:

A log truck hit him or he hit the log truck. Something happened. And the man
was trying to tell him to stop, stop, stop. And he had just left his girlfriend’s
house. And he had been telling her that he took his life insurance out on her
name. I guess he was in love, and then he was out of it (laughs) or whatever
happened. The thing was that she was so mad at him. And I always said that
she had something to do with his death. Because my son was a Christian. And
he preached since the age of three. And never, never would he fall asleep like
the way that they said he was out of it, totally out of it on his [01:09:00] way to the
barracks, driving on his way to the barracks. He had left a note on the computer
to a friend of mine here telling her, “I’m on my way to the barracks now. I was by
so-and-so’s house, and we had a good time and blah, blah, blah.” After so many
weeks or months or something, she had invited him over there. And that was it.
Before he left, she gave him something to drink, and that’s all I know.

JJ:

And so, what branch of the service was he in?

GR:

He was in the Air Force in Montana. And he was burned beyond recognition
because his car blew up when he got hit with the log truck. So, what I got was
his bones basically. Well, his body was intact, but you couldn’t see anything. He
was in cellophane wrap. [01:10:00] Then they put the uniform over the -- I

50

�wouldn’t let nobody see him, not even his father. I didn’t want nobody to go
through what I was going through. So, I just remember him like that.
JJ:

So, you wanted your sisters and that to see this and that. What’s the most
important thing you feel that they should know that maybe we’ve forgotten that
we haven’t discussed? What sort of things that we haven’t touched upon yet?

GR:

Whatever we’ve been through in life, we’re sisters. Forgiven and forgotten and
we’ve still got to love each other and help each other out. [01:11:00]

JJ:

So, you relationship with your family is pretty (inaudible)?

GR:

It is, it is. I mean, I still get yelled at like I was 10 by one of them. But she needs
to open her eyes up and see what’s wrong with her. I can’t do that for her.

JJ:

You’re putting this on the tape. You might want to --

GR:

That’s okay.

JJ:

-- let her know that she needs to open her eyes.

GR:

That’s okay. I love the hell out of her. That’s all I can say.

JJ:

Well, I think we’ll finish it up with that, if that’s okay. I appreciate it.

GR:

I thank you.

END OF VIDEO FILE

51

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&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>God and Cosmos
From the sermon series on the Cosmos
Text: Hebrews 11:3
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
November 8, 1981
Transcription of the spoken sermon
By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God…
Hebrews 11: 3
If you had come past my home last evening about 10 o'clock, you might have
thought that I was really desperate, for you would have seen me with my cap and
coat, out on the deck with my telescope, gazing at the moon and surveying the
stars. And you might have figured that, after a week's vacation, having played all
week, at the eleventh hour I was desperately looking for a message in the stars to
bring you. Such would not have been the case, of course, for the message was well
under way by then. But having reflected all week long on the fantastic cosmos of
which we are a part, having already savored the wonder of yesterday - the clear
air, the blue sky, the radiant sun; walking along the beach with its lapping water,
cold and clear as crystal; having seen the magnificent sun slip into the sea in the
West, and then the stars glimmering in the night heavens providing a fit setting
for the silvery brilliance of the moon, I thought to myself, why not get out of the
study and savor it even more? And so, I did. With my telescope, I gazed at the
moon and I located a star or two and thought to myself that it is true O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is thy name in all the earth!... When I
look at thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars
which thou hast established; what is man that thou art mindful of him,
and the son of man that thou dost care for him? Psalm 8: 1, 3, 4 (RSV)
The depth of eternity symbolized in the immensity of space in this vast cosmos of
which we are a part, is but a finger pointing beyond itself to Him Who, in the
beginning, created the heavens and the earth.
I am sure we all identify with the awe, the sense of majesty which is reflected in
this psalm of wonder and praise. I am sure we have all had the experience on a
starry night when the atmosphere was clear as it was last night and the sky
cloudless. We have looked up and we have wondered at it, and then we have

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found peace and comfort in the conviction that this is our Father's world. The
glories of the cosmos are a reflection of the glory of God. For, as the writer to the
Hebrews says in the words of our text taken from the 11th chapter,
By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God.
By faith. It is certainly by faith. It is our conviction that He Who revealed Himself
supremely in the face of Jesus and Whom, through Jesus, we have found to be
gracious, is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. And, believing that, we have
found a home. We know this is our Father's world.
This is the first of a series of messages about God and Cosmos. God and Cosmos,
in that order, because I do believe that God is prior to Cosmos, and Cosmos is the
consequence of the deliberate intention of God to call into being that which was
not. All that is, is because God said, "Let there be." I deal with this right now
because I am currently viewing the television series, the 13-part Cosmos series,
which is written and narrated by Carl Sagan, who must be one of the world's
finest astronomers, and who is, besides being an excellent scientist, an
outstanding communicator. I hope that you have seen some of that series and, if
not, I hope that you will, for it is an amazing production. The photography is
thrilling, the technical aspects of it are superbly handled, and the communication
skills of Carl Sagan are something to behold. As I view that series, it causes me to
look beyond the cosmos to the creator of it all, to experience again what the
psalmist experienced, and to say within my heart, "O Lord, our Lord, how
excellent is Thy name in all the earth."
Carl Sagan would not agree with the psalmist or with you and me that the cosmos
is the consequence of the deliberate, creative act of God. Carl Sagan is an
excellent scientist and an excellent communicator and I acclaim the job that he
has done. I want to go on record as saying that I think it is tremendous that the
depths and the deep secrets of the physical universe are being more and more
unraveled in this wonderful way through this marvelous medium, by this great
communicator. For he is skilled, not only in his understanding of the universe,
but in his ability to make the profound simple. And when he is an astronomer, a
scientist, and when he is setting forth all of that data which is available through
the explosion of knowledge and through the use of instrumentation which is so
sophisticated that it boggles the mind, then I listen intently and I learn.
This past week I spent the week trying to master the book which is the narration
of the video series. It is entitled, Cosmos. It's a very big and beautiful book, and a
very expensive book. I recommend it. When Carl Sagan is a scientist and an
astronomer, I learn a great deal. When he ceases to be an astronomer and a
scientist and becomes a philosopher and a theologian, then he has moved into my
territory and I carry on a dialogue with him. As long as he is talking about
protons and neutrons and quasars and pulsars and galaxies and all of that, then I
am an innocent bystander listening in and learning and eagerly so. When he
becomes a philosopher and a theologian, then I say, "Carl, let's talk about that."

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Now, a scientist has every right to be a theologian and a philosopher, and I
suppose most all of them really are, because all of us finally are. The difficulty
comes when the two are so closely intertwined that one hardly knows whether
this is the result of the data gathered through some radioscope, testing the outer
limits of space, or whether it is the configuration conjured in the mind and heart
of the scientist. When he becomes a philosopher and theologian, then I take
exception to him, because then he would not agree with our Judeo-Christian
tradition, our conviction that all that is, is as a consequence of the Word of God.
He would commit Genesis and the Letter to the Hebrews and the great Psalms to
that great body of myth and fable which is a part of the common human
experience. Every people who have ever lived have had some kind of an
explanation, some kind of a myth which explains why there is anything. And Carl
Sagan would lump our Biblical tradition with all of those religious and semireligious explanations for the fact that there is something rather than nothing. It
is at that point that I would differ with him and call him to account.
He is a materialist. Now, a materialist is one who believes that, finally, everything
can be reduced to matter or energy. Now, you all understand Einstein's Theory of
Relativity, which says that those two are interchangeable, that mass and energy
are interchangeable, that finally, ultimately, the building blocks of reality are very
simply molecules that can be reduced to energy. So a materialist believes that,
finally, you can reduce the whole of reality to energy, electricity if you will, to
chemical reactions, so that the emotions that we feel are the result of chemical
reactions and nerve connections, and so forth. A materialist believes that the
whole of reality and the totality of human experience can be reduced to that
which is material, physical.
Now, in saying that, he has to deal with the fact that you and I are intelligent and
we are conscious. We are self-conscious people. We can reflect back upon
ourselves, we know that we exist, we think about ourselves, for better or worse.
And we have an intelligence. We can communicate. He would say that there may
be intelligent beings in other universes. If there are, we don't know about it. They
haven't signaled us yet, nor have they returned our signal. But, be that as it may,
as far as we are concerned, and after all we can only deal here with planet Earth,
the highest form of the cosmic evolutionary process has resulted in human
intelligence and human consciousness . We are the only beings that know that we
are. We are the only beings with the intelligence and the self-consciousness to
reflect on the cosmic process of which we are a part. And, consequently, if
everything can be reduced down to that point of energy or matter, then human
intelligence and human consciousness and human emotion, likewise, can be
reduced down and be explained in terms of electricity, chemical reaction, etc.
And that would mean, of course, that we are at the top of the ladder. This is as far
as the process has gotten. And that would mean, of course, that there is no higher
rung as yet realized. Who knows what may be up there? One might say that
humans have become godlike. Human existence with its intelligence and

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consciousness is the highest rung of the ladder at this point and, consequently,
with nothing beyond, there can be no one beyond.
A materialist explains the totality of the cosmos in terms of the building blocks of
reality that are reducible in the laboratory. Human intelligence and
consciousness may be praised and affirmed and acclaimed. It is the highest
development of the cosmic process. There is no one beyond. Such is the view of
the materialist. Such a one is a naturalist. He would be a humanist, too, I
suppose.
But you and I believe more than that. As long as Carl Sagan is an astronomer and
a scientist, we learn; we learn with fascination and with eagerness. We marvel at
the ingenuity of the human mind, at the intellectual powers of an Einstein, the
exploratory endeavors of Galileo and Copernicus, Kepler and the whole host of
those who have probed the depths of reality and given us today such an amazing
insight into the cosmic order. It is exciting and fascinating and we ought to affirm
that in the Church.
When Carl Sagan has said everything he has to say, he has not yet dealt with the
religious question. Being a materialist, he has planted his feet squarely within
this cosmos, whereas you and I see the totality of the cosmos as the consequence
of the creative act of One Who transcends the cosmos, Who is not encased within
the system of which we are a part, with our galaxies and our planets and our
stars. We look to One Who is beyond, One Who stands apart from and Who
spoke and called into being that which did not previously exist. By faith, we
believe the worlds were fashioned by the Word of God. That God was, and
nothing else was, and God spoke, and it came to be. That is the affirmation of the
Letter to the Hebrews, the reflection of that first chapter where he sees the
cosmos to the extent that he was able to understand it and he says,
…they will perish, but thou remainest; they will all grow old like a
garment, like a mantle thou wilt roll them up, and they will be changed.
But thou art the same, and thy years will never end. Hebrews 1: 11-12
Or the psalmist who said, "O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is Thy name in all the
earth." When I consider the heavens, the moon, the stars which you have made,
my worship is not offered, as it has been through so many ages of humankind, to
the stars and the moon or the sun or the cosmic order itself, but to the God Who
is apart from it and brought it into being. That is the Biblical tradition. That is the
Judeo-Christian faith. It is our faith.
And so we study the cosmos. As we view such a marvelous presentation as the
television Cosmos series, we are fascinated and we marvel at the wonders, the
complexity and the simplicity of the created order. But we always look beyond,
and then we know this amazing place is our Father's world.

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We have learned a lot through the research of astrophysics. They tell us that 15 to
20 billion years ago this universe was formed. Science, itself, has formulated what
is today the most accepted model of origin - the ''Big Bang." There was a high
concentration of energy and mass, almost a pinpoint. And from that intense
concentration of energy evolved a nuclear explosion that scattered the elements
in every direction, from which explosion we can still, through very delicate
radioscopes, hear the pulsing of radiation. From that Big Bang 15 to 20 billion
years ago, this whole cosmic order of which we are a part emanated. They tell us
that it is still expanding like a balloon. If you blow up a balloon that has polka
dots on it, the polka dots keep getting farther apart, but they remain relatively in
the same position on that sphere. And so, this universe is going outward. They
tell us if there is enough mass within this expanding universe, the force of gravity
will eventually stop the expansion, that it will, in turn, contract so that after the
Big Bang will come the Big Crunch. And then, they tell us, possibly with that Big
Crunch and that high concentration again, there will be another nuclear
explosion that will start the whole process over again.
Does it make any difference to Genesis? Does it make any difference to Hebrews
or to Psalm 8? Not a smidgin, really. For, who knows what God is up to? Who
knows what fantastic things He has in store for this, our planet Earth, which is
just a little speck of dust occupying an instant of time in this dramatic, cosmic,
evolutionary process. But on this little speck of dust, in this instant of time, we
exist, conscious and intelligent, able to reflect on the process and to adore the
God Who is behind it all.
What we have learned about space is so amazing. For example, they talk about
black holes. I wish I understood black holes. In the next life I'm going to conduct
great music. The third life I want to be an astrophysicist. I have never had a
physics course in my life, and I am really out of my element. But, anyway, try to
understand the black holes. Have you ever pulled the plug in a basin of water?
You pull the plug in the sink and the water goes down the drain. If you had good
drainage, the water was pulled down forming a whirlpool over the drain. Well,
they say that where there is a high concentration of energy from the collapse of a
great big star, maybe four or five times bigger than our sun, there is such a
concentration of gravity that it rushes right out of the universe. Like if you had
your hand inside the balloon and pushed it out. That gravity is so great, so
intense, that it doesn't even let the light out, so that you look in the sky and there
is a black hole. (You can't see the black hole where the star was, but you know
that the star was there because there is such a strong emanation of x-rays from
that point that they can tell by the radioscopes that it is there.) It is a tremendous
source of power. Well, even Carl Sagan says that those black holes might be the
shoots that would send us from one universe to another.
I was thinking about the book Life After Life, and all the stories of those who have
edged right up to death and then come back. They talk about that tunnel of light.
Who knows but maybe it's a black hole? It's a black hole from the outside, but

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inside, the light is there, you see. Does it make any difference to Genesis, or
Psalm 8, or the Letter to the Hebrews? Not a bit. The more we learn, the more we
probe, the more we understand, the more wonder, the more sense of awe,
because of the majesty, the mind-boggling nature of the cosmic order.
Our earth, 4.6 billion years old, part of a cosmic evolutionary process 15 to 20
billion years old. They say if you took a few baseballs and scattered them on the
North American continent they would be crowded compared to the stars in space.
And our galaxy, the Milky Way, has four billion stars, and our galaxy is in what
they call the Local Cluster, a relatively small cluster. There are numberless
galaxies. Sagan writes,
We live on a mote of dust circling a humdrum star in the remotest corner
of an obscure galaxy. And if we are a speck in the immensity of space, we
also occupy an instant in the expanse of ages. Cosmos, p. 20f.
Can you begin to take it in? I cannot. But whoever said God wasn't big? And
whoever said God lacked power? By faith, we understand that the worlds were
fashioned by the Word of God, and the more we learn, the more we stand in awe
of One Who stands apart from and creates the heavens and the earth and this
place for you and for me.
When the Bible affirms that God created, it doesn't mean to tell us all of the
scientific details about where everything came from, or the process by which it
arose. The Church too long has used the Bible that way, as a scientific text. And
because of that kind of use of the Bible there has been the unnecessary and tragic
conflict between science and religion. The Bible simply is trying to say that God is
at the beginning and God is at the end, and whatever exists, this cosmic
evolutionary process contains nothing that can be threatening to you and to me,
because God is at the beginning and God is at the end. And when the Bible says
Creation is good, it simply is saying that it is a good place for us to develop and to
grow in the grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. And when it says that God
called into being that which exists from nothing, it is simply affirming that there
is nothing in the cosmic order that can be threatening, because God is sovereign
and Lord over all. That is really all we are saying, but that is to say tremendous
things about our human existence, and the cosmic order of which we are a part.
I am excited about this, because I believe too long in the Church there has been
an atmosphere of fear and an attitude of defensiveness. I grew up being
threatened by science. I grew up fearing every new discovery. I grew up wishing
there would be no more explosion of knowledge, fearing that somehow or other,
the faith and the things that were most dear to me would be exploded by some
new view under a microscope or some distant vista from a telescope.
The Church's history is tragic: Catholic and Protestant. Johann Kepler was
excommunicated by the Lutheran Church in the 17th Century, and Galileo was
put under house arrest the last years of his life by the Roman Church for simply

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affirming what he knew was true, that the earth went around the sun rather than
vice versa. The Church's record is tragic, to be repented of, and the Church too
often continues to react negatively to the increase of knowledge. It stifles creative
thought and experimentation and offends its best spirits and drives out its finest
minds.
I am excited about this, because I believe that we can allow the fresh air,
knowledge and research and investigation to flow through the Church, and then,
if we have faith enough, we can stand with the psalmist and say, "Lord, our Lord,
how excellent is Thy name in all the earth. When I consider the heavens, the
moon and the stars which You have made, then from my heart arises wonder,
love and praise." By faith we believe that the worlds were fashioned by the word
of God, and whatever is out there of which we are a part, whatever its future, and
whatever its past, it is encompassed in the eternal love of God, Who has
manifested Himself as Grace and touched us in the flesh of Jesus. Blessed be His
holy name. Amen.
Father, we revel in the wonder of the Created Order, the mind-boggling
experience of the natural world, and we rejoice in the confidence that we have
that we have a home here, that this is our Father's world, and that you uphold all
things by the power of your word. Receive our adoring worship, through Jesus
Christ, our Lord. Amen.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>God and History: What’s Happening?
Pentecost XXIV
Scripture: Isaiah 65:17-25; I Corinthians 15:20-28
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
November 11, 2001
Transcription of the spoken sermon
There is in your liturgy printed a reading from Carl Sagan, which I am not going
to read in its entirety, but in a paragraph at the end, commenting on Planet Earth
as it is seen from outer space, that little pale blue dot that we have all seen, Carl
Sagan writes,
Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our
obscurity - in all this vastness - there is no hint that help will come from
elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us. It’s been said that
astronomy is a humbling, and I might add, a character-building
experience. To my mind, there is perhaps no better demonstration of the
folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it
underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly and compassionately
with one another and to preserve and cherish that pale blue dot, the only
home we've ever known.
The piece from Carl Sagan to which I referred is a statement that was sent to me
immediately following the events of September 11, and I must admit they
resonated with me more than the pronouncements of preachers and television
evangelists in the immediate wake of that crisis. No help from outside. It's in our
hands, and we are called to kindness and compassion. We see the symbol of that
Planet Earth hanging in outer space, the image that has come to us from that
picture taken from deep space in which we see the reality of that global
community without any divisions or barriers, and we realize that we are on Planet
Earth together. What Sagan says, he says as a scientist, as a great communicator
of the mysteries of science, and also as one who has been rather outspoken in his
denial of the traditional God that we image in the Church traditionally. And yet,
what he says is not so different from what we have been saying here for some
time, and that is that the God "out there," in control, sovereign of history who
directs, governs, moves according to a pre-determined purpose, that that God is
dead. That God doesn't really work for us anymore. Well, at least not for me and
not for some of us. For all for whom it works, that's wonderful. As a matter of
fact, what we know about the cosmic reality of which we are a part and the
© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 2

historical development whose unfolding and in whose unfolding we have
emerged, that God in control just doesn't seem compelling.
Oh, I know. In crisis times we flee to old securities. A couple of old securities to
which this nation has fled in these recent weeks are patriotism and piety.
Patriotism -I won't ask you to raise your hands, but how many of you have flags
on your cars or in your windows or in your shops? A rather natural and normal
kind of response and reaction. After all, the flag stands for something precious
and the flag is identified with this nation and we love this nation, and this nation
has come under attack. And so, the flag is our effort to affirm our love and our
devotion to this nation that has been so richly blessed and a source of such
blessing to us all. But patriotism also has another side to it, another dimension,
and I think some of that enters into our flying of the flag also. Namely, we are the
United States of America and you really ought not to mess with us, and if you do,
you'll get your due, you'll get yours. The flag is perhaps sometimes, on the part of
some, at least, a sign of belligerence and determination not to succumb to those
who would dare attack us.
And then there is piety, of course. The first week or two the pews of the churches
across the nation were filled. Thank God people got over that in a hurry. But, still,
a flight to the piety of the past, to the old securities, to the God in control.
Dear God, at a time like this, don't we long for, don't we wish for a God in
control? A sovereign of the universe, the Lord of history, the one who is guiding it
and directing it and who will bring it all to its consummation? Don't you realize
that the greatest temptation to a preacher at a time like this is to secure you in
that old security? That is a very normal and natural longing, as well. Deep down
in the human being there is that desire for all to be well and for someone to be in
charge and in control, the good and gracious God in charge, the omnipotent one,
almighty God.
There are many who are exploiting that old traditional image of God to give a
kind of security which, frankly, we can't give. It’s not surprising that we should
revert to that or flee to that. After all, our whole biblical tradition conditions us to
look for that kind of a God.
There is that beautiful vision in Isaiah 65, a passage to which I return again and
again, that beautiful picture of shalom, that picture where there is no infant
mortality, where everyone lives to an old age, where one builds a house and lives
in it and plants a garden and eats its produce, where one is able to benefit from
the fruits of one's labor, a world in which lion and lamb lie down together and
there is no hurting, no destroying in all God's holy mountain. It's a wonderful
dream, reflective of something deep in the human heart, reflective of something
that I think we all think should be or could be or maybe will be - that beautiful
harmony throughout nature in history, shalom. Is it any wonder that we who
have been nurtured in the biblical tradition would flee to a God like that in a time

© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 3

of crisis? The God who is judge of all the earth brought Judah into its exile, but
now, as the savior of the world will bring Judah back home and will create a new
heaven and a new earth, making it all right. I want a God like that. I would love a
God like that.
Or, Paul, who was nurtured on that same prophet but who had the encounter
with Jesus Christ, the risen one, knocking him off his horse, that vision that Paul
had that turned him around, that vision of the living Lord whom he believed
would come shortly. In this great chapter on the resurrection Paul not only points
to the resurrection, but in that paragraph I read he gives you the whole scheme as
it is going to unfold very shortly - Jesus Christ risen from the dead, now ascended
in heaven, ruling, putting all enemies and all adversaries down under his feet,
and when he subdues all hostile powers, then he will take that kingdom and yield
it up to the father and God will be God, all in all. Wonderful, wonderful drama.
And Paul thought he was living on the very edge of history where it was about to
transpire and, of course, 2000 years later, you can't take that same vision and
still keep it alive. You just simply have to say Paul didn't understand where he
was in the time line. And yet, you can appreciate what Paul was longing for, what
turned him around, that which made him go to the ends of the earth proclaiming.
It was a consummation, it was the resurrection over the last enemy, death. It was
the subduing of all negative darkness. It was the overcoming of all evil. It was
bringing to that moment when God would be all in all, maybe in different
contours than Isaiah, but the same kind of thing.
It’s really a silly thing when, 2000 years later, a series of books called Left Behind
takes that thing literally and plays it out as though it is about to happen in the
future. Ridiculous. But, I can understand what was in Paul's mind and heart. For
me, rather than Left Behind, I'll take Harry Potter. Because Harry Potter deals
with magic and mystery, and there is something in us that believes that there is
more going on than meets the eye.
If you want a couple of concise statements about what is going on in history,
Jacques Monad, the Noble-winning biologist, in his classic Chance and
Necessity, says if he accepts this negative message in its full significance, "man
must at last wake out of his millenniary dreams and discover his total solitude,
his fundamental isolation. He must realize that, like a gypsy, he lives in the
boundary of an alien world, a world that is deaf to his music and as indifferent to
his hopes as it is to his suffering and to his crimes." Wow!
And Erich Fromm writes in Man For Himself. "There is only one solution to his
problem - to face the truth, to acknowledge his fundamental aloneness in the
universe, indifferent to his fate, to recognize that there is no power transcending
him which can solve his problem for him." Sort of like Sagan saying no outside
help available.
At his inaugural at Cambridge University, G. N. Clark wrote, "There is no secret
and no plan in history to be discovered. I do not believe that any future

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 4

consummation could make sense of all the irrationalities of preceding ages if it
could not explain them, still less could it justify them."
Well, just three voices of contemporary scholarship in the light of the tradition of
faith of which we are a part which would leave us on our own. And to be left on
our own in a time like this is a scary business. There is no wonder that we unfurl
the flag. There's no wonder that we pray fervently to almighty God.
And yet, there is Harry Potter, and there are the fairy tales that we all love, and
what do we love about a fairy tale? Certainly it has its darkness, its demons, its
shadow side. But, the fairy tale also always comes out right. Eventually, the good
prevails and the light prevails.
We love a fairy tale. I think we love a fairy tale because there's something
intuitively in us that believes that the fairy tale is true. There is something in us
that refuses to believe that there is nothing more, that there is simply this cosmic
reality unfolding without mind or purpose or direction. There may not be
someone grinding the gears of the universe up there. I think Sagan is right. There
is no help out there, but there may be something in here. There may be
something enlivening the process, the whole creative unfolding. There may be
that which moves toward light and life. But, it may not win. It may not prevail.
And yet, it will not finally be destroyed.
I think that really is the story of Easter. As you think about this, we would so love
an omnipotent God. We would so love that God Almighty. We so much want God
to be in control and in charge, and yet the very God that we profess, revealed in
the face of Jesus Christ, was revealed in the vulnerability of a child, and we will
celebrate it here in a few weeks. The clue we have of the nature of God is a God
who is incarnate in a child, who was embodied in a human being, a human being
who with grace and love and compassion makes his way, speaking truth to power
until finally he is crucified, and, as he is crucified, he says, "Father, forgive them,
for they know not what they do."
The God we want is a God who is in control. The God who is revealed to us if we
could believe it is the God who is revealed in the vulnerability of love. The only
persuasion is the persuasion of love. There is no coercion. There is no God
Almighty. There is no omnipotent one. There is no one out there to pull the
strings and move it around. What do we pray? What do we mean? What do we
ask for when we say "God bless America?"
It is time for us, of course, to be saying "God bless the world," but to know that
that prayer is seriously offered as a commitment to be the embodiment of
kindness and compassion and care, because there is no help that will come from
the outside. There is only that persistent Spirit, that persistent deity that
pervades, with which reality is pregnant, that calls us again and again and again
to life and to love, and if need be, to sacrifice and to yielding up life.

© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 5

We don't really believe the Gospel. We would hardly dare live according to the
Gospel. It would be a dangerous thing if Jesus were in charge. I don't know if I
would dare vote for him. Because everything would have to be different.
I don't know about what we're doing in Afghanistan. I don't know about the
military action. I really don't. Very early this morning they were talking about bin
Laden on the videotape saying he had nuclear weapons. I'm not wise enough to
know what we are to do in this kind of a situation, but I know this and you know
it too, military might will not solve this crisis. We cannot bomb enough in order
to bring out a good result.
It's no use praying to Almighty God, for the God within us who would move us to
kindness and compassion, to civility and human decency, and to a transformed
earth - that is the only God we have, and the only power that God has is the power
of love. It's a pretty risky business, good friends. It is the temptation of a preacher
to make you secure in the arms of almighty God, but it is the task of the prophet
to tell you that God would move through you to be the arms that would secure the
world
Something is going on. More than meets the eye. Thank God.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>God Beyond All Human Conceiving
From the sermon series on the Book of Job
Job 38:1,4; Job 40:3-4, 6-14; Job 42:8, translated by Stephen Mitchell
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Pentecost XI, August 7, 1994
Transcription of the spoken sermon

"Then	&#13;  the	&#13;  Lord	&#13;  answered	&#13;  Job	&#13;  out	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  whirlwind:...	&#13;  Where	&#13;  were	&#13;  you	&#13;  when	&#13;  I	&#13;  laid	&#13;  the	&#13;  
foundation	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  earth? Job	&#13;  38:1,4	&#13;  
"Then	&#13;  Job	&#13;  answered	&#13;  the	&#13;  Lord:	&#13;  See,	&#13;  I	&#13;  am	&#13;  of	&#13;  small	&#13;  account;	&#13;  what	&#13;  shall	&#13;  I	&#13;  answer	&#13;  you?	&#13;  I	&#13;  lay	&#13;  
my	&#13;  hand	&#13;  on	&#13;  my	&#13;  mouth." Job	&#13;  40:3-­‐4	&#13;  
"Then	&#13;  the	&#13;  Unnameable	&#13;  again	&#13;  spoke	&#13;  to	&#13;  Job	&#13;  from	&#13;  within	&#13;  the	&#13;  whirlwind:	&#13;  Do	&#13;  you	&#13;  dare	&#13;  deny	&#13;  
my	&#13;  judgment?	&#13;  Am	&#13;  I	&#13;  wrong	&#13;  because	&#13;  you	&#13;  are	&#13;  right?	&#13;  
...	&#13;  Dress	&#13;  yourself	&#13;  like	&#13;  an	&#13;  emperor.	&#13;  Climb	&#13;  up	&#13;  onto	&#13;  your	&#13;  throne.	&#13;  Unleash	&#13;  your	&#13;  savage	&#13;  
Justice.	&#13;  Cut	&#13;  down	&#13;  the	&#13;  rich	&#13;  and	&#13;  the	&#13;  mighty.	&#13;  Make	&#13;  the	&#13;  proud	&#13;  man	&#13;  grovel.	&#13;  Pluck	&#13;  the	&#13;  wicked	&#13;  
from	&#13;  their	&#13;  perch.	&#13;  Push	&#13;  them	&#13;  into	&#13;  the	&#13;  grave,	&#13;  Throw	&#13;  them,	&#13;  screaming,	&#13;  to	&#13;  hell.	&#13;  Then	&#13;  I	&#13;  will	&#13;  
admit	&#13;  that	&#13;  your	&#13;  own	&#13;  strength	&#13;  can	&#13;  save	&#13;  you." Job	&#13;  40:6-­‐14	&#13;  
"Then	&#13;  Job	&#13;  said	&#13;  to	&#13;  the	&#13;  Unnameable,..	&#13;  I	&#13;  have	&#13;  spoken	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  unspeakable	&#13;  and	&#13;  tried	&#13;  to	&#13;  
grasp	&#13;  the	&#13;  infinite.	&#13;  Job	&#13;  42:3	&#13;  
	&#13;  
Well, we've got two more shots at Job—if you can bear it. Today in a voice out of
the whirlwind—God shows up. Next week we come back full cycle to the mystery
of suffering, trusting in the darkness. I wish I could preach both sermons back to
back because they really belong together. I'd be willing to do it, if you'd be willing
to sit through it, and be willing to let me take two offerings. (Laughter) I suppose
we had just better stick with two weeks, and you'll have to remember this week
that I don't say everything that needs to be said about this whole issue. I make
these comments to begin with because the voice out of the whirlwind is not a
soothing voice, and the God, revealed in the dramatic images of this whirlwind
experience of Job, is not a kind of comfy, cozy, divine parent. As we talk about the
God out of the whirlwind, don't hear me deny the comforts of religious faith. But
hear me suggest that maybe some of the ideas and conceptions that we have
about God, if we may be like Job, will need to be de-constructed in order that we
may be transformed with a deeper insight and a larger understanding of God.
How then should you listen to this sermon? Well, listen to this sermon as you
ought to listen to every sermon. Don't take it too seriously, but hear it as a
probing of mysteries that lie beyond our comprehension; hear it not as a
dogmatic claim of what is, but rather my best insight— knowing that in my
© Grand Valley State University

	&#13;  

�God Beyond All Human Conceiving

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2	&#13;  

insight cannot be your answer, because your answer must be your answer. If you
were to borrow my answer as your answer, it would crumble in the crunch.
Finally, I must place my feet, and finally you must place your feet too. So, let's
begin.
Note, in the first place, that Job shared the flawed theology of his friends. That
may surprise you, but think about it for a moment. He and his friends really go at
each other, but as a matter of fact they both shared the conventional wisdom, the
orthodox view we've been talking about. Job and his friends knew that God is into
the business of rewarding virtue and punishing sin. And they all agreed that if
one is suffering, then one has sinned, because that's the business of God—
rewarding virtue and punishing, causing suffering for the sinful.
But then Job had a problem because he began to suffer—terribly. And he knew he
was innocent. So, not asking himself whether he had the major premise right, but
rather knowing that he was suffering, and suffering is supposed to be the
consequence of sinning, and knowing that he is innocent he has no alternative
but to accuse God of being unjust. So he rails against heaven. Now, that brought
his friends to the attack, to defend God. But Job wouldn't hear of it. He knew that
he was suffering, and he knew that he was innocent, and therefore he was railing
against heaven. There are moments in that dialogue and discussion when it is
clear that Job still hung on to God, and somehow believed if only he could get his
case heard there was an ultimate justice and truth somewhere. Remember those
moving words:
"Oh, that I knew where I might find him, that I might state my case before
him. I go to the right and God is not there. I go to the left and God is not
there. I go forward, I go backward, God is absent. Oh, that I knew where I
might find God."
Well, God showed up.
In the written piece in the bulletin from William Safire, The First Dissident, I love
his description of God showing up. It is as if in answer to Job's pathetic cry
"Why?" God arrives in a tie-dyed t-shirt on which is emblazoned, "Because I am
God, that's why." Then God begins to speak and there is this panoply of cosmic
wonder in beautiful poetry of all the things that God is about, and the natural
world. Essentially God raises three questions to Job in that first speech: Who are
you? Where were you? Are you able? And Job says, "I am nothing. No, I wasn't
there." And "No, I am not able." But the interesting thing is that the issue that
Job has raised was a question of the suffering of the innocent, and the charge
against God was a charge of injustice.
In that whole first speech there is not one single reference to the real issue. God
simply sweeps the issue aside and overwhelms Job with cosmic management
responsibilities. Thereby, I suppose, the poet is saying what we have said earlier:
that retribution is not God's idea, that retribution is not what God is about, that

© Grand Valley State University

�God Beyond All Human Conceiving

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

rewarding the virtuous and punishing the wicked is not God's business. In this
whirlwind voice, God with a mighty cosmic sweep, doesn't even make a reference
to the real issue of Job's life because it is as though God is saying, "Look, take
care of those things yourself. I am not into reward and punishment."
I remember when my kids were little we had a little Volkswagen "bug" in Europe.
There were three kids; two in the back seat and one in that little rumble seat. The
older two in the back seat were constantly arguing about who had the biggest
half. I got so irritated with those kids I finally took a ballpoint pen and on that
nice white seat I drew a line down the middle. And I said, "Now don't bother me
with that. Take care of that yourselves." Haven't you had your kids come
sometimes and they are fighting among themselves and don't you have to say to
them, "Go settle that yourself, I've got bigger fish to fry." So, I think God doesn't
even make reference to this thing that is so pressing for Job that he says as a
matter of fact, "Look, look what I am into!"
Job says, "Well, that's what I figured. I knew if I ever got a chance to take my case
to you that I would simply be overwhelmed. I know you are bigger than I am. I
never said you weren't, never denied you are really omnipotent, really something.
OK, I'll say no more, but I'll still think the same. You're unfair." At which point
God begins to blow with mighty bombast, this time saying to Job, "In order to
claim your own innocence, you don't have to make me wrong. Go ahead. Make
your case for being innocent. As a matter of fact, I know you are innocent. Go
ahead. Make your claim for being innocent, but don't base that claim on the fact
that I am wrong. Don't accuse me of injustice just because you as an innocent
person are suffering. Do you understand anything at all? Let me tell you what I
am about as creator of heaven and earth, as manager of the cosmos. Do you know
anything about the behemoth, that land monster full of brutality? Have you ever
heard of leviathan, the sea monster whose thrashing, lashing tail makes the sea
like a boiling cauldron?
You see, in the ancient Middle East, all peoples in those cultures shared a
common idea that creation was not something "boom" out of nothing, but rather
that the creator was one who took an existing chaos and was ordering it and
fashioning it into something harmonious and beautiful. "In the beginning God
created the heaven and the earth." And the earth was void and empty and was
chaotic and the Wind, the breath of God, blew all over the stew, forming out of
the chaos cosmos.” You remember in Isaiah 2 that marvelous vision of the wolf
and the lamb lying down together. The wolf and the lamb lying down together,
and no one hurting in all God's holy mountain—that vision of the messianic
kingdom of Shalom, that wonderful energizing vision of what would be when God
got it all together. And the revelation to John on the Isle of Patmos, chapter 21.
You all know it. You have all heard it at every funeral you’ve ever attended "And I
saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the former heaven and earth faded away
and there was no more." What? Shame on you—for lack of courage because I
know you know it. There was no more sea. I love to live on the edge of the sea

© Grand Valley State University

�God Beyond All Human Conceiving

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

with the gentle waves lapping, or the mighty billows breaking. I can't even
imagine the vision of paradise without the sea, but if you had lived in that ancient
culture you would have known that the sea was the source of chaos. That's where
leviathan lived. So that vision of things to come where the wolf and the lamb
would lie down together and they would not hurt or destroy in all God's holy
mountain was a place of a new heaven and a new earth, and there was no more
sea. There was no more threat of chaos. There was no more possibility of the
eruption of evil into God's good order.
But not yet. That's what God is saying in this second speech. "Not yet, Job. I am
doing the best I can. Oh! Why don't you come and play 'God for a Day.' Come on,
Job, get on the throne. Go ahead. If you would act the way you want me to act,
O.K., then do it—crush evil, throw the wicked into hell, get everything lined up
there. That's the way you want me to do it. Is that the way you would want me to
do it? Come on, sit in my place for a day and have absolute power and then see
how you would manage this cosmic reality. Because with heavy totalitarian hand
you would want me to crush the wicked and destroy all evil, then what you would
have me do is to deny the very nature of the reality that I have created ... the
values that I value. You would rule out the possibility then of moral choice and
freedom of spontaneous worship and adoration, of virtue for its own sake. You
would take away that which is intrinsic and central to the fabric of reality as I
have called it forth. You come; you play God. How would you do it?
Oh, yes, Job, I know it’s very much in process. It’s far from perfect. There are the
wicked who prosper and there are the innocent who suffer. Cancer grows on
beautiful young bodies and blood clots form, and loved ones are lost and it hurts .
. . and it’s dark .. . and it’s painful. Human existence is vulnerable and it’s
perilous, and it’s open to terror. Yes, Job, I know. Don't you think I know? But
what would you do, Job, if you could play 'God for a Day?'"
Job said, "I didn't know. .. I didn't know. I am all focused in my own little internal
concerns and issues. I changed my mind. That is, I repent. I take my words back
accusing you of injustice. I don't know. I have spoken things I didn't understand.
I've tried to bring into manageable terms infinite reality. I... I dissolve."
And that was the point of Job's transformation. His issues never got dealt with.
Suddenly he began to think in larger terms with a grander vision, and realized
that he had two alternatives: To remain in an embittered cynicism or to 'Trust
God in the Darkness." Shades of next week.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>God in Human Experience
Trinity Sunday
Text: Ezekiel 37:5-6; Acts 10:38, 44, 48
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
May 29, 1994
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Trinity Sunday is the Sunday that follows the celebration of Pentecost, and rather
naturally so. Just like in the Apostles’ Creed we say, I believe in God. I believe in
Jesus Christ. I believe in the Holy Spirit, but there is no mention of the Trinity or
the doctrine of the Trinity. So in the early Christian experience there was a
Trinitarian experience.
We’ve just been through the whole cycle of the life of Christ, the great events of
Jesus’ birth and life and death and resurrection and exaltation. Then the
celebration of the coming of the Spirit of God, and then, as a Christian
community we worship, we recognize that the God that we worship is the God
who is come to us revealed in Jesus and is with us in the power of the Spirit, the
one true and eternal God, the creator of all, the source of all and the goal of all.
That one true and eternal God is known to us through the lens of Jesus and is
experienced by us in the power of the Spirit.
The experience of that early Jesus movement was a Trinitarian experience. It was
the experience of God in just that way. There was no thought in that early
community that they were leaving the God of Israel. They were not finding
another God. They were not turning away from the God of their fathers and
mothers and going in a new way. They were worshiping none other than the God
of Israel who was the creator of all. They had no consciousness whatsoever that
they were moving their allegiance to another. This was the God of Israel. That’s
why you have throughout the whole of the New Testament scriptures the constant
citation from the Hebrew Scriptures. That’s why, on the Day of Pentecost itself,
Peter stood up and said, “This is that that was spoken by the prophet Job.” This is
what we’ve been waiting for.” They were conscious of a total continuity with the
worship of the God that they had known from their mother’s knees, so to speak,
and to this present experience of that God revealed in Jesus, present with them in
the Spirit. Their experience was a Trinitarian experience.
They had not understood fully, obviously, in the experience with Jesus in the
flesh. The Gospels were written decades later, and they were written on the other
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side of Easter, reflecting back on their experience with Jesus. But it is obvious
they didn’t know what was going on. In fact, the disciples come through as rather
dull. Now they weren’t really dull, but they didn’t know. It wasn’t obvious. It
wasn’t self-evident. It was only in retrospect, and then they reached back to the
Prophet Isaiah, and they took the name of that one who was promised, Immanuel
— God with us. They said, “Jesus was God with us. Jesus was Immanuel.” In
retrospect, reflecting on their experience, they said it was as though God was with
us in this one. Now the day of Pentecost was a mind boggling, life transforming
experience, an ecstatic experience that could not be contained, and they said,
“This is God. This is Jesus. What is this?”
And God said, “That’s right. It is I. I am with you in the flesh, in Jesus, now with
you in the power of the Spirit.” They didn’t put all that together in neat formulas
or write a creed there. They simply witnessed to an overpowering experience of
the one God, the creator of all. “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one.” That was
their God. That was the God they were experiencing, the God they had rubbed
elbows with in Jesus, and whom they now somehow or other knew to be present
in them, a power and a presence that gave them energy and gave them peace,
their experience. That early Jesus movement was a Trinitarian experience. First,
is the experience, that to which they bore witness, and that witness comes
through in the Biblical data.
Let’s think about the Biblical data for a moment, starting in the Hebrew
Scriptures. As we said last week, the Spirit of God was not inaugurated on
Pentecost. Pentecost was a time of the outpouring of the Spirit universally, in a
powerful way. Remember, when we baptize a child here we pray to God to
breathe through the water to make the water an instrument of grace. And we
usually refer to the first verses of the opening chapter of Genesis. “In the
beginning God created the heavens and the earth . . . and it was all void . . . and
the wind of God, or the breath of God, blew over the deep.” Remember? And out
of that chaos came the creation, the cosmos. It was God breathing, because
remember that Hebrew word Ruah, we translate “wind,” we translate it “Spirit,”
we translate it “breath.” It is the same word, but it points to that energizing
creative power of God, to the Spirit of God active in the creation of the heavens
and the earth.
Or the Old Testament prophecy that I read, the wonderful story in Ezekiel. Judah
is in exile and in Babylon; they don’t have a prayer. Their bones are all dried up.
Their hope is gone. And God takes the prophet by the nape of the neck and says,
“Prophesy to those bones, that valley of dried bones.”
“Do you think, prophet, that those dried bones can live?”
The prophet says, “You know, O God.” God says, “Prophesy. Speak the word.”
And the word comes and those bones begin to come together and there is muscle,
and there is flesh, and there is skin, and they stand up. And God says, “Speak

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again.” And they are full of life. A standing army as it were. Reborn, by the Spirit
of God or by the breath of God, or the wind of God.
And Mary, that young Hebrew girl, overshadowed, we are told, by the breath of
God, or the wind of God, or the Spirit of God. And there is a conception, and
there is a child born, and of that one the apostles say, “The word was made flesh
and dwelt among us.”
And Jesus, on the threshold of his ministry, goes into the wilderness and
struggles with who he is and what he is to do and he comes out of that experience
full of the power, the Spirit, the breath, the wind of God so that the life of Jesus is
exercised in consequence of that breath of God blowing through Jesus. So, the
Spirit of God didn’t begin on Pentecost. It’s like the movement we talk about: God
the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but that’s a kind of Christian
prejudice. Actually, if we wanted to be more correct, biblically, we’d say, God,
Spirit, Word. Because it was God breathing that brought about the word made
flesh.
The story of Peter and Cornelius — it’s a wonderful story. I see it as a model for
understanding so much of the New Testament development, and how really we
ourselves ought to be doing theology today. Here’s Peter – remember the vision
on the rooftop – and the call is to go to Cornelius, the Roman Centurion, a
Gentile. Peter struggles a bit, but nonetheless he cannot withstand the power and
the compelling force of that vision. So he goes, and Cornelius is there to greet him
and Peter gingerly steps inside his house, where he shouldn’t even have been
according to his Jewish regulation. Cornelius says he’s had a vision, too, and that
it was the angel of the Lord that told him to beckon Peter. So what can Peter do?
He scratches his head a bit. He starts out by saying, “God is not partial? Whew!
That’s a new one.” Then he begins to tell the story of Jesus.
I think it is so interesting in those verses that we read together that in the 38th
verse it tells how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit, and with
power. Now notice, it’s God who anoints. Remember, anoint is the same word for
Messiah or for Christ. It’s like how God ‘Christed’ Jesus with the Holy Spirit and
power. He tells the story of Jesus, and while he’s preaching would you believe it?
Pfft — God starts heavy breathing. It’s obvious that the Spirit falls on that
congregation.
Now those of you who were here last week (some of you said it was really nice—
once in a while. You know, it’s O.K. once in a while), but I’ve got to tell you last
week’s worship was probably closer to the first Pentecost than today’s worship.
Sure glad that’s over, aren’t you? Sure glad that we’ve moved beyond all that
excess, that enthusiasm. I like it domesticated, a nice routine, where you can
manage it a bit. I mean, after all, this is a worship of God, and one ought to be
respectful and responsible and a little deadpan. One ought not to get involved too
much, because if you get too involved, if you really started feeling the Wind of
God blowing through you, you’d stand up and start hollering and dancing in the

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aisles and singing and shouting. And I wouldn’t know what to do with you.
(Laughter) And we might not be able to get through this service in an hour
(probably won’t anyway). (More laughter) I like it calm. Dignified. Don’t you?
Sure hope God never breathes heavily through this assembly while I’m on the
stool.
Well, that’s what happened. Peter is preaching along and the Holy Spirit falls and
the people start praising God. That’s never happened while I was preaching.
Thank God! (Laughter) It’s so obviously a work of God that Peter says he can’t
withhold water for baptizing these people. So what does he do? He orders them to
be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Well! They were really messed up. Peter
knows this is from God, he sees it as an experience of God, and he invites them to
be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ— Jesus the Christ, Jesus the anointed,
Jesus the Messiah, Jesus, the one filled with the Spirit.
That’s the kind of data you have in the Scriptures. It’s a bit unruly, it’s not neat.
It’s hard to get it into a nice neat formula. It took three hundred twenty-five years
before the Church was able to do that. At the Council of Nicaea they finally put
together a creedal statement which you can still find in your hymnbook, the
Nicean Creed which formulated very carefully in philosophical terms what they
sensed was happening back there. That formula has come down to us today, so
that we still speak of our faith as a Trinitarian Faith. Now the problem is, that
when Peter was preaching in Cornelius’ house, this was as fresh as the present
moment. This was an overpowering experience. They were actually ecstatic, out
of their minds in the adoration of God through that overwhelming experience.
Then the experience got regularized in a doctrine and put together in a creed.
Now people can say the creed and talk about the doctrine, and don’t need the
experience. Then, because there tends often to be a vacuum of experience – that
is, a lack of reality in one’s spiritual life – one begins to hang on words and
phrases as though the reality is the statement of it, when the statement of it is
simply a reflection after the fact. The story of the Church is a story of outliving
its experience, but continuing to reiterate the experience of yesterday.
Let me give you a couple of examples, and we’ll be done. In November of 1993
there was a conference in Minneapolis, St. Paul. It was held under the auspices of
the World Council of Churches, which designated 1988 - 1998 as a decade of
solidarity with women. It was a response to the feminist concerns for an
experience of God that connected with their experience. The Trinitarian
formulation—God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit – is, for many
women in our day, no longer a kind of formula that speaks to them or that they
are able to use in their worship. So the World Council of Church designated a
decade of solidarity with women, during which they are sponsoring several events
that are in the interest of finding new ways to express the understanding of God,
or, simply focusing theological reflection on this question.

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Now, that’s what the Church should be doing every day, every year, every decade.
It should be thinking about its faith so that it is constantly expressing its faith in a
way that connects with its experience. When our expression of faith no longer
connects with our experience, then we enter into fundamentalism.
Fundamentalism is the reiteration of formulas, answers to yesterday’s questions,
today. The thing that we really long for, all of us, is the expression of our faith
that gives witness to our present experience.
Well, this conference was held in November 1993 and a couple of the key players
were the United Presbyterian Church and the United Methodist Church. And, oh
my goodness, are they in trouble! The poor Presbyterians figure that they will lose
2.5 million dollars by the end of 1995 because of irate people who say that this
was some kind of a pagan ritual or festival. The Methodists, they don’t know what
they’re in for yet, but they’re in deep, deep trouble. There is a controversy
brewing across the country. If you read the newspapers and magazines you’ll
probably become aware of this. Ninety-nine percent of the pastors who retreat on
this on Trinity Sunday would lead their congregations to say, “Isn’t that awful.”
You happen to be that privileged group of the 1% where I want to say, what they
were trying to do is perfectly alright, legitimate, necessary, the kind of thing we
ought to be doing all the time, because the last word was not spoken in 325 or 451
AD. We cannot give the finest witness to our present experience of God through
formulations that at one time were at white-heat, the expression of the way God
was experienced then. I use this as an illustration, not to go into the subject of
that re-imagining conference, but to say to you that it is the responsibility of the
body of Christ, always, to be finding the freshest, finest way to worship God in
terms of our present experience. If we simply reiterate yesterday’s formulas and
creeds, we are really bearing witness to a hollowness of experience. And what we
really need is that fresh taste of God today, that fresh experience of God breathing
through us today so that our experience today is interpreted, or is able to be
interpreted, in light of our worship of God and our trust in God.
One other example: In our world, as I have been saying to you for a long time,
religion is the most dangerous force alive. It is that which is fueling much of the
ethnic conflict in the trouble spots around the world. We need to be in dialogue
with our Jewish brothers and sisters, and with our Muslim brothers and sisters.
And, as a matter of fact, our Jewish folk and Islamic folk are clear: God is one. We
should be clear on that too. There is no formulation of the trinity that would
claim anything else. And there is no question, as we saw in the Hebrew
Scriptures, the Spirit of God is understood in Judaism as the creative, energizing
force of God. So, we’ve got two down. That leaves the understanding of Jesus, and
that’s why we’ve been working at it for a year—to understand how in that
conversation we can come to a deeper understanding, recognizing what was
happening back there and what needs to happen now. No one needs to be
worried about that. It is incumbent upon us to do that. Yesterday’s answer won’t
do for today or for tomorrow.

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Theology is the constant challenge of the Church to interpret its faith in the light
of experience, and experience is ongoing. So, on this Trinity Sunday, I want to say
to you it is not enough for us simply to continue to say: God the Father, God the
Son, and God the Holy Spirit. That’s a part of our past. It’s a part of our heritage.
It gives us a guideline and a beacon light. It is within that context that we
continue to think. But, to hold onto it in the light of experience to the contrary, is
idolatry, is an act of faithlessness, is a refusal to trust the present Spirit of God to
lead us into broader horizons and deeper vistas, more of the glory and the wonder
of the one Eternal God whom we see through the lens of Jesus, who we
experience in the power of the Spirit. We need to go back to New Testament data,
take the raw data, allow all of the past to be that which shapes us and forms us,
and then go boldly out into our world with some fresh word.
When was the last time you caught God breathing through you? Friends, it’s time
to let go and experience the freedom of the children of God who are constantly
being led into the future by the God who beckons us, the God who is the source of
all, and the goal of all. God blessed forever.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>God is Easy to Live With
Text: Psalm 103: 13-14
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
August 31, 1986
Transcription of the spoken sermon
As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on all
who fear him. For he knows how we are made, he knows full well that we are
dust. Psalm 103: 13-14

The Psalmist begins this Psalm with a call to his own being to bless the Lord. The
Psalm ends with the same call, now inviting the whole created order and all
created beings to join in the praise of God. The body of the Psalm witnesses to
who God is by pointing to all God does, thus giving the cause for gratitude which
issues in the praise of God.
Psalm 103 is an expression of pure praise. Nothing is requested; no plea or
complaint is expressed. It is simply a paean of praise to the good and gracious
God, a God Who is easy to live with. The psalm flows; it is a spontaneous eruption
of joy at the contemplation of the wonder of God's goodness, compassion and
grace. It is the amazement at the realization of Who God is and what He has done
and continues to do.
Praise is spontaneous. It arises in our hearts; it erupts on our lips; it breaks forth,
irrepressible. The Psalmist calls himself to consciousness of God's mercy; praise
is the result. Praise cannot be coerced; forced, it is not praise.
But we learn from the Psalmist that it is in the contemplation of God in His
saving acts toward us, His mercy and goodness to us, that we put ourselves into
the posture of praise. Let us listen as the Psalmist describes the God Whom he
calls upon his soul to bless.
We bless God because of Who He has shown Himself to be. Old Testament faith
was not speculative and abstract. Rather, the God Whom Israel praises was the
God Who revealed Himself in human experience.
He was the God Who revealed Himself to Moses. That brings to expression the
whole history of redemption in which Israel was called and claimed by God to be
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His people. Israel had a sense of being God's chosen people. In the Exodus event,
God freed their Fathers from Egypt's bondage. He was the God Who led them
through the wilderness and brought them into the promised land. In His
revelation of Himself to Moses, He made Himself known as merciful and
gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
Mercy, grace, steadfast love - what a list of attributes that makes. He was the God
of salvation; He set His people free from the galling slavery that de-humanized
and oppressed. He provided for them, nurtured them and established them in
their own land. Israel's history was a history of salvation of the Mighty God Who
delivered them. In Exodus, as Israel gathered at Mount Sinai and prepared to
receive the Law, these were Moses’ words to them:
You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’
wings and brought you to myself. Now, therefore, if you will obey my
vice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all
peoples…. Exodus 19: 4-5
That beautiful image expresses well Israel's sense of being called and claimed by
God.
But not only in their corporate history, but also in their personal, human
experience, the Old Testament people had a sense of God's grace and mercy. Just
listen to the five verbs of verses 3-5. God pardons, heals, redeems, crowns,
satisfies. Consequently, His people live as renewed persons, kept in the steadfast
love of God.
Expanding on the first blessing mentioned - God's pardoning grace - the Psalmist
gives us one of the most vivid figures of speech found anywhere to describe what
God does with our wrongs. Here is the marvelous surprise: God does not deal
with us as we might expect to be dealt with.
He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor requites us according
to our iniquities.
How often we get things out of focus. We grumble and complain. We are prone to
look on the dark side, feeling we have gotten a bum deal. We luxuriate in self-pity
and whimper while we nurse our wounds and rationalize our poor showing. But
the reality is far different! God does not deal with us as we deserve.
C.S. Lewis, in The Great Divorce, tells of a busload of folk from the grey, misty
flats of purgatory who take a bus excursion to the borders of heaven to see if they
might desire permanent residence there. One of the "tourists" meets a man
known to him on earth who was tried and executed for committing a murder. The
man is now a citizen of heaven. The visitor is amazed to find the murderer there.
He cries out, "What I'd like to understand is what you're here for, as pleased as

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Punch, you a murderer, while I've been walking the streets down there and living
in a place like a pigsty all these years."
The citizen of heaven tries to explain that he had been forgiven the crime and that
both he, the murderer, and the man he murdered had been reconciled at the
judgment seat of God. But the "spirit" from purgatory would have none of it. It
was unjust, unfair! He keeps protesting that it is not right, and all he demands is
his rights.
"I've got to have my rights, same as you, see!"
"Oh, no," the citizen of heaven assures him, "It's not as bad as that. I
haven't got my rights, or I should not be here. You will not get yours,
either. You will get something far better."
Thank God we do not get our rights. Thank God justice is not done. Thank God
His grace is greater than all our sin.
Will Campbell learned the heart of the Gospel the hard way one day. It was
during the days of great tension and ugliness of the Civil Rights Movement in the
South. A young seminarian and a black man were gunned down in cold blood by
a Southern sheriff. Will and his brother were with a friend who would have
nothing to do with the Gospel, when they heard the news. The friend put Will,
himself a minister of the Gospel, on the spot. In effect, he said, "What will your
God do about such an outrage? Can that sheriff be forgiven?" Will, his own heart
broken and full of anguish, knew this was the acid test. Did he believe the Gospel?
He answered, "Yes."
So, the murdered and the murderer are alike loved by God?
Yes. Then, what is this Gospel of yours? We are all bastards and God loves
us anyway?
"Yes," Will replied.
That is the scandalous Gospel we believe.
He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor requite us according
to our iniquities.
This is the testimony of the whole of Scripture.
He blots out our sins as a thick cloud. He casts them behind His back. He buries
our sins in the depths of the sea. He remembers them against us no more.
We remember our sins. We remember the sins of our neighbors. We nurse them,
fume and fuss about them, burden ourselves with them, wallow in them.

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But, God puts them away - forever.
No wonder the Psalmist said,
Bless the Lord, O my soul!
How does He deal with us? With compassion! Like a parent deals with a child.
But no earthly parent begins to realize the magnitude of God's compassion. The
best of human parenting is only a faint reflection of the parental love of God. It
gives us an image we can grasp and begin to understand. But God's Fatherly
compassion surpasses our best insight and understanding.
The Psalmist calls us to bless the Lord because of the way He loves us – human as
we are.
He knows how we were made.
He knows full well that we are dust.
Here is not only a beautiful statement about God, but here, too, is the charter of
our humanness. In the Scriptures we find surprisingly that it is all right to be
human. Does not this statement reflect the Psalmist's understanding that God
loves us and accepts us in our very humanness?
The Bible celebrates that humanness. In the eighth Psalm we read of both our
smallness when compared with the cosmos and our greatness in that we were
created a little less than God. In this Psalm we sense that the Psalmist believed
that God fully understands us in our humanness.
We are not God. We are not angels. We are human.
To be human is to be finite, limited. To be human is to have to choose, to decide,
to act on limited knowledge and insight. To be human is to struggle to find the
balance between freedom and responsibility. To be human is to be part of the
created order of the earth and to feel the tug of that which connects us to the
earth and to be created in the image of God, made for and called to fellowship
with God. To be human is to be a person in process, a pilgrim, a struggler.
We have not allowed ourselves to be very comfortable in the Church being
human. We do get down on ourselves. We condemn ourselves and we are harder
on ourselves than anyone else and we are harder on ourselves than God is.
Somehow we've gotten the message that it is not all right to be human. We just do
not measure up.
In the Church - in religion in general - there is a large measure of moralism.
There is a strong stress on the "ought." There is the threat and warning about our
shortcomings, the constant call to do more, to do better. There is that constant

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pressure to perform and there is the equally constant sense of falling short. The
"message" seems to be that it is not "OK" to be human.
Dr. J. Harold Ellens gave a paper to a Christian Psychological Association some
years ago in which he addressed the relationship of worship and emotional
health. The whole paper is full of insight and greatly impressed me when first I
read it. On our present focus, Ellens writes:
Worship is the celebration of a feat accomplished and being realized. That
fact is the historical datum certifying that God was uniquely in Jesus of
Nazareth "reconciling the world unto Himself." The celebration of worship
is the act and experience of taking profound and grateful account of God's
demonstrated nature and behaviour: He is for us, not against us.
Humans natively envision God as a threat. …It may well be that man's
native view of God as a threat derives from the natural state of anxiety
which seems to be coincident with self-consciousness. …Worship as the
celebration of God's grace addresses itself essentially to human anxiety
regarding God, self, and one's world of relationships. This follows directly
from the fact that the Christian "good news" is the announcement of man's
freedom from those threats - freedom to be and become oneself.
The purpose of worship, then, is the achievement of emotional health and
spiritual wholeness in the form of relief from destructive anxiety by
means of the celebration of God's grace.
Ellens stresses the fact that worship either incites and embodies experiences of
forgiveness, acceptance and a desirable destiny, or enforces guilt, shame and
bondage. Worship either frees or sickens. Speaking directly to the point I am
making in this message, Ellens writes:
The process of worship must provide a comfortable and safe arena for
humans to deal with their real inadequacy to the responsibilities of life
and the challenges of godliness, as well as their sense of inadequacy as
humans. The two are usually quite different and the difference is often the
dimension of man's dishonesty, self-deception and pathology including
psychic conflict. Worship must provide opportunity and necessity for
humans to face their real humanness without employing the typical
pathological techniques of self-deception, deception of the community, or
mechanisms of escape. Typical worship encourages rather than prevents
such pathologies. However, when worship fails to lead people out of them,
it cannot be healing. Where deception of self or the community is
necessary or possible, freedom in God's grace is impossible. That is the
setting for emotional illness, not health.
Ellens continues:

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Worship must provide such humans with the strength and safety to face
the crushing reality of our personal and communal potential for
envisioning sainthood, on the one hand, and our inability to produce
sainthood on the other. It is not a new insight that man is at war with his
self. It would be a new experience if worship consistently resolved that
conflict in the peace of grace. ... To achieve a healing emotional response,
liturgy must provide for honest, relief-affording resolution of the anxiety
and ego-insult inevitable to our internal conflicts. This requires aiding
persons, through worship, to realize and act out the fact that it is
acceptable to be human and sinful. Worship must aid persons and the
community to realize on the emotional level that that acceptability is
precisely what divine grace and Christian graciousness means.
There is much more that could be said on this point, but this is enough to indicate
how in worship we should experience the Psalmist's insight that God knows how
we are made, knows we are "dust" or "clay" – people in conflict, full of anxiety,
loaded with guilt and a sense of inadequacy, needing the good news of an
unconditional love and total acceptance of the God Who knows it all better than
we do and has already handled our dilemma in the gift of Jesus and the grace
which there came to expression. He meets our guilt with forgiving grace, our
inadequacy with the total adequacy of Jesus, our weakness with the strength He
provides, and calls us simply to trust Him that it is so and to rest in the abyss of
His love.
To catch a glimpse of such a God and such a redemption is simply to praise,
spontaneously, irrepressibly. The Psalmist calls his soul to reflect on this good
and gracious God and then he knows praise will flow.
Praise cannot be coerced. C.S. Lewis was at first put off by all the calls, "Praise
God," when first he became a Christian, until he came to realize that praise was
simply the overflow of the enjoyment of the object of praise – in this case, the
enjoyment of God. When we read a great novel or experience a great concert or
see a beautiful sunset, we want to tell somebody about it. The fun of a good joke is
sharing it.
So is the praise of God. Lewis says praise is "inner health made audible." I'm sure
he is right. Show me a person full of praise and I will show you a person healthy
and happy.
Some of us are praisers.
Some of us are simply "chronic grumps." Again, praise cannot be coerced; either
it is "felt" and thus will be expressed, or we remain numb and dumb. But we need
not be fatalists, simply resigning ourselves to being "grumps," going through life
groveling in the mire when we could soar with eagles. We can talk to ourselves;
we can take ourselves in hand as did the Psalmist. We can become conscious of

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the chronic posture of our souls and we can become self-conscious, reflecting on
patterns that may be deeply ingrained.
Rather than viewing a magnificent sunset and grumbling, "Well, another day
shot," we can bask in a few moments of beauty. We can sense the cool, crispness
of the autumn morning and remember this is our Father's world. We can feel the
smooth softness of a newborn's cheek and revel in the wonder of a child. We can
call upon ourselves to become conscious of the very gift of life and the resources
for facing even the most difficult circumstances. We cannot contemplate the God
Who "pardons, heals, redeems, crowns and satisfies" and not sense within the
upsurge of emotion that finds expression in praise. Then with all creation and all
the angels of heaven we can bless the Lord and experience the wellbeing of His
grace and goodness, the God Who is easy to live with.
Amen.

© Grand Valley State University

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God Language: The Deeper Issue
Article by
Colette Volkema DeNooyer
Minister of Faith Development
and
Richard A. Rhem
Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Published in
Perspectives
A Journal of Reformed Thought
March 1993, pp. 18-21
A decade ago, in the early 1980s, Richard Rhem preached a sermon entitled “The
Gender of God: The Humanness of Jesus.” The message brought that day pointed
to the wonder of the incarnation being not that God had visited us in male flesh
but that God had “pitched a tent” in human flesh. Then in 1986, in this journal,
Rhem developed that theme further in an article entitled “The Accident of the
Incarnation” using accident in its philosophical sense of not belonging to the
essence of the matter. Never in the decade of the eighties was there a ripple of
consternation from the Christ Community congregation. That the incarnation
transcended human gender differentiation seemed apparent to all. That God was
not choosing maleness over against femaleness in this revelatory act appeared to
stand uncontested.
Then in the Epiphany season of 1992, we determined as a ministry team that the
community’s commonly held biblical-theological understanding should find
bolder and more obvious expression in both our worship experience and our
liturgical forms. We had been sensitive to sexist language—using masculine
pronouns less and less in prayers, sermons, and hymnody, publishing in bulletins
our intention to be an inclusive community. But on a fateful Sunday morning in
January we proposed that the community join us in addressing God as “Our
Mother/Father who art in heaven...” The reaction from a vocal few was
immediate and sharp. We had touched a nerve and discovered that many had not
truly understood the implications of our earlier theological conclusions.
We had been naive. A good friend, learning of the rumble we had caused and our
dismay, chided us gently for failing to see that a little tinkering with language was

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hardly sufficient to get at the larger issue of male domination in the church,
reinforced perhaps by sexist language but hardly caused by it. He wrote,
True, we need to change our language. But I am not as hopeful as you
seem to be about language changes constructing a new social reality. An
emergent reality (a true novum) will forge its own language (as has always
happened, from the emergence of Christianity to Marxism), but I am not
sure, especially in our age when we play fast and loose with words, that a
reformation in language will bring a reformulation of social reality.
Rescripting the present “paradigm” merely relieves points of potential
rupture and allows the old story to continue.
He was alerting us to the painful reality that little real change happens until there
is a reduction to chaos. He cites Simone Weil who wrote of the necessity of
“decreation.” His final shot was a suggestion that we fully engage the issue, for it
might just be time for us all “to chaoticize, deconstruct, decreate.”
After such a cogent puncturing of our noble project we were forced to plunge
more deeply into the relationship of language and social reality. Our friend is
quite right; we are dealing with a paradigm shift of major proportion. In
Speaking the Christian God, Janet Martin Soskice cites Rosemary Radford
Ruether making the point sharply:
We cannot simply add the “mothering” to the “fathering” God, while
preserving the same hierarchical patterns of male activity and female
passivity. To vindicate the “feminine” in this form is merely to make God
the sanctioner of patriarchy in a new form. (“The Female Nature of God,”
Speaking the Christian God, 66)
Soskice adds,
Similarly, tinkering with the language of the liturgy, changing “he” to “he
and she,” may be a cosmetic change which, from the feminists’ point of
view, conceals a more profound and idolatrous teaching to pray to a male
God. (Speaking the Christian God, 86)
What this foray into language has revealed is the critical challenge that feminist
theology throws out to the classical Trinitarian and Christological creedal
formulations that came to expression in the philosophical language and
conceptuality of the first five centuries of church history. Such an expression was
a proper and necessary translation of the life and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
and the experience of the apostolic community, but it was a culturally
conditioned translation fully as much as any contemporary theological
formulation in the post-modem paradigm (e.g., liberation, black, or feminist
theology).

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Hans Küng contends that, ironically, it was Karl Barth who inaugurated the postmodern paradigm that is so explicitly grounded in human experience (the
experience of suffering and oppression). Barth had turned sharply from
experience as the ground for knowledge of God. His particular target was
Schleiermacher, who grounded faith in God in the “feeling of absolute
dependence.” Barth found the Protestant liberalism of the nineteenth century so
in tune with European culture that there was no word of judgment or grace to
address to the social chaos in the aftermath of the First World War. In his
struggle to find a word for preaching, he wrestled with Paul’s “Letter to the
Romans.” He found there the God who is “Wholly Other.” His conviction about
the deceitfulness of human experience was confirmed when he witnessed his esteemed professors of theology sign on with Hitler’s National Socialism, the
movement that led to the Second World War and the horrors of the Holocaust.
His whole great theological project was posited on the conviction that only God
reveals God; knowledge of God is the gift of God effected by the miracle of the
Holy Spirit. Against Brunner he denied that there is anything in the human
person that provides a “point of contact” for divine revelation.
Such a radical position drew criticism. Bonhoeffer spoke of Barth’s theology as a
“house without doors.” There was no way to get in if one were not already in.
Bonhoeffer called it “Revelational Positivism.” Paradoxically, from the
perspective of the present it is evident that Barth’s theology did not arise apart
from his own personal, existential experience; it was precisely in reaction to that
experience that his theology took shape!
After Barth turned the tide of European theology in the first half of this century,
the pendulum began to swing back to the pole of experience. In the revision of his
Christian Faith (1985), Hendrikus Berkhof added one entirely new section—
paragraph ten—entitled “Revelation and Experience.” The place of experience
also played a considerable role in his Introduction to the Study of Dogmatics
(1982). He points to some theologians through the centuries who have a special
gift for sensing shifts taking place in a given culture and in human perception—
people like Augustine, Luther, Wesley, Barth, and Küng, who experience
existence very differently from previous generations. In such instances new
experience calls forth a new language of faith. In former times such prophetic
voices have been labeled heretical. But today there is a growing recognition and
acceptance of a plurality of faith formulations. For, as Berkhof writes, “someone
may be so driven by a series of experiences that his personal faith and theology
affect the very nerve of the tradition of faith.” He speaks of “ahead-of-the-pack”
thinking arising in recent decades from unexpected sources:
The unheard-of phenomenon of groups of believers, previously not at all
part of the dogmatic process, who began to intervene in it. Pacesetting
dogmaticians ... giving expression to the faith in a way that was hardly
recognizable to those who had learned to read the Bible from the
perspective of a very different set of experiences… In their best works they

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give evidence of new discoveries made in Scripture. To the “official” practitioners of dogmatics they pose the question of what unconscious
conditioning factors have had their distorting or inspiring effect on them.
(26)
We have come to recognize that it is not enough to refer to Scripture, the creedal
tradition, and the transconfessional dimensions of ecumenicity “as the funding
sources of dogmatics.” This becomes evident when these are held in common, yet
opposite experiences may make our respective interpretations of the gospel
mutually unintelligible.
This is, of course, the flash point of contemporary controversy. Berkhof raises the
question, “[I]s it our duty radically to exclude the factor of our life experiences?”
But he then further asks, “Who can jump over his own shadow?” Of course we
cannot. The call for contextual theology has simply made us aware of our own
contextuality—the fact that no theology arises out of a cultural vacuum devoid of
experience.
In reference to the claims of Third World theologians and First World feminist
theologians for whom experience is the key to theological understanding, Berkhof
contends,
We cannot cancel out their bewilderment by proclaiming: “Not what we
say is important but what the Scripture says” or the question is, “Who is
Christ himself?” All our central words such as “salvation,” “Christ,”
“Church,” and “Scripture,” have a much more contextual shape and focus
than we are aware of. (71-72)
Rosemary Radford Ruether in her seminal work, Sexism and God-Talk (1983),
asserts:
What have been called the objective sources of theology; scripture and
tradition are themselves codified collective human experience.
She further declares:
Human experience is the starting point and the ending point of the
hermeneutical circle. Codified tradition both reaches back to roots in
experience and is constantly renewed or discarded through the test of
experience. “Experience” includes experience of the divine, experience of
oneself, and experience of the community and the world, in an interacting
dialectic. Received symbols, formulas, and laws are either authenticated or
not through their ability to illuminate and interpret experience. Systems of
authority try to reverse this relation and make received symbols dictate
what can be experienced as well as the interpretation of that which is
experienced. In reality, the relation is the opposite. If a symbol does not

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speak authentically to experience, it becomes dead or must be altered to
provide a new meaning. (12-13)
What the feminists have uncovered is the sociology of theological knowledge
putting the lie to the claim that its ground is an objective, divine, and universal
authority apart from human experience.
Here, of course, we arrive at a watershed of understanding. With our present
knowledge of the development of dogma, our knowledge of that process in the
early centuries of creedal formulation with the intervention of emperors and the
political motivation of popes and patriarchs, one can hardly deny an historically
conditioned understanding of all theological formulation. In Theology for the
Third Millennium, Hans Küng reminds us that new prophetic traditions are not
born in a cultural vacuum. New paradigms, while incorporating the truth of the
old paradigm, break through with new revelatory insight. Then at some point in
the process this new insight comes under the control of leaders who
institutionalize the inaugurating vision. A series of criteria are imposed to
determine the correct interpretive line, and soon the new paradigm begins to
ossify.
If, however, present experience is sidelined or denied a place in the continued
development of theological understanding, those for whom the symbols no longer
illumine their experience of being human may well drop out, abandoning the
faith of their foremothers and forefathers. Janet Soskice asks, “Does the ‘father
God’ have a future?” She answers:
If Christianity has a future, then the answer is probably “yes.” But it would
be reasonable for a dispassionate student of religions to wonder whether
Christianity will survive the rapid changes taking place—around the world,
not just in the privileged West—in women’s self-understanding. In my
opinion, Christianity now faces a serious challenge, and one that addresses
core metaphors, narratives, and ideologies. ... It may be that Christianity
will not meet the challenge or will linger on as a pleasing anachronism
distant from the life of the cultures it inhabits. You may well think we are
watching yet another stage in the death throes of a dinosaur. (Speaking
the Christian God, 94)
Christian faith need not die unless we cling to symbols and forms that no longer
mediate the truth in compelling fashion, idolizing the medium and confusing it
for the message itself. In his journal, Morning Light, Jean Sulivan writes,
Your certitudes—are you so blind? What are they generally based on? The
failure to deepen your knowledge. We rush past questions in order to
avoid anxiety....
Some weep for the certitudes of the past. We must preserve, they say, this
or that which was beautiful and good. Perhaps that’s true, but those who

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complain like that are weeping for themselves. In the last analysis, we
shouldn’t weep but create. Gothic churches were built over Romanesque
structures, which were built over pagan fountains and temples. To create is
the only important thing, to rediscover the fervor that produced the thing
you’re weeping for. (123-24)
The legitimate place of experience in theological formulations given voice by
Küng, Berkhof, Ruether, and Sulivan among others seems to us beyond refute.
But refuted it is. An example is Speaking the Christian God, subtitle: “The Holy
Trinity and the Challenge of Feminism,” eighteen essays addressing the question
of the use of Father as a designation for God. Covering the spectrum from
moderate to strident, the necessity of the Father designation is defended as the
sine qua non of classical, Western, Trinitarian theology, indeed of Christian faith.
This is an excellent collection of essays for identifying that the stakes in the
feminist challenge run deeper than a superficial adjustment of pronouns. What is
maintained almost uniformly throughout from various perspectives—language
theory, worship, as well as creedal formulation—is that feminist claims must be
denied because they undercut cherished creedal paradigms as well as a
traditional orthodox reading of Scripture. Without the slightest apology or
concession for possible human fallibility, the opinions of Church Fathers and
early Christian councils are cited as pronouncements of eternal and divine truth.
Present experience of ecumenical councils, popes, bishops and church leaders
would seem to alert us to the ever-present political and personal agendas that dog
very human leaders. Our contemporary understanding of parliamentary
procedures and authorized committee reports should caution us that as Ernest
Campbell has noted, “There was a lot of good stuff left on the cutting room floor!”
Many of the writers in Speaking the Christian God seem to forget that the
distance of centuries removes us from the passionate conviction of the
opposition’s arguments as well as votes that at times were almost too close to call.
That is precisely the claim of Reuther. And her exegetical work is impressive. It is
remarkable that the appeal for preserving the Father designation in Christian
usage in Speaking the Christian God is replete with references to the writings of
the Church Fathers and the ecumenical councils but wrestles little with biblical
material. The defenders of the classic creedal formulations have not gone back far
enough! In absolutizing the formulations of the post-apostolic period when the
gospel moved out into a Hellenistic world, the writers in Speaking the Christian
God attribute an authority to those formulations that failed to recognize that
these were already translations of the revelatory events. These formulations
pulsated with passionate human experience in a cultural context that supplied
the linguistic and philosophical tools by which to bring that experience to
expression. But the experience of the post-apostolic age is hardly ours, and the
language and philosophical conceptuality are alien to us on the threshold of the
third millennium.

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Stephen M. Smith in “Worldview, Language, and Radical Feminism: An
Evangelical Appraisal,” (one of the essays in Speaking the Christian God) writes
that we live in a time of massive cultural conflict. This conflict, he says, “is in
reality a clash of worldviews.” Right! And is it not about time? There was no
significant threat to the philosophical worldview within which the classic creedal
formulation came to expression until the eighteenth century. But consider what
has happened since. Not only have there been revolutionary breakthroughs in our
understanding of the physical universe, but even more significant for our present
focus, the rise of historical thinking has illumined the process of development of
human understanding.
Could it be that the classic paradigms, once the Spirit’s medium for the revealing
of the living God, must be dismantled to make room for a new paradigm that
takes up the truth of the old but makes space for the emergence of the new?
One theologian who is seeking to bring to expression a new understanding of God
in light of contemporary experience is Sallie McFague. She receives sharp
criticism from Smith for holding a monist world view, which she acknowledges,
but in the sense of panentheism, which The Oxford Dictionary of the Christum
Church defines as “the belief that the Being of God includes and penetrates the
whole universe, so that every part of it exists in him, but (as against pantheism)
that his Being is more than, and is not exhausted by, the universe.”
The issue must not be whether McFague challenges and undercuts the orthodox
world view, but whether or not her models of God are able to illumine more adequately our present human experience as she wrestles with the biblical story and
the revelation that was en-fleshed in Jesus. In her probings, McFague is engaged
in the very process that is the responsibility of every serious theologian—testing
the received tradition and bringing it to fresh expression. Otherwise dogmatics
becomes fundamentalist, the mere reiteration of formulations that illumined
yesterday’s experiences, and that is idolatry.
A much more sympathetic reading of McFague comes from James Fowler who
writes,
She ... makes clear that we require new metaphors if our faith is to enable
us to make sense of our contemporary experiences.... In our religious
language we are naming ourselves, one another, our world, and our
relatedness to God in terms from bygone times. Such anachronistic names,
helpful in earlier times, are distorting and hurtful now. (Weaving the New
Creation, 61)
Brian Wren, a minister in the Reformed Church of England is well known as a
writer of meaningful contemporary hymnody. In his book What Language Shall I
Borrow? he addresses the concerns and issues that motivated him to write such
hymns as “Bring Many Names,” in which he expands our language horizons by
referring to God as:

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Strong mother God, working night and day,
Planning all the wonders of creation...
Warm father God, hugging every child,
feeling all the strains of human living...
Old aching God, grey with endless care,
calmly piercing evil’s new disguises...
Young, growing God, eager, on the move,
seeing all, and fretting at our blindness ...
Great, living God, never fully known,
joyful darkness far beyond our seeing ...
The poem that opens What Language Shall I Borrow? a poem written by Wren,
sums up his understanding that language can be one step in the process of freeing
ourselves from idolatrous attachment to earlier faith expressions.
The Main Question
If
every naming of God
is a borrowing from human experience,
And if
language slants and angles
our thinking and behavior;
And if
our society
makes qualities labeled “feminine”
inferior to qualities labeled “masculine,”
forming women and men
with identities steeped in those labelings,
in structures where men are still dominant
though shaken
and women still subordinate
though seeking emancipation...
Then it follows that
using only male language
(“he,” “king,” “father”)
to name and praise God
powerfully affects our encounter with God
and our thinking and behavior;
So that we must then ask

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whether male dominance and female subordination
and seeking God only in male terms
are God’s intention
or human distortion and sin;
For if
these things are indeed
a deep distortion and sin,
So that
women and men are called to repent together
from domination and subordination,
Then how
can we name and praise God
in ways less idolatrous,
more freeing,
and more true
to the Triune God
and the direction of love
in the Anointed One, Jesus?
His prolific production of hymns for worship is his answer to “The Main
Question.” And that brings us back to where we began. The letter from our friend
is full of profound insight—a little cosmetic tinkering with the language of
worship is not enough. We have to do with a far more profound issue, indeed,
with the necessity of a whole new paradigm for our speaking of God. And that will
probably come about only through chaos and decreation. But in the meantime it
is not unimportant to watch our language as a sign that the Christian community
is honestly listening for the ways in which God may be coming to us through the
voices of experience.
References:
Henrikus Berkhof. Introduction to the Study of Dogmatics. Wm. B. Eerdmans
Publishing Co., 1985.
Rosemary Radford Ruether. Sexism and God-Talk: Toward a Feminist
Theology. Beacon Press, 0010 Anniversary edition, 1993.
Janet Martin Soskice, “The Female Nature of God” in Speaking the Christian
God: Holy Trinity and the Challenge of Feminism. (Editor Alvin F. Kimel).
William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., first edition, 1992.
Brian Wren. What Language Shall I Borrow?: God-Talk in Worship: A Male
Response to Feminist Theology. First published 1989; Wipf &amp; Stock Pub., 2009.

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                    <text>God Loves People: To Be Human is Enough
Text: Psalm 103:14; Romans 5:8
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Pentecost XVIII, October 11, 1992
Transcription of the spoken sermon
For God knows how we were made; God remembers that we are dust. Psalm 103:14
But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ dies for us.
Romans 5:8

“God Loves People: To Be Human is Enough,” but it has been rather difficult for
the Church to be honest with that fact because the Church is also looked to as
kind of the ethical guru of society, the conservative glue to hold things together,
and to keep things on the straight and narrow and to address that which is wrong
with people and society.
So I think there has been a tension within the Church and the preaching in its
message, afraid that if it was too warm an embrace of the sinner that it might
appear to be condoning of such behavior and, therefore, there is this distancing
and this body language that causes the Church to withdraw just a bit.
In the Church we have sort of kept that illusion alive that there are some good
folk, and some not quite so good. The Church tends to become a society of the
righteous because we do want to keep up our public image, particularly at church.
And so we keep the vestments on or the mask intact, or the facade up so that it
never really comes to full expression and public demonstration. But if you scratch
us, I think you will find we are all pretty much the same. So there has been a
tension, I think, in the open embrace of the persons who have fallen flat on their
faces and gotten muddied and tarnished in the process of living. But, as a matter
of fact, to the extent that we do withdraw or withhold, or keep at arms length any
person in any condition, we are going contrary to the biblical message.
The biblical message is very clear “That God loves People, and to be Human is
Enough.” To be human is to be a person filled with anxiety and torn with tension.
That’s simply endemic to our human situation. I love Psalm 103, verses 13 and 14,
the expression of the Grace of God that grants us forgiveness, and the affirmation
of the compassion of God that understands us thoroughly and loves us anyway.
© Grand Valley State University

	&#13;  

�God Loves People: To Be Human is Enough

Richard A. Rhem

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“God knows our frame. God remembers that we are dust. For God knows how we
are formed. God remembers that we are clay.” The Psalmist, I suspect, is
informed by that wonderful image in that second chapter of Genesis: the creator,
the potter who scoops a handful of mud and shapes a human being and breathes
into that human form the breath of life, creating a living soul. In the biblical
account of creation, in the Hebrew understanding of the human person, we are
linked to the earth. We are a part of this created order. We are of the earth earthy. We speak of ourselves sometimes as “earthlings.”
That play on words conveys a truth. At a funeral yesterday at the committal I
said, “Earth to earth, dust to dust, ashes to ashes.” In the face of the reality of
death, there is our recognition that we are not only shaped of the elements, the
primal elements, that are a part of the cosmos, but we ourselves are finally
dissolved again into those elements. We are of the earth. Sometimes putting
ourselves down, we say we feel “cloddy.” Or looking judgmentally at another we
may say, “Oh, he’s a clod, or she’s a clod.” Well, there is a bit of reality in that, for
we are clods. But that is not all we are. Berkhof, in The Christian Faith, says there
is a gravitational pull on us because, though we are a part of the earth, there is
also that beckoning call from above. So, we are creatures who live in two worlds.
We are part of the earth and part of that spiritual reality of God and the call of
God to be in communion with God’s spirit. Harold Ellens in an article a few years
ago in Perspectives pictured the human person as full of anxiety, which he
identifies not as a consequence of our sin, but as a consequence of being human.
He calls it “a generic anxiety.” It is not something that we have encumbered
ourselves with because of concrete behavior, but something that simply dwells in
us because we are human. He pictures vividly the fetus coming to maturity in the
fullness of time, bumping and splashing down the birth canal, being brought into
an alien environment, scared to death. And that, he says, characterizes us not
only at the moment of our birth but throughout all our lives. We are more often
scared to death than we are gargantuan villains of revolt and rebellion. We are
not very heroic sinners, really. I suppose that’s why God’s first reaction to us is
one of compassion.
I think that an honest biblical understanding of the human person should enable
us to do what Dr. Kurtz said a moment ago, to listen more sensitively and to
speak more compassionately. It should enable us to be compassionate with
people, and to be compassionate with one’s self. It’s not easy to be human. To be
human is to have a generic anxiety - a given with one’s humanity. There is a
fragility - a vulnerability in being human. There is the limited nature of our
human existence, the fact that we are always called to make judgments and make
decisions on the basis of limited knowledge and insight. We have to decide about
things for which we don’t have sufficient data. And we are unable to extricate
ourselves for a moment from this human scene in order that we might get a
perspective on it. There are those who claim to see things as God sees them, but
I’ve never been sure they are right. Our judgments are always human. We are
always limited. We live a fragile existence. And finally, we die.

© Grand Valley State University

�God Loves People: To Be Human is Enough

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

There is an inherent anxiety in being human. And I suspect that’s why God has
mercy on us. The Psalmist says God never forgets that fact. After all, we are
created by God and God doesn’t forget the “stuff” with which he (or she) is
working. That’s good news. That ought to give us some encouragement for
ourselves and some compassion one for another. Paul writes in the fifth chapter
of Romans, in this context, where he speaks about the demonstration of God’s
love being precisely in the fact that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for
us.” In that context, Paul describes us with two different words. One is he speaks
of us as being weak or impotent. It was while we were in our weakness and our
impotence that the initiative of God was taken to come with redeeming grace.
Weakness. Impotence.
And then a little later he speaks of our hostility or enmity with God. And those
two words characterize our human situation very well. Impotence and hostility.
Have you ever known a hostile person? You say you are married to one.
(Laughter) Or maybe for a brief stint an adolescent growing up in your home
manifests a bit of hostility. I sure hope you don’t work for one. Hostile people are
not easy to live with. Hostile people are dealing with some stuff that they may be
aware of or they may be unaware of. The most dangerous ones are those who
have no self-awareness at all - who don’t realize the pot or the cauldron that boils
deep in their gut. But it manifests itself in hostility. And you know the great
generator of hostility - impotence, occurs when we feel powerless. It makes us
angry. We become hostile. We strike out. Paul says that is a portrait of a sinner.
No great, dramatic, tragic villain here, just a powerless, hostile person. Paul says
for such persons Christ died. To such people God comes with grace and in
compassion provides the healing that empowers and reconciles.
In his book, The Spirituality of Imperfection, (If I get it in ten times in this
sermon, I get 10% on all copies sold in the next six months.) (Laughter) Dr. Kurtz
makes a very significant distinction - a distinction between spirituality and
therapy. The end of therapy is explanation. The end of spirituality is forgiveness.
We need both. We need explanation. We’ve been short on explanation in the
Church. I ream you out for all of your fallibilities, failures, fickleness,
faithlessness and what have you, and then say “Repent or perish.” And, of course,
you do neither. But you get your back up. Who likes to be addressed that way?
The problem is that you don’t even understand what’s going on. We’ve been short
on explanations. So we have driven a lot of faithful people out of the Church.
People have said, “Something is going on, but I don’t understand it,” and they’ve
found a couch somewhere and a psychiatrist. There, they find explanation.
Explanation illumines, but by itself it doesn’t heal, because, when we have
received all the light that is possible on the subject, what we still need to hear is,
“You are forgiven.”
Forgiveness is necessary for that for which there is no explanation and no excuse.
We are anxious. We are scared to death. We feel our emptiness and we strike out
in hostility. It is helpful to get a handle on why. It is healing to know that God in

© Grand Valley State University

�God Loves People: To Be Human is Enough

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

grace forgives us. In fact, has forgiven us already. As “far as the east is from the
west so far has God removed our transgressions from us….as high as the heaven
is from the earth, so great is His mercy to those who stand in awe.” The Bible is
replete with many such beautiful images. God, it says, has blotted out our sin.
Like a thick cloud, God has cast it behind God’s back. God has buried it in the
depths of the sea.
The story was told of Jim who got to heaven one day and fell down at Jesus’ feet
and said, “Oh, Lord Jesus, thank you, thank you for forgiving all my sin.” And
Jesus looked at him and said, “What sin?” Now that’s good news. It is all because
God loves people, and “To be Human is Enough.” And from what I know of you
folks, you’re human, all too human. And God loves you!
Reference:
Ernest Kurtz, Katherine Ketcham. The Spirituality of Imperfection: Storytelling
and the Search for Meaning. Bantam, reprint edition, 1993.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>God of Many Names,
A Prayer by Richard A. Rhem
Interfaith Leadership Dinner
Kaufman Interfaith Institute
Grand Valley State University
Grand Rapids, Michigan
April 27, 2015

God of many names,
gathered into one,
in your love we sense our oneness.
Having traveled our respective paths,
which we honor,
we find we have arrived here together
in one place –
not only physical space –
but oneness of vision, oneness of spirit,
embraced together in the freedom of grace
and the wonder of love.
We are grateful for this movement that gathers us,
for those whose vision is being realized,
for those whose faithful leadership challenges us
to new frontiers of faith and service,
and especially for the lives of those honored this evening,
who have embodied the beauty
of being as one in your presence.
As we gather around tables spread,
we know your grace
as we look into each other’s face
and sense a bit of heaven on earth.
O God of many names,
receive our thanksgiving.

© Grand Valley State University

	

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text/pdf</text>
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                <text>God of Many Names</text>
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                <text>Prayer created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on April 27, 2015 entitled "God of Many Names", on the occasion of Interfaith Leadership Dinner Kaufman Interfaith Institute, at GVSU, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Tags: Prayer, Interfaith.</text>
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