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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Dudley Hoare Garland served as an artillery officer in the Ninth Infantry Division during World War II. Assigned to Battery A, 26th Field Artillery Regiment, which normally supported the 39th Infantry Regiment, Garland eventually became its commanding officer, and then moved to the staff of the divisional artillery when promoted to the rank of Major. Garland landed with his unit in North Africa and served in North Africa, Sicily, France, Belgium and Germany. He was assigned to return to the US in March, 1945, and while there, he visited the office of his brother George in New York City, and recorded some of his experiences on his brother’s office Dictaphone. The original recording was not preserved, but George’s daughter, Kent Garland McKay, had the transcript, which she has shared with us for posting to this archive. This file also includes information given to Garland by his former commanding officer, Lt. Col. Lewis Lockett, when Garland visited him in a hospital in 1943. The transcript covers a variety of topics, including having his ship sunk off the coast of Algeria, fighting in Tunisia, Sicily, Normandy, Belgium and Germany, relationships with other officers and civilians, meetings with high ranking generals and political figures, and different aspects of daily life in the countries where he was stationed.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Curly Garner
Length: 33:19
(00:11) Background Information and Training
•
•
•
•
•

Curly tried to enlist when he was 17 years old, but was rejected due to medical problems
He went to work for a construction company
While he was working construction in San Francisco, California, he enlisted in the Coast
Guard
At that time the Coast Guard was part of the Navy
Curley trained at Government Island in Alameda, California

(3:06) Deployment
•
•
•
•
•
•
•

Curley was sent to the Aleutian Islands and patrolled near the top of Japan during World
War II
He patrolled near the top of Japan
They would try and rescue planes that went down
Once they thought there was a sub, so they dropped depth charges
There was a flash back that ignited some oil and a man from the engine room died of
burns
Sometimes they had to go into a harbor because the seas would get to rough
Curly thought it was exiting to drop depth charges

(7:49) Conditions
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•

The weather was bad all of the time, it was hazy, dark, windy and cold
An officer jumped into the rough sea to save 3 men that had washed off a ship and
received a medal for it
Curly wrote letters home to pass time and keep in touch
They always had coffee, but sometimes had to eat cold sandwiches because it was too
rough to cook
He didn’t have any pressure or stress
They could watch movies aboard the ship
Curly went to a USO show while at port
They could visit the Army bases

(18:00) End of the War

�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•

Curly took a 30 day leave after boot camp
He was supposed to go Japan, but got a position as a storekeeper
Curly was discharged in San Francisco
His duty during the war was to relay commands from the captain during his service
After his discharge he did electric, heating, and plumbing
Curly worked at a grocery store
He then went to work as a postmaster until he retired
Curly still keeps in touch with a couple of his friends from the war
He belongs to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Legion, and the American
Veteran Association
Curly thinks “war is hell but it is necessary”
The service broadened his perspective of the world, was a good experience, and made
him mature

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Grand Valley State University Veterans History project
Interviewee’s name: Gerald Garner
Length of Interview: (00:30:21)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Madison Vander Lugt
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Gerry Garner of Bridgman, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, Gerry, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
We just talked about that, West Branch, Michigan
Interviewer: “Oh, but we weren’t on tape. Now we’re on tape.”
Oh, now we got to get it on tape. Yeah, West Branch, Michigan.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what year”
That was 1945. May 25th was…
Interviewer: “No, when were you born?”
When was I born? May 25th of 1927
Interviewer: “Twenty-seven, yes. As opposed to forty-five, okay. And what was your family
doing for a living at that time?”
*(00:00:47)*
Dad was a jeweler and a watch repairman; mother tested eyes. Well, they had an aunt, her
mother’s sister, who’d go along with them. She lost her husband. Their dad, Marcellus Graves,
had a jewelry store. Sold watches, fitted and repaired watches and he taught a lot of that to his
kids. In fact, he taught my dad while dad was still working on the farm north of Vassar. This is
all in Vassar, Michigan that he learned how to repair watches. And so he worked for 2 years with
his dad farming. He said he didn’t want to be a farmer. So they got a loan of money from him

�and all went up to West Branch and bought out a business that Cassius Graves, mother’s uncle,
had been running. And they had that store there till they passed away.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you managed to keep the store during the ’30s and the
Depression?”
*(00:01:53)*
Wasn’t easy. Jewelry wasn’t a good thing to be into then. And we were just handed Northern
Power Company, start giving us electricity for the little fire, electric plants just outside of town.
And it was hardly enough power to run all the lights on a Saturday night, let alone do anything
else. And finally, it got bought out by Consumers Power which had a bigger grid and they
needed somewhere place to show their electrical equipment; stoves, refrigerators, wash
machines. Didn’t have dryers, they had wash machines, they had things like that. So, he rented
them half the store and then agreed to collect half their light bills for them and that got people
coming into the store. Plus they had this service man’s desk there and dad had, during the ‘teens,
had been infatuated with cars. So I think he got a different car about every year when you can
buy them for about four or five hundred dollars. And he’d run a taxi service because people
would come in on the train, getting there by car on the roads that they had in those days wasn’t
very good. But these salesmen would come in and need local transportation so he and a couple
other fellows rented out their services as a cab driver. So he did quite a bit of that in the early
years and in the process...well actually, he had one friend that was a mail deliverer who got sick
and he’d run his mail route for him for a while. So he learned a lot where the farmers were and
this was invaluable when he was working for the power company because they didn’t have a
radio then to call in and say who’s out now. And in those days if you had lightning anywhere you
had outages. And the fellow would go to a farmer had a phone, which they did some of them
have phones, and he’d call in: Well, who’s out now? and Dad would say Oh, this group of
farmers are out. and they knew right away where the automatic switches were so he was a big
asset to them. So he lived, that was middle thirties somewhere when he started that, it was
certainly the depression time. When he died in ‘57 they tried...well I got involved because
mother and dad said this eye testing business, being an optometrist is a good deal. So I really
didn’t ever have any other thoughts of what I was going to be doing. So when I got out of service
I immediately go to the closest school we had for optometry was in Chicago. It was that Northern
Optic, Northern Illinois School of Optometry and they said, we can’t take you; we usually handle
sixty-five students a year coming in and we got four hundred and some coming in with a G.I. Bill
coming behind them. He says you could take this basic schooling in the Freshman year is just
science classes, so take that locally. So I went down to Bay City and into the community college
there and there’s where I got my first year of schooling with a lot of physics classes and a lot of
labs in the afternoon which interfered with my playing basketball.

�*(00:05:21)*
Interviewer: “Alright, that’s getting really far ahead of the story so let’s kind of rotate back
here. We talked about how your family kind of got through the ‘30s and basically, your
mother had a job and your father…”
It took both of them to run the store.
Interviewer: “And then he ran the store and then did all these other things along the side
to find ways to kind of get by.”
*nods* To get by.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when Pearl Harbor happens, you’re still pretty young, fourteen
or whatever.”
Yeah, I remember their first news coming in over their radio about that. And that was pretty
awesome that, in fact, we suspected FDR had been helping England right along with land lease
stuff and we were pretty much isolationists over here. We thought that was all somewhere else.
We often wondered if they actually had an inkling that this raid was going to happen and let it
happen just to get us stirred up so we’d get into the fight.
Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s an off-camera conversation, research that one, but anyway so it
happens...did you assume at the time that the war would be over before you would be old
enough to be in it or did you not think about that?”
You know, I didn’t think that far ahead, didn’t know where this atomic experimenting was going
on. I had a cousin that was fourteen years older than I that had gone into the Army and he’d
spend a lot of time in the Philippines. And he got jungle rot on his feet and was in the hospital
when his outfit moved and was ready to invade Okinawa and so he kind of missed an event that
took out about half the guys in his group. When he got there, they were already established and
they were trying to get the Japs out of their holes in the ground on the northern part of the island.
*(00:07:26)*
Interviewer: “Alright, we’re going to go back to you. So basically, Pearl Harbor happens
and, I mean, it’s something of a shock to the system at that point. And then did life change
in your community once the war started or did things stay pretty much the same?”

�I would say so. We had a local oil business. We had oil we found underneath our town and in the
area, we had our own refinery. My brother was working as a gauger for the Simmer Oil
Company. So that was a deferred kind of thing and many people work in the oil business one
way or the other. Many of them drove clear to Flint which was a hundred miles every day with a
carload to work in one of the plants down there. Of course, they stopped making cars for about
two years from ‘42 to ‘44. Dad was on the rationing board so he had to decide who can have how
much, how many gallons of gas and really pass around to people that extra and helped out. It
wasn’t too much of a problem getting the gas but the schools couldn’t use buses for out of town
sports stuff and we had to borrow theirs to drive us. Tires were pretty new. They had had this ‘40
Chevy engine rebuilt before they got through because stuff didn’t last in those days like they do
now. I had a big victory garden two different years that was...everybody who had anywhere to
raise stuff would have a garden of some kind. Yeah, I would say the whole community to run a
total war on two parts of the world was a total effort.
*(00:09:20)*
Interviewer: “Alright, now as the war goes on and you get older, there’s the prospect now
that you could get drafted once you turn eighteen in ‘45. So how did you deal with the
prospect of service? You talked about this off-camera, but now we’re doing it on.”
I guess I didn’t think about not going in. I didn’t have other than my eyesight needing glasses
which prevented me from volunteering. I’d already worked a couple months with the navy to get
some kind of schooling.
Interviewer: “Can you explain that? What it means, you worked with the navy to get
schooling?”
Yeah, while Dad and his brother-in-law were in the wholesale business, finding out what kind of
goods were sellable, I went into the navy recruiting place and I talked to him then. And I think I
mist have had about three visits with him in the process of passing the written test for the radar
technician training. And then finding out that I couldn’t volunteer and had to wait until the 25th
of May when I signed up for the draft. I don’t know if you can sign up before you’re eighteen or
not cause that’s when I was eighteen, it was the 25th of May in ‘45. And the fighting in Europe
was done and it wasn’t couple months later that we dropped the bombs on Japan and that was
done.
*(00:10:59)*
Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you pick the navy?”

�Well, living in trenches and stuff didn’t appeal to me. At least they had good food and a place to
eat even if the ship now got knocked out underneath you then that’s where the bad part starts.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then initially you were interested in radar and being a
technician?”
Not particularly, it was the only schooling. I was interested in some kind of schooling that I was
in. My son...I don’t know if I can divert to another member of the family…
Interviewer: “Yup!”
*(00:11:33)*
...My oldest son was born in ‘51 so he becomes eighteen sometime in the ends of ‘68. And
Vietnam was going on and Vietnam was not a popular subject, in fact, some of the young fellows
were thinking about escaping to Canada to avoid it. And my brother and I had quite a
conversation talking him out of that and then I said: You go get some schooling at one of the
services and by the time you get the schooling done, the Vietnam issue will be settled. And he
wanted to be an optometrist and fill in for when I quit. They had for three years he could be an
optician. He was one that runs the lab and fills the prescriptions for the optometrist or whoever
tested the eyes. So he went out to Aurora...he, first of all, sneaked out and got married to his
girlfriend and then took her with him to Aurora, Colorado where he spent two or three months
learning the business. Then he spent the rest of his three years in Fort Benning, fitting glasses.
Interviewer: “Alright, so we kind of go back up to you. So you’ve kind of decided, okay,
you’re interested in the navy and essentially what’s happening here is you try to enlist
when you were seventeen but they didn’t let you because of your eyesight?”
No. No, I didn’t say I did anything until after I was eighteen. I wasn’t really going to go ahead of
time.
Interviewer: “Alright, but you were talking to them before you were eighteen?”
The way it worked out, by the time I was ready, I was up to eighteen then on the 25th. And that’s
the end of high school so I got my chance to graduate even went and played a final tennis
tournament down in Kalamazoo. My buddy and I, we were tennis players.
Interviewer: “Ok, so now, end of May, you’ve signed up and now where do you go for your
basic training?”

�*(00:13:41)*
Well, we went first to boot camp in Great Lakes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was that like?”
Well, it was...I was trying to describe it as just a hodgepodge of different things to keep us busy.
It took a while to get to 126 of us and we’re all going to do the same thing. And they were put
over in Camp Downey which is over on the West side of the railroad tracks cause Great Lakes is
a big place. But we did an awful lot of drilling and we did a lot of manual alarms with the rifles. I
think I got with the food I was getting and the exercise I was getting, I never got tougher or
stronger than I was at that time. We had firefighting, we had learning flag signals, we learned
Morse code, we went down on the lakefront and a couple different times and shot the aircraft,
30’s and 50’s, firefighting on a ship; we never did go on a rifle range. So I guess that was what
we were filled, it was abbreviated from a normal boot camp cause we were going on to schooling
then.
Interviewer: “Okay, how did you already have your schooling picked out?”
Where I was going to go?
Interviewer: “What your schooling was going to be.”
The schooling was just radar technician training.
Interviewer: “Okay, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the military? Going
off being at camp”
I didn’t have any trouble with that.
Interviewer: “Alright, and about how long did the boot camp last?’
*(00:15:33)*
When did we go into Chicago? That had to be September or October, I think, something like
that. But I was starting the primary school in Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so at primary school, so where were you then? Was that the high
school in Chicago?”

�Yeah, that was a high school that wasn’t being used as a school anymore. The navy had the use
of it. So we had the barracks set right up in the gym. We had bunks that were three bunks high.
Living on the top one was not any fun. It’s a long ways to the floor if you walk in your sleep. I
remember Wednesday nights were off, we could leave the base. So we’d go down to Halsted
Street and even in those days all of the stores had screens, metal screens, over the windows to
prevent breaking in, We went to a malt shop there and that’s when I learned about banana malts.
So we had very often got a vanilla malt with a banana ground up into it and when the Japan quit
there was quite a celebration downtown, I guess we didn’t observe directly, but we saw pictures
of the crowds on the streets and the what all was going to celebrate that we finally got the stupid
war over with.
Interviewer: “Alright, now, what did your training there actually consist of? What were
you learning while you were there?”
*(00:17:16)*
Well, the basics of radar and electrical systems involved in creating the signals and interpreting
them when they come back. So this was pretty much about generating electrical circuits,
batteries, and the power source for radar. We were just going on to the next schooling to get a
better application when they decided they didn’t need to train us in that anymore. And we were
really concerned about what was going to happen to us because we figured we’d be on a ship’s
company on some base somewhere. Maybe way out in Midway or something like that, we’d be
stuck for a while, didn’t work that way.
Interviewer: “Ok, so where did you go next?”
Well, we went back to Great Lakes before they decided what to do with us. And I can’t quite
remember how long we were there. We did get on a troop train that got us out to San Francisco
and then I told you about going from Treasure [...] Island, a year in [Hawaii?], and then down to
Alameda and that’s where a lot of ships were stationed. We had an aircraft carrier sitting beside
us. You get the tide working out there, you maybe go up in the morning going up like that on the
walkway and then next time you come back you’re going like that. And I saw, while I was there,
I saw one of the four-engine flying boats that flew from San Fransisco out to Honolulu and
watched one take off. You never thought with all the load they had on that the bay wasn’t big
enough for them to take off, terrible racket. That first time they said they were sending people
back to their place of origin which would be Great Lakes or Maine. But they finally decided to,
they were so overwhelmed that Great Lakes with dischargees that they would let us get
discharged out there and then they’d give us five cents a mile for us to get home. Before that
happened, my buddy that I was with had an uncle out there that had some kind of a mining
company. He also had a nice looking daughter and so we were going to get him to give us letters

�saying we had promise of employment out there so we could stay out there and get discharged.
Well, that never reached a conclusion so they let us go up to Stockton and get discharged. They
tried to talk us into upping but we couldn’t quite see that.
*(00:20:02)*
Interviewer: “But, what were they offering in terms if you re-upped; what would they give
you?”
Oh boy, I can’t remember that. I can’t remember that. Wasn’t in the picture so we didn’t listen
very hard.
Interviewer: “Alright so how long did you actually spend in Alameda?”
In Alameda?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
It’d be less than two months.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of job did you have there?”
Well, they assigned me to one of the departments on the ship. Let me think now; I did some
painting down in some of the holes. I guess that must have been before I was assigned in the
carpenter’s shop. But we used to have a priming paint that was very good to stop rust. And I
remember going way down in the bow, or in the crap quarters, and we had these little power
units pumping air down and our air up and even then when you’d come out you were drunk
cause the smell of paint was not very good for you. I guess I did some of that at first until I got
assigned to this carpenter’s shop and I was just inventory and the tools I had and I had some stiff
to smear on that made a coating to keep them from rusting.
*(00:21:28)*
Interviewer: “Ok, so you’re on the Seaplane tender and, that’s the type of ship you were
on?”
That’s what they called it. I never knew much more about what it did.
Interviewer: “Ok, can you describe the ship physically?”

�Yeah, it was a lot like a destroyer but quite a bit smaller. I don’t even remember what armament
it had on it cause I wasn’t involved in that. We had heard from fellows coming back from the
Pacific which maybe shouldn’t be talked about. But they said they realized how much delay they
would have of getting out because of what they had to do with the ship to decommission it or
preserve it. And they started throwing things, things disappeared overboard so they didn’t have
to do a lot of what we were doing. So out there somewhere on the bottom of the Pacific before
you get into the bay at San Francisco there’s a lot of war materials setting
Interviewer: “Something that someone did not want to inventory.”
Didn’t want to spend the time it was going to take to do it. They wanted to go home.
Interviewer: “Now were they decommissioning the ship you were on or was this just
regular maintenance that you were doing?”
No, I assume that was going in storage. I don’t think there was any need for it to go out anymore.
So I assume it was mothballed as they say.
*(00:22:48)*
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get much time to sort of go off base in these places? In
San Francisco or anywhere else?”
Out there, yeah, we had a small boat that we could take as a taxi and could run across to
downtown San Francisco so I remember going over there quite a few times. As I say we had a, a
friend and I, this people that we said couldn’t get to work for us. We were up in… uh, what’s the
name of the college town on the north side of the bay? Anyway, it was a very nice residential
area that they lived in. It used to be a great place to walk around cause I wasn’t too used to the
smell of night-looming jasmine for example is quite overwhelming at night. And the San
Francisco Bay with everything being hills around it, the lights on the bay and everything is just a
beautiful situation. You can see the lights on the San Francisco from across where we were.
Berkley is the name I wanted to say was up that place and it was just a beautiful sight. In fact, I
took my wife out there and we spent two weeks later on exploring San Francisco and northern
California.
*(00:24:23)*
Interviewer: “Alright, so you said the job thing didn’t happen?”

�The job thing?...No, never got that needed because, I said, we’re overwhelmed back at Great
Lakes and you were picking up discharge wherever you want so Stockton happened to be the
place we went to.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then this takes you back to when you basically decided to go for
optometry school. You had gone to the place in Illinois and they had told you go off and
take some lower-level classes first…”
I could take that right in Bay City.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you then go back to that school or did you go somewhere
else?”
Oh, yeah. Yeah, even before I had my grades even to me in Bay City they were ready to start the
summer term over there.
Interviewer: “Okay”
And I was quite sure my grades were quite suitable. I never had any trouble with grades in
school.
Interviewer: “Alright, so then you went on to be an optometrist then?”
Right. I spent forty years back in West Branch. I met after, John and I both went took the state
board when we got back in late 49 and passed the board. So he was going to be with his dad in
Standish and I was going to take over my mother’s part of the business. We always had rooms
built in the building but behind or above the store because it took both mother and dad all the
time to take care of the store. People in those days didn’t plan on eye tests unless you had a
problem. So invariably if they come in and say they need their eyes checked, there was
something wrong. And most of them because they just needed some kind of glasses. And people,
when they got glasses, didn’t get them from mother; that wasn’t something women did. They got
them from the dad. Mother worked for the dad so she had that against her. Now they had two
sons and they went there in 1910 and had their first son in 1912 and another in 1915 and I didn’t
come along until 27. So those two boys were like uncles to me more than other. And the oldest
one, he took county normal. Do you know what county normal is? In high school, there was a
class for the seniors. I think it was just seniors. They’re preparing them for teaching in their oneroom schools and every township had to have and that was mostly the source for girls. I don’t
know how many fellows took it but he went on to Central Michigan then and got his degree for
teaching and math and music. And when he went to be in high school for his first job, I went
with him for first grade, So that’s how much difference it was between my oldest brother and

�myself. And I wasn’t going to that school. I was really spoiled. But when I went, I loved it. I
loved it. I loved to have the kids to play with.
*(00:27:30)*
Interviewer: “Alright, okay now…”
I didn’t mention something we did in shop.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
It was to make scale size model planes, painted in black, of German planes, French planes,
British planes, Japan planes, and our own planes. So that was supposed to be, somewhere they
used them for plane spotting, for training.

Interviewer: “Right, for training recognition of aircrafts. So let’s…”
Yeah, we had a booth on top of the community building and somebody was in it all the time
watching for planes because in those days somebody had the idea that Germans were capable of
flying over top of the world to northern Canada, where there isn’t anybody, and set up a
refueling station so they could come down through the upper part of the country, bombing. And
the straights were there, Saginaw, Bay City, Flint, Pontiac, Detroit, Chicago. All kinds of
industrial power in the middle of the country that we needed to protect. And we were there trying
to watch for airplanes that weren’t supposed to be there.
*(00:28:40)*
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you actually do, did you have air-raid wardens or blackouts
or things like that or did you not do that in a place like West Branch?”
No, I don’t remember having that type of thing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now, you have kind of an, almost a snafu kind of experience in the
service, in the sense that you went around to all of these places and didn’t spend too much
time doing too much. But, what do you think you took out of that or did you learn anything
from the process of being in the military?”
Oh, got me out of a small town. Fed me, housed me, gave me a chance to go and explore
Chicago quite a bit with the USO and generally learned that Chicago is a tough place to live in.

�Of course, I spent years in optometry school there. Met a few girls, learned to dance at the
Aragon and Trianon and went and first time I saw professional basketball players was there. And
a fellow that was from Minnesota that was one of the bigger guys there, Mike...if only I could get
his name for it, I was overwhelmed by the size of those guys. But I did see some of the world in
that respect that I don’t see in my little town of West Branch.
Interviewer: “Alright, well thanks for interesting stories. So thanks very much for coming
in and sharing today.”
Okay.
*(00:30:21)*
End of Interview.

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                <text>Gerald Garner was born in West Branch, Michigan, on May 25, 1927. During the Great Depression, his family's jewelry shop was diversified as his father agreed to share the space with an energy company so he could pay the rent. Garner signed onto a radar technician program with the Navy in the closing months of the war and attedned Boot Camp at Great Lakes Naval Station. He was in Alameda, California, when the war ended and was quickly offered an early-out of the service due to the flood of dischargees returning home. He then went on to attend optometry school in Chicago on the GI Bill.</text>
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                    <text>Living with PFAS
Interviewee: Garret Ellison
Interviewer: Dani DeVasto
Date: June 29, 2021

DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, June 29th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Garret
Ellison. Hi, Garret!
GE: Hi, Dani.
DD: Garret, can you tell me where you are from and where you currently live?
GE: Well, I’m, [chuckles], I guess I’m from Traverse City. I grew up and went to school in
Traverse City. Graduated high school up there in 2001 and then, I went to the community college
there at [MC?] and started a journalism career — or studying journalism brought me to Central
Michigan where I got a bachelor’s degree and I now work for MLive as the Statewide
Environmental Reporter. I’ve done that since 2015-2014 and I currently live in Kalamazoo. I’ve
bounced around — Traverse City, Mount Pleasant, Grand Rapids. I did a lot — a lot of the stuff
we’re going to talk about today happened when I live in the Grand Rapids-Kent County area.
DD: And how long have you been in Kalamazoo?
GE: Since 2019. I moved down here to be closer to my daughter who moved away with my ex in
2018. So, [chuckles] I’ll get into some of that because it ties into the story a little bit.
DD: Alright, let’s just get rolling then. Can you please tell me a story about your experience with
PFAS [per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances] or PFAS in your community?
GE: Sure, I guess what I can tell you is a little bit about the — the best story that I have to tell is
the way the news broke around the Wolverine Worldwide contamination in the RockfordBelmont area and I think the place to begin is with an email that I got I — I pulled it up.
So, it was July 19, yep, 2017, and I was in Alabaster Township over on the sunrise side of the
state — near Tawas. Just south of Tawas. At what would be — would’ve been my father and
mother in-laws’ bedroom where I was working— you know had I gotten married to my ex, my
daughter’s mother. So, we were up visiting during the week, and I was working, you know,
remotely and they were, you know, my daughter was little over 1 years old at the time. She’s still
pretty little. And so, we were up near — Haley is her — my ex’s name and my daughter’s name
is Olive.
And so, we were up with Haley’s parents, and I got an email from a woman named Lynn
McIntosh. And her email is lmarie003, right, and I didn’t understand it at the time but the 003 is
sort of a cute James Bond reference [laughs] — like she’s [Agent 003?].
1

�DD: [laughs]
GE: And she said she had read a lot of articles that I had written, and she follows the PFAS issue
pretty closely and she wanted to tell me a possible lead on a story about related to PFOS [perand polyfluoroalkyl substances] sources in Northern Kent County other than Plainfield
Township.
And so, at this point, I had written fairly extensively about Wurtsmith Air Force Base in Oscoda
which like is the first place in Michigan that PFAS had ever been discovered. And through that
reporting, I had learned that the chemicals were in the township municipal water supply in
Plainfield at sort of moderate levels. I think were — nothing that really exceeded the EPA’s 70
parts per trillion health advisory level, but nevertheless, sort of concerning.
So, I had written in 2016 an article about that, right so, Plainfield, Ann Arbor, detection of these
chemicals in public drinking water— and it was some of the first reporting in Michigan about
PFAS and drinking water. So it was real early — you know there was a reaction to it, but it
wasn’t like, you know, had you written that story now, people would — “oh, no” — they’d
really go nuts. People didn’t quite understand it then.
So, I got this email from a lady named Lynn talking about possible sources in Kent County —
Northern Kent County and it really piqued my interest because nobody knew why it was getting
into Plainfield Township’s water. There was a suspicion that it was a [super fun side?] on the
East Beltline but hadn’t been determined yet. And there was suspicion that it could from a gravel
pit on the other side of the — the Grand River which subsequently would discover was a
Wolverine dump site. But none of this had been discovered yet.
And so, Lynn McIntosh asked to meet. And so — I didn’t get back to her right away. [laughs] I
got back to her few days later on the 21st. And I said — I apologized for — the delay —
sometimes it takes me a few days, you know, — just to — I get emails from lots of different
people, and you’ve got to decide, do I respond to this person? Because everybody promises
they’ve got a story, and they’ve got a big scoop. And it’s like, some of them are just cranks. And
you just don’t — you just don’t want to — want to give them a reply because then you get pulled
in.
DD: [um-hum]
GE: But Lynn had enough detail. And she mentioned something — she mentioned something in
her email — or emails — about a tannery. And that — triggered something in my mind because
— I had moved to Sparta in October 2016 from Grand Rapids with my, you know, ex and our —
our infant daughter. Sparta, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Sparta, but it’s not — there’s not
a lot to do there. [chuckles]
DD: [chuckles]

2

�GE: But it’s close to Rockford, you know, it’s, you know, a 5-10 minute drive. So, in the
evenings, we would go to Rockford and we would walk the White Pine trail with Olive in the
stroller. And, you know, it’s kind of nice downtown, and there’s the dam. And just, you know, if
you’re going to go for a stroll with a kid, it’s a — it’s a more desirable place to do that.
And so, we’ve been walking the white pine trails a few times, and we’re walking past this big,
empty property north of downtown Rockford and I keep looking at it like, why is there a fence
here? What is this? I just didn’t know what the property used to be. But it looked like a pollution
site, right? I’ve been doing environmental stuff for a while, and I was kind of like, [hmmm]
something’s going on here. This is prime real-estate downtown. It would be built on if there
wasn’t some sort of contamination error issue going on here.
So, I remember flagging down a police officer, one of the bike cops that just sort of [roams
around?], and I was like “Hey is there something wrong with that property?”. And I got a “Oh,
no —no I don’t know anything about it, you know”. And I’m like, “you don’t know anything
about that property, you know, mister police officer who live in Rockford and works in Rockford
and this is downtown Rockford?” [mimics garbled response from police officer]
DD: [chuckles]
GE: So, I had kind of been like [huh]. Through this email with Lynn, I learned that this was the
Wolverine Worldwide tannery. And — it — it just sort of clicked that — that could be
interesting. And so, I agreed to meet Lynn a few days later and we walked — we walked from
the Rockford Dam up to — a spot on the river right next to where the foot depot is, right. So,
there is the existing building on the tannery site — the only thing that is left. And it used to be
the manufacturing facility itself, but now it’s just a shoe store.
DD: [um-hum]
And so, Lynn’s kind of like, you’ve got to see this. There’s still a ton of leather and stuff leftover
from the tannery itself right here in the riverbank. And I’m like, really? And so, we push all this
brush aside on the riverbank, it was pretty overgrown at the time, I mean you walked the trail and
could see the river but it’s not like it is now after the EPA clean up, where, you know, it’s been
— all that underbrush and vegetation has been removed.
So, we push aside this — all this vegetation and just look down and it’s just leather litter. It’s —
it’s — like old scraps of the leather, the trimmings, right, from the manufacturing process. And
— and — pieces of shoe, rubber soles — rubber shoe soles. And it was obvious right? Anybody
could’ve figured it out. I mean — there was even a— a— a sole, a full rubber sole of a shoe that
said hush puppies on it. [laughs] So — I mean it’s like, huh.
DD: Yeah.
GE: So, I took a bunch of pictures of this, and immediately I’m like, well, if a company is going
to leave this here, right here on the riverbank for anyone to find, it’s got their name on it — what
else have they left, you know? So, everything was sort of [hmm] — this is —Lynn McIntosh is
3

�definitely not just a crank or someone who was just emailing me, right? There’s something here
for sure.
So, I started to really get into, alright, what’s going on? And so, she shows me the leather scraps
— which those photos really caught people’s attention, right? Just that — the idea that this stuff
is still littering the river and it has the company’s name on it and it’s been there for years. And
it’s been there for so long that like, it had become a part of the riverbank. Like trees had grown
up around it. Big trees. And you know, to hear Lynn tell it, it was just the tip of the iceberg. You
know, I mean like, the whole riverbank was made of leather, more or less, you know, in fact
there’s and island on the river that they call the “Island of the Lost Soles”.
DD: [chuckles]
GE: You know, because it was supposedly built on leather trimmings, and leather hides and stuff
that hadn’t been, you know, used as infill.
DD: Wow.
GE: So, [sighs] so she — you know I go over to Lynn’s house, and she drops theses huge
binders of like, you know, paperwork, old reports [foil materials?], emails, her own sort of, you
know, sketches and drawings like her decade of —near decade work on the tannery and the
contamination issue there. And you know, it was like, it was overwhelming — like oh man.
[laughs]
And so, I started to go through it and talk to her and sort of understand what the concern was
which ended up being they put a ton of scotch guard on that leather and — they had — you know
her group, CCRR, [Concerned Citizens for Responsible Redevelopment], was initially the “R”,
but they changed it to be “remediation” later on — you know had learned about all the scotch
guard use and was arguing with Wolverine to try to get them to do more with the remediation at
the tannery site. And they were having all kinds of problems because there was a guy at
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality who was real friendly to Wolverine, and you
know, he just didn’t take them seriously at all and didn’t like Lynn clearly at all. She seemed to
have rubbed him the wrong way.
[sighs] And so, we start to scope out a story about, you know, this issue with the PFAS in the
river. It had been found with some surface water testing a few years prior that’s they knew for
sure it was there — and like look at all this, I mean the leather scraps, and the river, and the
tannery, and the fish was the first story that we worked on. And that was — I think we finally got
that ready to go in late August. Let me Google the date. [typing sounds] August 23, 2017, right.
So, it was ready to go about a week or so before that, but the Corner Bar in Rockford caught fire
on like, the day that we were going to publish this story. And so, we held on to it. To not, I mean
—sort of for us — just community sensitivity reasons. I mean it was like, okay, we’re not gonna
— [laughs] the community of Rockford is mourning the loss of an institution right now., we’re
not going to just the same day put this story out there about how there’s this big pollution
problem in the river right downtown. I mean, it’s there, it can wait a week.
4

�So, we waited a week and then published it on the 23rd of August — and [sighs][chuckles] I feel
like I already glossed over so much just by — at this point — so while I was reporting out that
story in August, I got a phone call from Lynn, who, you know, [sighs] had just found sort of just
through the grapevine that the DEQ [Michigan Department of Environmental Quality], they’re
now called EAGLE [Environment And Great Lakes Energy] — it’s a cute acronym —they were
handing out bottled water on a street in Belmont — where the chemicals were being found in
people’s private drinking wells.
DD: [huh]
GE: And she was all excited — like not in a good way but like “oh my god, they found — they
found this stuff at like, eighteen-hundred parts per trillion”, probably more, but I’d have to go
find the notebook, but she was like, “really high levels at someone’s well on House Street”. And
I remember writing it down like, “House Street, where the hell is House Street?”, right, like I
didn’t even know where that was, and I thought, what a silly name for a street — like “building
avenue”. [chuckles]
DD: [laughs]
GE: So, before the first story about the river published, we learned about what was happening on
House Street— but, I mean, at that point it’s like, “oh, man, you know, what do I do?” You
know, I’ve reported on this story, it’s focused on the river, and this issue with the tannery, and it
became — so I started looking at House Street too and it became clear that this is a Wolverine
Worldwide problem as well — and so, you know, the focus — the decision was — well let’s get
the first story out and then follow up pretty quickly — as soon as you can.
And so, you know, by the time the story was published on the 23rd, I had already started pivoting
to House Street and I was trying to — I was — I had gotten a good briefing on the issue from the
guy at the DEQ. His name was David O’Donnell. And he kind of ends up being a villain in this
story. [long sigh] I don’t know if villain is the best way to put it, but he does not come across
well. I mean like, you know, if you go back and look at some of the decisions that he made, you
know, he not a [sighs] — the people who live on House Street, right, are not a fan of David
O’Donnell — neither is Lynn McIntosh or anyone who, you know, works for the CCRR because
he had been sort of a gatekeeper at DEQ — in charge of sort of the site, the Wolverine tannery
site. Come to find out, he had been really — he had been a bit of an impediment to this stuff
being discovered and being dealt with — something of a poster child for regulator captures in
some ways.
But what had happened, you know, CCRR and Lynn McIntosh — her group had been gathering
all this evidence about Wolverine’s scotch guard use and had been taking it to David O’Donnell
and the DEQ and trying to go, “Hey, look. Look at where they — this stuffs in the river right
here in Rockford, you know, Wolverine’s patent [chuckles] clearly demonstrates that they use
these chemicals, there’s all kinds of references to is even if” — but of course their lawyers are
denying that they did and you know — you know even denying that they knew anything about
scotch guard or PFAS and just the way that lawyers deny stuff like that.
5

�[sighs] So, once I found out about House Street, I had been back and forth with David O’Donnell
about the river story, you know, just sort of reporting that stuff out and I had followed the
[foyer?] request for, you know, Wolverine’s investigation — river investigation workplan, and
so once I found out about House Street, I called David O’Donnell and said “What are you doing
on House Street?”. This was like one of those “oh shit, caught us moments” because I had been
talking to him about Wolverine and the river and PFAS and all this stuff for weeks, but he never
mentioned that up in this neighborhood Belmont, nearby, we are investigating whether this stuff
is in drinking water and ground water around an old landfill that they used to use. And they had
been doing that — they started doing that in the spring.
DD: [hmm]
GE: So, months before Lynn McIntosh had ever emailed me, they had started doing work out
there. The reason that they had started doing work up there is because of the Kent County Health
Department, right, and — and there’s a big backstory there involving Lynn’s groups and trying
to get information to the DEQ and trying to get enough evidence to force them to start investing
this issue. There’s a woman at the health department named Sarah Simmons, who really played a
big role in sorting of forcing David O’Donnell to move up a timeline for investigating this —
this stuff there. He would’ve sat on that until 2018 or later, you know.
And so — [chuckles] so my phone call with David O’Donnell was very much like, “Oh, you
found out about that. Well, okay, why don’t you come on over to our office and I’ll sit you down
and tell you everything that’s going on there”. And so, he — I went over to the State Office
Building in Downtown GR [Grand Rapids], where the DEQ had it’s — Remediation Division
Office, and it’s just a walk from MLive’s office to the State’s Office downtown.
He put a map in front of me, you know, with like a color-coded — like oh here’s the property
with really bad — red [laughs] — where we think there’s really high levels [sighs] and it was
like “oh, man”. So, he laid it all out for me, so I had enough for a story, right? I have an official
source from the government confirming that there’s an investigation going on — here’s what the
investigation is about and here’s the properties, you know, that are at concern. But [sighs] you
know, [sighs] that’s — that’s like the bare minimum for a story like this and I wanted to get
some people who live in the — who live in the area, who live in the affected neighborhood.
And so, I was really — working hard to try and get like anyone on House Street. [chuckles] The
first story that I wrote doesn’t have anyone who lives on House Street. It had someone who grew
up on House Street — a woman named Brandy Glaskey who is actually a loose family
connection of mine — who is like [sighs] my grandma’s sister’s son’s wife. I think that’s third
cousin or something like that or something removed? I never really figured it out, but I
remember seeing her at family gatherings growing up anyway so somehow I put together
because we were like friends on Facebook that she grew – oh no I saw her name -I had gone
down the street, writing down all the -y’know knocking on doors but you know you are working
during the day, nobody is home, nobody is answering. Those people that do answer like don’t
want anything to do with a reporter, there was a pregnant woman answered, you know a pregnant
woman answered. I don’t remember the exact address but, there were these bottles of water like
6

�four little twenty-ounce bottles of water sitting there with like a note on top. And like you know pregnant woman answers with a little kid behind her, and I’m like thinking “oh man” you know,
contamination in the drinking water, its never good for -I mean pregnant women and kids are
vulnerable populations. So, you know everything just- you know shaping up that this was bad
news but. And so, I’m writing down addresses and and searching the people behind those
addresses and trying to find phone numbers and stuff to call them and figuring out who lives here
and sort of this sort of this basic investigative backgrounding work. And then I googled 18-50 –
It think [sighs] I didn’t google – no 1850 house street, and I put that together with Joel Stelt. And
I googled his name and an obituary popped up immediately, and it was recent. Like a year old,
2016. And it mentioned cancer? And it was like “oh no” you know? I mean it was just like one
of those -all the pieces are -all the red flags are just you know stacking up. [sighs]. So, I
eventually was able to get enough information out of DEQ, I was able to get a FIAO request with
a lot of old files, historical sort of records showing that yes Wolverine dumped here on this
property, and this was the dates, and there was a lot of old water resources commissions records
and stuff. And so, I had a lot information and I had a lot of experience with the chemicals and
what they can do and how far they can go and what the safety thresholds and stuff were, and who
the experts talked to about this stuff because I had spent a lot of time at -reporting wordsmith.
And so [sighs] the story about the river didn’t get a lot of attention, because that’s just the way it
goes with environmental stories you know if the impact is primarily to the ecosystem, its, and
ecological concern fore most. [DD agrees] people are upset about that sort of thing, get upset
about it, but the more of the mainstream reaction tends to just shrug at it. But when you write a
headline that says “toxic chemicals pollute drinking water” near old tannery dump, that gets
attention and so that story went up, [pauses] [typing is heard] August 30th, 2017, so, about a
week later, a week after the river story. And that was really the, you know, the sort of the damn
broke on Wolverine and on PFAS and Rockford and that’s when it became like WOOD TV and
all the TV stations suddenly jumped on it, you know Ken Kolker who is a former press reported
you know is camped out on house street trying to get [sighs] TV reporters are intrusive, print
reports we try not to be predatory but we are more the guy that comes up with you with the
notebook and is like “hey how is it going try not to be a jerk here with the camera” whereas the
TV reports are right in your face with the microphone you know they camp out on your lawn.
But that approach can be effective because Ken Kolker was the first one to get Sandy went
stealth actually to talk [laughs] I have bene calling and leaving voice messages and stuff before,
but I was just too early you know? [DD laughs] the first one and nobody wanted to deal with the
reporter but eventually when you deal with one its sort of like pandoras box is open and they
start to deal with all of them. [sighs] so [pause] you know that story goes up and pretty quickly
its- its big- its huge new right all the TV, all the Aps picking it, TV stations are doing stuff and
immediately they schedule, a big public town hall meeting on it and you know it’s like, it’s a
different thing you know? Chemicals in the river, that’s generally a concern for people who like
a limited population right? People who eat the fish, [DD agrees] um, the chemicals in drinking
water, that you know, that freaks people out rightly so. That’s a major problem. And it being that
it wasn’t just the chemicals in drinking water, it was like these sort of new unregulated chemicals
that people had never really heard of and understood. They understood the products associated
but the underlying chemistry was a big mystery and its hugely complicated and you know this
one woman’s property has got record levels of this. Like the regulators are like “we have never
heard of anything this bad” right? 18.. what was it? [sighs and thinks] in the story it said that
27,000 parts per trillion in the well. Has the highest combined PFO as PFOA concentration the
7

�state health department toxicologist had ever seen in drinking water well. And that was just the
PFOS and PFOA number, not the total PFOS number, which ended up being much much higher
and subsequent testing showed you know just astronomically high levels. I think Sandy, that was
Sandy [unclear]. [DD agrees] and I think later on I mean its tested at 88.000 parts per trillion its
like pure scotch garden at that point. You know her husband was drinking that, and she was
drinking that, and you know and then he its like [sighs] its one of those situations where you
know as a reporter you always want a big story and then one lands in your lap and suddenly “ok
now you gotta do this well! And you need to be respectful and and and not be predatory about
it”. And you know so it was a delicate, delicate thing I think – I think I handled it pretty because
the first two -well the first three stories because there was a third one here. Hold up I have gone
back to you know years- you know the last few years to kind a like, read -reread through them, I
mean like there is a lot of really good information here that holds up still. [DD agrees] And so
part -one of the things that Lin Mackintosh had given me, one of the pieces of information -I
think like the most crucial piece of information she ever got, the best document she ever got, was
notarized in her view from my a truck driver -a dump -you know a guy that actually did the
dumping on house street. She had found him one of her fellow group members had done a
notarized interview with him, and that had they had given that to DEQ and that ended up being
[pause] a really key piece of evidence that really forced the state to start invest- forced the state
force Wolverine to start investigating around the house street dump. And so I had that too, you
know I knew that not just -the chemicals weren’t only here on house street, they were, he
dumped this stuff at a couple other places and so there was a third story um in that I was working
on as well, um, [clicking] I can’t remember the headline there. [pause] [sighs] [typing] ok so, on
September 7th I published the third story. Which is “Tannery waste dumped at landfill tied to
municipal water pollution.” So here I was kind of able to bring this stuff full circle in some ways
with the dump truck driver Earl Teft, he had said that we had dumped this stuff at house street,
we dumped this stuff at old dump on -off of 12 mile and Algoma. Kind of up the river from
Rockford, north of Rockford a little ways right on the river like a old dump on the river like,
what a terrible place to put a dump. And the state disposal land fill on the beltline south of at like
right there at four mile and [unclear] sort of like kitty corner of Robinette’s there a supper fun
site. Used to be an old dump. Thankfully its downgradient from the apple orchard. So, I looked
at that. You know cuz then you are like “oh my god” people are eating contaminated apples -but
they weren’t. And so that was able to tie the Wolverine dumping to the Plainfield township
municipal water issue. And that ended up being a really important thing because it sparked a lot
of online activisms that resulted in people showing up in droves at Plainfield township board
meetings demanding filtration and demanding something be done and that pressure for Plainfield
township responded to that pressure by seeking state grant money to install activated carbon
filtrations on their municipal water. And so that really kind of sparked the first [sighs] filtration
efforts? And on municipal water in Michigan it was sort of a pilot project which is you know
pretty, it created a water supply that could then be used as the solution you know that’s what’s
happening right now right so Plainfield townships water is filtered for these chemicals and now
they’ve extend -with the consent decree with Wolverine they’ve you know the company you
know and three [unclear] are paying for Plainfield township watermain extensions to
neighborhoods with polluted wells and stuff. So, it was like the first three stories in the span of
about two and a half, three weeks you know. Established Wolverine the polluter, problem with
the river, huge drinking water problem and ground water and Belmont and it’s tied to the
municipal water issue in Plainfield township AND there are probably more dump sites, right? So,
8

�it was all of these things came out in the span of a few weeks and they didn’t go through the
corporate PR downplay, spin washing machine, right? This was -there were no press conferences
there were no press releases. There was no filtration of the news through you know the the
through the government [sighs] or the corporate sort of polluter lens before it reaches the public,
it was just pure information straight from primary sources and it was really strong reporting. And
it at point -the community there was no denying it. Wolverine could not put the genie back in the
bottle. And it, you know sort of spun into this enormous search for dump sites around the
Rockford, northern Kent County area. And that turned up the woven jewel, Welling Ridge sorts
of area that’s almost in terms of concentrations strength. It’s almost worse than house street a lot
of people don’t know that. And it you know put a lot of pressure on the state government,
especially after Flint. This is still Rick Snyder’s administration and so his response is, well gosh
you know, I can’t be seen having another drinking water crisis, so you know he creates M Part,
which and and and in M parts first big mission is to test all public drinking water supplies around
the state. And what that does is it -that directly results in the discovery in contamination in
parchment, and you know it you know it would not of happen if Wolverine had not broken in
that way. If you know there hadn’t been enough -all this pressure being put on Lance and to act,
[sighs] [sighs] that’s kinda where it becomes a personal story to me in some ways because, the
work [sighs] on Wolverine and this story strained a relationship that was broken with my exgirlfriend. To the point of no return. We separated in December 2017. And That was very hard
and and she met somebody within a few months, and he happened to live in parchment, [laughs].
And so, in mid-2018 she moves to parchment with my daughter. Mid, maybe it’s, its summer
2018 and off the top my head I don’t remember the exact date but thankfully by that time they
had discovered the drinking water contamination, right. So, my daughter was in a you know, not
exposed to that stuff [DD agrees] you know at that point I am really thankful for that, right?
Because without all of this stuff happening, you know she’d have gotten down here and [pauses]
you know I mean its high levels in the municipal water, they react really strongly to what
happened in parchment, and they turn that- I mean they got the test and turned the tap off at the
plant that day. And so that’s a weird you know, its sort of this roundabout way they I like kinda like I didn’t -I’m not Rick Schnyder, I didn’t make the state do this statewide water testing. But I
do believe the that the way the news broke around Wovlerine and Rockford and sort of the
community response to it and the fact that this stuff came out, [hand chopping] boom boom
boom, like really solid reporting on this came out without a bunch of government or PR spin on
it, forced a lot of action [DD agrees] I think that’s one of the more consequential actions that
forced and and it did end up protecting the things that I love the most [laugh] so that’s, that’s a
good feeling in that -that sense.
DD: Can IGE: [stretches and laughs] I feel like I have been talking for a while [laughs]
DD: You have, but that’s okay.

9

�GE: Did I -you know there is more to all -like there is more detail I could definitely like go back
in and fill out detail on this stuff, [pause]. But [sighs] it oh [laughs and clears throat]. There is
one interesting element to -to kind of go back to this point where [clears throat] I am just
discovering this stuff, starting to report it as seek information about the Wolverines use of the
chemicals and what’s going on with the river and what not. Back in August 2017, [sighs] one of
the very first things I did, I almost the first thing I did after Lin Mackintosh identified Wolverine
worldwide Tannery. As I sent a FOIA request from the DEQ for you know its investigation -I
think it was -excuse me- [tisk] I forget the wording -exact wondering about a FOIA, it was
information about what Wolverine was doing to investigate FPAS in Rockford. And that FOIA
request [laughs] you know through subsequent FOIA requests in in you know reporting and stuff
I [sighs] that FOIA request really hit a fire, under the state and Wolverine and I David O’Donald,
I caught him before he gave me – FOIA materials to me, he gave them to Wolverine’s attorney a
day prior. [DD agrees] Which is a no- no, you do not do that, I mean that was the kind of thing
that never like I never fit it in any of the initial stories because it was seemed to be this sort of
behind scenes inside baseball stuff that wasn’t directly relevant to the matter at hand which was
drinking water contamination and health threat. It was you know corporate regulatory issue; you
know involving the media. I was able to kind of, some oblique references to it in later stories, but
that was how I knew that David O’Donald isn’t a voice right actor in this point right. You know
the guy that is in charge of- you know overseeing the regulatory response is giving -media FOIA
requests to the polluter before he gives them to the media. That’s an issue and that’s a big
transparency shown, -it may just of sort of hammer home when Mackintosh has is saying to me
at this time which is in some respect, going back to now this stuff sounds a bit extreme. And then
you deal with something like that, and you are like “wow okay so there really is some bullshit
going on here” [computer notification] So that’s an interesting piece of this you know
DD: Yeah
GE: There is more things like that, but I am thinking of writing a book [laughs] with this whole
issue.
DD: Wow
GE: These initial interviews and [sighs] outlining and chapter and it’s a lot of work it’s a lot of
work to write all report and write all day and you know.
DD: And then write some more.
GE: Yea [laughs] so I haven’t moved very far on that but there is just so much there that I don’t
know how there really just is no other way to present it besides just documentary film or
10

�something like that it needs to be some sort of big, [sighs] you know substantial, depth, of [DD
agrees] presentation for this matter because I am newspaper reporter and I can do long form
stories and I can do regular updates and stuff but they’re all there is a limit to the newspaper
format [DD agrees] and so I try to work the best I can within those limitations but there is still
like like if she got -its been a few years at this point and you know there is, there is a lot of
details around this story that you either have to know or know how to google search you know a
whole bunch of old stories to find and stuff you know so I’d like to just, I’m really interested in a
presentation that puts it all in one place.
DD: Yea, that sounds fascinating I would read slash watch it.
GE: Yea? Well, I hope but thank you. There is a kid working on a documentary eh he is a film
maker in Ypsilanti. He kind of started working on it a few years ago and I have been trying to
help him but he is kind of doing it on a shoe string but its not moving very quickly but you know
I -it its an interesting story -I I I find the Wolverine story is -has a lot of drama [DD agrees] it
effects a lot of people, chem- but its you know and in that respect its -its [sighs] you know its not
like the military, where you know at an air force base -sorry about the pulsing black that’s there
it’s the back lighting, like at an air force base, you’ve got the military they use this A FFF triple
fighting foam, that creates the contamination there.
It’s a different thing then when a company, you know, like Wolverine, which is this huge, global
footwear company, headquartered in the same small town Kent County area, that it was birthed
from, you know, it’s this sort of company town aspect to it, you know, pollutes the environment
and the people in it’s hometown, right, in it’s backyard. It’s a different stor- I mean the
contamination is the same, the result is the same. I mean if you’re drinking it because the
military used AFFF foam and that’s how the groundwater polluted versus Wolverine Worldwide
dumps scotts yard waste into an unmined landfill and that’s how the groundwater polluted. I
mean if-if-if- you’re the affected person it doesn’t really matter. I mean you’re- I mean guess
maybe it does in terms- if you want to get and sue them or something. You know you can’t sue
the military basically. But in terms of storytelling and narratives and you know sort of things
like that, the Wolverine Rockford story is much more compelling and I think it grabs people’s
attention in a different way than a lot of the military contaminations, because I think when it
comes to military there’s- people aren’t conflicted you know it’s like well this is the military weyou know- we support our troops. You know it’s hard for people to grasp the notion that- thatinstitution would be a bad actor.
DD: “Mhmm”
GE: “Versus you know a copr- major corporation. It’s almost like people just sort of expect you
know, that sort of thing, right? You know, when profits, you know are on the line and- you
know that’s the way business is done, you know kind of thing.
11

�DD: “Mhmm”
GE: “There’s differences there in terms of, you know the residents I guess of the story.
DD: “mhmm, absolutely. Yeah. So for you, after this kind of really intense period of reporting,
what happened for you after that? Like as- as- in your work with PFAS? Did it have an impact
for you moving forward or was this kind ofGE: “Yeah. [chuckles] I- so- it never stopped for me. It still hasn’t stopped for me. It’s- It’s been
PFAS almost continuously since then. In fact, mLive recognized, thankfully, with a little bit of
cajoling, sort of the mLive busts recognized this was- we were- we were way ahead of something
that you know most other media outlets around the country hadn’t figured out yet. And so theynot only did they keep me on the story, the PFAS story, Wolverine, Rockford, all of that, but
statewide and nationally, they added somebody so I started working with another reporter named
Paula Gardner in early 2018. And, you know, because the M part situation quickly snowballed
into statewide testing and now, we’re looking into wastewater, which, you know, is a huge
pathway for the chemicals into the environment. Suddenly there’s a ton of interest and audience
for this stuff in Michigan, and so and we had been doing great work on it, so, you know, there
was about a two and a half, three year period where I wrote about nothing besides PFAS. Which
is remarkable for a newspaper. You know it- it- just doesn’t really happen anymore. Especially
in a time of consolidation in the media where everybody, you know, even specialists, are forced
to do more generalist type stuff. It, you know, it’s still looking back, shocks me that I had A) I
was writing about more or less one story, one subject for several years and I was doing it with
someone else who was doing the same thing, it wasn’t like oh she’s going to help you part time,
it was you two are a team and this is your subject and we- really proud of the work we did over
2018 and 2019. We really followed the drinking water testing and the results closely and it had a
pretty big- it had some residence with Gretchen Witmer, who started talking about drinking
water on the campaign trail a lot. It was like ‘fix the damn roads and clean up the drinking water’
like those were the two things. And so, when she gets elected, suddenly the process of
developing drinking water standards is initiated. The groundwork had been laid under Rick
Snyder, but nobody was expecting him to follow through with a regulatory process that, you
know, imposes cost burdens on a regulated community, that’s just not what Republicans do.
When she gets elected, you know, Whitmer’s a Democrat and she initiates the process for setting
PFAS drinking water standards, you know, and now we have those. I threw some- just talking to
people in this community, I remember talking to a donor, a Democratic donor, who is heavily
involved in PFAS issues in Michigan. He- he tells me this story of you know, one of my- you
know he’s at like a town hall presentation, like a- like a- campaign appearance with Whitmer
and, you know, he gets an alert, and it’s one of my stories, it’s about like the first big results of
drinking water testing around the state, you know showed, you know, if you total up the
12

�population of the systems with PFAS in them it’s about 1.5 million people are being served by
filter systems right, so you know, that’s the headline. And so, he takes that headline over to
Whitmer after their appearance, and she reacts pretty strongly to it. This is per my source but,
you know, all of her actions today around PFAS, you know back that up that she took it pretty
seriously. So that was nice. Anytime as a reporter you can point to policy action, you know,
especially in the public health realm where people are being protected against a danger and a
threat, you know that feels really good. That’s what journalism is supposed to do, right? I mean
it’s sort of the larger importance of you know, journalism and what the news media can do and
you know this is [chuckles] and this is all happening in the Trump era, you know where at
nationally journalists are being, you know, vilified as enemy of the people, you know,
interestingly I never experienced that. You know, most of the Trump years I spent writing about
this issue
DD: “mhmm”
GE: “And just the amount of appreciation I’ve received from people who are affected by it or
interested in it. I mean… overwhelming. You know, you get emails as a journalist, you get hate
emails. If you’re writing about politics much more than about environmental issues, but I get
some. Just the ratio is very much [chuckles] way way way way more people writing like ‘thank
you’ emails versus you know what are you some kind of liberal doom sayer kind of stuff. So
that’s been really encouraging. Right? It’s the kind of thing that, you know, makes the editors,
you know, happy, your bosses happy, they can kind of sell the newspaper on that, a little bit on
that. Look at what we’ve done, and here we got this guy, buy a subscription. And so that helps…
job security. [chuckles]
DD: [chuckles]
GE: So yeah, I guess it’s a long way of answering your question, but yeah, I expect to be writing
about PFAS for the rest of my career, you know, it’s like, every- you know, you talk to scientists,
and you talk to experts and they’re like it’s the new PCB’s, it’s the new bestest, it’s the new this
and that, you know and those things are still around, and those things still make the news now
and then. I mean, I’m here in Kalamazoo, not far from the Kalamazoo River where, you know,
there’s still dredging, sediment dredging going on from all the PCBs in the river from the paper
making, you know, industry. They call that legacy, you know pollution. I jus-You know, PFAS
is clearly on that sort of trajectory of being, you know, like it’s an issue that-, you know like
PCBs, there’s clearly an effort to get it out of products where it’s not necessary, clean it up from
the environment, more strictly regulate its uses, you know and that sort of thing. And because
there is so much going on with it, there’s a lot to keep track of. And because that’s where my
expertise has kind of been developed I kind of have to follow that. Which in some regards,
creates a conundrum for me because I would write more about things like Climate Change, or
13

�Environmental Justice, which are really hugely important topics, but I have to kind of play a little
bit of triage with my time because I go well, you know those things are being covered pretty well
by other reports in Michigan and nationally. This is something that I have a lot of experience and
knowledge in, and you know, I can do the most good by following that path, you know, instead
of, you know, go where the herd is going.
DD: “mhmm”
GE: “But that’s hard to explain to some people, you know in Ann Arbor who are very upset
about, you know rightfully so, climate change. And so, you know, over the years I’ve had to kind
of say, you know look I can’t do everything, and this is the one I’m kind of following and I’ll get
to climate change when I can. There are other really good reporters, it’s not like that topic isn’t in
the news.
DD: “Yeah. Well, I know, we’ve talked for the hour I’ve told you we would talk, and I want to
be respectful of your time, and I’m sure you’re busy.
GE: “Well, if you have more questions, I’m happy to answer them because right now you’re
keeping me from a staff meeting which I am all about that.”
DD: “Well I have one more question.”
GE: “Okay.”
DD: “Given your expertise, and all this experience. What are your concerns about PFAS
contamination moving forward, either, you know, from human perspectives, personal
perspectives, from work perspectives, what are your concerns about PFAS contamination
looking into the future?”
GE: “I guess my concern is that people become kind of a nerd to it, before there is very strong
national regulations to keep them safe from- from this stuff. You know, and I think that is a big
concern among the activists, community and some lawmakers who are trying to push for national
drinking water standards. I don’t know if I have a great perspective on that because I’m in
Michigan, which, you know over the last few years really learned- you know there’s a collective
knowledge about it in Michigan to a much higher degree compared to states like Ohio even, well
I guess not Ohio because they had the parkersburg, but other Great Lake states, and other states
around the country where the testing hasn’t been done to show that, you know, it’s ‘Yes’ it’s
ambiguous to the environment, it’s probably in some drinking water. You know, I guess last year
during 2020, when the pandemic hit and everything, you know Covid was the only thing people
were paying attention to, it was certainly the only thing that news editors cared about, you know
14

�followed by racial strife, you know in the summer, it was sort of- frustrating to have watched
interest amongst the readership as well as, you know, your bosses just [plane noise] nose dive on
that and I think we’ve gotten to a place now in 2020 you know where people are vaccinated and
life seems to be kind of resuming in a normal fashion, where PFAS issues are kind of coming
back and people are paying attention to that again. I can see it in the numbers on a particular
headline, because we get- we can see how many people are reading stuff. There is the other
concern that we keep replacing the chemicals that are in use now with newer versions of the
same stuff. That’s what they’ve been doing right? Like PFOS has been phased out and so they
bring in PFBS which is the same thing it just has a different number of Carbon atoms. It’s
supposedly safer right? Well, is it? Probably not, right? We’ve talked to health experts and
they’re like well it’s not any less toxic. It may not persist in the environment quite as long, but
you know, you still shouldn’t be drinking that. And so there’s, you know, this sort of issue with
manufacturing of these chemicals, which are obviously lucrative, and so it’s like as the problem
evolves in this sort of industry, you know, looks to kind of keep that gravy train going, how does
it evolve in a way- will it evolve in a way that we can kind of keep track of it and make sure that
it’s not getting into the environment again or are we going to be repeating this years down the
road. I remember even in the midst of Wolverine and all of this stuff breaking, people going
‘what’s the next PFAS going to be?’ and I’m like the next PFAS? Let’s deal with this PFAS right
here instead of worrying about what the next thing is, but now I look back on that and think well
that’s probably a smart thing to be worried about, right? Maybe we should be having that
conversation now while this is happening versus ignoring it, you know, until we discover a new
problem down the road. Those would be- I’ll probably think of a better answer once [laughs] we
hang up, and I’ll be like oh there’s this thing. I wonder what it all means for people in general
like what is the larger outcome of this science experiment that we’ve been playing on the human
population with, you know, mutagenic chemicals that affect people’s DNA? What does that look
like 50, 100 years down the road? What’s the world going to look like when my daughter is
older, and she’s grown up? Those are things I think about too.
DD: “Yeah. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven’t
touched on today? Or anything you’d like to go back to? I know there’s hoodles of things you
could say but- “
GE: “Oh so much. You know, I- there’s a guy named Bob Delaney, who you may have heard of.
Who really deserves just all the credit in Michigan for- and in some ways nationally, for being
sort of the one who was out there kind of shouting that this was a problem, years before anyone
was in a position to be able to understand that, or to acknowledge that. And he- you know, when
I first called him about [?] in 2016, I didn’t know who Bob Delaney was. He’s a geologist, he’s a
state scientist, well he’s retired now, at the time he was the state’s lead site manager for [?] and I
expected that phone call to be ignored or to get an email back saying you know what you need to
contact the PR people in order to set up an interview, in the way a lot of State and Federal
15

�employees do when a reporter calls, they’re like uhhh talk to the PR guy, but he didn’t do that.
He recognized that what I was doing was important and he talked to me. And talked to me very
frankly about the issue, and that was so different than most interactions you have as a reporter
when talking to a government official. Without that, none of this would have happened I think in
terms of the reporting and the stories and what not. Because I would- you know, the way he
explained it to me and the knowledge I gained from him was absolutely crucial, to knowing that
you’re on solid ground as a journalist on a topic you’re unfamiliar with, you know, you need
sources you can trust, who are credible. If you have those, that's gold. He was that. I mean I can’t
say enough about how important that was in order to, you know- because you know, writing
about this sort of thing, you’re going to get people who try to knock it down right? And there’s
going to be big, powerful institutions, you know, Wolverine Worldwide, 3M, attorneys for major
law firms- they’re going to pick it apart, they’re going to, you know, try and find problems with
it and I’m not a PhD, you know, I feel like I’m a smart enough guy, but I need to be able to trust
the scientists who I’m talking to who are saying this is a huge problem, it’s worldwide, we’re not
really dealing with it, here’s the potential health implications- I have to be able to trust they
know what they’re talking about, and Bob Delaney did. He just deserves all the credit in the
world for being, not only smart enough to figure out that this was an issue and start looking for it
and taking actions to try and spur protections for people, as well as being open enough about it to
speak to the media, and speak to journalists, and trust that they’re- you know, trust that process,
you know, trust that that is still a valid way of getting good information out to the public-”

16

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                    <text>Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Gary Pettyjohn
Date of Interview: 7/28/2021
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, July 28, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Gary
Pettyjohn. Hi, Gary.
Gary Pettyjohn: Hello, how are you?
Danielle DeVasto: I'm doing well. How are you?
Gary Pettyjohn: Uh, we're freezing up a little bit here. Soon as you started recording, it started.
Danielle DeVasto: Oh, yep, my internet connection is unstable.
Gary Pettyjohn: Oh, okay, so it's you, not me.
Danielle DeVasto: It's me. Yeah, it's me.
Gary Pettyjohn: Okay.
Danielle DeVasto: I'm even hard wired in.
Gary Pettyjohn: Oh, interesting.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, it's unfortunate. Um, am I sounding better to you now?
Gary Pettyjohn: It is.
Danielle DeVasto: Okay, I'll just- I'll just start over, I guess. Uh, I'm Dani DeVasto and today, July 28,
2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Gary Pettyjohn. Hi, Gary.
Gary Pettyjohn: Hello.
Danielle DeVasto: Gary, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live?
Gary Pettyjohn: I currently live in Northville, Michigan, uh, but I was born and raised in Grayling,
Michigan, uh, north, in northern Michigan, uh, near the Camp Grayling, uh, uh, National Guard Army
training site so.
Danielle DeVasto: And you said you currently live in North?
Gary Pettyjohn: Northville.
Danielle DeVasto: Northville. So—
Gary Pettyjohn: Yeah.
Danielle DeVasto: —I'm still learning some of my Michigan geography. [LAUGHTER]
Gary Pettyjohn: Oh, no worries, it's on, uh, it's in southeast Michigan.
Danielle DeVasto: Okay, how long have you lived in Northville?
Gary Pettyjohn: Uh, in Northville about three-and-a-half years. Before that, my wife and I lived in South
Lyon, Michigan. It's over by Brighton, uh, north of Ann Arbor, for close to 25 years so.
Danielle DeVasto: All right.
Gary Pettyjohn: So.
Danielle DeVasto: Gary, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your
community?
Gary Pettyjohn: Yeah, I- I, you know, my experience with PFAS all centers aro-, centers around where I
grew up. Um, I had heard of PFAS, you know, in the news most- mostly related to either Oscoda or, uh,
you know, at- at around the Air Force base there, Portsmouth, and, uh, and over on the west side of the
Page 1

�state around was it Rockford, um, I believe. Um, so, I mean, those were the most noteworthy PFAS
stories I had heard of. Um, but back in, uh, 2017, 2018, uh, I was driving home from work and, uh,
listening to NPR, as I usually did, and I had one of those NPR moments where the story just grabbed me
because it was a story about PFAS, and then they mentioned Grayling. And that, you know, perked my
ears up. [LAUGHTER] I, um, I, and, uh, I got home, I stayed out in the car, listened to the rest of the
report, came in, ate dinner, and got on the internet. And, uh, you know, the rest, they say, is history. Um,
it was just, uh, it was like going down a rabbit hole, you know, because, um, it just kept getting worse and
worse the more I, the more I looked into it until I found a heat map that, uh, that the military had put out.
Uh, and then there's two, there's two groups that are dealing with Grayling. There's the military and
they've got this RAB group, um, that's dealing with the PFAS contamination. And then you've got the state
of Michigan in part doing their thing. Um, I, you know, I wasn't aware of either. Um, but I found this heat
map and, uh, and, you know, the- the green and yellow and red dots all around the airfield, which is, you
know, the area that I grew up in. I grew up in, um, uh, two separate homes that were in the testing area,
and, you know, there were yellows and reds and, you know, a few greens sprinkled in there. But I- I also
know that even though we lived in town, we had a private well, and, you know, and so that was, that was
concerning . Um, uh, these heat maps showed, you know, where the PFAS was flowing, and it was like
flowing right through my backyard, you know. Um, so, you know, that's- that's- that was the beginning of
my awareness [LAUGHTER] of, uh, PFAS, and- and then I started, you know, wondering about, you
know, all the health issues that my family's had. Uh, my mother, when she was in her late 40s, um, uh,
needed her appendix removed, and they did a biopsy on it, and there was some rare form of cancer in
this, in this appendix. So, they, um, you know, she did, you know, did a- a round of treatment, and, um,
and ironically, the day that she was declared terminal was the day she got a notification that she was
cancer-free. I don't know how that works, but, uh, [LAUGHTER] I, uh, uh, it just one of those ironic things.
Um, so it, you know, it- it took, she had about five years from the initial diagnosis to when she- she
passed away. Um, right about the same time, my father became ill. He had turned jaundiced, and so he
went into his physician, and he told him to go immediately up to, uh, the medical center up in Petoskey,
Michigan. Um, uh, and, you know, they ran tests and couldn't determine what was causing it, um, so they
did exploratory surgery. They opened him up, they went in and they found, um, tumors, pre-can- is what
they call pre-cancerous tumors on his pancreas and then on his liver, and they performed a procedure
called a Whipple. And, you know, if anybody's curious about it, Google it. It's, uh, [LAUGHTER] it's almost
medieval what they do, and they don't, they don't use that procedure very much anymore becausebecause of the horrible side effects of it. Uh, but they, you know, they basically removed part of his
pancreas as part of his liver, sections of his, you know, bowels, part of his stomach, and then they
somehow plumb it all back together. And, uh, um, and, you know, true to what I, the research I had done
on Google about the Whipple, uh, he had terrible side effects. He had, he suffered from pancreapancreatitis attacks, uh, on a regular basis. Uh, they finally got that a little under control with his
medication the he had to take like once a month with a syringe. This, you know, it looked like it was

Page 2

�meant for horses. Uh, used to get these shots, um, to try to keep his pancreas under control. Um, but hishis liver slowly, uh, you know, basically disintegrated, and, you know, cause of death was cirrhosis of the
liver. Um, I mean, he did have, you know, he lived with that for about 20 years. So, I mean it wasn't an
immediate, um, immediate thing like it was for my mom, but, uh, you know, it certainly wasn't much quality
of life. You know, constantly, uh, being afraid to get too far away from the hospitals because, you know,
he had a bad experience going into a- a different hospital they didn't know his history, and, uh, you know,
they really messed him up. Um, so he was always afraid to venture too far from home. Um, and, you
know, I've, you know, I, in high school I developed asthma, which was, you know, doctor back then said it
was kind of strange that, you know, that I developed asthma, you know, that late in life. Um, you know,
I've had, uh, I was hospitalized once with vasculitis and I- I was at U of M Hospital for, you know, almost
over a week, and they would bring in the- the- the wannabe doctors and to- to poke and prod me because
they never seen anything like it. And I came out of it with a diagnosis of Crohn's disease. Um, I don't- I
don't- I don't think I had Crohn's disease. I think I had, you know, some kind of inflammation in the bowel,
but I don't think it was Crohn's disease. I have a cousin that has Crohn's disease, and, you know, I've
seen what it's done to him, so I'm pretty sure I don't have that. But, you know, they did the best they
could. So, you know, and my sisters, both of my sisters have had, uh, children with autism. Uh, one- one
child was born with cerebral palsy. Uh, and, you know, my- my- my one sister had- has one severe
autistic child, one I'd say mildly, uh, another one that's probably on the spectrums, like an Asperger's
type. Um, and the oldest girl, I, you know, I think she's, uh, she's been, you know, pretty healthy. But so I
mean, you just, you go back [LAUGHTER] and you- you learn about this PFAS chemical that likely was in
your water when you were growing up. You know, one of the frustrating things for me has been as a
nonresident, you know, [LAUGHTER] you know, I requested and- and, uh, information about any of the
testing that they had done at the house where I used to live, and, uh, and I was told that that was, you
know, that was not gonna happen, that, you know, I- I didn't live there so, therefore, they wouldn't release
those- those figures to me. Um, so, you know, that's- that's been a little frustrating. Uh, I think something
that's sorely lacking in- in- in these conversations is, you know, what about the people that used to live in
the house that's been found to have PFAS? And I understand that priority number one is, you know,
identifying where it is, and, you know, get clean water to those people, whether that's through filtration or
through hooking them up to municipal water supplies or- or whatever- whatever's got to happen. I
understand that that's the first- the first priority, but, um, you know, it's- it's like if you lived there, if you
lived there, you know, your- your exposure doesn't count. You know, that's kind of the way I feel about it.
Uh, I had joined the, MPART started a, uh, a Citizens- what, a Citizens Advisory Workgroup, um, and, you
know, in hopes of getting more information and, you know, it turned into, in my opinion, I don't know, it's
just kind of a bureaucracy. And, you know, I attended a year's worth of meetings and it was going
nowhere, so, you know, I politely said, you know, I'm out. Um, so, I've been rambling. [LAUGHTER] I, you
know, I, uh—

Page 3

�Danielle DeVasto: Where did you go from there after MPART, or what have- what- what for you was the
story at that point?
Gary Pettyjohn: Um, you know, I- I just, I kinda, I'm- I'm obsessed. I have a thumb drive that's full of, you
know, everything from, you know, news articles to scientific papers to, uh, just anything you could
imagine. I spent a week downloading all the- all the documents, uh, related to the Minnesota vs. 3M, uh,
lawsuit that they concluded in 2018 or 2019. Uh, the attorney general for the state of Minnesota, uh,
kindly put all those out there so for everybody to see. That's been very interesting. Um, you know, I
monitor the- the- the RAB, the military side of, you know, Grayling's remediation and test, you know,
water testing activities. And, you know, any- anything that MPART puts out, I'm still on the mailing list, so I
get all the e-mails. Um, so, you know, it's, it- it- it, I guess I- I don't know anything for sure. I don't know
that- that our water had PFAS in it. I- I don't, you know, it's- it's a tale of, I don't know, I guess. Um, I find it
hard to believe that we weren't impacted given all of the health issues, um, especially, you know,
especially with my dad. One of the- one of the PFAS issues is, you know, liver, panc-, you know,
pancreas, kidney- kidney type problems. He certainly qualified for that. But, uh, um, you know, I'm angry.
I'm angry that, you know, that these chemical companies knew what, you know, that- that these were
toxic chemicals, and, um, and touted 'em as some miracle, you know. Uh, some miracle product that
would put out, you know, fires from, you know, crashed aircraft and, you know, fuel fires, things like that.
And, you know, I can remember growing up, uh, seeing plumes of smoke coming from, you know, the
airfield, and, uh, you know, they just used to, you know, light stuff on fire and put it out, you know,
weekend after weekend after weekend. So, you know, I, uh, I think there's something terribly wrong with
the chemical regulation process in the United States and probably throughout the world. The EU seems
to have their act a little bit better that we do. Um—
Danielle DeVasto: What problem is it that you think there is?
Gary Pettyjohn: Well, I, that- that they're allowed to use chemicals in manufacturing and, you know,
consumer products, and- and there's no responsi- they have no responsibility for figuring out what the
toxicity is, and how these chemicals move around in the environment, and if they're bioaccumulative. You
know, they, you know, they, you know, they came out in, uh, what 1976, they came out with the- the—I
forget the acronym. It's for- for the legislation, but it was supposed to tighten up regulation. But then they
grandfathered, like, 65,000 chemicals that were on the books at the time. You know, um, you know, the
chemical companies want to- want to vet, you know, one PFAS chemical at a time, but there's thousands
of, you know, it'd that the next couple centuries to- to figure out all the nasty effects from these chemicals.
But, you know, they're okay with that because, you know, they're making money all the time while, you
know, they're delaying, you know, they're running their delay tactics. You know, I- I don't, and- and PFAS
is not the only one. I mean, there's all kinds of chemicals out there I'm sure that are benefiting from the
poor, same poor regulatory structure that we have. Um, you know, in my mind, you shouldn't be able to,
you know, at least with the FDA, when they release a drug that they had to go through some testing. They
had to understand side effects, and document side effects, you know. But the chemical companies, they

Page 4

�can just Better Life Through Chemistry, and then, you know, people are left holding the bag. You know,
people get sick, people die before any action's taken. It just doesn't sit right with me. But, uh, so, you
know, I troll 3M, DuPont and ChemOrgs on Twitter. You know, every time they pet, you know, they
dislocate their shoulde- you know, what terrible citizens they are. [LAUGHTER] It's about all I can do, you
know. I write—
Danielle DeVasto: And you said and you, and you said you weren't aware of PFAS before you heard that
NPR show, right?
Gary Pettyjohn: No, no, and my sister still lives in, you know, she's actually lives in my, the last house
that my dad owned in Grayling. And even that house is- is inside of- of the testing area. Um, the house is
only, I'd say, maybe two miles from the airfield, but it's- it's not, it's- it's not in the- in the flow as the
geologists have- have, uh, identified of the PFAS plume. But, you know, but she- she lives in that
community still. And I called her up and I'm like, why didn't you say anything? And she's- [LAUGHTER]
she's like, "Oh yeah- yeah, I heard of PFAS. They've been drillin' wells up and down our road." And, uh,
so, um, I, you know, I gently tried to get her to do a little research on her own, you know, just to try to
understand what it's- what it's about, and, um, you know, my sisters are 15 and 17 years younger than
me, um, so, you know, my- my mom after I was born, she miscarried a couple of years later, and then she
was told she would never have children. And something corrected itself, [LAUGHTER] uh, and my- my
oldest sister came along you know, they didn't grow up in- in those houses. They- the only one that they
grew up in were- was the last one that my sister lives in now. So, but, I mean all the studies say that it's
passed from, you know, mother to child. So, you know, if my mom had high levels of PFAS in her, likely,
you know, they were impacted, um, you know, and we're all- we're all exposed to it to a certain degree,
uh, as it's been shown that, you know, every American, you know, virtually every American had some
level of PFAS in their blood, um, so, in addition to these extra exposures, you know, by people that arethat live near air bases or live near these- these chemical company facilities that, uh, get a lit- little extra,
uh, you know, we're all continually- continually exposed, so I, you know, it's—I, uh, read that, uh, Robert
Billot, I read his exposure book, you know, and, you know, it didn't help my attitude towards __________
00:01:27. [CHUCKLE] I'm sure that was the intent, uh, but, you know, it's just, uh, I don't know, it's- it's
been frustrating.
Danielle DeVasto: I know.
Gary Pettyjohn: I just, there's, and I doubt that I'll ever get any answers, you know. So.
Danielle DeVasto: Well, you might have touched on this a little bit, but what concerns do you have about
PFAS contamination moving forward from this point?
Gary Pettyjohn: Uh, just the glacial pace of- of, you know, trying to get the EPA to do anything about it,
you know, the last four years, and nothing was going to happen on PFAS, so, you know, as soon as the
2016 election was over, I was [CHUCKLE] pretty much, you know, that was a done deal, but, uh, um, you
know, I- I'm just—I think at its core, you know, this is just another example of, you know, a poor regulatory
system, you know, a poor that allows chemical companies to create chemicals in the lab, find a use for it,

Page 5

�and, you know, they just put it out there and, you know, it basically turns us all into lab rats, you know,
um, and once they start identifying, you know, people start going, "Hey, we live next to this __________
00:03:16 plant and, you know, everybody's coming up with testicular cancer and, you know, liver
problems and all this stuff," and, you know, people start putting two and two together all of a sudden, you
know? Yeah. And then they fight you tooth and nail, so, to prove it and I don't know why it's incumbent on
us, you know, as- as citizens, to prove that your product is harming, you know. Uh, you know, the terrible
thing about, you know, chemical contamination is there's no smoking gun. You know, it takes decades
sometimes for these cancers and diseases to- to manifest and, uh, I mean, trying to prove causation is- is
very difficult and, um, you know, it's just- it's, I- I don't understand why they don't have to prove that their
product is safe before—or if it's not safe, then let everybody know it's not safe and don't let it be
discharged into, you know, surface waters, you know, used indiscriminately, [LAUGHTER], you know. Uh,
you know, I can remember, uh, the local fire department in Grayling, uh, they used to have this,
[CHUCKLE] like at fourth of July or something, they had this big- big ball on a rope that they strung
across and then they had two fire trucks on either end and they were trying to force the ball over over the
line with- with the fire hoses and one year as an added special thing, they used this foam, [CHUCKLE]
sprayed down, you know, sprayed down everybody. People were playing in it. You know, you look back
on that stuff and you're like, oh, my God, you know, you're so ignorant. But there were people that weren't
ignorant, and that's- that's the disheartening thing, people knew. You know, some people tried to warn us
__________ 00:05:39, you know, but then they were just, you know, crank employees ushered away, you
know, but, you know, I think, you know, that's disappointing. It's disappointing that companies put profits
over people, you know.
Danielle DeVasto: There were people like that in Grayling, in your community, that you remember
growing up that tried to say things about the foam?
Gary Pettyjohn: No, no, no. Uh, people that worked within the chemical companies. If you read any of
it—and I found that out because of the 3M law, the Minnesota lawsuit against 3M, there were documents
in there that there was an employee that famously, you know, fired off a- a resignation letter and, uh, it
was funny because the anti PFAS people use that as a big example of, you know, here's somebody that,
you know- you know, tried to stand up to them- stand up to 3M and I guess event—you know, like a few
months later, he went back to work for 3M and ended up retiring from there. Now he grows organic
vegetables out in, you know, Iowa, somewhere, so- [LAUGHTER] so much for having a conscience, you
know. Maybe he- maybe he went back 'cause he thought he'd- he'd be able to make changes, but, um,
obviously not so much, you know. I mean, 3M knew that this stuff was bad, which is why they got out of
business. You know, they stopped making, they stop- stopped making, uh, you know, what was it PFOA,
was there a big thing, I think, uh, they stopped making it back in the early 2000s, uh, 'cause they knew.
[CHUCKLE] I'm sure their- their people told them, "You're gonna lose your shirt on this stuff if you don't
stop put it out there" So, they sold the patent rights to, uh, to DuPont, who had absolutely no problem, uh,
taking up the mantle and producing those terrible chemicals. So. [LIP SMACK] So. Yeah.

Page 6

�Danielle DeVasto: Well, before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we
haven't touched on or anything you'd like to go back to and say more about?
Gary Pettyjohn: No, I don't think so. Uh, that's my story, I'm sticking to it, I guess. [CHUCKLE] You know,
it's- it's not so much of a story as, uh, I wonder if there's a story there, you know. Again, I don't know that
I'll ever- ever get the answers I'm looking for, you know. Nobody can tell me what the PFAS levels were
like in my private well when I was growing up on 802 Plum Street in Grayling, Michigan, during the '70s,
you know. Uh, you know, don't know that I'll ever know. So.
Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Gary, for taking the time to talk with me and share your
story today.
Gary Pettyjohn: Sure. Thank you.

Page 7

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Korean War
Interviewee name: Donald Gary
Length of Interview: 1hour 1minute
Pre-Enlistment (00:45)
•

Childhood (00:50)
o Gary was born in Rochester, New York in 1930. (01:10)

•

Family (01:11)
o Grew up with 4 brothers and 1 sister. His father worked first as a landscaper but
when the Depression came along he ended up as a foundry worker. (01:57)
During this time his father had an unfortunate incident happen while Gary was in
the service. Between 53’ and 54’ a 750 pound piece of 2 by 10 foundry material
fell on his leg and shattered it. (02:40)

•

Education (03:10)
o Gary finished high school and then attended Davenport University. Discusses
how he moved out to Michigan and why he did so. (03:18)

•

Background to military service (04:55)
o Gary devotes quite a bit of attention to his other brothers’ military experiences.
One brother served with the National Guard of which he went to the Pacific.
(05:15)


Another brother was in the 101st Division in the Battle of Bastogne of
which he describes briefly. (05:57)



Also mentions that both survived the war and what happened to each of
them afterwards. (07:08)



A 3rd brother who had been in the Air Force went down to Panama and did
photography work. (08:09)

o Gary didn’t give much thought of serving until the war in Korea broke out.
(08:53) Joined the military voluntarily on December 9th, 1950. (09:04) He
mentions that he did not attend basic which was located at Lackland Air Force
Base, Texas but instead was held in Rochester, New York until January. On

�January 2nd he and 2 others were flown to the base which was located near San
Antonio, Texas, of which upon arriving he had the option of choosing which
branch he could join. (09:40)
Enlistment/Basic Training (09:48)
•

Why he joined (09:58)
o Joined the air force because he always had wanted to be an air force pilot. (10:07)
o Discusses his first impressions of flying in an airplane since he had never flown in
his life before that time. (11:09)

•

Where he went and what company he served with (11:36)
o Briefly describes his first impressions of his training and of the instructors who
trained him. (11:50) Mentions that he adapted easily to basic training while others
got into trouble with girls. (12:50)


Discusses briefly what types of trouble and punishments new recruits got
into. (13:44)

o The men he trained with during his 3 week period there were both white and
black. The military at that time was desegregated. (14:31)


Brief history lesson on how the military had moved with the times where
as the state of Texas “was still fighting the Civil War.” (15:18)

o For a brief period during and after basic training he worked in the office in
Lubbock, Texas and describes his time there briefly. (16:05)


Discusses how he became qualified for his office position. (17:25)

Active Duty (18:05)
•

Where he went after basic training (18:06)
o Spent 8 months in Lubbock and expected to be shipped out to Korea at anytime.
(18:20)
o From there he spent some time in Wichita, Kansas. (19:07)


While in Wichita, for almost a year, he mentions how he met his wife and
that while there he served as a statistical specialist. Briefly describes his
responsibilities on base. (19:40)

�

Describes an encounter in some detail with a problematic sergeant who
was giving one of his black employees problems in the office. (21:58)



Also mentions how before he had come to the office there how relaxed the
atmosphere but then once he was there the office became so much more
efficient under his authority. (24:45)

o From Wichita, he spent a period of 3 months in Denver, Colorado taking a course
at a local university. (25:34)
o

•

Afterwards, he went back to Wichita for an extended period of time. (26:16)


While there, he talked with a friend who told him that he would soon be
shipped out to Ramstein Air Base, Germany with the 12th Air Force.
(26:45)



Before he heard that he was going to Germany he believed he was bound
for Korea all along. (27:23)

Germany (27:31)
o Background (27:32)


Gives a brief history background of the events of the Cold War and its
effects on Germany. (27:33)



Gary mentions that he was on the base defense team digging trenches and
practicing defensive measures. (27:40)



He was based at the 12th Air Force Headquarters Base at Ramstein,
Germany (28:00) Briefly describes the base he was stationed at in some
detail. (28:24)



He also mentions that the area and environment around Ramstein, this area
being around the Black Forest was very historic. (28:44)



According to his orders before he left for Germany he was supposed to
head to Wiesbaden, Germany but instead was ordered to Ramstein instead.
(30:32)



Briefly backs up and describes his November Atlantic crossing aboard a
bananas boat. Took 10 days to travel to Bremerhaven, Germany where he
boarded a train to get to his destination. (31:10)

�o While in Germany, he makes note of how the bigger German cities were repaired
fairly well while the smaller towns still showed signs of the affects of WWII.
(33:32)
o Gary would often when he went into town wheel and deal with many of the
German civilians. While on base, he mentions that Germans were responsible for
the cooking and the cleaning of the barracks. (34:46)
o During the German occupation, the U.S. dollars he possessed were converted to
Marks. (36:14)
o His main job while there his job was aircraft reporting which entailed compiling a
list of the condition of all aircraft belonging to the 12th Air Force. (37:34)
o Briefly mentions an incident of a CO-19 transport aircraft crashing in the Alps.
(38:39)
o Mentions that while in Wichita while being in charge of the record keeping that
he had maintained very good records. While in Germany however he didn’t do
any recordkeeping because it was handled by women in Germany. (40:44)
o Environment in the office (41:40)


Compared with his office experience in the U.S. to Germany he worked
with more women in Germany for a number of reasons which he details a
little a bit. (42:07)



Many of the men he worked with pressured him to become an officer of
which he didn’t agree to because it would mean prolonging his service
until age 65. (43:03)

o Briefly describes taking a military tour of Europe with a few of his buddies and
visiting the different American military bases around from Luxembourg down to
Rome, Italy. (44:33)
o Briefly mentions a story of a friend who could speak 5 languages and their time
with the USO while visiting Heidelberg. (47:28)
After the Service (49:10)
•

Returning Home (49:30)
o His military tour in Europe ended in December 1954. Gary mentions that he flew
home by airplane and landed in New York where his wife picked him up. (49:52)

•

Adjusting to Home (50:40)

�o After 14 months away, his wife was happy to see him. Mentions that he wasn’t
completed discharged until December 9th, 1954. (51:05)
o After arriving back, they went and lived in Rochester. (52:17)
o For the next 2 months, he and his wife went to the library and researched places to
live and finally decided on moving to Grand Rapids because it was well known
for its furniture. For Gary, he had always wanted to pursue a career in furniture.
(55:38)
o Attended Davenport University and upon graduating got a job working for Diesel
Equipment doing maintenance-type work (57:51)
o Briefly discusses his other career pursuits and attending Aquinas College studying
accounting. (59:26) Before long, he did some work in accounting.(59:45)
•

Reflection (59:54)
o Wraps up his interview by discussing what the military taught him about life and
people and the long-term benefits that it gave him. (1:01:21)

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview Notes
Length: 45:56
Lawrence Millard Gary
WWII Veteran
United States Army; November 1942 to March 1946
Infantry
(0:00) Info
-

Born January 1st 1932 (Says 1992, later clarified as '32)
Lived in Wheaton, IL
Was registered for draft, but volunteered to enter early

(2:42) Training
Entered at Fort Grant, IL
BCT at Camp House, TX
Unit was F Co 341st Infantry Regiment (86th "Blackhawk" Div)
Received Additional mechanics training at Ft Benning, GA and Amphibious
training in CA
(9:14) Deployments
Embarked NY, NY to Le Havre, France.
Deployed to Metz
Part of 4-Man vehicle recon team ambushed at intersection; German fixed
positions with interlocking fields of fire; Officer KIA, Gary wounded - no citation.
Sent to the eagle's nest, entire formation recalled to the U.S., assigned to Camp
Grubbers, OK
Assigned to the Philippines, VJ Day in route, secured isolated pockets of
resistance in northern Luzon
(25:45) Conditions
-

Discusses disparities in conditions between Officers and Enlisted
Hispanics in his unit, no negroes (not his exact words)
Discussed Patton and Eisenhower
Discussed pay and habits
Married 1 1/2 years out of service

(42:56) Various photos and documents

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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
GINGER GASCON
Women in Baseball
Born: Chicago, Illinois, 1931
Resides: Elk Grove Village, Illinois
Interviewed by: James Smither Ph.D, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 6, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 10, 2011
Interviewer: “Ginger, can we start off by you telling us a little bit about your
background. Where and when were you born?”
I was born in Chicago in 1931.
Interviewer: “Did you grow up in Chicago?”
I did, I grew up in Chicago.
Interviewer: “What neighborhood did you live in?”
We lived in a few different neighborhoods, one on the west side of Chicago, but the one I
remember the best is the one near Wrigley field, near Hawthorn school. I think we
moved there when I was about eight or ten and we stayed there until I was eighteen.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My dad was a truck driver and he use to drive paper goods to northern Minnesota and
Michigan and come back and deliver down to the Chicago Tribune building. My mother
was a housewife and she was an Irish immigrant. 42:48
Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep that job through the thirties?”
Whatever he did he was on “Papa Works Again” and he use to bring home Blueberry pie
and whatever his main work was I don’t know, but that’s what it was to keep the fellas
going and that was good
Interviewer: “Jobs were not always easy at that point.”

1

�Not at that point.
Interviewer: “How did you get involved playing sports?”
I happen to be the only girl in the neighborhood of all boys and that was from age ten on,
so if I didn’t play with them, I wouldn’t be playing with anybody. I started out on the
playgrounds and I played ball there and I was pretty good. I was one of the better ones
that always went off to the division meeting and everything.
Interviewer: “Were you playing in organized leagues?”
No, remember I was ten or twelve years old, but I had an uncle who was a cop and he
was a policeman on the gate at Wrigley Field and I only had about a six block walk down
there. 43:46 When he would see me, he would say, “come on, get in”, so I got to watch
Phil Cavarretta, Andy Pafko and those fellas and I just kind of fell in love with it from
playing—we started out with sixteen inch and fourteen inch.
Interviewer: “So, you’re playing softball in the street?”
Playing softball
Interviewer: “You were there in 1945, the last time the cubs were in the World
Series?”
Yes, I think so, but I don’t remember going to that World Series.
Interviewer: “You might have been in school by then?”
Yes, I think I was in school.
Interviewer: “It might have been a little bit harder to get in.”
Yeah, but when I was in school during WWII, they use to let some of us out of school to
go out and collect tine and things during the day and that was kind of fun to go around
the neighborhood and do things like that. When I got one of my first jobs I was the only

2

�girls in that district with all boys that delivered newspapers and that was nice because
some of the boys were a little lazy and they would ask me to take their route for the day
and I would make a few dollars there and I kind of liked that. 44:47
Interviewer: “All right, now at what point did you start to play more organized
ball?”
Fifteen, sixteen and there was a team, they were all farm teams for this all American
league, and I played on the North Town Debs and there was the south group of girls that
played too and when they created the Sallies and the Colleens, I went with the Sallies and
some of my friends went with the Colleens and we toured the United States. I know
you’ve heard that before, all the various cities and states.
Interviewer: “Right, so let’s back up a little bit to that first stage. How did you
wind up joining that first team?”
Joining the first team? They picked you, they looked for the best athletes and they picked
you.
Interviewer: “How did they find you or where did they locate you?”
On the playgrounds, it started on the playgrounds in Chicago.
Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing in an organized softball league or anything
like that?” 45:44
I was on a girl’s team in Chicago, but it was just eighth graders or something like that.
Interviewer: “But they were actually scouting the neighborhoods to go find people.”
Scouting the neighborhoods or they would here about and go and ask the athletic
directors and we did tryout for that, that’s right, we did tryout for those farm teams.
Interviewer: “Once you’re on one of those teams do you just live at home?”

3

�You live at home and go out three or four nights a week and on the week-end and play
each other in various parks in the city.
Interviewer: “What did your family think about that?”
They didn’t mind, they liked it and I was always very active and I had my paper route
and everything. I had two younger sisters, so they kind of looked up to me because I
would take them out to places with me, to different and various places.
Interviewer: “All right, were they paying you at that point?”
Let me see, when is the first time I got paid? On the traveling team in 1949.
Interviewer: “So, the first level of team you’re just playing?”
Yeah, you’re a farm team and you just show up and play. 46:47 No money involved,
just your skill level and all that.
Interviewer: “So, did you do that for one year or two or?”
Probably two years, I played for two years.
Interviewer: “How do you get up to the next level?”
That’s when you tried out, they had tryouts for the All Americans and that’s when they
picked you again from that group, so that’s how some of us got in.
Interviewer: “Where were they doing the tryouts?”
At the various parks around—in Skokie, the tryouts were there and see, Wrigley Field
had already had all the girls back for the first stage and now this comes five years later
and then the coaches came and looked at us and picked and put us, after we traveled and
di that for the year, they picked us to come to whatever teams and you probably heard
that story from other girls. The balanced the teams by skill level and whatever they
needed. 47:48

4

�Interviewer: “So, what was the year then that you started playing with the traveling
teams?”
1949 and in 1950 I came back and played with Chicago for a year, underhand fast pitch
with the Bluebirds and then I went back in 1951 to the Grand Rapids Chicks and finally I
settled in and played another three years with the Bluebirds because I could hold a day
job and play ball and I had two salaries.
Interviewer: “The Bluebirds, was that a semi-pro softball team?”
It was a pro team also, you paid to get in and we got paid. I started out with that team at
about a hundred dollars a week and went up to a hundred and a quarter. See, the all
Americans was fifty five and seventy five, but holding the day job was the bonus because
you had a double salary and that’s when I started saving money for college.
Interviewer: “Let’s go back to the farm team experience. Were there basically just
two teams that played each other or were there more?”
There were four, but I can’t remember the other two. I remember the Debs and the—
you’ll hear it from one of the other ladies, the team she played on. She was a southsider
and I was a northsider. 48:54
Interviewer: “Did fans come to these games?”
Oh yeah, the parks were full every night. Are you familiar with Chicago Thillens
Stadium on Devon and Lincoln Ave? The Thillens check cashing trucks? I don’t know
if you remember seeing them running around? They sponsored us, so they gave us the
money for uniforms and people came into the park at night and I think they were paying a
quarter or something.
Interviewer: “How do things change then when you join the traveling team?”

5

�When you join the traveling team, that’s the fun. You know you’re traveling to different
cities and meeting different people and you’re on the bus singing at night. It’s just the
excitement and the camaraderie of having all these friends around you all the time. You
think about high school and when high school days were over, that’s who your friends
are. Most of them don’t go to college and we had that extended into our twenties and we
still meet. I can’t think of any other group of people who still meet from when they were
in their teens. I just think we have been terribly lucky in that manner. It’s been a
wonderful thing. 49:55
Interviewer: “I think the closest you get, maybe in some cases, is with military
veterans. Men who served in the same unit, they have reunions, but in a way it
parallels a little bit because it’s a distinctive experience more than just going to
school someplace.”
It’s a shared experience.
Interviewer: “Right, and you’re at that point in your life that you’re becoming who
you really are too. That’s a very consistent thing that we’ve had in this. Explain a
little bit for people who don’t know very much about it, how did the traveling team
thing work? Who was on it, what happened?”
There were scouts with the All American, Max Carey and those fellas, they would go out
to the major cities in America or the ones they decided they could get some interest in,
and they would talk to the Chamber of Commerce and their press men and their sports
people and they would arrange for us to come in at certain dates, and they did it very well
because they started out in Chicago and went down to Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas.
50:56 Crossed over to Virginia and finally got back to New York and over Pennsylvania,

6

�so it was just play a game or two, get on the bus and go to the next town and play a game
or two. On Sunday it was two games, we use to play two games on Sunday, but we
stayed in different hotels and met different people. I remember in Michigan, Battle
Creek, when these fellas would carry our luggage to the hotel, you know from the bus
into and up to our rooms, we played music because we liked the rhythm and blues music
and they use to hangout in the halls with us and that was a lot of fun. It was almost like
you were dating groups, but it wasn’t really.
Interviewer: “Did you go to New York City as part of that?”
Yes, we stayed in Newark, New Jersey and we got on the train. I don’t know if anyone’s
told you this, but we had Mirtha Marrero and Isabel Alvarez and it just so happened I had
Spanish in high school, so I was the only one that could talk to them a little bit, so I took
them on the train from Newark into New York. 51:57 We went to the Palladium
because Mambo was popular at the time and then we went to the Empire State Building
and of course once they saw the guys at the Palladium they were in a different kind of
world than the rest of us, so I left them to go to the john and said, “don’t move, I’ll be
back”, and when I came back they were gone. They were gone for hours and hours and I
had to call back to the chaperone and say, “I lost the girls, they left me”, and so I got back
on the train by myself and they finally showed up, but that was kind of harrowing
because I felt responsible for them, but I couldn’t control them. 52:36
Interviewer: “Where did you play in New York?”
We were playing in Newark, New Jersey and that was in 1949 and they played in New
York in 1950, they played in one of those fields.
Interviewer: “At some point they played in Yankee Stadium.”

7

�We didn’t, the 49ers didn’t, but the 50ers did.
Interviewer: “What other places you stopped at stands out in your memory or have
particular stories connected to them?” 53:03
When I think of Oklahoma, I think of the soil and the weather and how it was different
and some of the other states. Virginia, the natural bridge and the places I saw that I
wouldn’t have seen in my life, stood out to me. Ball playing, it was just exciting to play
at night and to have the fans come. They always hung around and wanted autographs,
but we couldn’t talk too long because we had to get to the bus and take our showers and
get onto the next bus. I can tell you a story about the Cuban girls when we would come
to the showers they wouldn’t shower with the rest of us, so they wanted to shower last
and they did. So, we’re sitting on the bus starving, hungry and we wanted to get moving
and they come lumbering along like this after making us wait forty-five more minutes.
Oh, you would say things to them, but you couldn’t say too much, but that was kind of
funny. Different cultures and different ways of getting things done. 54:09
Interviewer: “Did you always play each other or did you sometimes play local
teams?”
We always played each other when we were on tour because you took the girls that they
were going to use later on to see who worked out after these games and take up to the
other teams, so it was always each other and we never played outside of that.
Interviewer: “Aside from the Cubans, were there particular players in that group
who were particularly distinctive or were troublemakers or leaders or anything like
that?”

8

�Well, not any of that really, but different ones had different personalities. I don’t know if
you’re familiar with Maybelle Blair, there were girls like that, younger, that were very
funny and talked loud and did funny things. 54:57
Interviewer: “Now, was Toni Palermo in that group?”
Yes, she was in that group also, right.
Interviewer: “She would have been one of the youngest ones.”
Yes, she was maybe sixteen when I was seventeen or something.
Interviewer: “What did they do to look after you? You’re taking a group of teen
age, largely teenage, girls, I guess some of them were a little older, how did they look
after them?”
Well, the chaperones were always there. Wherever we stayed they were ever present in
the hotel and they just in general watched out for us because if some of these boys want
to take you out on a date or something, you would have to go through the chaperone.
That lightened up though because when I was in Grand Rapids one of the reporters from
the Grand Rapids Herald and I went out to dinner one night. His name was Scotty
something and I don’t remember the last name, but he was telling me about the morgue.
You know what the morgue is don’t you? Newspapers that they keep, so if somebody
dies they go into that file and pick it out, and that was something I never knew before and
something I learned from Scott. 56:00
Interviewer: “Now, does the traveling team season end before the regular one does?
Was it a shorter season or did you finish at the same time maybe, what do you
think?”
We finished in late August and what did our girls have, a 160 game schedule?

9

�Interviewer: “Something like that.”
It was something like that, but I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “The playoffs for the league were a little bit later than that. Would
any of the girls from the traveling teams be called up to the regular clubs or would
you just stay together the whole year?”
We stayed together the whole year and then they sent you to the club. No, they waited
until the season was over. They didn’t pull anybody out that I recall. We picked some up
on the road though; we picked up Sue Kidd in Choctaw, Arkansas.
Interviewer: “Was that a common thing? Would they try people out as they went
from town to town?” 56:57
I only remember that year picking her up as one particular person, but maybe they did,
maybe any of the girls that played in the fifties, maybe they picked up more than one.
Has anyone told you a story so far that they picked up someone?
Interviewer: “ I think there were some maybe they identified and may have joined
a little later. I think Sue Kidd did kind of get on the bus and go with them.”
She got on the bus and went with them, that’s absolutely right.
Interviewer: “Alright, they did that and once that season comes to an end—had you
finished high school yet or were you still in school?”
No, I hadn’t finished yet, but then you’d go back to school and once you were eighteen
and out, you went back two months to the job, if you had a job. Do you know what the
salaries for factory jobs were at the time?
Interviewer: “Nope”

10

�Forty a week—we got more playing ball, and some ladies will say they made more
money than their fathers. It’s kind of amazing isn’t it when you think of it? 57:56
Interviewer: “Although if you think of modern pro athletes in a lot of sports and so
forth, that seems less surprising, but then, baseball players were not paid as well as
football or anyone else.”
Well, back in the seventies, I knew a Jimmy French who was with the Washington
Senators when Ted Williams was the manager and these guys would get about fifteen a
day for meals when they were out and they all lived on hamburgers so they could save
money and it’s kind of interesting, I was down in Florida one time on vacation, and in a
bar. I came with two friends, and we wanted to go to the games, the spring training
games, and we found out where the fellas hung out, so we went in the bar and I was kind
of looking for Jimmy French because I had met him on the farm in Pennsylvania--Eastern
Ohio, right next to Pennsylvania and I said, “Anybody here know Jimmy French?” And
one of the guys said, “Hell, who doesn’t know Jimmy French? He’s the only one with a
masters degree in finance”. 59:00 He ended up working on the San Francisco stock
market. That was kind of rare I guess for athletes to be going to get a degree and then
playing ball, and they only had to play ten years to be pensioned, so every year—I don’t
know if he still gets ten thousand a year or what, but that was back from the early
seventies.
Interviewer: “Now we’re going to go back to your story. Did they want you to come
back the next year?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “But you decided not to.”

11

�I just decided I could make more money because I wanted to go to college and my family
didn’t have any money to send me, so—and I think because I’d had a paper route and I
was used to picking up spare money, I kind of knew how to do that, so when it was
available to me, it would be foolish not to take it, that’s the way I looked at it.
Interviewer: “So, you got the double salary while playing in Chicago and working,
right?”
Three years, right
Interviewer: “You did that in 1950 and then in 1951 you go back to the all
American?” 60:00
Yeah, I go back for a year because this team was moving on and another team didn’t
want to pick me up until the year after, so that’s what I did. It was because I was rookie
on this team and this team was the Chicago Queens, they won the championship that
year. I don’t know if you’ve heard of them. Have you heard of the Weaver sisters?
Interviewer: “Yeah”
They were on that team and I was the youngest one on the team and one was pitching and
one was playing shortstop. They could hit—they came out of New Orleans Jacks teams,
so I had people like that around me with high skill levels, and some of the best pitchers in
that league. Connie Wisnwiewski came to that league, and I know her because she came
to the Grand Rapids Chicks, and she got a higher salary than the rest. It was like three
hundred a week, which was very high and she made her own rules, she had a limousine
drive her around, but then she bounced back after that, so I wasn’t the only one that did
that. 1:01
Interviewer: “Normally what position would you play when you were playing?”

12

�Center field when I played for the Bluebirds, center field for the Grand Rapids Chicks,
and second base when I played for the Sallies.
Interviewer: “Was that just depending who else was on the team, where to put
you?”
Well, the coaches put you, they place you and you could be an infielder or an outfielder.
Interviewer: “Now did you play any positions beside those two?”
No, pretty much those two, and I liked center because I was pretty fast and I could cover
the other people over on those ends, so it worked well for me.
Interviewer: “Did you have a good throwing arm?”
I threw people out at the plate from center field.
Interviewer: “Could you hit?”
Fairly well, not real good, but I was a pretty good base stealer when I got on. I hear Toni
saying she was on base a lot and that’s kind of amazing to me, but you know and he said,
“don’t let the truth get in the way of anything.” 2:00
Interviewer: “She was on base all the time, she said.”
According to her, yeah and you got to love her. “What was your average? Were you
batting three hundred? Because we know that girls that batted three hundred and you
weren’t one of them.” You know who they were don’t you? Doris Sams, the ones they
named, people have already named the better players right? So Doris Sam’s, Connie
Wisnwiewski, and I can’t even think of the others right now, but-Interviewer: “She may have walked a lot.”
That could have been, that might have been.

13

�Interviewer: “Alright, so as someone who ran bases a lot, did you have problems
with strawberries and all of that?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Did you find ways of dealing with that? Could you slide in a certain
way that was less harmful?”
No, when you hit the ground you’re going to land on the same spot the next time and you
remember that because it’s not comfortable.
Interviewer: “What kind of treatment could they provide for you?”
The chaperone came out right away and rolled you over and first cleaned it off and then
the Mercurichrome and of course, we never complained about anything because they
would take you out of the line-up and I did not want to be taken out of the line-up. 3:08
The ball player today, when they get a hangnail they don’t play and they get all that
money.
Interviewer: “Well, they want to protect their investment, right?”
It cracks me up
Interviewer: “So, basically you’re situation in Chicago changes, but you still want
to keep playing, so did you have to go tryout for the all Americans in 1951?”
No, when I said I wanted to come back they said, “oh good”, and they put me on a team.
Interviewer: “Alright, what do you remember about the season in Grand Rapids?”
I remember getting on base in Grand Rapids and sort of outwitting the Cuban pitchers for
stealing. I knew their little slow moves and whatever and throwing people out, and then
the people I met, so that was the best for me.

14

�Interviewer: “Were their some pitchers that were harder to run on than others?”
3:59
Yes, tough to run on
Interviewer: “Who was tough?”
Well, Jean Faut, of course, and I can’t think of any right now, I’m just not pulling them
up.
Interviewer: “And their pitchers that you really didn’t like to have to bat against?”
Well, you couldn’t control it, you did your best you know, you never gave up, never give
up.
Interviewer: “Where did you live when you were in Grand Rapids?”
In a home with somebody, and I don’t even remember the people's name right now, but I
lived in a sort of a boarding house situation once too.
Interviewer: “Do you remember which field you were playing at? South Field by
the high school or Bigelow Field south of town?”
I think it was Bigelow Field.
Interviewer: “They played there for a couple of years and then it burned down.
Were the crowds good in Grand Rapids at that point?” 4:55
Yes they were, that was five years in and they were still good. It was the last two or three
years that they weren’t so good and I don’t if it was a novelty and it was wearing off with
people, but it was kind of sad to see it go. Some of the girls, what you call the all stars
went on to play in other places around the country with Bill Allington and things like
that, so that was good.
Interviewer: “They did a little more barnstorming for a while anyway.”

15

�Yeah, a little more barnstorming, but that’s all that was left. I remember that wrestling
came into popularity then and girls roller skating came into popularity, so I don’t want to
call the American public fickle, but they tire of things after while and the guys were back,
so that was a big thing.
Interviewer: “That’s right because when the league started the minor leagues were
pretty well shut down, so in these smaller towns and so forth, they didn’t have
anything going on. 5:50
Sometimes—let’s see, it was when you’d go down to Florida and Max Carey was down
there and he’s invite some of us girls to the track to bet on the dogs, he always wanted
fifty cents, he was going to go in on it with two or three of us, kind of interesting huh?
Interviewer: “So you play basically with Grand Rapids for one year and then what
do you do after that?”
After that I go to college.
Interviewer: “Where did you go to college?”
I went to Northeastern Illinois State in Chicago, a city college.
Interviewer: “And what did you study?”
Education and Psychology
Interviewer: “Then what did you do with the degree once you had it?”
I was an elementary teacher for six years and then after that I was a counselor for twentyeight years.
Interviewer: “Where did you work?”
First in Chicago and then after a year the Department of Defense started in New York and
came across the country all the way to California, and they were interviewing for jobs in

16

�Europe at the army schools, so they picked me in Chicago and I went over to Europe for
two years and taught in Germany. 7:00 When I came back form there—you could look
for placements over there is you were deciding to come home and I found one in Parma,
Ohio, so I was there for two years and then I decided I wanted to work on my masters and
then I came back to Chicago. So, my career is in education.
Interviewer: “Aside from getting you some funding to start college with, what kind
of effects, do you think, playing organized ball for the all Americans and the softball
league, what sort of effects did that have on you?”
Well, the camaraderie is just so much you know, I think you’re so lucky to get that in
your life, but also, you’re around all these other women of talent, you supported each
other, you had role models because the girls that came before us were certain role models
you know. That Wagner lady, Audrey Wagner, ended up being a doctor and things like
that. The role models—“there isn’t anything you can’t do, at least give it a try”. 8:07 I
don’t think a lot of kids grow up with that, you have these other things that lead you to it,
these other opportunities and that’s what I think is the important thing, the opportunity
and then to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with the right set of
skills.
Interviewer: “When you were actually playing with the league, did you see yourself
at all as any kind of pioneer and really doing something significant in moving
women’s sports?”
No, just doing what I loved to do, being physical in space and doing it well and all the
other benefits that I’ve suggested.

17

�Interviewer: “Then in the seventies and in the eighties as women’s sports really
start to pick up and title nine comes in and so forth, did you pay much attention to
that?” 8:52
Yeah, I remember people in—all the PE teachers in the school were into this Title IX
thing and all of us ladies were and I was a counselor in school, so we were always
politicking for that to come into being, because it made a difference. Look at our athletes
today—all as a result of Title IX. I know all the little particulars and the politics of it—
not that many girls care and not that many girls want to come out and they’re taking
space from the boys, but I think that gave America a boost now too. Our female athletes
and all the things they’ve won, we beat China in the Olympics, things like that. Look at
the women athletes in anything today, how good they are, and they have the same
training, they do the workouts. What we did was calisthenics and running, we didn’t do
weight work and you know how strong that enables you to be, so that’s why the women
are so good today. The women’s teams are as good as us or better, but the interest is not
there because you see, it’s society, it’s always the men with the bib basketball and the big
baseball and it’s understandable, that’s where the money goes, that’s where everything is.
10:03 I always thought sports in America was a great outlet for men in a progressive
nature. Let’s use their testosterone and I always thought, this is good because people
aren’t fighting in society themselves or fighting on the streets, they’re getting rid of it in
some other way and they’re getting rich too
Interviewer: “That’s true and we’re not like the European soccer fans where all the
violence is in the stands.”
We have our heroes, we sure do.

18

�Interviewer: “Were you involved in any of the stuff leading into the creation of “A
League of Their Own” and all that?”
Yes, right from the beginning. People that remember people, remember where they live,
“oh, she’s here”, and I got a call from Shirley Jamison, one of the first, and she was a tiny
little lady the first three, four or five years and in fact that was the first pictorial section
that came out in the newspaper, she was in that picture and of course years later, Isabel
came out in one while she was a pitcher. 10:58 Shirley called me up and said, “I know
where she’s living”, and then they told me . I went to Cooperstown in 1988 and it all
kicked off from there.
Interviewer: “The people you worked with and your friends, did they know you
played ball?”
I never told them, never talked about it.
Interviewer: “Even while you’re kind of lobbying for women in sports?”
Yeah, isn’t that interesting, it was just that part of my life is the way I looked at it you
know. Parts of it were wonderful for me and gave me an impetus to do things. I can tell
you a story—kind of an impetus to do things—I saw a movie when I was younger Roz
Russell played Amelia Earhart in the movie and what was I, in my teens when I saw that
or ten years old? Anyway, when I was forty years old, some kids in school came and
asked me if I would sponsor a flying club, just asked me. I said, “Oh sure”, so that
summer I said, “Oh my god, I better get a pilot's license, so that’s when I went to get a
pilots license because I wanted their respect, I wanted to know more than them, so they
would—just didn’t have someone who was just kind of a face to their thing, I wanted to
know the stuff. 12:06 Then I flew for five years on a regular basis and the guys that

19

�trained me said, “Ilene, you keep coming out, why?” I said, “I love being in the air, it’s
marvelous”, because he said that most women get their ticket and you never see them
again, they just want to say they have a pilots license. I didn’t know that until the
instructor told me that’s what most of the guys do it, but I guess we ladies are a little
more serious about it, we’re just glad to be there in the first place. 12:34
Interviewer: “And do you think that having gone and just done the stuff you had
done by taking on new challenges, it was no big deal to go fly?”
Yes, exactly, plus I had that interest since I was maybe fifteen or sixteen. If Amelia
Earhart can do it, I can do it. That’s so funny isn’t it? People need role models, boys and
girls both need role models and I had my role models in the girls that played ball and that
movie. In fact, that was the first role model to me, before I went with the girls to play
ball, you know, for something to do or that looks interesting, that I want to try.
Interviewer: “Well it makes for a good story and I’ll point out to you, you took
longer than fifteen minutes to tell it.”
I did? How long did I talk?
Interviewer: “I don’t know.”
A half hour, my times up—I’m usually worth a half hour. 13.23
Interviewer: “You’ve done really well, so thank you for coming and talking to us.”
Thank you.

20

�21

�22

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                  <text>All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. History Department</text>
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                  <text>The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.</text>
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                  <text>Sports for women</text>
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                  <text>Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner &amp; Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. </text>
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                    <text>Special Services
At
Salem Indian United Methodist Church

Novem.ber 28, 29, 30 and Decem.ber 1
Thanksgiving Thursday thru Sunday

Services at 7:00 p.nt.
Special Speakers:
Thursday -

i

-

:;:;

-

Saturday -

Rev. Eric McDonald
Assistant Pastor at Pawating
Magedwin U.M.C.

Sunday

-

Ul

II

::,

Burnips
142 Ave.

Emmanual Onu
Student at Purdue University,
Former student at Moody Bible
Institute.

I

Ra?iCs

Casey Church
Native American Candidate for
the Ministry

F riday

Gra:--.c:

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rl

.

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Dorr

miles

8

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E

N

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,,:

1 mile

E

138 Ave.
-f&gt;

Salem
Indian
U. M. C.

I

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Casey Church

Indian Corn Soup and Fried Bread Supper - Fundraiser
Saturday From 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.
Proceeds Will Help Finance AN ew Pasonage Project

Everyone Welcomed

�</text>
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