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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Leonard Feerick Jr.
(00:53:00)
Introduction (00:10)
Family and Friend (00:15)
•
•

Born in Sparta, MI on February 8, 1925 in his home, delivered by a midwife.
Feerick Jr. mentioned that he attended K-12 in a very small room which has
long since been demolished. (04:12)

Pre-enlistment (05:34)
•

Feerick describes the shock and dismay that people had when Pearl Harbor
was attacked. What followed were feelings of hatred towards Japanese
Americans. He mentions the resentment Americans had towards them. (06:04)

Enlistment and Basic training (07:34)
•

Feerick Jr. mentions that he didn’t want to join the navy. While he was in line
at the recruitment station in Detroit the navy representative took everyone
who was in line up to a certain point and those people joined the navy. (07:34)

•

Afterwards, he went to the reception center in Fort Custer, MI to take tests to
help the armored forces determine where to best place him. They saw that he
had mechanic skills and so they placed him in the army air corps. (08:37)

•

Went to Miami Beach, FL for basic training. Unlike many trainees who had to
train in the dust, he trained on the beach. (09:35) Stayed in Palmer House and
describes his living arrangements. Had previously picked up his uniform at
Fort Custer.

•

Typical days usually consisted of waking up; reporting for roll call, cleaning
their hotel rooms, and drilling. Briefly mentions that while marching they
were expected to sing. (15:36) Conducted close-ordered drills at a golf course.
His training was nothing as difficult as what the typical marine or infantryman
went through.

•

Spent 6 weeks there. (17:32) Afterwards, went to Gulfport, Mississippi where
he went to mechanical training school. Feerick Jr. learned about hydraulics,
physics, etc. (19:37) Frequently listened to the radio of news of the war
abroad.

�•

At one point, he and a few other soldiers were taken out of mechanical school
before graduating and sent on ships to England. While waiting for a ship to
take them to England they did nothing. (22:47)

•

From there, he went to Camp Kilmer, NJ but on the way spent a few days in
Greensboro, NC where a few of the men came down with measles and were
quarantined for a few weeks. (24:16)

The Crossing (24:31)
•

From Camp Kilmer, NJ they boarded a French cruise ship, recently converted
into a passenger ship, and were crowded in it by the thousands. (24:31)

•

Briefly describes the regular emergency drills that they had while aboard ship
during the crossing and that many came down with sea sickness.

England (27:14)
•

Landed in Liverpool, England and was there a few days. He than went to an
airfield where a combination of British-American fighter pilots were
stationed. While there, Feerick Jr. briefly mentions the small barracks he
shared with a small group of Canadians and colonials. (27:14)

•

From there, he went to Sudbury, England where he was supposed to be trained
in how to handle bombers but wasn’t. (28:35) Instead, he had various
responsibilities in the officer’s mess hall and cafeteria. (30:40)

•

Feerick Jr. briefly mentions various exercises done by Mustang fighters over
the base as they would fight mock battles. (33:14) Mentions that one pilot
always buzzed by the house of the superior officer who transferred him off the
base.

•

Describes the atmosphere of living on the base. (35:23) He mentions that
often when he went to bed his bunkmates played cards. (37:33)

•

At around the time of the Battle of the Bulge, he was transferred to Tinsworth,
England where he underwent infantry training. Tells of a particular sergeant
who had psychological problems because of his time in a bunker when a shell
exploded near his position. (39:22)

•

It was soldiers like this that trained Feerick Jr. and others how to shoot a gun,
crawl through trenches, and drill. He mentions that he crawled under chicken
wire. Shares his personal thoughts. (41:14)

•

On one occasion, an instructor pulled a rip cord on a hand grenade and threw
it. Feerick Jr. mentions diving for cover as the grenade exploded scattering

�guns and men alike. (42:32) The point of the exercise was to see how the
trainees reacted.
France and Germany (46:05)
•

After training in England, the war in Europe came to an end. Feerick Jr.
mentions that he was then sent to France where he went to clerk-typist school
in preparation for working for the military government in Berlin, Germany.

•

Worked in Berlin, Germany on the Russians-side of the Berlin Wall. Briefly
describes traveling the Autobahn and shares his thoughts on that.

•

Briefly describes a few encounters with German people and their feelings of
Allied occupation. (46:05) He further describes the hostility that the Russians
had towards Americans on their side of the wall. In one encounter, he was
touring East Berlin on a tour bus and wanted to get off to see the sights but
wasn’t allowed to. Describes what the average Russian was like.

Going Home (48:56)
•

Feerick Jr. was discharged at Camp Atterbury in December 1945. Describes
how civilians were more than willing to entertain troops and the heartfelt
welcome of a grateful nation at their return.

After the War (50:11)
•

Took a train from Camp Atterbury to Grand Rapids, MI. From there got a ride
from a gentleman to Sparta. Shared his thoughts about how united the country
was behind the troops. (51:08) Briefly mentions his thoughts on New York
people. (53:51)

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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Felícitas Nuñez
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 8/25/2012

Biography and Description
Felícitas Nuñez lives in Bermuda Dunes, California. She and Delia Ravelo are co-founders of Teatro de Las
Chicanas. The concept began when women of Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán (MEChA)
brought their mothers to a university setting. There they organized a “Seminario de Chicanas” so that
the mothers could understand what their daughters were going through. They wrote and performed
“Chicana Goes to College.” And as a result of the audience’s positive response, Ms. Nuñez and Ms.
Ravelo formed the Teatro de Las Chicanas. In the beginning years the core group consisted of just Ms.
Ravelo and Ms. Nuñez, but many young women participated in the Teatro. Though working in San Diego,
they were influenced by the leftist political ideals of the San Francisco Mime Troupe. They also united
with the objectives of the Chicano Movement which included, among other things, social justice,
bilingual education, and unionization. It also went further to address women’s equality. Several of the
plays written and performed by the Teatro as well as the memories of their core members have been
published in Teatro Chicana: A Collective Memoir and Selected Plays (2008). Most of the women who
joined the Teatro came from farming towns throughout California and most of them were the first of
their families to attend college. Around the early part of June 1969, Ms. Nuñez traveled to Chicago and
met with the Young Lords who were transforming themselves from a local Puerto Rican gang into a
human rights movement. One month earlier, the Young Lords had occupied the administration building

�of McCormick Theological Seminary (today on the campus of DePaul University) with 350 neighborhood
residents and held it for an entire week. The Young Lords won all their demands, including $50,000 seed
money for two free health clinics, $25,000 to open up the People’s Law Office which still operates today,
and $650,000 to be invested by the seminary in low-income housing. One week earlier, the Young Lords
had occupied a huge United Methodist Church on Dayton and Armitage, which they were in the process
of transforming to become the Young Lords National Headquarters. The church would also house their
Free Community Day Care Center, Free Dental and Health Clinic, and Free Breakfast for Children
Program. All these programs were modeled after the Black Panther Party programs, of which the Young
Lords had recently also connected via Fred Hampton’s Rainbow Coalition that Field Marshall Bobby Lee
had also helped to broker. After the take-over of the church, the Young Lords quickly made amends.
They did not want to disrupt any church service. When asked by the press if the Young Lords were going
to allow the church to hold service, Mr. Jiménez quickly responded, “that it was not really a take over as
the doors were now open to everyone, and that he and other Young Lords were planning on attending
the services, being led by Rev. Bruce Johnson.” Some members of the congregation left but the Young
Lords started meetings with the rest of the congregation, and together they designed the People’s
Church symbol and produced a button that showed chains being broken. The Young Lords were cleaning
up the church and adding needed paint when Ms. Nuñez arrived and volunteered to organize a group of
muralists. Inside the church, Ron Clark and others were painting a mural of Puerto Rican history in the
gymnasium. Outside, Ms. Nuñez’s group painted the Young Lords symbol of ”Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi
Corazón” or “I have Puerto Rico in my Heart.” This lettering was in purple, with a green map of Puerto
Rico, and a brown fist holding a rifle. (It had been designed by Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera and Mr. Jiménez.
The first buttons were printed at the Green Duc Button Company at Lake Street and Halsted). Other
murals that Ms. Nuñez and her volunteers painted on the church walls were images of Adelita, Emiliano
Zapata, Lolita Lebrón, and Don Pedro Albizu Campos. Someone else, probably Ron Clark, painted Che
Guevara by the side entrance to the office, with the lettering “Young Lords National Headquarters.”
These wonderful murals could not be overlooked in Lincoln Park. Not only were they featured in the
news, but Lincoln Park residents would drive by and stop in to see the various programs and activities,
making People’s Church the center of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. By then most Puerto Ricans had
been forced out of Lincoln Park and there was also plenty of room for others to join the Young Lords
Movement. Hispanos representing all Latino nations joined the Young Lords, including members of other
minorities, middle class individuals, workers, the very poor, and students. The Lincoln Park Poor People’s
Coalition was formed and Mr. Jiménez was voted president. The Northside Cooperative Ministry, of
which Rev. Bruce Johnson was a prominent member, was also established during this period, and it
supported the Poor People’s Coalition and the Young Lords. Just sixty days before Mark Clark and Fred
Hampton were shot to death, assassinated in a predawn raid led by State’s attorney Edward Hanrahan,
Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia were also discovered in their beds stabbed multiple times, in a
cold case that remains unsolved. The Eulogy was given at the church with Young Lords fully
participating, providing security and traffic control. There was also a spontaneous march through the
Lincoln Park Community where Rev. Bruce Johnson worked with the poor. Ms. Nuñez left Chicago
unaware of the impact she had made in the Puerto Rican community and in Lincoln Park. The Teatro
Chicana did participate in the impromptu Lincoln Park Camp in Michigan in the 2000 and the Young
Lords 40th Anniversary celebration in Chicago in 2008.

�Transcript

JOSE JIMENEZ:

Okay, go ahead. If you can give me your name and your --

FELICITAS NUÑEZ:

Age.

JJ:

Age and where you were born.

FN:

I was born in Brawley, California; that’s very close to the Mexicali border. And I
am almost 63 years of age, and my name is Felícitas Nuñez.

JJ:

Okay, Brawley, California. Where’s that at?

FN:

It’s in Imperial Valley where you have --

JJ:

The mid part of --

FN:

It’s on the lower part of California close to the border --

JJ:

Close to the border? Okay.

FN:

-- of Mexicali.

JJ:

Okay, so somewhere --

FN:

Very, very hot weather. And when I was first born in the late ’40s, it was a very
rich cultural area in agriculture.

JJ:

In agriculture? Okay, what type of --

FN:

They had tomato, (Spanish) [00:01:00] -- I mean, just a big vegetable garden that
could feed all of California and more than that.

JJ:

Okay, so this is a rural area. So you had a farm? Did you own a farm or
[anything like the?] --

FN:

Oh, no, we worked in the farms of others who owned them. And initially when
that originated, they said that the way they started claiming the land was if you

1

�could walk that land -- whatever land you walked, you could claim as your own,
and that meant everybody. But I understand that historically, what happened is
those that had horses-- specifically, you know, they were mainly Anglo people.
They got on a horse, and rode around on the horse and claimed the land. And if
they saw anybody on foot, which was mainly whoever couldn’t afford a horse,
those were shot.
JJ:

They were shot?

FN:

Uh-huh.

JJ:

To death?

FN:

Yes.

JJ:

[00:02:00] Even if they lived there, they were shot there?

FN:

Well, everybody was claiming land at that time, so I don’t know if everybody there
was recently immigrated into that land or really established. But it was a pretty
new territory because irrigation had been in full bloom, you know, and those
areas that are very dry don’t have a lot of cultivation. So when the canal system
came into existence, it had a lot of potential in them. And just like I said, it was a
vegetable garden for the whole state of California and more.

JJ:

So you said there was a canal system set up, or...?

FN:

Mm-hmm.

JJ:

How did that function? I mean, where did they --

FN:

They got the water from Río Colorado.

JJ:

Río Colorado? Okay.

2

�FN:

And that’s how they started that whole irrigation process. And I understand that
that’s the way that the Salton Sea was formed because some dam broke or
something, and it filled this whole space. And they call it a man-made sea,
Salton Sea, [00:03:00] and there was a salt mine there at one time. And it went
all the way to the bottom, so the water filled everything up and became very
salty. And fish were able to thrive there at one time, but now with the pollution of
pesticides, insecticides, herbicides, everything’s been dying. And, you know,
now they’re not even having the Colorado River run through there like it used to
because water rights are being claimed privately, and so all the water that’s been
drying -- the wind picks up all of this, and everybody’s breathing this massive
pollution contamination of the water and earth.

JJ:

And what was your mother’s and father’s names?

FN:

(Spanish) [00:03:54] Felícitas [Melina?] --

JJ:

Melina?

FN:

[00:03:57] -- (Spanish) [Felino?] Nuñez. (Spanish). [00:04:00]

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:04:13]

FN:

(Spanish). [00:04:14]

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:04:28]

FN:

(Spanish). [00:04:29]

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:04:32]

FN:

Uh-huh.

JJ:

So (Spanish)? [00:04:34] What was their names?

3

�FN:

(Spanish) [00:04:39] Felino, Julia, Rosa, Josephina. (Spanish) [00:04:48]
[Genaro?], Fidel, Raphael, (Spanish), [00:04:52] [Teresa?].

JJ:

And what did they do? Where are they at now?

FN:

[00:04:58] (Spanish). [00:05:00]

JJ:

(Spanish). [00:05:30]

FN:

[00:05:31] (Spanish). [00:06:00]

JJ:

(Spanish) [00:06:06] -- what is that, Bracero?

FN:

Bracero? [00:06:10] (Spanish). [00:07:00]

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:07:25]

FN:

(Spanish) [00:07:31] --

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:07:32]

FN:

(Spanish) [00:07:33] --

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:07:35]

FN:

(Spanish)? [00:07:40]

JJ:

(Spanish). [00:07:42]

FN:

(Spanish). [00:07:43]

JJ:

What is that?

FN:

(Spanish) [00:07:56] nurse’s aide. [00:08:00]

JJ:

Nurse’s aide? Okay.

FN:

(Spanish). [00:08:02]

JJ:

So I thought in the late ’40s, they were bringing Puerto Rican workers to some of
the vagrant camps during that time, so maybe that’s when it happened or later.

FN:

Yeah, that --

4

�JJ:

Or it stopped --

FN:

There’s, I guess --

JJ:

-- (laughs) [with the ’60s?].

FN:

-- an overall strategy on how things come about. I mean, it doesn’t happen
accidentally. The fact that work from the outside is brought in, work that is not
consciously organized to fight for their rights, because they’re desperate or they
know whoever’s employing them are going to make the contract that -- these
people are desperate, so they use that weakness to break whatever strength we
had built up here in the United States already. Because the United States has an
incredible history of people that fought for rights, and you know, we’re always
[00:09:00] putting down the concept of communism. You know, they say, “Oh,
you know, you’re a communist,” and you think, “Well, what is a communist?” And
it’s a person that thinks of the commonwealth, that thinks about community, and
talk about the model of -- what, you know, people admire a lot of Christ was that
he was a very just person. In legend or history, whichever, he’s an icon of a
image that shared broke bread, you know? And to be called a communist, I
think, “Well, my goodness, what’s so ugly about that?” But, you know, it came up
with McCarthy. You know, anybody that’s labelled that is really- tried to be put
down.

JJ:

So now, were your parents Catholic, [00:10:00] or what’s --

FN:

My mother especially was very religious, and --

JJ:

But of what church?

FN:

(Spanish). [00:10:07]

5

�JJ:

(Spanish), [00:10:08] okay.

FN:

But that was her sanctuary because she was a person that was very naive to
begin with. She got into a relationship that was not good. My father was not a
very good role model of a human person. In some respects, he was, but when it
came to -- he was in the same general --

JJ:

What do you mean by that?

FN:

-- arena where men think they’re superior to women. And then it happens, you
know, that women start -- you know, sometimes women are more male supremist
than men because they really take that to heart and really think that women
should not come out of their roles. So my mother was very Catholic, [00:11:00]
but at the same time, the church offered her sanctuary because of the abuse.
You know, she had nowhere to turn, and church was a very acceptable place of
sanctuary because it was respected by (Spanish). [00:11:16] You know, my
father said, “Well, she didn’t go to a cantina to get sanctuary. She went to church
to get sanctuary.” And she found a lot of --

JJ:

So meaning sanctuary [around?] there --

FN:

Where you go to a place, a sacred space, and pour out all of your woes and
problems, and get that inspirational strength. And it can be anywhere, but --

JJ:

So she didn’t go there to run away or anything. She just went there to pour out
her [things?] --

FN:

To enforce her spirituality. And, you know, I really -- you know, people say,
“Well, are you religious?” And I don’t know. Sometimes to respond -- [00:12:00]
I respect people have their religion, but I think in general, what we’re talking

6

�about is her spirituality regardless of what religion it is. The thing is religion
becomes an ingroup. If you’re a Catholic or a Protestant, “No, you don’t leave,”
but, you know, it sort of divides you. But in common, what we have is that quest,
that need for spirituality enforcement. And that commonality to -- you know, that
we are one, so religion in the institutionalized sense has done more damage.
More wars have been caused in the name of God than, you know, what the
image of what Christ was; you know, to love your neighbor, to share bread, to
treat everyone as equals. And of course, you know, [00:13:00] that’s all we know
because the Bible was written by man, and testament means “witness of
testicles”, you know?
JJ:

Is that what it means, or...?

FN:

Yes. We don’t have a vagina-ment, you know, so in the Bible --

JJ:

Okay, so that’s not -- you’re being a little facetious about that.

FN:

Well, no, I’m saying that we can accept testament, but we can’t accept a thing
like vagina-ment. I mean, to say that vagina is one of the most terrible things that
you can say is just offensive as communist. Vagina, communist, menstruation -it’s like, “Oh, my God,” you know? So all of that, you know, goes into my thinking
of, “Yes, I do respect religion, but not when it controls you totally to where it puts
you against another people just because they have another religion,” [00:14:00]
because spirituality should not be property. To me, it’s, you know, connecting to
the universe, connecting to the world, connecting to your neighbors, connecting
to yourself as one. And that collective consciousness really needs to come out
because what happens is the way we are taken over and controlled is by divisive

7

�means. Men against women, black against white, white against red, red against
yellow -- you know, it just goes on forever.
JJ:

Okay, so you’re --

FN:

And it just --

JJ:

-- growing up in which valley?

FN:

Right now, I’m living in the --

JJ:

No, but at that time, where --

FN:

I grew up in Imperial Valley.

JJ:

Imperial Valley, yeah, okay.

FN:

And Imperial Valley is mainly [00:15:00] a rural area that was run by (Spanish)
[00:15:05] that were Anglo.

JJ:

Oh, the (Spanish) [00:15:07] were Anglo?

FN:

Yes, uh-huh. And there, they --

JJ:

But I mean, big --

FN:

Yeah, big acres of --

JJ:

-- acres of land?

FN:

-- agriculture.

JJ:

Or agriculture?

FN:

And all the workers were --

JJ:

Where did the workers live?

FN:

The workers? We were lucky to be one of the fir-- well, I don’t know about the
first, but my father had a steady job as a foreman, so that gave us more --

JJ:

A foreman there at the --

8

�FN:

A foreman of the Braceros that worked in the fields that were contracted.

JJ:

Okay, so --

FN:

So he was able to gain citizenship. My mother did --

JJ:

But did he build his way up, or --

FN:

No, he --

JJ:

-- he just came in as the foreman?

FN:

Yeah, he migrated from Mexico, lived in San Bernardino for a while, worked in
the trains --

JJ:

So he had gone to school [or something to be?] -- except they hired him as a
foreman. [00:16:00]

FN:

He was very smart with figures, and he knew English.

JJ:

He knew English.

FN:

He had already worked in the train station in San Bernardino that -- a lot of
Mexicanos worked with the trains at that time, and then it started going down
because the trucking industry started taking over. But the reason he left the train
was because he ran off with my mother. He was about 21, and she was about
15, so they ran away. And then my grandmother put him in jail, so he had to
marry my mother, but they ended up in Imperial Valley. And he was hired as a
foreman for the Braceros.

JJ:

Okay, so since he was a foreman, we were talking about where you lived.

FN:

Yeah, we were able to -- my mother was basically the one that got us a house,
you know, because they were living in carpets just like everybody else, (Spanish)
-- [00:16:55]

9

�JJ:

What do you mean?

FN:

-- (Spanish). [00:16:56]

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:16:57]

FN:

Just a, you know, makeshift [00:17:00] tent, whatever you could find; sometimes
branches or whatever, you know, you could put together to have shelter.

JJ:

Like a one-room whatever you could build.

FN:

(Spanish); [00:17:12] you know, dirt floors, and you know, she did the best she
could. But then when my older brothers and sisters started working in the fields,
she started thinking that they could have a house. And so they all put their
money together, and they were able to get a house.

JJ:

So they were able to get a house, but still, they worked in the fields and --

FN:

Oh, yeah, and then my mother eventually got a job in the hospital as a nurse aid.
And that was against my father’s wish because he wanted the control, you know.
So that was good, and also, she had a sister, my aunt [Aggie?], who started
working at this store called Kress. And to us, that was a big honor, [00:18:00]
you know, because she worked in a store, my God. You know, that was --

JJ:

In the town? That was a town where --

FN:

Uh-huh, in San Bernardino. She stayed in San Bernardino, my aunt Aggie, so
that also gave us a --

JJ:

So she was a big person, yeah.

FN:

Yeah, she was a big shot, you know, to us. My brother was a big shot because
he drove a machine. I mean, Mexicanos didn’t drive machines or work at stores,

10

�you know, where they sold stuff, so that was I guess you could call a progressive
side of the family in those days. But -JJ:

Okay. So was there that kind of -- some people were looked on better than
others, or...?

FN:

Yes.

JJ:

Okay. Was there --

FN:

Anybody that newly migrated from Mexico were labeled as (Spanish), [00:18:50]
wetback --

JJ:

(Spanish)? [00:18:56]

FN:

Uh-huh, (Spanish). [00:18:57]

JJ:

Why?

FN:

That was a [00:19:00] derogatory --

JJ:

A derogatory term?

FN:

A very derogatory --

JJ:

(Spanish), [00:19:02] you say?

FN:

(Spanish) [00:19:03] because they crossed the wire.

JJ:

The wire? Okay.

FN:

Mm-hmm, but then that’s how we --

JJ:

Then you said wetbacks too? Was that a thing?

FN:

Wetbacks, uh-huh. My --

JJ:

They were calling each other wetbacks, or...?

FN:

No, the people that were already established in the little town like, for example,
us. We were established more than the ones coming in, and that’s another thing

11

�that happens, you know. Every time somebody gets established, even though
you come from that same root, now you’re turning around and putting them
down. Before we came, you know, my mother crossed El Rio Grande. She was
almost drowning, and she was about seven years old. So how they came across
is illegally, but then, you know, a lot of people forget. You know, it’s like, “Oh, no,
I’m a citizen,” but how did everybody start? I mean, Jesus, they say, “Well,
[00:20:00] who’s an American?” We’re all American, and the Native American
Indians are more American than any American that ever has set foot here, so
there’s a thing, you know, within the Mexicanos where they say, “(Spanish).”
[00:20:14] What do you mean, Americano? “(Spanish).” [00:20:17] Well, geez,
you know, I’m an American, and I’m more American than the (Spanish)
[00:20:24] who crossed the sea. If I crossed a river, they crossed an ocean.
They crossed from the other side of the world. But even within us, you know, we
have been taught to respect more that comes from way, way far from the other
side of the world. And then, you know, here we are discriminating the people
that have roots, that have a history, that have an origin. So it’s a lot of internal
scars that we have, weaknesses that we have, that we [00:21:00] have to
supersede by educating ourselves because if you don’t have education, your
outlook is very, very limited. And you become very prejudiced, very greedy,
advantageous, and it just goes on and on. It’s a vicious cycle where you destroy
your own nest. You know, they say we are the only species that soil our nest,
and that’s because, you know, the ones that have the power to do so much are
polluting the world at a faster rate than has ever been known. We are destroying

12

�the waters, the air, the earth, so what does that mean? We’re destroying our
own nest because -- what can we do without Mother Earth? And again, you
know, that goes back to [00:22:00] religion. When did religion become male? So
that’s very imbalanced already, the philosophy of the world. “Oh, men run the
world.” Well, geez, you know, the world is female, so once men become superior
or even -- like I said, some women are more male supremist than men. If a
woman is inferior, she can be divided. She can be raped. She can be abused.
She can be polluted. So can the earth. The earth can be divided, sold here,
prostituted, polluted, but what’s even more sadder is the concept that you can do
both to the mothers and then Mother Earth. Well, then all the children that come
of women are vulnerable for exploitation. [00:23:00] I mean, even in the Bible,
what is one of the reasons to baptize? Because in the Catholic churches, for
example, and I don’t accept this, if you’re born from woman, from a vagina,
you’re dirty. So you have to be baptized and cleansed. Why do we accept that?
If you see a child, this infant -- you’re holding it, and you’re thinking like, “Where’s
the mortal sin?” But we accept it or we don’t understand it, and so we have
baptisms, and we go along with the show and have a big party and get drunk.
And it’s an excuse to party, but we’re not understanding exactly what we are
accepting. So I don’t know where we’re going with this, but anyway -JJ:

No, because you mentioned Mother Earth and trying to see [00:24:00] the
Indigenous people, so I was going to ask for your other worldviews also and
things like that. So where does this come from?

13

�FN:

The taking over of patriarchal religion destroyed the Indigenous Native religions
because they were based on respect for Mother Earth. If they did something,
they would say, “Well, if we organize this way or we manage this way --” because
the land was owned communally at one time. And so their thinking was, “If we
do this, how is it going to affect the next seven generations?” So you can’t think
like that in our modern world because you’re going to make profit to hell if you’re
going to kill your own kids in the next 10 generations. You don’t care. You’re
going to make money. You’re going to profit, so it’s hard [00:25:00] for us to
think, “Well, if I put these pesticides into this plant, it’s going to kill the bug right
now, and it’s going to grow a big crop. And I’m going to have all this.” And then
you say, “Well, what does it do to the human body? What does it do to the
animals around? What does it do to the birds?” And in that mentality, you’re
going to make a profit. You don’t care. You don’t care if it’s going to kill
thousands of birds, if it’s going to pollute the water, if it’s going to ruin people’s
kidneys, if it’s going to kill children, or it’s going to cause asthma for the next 10 -I mean, the mentality’s so --

JJ:

Okay, but where do you begin thinking like this, you personally?

FN:

I personally -- well, because like I said, spirituality is something that [00:26:00]
needs to flourish in all of us.

JJ:

But I mean, when did you start thinking about spirituality and Mother Earth? Was
that, I mean, from birth, or...?

FN:

Oh, no. At one time, I was very, very Catholic, although I questioned a lot of
things, because I was brought up -- like I said, my mother was the one that found

14

�sanctuary in Catholic, so I can respect that to some extent, she needed that. So
we were brought up very Catholic by my mother because my father was gone.
My father was out of the picture. I mean, he would come in and out and -JJ:

And what do you mean? He just left?

FN:

Well, no, he worked and then --

JJ:

But he wasn’t around?

FN:

He really wasn’t around.

JJ:

So where did he hang out at?

FN:

At the bars.

JJ:

At the bars? Okay. Did he have a drinking problem or just --

FN:

Yeah, but we called -- it was a man thing to do.

JJ:

A man thing to do, okay.

FN:

But it wasn’t called alcoholism. [00:27:00] And then --

JJ:

So he drank every day, or just on weekends or...?

FN:

I don’t know because I was too young. I was the second youngest, but --

JJ:

Okay, but he did go to the bars and to --

FN:

Oh, yeah, but my oldest brothers and sisters -- maybe they don’t want to
remember, but like I said, he lacked in being a responsible parent, what I think
should be a responsible -- or even just to yourself where you don’t abuse other
people. Anyway, so --

JJ:

So you don’t --

FN:

-- I was brought up in the Catholic religion, and I had a lot of questions. “How
could this infant have mortal sin,” you know, was one of my questions when I was

15

�very, very young. But then I would see -- you know, my mother was very
principled. She was very honest. She was very devoted to her family, her
children. She loved us all. Even though we were all very different, she never
discriminated [00:28:00] or favored one over the other, although she did hold that
thing that -- if you were a woman, you had to make the beds. (laughter) She had
that, you know? It was ingrained already, but in other respects, she was an
incredible woman that -JJ:

So you had to be a cook or something like that if you were a woman?

FN:

Yeah, you had to know how to make tortillas because who was going to love you
if you didn’t know how to make tortillas? And then she was -- in the religion, you
can’t help but get a lot of this same male supremacy sense. You know, we didn’t
bow down to a female God. We bowed down to a male God only. So I became
very religious up to the point where when I was already in 11th, 12th grade, I
didn’t know how I was going to get out of the house. I wanted to get out of the
house, but I knew that to get married would be not for me. If I ran away from the
house, where would I end up? [00:29:00] How would I live? So I --

JJ:

Because of your mom or because of your dad, or...?

FN:

Well, because I started thinking.

JJ:

Because you started thinking, okay.

FN:

Because my mother said if I ran away, she was going to put me in juvenile, so
that was going to be a history of going into --

JJ:

You started challenging weakness?

16

�FN:

Mm-hmm. She was very, very stern, and she was my biggest enemy. But then
now, I think -- because I wanted to run around like crazy, you know? I mean, and
everybody does. When you’re young, you just want to cut loose, but you don’t
understand the responsibility of freedom. You don’t understand the responsibility
of liberty, and are real naive, so she had a good control on me. She used to say
I was the worst one of all the family because I used to question things a lot, so in
a way, I’m very grateful that she --

JJ:

Did she tell you that directly at a certain point?

FN:

[00:30:00] What did she --

JJ:

When did she tell you that?

FN:

Tell me what?

JJ:

That you were the worst one?

FN:

Oh, just in talking -- when I started getting a little bit better because when I was
by the age of 16, 17, she used to say, “(Spanish).” [00:30:16] But basically,
because I questioned everything -- you know, she would say, “(Spanish).”
[00:30:26] And I would say, “(Spanish)?” [00:30:30] Oh, my God, it was like,
“How could I even come up with a question like that?” Or, you know, when I
wanted to go out, she would say, “(Spanish),” [00:30:46] and I was so mad. And
then, you know, she would just -- sometimes I think I caused fear in her because
I would say, “Well, I don’t want any kids, you know.” “(Spanish)?” [00:31:00]
“You know, I don’t even want to bother with that,” and I was shocking, I guess, to
her. And sometimes I feel bad because I caused her a lot of grief, but she was
very, very strong and very principled and very high morals. And that, I learned

17

�from her. So like I said, I was in 12th grade, and I even thought of becoming a
nun.
JJ:

What school did you go to? What school was this?

FN:

Let’s see. I went to Miguel Hidalgo in elementary, and we never knew who
Miguel Hidalgo was. I had picked up a book and started learning who he was, so
when I transferred to a Catholic school for two years, I was very proud to say in
seventh grade that I came from Miguel Hidalgo. And most of the school that I
was at -- you know, they looked down at you because, “That’s dirt, you know, you
come from.” But I thought geez, you know, it was a Catholic school. [00:32:00]
They would uphold somebody like Miguel Hidalgo, you know, who fought within
the religion, and no, it wasn’t like that.

JJ:

Yeah, who was Miguel Hidalgo?

FN:

(Spanish)? [00:32:10]

JJ:

Who was he?

FN:

He was, in history, a priest that stood up for the common good -- he was a
communist, I guess you could say, you know -- and equality within the religion
itself. Just because you were a Mexican didn’t mean you couldn’t be a priest or
an archbishop or whatever. And I think that was mainly what I remember in
history, you know, that he fought for the Indigenous people to be dignified and to
be respected. So it didn’t go well in Catholic school.

JJ:

You wanted to be a nun.

FN:

[00:33:00] Well, at that time, I was really out of bounds, you know.

JJ:

Out of bounds?

18

�FN:

Yeah, I rebelled, I guess, a lot, and those were probably the most trying years for
my mother. But what I first told you -- the reason I wanted to go to Catholic
school is because I also sensed that there was a (Spanish) [00:33:27] like you
were going to be doomed to go to another public school on the other side of the
tracks. And it didn’t look very good because when the principal from Barbara
Worth came and gave a whole spiel on more or less the routine of what it was to
go to the other side of the tracks to a place called Barbara Worth, the main
questions that came from us in my peer group was, “Well, you know, what if you
play hooky? What’s going to happen?” And all they talked about [00:34:00] was,
“What if you offended the rules? What would happen?” And so, you know, of
course, they would tell you, “Well, you’ll be punished for this. This is the
punishment that’s going to happen.” And I kept thinking, “Well, why are they just
talking about that?” And there was also another reason. You know, I was a real
big flirt, and I heard that the girls at Barbara Worth were going to sort of kick my
ass because I was flirting with their boyfriends or whatever, so I thought, “Oh, my
God, I don’t want to go over there and get, you know, beat up.” So I told my
mother, “I want to go to Catholic school,” because, you know, she was a hard
worker. And she goes, “(Spanish)!” [00:34:42] You know, she thought I was
wanting to be a nun from then, I guess. She thought I was, you know, very
Catholic, but I had my personal intentions. But even then, I was curious about,
you know, the difference, and I did [00:35:00] have ambitions to get out of the
house somehow. But I didn’t know, so I figured, “Explore, you know? Adventure
into unknown territory.” So then I did, and then I went to high school. And I still

19

�didn’t know how I was going to get out of the house, so I figured that I could
become a nun. And then you read the story of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, you
know.
JJ:

Who is she? I don’t know her.

FN:

She was a person that had a lot of chances to get married. She had admirers,
but she chose not to. And she became a nun, and I think mostly because she
was a writer. She was a poet, and you couldn’t be both. It was very difficult to
be both a poet or an artist, a writer, and be married because when you get
married, you’re supposed to hang on or be subject to be controlled by your
[00:36:00] male partner. So I think that that was very significant about her, but I
wanted to become a nun because I wanted to get out of the house and under the
control of my mother. And that was my reason, you know. It --

JJ:

Now, she didn’t control you physically. It was just her --

FN:

No, physically, I didn’t go to wherever I wanted. I wanted to be out on the
streets, but she kept me home. I mean, I couldn’t go out of the house --

JJ:

Oh, okay, I see.

FN:

-- at 12:00 of midnight and ride around in a motorcycle or whatever you all do,
(laughter) but I did try. So luckily, EOP came around, and not only that --

JJ:

What’s EOP?

FN:

Educational Opportunity Programs, and it was through the efforts of Johnson’s
war on poverty. But of course, behind that was the Civil Rights Movement;
people that gave up so much, you know, that [00:37:00] dared to say, “I’m
human. I have dignity.” And so many people that gave up their lives and gave

20

�up so much so that I could go to school, and so that’s how I got into school. But
also, what was ironic is that I had an older sister who became a registered nurse,
probably the first one in the family or the whole Clan de Nuñez -JJ:

What was her name?

FN:

Rosa. Probably in the whole nation, she was the first registered nurse, (laughter)
but the reason she got into nursing school was because she was going to be like
my mother, a nurse aid. Got into the hospital working, and she was taking care
of this patient who was a ranchero. And this ranchero knew all of the Nuñez clan
that worked in the fields. I mean, my father came from a [00:38:00] family of 12,
so --

JJ:

He came from a family of 12, and there was 11 children too with --

FN:

Yeah he had, with my mother, eleven children, but he had a big family.

JJ:

So there was a big clan in that area?

FN:

Huge, so --

JJ:

In Imperial Valley, okay. Are they still there?

FN:

A lot of them are, and a lot of them have moved into LA and further on up San
Jose. So anyway, this ranchero knew all of the (Spanish) [00:38:34] and about
four or three sisters over there. And when he found out my sister was working
there as a nurse aid, out of somewhere, this ranchero who had a lot to do with
the exploitation of labor -- I mean, because you weren’t paid. I mean, the profit
that they made was never compared to the wages that were paid. [00:39:00] He
asked if she wanted to be a real nurse; I think that was the term, real nurse. And
my sister, I guess, probably didn’t really -- maybe she knew a little bit more, and

21

�she said yes. In other words, a registered nurse. Not just a nurse aid because,
you know, you have more responsibilities as a registered nurse, so you have to
be more educated in terms of administering medication and side effects and
reactions and what to do, and reporting to the doctor and keeping maintenance.
And he sent her to school, and he put it in his will before he died -- he was dying
-- that her education was going to get paid regardless whether he was around or
not. And the family abided by that, and these were the oppressors, you could
say; the people that, you know, took advantage of cheap labor.
JJ:

You’re talking about the ranchero

FN:

Yes, this ranchero [00:40:00] I don’t know his name, but --

JJ:

Did you look at him as the oppressor at that time, or no, you didn’t know that --

FN:

Oh, no, but I mean, when you start learning how the Imperial Valley -- I didn’t
know about the history of the Imperial Valley, you know, how the land was
occupied --

JJ:

What do you mean?

FN:

-- how the land was controlled by only blancos

JJ:

Okay, occupied meaning that it used to be --

FN:

That the land was there for people to use and make use of. You know, if you
walked around a piece of land, you could own it, but then those that had horses
used the horse to claim the land and then shot the ones that were walking, which
was mainly Mexicanos, you know? That’s the history that I know of. And then at
one time, they did have lawyers coming in from out of town, and I think some of

22

�’em were hanged before they got into town because they were in defense of the
common [00:41:00] good. So yeah, I -JJ:

So Rosa’s education was being paid for?

FN:

Yeah, my education was paid for with the lives of so many people. Any
educational opportunities was what it came out to be. But as far as how I
become spiritual or aspired to the spiritual is through education, and now this
education was not just in a classroom. A lot of our education in those days,
especially when you and I were young, was outside, you know, in the (Spanish),
[00:41:45] in the study groups that we had to understand the situation better.
Later on in life, you know, it took -- and I’m talking about [00:42:00] my retirement
now. When I was in my fifties, I started going back to school as a hobby because
I love education. I love, you know, this curiosity that I have, right, so I took
philosophy, the psychology of women, and the Old Testament and the New
Testament, and art. Oil painting, watercolor, you know, whatever, and so that’s
when I started getting into mythology. And then I came across Carl Jung, and
oh, my world changed. It was like I fell in love with this person.

JJ:

Who is Carl Jung?

FN:

Carl Jung is a psychologist, and he clashed with Freud because Freud was very
dogmatic. I mean, Freud was talking about penis envy, and he was talking
about, you know, knowing the mind. [00:43:00] You could call it playing on our
weaknesses and misinformation of male supremacy, and Carl Jung couldn’t go
along with him, and they had a breakup. But I think what Freud brought to the

23

�front was the aspect of dreaming, you know, how important dreams are, and then
Carl Jung took it to a -JJ:

[Another?] --

FN:

-- more explainable way, and Joseph Campbell too. I mean, Joseph Campbell
and Carl Jung were very much --

JJ:

Similar?

FN:

-- the same, uh-huh. The respect for the big dream, the acknowledgement that
the little dream -- you know, as an individual, how you can use dreams, omens,
or -- a way to prevent further damage, or a way to aspire to higher goals. But the
big dream is like the [00:44:00] collective consciousness, and the building of a
better world instead of the building of a world where you’re going to destroy it due
to greed, to putting profit ahead, you know, of --

JJ:

So are you more into it because the social or the mental health of it -- because
you were into nursing, and these are kind of the same philos-- I mean, they’re
into psychology, right?

FN:

Mm-hmm. Well, one of the reasons -- when I was very young, I always wanted
to be an artist, an actor. But my father, in this way, was practical. He says,
“(Spanish).” [00:44:42] And I would think, “God, you know, I guess the concept
of starving artist for the...” So I always saw, you know, that I had to have a
profession where I could eat and be comfortable, and [00:45:00] then I had my
older sister, Rosa, as an example of the feeling that you can depend on yourself
and not have to bow down to anyone else. So I always wanted that, and I never
wanted to get married. And I never wanted to have children, and I never wanted

24

�to go back to work in the fields. And maybe the reason -- because, you know,
you’re very badly paid.
JJ:

Because you did work in --

FN:

In the fields, yeah.

JJ:

-- the fields for yourself for how long?

FN:

Only when I was basically young. I think I started when I was in seventh grade. I
worked with a family member, and I used to get the boxes of the (Spanish),
[00:45:48] but she says, “(Spanish).” [00:45:50] You know, told me, “You let the
family name down,” so --

JJ:

So you had to work hard, eh?

FN:

Unloading boxes, you know, up there on the trucks and [00:46:00] stuff, but it
was sort of not out of a great need --

JJ:

Because that is that culture, right? You’re there, and you know it’s hard work, but
somebody’s putting even more pressure on you to do it faster and --

FN:

Uh-huh. But in a way, it wasn’t out of great need, you know, because the money
that I did make, I used for clothes to go to school. And the other thing that I did
when I made my first big money according to those days -- I actually promised
that I was going to give to the church too, and I remember putting 20 dollars in
the basket, a 20-dollar bill. In 1964, that’s a lot of money, tons of money, but I
did it. And at that moment, it was like a promise to myself that when you say
something -- that’s what I learned from my mother -- [00:47:00] your word is very,
very precious. And it’s not something that you mess around with, so when you

25

�give your word, if you don’t, you know, go through with it, what kind of a human
are you? So she really put that into me.
JJ:

So you’re an artist?

FN:

Well, an artist at heart, but I became a registered nurse for practical reasons.

JJ:

Right, but what type of artist? I mean --

FN:

(laughter) Well, I always wanted to be an actor, and I love art. You know, I go to
this group, and I say, “I just love art. I love artists, you know,” and that’s usually
my intro.

JJ:

But what type of art?

FN:

What type of art?

JJ:

Because I mean, [00:48:00] I’m not that, you know, [endeared by?] art, but I
mean, I kind of --

FN:

What happened with me with art too is that I never really took it serious, and I’m
talking about drawing and painting and stuff. So when I was taking classes in oil
painting -- you know, you start getting into understanding who Da Vinci was and
Picasso, Diego. And then you read a little bit of the history. You know, Diego
was a communist. Frida was a communist. Picasso was a communist, and
you’re thinking, “Well, geez, you know, artists are supposed to be apolitical.” You
know, that’s the understanding that comes across. Andy Warhol, for example,
became very famous, and you’re thinking, “Well, all he did was a bunch of prints
of a tomato soup can or Marilyn Monroe in different colors.” So you don’t
understand, and you’re thinking, “Well, what’s the big deal, you know?” And so
then you start [00:49:00] reading, and again, here comes education, that he

26

�appealed to the manufacturing of goods. So he appealed to the whimsical, the
upper class; you know, the manufacture of goods. And so now, I look at those
prints -- for example, Marilyn Monroe -- and say, “Okay, I got to get my boobs
fixed. Oh, I want a pink shoe, a yellow shoe, blue shoes.” And again, you know,
it’s like what I brought up earlier. You baptize your kid when they’re infants
because they have mortal sin, and you really don’t understand it, but you have a
big party. So, you know, now you look at these pictures, and somewhere
somehow in the background, you say, “I have pink shoes, but now I need blue
shoes.” And do you need them, or is it just this consumerism that we have
gotten into? You know, it’s like a [00:50:00] infection, you know, that has taken
us to this barrage of commercials. If we invested more time into education than
in commercials, can you imagine where we would be? This country supposedly
is one of the most richest countries in the world, and yet our education is at a
very low level. Our health is at a very low level, and the processing of food -- we
don’t understand what we’re doing to our children feeding them potato chips. All
of the hormones that go into beef, antibiotics to keep ’em from rotting -- I didn’t
know what veal was. I’ve never had it because it was always so expensive, but I
always wondered. And when I read what veal is -- you know, you put a little cow
in [00:51:00] a box, and you don’t let it move, but you inject it with antibiotics the
whole time so that it doesn’t rot. So then this meat is what you eat, and it’s
tender and everything, you know, what they say about veal. And you’re thinking,
“Oh, you know, how can you eat that,” understanding the background. And this

27

�is why education is so precious. It’s incredibly precious, and to survive, to thrive,
you have to educate yourself.
JJ:

So you went to that high school. What high school was this?

FN:

I went to, I’m sorry, Brawley Union High School.

JJ:

And then how --

FN:

I went to Our Lady of the Sacred Heart School, but I remember one time doing a
paper, and I put Our Lady of the Sacred Heart. But I didn’t know it and I
misspelled it, and I put Our Lady of the Scared Heart. And I did it unconsciously,
[00:52:00] but now I wonder -- you know, because well, first of all, spelling, right?
But I remember the nun getting up there in front and just lecturing us about
disrespect, and I was, the whole time, wondering why was she going on and on.
Well, it was based on the title of my paper, Our Lady of the Scared Heart. But
yeah, from Sacred Heart, I went to Brawley Union High School. And then from
Brawley Union High School, I was able to get into what they call San Diego State
College in those days. And then it was changed to San Diego State University.

JJ:

Right. There was a lot happening at San Diego State University over there at
that time. Alurista was there, right?

FN:

Yes.

JJ:

And then --

FN:

Nationalism at its highest peak.

JJ:

Okay, well, explain who he was and what he --

FN:

Alurista --

JJ:

Because I met him in Denver, but I didn’t know --

28

�FN:

-- as far as I understand, was a --

JJ:

[00:53:00] -- too much about him.

FN:

He was from Tijuana, then he was able to go to high school here in the United
States. And then he got into San Diego State, and he became a poet and read
up a little bit on Aztec history. And well, at that time, he was the know-it-all on
culture, so --

JJ:

So know-it-all meaning --

FN:

Meaning that --

JJ:

-- he was well-known?

FN:

-- the younger ones that were coming in, you know, used to think, “Well, geez,
you know, he knows a lot.”

JJ:

And didn’t he come up with the concept of Aztlán, or...?

FN:

Well, I guess, yeah, but when you --

JJ:

But he was a know-it-all of Aztec --

FN:

Yeah, he was probably the one that knew the most at that time, and we thought - but that’s a whole other area to cover. But did you [00:54:00] want to go into
that now?

JJ:

Just briefly if you know.

FN:

Yeah, he became a poet. And because we knew him personally, we didn’t really
swallow everything. I mean, at least I didn’t, and I know my friend, Sylvia, who
was my hitchhiking buddy -- we ventured out of the box. I mean, as it is, we
ventured out of the box when we left our homes. Then, you know, we get into
San Diego State, and we venture out of the box when everybody’s in the high on

29

�nationalism to the point where it almost becomes fascist, you know? Everybody
goes, “(Spanish).” [00:54:39] And you go, “Wait a minute. You know, here we
go again, the ingroup thing.” And so Sylvia Romero and I came together at some
point when we first started San Diego State. As a matter of fact, I heard from her
that she thought I was just a (Spanish), [00:54:58] you know, [00:55:00] from
Brawley.
JJ:

What’s a (Spanish)? [00:55:01] I’m sorry.

FN:

A (Spanish) [00:55:02] is a very rough, I guess, character that paints their face a
lot, and is very cool and very rough. This person can be very rough, but yet
she’s very controlled by men. That’s what I think, you know. They have a
tendency to want to be, you know, themselves, but then somewhere, it gets -once they have children or once they get into drugs, that stops. So she thought I
was a (Spanish). [00:55:39] And then one time, she was rooming with my friend,
Maria Sanchez, who was from my hometown, and I was all dressed up. We had
gone to a fraternity party, me and our school friend, Henrietta, and I was all
dressed up.

JJ:

Who was your fraternity?

FN:

It was a fraternity, the [Gabachos?], you know?

JJ:

Oh, the [00:56:00] Gabachos, yeah.

FN:

Uh-huh, and that’s because it’s known as --

JJ:

The Gabachos is what?

FN:

The Gabachos? Anglos.

JJ:

Anglos, okay.

30

�FN:

And it was known as a party school, so hey, I wanted to find out, you know? I
didn’t care. I mean, I wanted to explore, so we went to it. And I was all dressed
up, and I was waiting for Maria Sanchez to come -- I don’t know where she was
at -- and Sylvia was there. And she kept looking at me, and I thought I was -after a while, I said, “You know, I better go because I don’t know what time she’s
going to be in, but tell her I dropped by.” We lived in the Olmeca dorms at San
Diego State. And so from then on, she had a different impression of me, so then
that’s how we started hitchhiking and how we started sharing our views to some
extent.

JJ:

Hitchhiking where?

FN:

To San Francisco.

JJ:

Okay, right before that?

FN:

Uh-huh, and then she was also with me --

JJ:

What year was this that you did that?

FN:

Oh, probably 1969 --

JJ:

Sixty-nine.

FN:

-- 1970, something like that. As a matter of fact, we got picked up by Cesar
Chavez in his cart. [00:57:00] Oh, but she was the one that was in Denver,
Colorado with me to the Denver youth conference that Corky Gonzales -- when I
met you.

JJ:

Okay, but this -- what was the Denver conference about? Which one do you
mean?

FN:

The Denver conference -- what was it about?

31

�JJ:

Because for us, that was a big, you know --

FN:

Oh, geez, I had no idea. I mean, first of all, I thought I had gotten out of the box
when I had left my home, but I was just going to go get my nursing degree and
go work as a nurse and have my place. I always wanted a bunch of cats, and
that was -- you know, be independent and have a bunch of cats in the house.
That was my dream. And so we get there to San Diego State, and I never was
even in an organization, first of all, because my mother couldn’t really afford -like I said, she had tight reins on me [00:58:00] for the longest time. And I think
she did it because I was probably the most wild one, so I couldn’t even be -maybe I would’ve pushed it, but I wasn’t in any volleyball teams or any athlete
teams outside of schools and no organizations at all, nothing. So I was
introduced to San Diego State, and they had this MAYA program, Mexican
American Youth Association. And I thought, “Wow, what’s an organization? You
know, what do they do,” this, you know, curiosity because I got the sense that
because of people’s struggles, I was able to get into school. That was one of my
initial understandings, so I felt an obligation to this organization. And then
through them, I got to go to the Denver conference, and it was a youth
conference. And I really had no idea what it was about expect that it was this
man called [00:59:00] Corky Gonzales who had this poem, but you know, even
with that --

JJ:

What was the poem?

FN:

Yo soy Joaquín.

JJ:

Yo soy Joaquín, okay.

32

�FN:

Which was very, very powerful, but still, I had a sense of being left out. And yet,
it was a sense of pride.

JJ:

He also was a boxer at one time, right?

FN:

Yes. But basically, what was emphasized was the respect, the dignity, the power
of the male image. But I still thought I had a chance, you know, because it still
gave me pride. Because, you know, being from that culture, that background, I
identified with it on an equal basis, although I didn’t sense it too much from the
poem until years later. I go back and read it, then I go, “Whoa, where’s the
women,” you know? (laughter) But either way, it was a step just like MAYA was
a step into being proud of my identity. [01:00:00] You know, in school, I was
known as Phyllis [Nunns?], and I became Felícitas Nuñez. And I was always
like, “God, you know, why did my mother give me this name? You know, who
has a name like that?” And now, it was like, “Whoa, my name is Felícitas,” and I
wasn’t embarrassed or ashamed of it. So we go to the Denver, Colorado
conference, and oh, my God, it was immense. It was like being in an ocean.

JJ:

And what year was this?

FN:

Was it 1969?

JJ:

Sixty-nine or ’68.

FN:

Sixty-nine.

JJ:

Or ’69.

FN:

And that was my first introduction to a massive --

JJ:

Who was there, and --

FN:

Who was there?

33

�JJ:

-- what kind of population?

FN:

Basically Mexicanos that I knew of, and that’s where I discovered [01:01:00] that
my cousin, Manuel Delgado -- because I saw him on film getting beat up. The
concept of Third World hadn’t entered into my life yet, and that’s how I connected
with my cousin into the Third World and started hitchhiking to San Francisco.

JJ:

Mm-hmm. He got beat up, you said. What do you mean?

FN:

He was one of the leaders in the Third World at Berkeley; you know, students
fighting for --

JJ:

What’s his name again?

FN:

-- recognition. Manuel Delgado, and he also put out a book called The Last
Chicano.

JJ:

The Last Chicano.

FN:

So he --

JJ:

So he was getting beat up by the police?

FN:

Uh-huh.

JJ:

Oh, he did.

FN:

Yeah, he did by the police, but that’s how I recognized him at that conference.
And one of the persons that was there already that I got to know later was
Manuel Gomez.

JJ:

And who was he?

FN:

He was also at Berkeley, and he knew my cousin. So anyway, it was --

JJ:

And who were some of the other groups that were there?

34

�FN:

The other groups? People [01:02:00] I didn’t know. There was a lot of students.
And I remember we were sitting down, and Alurista was there, the great poet, I
guess. And these young girls came --

JJ:

That’s where I met him. I didn’t --

FN:

“Oh, Alurista!” And we’re looking like, “What’s wrong with them?” You know,
they looked like kids that were very excited by this guy that we knew, and we
were like, “What the hell’s going on here,” you know? (laughter) But that was
them from the outside and us from the inside, you know, having a different view
or, you know, sense of saying, “What’s the big ruckus about,” right? But I think
most of the people there were Mexicanos from all over. Very, very exciting, but I
guess, you know, what caught my eye was the Young Lords. Oh, and talking
about, you know, Sylvia and I going out of the boxes from our house and then
into an organization, and then into Denver -- well, at Denver, I do recall, you
know, that the people from San Diego wanted to [01:03:00] stay in a little group.
And Sylvia had this, I think, sense of also exploring because we didn’t stay with a
group. I mean, it was like, “Hey, you know, keep connected,” but this was a time
to just explore. And I remember them going, you know, like this, and we were
just going, “Hey!” (laughs)

JJ:

Who was they?

FN:

I think I remember --

JJ:

Some of the Young Lords? We were doing that, or no?

FN:

No, the ones from San Diego State.

JJ:

Oh, from San Diego State telling you --

35

�FN:

Yeah, and --

JJ:

-- “Come onto our group.”

FN:

-- we were just waving to them, “Bye,” you know. And I remember sitting next to
one of the Young Lords, and he called himself Che because he says the police
were after him, and he didn’t want to say his real name. And we’re in the picture.
He’s in the picture with me and --

JJ:

Oh, that’s him? Okay.

FN:

Maybe I should’ve brought that book or -- it’s all worn out.

JJ:

No, you can bring it here later. We’ll get that later.

FN:

But what really, really caught my eye was you. [01:04:00]

JJ:

Cut this. (laughs)

FN:

No, you can’t cut this. I had never seen a human like you. I mean, you were
white, and your features were Negroid, and then you had blue eyes. And then
with the purple beret that you wore, I just -- “What the hell is this,” you know?
(laughter) I mean, it was almost repulsed, and then attraction at the same time. It
was an incredible -- I don’t know. To me, it was the highlight of the whole Denver
conference. And of course, probably a lot of other women fell for you at the
same time, but that’s what I remember very significantly. Later on in talking to -Iris Morales?

JJ:

In New York?

FN:

Uh-huh.

JJ:

Yeah, Iris Morales, okay.

FN:

Uh-huh. She said that [01:05:00] at the heighth of -- and I remember there was --

36

�JJ:

Because she was there too. I didn’t know that until today.

FN:

-- fist fights because you had the nationalists fighting the internationalists, and
the concept was the class struggle. And the ones from Berkeley were more
exposed to the third world concept of class struggle, (Spanish) [01:05:25] then
you had the other ones that were real Mexicanos. “Oh, no, we have to stay with
(Spanish), [01:05:28] and our women have to be with us,” and you know, that
kind of thinking, but that happened. And what was the worst part is, again, the
ingroup, the limiting, the exclusiveness that comes around. And Iris says that
she had forgotten or maybe put it out of her mind because it was so painful to
think about it or even try to think about it that the Young Lords were told to get
[01:06:00] rid of the brothers that were dark.

JJ:

Okay, and let me just make sure that we get this. Iris Morales is from the --

FN:

From the New York --

JJ:

-- New York Young Lords, okay.

FN:

And she --

JJ:

And now, you said about getting rid of the brothers that were dark --

FN:

That were Black, that looked --

JJ:

Who was told that?

FN:

The Young Lords from New York.

JJ:

Oh, were told to get rid of the --

FN:

Or get them out of the conference because they weren’t the right color. They
were too dark.

JJ:

Oh, at the conference, you said?

37

�FN:

Denver conference.

JJ:

Oh, I didn’t know that there was some -- okay, so there was --

FN:

And she said that --

JJ:

Because there was two conferences. Maybe they were at the second one.

FN:

Oh, maybe that was the second conference.

JJ:

They were at the second conference because the first one, I think, was maybe
Chicago Young Lords at that time.

FN:

Did you guys have any --

JJ:

But I mean, she was there too. Like you said, she was there, but then there was
the next -- we went to the second conference there the following year in ’69. So
we did go to that, and then there was one in ’68. Was there --

FN:

I don’t remember that one in ’68.

JJ:

Okay, but maybe that was in ’70 that they went to.

FN:

Mm-hmm. [01:07:00] So that was just an example of, you know, how limited our
views are that Iris said, “You know, how could we tell our Black brothers to leave
the conference?” And (Spanish); [01:07:13] you know, brown, or --

JJ:

Yeah, I wasn’t aware of that. So that happened in --

FN:

That happened.

JJ:

-- what, probably the ’70s?

FN:

Probably.

JJ:

And again, I’m not sure if that --

FN:

But Iris could bring it up.

JJ:

But she did say that that happened?

38

�FN:

Yeah, so they left. They all left.

JJ:

But who was telling ’em to leave the conference?

FN:

I guess the leaders who were organizing the conference. She could tell you
more, but the --

JJ:

Okay. Like you said, there’s racism within our communities.

FN:

There’s racism within the family. I mean, when you have a child that’s lighter,
you’re going to -- you know, it happens. You know, the one that light is always
told how beautiful she or he is compared to the darker ones.

JJ:

Right, [01:08:00] that is --

FN:

But that’s what I mean. We carry the scars so deep.

JJ:

Right, because my mother was excited. She says I’m going to be a lawyer
because I’m light-skinned, and I told her, “Well, when they go to court...” (laughs)
But --

FN:

Uh-huh, you went to court too. So yeah, that’s what Iris remembers, and I --

JJ:

And the conference was very -- you know, it impacted us. How did it go for --

FN:

Oh, we came back as MEchA, which was, in a way, a good concept because it
was uniting all of the school organizations in the universities. And at the same
time, it started taking away the autonomy. You know, if you’re moving your
fingers, you don’t have to move your feet and vice versa. But when it’s all under
one control of heading, everybody’s [01:09:00] got to move, and you got to
balance it. You know, “Yes and no, yes and no.” But what happens is the
MEchAs got controlled by more of the administration coming from the institution.

JJ:

Can you explain to me -- what is MEchA? I mean, what is it?

39

�FN:

MEchA’s Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán.

JJ:

Aztlán, okay. And so you came up with that concept, or other people --

FN:

No, we went back with that concept of the --

JJ:

But why? Was there a MEchA group there already, or no?

FN:

No, we were MAYA.

JJ:

You were MAYA, but you turned into MEchA.

FN:

Uh-huh, and then there was --

JJ:

So MAYA turned into MEchA?

FN:

Uh-huh. All of the autonomous organizations in the universities had their own
names like --

JJ:

So MEchA was a coalition name?

FN:

Mm-hmm, yes, like an umbrella.

JJ:

Like an umbrella, yeah, okay.

FN:

But at the same time, they get --

JJ:

So what were some of the other groups? What other --

FN:

You know what? I don’t remember, but --

JJ:

Okay, but there were a lot of [01:10:00] autonomous groups --

FN:

Mm-hmm, there was a lot of the --

JJ:

-- and then MEchA became the umbrella?

FN:

Mm-hmm. But the autonomous groups were, I think, more united in our concept
of political consciousness, collective consciousness. Later on with MEchA, it
becomes more watered down, and maybe because of the times too, you know.

JJ:

Collective consciousness. What does that mean?

40

�FN:

Collective consciousness? That all of us wanted to do good for the greater, and -

JJ:

It becomes watered down as that --

FN:

Watered down to that -- it becomes more under the control of institutionalized
administration. You know --

JJ:

So the school itself?

FN:

-- now, it’s limited. “No, you can’t strike. No, you can’t protest.” It was like a --

JJ:

So the schools come in, they give you a little money, and then they start to
intrude? Or am I putting words in your mouth?

FN:

No, actually, MEchA -- [01:11:00] well, it’s a way of getting funds from the school
too, you know, but --

JJ:

So -- go ahead, I’m sorry. [What were you saying?]?

FN:

No, I just think that to some extent, it got weakened when it became MEchA in
general, you know, as opposed to giving everybody their autonomy. And yet,
having that understanding that we are all there to bridge from higher education to
the community -- because one of the strongest concepts we had was to always
keep that bridge open and enforced where the community and the higher
echelons of education have that connection. You know, but MEchA seemed to
lose weakness along with everything else, though, because look at what
happened in the late ’60s and the ’70s after all of that protesting of civil rights and
stuff. We did get more opportunities. We were able [01:12:00] to progress. I
mean, I was able to get a job. Now, some people have master’s, probably even
PhDs, and they can’t find a job. So, you know, things seem to get worse, and

41

�you know, the education has slacked off. And I’m talking about not just
classroom education, but education of the collective consciousness where we
keep together, you know, that commonality of doing social justice. So -JJ:

And it was vibrant at that time.

FN:

Oh, it was at its heighths because of the Civil Rights Movement. It had such an
impact. And you know, there’s a book by bell hooks that I have not read, but that
I have heard of. She explains how the hippie movement -- [01:13:00] that was
very significant for me. It also had a very big impact on me because it was
talking about even closer to Mother Earth style that I think we all need. But
somehow, it started getting very -- the Civil Rights Movement had that approach
of, you know, doing things under nonviolence. Cesar Chavez was incredibly
strong in that, you know, to bring social justice --

JJ:

And you said you remember him.

FN:

Oh, yeah. I mean, he led a lot of people, but I’m just talking about in general of -what happened to our movement is that drugs completely invaded every single
organization down to the communities, and then the image of the (Spanish)
[01:13:52] started taking over. You know, from the civil rights, it went into -- the
Black Panthers came from there, the Brown Berets, [01:14:00] and it was like this
big, macho stance that it became so testosterone. You know, we started
adopting this imbalance within the movement that could’ve been more
progressive if we had kept balance with what you can call feminine energy or that
energy that Cesar Chavez had or that Gandhi had or Mother Teresa had. You
know, that energy of nurturing was sort of pushed to the side, and this other

42

�forcefulness took place that went along with the institution that we have in
government, you know.
JJ:

So you felt that this new movement that was being created, the New Left, the
Brown Berets, the Black Panthers, the Young Lords, and all that --

FN:

Later --

JJ:

-- was just a macho movement. [01:15:00] And --

FN:

Uh-huh, became a macho movement, and I’m not saying it was that consciously.
I’m saying that because we lack education and critical analysis. Critical analysis
is so essential to the way we act because you start saying, “Well, wait a minute.
What did I do?” Again, you know, “If I do this today, how is it going to affect
seven generations ahead?” We don’t think like that, so the fact that you come
out as a big macho and forceful -- you know, what is this effect going to have on
your children, on elderlies looking at you on television or a movie or whatever?
We really have to understand what we’re doing. And of course, we’re going to
make mistakes, you know, but when you’re educated, it helps a little bit more.
And I’m not saying that you get educated in [01:16:00] higher institutions. I’m
saying education on your own where you explore, where you read on your own,
where you even hold book clubs; study groups, which is about the same. But
where you understand yourself, how you’re going to affect others, how it’s a
global, you know, village -- I mean, I just learned about the Gregorian time and
the 13 moons, that the ancients used to have a 13-month moon calendar. And it
was turned into a 12-month which became a machine for making money. Twelve
months, 60 minutes -- that’s what we live by. “How much money am I going to

43

�make every hour,” instead of seeing the cycle of the moon is between [01:17:00]
women’s hips, you know? And that 13-month was -- you knew that the cycle of
the moon moved in 28 days completely, and you were in rhythm with the
cosmos. I mean, now we have to have special classes to connect us to the
cosmos, you know? Take a yoga class and, you know, go over there on the
other side of the world to do mantras or meditation. We all had it; it was part of
our nature. This is going back to the Indigenous understanding of respect and
love for nature. I told you I can talk forever.
JJ:

No, you’re doing fine.

FN:

Did you --

JJ:

So --

FN:

-- want a break?

JJ:

It’s up to you, but I don’t --

FN:

No, I don’t. Watch out for that.

JJ:

Okay, so what about the women that were involved? There were women in the
Panthers. There were women in the Brown Berets. [01:18:00] There were
women in the Young Lords.

FN:

The Young Lords.

JJ:

And the --

FN:

Well, you probably have a good idea. It’s that they probably felt left out, and they
became a meat market. You know, it was a place to go -- yeah, you became a
Brown Beret, but look at all the women that are going to come to you. (laughs)
Or they have the same -- women love men in uniform whether it’s a prison

44

�uniform or a Brown Beret or a police or -- I don’t know. That’s a saying. I guess
it applies to everybody in a uniform, (Spanish) [01:18:36] the lack of the respect
of women taking leadership, I think, was one of the downfalls. And it continues to
be a downfall because you don’t see women that are for the common good in
leadership positions. Most likely, you will see women [01:19:00] as heads of -(Spanish) [01:19:01] COEs or people that are head of corporations? What -JJ:

CEOs?

FN:

CEOs, uh-huh. And they have done testing where these women have more
testosterone than the men because they have had to fight in this greedy,
masculine, profit-making world, you know. They have built up more testosterone
than men, and so this is the kind of woman you have in lead positions. But you
don’t have that nurturing, and any man that has this nurturing is considered soft.
I mean, I even remember Cesar Chavez being criticized because he was too
soft. He wasn’t strong and brutal and demanding, you know. He was a soft,
nurturing, inclusive -- he was incredible because I didn’t realize until a year ago
that one of his favorite songs was [01:20:00] De colores. And I always thought
that -- well, to me, it’s not a very romantic song. You know, most likely, I would
think of it a song for kids, but to him -- from what I understand, these women that
worked very, very close to him -- it was inclusive of everyone in the struggle for
workers’ rights, for the dignity of workers.

JJ:

Because De colores means “Different colors”?

FN:

Everybody, and that is amazing to --

JJ:

Like the colors of the rainbow. We had a rainbow coalition, so...

45

�FN:

And I think that if it hadn’t have been for my understanding of what the United
Farm Workers were at that time, I would have been probably very much spaced
out of it completely, out of the movement, because you saw a lot of this
aggressiveness, [01:21:00] a lot of disrespect, drugs. Then getting into the same
pattern that exploiters get into -- you know, making money and to hell with
everybody else, or just focusing on the nuclear family and to hell with everybody
else; putting away the elders and, you know, having no respect for them. So the
United Farm Workers, even though it’s not as strong as it used to be, had one of
the greatest impacts. And probably one of my biggest foundations is -- because
you could say I got to see Christ in action, you know, and that was Cesar’s
image. Because when I left my house, one of my vows to myself was that I was
never going to get mixed up with a Mexicano because of [01:22:00] my father’s
role in my life. I said, “Man, these Mexicanos are not good, you know?” So
when I saw Cesar Chavez, it was unbelievable that a man in such big power -maybe he didn’t recognize his power. Maybe he did, but he didn’t abuse it, and
to me, that was so incredible. And I had that opportunity to be maybe -- oh, my
God, I sat next to him, so I will go back to that story. When Sylvia and I used to
hitchhike, we were going to San Francisco to party with my cousin who was in
the Third World Movement, right, one of the leaders. And I remember I had
these pink, plastic, hard rollers because we were going to go party, and we were
outside of this little town called [Yuha?] at a gas station. It was dark. It was
about [01:23:00] probably ten o’clock at night, and so I’m in the bathroom. You
know, we had stopped at this bathroom, and we’re going to get out back on the

46

�freeway and start hitchhiking again. And she says, “Cesar’s here,” and I thought
she was talking about some guy at San Diego State. I said, “Oh, that guy! Can
he get away from us,” or something like that. So anyway, she’s serious now.
She says, “No, it’s Cesar Chavez.” I said, “What?!” You know, I couldn’t believe
it, so I walk out there. And sure enough, they saw us. You know, we were
coming out of the bathroom, (laughter) and I had this -- you know, they’re bright
pink rollers, hard plastic. And so, you know, I got so embarrassed because we
had been in Delano, and had been there helping out with the boycott with [?].
And I think, you know, we helped wherever we could. You know, we had gone
with the [Regretas?], who were very, very strong [01:24:00] as organizers and
everything else. They were very influential there, so I was afraid that he was
going to recognize me, but I guess, you know, he had too many people. He
didn’t, right, but he sent one of the guards over, and he says, “Cesar wants to
talk to you.” (laughter) I didn’t want to go because I was so embarrassed that the
only reason we were out hitchhiking was not to do any work for the common
good. We were out there to party. And so he said, “Well, what are you doing,”
and I lied to him. I said, “I have a very sick aunt in Fresno that I’m going to go
see.” I don’t know if he swallowed that story or not, but I sat in the backseat. I
remember sitting in the backseat, and my friend, I think, also -- they had two
guards and two dogs, or one dog. I don’t remember. And I remember I
questioned him about [01:25:00] nonviolence. I questioned him about the Black
Panthers, the violence, nonviolence, and he was, you know, very calm, very
patient. And one of the things I remember him talking -- because he used to say

47

�stories are very simple to the people. And I know this because of the women that
I have connected with in Coachella that he used to tell stories to be able to grasp
the people’s attention at a very folk level. And he says, “I’m a leader, and I’m
going up the mountain.” He says, “But when I get to the top, I can’t continue
down because they will lose sight of me. I have to stay very close,” and so, you
know, that’s the way he would explain it. He couldn’t do anything without the
approval or acceptance or the [01:26:00] belief of the people that were
supporting his philosophy.
JJ:

What do you mean, close to the people? You mean that was his important
[thing?] --

FN:

And there was no way you could just lash out in front like a big egotripper.

JJ:

But you were challenging his nonviolence. You mentioned the Panthers and
that.

FN:

Yeah, because I was telling him --

JJ:

Was that your frame of reference, or...?

FN:

Well, because people had always said, “Oh, you know, he’s too soft, and you
know, we need people out there that really know how to knock teeth out and --”

JJ:

So at one point, you did believe in that?

FN:

Well, no, I would hear --

JJ:

Oh, you would hear it.

FN:

-- and I would question, and I would think, “Well, why?”

JJ:

I mean, because the Panthers were more into self-defense. They weren’t really
promoting violence, but --

48

�FN:

Mm-hmm. But then again, it’s a lack of education, and on a personal basis, you
know these images that came across as very egoistic and very macho.
[01:27:00] Look at Chicago when they arrested those seven guys and -- who was
it, the guy that was the Black Panther?

JJ:

Oh, Bobby Seale, okay.

FN:

No, I don’t think it was Bobby Seale.

JJ:

Yeah, you mean the Chicago Eight trial?

FN:

Yeah, it was --

JJ:

Yeah, Bobby Seale was the eighth person.

FN:

But he didn’t want to cooperate with the other ones.

JJ:

Right, he felt it was important to be separated because of -- he was being
treated differently. He was an African American being treated different. He felt
that, you know, because of the --

FN:

See, but the way that comes out is that --

JJ:

We actually were taking people downtown when he was there.

FN:

Again, a lack of education because the way it comes out on the media is that he
just didn’t want anything to do with whities.

JJ:

No, absolutely not, because I remember the Panthers had a rainbow coalition.
We were part of that, and so was the Young Patriots.

FN:

(Spanish)? [01:27:55]

JJ:

Hillbillies were part of that, (laughs) so --

FN:

See, but --

49

�JJ:

[01:28:00] -- hillbillies wearing the rebel flag and all that of the South on their field
jackets --

FN:

Confederates?

JJ:

The Confederate flag on their field jackets were part of the rainbow coalition that
Fred Hampton of Chicago -- Bobby Lee also -- organized at that time. So like
you said, the message was not that [race was?] --

FN:

The media portrayed them as very brutal and uneducated, and of course, the
drugs infiltrated everywhere. They connected them with drugs.

JJ:

And you said a real good point there. The media [dug?] into that. The media,
you know --

FN:

So the questions that I got to ask --

JJ:

Okay, so --

FN:

-- Cesar Chavez was, well, how did he feel about the image of, you know, this
force. And maybe not in those exact words, but I was fishing for understanding.

JJ:

So you’re anti-macho, but you’re still saying, [01:29:00] “How come you’re not a
macho?”

FN:

Because I was fishing for understanding.

JJ:

Oh, you were fishing, so you were playing devil’s advocate at that point, which --

FN:

Yeah, well, I guess to some extent --

JJ:

At that time.

FN:

-- but he was very staunch in his explanations. I mean, he never felt challenged
by me in no way. You know, here, I had these big old pink rollers on, probably -I don’t know. I just --

50

�JJ:

Okay. Do you think that also maybe his movement was more mature than these
other movements that were just beginning, or -- I’m putting words in your mouth.

FN:

Yeah, well --

JJ:

Could that have been it too, or...?

FN:

-- I’ll tell you I thought there was more discipline, more respect, more dignity, and
there was less of this brutal image that came out. You know, [01:30:00]
(laughter) with the Brown Berets and with the shades, you know, they came out -

JJ:

Yeah, that’s how it was. I mean --

FN:

You never saw Cesar Chavez do that.

JJ:

-- we had people like that too because actually, what I meant -- for example, the
Teatro Chicana, right? I mean, in the beginning of any organization, any
movement, you know, there’s a lot of mistakes made. You know, it takes a while
before it gets mature to be more inclusive, so tell me about the Teatro Chicana.
How did that form?

FN:

You don’t want to --

JJ:

Because that was --

FN:

-- take a break? You don’t want to get a more comfortable chair?

JJ:

Yeah, I could take five seconds, so a second with the --

(break in audio)
JJ:

Okay, so as --

FN:

So in general, I think what I want to emphasize is education is not just learned in
a university or a classroom setting, that education is learning [01:31:00] the

51

�inside of -- for example, I had no knowledge about the Black Panthers being so
expansive in their minds to be inclusive because the image I said that was
portrayed was that they were very macho, very into just Black people. That was
very, very strong. And everything else, you know, that is happening in our
movements is to emphasize the need to be critical and analytic (Spanish)
[01:31:39] we get a certain image of -- to understand, we really need to go further
than what is presented in front of us. And that goes for everything, so to be an
educated person is beyond a university credential. [01:32:00] It’s being a savant,
and to be able to intuit -JJ:

Savant?

FN:

Savant in understanding the need for people’s emotions to be interpreted in a
more objective way, to have respect for intuition or your gut feelings of certain
things that you don’t understand, but to explore it further; or go with your gut
feeling so that you’re able to progress.

JJ:

Okay, so you said --

FN:

So now, what happens -- one of the things that was always put out to us by the
macho mentality, and I’m talking about also women in the movement, was that
we were not [01:33:00] the same as the women’s liberation movement going on
at that time. And --

JJ:

What do you mean?

FN:

That, you know, we didn’t want to be identified with them, and yet, you know,
they were women. We all have vaginas in common, right, going back to the
common foundation. But the fact that we were a little bit more open -- we were

52

�very glad that most of the Anglos at San Diego State got the first women’s
studies department recognized in the nation at San Diego State University.
JJ:

At San Diego State? Okay.

FN:

And that was outstanding, and they did have an influence on us because we
were saying, “Yeah, you know, we’re all women,” and we had something very,
very common there. But this whole thing was this fear. “Oh, you know what?
You’re not a woman liberator. You’re not a feminist,” you know, so what is a
feminist? What is the origin of feminist? [01:34:00] It means “minus faith”. Fe,
faith; minus, feminine. That jump came about in the Inquisition.

JJ:

Oh, really?

FN:

When the Catholic church was dominating the Indigenous spirituality or religions,
women that had knowledge of medicine, women that were independent and very
intelligent, were labelled feminist because they had no faith in a patriarchal
institution. So they were hunted down, tortured, burned, killed, and murdered in
massive amounts to wipe out that connection to nature, that connection to the
intelligence of being able to measure. Menstruation [01:35:00] is so much
connected to the 13 moons in a year. It’s connected to mental -- mind, moon.
It’s connected to Medusa, the goddess which stands for medicine measurement.
And women of those days learned how to use -- just like today, except now it’s
put in a pill form, and it’s more institutionalized from a college. Whereas at one
time, it was in the hands of women who knew how to use these medicines and
became savants in how to cure, how to alleviate pain in labor, but they became
witches. And even the term witch means “wit”, that you had wit. And under

53

�dominating male supremist patriarchal religions, women [01:36:00] are not
supposed to be intelligent. I mean, even in the Bible, Eve wanted to have
intelligence, so she ate an apple. So from there, you know, we have our
foundation. Whether it’s very sanctioned, the sacred and whatnot, (Spanish)
[01:36:17] had that to go by. You know, “Hey, wait a minute. In the Bible, you
came from my rib,” and I’m going like, “You can shove that Bible wherever
because I’m not going to accept that.” So we have that foundation already in the
Chicano movement, and this struggle for being respected, for having dignity -because, you know, if you enjoyed sex, you were a slut. If you didn’t have sex,
you were labeled frigid or a lesbian. I mean, we got to a point where we said,
“So what? You know, [01:37:00] whatever you think -- what I’m doing is I’m
working towards a common good. That’s what’s important. That’s my action,
and whatever you want to label me because of your personal macho attitude also
coming from other women who...” Then, you know, it’s our action that’s going to
speak out, so we didn’t completely go with the women movement. I mean, we
stayed within our organization, but at the same time, without knowing, we had to
build the space. And I think that’s why the Teatro emerged because one of the
things that -JJ:

The Teatro Chicana, it was called?

FN:

The Teatro Chicana, but it was actually --

JJ:

It had different names, right? Did --

FN:

Actually, all of us were Chicanas, and the Teatro comes from a bigger group
because the women at that time in MEchA, you know, were feeling this sense of

54

�disunity and disrespect, so we band together. And one of the things -- we said,
well, we needed to have a conference where we could [01:38:00] tell our mothers
who we were, what we had become, and what we saw. And even though we
didn’t want to be in the tradition of our mothers, we still wanted them to know
where we were going. And also, at the same time, we developed study groups.
The Woman Question was one of the books that we read.
JJ:

Oh, you did read The Woman Question?

FN:

And then from the women’s movement, we learned about the origin of the family
state and private property, which gives you a good background on a different
view of how all of this happened. You know, the concept of private property, the
government, the inferiority of women as a whole -- so it’s a very good book that
became a basis, you know, of our understanding. And we had study groups, and
then we developed into our --

JJ:

What was the study group or reading group?

FN:

A study group was where we all read the same material, [01:39:00] and then we
rehashed it. “I have a different view. You have a different view,” so we try to put
all these views to make sense of where our understanding takes us to have
some kind of common ground. And so one of the main things is that we wanted
to include our mothers, which became later on -- now as I read from an article, it
was very significant because nowhere in the women’s movement did they bring
the mothers into the changes that they were going through.

JJ:

Was this when the play --

FN:

Chicana Goes to College?

55

�JJ:

Chicana Goes to College, okay.

FN:

You know, first, we had to separate from the family, the mother, the box of being
in a family and not moving from there. And then we move into the university
setting, which we find is conflict with trying to adjust because we came from -- we
were not college-prepared [01:40:00] students, so we were struggling in college,
you know. A lot of us dropped out. And okay, then we get into the Chicano
movement, and oh, my goodness -- slap in the face, you know? But we stayed,
and we struggled --

JJ:

What do you mean, slap?

FN:

Well, because of the disrespect. Like I said, you know, men could have all the
sex, and they were not downgraded. But if women had a lot of sex, they were
downgraded. Well, why? You know, what is this all about? So we were all in
the social justice movement. We were all there for equality, you know. What
was the double standard being played out, you know, within our social justice
movement? So the Teatro came out of a need to -- I guess what they call today
these fancy terms like a third space or sacred space maybe [01:41:00] where you
can express yourself; (Spanish), [01:41:03] your doubts. Because I mean, like I
said, you can be one of the most educated people, but you still make mistakes.
And we will always be learning, but it’s that experience of working through errors
and mistakes. It goes beyond what is learned in books, you know? It’s the
experience of walking hand-in-hand with education and experience, so the
Teatro became a sacred space, and I didn’t know it then. I didn’t understand the
importance of it.

56

�JJ:

Well, how was it formed? I mean, what was the --

FN:

Well, one of the --

JJ:

-- first meeting of the Teatro?

FN:

-- first things that I always remember is Delia Ravelo, who was the cofounder.

JJ:

Okay, and who was she?

FN:

Delia Ravelo was about two years younger than I was. She came in in 1970. I
came in in 1968, [01:42:00] so I was already mature, you know.

JJ:

Came into the school?

FN:

San Diego State University. And I remember her being with [a black rose on?],
and really, she didn’t want to look at me. But I sort of searched for her, and when
she looked at me, it was like some kind of connection that I couldn’t understand
at the time. But I knew that there was this need for these younger women to
connect somehow with those of us that knew a little bit more, and then on, you
know, we worked in the organization. We mopped and we swept, but we also
wanted to do speeches, you know. We also had a mind --

JJ:

What organization?

FN:

MEchA.

JJ:

Oh, okay, so she came into MEchA, and you met in MEchA.

FN:

Yeah, we were all in it, and we were very active.

JJ:

So the Teatro came out of MEchA?

FN:

Yeah, the Chicanas came out of MEchA. The Chicanas was a bigger [01:43:00]
group of women. The Teatro came out of this group of women.

JJ:

Of the Chicanas?

57

�FN:

Of Las Chicanas of San Diego State.

JJ:

So you have Chicanas that are separate from the other (Spanish)? [01:43:10]

FN:

Which other (Spanish)? [01:43:13]

JJ:

Because you said the Chicanas were a separate group of MEchA.

FN:

Well, Las Chicanas were the members of MEchA who were female, and so --

JJ:

As the --

FN:

-- from there, we formed the conference. And that conference is where the
Teatro emerged from.

JJ:

Okay, from MEchA --

FN:

Because (Spanish). [01:43:35]

JJ:

Okay, I’m thinking MEchA --

FN:

(Spanish) [01:43:40] --

JJ:

-- is a woman’s group, but it’s not a woman’s group. It’s everyone. MEchA’s
everybody.

FN:

The female members of MEchA --

JJ:

Okay, the female members of MEchA.

FN:

-- at that time. And maybe some of them weren’t even members of MEchA, but -

JJ:

Yeah, some of the --

FN:

-- we sort of magnetized towards each other.

JJ:

So the female members of MEchA [01:44:00] organized this Teatro?

FN:

No, organized the conference.

JJ:

Organized the conference.

58

�FN:

And from the conference, some of the women wanted, through poetry, dancing,
song, Teatro, a history panel, to do this for our mothers. So all of us were in the
same group, but we divided into doing different types of presentations for our
mothers. We became the Teatro because --

JJ:

And what was the first things that you did as a group?

FN:

We did Chicana Goes to College, which is the female --

JJ:

The play?

FN:

Yeah.

JJ:

Can you describe something of the --

FN:

She leaves the house. She gets into the university, conflicts with the university
and the superstructure and racism, and then the third stage is inequality within
her own movement [01:45:00] for social justice. So that was the foundation of
Teatro Chicana, although I thought that it was only going to be for our mothers.
But the ones that moved it forward was Delia Ravelo because as always, we
were always very active in MEchA. We were organizing a recruiting conference.
It’s an annual conference -- I still think it goes on -- where you get buses for all
the high school students around San Diego and ship them into a big auditorium
in San Diego, and then talk about recruitment and the opportunities of college
and whatnot. So she says, “Well, we should do that (Spanish) [01:45:38] for the
recruitment conference,” and I said, “No, that was for our mothers.” And then
she says, “But it still applies because it’s pushing forward the need for
education.” And so, you know, Delia Ravelo and Peggy Garcia were the ones
that really pushed it, and from then on, you know, we kept [01:46:00] on. You

59

�know, then the book explains the stages of Teatro Chicana, which goes into
Teatro Laboral, which goes into -JJ:

Which book is that?

FN:

It’s called Teatro Chicana, edited by Laura Garcia, Sandra Guiterrez, and myself.

JJ:

Okay. That’s a recent book that came out, or...?

FN:

In 2008 --

JJ:

Two thousand eight?

FN:

-- published by the University of Texas, and I guess this is where Laura comes in.

JJ:

Well, yeah. I mean, you can kind of describe it if you want to move [into it or?] --

FN:

No, I think she can take over.

JJ:

Okay. Well, let me ask you then about the murals at the church. Okay, what --

FN:

Well, the reason I went to Chicago -- I think I was 19 or 20, and I was going to go
see you. I was going to go be with you, but that didn’t happen. (laughs)

JJ:

Okay. But I mean, how was that --

FN:

Well, that’s part of the murals. So when [01:47:00] you and I did not become an
item in more or less terms, then I still had three weeks’ vacation. And my plane
ticket, you know, was for three weeks that I was going to stay in Chicago, and so
since I was at that time already with the intentions of becoming a registered
nurse, there was a clinic set up. And I remember --

JJ:

In the --

FN:

In the church, uh-huh.

JJ:

-- People’s Church? Okay.

60

�FN:

And so I started volunteering there. I said, “You know, just because you have a
personal breakup in a relationship, what does that mean?” That’s sad, you know,
but still, at that time -- to me, you know, you were my first revolutionary love, so I
love --

JJ:

Okay, but I don’t understand. How did you come to Chicago? What was the --

FN:

Because of you. Because of our revolutionary love that we had through letters.

JJ:

But when did we meet?

FN:

We met in Denver, Colorado.

JJ:

Oh, the Denver, Colorado conference, okay.

FN:

Mm-hmm. And so I started volunteering [01:48:00] at the clinic, and I --

JJ:

But did we establish a relationship in Denver, Colorado? I mean, I --

FN:

We connected as long distance lovers. (laughs)

JJ:

Oh, okay, I see.

FN:

Yeah, we wrote letters, and I have one of your letters.

JJ:

Okay, so you definitely have proof, great. (laughs)

FN:

Yes, so --

JJ:

Okay, so we connected. So we were writing letters?

FN:

Yes, uh-huh.

JJ:

At that point, okay. But then when you came to Chicago, I was married or -- I
wasn’t married legally.

FN:

You were with another woman --

JJ:

I was with someone else.

FN:

-- more or less.

61

�JJ:

And that’s what happened. I was a clown.

FN:

That and whatever, but anyway, it was a disappointment. But still, you know, our
love was bigger than just you and me, right, because we claimed our love for the
people.

JJ:

For the movement, so --

FN:

So I stayed around at the clinic and volunteered, and then I had the younger
Young Lords -- I guess, you know, your peer group that used to hang around.
It’s Cosmo and [01:49:00] Tarzan and --

JJ:

Yeah, we had --

FN:

-- [Comraddy?].

JJ:

-- different levels of the Young Lord. We had a local branch, a state branch, and
the national branch.

FN:

Well, I was just with the locals that hung around the neighborhood. And what
was so strange is that the Latin Kings used to hang out --

JJ:

They hung out there too, uh-huh.

FN:

-- a lot more than the Young Lords.

JJ:

Yeah, they hung out more on the street.

FN:

But the Young Lords, like I said -- Comraddy, Tarzan, Cosmo -- were around a
lot, and so we started cleaning the place, you know, because after you stay a
while, you say, “God, that’s messy,” you know? You start cleaning, so we were
putting things away and throwing stuff away, and we came to this closet full of
paints. And I told Cosmo or -- I don’t remember who it was -- Tarzan or
someone, “Hey, what’s all this,” you know? “Oh, that’s paint that they use for the

62

�church.” I said, “Oh, isn’t this going to waste, or is it going to be used?” He says,
“Oh, you know, well, we thought about putting a sign --”
JJ:

Well, [01:50:00] it came from the hardware store. It was a donation.

FN:

Oh, okay. “So we were thinking of putting a sign up, ‘The Young Lords’, in front
of the church.” And I said, “Well, why don’t you guys do it? The paint’s here. Do
it.” And so I think somebody did volunteer. I don’t remember who it was, but
they were doing the letters so crooked. I said, “You know, I can do better than
that, right?” Not that I was trying to put down the brother, but --

JJ:

But you were an artist.

FN:

No, I wasn’t an artist. I mean, I loved artists --

JJ:

You were --

FN:

-- and I was going to school to become a registered nurse, but I always wanted to
be an actor. And so the first one we did was Che Guevara, and I said, “Well, you
know, I can do the print.” And they say, “Well, how about doing this?” You know,
and so then --

JJ:

And then Che Guevara was right by the door, and I think it said “Young Lords
Organization” or “National Young Lords”, something like that. Do you have a
picture?

FN:

Yeah, I have a picture of it. [01:51:00] And then from there, one time --

JJ:

Lower it and hold it up to the camera there for --

FN:

-- you showed up.

JJ:

Oh, you have a picture of the church back then too.

63

�FN:

Yeah. This is how I looked when we met in Denver, Colorado. This is me talking
at the Denver, Colorado conference.

JJ:

You spoke there also? Okay.

FN:

Yeah, a little bit. I don’t know where this picture is.

JJ:

But the picture of the church is -- I mean, if it’s showing the murals. There’s none
with murals.

FN:

Yeah, these are the murals that Carlos Flores took pictures of. Otherwise, we
would have no knowledge about ’em, but --

JJ:

Actually, we have some photos too of the church.

FN:

Oh, yeah?

JJ:

Both Carlos and some of -- there’s a confusion of who was there.

FN:

Well, he was one of the main ones taking pictures at the time with a rinky-dinky
camera. Oh, yeah --

JJ:

There it is.

FN:

-- this is it, and it doesn’t look like Che Guevara.

JJ:

Okay, hold on one second.

FN:

But that was an attempt of the image at that time [01:52:00] to put forward.

JJ:

Okay, bring it up a little bit. Okay, there you go. Okay, so you painted Che
Guevara and “National Headquarters Young Lords Organization”?

FN:

Yes, uh-huh.

JJ:

Okay, so you painted our --

FN:

So then from there, I went on --

64

�JJ:

What do you call the sign of an organization in the front? Our logo. You just
painted the -- that wasn’t our logo, but that was our --

FN:

Uh-huh. I didn’t paint the one in the front of the church.

JJ:

You didn’t paint that big logo?

FN:

No, I didn’t.

JJ:

Oh, I thought that was you.

FN:

No, that was somebody else.

JJ:

Oh, so that was Peter Clark. Peter Clark was the other muralist, okay.

FN:

Yeah, no, I didn’t. I --

JJ:

Okay, I’m sorry. I thought that was you. Okay, but you painted Che.

FN:

But again, I was so mad at you, okay? You came one time, and you said, “Oh,
you should do this,” and so I sort of did follow it. I did Emeterio Betances, Lolita
Lebrón --

JJ:

That one was specific, I remember.

FN:

-- Pedro Albizu Campos, and then the last one -- I said, “I’m going to do one of
myself.” Not myself specifically, but --

JJ:

Adelita [01:53:00] de --

FN:

-- Adelita de Aztlán.

JJ:

Okay, but I did tell you to paint the ones --

FN:

Yeah, you went around one time, and you said, “I want you to do it.” But, you
know, I was going to be flying out in a couple of days, and then I was so mad at
you anyways, so yeah, I said, “No, I’m leaving, you know. I can’t do it,” or
whatever. So you must have gotten somebody else to do it.

65

�JJ:

Oh, you didn’t paint those?

FN:

Not the logo in front of the church, just everything on the side.

JJ:

So you put the --

FN:

All of the murals on the side are mine.

JJ:

Okay, if you could put that close to the camera --

FN:

But you can’t -- it’s not a very good picture.

JJ:

But if you put it close, you can see the --

FN:

Yeah, all of these on the side, I did; five, actually.

JJ:

On the side of the church.

FN:

And the one on the front must have been by Peter Clark, you said?

JJ:

Yeah, Peter Clark was the other muralist. And if you put --

FN:

(Spanish)? [01:53:44]

JJ:

Yeah, there you go. Leave it right there. Okay, so you painted those right there
on the side of the church.

FN:

All on the side, Emeterio Betances --

JJ:

Lolita Lebrón.

FN:

Lolita Lebrón --

JJ:

And then --

JJ:

-- and Pedro Albizu [01:54:00] Campos.

JJ:

Right, okay, because --

FN:

And that came out of an attraction for you, all of those murals. But like I said, you
know, I always understood my attraction to you -- that was my first revolutionary
love, so it was bigger than just the two of us.

66

�JJ:

Right, and [I couldn’t be?] --

FN:

And the murals were that explosion into a bigger part of us, and that’s how they
got done.

JJ:

Okay, we definitely appreciated it. They’ve had an impact for the community,
and it, you know...

FN:

You know, I remember people used to stop and look at them, and they’d say,
“Oh, she’s a gypsy.” They didn’t know who I was. “She’s a teacher that was --”

JJ:

Oh, while you were painting it, you mean?

FN:

Yeah. And then I remember people would feed me sometimes because I mean,
geez, you know, I was there with nothing. And I got fed, you know, and then --

JJ:

Because we had [01:55:00] food with the breakfast program and all that stuff --

FN:

And then Hilda also --

JJ:

-- so everybody kind of ate. Oh, you met Hilda at that time?

FN:

Oh, yeah, I was living with Hilda. I stayed with Hilda. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have
had a place --

JJ:

Oh, was it Hilda Ignatin, or another Hilda? An older woman or a younger --

FN:

No, younger. She was --

JJ:

Oh, Hilda --

FN:

Yeah, Hilda.

JJ:

-- [Torres?].

FN:

That’s how come I remember her so well because without her, I wouldn’t have
had a place to stay. And she allowed me to stay there, and I could come and go
as I pleased, you know, so that was very helpful.

67

�JJ:

So I mean, you’re coming in there talking about image. You know, we were a
gang. I mean, we didn’t incubate. We went right from the gang into the political
group, so we made a lot of mistakes because --

FN:

Oh, we all did.

JJ:

-- of that. Where other groups were able to sit back and do a study group or
something, we just went right into that. But I mean, can you describe the -- when
you first come here, [01:56:00] I mean, you’re expecting one thing, but you still
saw those people working. How were they? I mean, we’re just right out of the
gang, you know, but how did you see it?

FN:

Well, I know they had the slogans, right, because as soon as I left the airport
when I got into Chicago, I got on a taxi. Get off the taxi, see you with another
woman, and then there was a parade -- Puerto Rican Day, July. And all of the
slogans -- everybody was well aware of Libre Puerto Rico and --

JJ:

In the neighborhood, you mean?

FN:

Yeah, right there at the side of the church, people were organizing for the march.
And all of these community -- like Cosmo --

JJ:

Oh, so we’re having a demonstration as you come in?

FN:

And we march.

JJ:

And it’s about Free Puerto Rico?

FN:

Mm-hmm.

JJ:

Is it --

FN:

But it was Puerto Rican Day. It was a big parade in Chicago, and [01:56:00] we
didn’t have a license or permission to be in that parade, but there we were.

68

�JJ:

We got in. That’s what I remember, right.

FN:

Uh-huh, and I mean, I said, “Dang,” you know?

JJ:

And we got in, and we’re talking about Free Puerto Rico, right?

FN:

Yes, uh-huh.

JJ:

Yeah, I remember [I had a girlfriend?], and this is probably [why you remember
that one?]. So you came in right at that moment as we --

FN:

And I was in the parade without permission from the authorities.

JJ:

(laughs) And we went right in.

FN:

Yeah, we were in there, so I knew that there was a lot of heart. There was a lot
of poverty. There was a lot of ignorance, but there was this willingness to --

JJ:

Poverty? What do you mean?

FN:

When I went to the store on the corner, the vegetables were bad, you know, to
me. Coming from an agricultural rural community where they looked so beautiful,
you know, I just thought, “Wow.” And then where I stayed with Hilda -- I mean, it
was infested. I remember it [01:58:00] being infested with roaches, you know,
because --

JJ:

You’re talking about somebody else’s house now. (laughs)

FN:

Well, no, the apartments that people lived in -- very crowded, very dark, and you
know, dingy.

JJ:

But was it in that community?

FN:

Uh-huh.

JJ:

Okay, so what --

69

�FN:

Yeah, I used to walk every day to the church to continue painting, and so I
remember that. And then I remember that people don’t have access to
recreation, so the hydrants were open, the water hydrants.

JJ:

So they were open. Yeah, I --

FN:

And then one time, the police came and shut ’em off twice. And the third time,
they showed up with billy clubs and paddy wagons, and people got arrested and
everything. I mean, that was one of the first kind -- I mean, I was sort of
shocked. I was barefooted because, you know, we had been going in and out of
the water, and I had been painting, you know. And I just went to get my feet
cooled off, and they had the congas. You remember everybody used to play the
congas? And everybody [01:59:00] came out of their little what you call ratholes,
I guess, or their little houses or places that they had. And all the children playing,
dancing, and running, and the mothers, you know, gossiping -- I mean, it was
very, very community, and all the congas were fabulous. You know, the
heartbeat of that beautiful darkness was there, and yet -- you know, so much
light and water and children running, and people in the community. And the third
time when the cops showed up, they showed up with all of this force, you know,
and they stood in a row. And, you know, I remember they started -- I said, “What
are they going to do,” you know? And so they started charging, and somebody
says, “Run!” Somebody grabbed me, and we were running through the alleys in
broken glass. You know, I cut my feet and [02:00:00] everything. We were
hiding behind trash cans, and I remember the cops coming and banging the trash

70

�cans looking for anybody, I guess, they could get a hold of. And people did get
arrested that evening, so that was an eye-opener for me.
JJ:

But the community -- how did they feel towards the Young Lords?

FN:

Well, they all looked very at peace, and they were enjoying the congas. And they
were enjoying whatever little scenery there was. You know, part of the murals
were already done, little skinny trees that they had.

JJ:

So they’re hanging out by the mural and by the church outside in the summer?
Okay, and then when --

FN:

So that was a very different kind of atmosphere that I hadn’t experienced
because first of all, you know, those hydrants had been turned off twice, and we
weren’t [02:01:00] doing wrong, you know. But then there was so much comfort
and so much delight in that fountain of water spurting everywhere, and
everybody got wet. It was like a cleansing, refreshing -- and that’s all they could
do. I mean, we couldn’t go in a boat cruise and, you know, be waited on. I
mean, that was the heighth of entertainment recreation.

JJ:

So the Young Lords -- you didn’t see them marching all over the place formal or
anything like that. Would you say they were formal or informal, or...?

FN:

Well, we were very infor-- I’m saying we because I was with them, and there was
nothing really formal to be about. It was just everyday trying to survive, everyday
existence. And you could say, well, that was very dull, but if you didn’t make that
space or [02:02:00] you didn’t bring that inspiration, it was almost like a dead
silence. But it had to come out of you to put out.

71

�JJ:

Yet, people were cleaning the church, you were painting murals, and there was
programs in the church.

FN:

Oh, yeah, people were coming in to be medically assisted.

JJ:

How would you describe the clinic there?

FN:

Well, it was attending the community.

JJ:

I mean, did it look like a regular clinic?

FN:

Well, I mean, I’ve seen better places, but they were doing their best. I think the
guy that was working was Martha and Alberto.

JJ:

Alberto Chaviro, right. He was there at the clinic.

FN:

Very, very devoted people. I mean, just --

JJ:

He was the master of health, yeah.

FN:

-- good people from the heart, you know? They just weren’t doing it to show off
or --

JJ:

And actually, he wasn’t Puerto Rican.

FN:

Yeah, he was Mexicano.

JJ:

So Chicago had other [02:03:00] Latinos, right, not just Puerto Ricans, although
we were supporting independence for Puerto Rico. So Alberto Chaviro was
Mexicano.

FN:

(Spanish) [02:03:11] Martha.

JJ:

(Spanish) [02:03:12] Martha, and there were others at the clinic.

FN:

And that’s how I got close to them because I worked at the clinic and --

JJ:

You did work at the clinic?

FN:

Yeah, I volunteered.

72

�JJ:

Okay, but see --

FN:

I mean, remember, you and I didn’t continue, but I had the opportunity to invest
more time in what was going on, definitely. It probably would’ve been the same
whether I had been with you or not, but I was volunteering at the clinic. And
that’s how we discovered the paint when we started cleaning other areas of that
church; the basement or the kitchen or the closets. And, you know, that’s how
we discovered it.

JJ:

But it wasn’t disrespectful. I mean, it was because I was with someone else at
that time. I wasn’t being disrespectful to you or to what [02:04:00] we -- you
know what I’m saying?

FN:

No.

JJ:

You didn’t take it like that, but I was trying to be respectful at that time. No?

FN:

I don’t know. (laughs)

JJ:

Okay, you don’t --

FN:

I just know that --

JJ:

Okay, well, it didn’t work out then.

FN:

-- yeah, you and I did not become an item like they say. But, you know, I knew
that you and I were bigger than just us. I knew that.

JJ:

Okay, I appreciate that. Okay, so I’m just trying to describe the clinic because I
think you’re very good at describing things. And I’m trying to -- you know, if you
can describe not just the clinic, but I mean, how it functioned and -- what do you
recall?

73

�FN:

Well, I remember Alberto being the doctor. And of course, when a patient comes
in, you take their blood pressure; you know, the elementary stuff that determines,
you know, their condition further on. And the people felt, you know, [02:05:00]
pretty comfortable going in there. And of course, the people that attended them,
you know, like Alberto and Martha -- their hearts were in it, so I think that made a
big difference in the way the program was run with the very little that we had. We
had more love to give than anything else, but they did their best in those
conditions.

JJ:

What about some of the other volunteers?

FN:

To tell you the truth --

JJ:

What type of people were they? I mean, I --

FN:

They were in their -- probably not credentialed, but they did the best they could.
And I don’t remember too much, the other people, to tell you the truth, but the
whole spirit of that clinic was to serve and not [02:06:00] for profit, not for greed.
It was to serve at a human level.

JJ:

In fact, did anybody pay money to come to the clinic, or...?

FN:

I don’t think people had money to pay.

JJ:

So it was a free clinic?

FN:

Yeah, it was a free clinic.

JJ:

It was a free -- now, what about the breakfast for children program? That was
run out of the church too. Were you familiar with that?

FN:

I really didn’t get to see that.

JJ:

So you didn’t work on that one?

74

�FN:

No.

JJ:

Okay, but you did some there with the mural. They were talking about a daycare
center at that time. Did you --

FN:

No.

JJ:

No, you didn’t see that, did you?

FN:

No, I basically --

JJ:

That was later because when you --

FN:

-- was just at the clinic and stayed at the church.

JJ:

But you were there when it was just getting painted and started in the
neighborhood clinic. They were painting the inside too. That’s why we got the
paint. There were murals inside too, no?

FN:

I don’t remember seeing murals inside.

JJ:

Okay, that was Peter Clark. He put in --

FN:

Yes, because then when I did the side, then the front came on later.

JJ:

[02:07:00] Oh, that came later. Okay, that’s the “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi
Corazón” sign, but you did Che.

FN:

Yeah, I did Che --

JJ:

You definitely did Che.

FN:

-- and the other five murals.

JJ:

Yeah, you did five murals, okay, the other murals. Okay, you didn’t do the
People’s Church one. There was a People’s Church one too. That was Peter?

FN:

Correct.

75

�JJ:

Okay, all right. Okay, so you go back from there. And then where did you get
involved after that? You’re still with the Teatro, or no?

FN:

Oh, yeah, the Teatro went on for 12 years after we got out of the college, and
then we got into the community. And we were able to keep it for 12 years. And
then after that, I moved up north, and of course, later come back and reconnect.
But Delia and I never disconnected, Delia Ravelo, so that’s when the idea started
brewing -- [02:08:00] and I guess Laura can tell you this. You know, she took a
class, and she wrote this article about her participation or her days in Teatro, and
people got very interested. And then Suzanne Oboler told her, you know, that
that could be published. And then she showed up at a reunion, and then that’s
when we all started getting the idea, “Well, we should all do the same and put a
book together.” But of course, like everybody else has their dreams, Delia
Ravelo and I were going to be writers. When her last child left from her house to
go to college, that’s when we were going to start, but Delia got very sick with
stage four cancer, and she struggled. She was able to --

JJ:

She’s still alive, or no?

FN:

No. She was able to live another 18 months, and during that time, this idea
started building up. She was able to write her story, [02:09:00] and I was able to
help her because she was very debilitated. You know, but Laura actually started
moving us sooner than what we expected because of that. But Delia passed
away, and of course, you know, I was very angry because we were supposed to
be writers, and her last child was going out of the house. But I will never -- she’s

76

�always with me. And from that first time that I saw her -- she’s always with me,
well, in a way. (laughs)
JJ:

Okay, yeah. Well, thank you very much.

END OF VIDEO FILE

77

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                <text>Felícitas Nuñez lives in Bermuda Dunes, California. She and Delia Ravelo are co-founders of Teatro de Las Chicanas. The concept began when women of Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán (MEChA) brought their mothers to a university setting. There they organized a “Seminario de Chicanas” so that the mothers could understand what their daughters were going through. They wrote and performed “Chicana Goes to College.” And as a result of the audience’s positive response, Ms. Nuñez and Ms. Ravelo formed the Teatro de Las Chicanas. In the beginning years the core group consisted of just Ms. Ravelo and Ms. Nuñez, but many young women participated in the Teatro. Though working in San Diego, they were influenced by the leftist political ideals of the San Francisco Mime Troupe. They also united with the objectives of the Chicano Movement which included, among other things, social justice, bilingual education, and unionization. It also went further to address women’s equality. Several of the plays written and performed by the Teatro as well as the memories of their core members have been published in Teatro Chicana: A Collective Memoir and Selected Plays (2008). Most of the women who joined the Teatro came from farming towns throughout California and most of them were the first of their families to attend college. Around the early part of June 1969, Ms. Nuñez traveled to Chicago and met with the Young Lords who were transforming themselves from a local Puerto Rican gang into a human rights movement. One month earlier, the Young Lords had occupied the administration building of McCormick Theological Seminary (today on the campus of DePaul University) with 350 neighborhood residents and held it for an entire week. The Young Lords won all their demands, including $50,000 seed money for two free health clinics, $25,000 to open up the People’s Law Office which still operates today, and $650,000 to be invested by the seminary in low-income housing. One week earlier, the Young Lords had occupied a huge United Methodist Church on Dayton and Armitage, which they were in the process of transforming to become the Young Lords National Headquarters. The church would also house their Free Community Day Care Center, Free Dental and Health Clinic, and Free Breakfast for Children Program. All these programs were modeled after the Black Panther Party programs, of which the Young Lords had recently also connected via Fred Hampton’s Rainbow Coalition that Field Marshall Bobby Lee had also helped to broker. After the take-over of the church, the Young Lords quickly made amends. They did not want to disrupt any church service. When asked by the press if the Young Lords were going to allow the church to hold service, Mr. Jiménez quickly responded, “that it was not really a take over as the doors were now open to everyone, and that he and other Young Lords were planning on attending the services, being led by Rev. Bruce Johnson.” Some members of the congregation left but the Young Lords started meetings with the rest of the congregation, and together they designed the People’s Church symbol and produced a button that showed chains being broken. The Young Lords were cleaning up the church and adding needed paint when Ms. Nuñez arrived and volunteered to organize a group of muralists. Inside the church, Ron Clark and others were painting a mural of Puerto Rican history in the gymnasium. Outside, Ms. Nuñez’s group painted the Young Lords symbol of ”Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón” or “I have Puerto Rico in my Heart.” This lettering was in purple, with a green map of Puerto Rico, and a brown fist holding a rifle. (It had been designed by Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera and Mr. Jiménez. The first buttons were printed at the Green Duc Button Company at Lake Street and Halsted). Other murals that Ms. Nuñez and her volunteers painted on the church walls were images of Adelita, Emiliano Zapata, Lolita Lebrón, and Don Pedro Albizu Campos. Someone else, probably Ron Clark, painted Che Guevara by the side entrance to the office, with the lettering “Young Lords National Headquarters.” These wonderful murals could not be overlooked in Lincoln Park. Not only were they featured in the news, but Lincoln Park residents would drive by and stop in to see the various programs and activities, making People’s Church the center of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. By then most Puerto Ricans had been forced out of Lincoln Park and there was also plenty of room for others to join the Young Lords Movement. Hispanos representing all Latino nations joined the Young Lords, including members of other minorities, middle class individuals, workers, the very poor, and students. The Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition was formed and Mr. Jiménez was voted president. The Northside Cooperative Ministry, of which Rev. Bruce Johnson was a prominent member, was also established during this period, and it supported the Poor People’s Coalition and the Young Lords. Just sixty days before Mark Clark and Fred Hampton were shot to death, assassinated in a predawn raid led by State’s attorney Edward Hanrahan, Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia were also discovered in their beds stabbed multiple times, in a cold case that remains unsolved. The Eulogy was given at the church with Young Lords fully participating, providing security and traffic control. There was also a spontaneous march through the Lincoln Park Community where Rev. Bruce Johnson worked with the poor. Ms. Nuñez left Chicago unaware of the impact she had made in the Puerto Rican community and in Lincoln Park. The Teatro Chicana did participate in the impromptu Lincoln Park Camp in Michigan in the 2000 and the Young Lords 40th Anniversary celebration in Chicago in 2008.</text>
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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Felipe Luciano
Interviewer: Jose Jimenez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/15/2013
Runtime: 01:13:52

Biography and Description
Oral history of Felipe Luciano, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 15, 2013 about the
Young Lords in Lincoln Park.
"The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the
history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later,
the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the
premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and

�political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban
renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos,
working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same
families and activists also risk losing their history.

�Transcript

FELIPE LUCIANO: Okay. My name is Felipe Luciano. I was born in the old
Metropolitan Hospital on Welfare Island. It’s now called Roosevelt Island. I was
born on November 24th, 1947, two years after the big war. I was born in East
Harlem. That’s where we came to, my mother and father, after I was born. And
we were a barrio family.
JOSE JIMENEZ:
FL:

Where did you come from?

My family comes from Puerto Rico. My mother was born here, so she’s part of
that generation we call the pioneros. They were the first Puerto Ricans here,
born here.

JJ:

What’s her name?

FL:

Her name is Aurora Luciano, my mother’s name. She’s passed two years ago.

JJ:

Your mom?

FL:

It still hurts to even think about it. My father was born in Puerta de Tierra, Puerto
Rico, which is in San Juan. His father’s from Camuy, Puerto Rico. My maternal
grandmother comes from [00:01:00] Cataño, Puerto Rico, which is primarily a
Black area. And I’ll start with my grandmother. My grandmother, fleeing Puerto
Rico’s poverty and the lack of real jobs for single women, left three of her kids.
She had three kids from two gentlemen in Puerto Rico. One was Haitian. She
had two with the Haitian, and in those days, by the way, Caribbean people
traveled from island to island, and I owe a great deal of gratitude, we all do, to
the Haitians because it was the Haitians who made revolution a reality. After

1

�they had their revolution with Toussaint Louverture and Dessalines, they traveled
to the other islands, like Puerto Rico, advocating that slaves overthrow their
Spanish slave masters. And there were laws [00:02:00] that stated emphatically
that they should be killed onsite. But it was Haitians who literally fomented
revolution and rebellion in Puerto Rico against the slave masters. My
grandmother, having already separated from two of the gentlemen that she had
three kids with, decided that her best bet was to come to New York, so she gets
on a steamer. In those days, they had re-converted cargo freighters. One of
them was called a Marine Tiger. In fact, it was that name, the Marine Tiger, that
became a pejorative among Puerto Ricans here in New York because if we
called you a marine tiger, it means you came on a ship. And many of them were
cane cutters. Some of them were urban people, but most of us come from
agricultural families, country folk. Interestingly enough, my father’s mother -- so
I’ve dealt with my mother’s mother, Margo, Black, [00:03:00] African, always
proud of her African past, had horrible memories of the Spaniards. Her mother,
Rosa, went to Spain with a family, and she served as their nanny, and the
experiences that she related to my grandmother, who then related it to my
mother, who then related it to me, were traumatizing. They were horrible, the
way they treated her, the disrespect, the humiliation she had to go through.
When she came back, she said, “You can’t trust any of these Spaniards, any of
them.”
JJ:

What do you mean? How did they treat her?

2

�FL:

They beat her. They mistreated her. They spoke to her in ways that were
inhumane and that were less than civil. By the time she got back to Puerto Rico,
she never did it again. She said she would never work for them again. My
grandmother tells me that during the time of the invasion, before the invasion, the
Spanish troops would come through towns and just rape women whenever they
wanted to. [00:04:00] And she said, “You can’t trust a Catalano,” because many
of the soldiers from Spain were from Catalan, at least where she was. And she
never, ever saw --

JJ:

And she was in Cataño?

FL:

She was in Cataño. And of course, she traveled around also, but she told me
that she could never trust a Spaniard again, so my family was versed and
immersed in Blackness and Négritude, sometimes negatively. Sometimes they
were Black through negativity. That is, “We’re Black, and therefore we’re not this,
and we’re not that.” My grandmother with me though, that is, my mother’s
mother, having seen what negativity could do the mind of a young man, she
always promoted Blackness in me. (Spanish) [00:04:52 - 00:04:58] around her
head. She used a bandana [00:05:00] around her head. She used to cook with
wood. She would actually put her hand in the fire and take the wood out. She
was an incredible woman, and she used to -- the earliest memories I have, the
first 10 years of my life, is of her tracing the lines of my nose, the lines of my
eyebrows, my lips, and saying, “What a beautiful child you are.” I mean, she
would marvel. She would coo at me, so I remember that throughout 10 years, I
would lie on her lap, and she would coo. And she used to call me (Spanish)

3

�[00:05:25]. And she used to sing, (sings in Spanish) [00:05:29 - 00:05:38]. And
then she would say, “Ay, que frio. Ay, que frio.” And it was a contradiction
because she was saying it was hot, but he would say that it was cold so that he
could eat it. So, I’d go put all of these Africanisms, (sings in Spanish) [00:05:53 00:06:00]. You would say that to the babies. So, I grew up with this tremendous,
tremendous pride in being Black, but I never grew up feeling that Black was ugly
or that it was inferior. I grew up, long before James Brown said it, that Black was
the most beautiful thing there was. And so, my grandmother would take my
nappy hair, and she would put little mounds. She would make little [monitos?],
we call it. And I grew up with a tremendous sense of beauty. As I grew older, I
realized that many of my African American friends and even some Puerto Ricans
had not been brought up in that meilleur. And so, I had many fist fights because
they would say, “You know, well, we’re ugly. We’re ashy. We’re this. We’re that.”
And I said, “No, man, I’m pretty.” And they would ask me, “Well, who told you
pretty?” I said, “My grandmother did. She says I’m a pretty negro.” And they
would say, “Well, your grandmother’s lying,” and [00:07:00] to tell me my
grandmother was lying was an instant ass-whooping, so I definitely got into some
fights over that when I was a kid. So, I never had a problem with my nose, my
lips, my hair, my ashiness, never had a problem with that. El Barrio at that time -oh.
JJ:

You’re talking about --

FL:

It was a Black Puerto Rican community. Now I’m going back to my father’s
family. Now, my father’s family was an interesting mix. My father’s family were

4

�all revolutionaries. My grandmother, Rosa, another Rosa, was one of the first
followers of Albizu Campos. She escaped the masacre de Ponce in 1937. She
was one of the few who got away. From what my father tells me, she -JJ:

What was her name?

FL:

Her name was Rosa.

JJ:

Rosa.

FL:

Rosa Luciano. Rosa, Rosa, what was her last name? Alvarez is my family name
on that side. [00:08:00] And when my father described it to me, he didn’t see any
-- she died when he was 13. She had to sell her body from time to time to make
money because that’s the way it was in Puerto Rico in her barrio of her class.
She couldn’t make money, so she did that. My father was confronted with that
several years later by some friends, some people who knew his mother, and he
said he almost knocked the guy out, but in fact, it was true. My family’s always
been street on that side of it. Her brother, Carmelo, ended up in the same
nationalist party with Albizu and spent 10 years in Atlanta Penitentiary as a body
guard for Albizu Campos. He stayed with him. His name is Carmelo Alvarez. I
looked it up, and he’s there. My father from Vega Baja came to San Juan, stayed
with his father, and it was traumatic for him because his father was not used to
taking care of a kid. He went through a rough time, never quite learned
[00:09:00] what the meaning of family was. Told me that he -- and I realized this
as I got older, that he never really experienced what having a family was,
certainly having a woman around, and that hurt him later on. So, now you have
my paternal grandfather from Camuy, my maternal grandfather from Arecibo, and

5

�then they all come here. My grandmother comes on a boat and lands in
Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, because in those days, the first Puerto Rican
community was Williamsburg, Brooklyn. They were citizens already in 1917, so
those who came, they came on these huge freighters, and they would drop some
off in Ellis Island, and the rest would come to Williamsburg because that’s the
way you did it. They were already citizens by 1917, the Jones Act. My
grandmother came with a little piece of paper, and she looked for her friend or
[00:10:00]a friend or a contact, found one, ended up on Front Street in Brooklyn.
The building still stands to this day on Front Street. Before my mother died, we
took her there, and she -JJ:

Is this Williamsburg? No?

FL:

Williamsburg, yeah. And she, my mother, was so happy to see that building.
She said, “That’s where I grew up. That’s where I was raised.” Her father, my
grandfather, my maternal grandfather, was named Phillip, and he worked for the
mob. And what he did is he did bathtub gin, and they say, this is just a legend,
he was the best at it. I think historically, if we look at it culturally, Sicilians were
the closest to Puerto Ricans because the language is very much the same. They
look like us. They were dark, have curly hair, the works. And since they were in
charge of the streets, the only way you could make money if you didn’t speak
English and you didn’t have a job was to do the street thing, and so it would be
like selling drugs [00:11:00] today, because it was illegal. Tell you a little story.
He’s a very standup guy, from what I hear. His character was intact, very rigid,
but he had integrity. I was doing a story one time as a reporter, and I had to do a

6

�story on a so-called mob infiltration of the South Street Seaport, which is where
they handle the fish and distribute the fish in the city. I couldn’t get headways.
The former Mayor Giuliani was asking them to move to the Bronx. They wanted
them to relocate, and he was going to investigate them. There were loads of
records in a huge warehouse. Those records suddenly spontaneously caught
fire, and of course nobody could be indicted because all the records were gone.
I’m trying to do a story on this fire, and I couldn’t get headway. And I’m up at six
in the morning because I had to do three live shots for Good Day New York. And
the six-o’clock [00:12:00] didn’t go so well. The seven-o’clock didn’t go so well. I
had one more, the eight-o’clock. Our show ended at nine. And I get a nudge in
the back from a young Italian kid with a grappling hook the longshoremen use,
and he goes like this. And I figure, uh-oh, we’re in for some trouble.” And he
says, “Is your name Felipo?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “My grandfather’s watching
you on live TV. He can’t believe that you’re the grandson of Phillip Luciano.
You’re the grandson, right?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “He told me to tell you your
grandfather was a standup guy.” And he turns around to the guys, and he says,
“Whatever he needs, you give him whatever, within reason.” (laughs) So, I got a
great story about working-class Italian men and their trials and tribulations. It
was a great story. But that’s how my grandfather was viewed by the boys of The
Family, as we say in East Harlem. [00:13:00] Well, needless to say, we stayed
with Italians mostly. We still have very good relationships with Italian Americans,
with Sicilians in particular. And as they moved, we moved. So, Williamsburg got
a little tough. We couldn’t afford the rent, according to my mother, so they

7

�moved. My father and my grandfather died, and they were poor. They were
broke, so they went where the rents were cheap, and in East Harlem at that time,
you could live for three months free because landlords were offering it because
they wanted people -- the buildings -- it hadn’t been populated yet by Puerto
Ricans. The Italians were slowly leaving. So, since Sicilians were going there
and the Irish and the Jewish Americans and some of the Scandinavians, believe
it or not, East Harlem used to be a very heavy Scandinavian neighborhood, left,
Irish too. My grandmother decided to go to one of these apartments in there.
She went, and we followed the Italians there. The earliest memories I have of
East Harlem [00:14:00] are both wonderful and horrific, wonderful in that my
grandmother, I had my mother, my grandmother. I remember my father, my
aunts, and uncles who were just incredible. Each one of them had a personality.
Each one of them was a character. So, it was wonderful, in that I felt totally,
totally loved. I would get up in the morning, and I would smell the coffee grinds.
I would smell the way made coffee in El Barrio. I would hear the music. We
played trio music in those days. The Mexican trios were, and still are, considered
sacred music to Puerto Ricans, Trio Los Panchos, Trio Los Astros, Ases, [con?]
Marco Antonio Muñiz Muñiz, Vegabajeño, Trio Borinquen, all of those old things.
And even then, I loved it. Later on, I didn’t want to get close to it because I
thought it was hinky music. Now I have all, the entire collection of Trio Los
Panchos. And I remember the familiarity, the family [00:15:00] atmosphere was
just so much fun being in East Harlem. You always had a loving shoulder, a
loving embrace. The men watched out for their kids. Families were together.

8

�There was a work ethic that was beyond description. I remember getting up
every morning. When I got up early to go to school, men were going to work.
They were going to the factories. Women were going to the factories, in the ’30s,
between Sixth and Eighth Avenue, the textile factories. So, I never saw laziness.
I never saw what they call poverty or victim behavior. Men stood up for their
families. There were house parties. The music was fabulous. I grew up in the
’50s, so I remember Machito and his Afro-Cubans, who lived on 111th Street, and
in fact, spans three generations. Before he died, he used to say, “I knew your
grandmother; I knew your father, and now I know you.” And he knew my kids.
It’s four generations of people that he knew. I grew up with Tito [00:16:00]
Puente. I grew up with Tito Rodriguez.
JJ:

They were in your neighborhood?

FL:

No, no, Tito was from 110th Street, but he had already left, but Machito was still
there. Tito Rodriguez was in Puerto Rico at the time. I loved it. So, A, I grew up
with a tremendous sense of Négritude in being an Afro-Boricua. B, I grew up
with a really refined ear because while my mother loved Latin music, my father
loved jazz, so Billy Eckstine, Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, Gerald Wilson, Stan
Kenton, Basie, Ellington were part of my -- Jimmy Smith, the big baritone horns,
Gigi Gryce and Sonny Stitt, these guys were part of my background. Sonny
Rollins and the others come later. Coltrane comes later. But that was it, Dizzy
Gillespie, Chano Pozo. [00:17:00] In the ’50s, we also had, in the early ’60s, we
had Johnny Pacheco with the pachanga. It was just -- Kako, Cortijo y su Combo.
It was a tremendous time to be alive in El Barrio. And I don’t remember anything

9

�but love in that matrix. The one horrifying moment for me, traumatizing, is my
father left. And I remember exactly when it happened. My mother had caught
him with someone else. In those days, men strayed. It was part of the culture,
almost institutionalized. You had your wife, and then you had your thing on the
side. The difference was, is that my father pushed past the envelope. He had
actually come into the community, and he was with her in the community, and
people of course came and told my mother. And I remember my mother holding
onto my arm and screaming at this woman -- she was a Jamaican woman -screaming at her, calling her -- I couldn’t believe it. My mother was Pentecostal
and was holy, and the words that came out of my mother’s mouth. Well, after
that, I knew it was over, and [00:18:00] I remember him coming in on an
afternoon. It was an afternoon, a Saturday afternoon, and she had my had, and
she said, “You’re not gonna come up these stairs. I don’t want you back in this
house.” And I knew immediately it was over. I just knew. I knew we were in for a
rough time. We were already going through rough times, but I didn’t really notice
it because I had a mom and a dad. And I remember when, after they had made
love, of course she never wanted this to happen, but I would run into the room
because the air was full of love. And I don't know why people deny children the
ability to be with them in intimate moments. I loved it. I don’t mean to be with
them when they’re doing their thing, but I mean, it was just a lovely feeling. It
was like star particles in the air, and I would jump in between my mother and my
father, and I would just be in between them. And I couldn’t -- there was nothing -it was heaven, between my mom’s breasts and my father’s cross. He used to

10

�have a big cross. He was a boxer, so he’s pretty well defined, regular-looking
guy. My father [00:19:00] always had this sense that I could do things. He never
felt that I couldn’t, and I remember even at two, he would bring me a to
Highbridge Pool, not too far from where we’re recording this, and he had taught
me how to swim a little bit, and so I had to go from the middle of the pool, which
is about 25 yards, to the end. And the first time, I choked. The second time, I
choked. And then I told him, “Leave me alone, daddy. Leave me alone. Let me
do it.” And I don't know how I got to the end, but I did, and he and I both
congratulated each other, “Yeah, we did it!” And I didn’t need him to hold me
under my stomach. My mother was more protective. I realized later on, my
mother was never meant to be alone. She loved him dearly and continued to
love him. She never went out with another man. I don’t understand this, but this
is a breed of Puerto Rican women that was for one man only, and that was it.
From what I hear and what she told me, [00:20:00] she really adored him, and he
broke her heart. And she said that on that day, I was on the second-floor landing
of the Johnson projects when she told him to leave. She said, “I was waiting for
him to go up the stairs and push me out of the way and say, ‘This is my house.
These are my kids. You are my woman.’” And she was sad that he didn’t. He
was a strong guy. He wouldn’t take too much guff from anybody, but he wasn’t
strong enough to do that.
JJ:

Can we get his name?

FL:

Jose Luciano. He’s now passed. It was traumatizing for me because I really
needed my dad. It was a difficult time. And I knew when my mother was crying,

11

�tears were coming down her eyes, she, “I don’t want you to come up here.” And
all he needed to do was, “Hey, it’s my house.” She said she wished that he could
do that. She told me later that the reason she admired and respected me -- can
you imagine a mother telling you this -- is because I would do stuff like that. I
would say, [00:21:00] “I don’t care, mom. You could say what you wanna say.
This is what I’m gonna do.” And I’d gently move her out of the way and do what I
had to do. She said that’s what she admired most in me, my honesty, and I
would never lie to her, whether I stabbed somebody. Whether I was high on
drugs, whether I was in a gang fight, whether I had a woman in my room, two
women in my room, whatever it was, I would tell her, “Mommy, this is what I’m
doing, and this is what I’m happening.” So, my mother and I had a very tight
relationship. She was 21 when she had me, so we grew up together basically.
The beginning of the end was when he left, and I remember it because my
mother lost a lot of confidence. We had to go on welfare. It was difficult. And I
began to see what institutionalization can do and how an institution like welfare
can destroy a spirit. We always had to struggle for clothes. We always had to
struggle for food. I don't remember struggling before my father left. I was three
when my father left, [00:22:00] but I remember before that, always eating. After
that, eating was optional. Sometimes you had food, and sometimes you didn’t,
and it was difficult for my mother. My mother was Pentecostal, so that helped her
ease the pain. Evangelistic fervor helped her out, but it was a very repressive
Pentecostalism. Women were not supposed to wear earrings, not supposed to
wear pants. You couldn’t sit alongside men, very difficult situation for me. I don’t

12

�remember not being interested in sex. I don’t know this period that guys, little
guys are supposed to have where they’re not interested. I was always interested
in women, always. They were fascinating to me. And since I was always
nurtured and loved by them, I became a bit spoiled. My grandmother thought I
could do anything, and that, in the end, helped me tremendously, the love that
she gave me. And my mother, even though I got whoopings, and I mean
[00:23:00] I don't know how other cultures -- I know how other cultures handle
punishment. Black folks, Southern in particular, will tell the child, “Go out and
take a twig off the tree,” and hit you with the twig. Puerto Ricans are Spanish
inquisitors. Theirs is torture. Theirs is you kneel down on a grate, on, you know,
the grater you use for the cheese or on rice, and they beat you while you hold the
Bible in your hands. It’s some sick stuff. My mother would make me smell the
belt. She would say (Spanish) [00:23:32]. She would make me -- (Spanish)
[00:23:35]. But before she would do that, she would say, “Take a bath,” because
it hurts more on a wet body. I used to tell her, “Mommy, if there were child abuse
laws, you’d be under the jail.” So, I got beaten a lot because I always rebelled. I
was the oldest child. My mother had two more with my -- my brother and my
sister, Margie and Paul, Paul and Margie. And I remember seeing the gangs,
and that was where [00:24:00] -- I didn’t have a family. Remember, the family’s
gone. I remember admiring these guys with club sweaters, with pompadours,
mambo boots, tight pants, snap clothes, collars with thin, skinny ties, and how
they protected us and how they seemed to be afraid of nobody. I remember
admiring them even then.

13

�JJ:

How old were you then?

FL:

Seven, eight. By the time I was nine or 10, I already knew what time it was. We
played with the pump. We knew when to run when the cops came. It was
already us and them. We already knew that we were poor. We already knew
that cops were not our friends.

JJ:

This is in Harlem?

FL:

This is in East Harlem, in El Barrio. My mother made a conscious decision never
to deny love, meaning that if -- in those days, Puerto Ricans [00:25:00] were
very, very anti-Black. They moved away from anything that would suggest that
they were Black or that they acted like Blacks, like American Blacks. My mother
did just the opposite. My mother developed some very good friends in the
Johnson project, Lorraine Mims, Marion, and she never allowed us to ever think
that we were something other than we were. We were Puerto Ricans, and we
were Black, not “but” we were Black, “and” we were Black. That was a wonderful
thing. Now, the Puerto Rican community at that time would kinda look at her a
little differently because she could easily move from talking with her Black friends
from Charleston, South Carolina, and then going to speaking to some people
from Ponce. She did it effortlessly. I do it to this day. I don’t even know when
I’m moving from Spanish to English, from Black English to -- it is effortless for
me. It’s the way I was raised. And by the way, I had many Black friends who
were raised the same way. My babysitters [00:26:00] after my grandmother
moved to California, my babysitters were all Southern Black women who taught
me a lot about God, the God of the evangelical Black Southern tradition, and who

14

�gave me a sense of beauty and awe about God. Long story short, my
grandmother decides one day -- I’m in the third grade now. My grandmother
decides she wants to go to California. She’s tired of the affairs and all of the
madness that her sons and daughters are putting her through. She goes to
California with her youngest son Phillip. And she says she wants to take me with
her. Now, there is a little-known law among Puerto Ricans that the grandmother
has the right to take one child, even if you have a mother and father, but
particularly if you have no man in your life, the grandmother has the right to take
one. Now, in my grandmother’s case, I had an older cousin, but she liked me a
lot because she was closer to my mother, [00:27:00] and she adopted me in a
sense. So, she said, “And I’m taking Phillip with me,” and so me, my brother, my
sister went, ended up in Wilmington, California, and I loved it. Even then, I had
wanderlust. Even then, we traveled across the country for five days in a big,
beautiful Cadillac, and I was in love. I saw Arizona. I saw deserts. I saw the
wheat fields of Kansas. I mean, we went through the entire length of the United
States. And we ended up in Wilmington, California, which I love. And for the first
time, I was oil wells and palominos, Mexicans and Japanese, sun all the time. It
was just a lovely time. I was in the fourth grade. We couldn’t make it, and we
had to come back to New York. I was heartbroken. I tried to run away. I wanted
to stay with my grandmother, and I definitely wanted to stay in California. Little
did I know that my mother felt completely lost without me, she told me later. And
I was the oldest boy, a little bright, [00:28:00] very, very precocious, so I had to go
back with her. I was very annoyed that my mother wouldn’t let me go. I kept on

15

�saying, “Mommy, you don’t need me.” She said, “No, you don’t need me, but I
need you.” And that was a strange set of circumstances. We come back to New
York, and we ended up in the Foster projects with my aunt, which is Black and
Puerto Rican area. And I started to learn how to fight. I never had to. Now,
because I was in an area that was predominantly African American, it was a very
different feel, though I was totally at home. We used to fight with our pinkies out
like this, and it was guys like Cece and Big Ben and Junebug and Irving and all
these cats who taught me to fight with my hands, chin in and my hands up. So, I
learned how to fight, and boy -JJ:

So, there was no conflict? So, it was just like playing fight?

FL:

No, yeah, it was playing, and we’d call ‘em champ battles, [00:29:00] but they
were preludes to real fights. And the first real fight I had was in the sixth grade, I
think. I had some minor scuffles, but the first one was John, over a girl, and he
knocked me down, and I fell out. I acted like I was knocked out. Actually, I was
too tired to continue fighting. And the guys from my building were watching me,
and they say, “You’re never, ever gonna lose like this again.” So, they, for a year
-- John Whitaker, his name was, by the way, a very smart brother, whose house I
used to go to all the time. For a year, they would hit me suddenly, smack, so that
I could always learn to block and block. It was fifth grade. By the time the sixth
grade came, I challenged him to a fight outside and whipped him pretty bad,
[00:30:00] due to the friends who taught me how to fight, how to block, and how
simply not to be afraid. Puerto Ricans are traditionally very elegant, very noble
people. They never wanted to confront. Black folk would confront, so I learned

16

�from them how to jump in your face and say, “Yeah, well, let me tell you
something,” and not to listen to the words and the passion or the decibels of the
scream. It meant nothing. Knock this boy out, and that was it. Harlem in those
days, remember, I was much more at home. I remember the Muslims coming to
116th Street, the FOI, the Pompadours. (sneezes) Excuse me. It was a
wonderful time to be alive. So, I learned another part of the side. Remember, I
have the Puerto Rican side. Now I’m deeply immersed in African American. I
remember Sweet Daddy Grace, I remember, who was a mystic or an itinerant
preacher. And we had a Dominican gentleman, Black Dominican gentleman in
the church that I grew up in, which is the first [00:31:00] Black Puerto Rican
church, called Templo [Betel?], that new Billie Holiday, so he was swing. I mean,
so I ended up with all of these influences, everything, Sam Cooke, Little Willie
John, Johnny Ace, Tito Puente, Johnny Pacheco, Machito, I mean, all of it, and
I’m just a sponge. Cracktop, we used to play tops, and skelly and ringalario and
Johnny on a pony and all that stuff. Well, that had to end, so my mother decided
that she had apply -- we were living with my aunt, and we decided to go to
Brownsville. So, we go to Brownsville, and that’s when the gang situation came
in. Now, I’m leaving Harlem and East Harlem, familial, close, everybody’s family,
knew one another, and I go to Brooklyn. Brooklyn was warrior city.
JJ:

Why was it warrior city?

FL:

Brownsville, Brownsville. Because everything in Brooklyn was based on your
pecking order, everything, whether you got lunch, whether your sister was going

17

�to be protected, [00:32:00] whether your family. Everything was based on
whether you could fight and who you could hurt, and in Brownsville -JJ:

Was it always like that?

FL:

Brownsville has always been like that. I don't know what -- Brownsville is where
Murder, Incorporated started, so it’s been like that since Jews and Italians were
there. There is something about Brownsville that nurtures crime, that nurtures
warrior, that nurtures fighting. I tell people all the time, if you think that Harlem is
rough, now you think Black folks from Harlem, try Brownsville. Brownsville is
serious. They like that. They fight in the wintertime. I couldn’t stand fighting in
the wintertime. My hands were too cold. But their thing was, “Throw your hands
up, baby. We’re going at it, and we’ll shoot you to the cross.” So, Brownsville
gave me a whole ‘nother patina as a warrior. I hated it. I was inferior a lot of the
times, but I had a brother and a sister, and I had to protect them. So, I joined a
group called the Frenchmen, and the reason I joined the group is my cousin
came to me from Canarsie with a beautiful coat, and we were walking to his
house, [00:33:00] and a guy put a knife to his neck. And I saw it almost
puncturing his skin, and I ran to get my cousin. I say, “Hey, man, you’re gonna
hurt him.” And the other, his friend, put a knife to my throat. I was not scared.
For some reason, I was not scared. In my mind, I said, “I hope he kills me,
because if he doesn’t, I will hunt this brother down.” I never saw them again, so
they must’ve been from another community. They took his coat. After that, I
said, “I’ll never let this happen again,” and I joined a gang called the Frenchmen,
and I never looked back. I became a gangbanger, and I mean to the best to the

18

�best of my ability, we robbed pigeons. We beat up people, and I just -- all of the
anger, all of the frustration in me was translated in gang activity. My mother knew
something was wrong but not quite sure. We would walk. People would tell her,
“Your son is in that gang, and I’ve seen him beating up people and him fighting all
the time.” I said, “Mommy, that’s not true.” I lied. I never lied to my mother. One
day, she said, “Something [00:34:00] is wrong here because every time we walk
up to Livonia, we walk up to Blake or Sutter, you kinda hug me close,” because
we’re walking into enemy territory. In those days, they didn’t hit your mother, so
they left me alone. I said, “Ma, yeah, I’m in a gang. I’m in a gang. I have to do it
to protect myself,” and so she knew that something was wrong. Simultaneously,
I’m also very bright, didn’t know how bright I was. I had a teacher named Ethel
Shapiro who literally saved my life. She saw that I was in a gang, saw that I was
antisocial, saw that I was constantly moving into destructive behavior, and started
nurturing me, and I mean nurturing me. Ethel Shapiro taught me the beauty of
the English language. She also taught me Yiddish, taught me Jewish history. I
became a Judaism freak. I mean, I learned everything about Judaism there was.
She taught me the Shema prayer, “Here, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One.
Shema yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad.” I’ll never forget it. She taught me
Yiddish. She taught me how to eat sable. [00:35:00] She taught me how to eat
whitefish. She taught me. I mean, she literally raised me as if I were her son.
She would take me in the back and go through Torah with me, and the mitzvahs,
and I learned words like meshuggeneh. She would say, “He’s meshuggeneh.”
And I’d say, “What does that mean?” “It means he’s crazy.” I grew up, I had the

19

�best rabbinical education in the world. I ended up becoming very good friends
with the Orthodox on Eastern Parkway, the Lubavitch, and I still have great
friends there after all these years. I was a [jitterbug?], but I would go up there to
see them. Can you imagine that sort of juxtaposition? Miss Shapiro gave me a
sense of the possible, and so I learned that I had a brain, and I learned I could
write, and she loved me into that. My mother was starting to get very scared. In
fact, Miss Shapiro used to accompany me home all the time. My mother knew
something was wrong. Miss Shapiro would hold my hand. I said, “Ethel don’t
make me hold your hand. These are all Black men watching me.” She said, “So,
you’re afraid of a white lady [00:36:00] holding your hand?” And sure enough,
she’d walk me through the things after we did afterschool work. And my mother,
fearing for my life, took me to California again. This time, we went to LA, and we
lived in East LA, which was all Mexican at that time and all gang ridden. I loved
it. I loved it because I was a novelty. Here was a Black guy who spoke Spanish
and felt totally at home with Mexicans, totally. I had one fight. Of course, you
have to have one fight to find who you are in school, went to Hollenbeck Junior
High School, and became vice president of the second-largest school in LA in
three months. Now, it’s difficult to explain this, but LA is so huge, that if you’re
the second largest, it’s like a second city. It’s like a city.
JJ:

What was the name?

FL:

Hollenbeck Junior High. Ken Naganishi was president. The only reason he
became president, I really got more votes than him, is because I hadn’t taken a
civics course, or else I would’ve become president of the school. So, [00:37:00]

20

�here I am again in paradise. My antisocial behavior, my gang activity, I just
dropped it like a bad habit, and I was proud. The gangs in the neighborhood in
Aliso Village came to me to join, and I said, “I can’t join.” I said, “I’m not going to
join, and I’ll tell you what we’re gonna do. If you guys are ever in real trouble,
you can call on me, but for now I can’t because I just came from gangs. It would
break my mother’s heart. Just do me a favor. Protect my family. You protect my
family and leave my family alone, and I will always be there in extreme
situations.” They said okay. I was doing well, shotput, junior shotput. I was
running the full 40. They were already thinking of UCLA for me, even in junior
high school. They said, “This kid is smart. He’s good.” I was going to go to
Roosevelt High, but they wanted me to go to another school because Roosevelt
was so gang ridden, blah, blah, blah. Went out with a Japanese girl, Ruth. I was
in love. I just was happy. My mother couldn’t make it. Here was the turning
point. I had told the guys that they had to protect my family. My cousin, who had
been in a gang in Brooklyn, was sent to California. He was still into the
gangbanging thing. And he went out with a girl who he was told not to go out
with. Now, the way gangs work is there’s certain laws that you have to follow,
and if a guy tells you, “Don’t mess with my girl,” you don’t mess with his girl. But
he did because he thought he was a tough guy. He’s from New York, and he had
an arrogant attitude, and they came up to me, Sparky, I’ll never forget, and said,
“Your cousin is going out with my girl, man. I don’t like it, man. Please tell him to
stop.” I said, “I’ll tell him, but don’t hurt him.” He said, “Okay, but you gotta tell
him.” So, I go up to Jose, and I told him, “You can’t fool around with this girl. I

21

�mean, it’s not good for us. I mean, we’re under the aegis of this gang, and you’re
--” “Oh, man, these punks ain’t gonna do it. They’re just California hicks.” Well,
[00:39:00] they caught him one day, and they put a hatchet through the window.
They almost killed him, and they came running to me. “Your cousin, they’re
gonna kill your cousin.” I ran to the backyard. We had backyards in California,
two-story houses for projects, if you can believe it. You had your own little house.
And I said, “Sparky, you said you were not gonna hurt my cousin.” He said, “I
told him, and I told you to tell him.” I said, “But that’s my cousin.” He said, “You
told me to protect your brother and sister. That’s your cousin.” I said, “It’s still my
family, man. That’s how Puerto Ricans roll. This is all family.” He said, “I don’t
care. I’m not Puerto Rican.” And I hit him, bang. The whole group jumped on
me. I just got one shot, but I caught him flush, and we were rolling. I put my
arms under his armpits, and they were hitting me into him because I put my neck
under his chest. And it was real bad. Now, they were trying to hit me with the
hatchet, the same hatchet they tried to kill my cousin with. Everybody ran out.
My mother ran out. My aunt ran out. Both of them fainted, speaking tongues, all
that stuff. My little old grandmother [00:40:00] came out, four foot, I don't know, it
was five-foot-one? I don’t know how she separated us. She was talking to
Sparky in Spanish, and Sparky was saying, “Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.” I’ll
always remember his respect for her, “Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.” But he started
him, and she, (Spanish) [00:40:16]. And she was talking to us like that. He said,
“Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.” And when she separated a little more, I hit him
again, bing, and then she turn around and smacked me. And he liked that

22

�because she was being fair. Then she invited us all in for Kool-Aid, and that was
the end of that gang fight. We resolved it. But my grandma said, “I can’t have
you guys here,” and she sent us back to New York, sent my mother too. I knew
that it was time lights out for me, and I told my mother. I said, “Ma, if we go back
to New York, I’m not gonna make it. I’m gonna be back in the gang, and I know
it. I can feel it in my bones.” But we came back to New York, and within two
years -- I was 14 -- by 16, I was in for murder. Somebody had [00:41:00] messed
with my brother, a gang in Bushwick. We had moved to Bushwick, a hovel of a
one-bedroom, rats. Oh, it was horrible. Bushwick was, oof. We lived on Granite
Street. I met some good friends there, friends I still have, but it was a very
difficult situation for me.
JJ:

You’re wanted for murder. Where did you go to?

FL:

We hurt this guy, and one of my friends stabbed him. I was the ringleader, so we
all went up. I went to Elmira, and then I went to Coxsackie, which is, again,
gladiator school, and did two years there, came out, miraculously. And when I
came out, I was 18. Some teacher took some [HARYOU act?], sort of
[antibody?] program, took a test at me, looked at my marks, and said, “This kid is
smart,” and sent me to Queens College. There was a program for ex-cons there,
because no other college would take me. CCNY rejected me. Brooklyn rejected
me. But Queens College, way out in the sticks, I thought, Kissena Boulevard in
Flushing, NY. I went there, [00:42:00] and I became one of the five cons who
was in the program. All of us did well, by the way. And I didn’t know this, but I
had a propensity for scholarship. I did very well. The first semester, I got an A-

23

�plus in philosophy, in fact, an elective course called Aesthetics run by a guy
named John McDermott. Math was hard. I had to take physics for physics
majors. I got a D-plus in that, and I was so happy I just got a D-plus. At least I
passed. I did well. But I met a guy named Saul Resnick, who was a socialist,
and he began to teach me about revolution. And after I read about the French
Revolution, after I read about -- what was it -- The Federalist Papers, after I read
about all of the major pamphleteers at the time, Franklin, Adams, Madison, the
arguments, Rousseau, we were reading Marcuse. We were reading, I mean, just
Mumford. I was involved in new thought. I was also reading Stokely Carmichael
and Charles Hamilton, Black Power. I started teaching courses. Even though I
was still in school, I was teaching Black power courses. So, as soon as I come
out, I’m in Queens College, I join a group of poets called The Last Poets, and I
become the first Puerto Rican member of that group, and the last, and we start
going across the country doing -- we were the spawners. We’re the godfathers
of the hip-hop movement. I meet Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, Field Marshall
Donald Cox, Bobby Seale, James Forman. Rap Brown became my main
(inaudible), best man at my first wedding, with Iris Morales. And [00:44:00] I was
in. Now, eventually, the poetry led me into revolutionary activity. Puerto Ricans
would come to The East Wing, which is the loft we had on 125th Street, and
would keep on telling me, “Yes, you’re Black, but you’re Puerto Rican, and we
need you here.” And I didn’t think Puerto Ricans were ready for armed struggle.
I went through cultural nationalism with Amiri Baraka, who I still love and support
and befriend to this day. We had a mutual defense pact. If they messed with his

24

�people, I would be there. If they messed with ours, he’d be there. He had a
group called Committee for Unified Newark. Just imagine this now. Imagine the
poetry. Imagine looking at Albert Ayler, Sun Ra, Leon Thomas, Pharoah
Sanders, Nikki Giovanni, Barbara Ann Teer and the National Black Theatre. It
was the most incredible time to be alive. At the same time, I was also listening to
[00:45:00] Ginsburg down at the Nuyorican Poets Café. I would meet with him all
the time. Ezra Pound lived on my block in the East Village. I was going out with
different cultures, Ronni Brown, who was Jewish, who helped me run guns at
that time, Joan Meinhardt, who was my teacher (laughs) at the time but who I
loved dearly, who I left.
JJ:

What do you mean, “helped you run guns”?

FL:

Ronni, we needed -- Rap and I were building a cell. Rap was building a cell, and
we needed guns. And we had to transport it from one place to another. Rap was
never a racist, and he would say, “Well, if that’s your girlfriend, that’s your
girlfriend, but we need a car.” And I sat with her, “Ronni, let me drive.” I said,
“Let me drive.” I said, “Anything happens, I’ll say I stole it.” She said, “No. If
anything’s gonna happen, I’m gonna drive the car because you can’t drive. You
don’t have a license. I’ll drive it.” So, this little Jewish girl form Bayside, New
York -- may she rest in peace; she died, and I loved her dearly, maybe didn’t
show it as much as I should have, but I did -- [00:46:00] helped me transport the
guns to Rap. Rap and I were part of an underground cell, along with Sam
Melville, one of the finest bombers I’ve ever met, and a few other guys in that
cell, and we did what we had to do. I never met a more brave warrior in my life,

25

�bar none, black, brown, white, yellow, polka-dot, red. Rap Brown was, and to
me, still is, one of the finest warriors in America and taught me a lot and was the
one who told me, “You got to go back into your own community.” And I said, “I’m
not -- I’m here. I’m a Black Puerto Rican. I’m helping define cultural nationalism,
revolutionary nationalism, socialism.” He said, “Felipe, your job here is done.
You put the B in Black nationalism here on 125th Street, you, and Gylan Kain, and
Amiri Baraka and Larry Neal and the Braith brothers,” the Braithwaites, I mean.
We were doing tremendous jobs, organizing workshops, but he said, “Your job is
[00:47:00] to go back to your community and work with it.” So, Mickey Meléndez,
David Perez, Denise Oliver, Yoruba would come over, and I wasn’t part of the
group yet, came over and got me, recruited me to start a group called La
Sociedad de Albizu Campos, and we started there.
JJ:

What year was this?

FL:

This was late ’68.

JJ:

And where was that at?

FL:

Pardon me?

JJ:

Where did you start it?

FL:

Where did we start?

JJ:

Yeah.

FL:

In El Barrio. We would have meetings all the time. Little did they know that I had
already started a group. I had been trying to work with Victor Hernández Cruz
and another guy named George Rivera. I had already gone to Bobby Seale
before I met these guys and tried to start a Puerto Rican group. I’d gone to

26

�Bobby and James Forman and a guy named Pennywell, if I’m not mistaken. And
I said, “Bobby, I’d like to start --” Thank God, we got a meeting with him. I was in
awe. He always very humble, very noble man, and he listened to me patiently.
James Forman was looking at me with aspersion, looking at me like I was
[00:48:00] not equal to him. Let me just put it to you that way. And he said,
“What do you want to do?” I said, “We’re ready for armed struggle.” I had
already bought my first rifle. I was ready. I can’t explain to you what it felt like at
that time to see the destruction of a community in stages, just started crumbling
right underneath you. The Barrio that I came back to after jail was not the Barrio
that I had left, warm, familial, music, gangs that protected. This was a Barrio that
was riddled with drugs, riddled with materialism, and everyone was looking out
for themselves. Nobody was caring for families, older people, young people. I
was in shock. I was traumatized, and I knew something had to happen. And I
saw cops beating up dope fiends. It was horrible. Families were broken.
Families that I knew had mothers and fathers suddenly were by themselves. The
women were by themselves. So, I wanted to do something, and [00:49:00] I was
caught up in the fact that King had died. King was killed. In fact, I left my
teacher, Joan Meinhardt, because I couldn’t live with her. I just couldn’t. I just
had to fight. I had to be as Black as I could, and she said, “You’re gonna get
killed.” I remember leaving her house on Bank Street with her screaming in the
background. It’s a hard image. Anyway, I went with Nikki, and I went with the
other Young Lords, not Young Lords at the time, and we started cleaning up the
streets.

27

�JJ:

Before that, there was a couple other groups. Was it The Pickles or something?

FL:

Yeah, there was another group with Pickle.

JJ:

They were Young Lords too?

FL:

They were part of us. The original Young Lords was me, David Perez from
Chicago, Pablo Guzmán, Juan Gonzalez, and Fi Ortiz. Three of us were Black
Puerto Ricans, which was interesting because that had never happened before,
[00:50:00] big ol’ fros. And we started recruiting. And then we had hooked up -Fi had introduced -- we had hooked up with Pickle.

JJ:

Yeah, because Fi was with Pickle, right?

FL:

Right, Fi was with Pickle. Fi was part of a gang thing, and so we had recruited
him.

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) was called the Young Lords, the gang?

FL:

No, it wasn’t called the Young, not that I know of anyway. But these were good
guys, and I liked them, and we got along pretty well. And we all came together.
Eventually, through attrition, people began to -- because we began to really deal
with scholarship, began to deal with reading, began to deal with a refining period,
and a lot of street guys either couldn’t or wouldn’t handle it. So, we realized as
we were organizing that we’re spending more and more time on the streets than
in classroom. We had to make a decision, and it was a difficult decision to make,
not for me. I was definitely afraid of exams. I had got a D-plus in physics, so I
didn’t want to go through that again. I left college. It was a [00:51:00]
tremendous amount of anger in me.

JJ:

So, you guys were the organizers.

28

�FL:

We were the organizers, the primary organizers for us. There were three
colleges involved, CCNY, which is where we’re taping this today; Queens
College, me; Nikki had gone there for a while; and the University of Old
Westbury, which is where we got Denise Oliver, Pablo Guzmán, and David
Perez, and [Moon?] too and a few others who had been there. Before I go any
further with this, I should add, and this may come as a shock to most people,
one-third of the party was African American, all supporting Puerto Rican
independence. So, that nonsense that you cannot have people from other
cultures supporting your particular ideological aims and vision is not true. The
one-third of that group were all Muslim, so think about that. My brother, Lucky,
[00:52:00] older brother, was one of the first Puerto Rican Muslims here in New
York City. He’s dead now. Now we realize we’ve got to do something. We start
with, I had a little group called the Harlem Action Committee, a little anti-poverty
program we start. We asked the people, what do they need? And we really
meant this. We took a little poll. [And we told the viejitas?], and I thought they
were going to say they was tired of our kids being beaten up by police. I thought
were going to talk about welfare. I wanted something that was a real target,
something that was romantic and bold and violent. They told us, “Could you just
pick up the garbage? Could you get the sanitation department to pick up the
garbage?” My ego was so deflated. I mean, that just took the wind out of my
sails, but that’s what the people wanted. Number-one lesson in revolutionary
activity, listen to the people. Listen to their wants, their needs, and their visions.
It’s the first thing you gotta do. So, of course, we decided to test it. We

29

�[00:53:00] swept, and we’d put the garbage in plastic bags and put them on the
corner very neat. First weekend, nobody came. They would come Tuesday.
Now, after a weekend of summer activity, and as you know, we drink a lot of beer,
it smelled a lot. So, what we did is we decided to test it to a second week, and
we did it again. By the second week, we had had it.
JJ:

Is that once a week or --

FL:

Yeah, it was a once-a-week pickup and particularly on weekends, and they
weren’t coming that many times. And if it was a two-time-a-week thing, it wasn’t
enough for the garbage that was being produced.

JJ:

That you swept.

FL:

Yeah, that we swept. So, there was also community garbage. So, the first thing
we needed to do was get brooms, and we went to a garbage station, and we told
the guy, “Look, we need brooms.” [00:54:00] I remember this guy, kinda portly,
who looked at us with such disdain. I said, “Well, could you give us some
brooms? Could you let us borrow ‘em? We’ll bring ‘em right back.” “Who the
hell are you?” Now, remember, I’m from jail. I don’t fear anything but God, and
He and I have problems. This guy was telling me I couldn’t. I just pushed him,
boom, to the side. And I remember the looks on the Lords, because I think they
were thinking the revolution was romantic and that you could talk about it, but
you can’t do it. But I’m coming from the Brooklyn House of Detention, where cats
are getting raped, and we’re talking about [yaku?] and the white man and 66
million years of caveman activity, and Black men should do for self, and I’m
coming out of the projects, where everything was about confrontation. This man

30

�was not a problem. We went and took the brooms, and we brought ‘em back.
One thing I will add is that every time a leader [00:55:00] makes a moves or
makes a move that is out of the ordinary for the group, something happens to the
group. They begin to see him a little differently, some envy, some jealousy, just
light, and it’s almost unconscious. But the seeds of the destruction of the Lords
started right around there. But I’ll give you some other examples, and we gotta
go because you gotta get outta here.
JJ:

Yeah, we’ve got about 15 minutes.

FL:

Okay. We put the garbage on the streets. Sanitation didn’t come. We put the
garbage on the streets, and it stopped traffic. We didn’t know that when you stop
traffic, you stop commerce. We did that for several weeks running. It was called
The Garbage Offensive. And when the cops started realizing that we were going
to do this every Saturday or every Friday evening, they decided to come in
squads of sanitation men and police cars and throw the garbage out and put it
into the garbage. [00:56:00] So, what we did is we set fire to them, and so they
could do it, towering 10 feet of fire. That was the first offensive we had. The
second offensive was the church. We started doing breakfast program based on
what the Panthers had done. We decided to build a breakfast program. It was
enormously successful. We were having a problem delivering food, just didn’t
have enough, and when we went to the bodegueros, they would give us a hard
time. Sometimes they would give it to us out of, you know, ay bendito stuff. I get
a call from a guy, one of the street guys I knew, said, “Felipe, somebody wants to
talk to you down the block.” Now, the only guy down the block was the mafia

31

�guy. So, I went down there into his warehouse, and he says, “I like what you
guys are doing.” He was half Puerto Rican, half Italian. He said, “I like what you
guys are doing. You’re not messing with any of our businesses.” Because I
asked him, “Why am I here? Did we do anything? Is there [00:57:00] something
we need to resolve?” He said, “Nah, take it easy. Sit down.” And he kept on
looking on me. He said, “You need anything?” Now, when the boys ask you, “Do
you need anything,” you know there’s going to be a quid pro quo, so I said no.
He said, “You sure?” And something in me said, “Tell him.” I said, “We’re having
a hard problem getting food.” He said, “Like what?” I said, “Orange juice, milk,
bread, eggs, bacon.” Shook his, just going like that with his head. He said, “How
much do you need?” I said, “A lot. We serve a lot of kids.” He said, “Tomorrow,
you’ll have no problem. Go to any store in East Harlem, no problem.” The same
bodegueros who gave us hard times and sometimes would curse us, had the
stuff ready for us when we got there, which just shows you the power of power,
the nature of power. He had put the word out, “Give these kids anything they
want.” Our breakfast program was tremendously successful. Then we went on
to a garbage offensive, I’m sorry, to a hospital offensive, and we took over
Lincoln Hospital [00:58:00] because so many people were dying. We had found
out that a Puerto Rican woman had died from a simple scraping, and we decided
to take that hospital over. We took over a TV truck. But going back to the
breakfast program, we couldn’t find a place to cook the food. And we went to this
one guy, the First Spanish Methodist Church on 111th and Lexington. I remember
I used to go to preschool there. And the Cuban minister told us that we were

32

�Castro-ites and that we were not to be even tolerated, threw us out. So, for six
weeks, we went there, and on the seventh week, I couldn’t take it anymore. I
stood up to talk on testimonial Sunday. I ran to the front of the church. The cops
told me, “If you don’t --” He had cops in the church, the minister, made sure that
he had cops there. We were shocked because this was supposed to be a
sanctuary. We didn’t want to hurt them. Well, he told me, “Well, Mr. Luciano, it’s
either here or outside.” I said, “Well, then we’ll do it right here,” and that’s when
they began to beat the hell out of me. It’s the second-worst beating I’ve gotten in
my life. I almost fainted. [00:59:00] There was a little voice that said, “Go to
sleep.” By the way, when the voice tells you, “Go to sleep,” don’t go to sleep. I
caught one in the face. I caught another one with my elbow, but I was
overwhelmed, and they broke my arm in two places, and they gave me about
eight stitches, seven, eight stitches in the head. I was a little in shock because
the other Lords were in the back, and they were looking from the pews. I was
hoping that I’d get some help. I began to realize the limits of revolutionary fervor.
I was a true believer, coming out of a Pentecostal background. Thirteen of us
were arrested. That gave us a reputation worldwide. It went around the world.
Jane Fonda came to our church. We opened up the church. Oh, what happened
is they bust us; they tell us we can’t go back to the church, so the next week after
they arrest us and beat us up, we took the church over, and we opened it up for
breakfast.
JJ:

That’s when people got arrested or --

33

�FL:

No. The people got arrested the first time. [01:00:00] After we took over the
church, we kept it open for a month or two, and they arrested all of us.

JJ:

That’s what, about 100 people who were arrested?

FL:

Yeah, in the second, after we had finished the breakfast program. There was
some voices of dissension. We were having some problems. A, we had guys
that were -- I believed that certain people should never be allowed to join the
party, particularly those who talked a lot but weren’t ready to throw down. One
guy came into our office and said, “I could make bombs outta bulbs,” and said
just too much. And I told him, “Either you’re an agent or a fool.” His name was
Julio Roldan. He got busted on one of the last garbage offensives and couldn’t
handle it. [01:01:00] Incarceration is a very strange thing. I’m not putting this on
him. I’m just saying that some people can handle this; some people can’t. He
hung himself. The Lords lied. I was already out of power. The reason I was out
of power, I was demoted, is because I had made love to -- Yoruba and I went to a
woman’s house. They were informants. We didn’t know it at the time. And I
went to their house, and they started talking to me. Yoruba went into the room
with one. I went in, stayed in the living room with another, and she gave me
some pot. The pot immediately got me sick and woozy. I did not feel well. I
almost felt suicidal. I told her, “The window is too open. Can you close it?” She
opened it up even more. I didn’t know it, but I was being drugged by PCP, and I
found that a lot of revolutionaries had been drugged like that. And it must’ve
been a massive dose because I had only taken two puffs. [01:02:00] Something
in me said this woman is an agent, and it’s too late for me. I couldn’t move. And

34

�I said, “You got me up here. You better bring me down.” Somehow, I stayed up
12 hours, and I threw up. Now, after I threw up, for some reason, I wanted to get
back at -- I wanted to conquer, and so I made love to her, or whatever you call it.
I don’t think it was love. Yoruba walks in, sees me. Pablo sees me. I knew that
there was some sort of jealousy maybe, envy, with most of the guys. I saw this in
the Central Committee. I was a two-fisted bro, which is what we needed at that
time. There were people in the party who told me that the guys who were
Central Committee members at the time, while they liked me, they weren’t
exactly in love with me. But the liked the fact that I could lead people and that I
had a very good touch with folks in the street. [01:03:00] So, Yoruba comes in
and sees me on this woman, and he’s in shock, and he goes right back into his
room. I get up. It’s all over. As we were going back home, we were supposed to
report every 24 hours, and we hadn’t. And as we’re coming out, I said, “Pablo,
don’t tell. Don’t go to the party office and say anything. I will tell.” I was married
to Iris Morales. I was married to one of our party members. And Yoruba goes
right back to the office and tells everybody. So, from a street point of view, he
was wrong. From a revolutionary point of view, he may have been right, but I
thought we had a relationship. And he should’ve said, “Let Felipe explain it to
you. Let the chairman explain what happened. I’m not going to say anything ‘til
he comes.” Didn’t happen that way. Well, I was accused of male chauvinism.
The party got into my business, the relationship that I had with Iris.
JJ:

(inaudible) male chauvinism because you were married?

35

�FL:

Because I was married, and I went [01:04:00] with this white girl. This is no
justification, and there’s no reason to bring this up, but I’ma bring it up.
Everybody was doing everybody in the party, even dope fiends. The majority of
the defense department were all drug addicts, and they were [screwing with?]. In
those days, AIDS was not thought of, so people had boyfriends who were drug
addicts. Denise had one. Myrna had one. We had a lot of -- it was okay. It was
the way. You know, drug addicts were part of our family. Anyway, I was accused
of male chauvinism and unclear politics, and I was demoted. The demotion was
so severe to me. I put my lifeblood into this organization. And to make a long
story short, Julio Roldan is -- so, I’m demoted, and I feel just such enmity, such
venom, vitriol from the people that I helped organize. So, in the interim, the party
had decided to [01:05:00] take over the People’s Church again with guns
because Julio Roldan had killed himself, and they lied and said that Julio Roldan
was killed by police. It was a lie. Yoruba knows it was a lie, will admit to it to this
day. And they used that as an organizing tactic. I would’ve never agreed with
that. You never lie to the people. They take over the People’s Church with guns,
some of the guns that I had bought, and they take over the People’s Church, and
people rally to their cry. It was romantic. It was the worst move they could’ve
made. When I walked into the People’s Church with the guns, I noticed that kids,
that the members, high-ranking members were not supposed to be (inaudible). I
said, “Well, who’s here? Who’s gonna fight it out?” There was nobody of any
importance. I said, “This is ridiculous.” I got very pissed off at the way it was
handled. I thought there was no planning in it. [01:06:00] It may have been

36

�romantic. And I saw a kid, about 12, with a break-over shotgun, a break-gun
shotgun, just taking 30-caliber bullets, and it was sliding. He said, “I wonder why
this is happening.” I said, “My God.” I remember asking David, “David, how are
you gonna escape? Do you have access? Do you have access?” And he goes,
“You have an escape plan. Before you think of any battle, you think of strategy,
tactics, and possible escape routes.” He said, “We’re gonna drill through the wall
into the subway.” I knew he had already developed what we call siege mentality,
where you think the impossible is possible. But what really got me mad is
nobody in the Central Committee was going to be in there when the cops came,
when the shooting was going to start. So, I had called a meeting, Pi and I. I
said, “I can’t believe how cowardly you guys are, how ill-planned this is, illconceived. I’ve seen things I would never have believed that you would plan it
this way. Are you trying to compensate for me not being here [01:07:00]
anymore? Are you trying to tell people you’re tough guys? There’s a way to do
this, and this is not the way.” And I took my beret and threw it into the middle of
the room. Nobody moved. Pi and I were pretty good with our hands. But they
could’ve moved. They didn’t. And I left. Immediately after, about three months
after, I hear that Pablo’s going out with -- and I knew this was COINTELPRO.
COINTELPRO was working overtime. Yoruba’s now going out with Iris, and in
those days, I was a Puerto Rican macho, and I was going to kill him. Thank God
I didn’t. I loved his mother; I loved his father, and I love him. I love Iris. I love all
of the Young Lords, and while we may have had our differences, I think we were
divinely ordained to do what we had to do. So, just to show you how still into the

37

�streets I was, I had a knife. I was ready to stab Yoruba because he was going
with Iris. Oh, my God. [01:08:00] Thank God. Here’s the end of my story. As
I’m ready to stab him, I was looking for the right spot in his neck to stick the knife
into the jugular, and the former defense department that I knew were waiting on a
line, three of them, to put me into a car to drive me to safe houses that Mickey
Meléndez was supposed to have set up. As I’m ready to stab him, I just
happened to look in the sky. Went like that just to get him off focus so that I can - when you go like this and the other person goes like that, and you go bing, and
I saw the New York Post, and I swear to you, I said, “YLP destroyed by love
triangle,” and I said, “Oh, my God. This is the government.” Even if it were true,
first of all, no man has a right to tell a woman who to make love to. If you’re
separated from her, that’s it, and no is no. And I remember Iris saying, “You think
you’re so tough.” [01:09:00] I remember her, hearing her voice. “He’s softer than
you,” or, “He’s not as hard as you.” The voice was slowly -- I said, “You deserve
each other,” and I left them both, and I walked away. I am very happy I didn’t kill
that boy. He’s a great reporter for CBS. He’s a great writer. It would’ve
destroyed his mother and his father, whom I loved dearly. His kids wouldn’t have
had a father. Iris has turned out to be a great lawyer. She now runs MNN, the
public TV. And everyone turned out fairly well, with the exception of the defense
department, all the drug addicts, Bobby Lemus. These are the guys that I feel
them; I live with them, Robles, Bobby Lemus, Georgie Littleman, my brother
Lucky, GI, Frenchie, [01:10:00] Huracan. These were all of the people who didn’t
make it. That is, after the Lords, the subsequent illnesses that develop out of

38

�heroin addiction killed them all. But they’re the ones that I owe a great deal of
gratitude for, and they’re the ones I love. And to this day, my mission, as I’m in
seminary school right now -- I’m in the last year of my master’s program in Union
Theological Seminary -- my mission is to those, the marginalized, the criminal,
so-called, the oppressed. I’m not interested in the do-gooders, the nice kids, the
predisposed. I want hardcore, men and women who just, it’s like this, who do or
die. Those are the ones I love, and those are the ones I’m committed to.
JJ:

Any final thoughts, or that was it? [01:11:00]

FL:

My final thoughts are I wish that the Young Lords would get over the past. We
continue to hurl accusations at each other that have kept our community from
moving forward and us from moving forward. We need to heal old wounds. We
need to say, “I’m sorry,” because after my demotion, the Lords ended up in a
feeding frenzy. They beat each other up over who spoke Spanish and who
didn’t. Many of the Black members left because they felt unwelcome. We went
through a cultural nationalism phase. We went to Puerto Rico, which was illconceived, bad. And we began to eat each other up. Remember that when you
cut off leadership, I’m not saying it’s just for me, but when you cut the head off
and don’t try to nurture leadership, while I may not have been the best, I knew I
was good at what I did. They also cut themselves off from community, which was
my forte. It’s not that I’m better. Everybody has a gift. [01:12:00] Yoruba’s gift is
public relations. Yoruba could get press when anybody could. Juan was a great
strategist. David was a fantastic community person. [Jíbaro?] up to the bone
and gave us that Puerto Rican edge. And Fi was a great gang person, and of

39

�course I was an orator, so we had a wonderful conglomeration of great people.
Eventually, we also had to remember that we didn’t have women, so Iris came in,
and Denise came in, and Gloria came in. And of course, they started blaming a
woman named Gloria for having engendered all of the problems in the Lords,
which are not true. They allowed it to happen. And we ended up killing, hurting
each other. COINTELPRO was behind every one of those moves, every one of
those moves that helped to destroy the party. My last thoughts are that we’re
now in our 60s. If we could just tell each other how much we love each other, Fi,
David, Iris, Richie Pérez is now dead, but if we could just get [01:13:00] by this
and say, “Look, I forgive you,” as I do, Pablo, as I do, Iris, as I do, Pi, as I do,
Huey, as I do all of them. If we could just say, let us now begin to work on a new
version and leave a legacy of love, militancy, intelligence, scholarship, and
revolutionary activity for our children so that our kids could get to know each
other, so that our communities could heal, we need to do that. And so, if I could
say anything to whoever’s watching this, and to the Lords who may be watching
this, is that let’s get past the past. We are new creatures. Let’s forgive each
other. Let’s walk hand-in-hand into that new future.
JJ:

Thank you very much.

END OF VIDEO FILE

40

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Walter Felver
World War II-Post War
38 minutes 45 seconds
(00:00:10) Early Life
-Born in Littleton, Colorado on September 4, 1927
-Moved to Phillipsburg, New Jersey when he was five years old and grew up there
-Father worked for Ingersoll Rand
-During the Great Depression he only worked four times a month
-Refused to accept welfare though
-He had three brothers and one sister
-He was next to youngest
-When they were old enough they all got jobs to help the family out
-He worked for a newsstand and also sold ice cream to bus passengers
-Sometimes would just ride a bus to Philadelphia and back
(00:03:03) World War II
-Heard about Pearl Harbor when he was in a movie theatre
-Manager stopped the movie and announced that Pearl Harbor had been bombed
-Didn’t notice too many changes at first other than his father having more work
-The rationing of meat and gasoline was put into effect shortly after the war began
-Had an old car and had to keep top half of the headlights painted
-This was to comply with the blackouts at night
-Two of his brothers went into the service during the war
-His oldest brother went in first, and then the second oldest brother went in
-Second brother was killed in action on August 16, 1944 at Caen, France
-Oldest brother made a thirty year career out of the Army
(00:06:58) Getting Drafted
-Graduated from high school in June 1945
-After high school he continued to work for that same newsstand
-He registered for the draft and knew that eventually he would have to serve
-Received his draft notice in August 1945
-Reported for duty on January 6, 1946 and went to Fort Hancock, New Jersey
-Initially was sent to the Port Authority in New York City to board a ferry
-Took the ferry up the Hudson River to Fort Hancock
-Remembers seeing an aircraft carrier in the Hudson River
-It was very cold at Fort Hancock
-Stayed there until basic training was set to begin
(00:10:33) Basic Training and Tank Training
-Placed on a train and rode from Fort Hancock to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training
-Remembers seeing his house from a distance as they passed through New Jersey
-Only time that he ever got homesick
-Train ride took about a day and a half
-Upon arrival at Fort Knox he was assigned to a barracks and medically examined

�-He was assigned to armor, specifically tanks
-They would go out on the range and practice shooting the M1 rifle and .30 cal. machine gun
-Learned how to drive a tank, command its crew, and load and fire the main gun
-Went on marches and received something similar to infantry training
-Physically demanding
-Part of the infantry training involved crawling under barbed wire and being shot over
-There was a high emphasis on discipline and following orders as well as following protocol
-Had a little difficulty transitioning into being a soldier
-Eventually wound up enjoying it
-The drill sergeants training them had been in World War Two
-Go to punishment for insolent soldiers was extra kitchen patrol duty or sentry duty
-Trained in the M4 Sherman tank which was equipped with a 75mm main gun
-Was not difficult to drive
-Driving it was done using two levers and two brake pedals for each track
-Trained at Fort Knox for two months
(00:16:50) Assignment to Fort Lewis
-After training was complete he was allowed a thirty day leave home
-Sent to Fort Lewis, Washington
-Had to find transportation to get there on his own
-Took about four days to travel from New Jersey to Washington
-He was assigned to the 717th Tank Battalion in the 2nd Infantry Division
-Prepared to go overseas if necessary
-There were three alerts for them to go to Korea
-They were supposed to go to Fort Ord, California if they were being deployed
-He had a couple duties at Fort Lewis:
-Venereal Diseases Noncommissioned Officer (VD NCO)
-In charge of handing out and tracking small arms that were being used on base
-Everything from a .45 pistol to a .30 caliber machine gun
-At Fort Lewis they were using the M26 Pershing tank
-Armed with a .30 caliber and .50 caliber machine gun, and 90mm main gun
-He carried a .45 pistol and a .30 caliber carbine
-He was assigned to a tank crew
-There were thirty tanks in the 717th Tank Battalion
-He was part of A Company
-One of his duties was to assign small arms to different people for different tasks
-Then make sure that the weapons were returned and secured afterwards
-As VD NCO he had to make sure that men had protection when they left the fort
-Also show movies and give talks about what you should do and shouldn’t do
-He made the rank of Technician Fourth Grade (similar in pay to sergeant)
-Majority of the men that he served with were also T4’s
-Fort Lewis was fairly close to Olympia, Tacoma, and Seattle
-20 miles, 35 miles, and 50 miles respectively
-There was a bus that would take you to Olympia
-A lot of times you had to get your own transportation
-You could get a three day pass to Portland, Oregon if you wanted one

�(00:24:24) Men He Served With
-Most of the men were new to the Army like he was
-Some of the men at Fort Lewis had fought in World War Two
-A close friend of his at Fort Lewis had been on the Bataan Death March
-The veterans would talk relatively openly about their experiences in the war
-There were men from all over the country
(00:25:42) Daily Routine
-Get up in the morning and get breakfast
-Go out for the assignment of the day
-Going on maneuvers or going on a hike
(00:26:13) Maneuvers in San Diego
-For some larger maneuvers they would go down to San Diego, California
-For the trip down they had to waterproof the vehicles with cosmoline
-They would sail out of Puget Sound and then go down the West Coast
-Once in the San Diego area they would drop anchor about three miles off the shore
-They would go to shore and back in a LCM (landing craft mechanical)
-Remembers going back to the ship in a storm on one maneuver
-Thought the LCM would sink and he would drown
-The storm was so bad even sailors were getting seasick
-And to get onto the ship he had to climb up a rope ladder in rough seas
-Navy, Air Force, and Marines were involved in these maneuvers as well
-Remembers the Army-Navy Game was being play at this time
-They actually stormed a beach in San Diego as part of the maneuvers
-Remembers the water still being so warm in November
-Went through the city of San Diego on half-tracks and people waved to them
-Felt like they were coming back victorious from a war
-It was enjoyable to go into the city
-They stayed overnight in a barracks
-The next day they boarded the USS Skagit and sailed back up to Seattle
(00:32:38) Downtime
-They would visit the nearby cities for their sources of entertainment
-Never did anything that got him into trouble or that he felt he shouldn’t have done
-There was a nice dance hall in Portland, Oregon
-Could go to movies
-Some men would get into trouble when they left base
-Either by going to the bars or having relationships with local women
-He managed to avoid that
(00:34:20) End of Service
-He spent a year and a half at Fort Lewis
-He knew that he was going to be discharged in September 1947
-One of his final duties was to be an armed escort to transport a prisoner to the mental hospital
-Had to sit in the back of the truck with a loaded rifle, across from the prisoner
-Transportation happened without incident
-Relieved to get back to Fort Lewis and turn in his rifle

�(00:36:04) Weather at Fort Lewis
-Remembers that it rained almost constantly in the area that Fort Lewis was in
-As a result he would have to take his uniform to Tacoma every week to get pressed
(00:36:34) Life after the Army
-Went home and one of the first things he did was see his girlfriend
-He got a job at the Easton Daily Express, a newspaper in eastern Pennsylvania
-Worked as a compositor (setting the type or text for printing)
-Worked there for forty four years
-Eventually moved to Michigan with his wife to be closer to his two children
-Son had gotten a job in Lansing, Michigan to be a TV weatherman
-Daughter’s husband’s job transferred him to Michigan

�</text>
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                    <text>March 1Clh
Women's Center Tea Party
4:00pm
Pere Marquette Room
Kirkhof Center

Outstanding Women's
Awards Ceremony
12:00 pm
Grand River Room
Kirkhof Center
Susan Gubar,
·A Feminism of One's own·
1:00pm
215/216 K1rkhof Center

March 17\h
Victoria Sanford
7:00pm
Cook DeWitt Auditorium

March 2Clh
Women's Retreat with
Tess Marshall,
"Flying By the Seat of My Soul"
10:00 am - 2:00 pm
204 Kirkhof Center

March2ah
Women Pioneers Panel
(faculty members from History)
12:00 pm
104 Kirkhof Center
Advocacy Training with
Jean Doss (lobbyist)
7:00 pm - 8:30pm
215/216 Kirkhof Center

'
I

'.Jf/
' ' t-'

Feminism and the New Masculin
Putting Down the Gun and Wakin
Up to Who We Really Are
co-spcnsors:· Women and Gender Slulfies
Office Of the Presider1

Women's Cer1er

4

•

_.

�</text>
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LORDE

THIS COURSE EXAMINES
THE LIFE AND WORK OF
A SIGNIFICANT FEMINIST
VISIONARY THINKER
WHOSE THEORIES, WORK
AND/OR ACTIONS HAVE
EFFECTED DEEP CHANGE
IN THE WORLD .
WINTER 2018
TUESDAY/THURSDAY
10 - 11 15 AM
(CRN : 33591)
DR.
AYANA WEEKLEY

�</text>
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TUESDAY &amp; THURSDAY
1-2 : 15pm
WGS Students con count this
course as on elective .
LIB students con use this course
as a substitute for LIB 400

WGS 380
FEMINIST VISIONARY THINKERS

NAWAL EL SAADAWI
Study the visionary ideas of femin ist activist,
physician, psychiatrist and novelist Nowol El
Saadowi alongside Professor Donielle
DeMuth .

�</text>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="831336">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="51">
            <name>Type</name>
            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="831337">
                <text>Text</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="42">
            <name>Format</name>
            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="831338">
                <text>application/pdf</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="44">
            <name>Language</name>
            <description>A language of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="831339">
                <text>eng</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="45">
            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="1033376">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
        </elementContainer>
      </elementSet>
    </elementSetContainer>
  </item>
</itemContainer>
