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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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&#13;
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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Kenneth Farris
World War II
56 minutes 9 seconds
(00:00:03) Early Life
-Born in Pernell, Oklahoma in 1923
-Walked a mile and a half to school
-Father worked in the oil fields
-Went through high school
-Started school in a little country school
-Went to high school in Pernell
(00:01:01) Pearl Harbor
-He was eighteen years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed
-Remembers hearing President Roosevelt's "Day of Infamy" speech on the radio
-Read in the paper about the Japanese "peace" ambassadors in Washington D.C.
-Disappointed and upset that the United States had been pulled into the war
(00:02:17) Civilian Service &amp; Getting Drafted
-Graduated from high school in June 1942
-History teacher was also a government inspector
-He was able to get some of the boys jobs at a Texas air base that was being built
-Drove to the air base
-200 miles away
-Helping build up the base for the war effort
-In November 1942 the draft age was dropped to eighteen years of age
-Meant that he was made eligible for the draft
-Received his draft letter in January 1943
-Didn't bother him
-Deeply upset both of his parents though
-Father took it especially hard
-Went to Pauls Valley then took a bus to Oklahoma City for his Army physical
-Passed the physical
-Given seven days of leave before reporting for basic training
-Father died in April 1943
-Believes that the stress of his youngest son getting drafted contributed to
that
(00:06:01) Basic Training
-Took a train to Miami, Florida
-Took seven, or eight, days
-Initially went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma to be processed and given clothes
-Didn't matter if the clothes fit
-Given vaccinations
-Everyone was lined up and moved through a door getting injections in
each arm

�-Greeted by a 2nd lieutenant
-Spent seven days at Fort Sill
-They were all draftees
-Mostly from Oklahoma, but they came from other parts of the country too
-Hadn't travelled much before that
-Only went to Illinois for a couple summers to work at his brother's gas
station
-Reported to Pauls Valley and took a bus to Fort Sill
-Took about one full day to get to the fort
-Fort Sill was a big base
-Started learning some basic things about Army life
-Ex. learning how to march
-From Fort Sill he took a troop train to Miami
-Basic training lasted twelve weeks
-Quartered in a hotel on the beach
-Had blackouts at night
-First day at Miami he had to march two miles with a rifle
-Got up every day before daylight and went to the drill field
-Had to make your bed and go to breakfast first
-Marched a mile and a half to two miles to the drill field
-Marched back for lunch
-Marched back out to the drill field in the afternoon
-Marched back to the hotel for dinner and then went to bed
-Initially had trouble adjusting to the Army
-Didn't enjoy the Army and was homesick
-Met men from all over the country and made a lot of good friends
(00:13:30) Salt Lake City, Utah and His Father's Death
-Boarded another troop train and was taken to Salt Lake City, Utah
-One train car was a cook car
-Brought your mess kit into the car and got some food
-Returned to your own car and ate there
-Took seven days to travel from Florida to Utah
-Received word that his father had died
-Got that information through the Red Cross
-Reported to a colonel (or a general)
-Interviewed to make sure that this was legitimate
-Granted an emergency furlough to go home
-Given $40 and a round trip train ticket from the Red Cros
-Went back to Pernell, Oklahoma
-Rode from Salt Lake City to Denver, then from Denver to Topeka
-Took three days to get back home
-Got to attend his father's funeral
-The day after the funeral he had to go back to Salt Lake City, Utah
(00:17:45) Assignment to 461st Bombardment Group
-In July 1943 he was in Scottsbluff Army Airfield, Nebraska
-The men he had been with in Utah had been sent to the Pacific Theatre

�-From Wendover Field, Utah he was sent to Scottsbluff Army Airfield, Nebraska
-Trained there with B-17s for ten months
-He was in ordnance
-Learning how to load ammunition
-Got a furlough going home and was about one week late getting back
-Punished for being AWOL and was transferred to transportation
-Meant hauling crews from their quarters to the bombers
-Sent to Hammer Field, California with the 461st Bombardment Group
-While he was at Hammer Field he remembers a bomber crashing in Huntington Lake
-He had been sent to Hammer Field in October 1943
-Hammer Field was basically made of tar paper barracks
-Allowed to go off the base but he had to return by a certain time
-Got in trouble for coming back to base late and drunk
(00:23:55) Deployment
-Shipped out in January 1944
-Placed on a troop train and taken to Virginia
-Most likely Camp Patrick Henry
-Boarded a Liberty Ship
-Carrying personnel, ordnance, and vehicles
-For three or four days they waited for the convoy to get together
-Didn't get seasick
-Saw men lose a tremendous amount of weight due to seasickness and not eating
-On the ship for forty six or forty seven days
-Convoy was strafed by an Axis plane when they entered the Mediterranean Sea
(00:26:25) Arrival in Italy
-Anchored off the coast of Sicily for about one week
-Waiting for the harbor in Naples to be clear
-Pulled into Naples and was taken to a bombed out college
-Stayed there for about one week
-Slept on a floor with a blanket
-Fed two meals a day
-Had only been fed two meals a day on the ship as well
-Boarded a troop train and went to Torretto-Cerignola Airfield
(00:29:27) Stationed at Torretto-Cerignola Airfield
-Made a camp on a farm near the airfield
-Used one barn as a mess hall
-Used another barn as an officers' club
-Six men to a tent
-Had a barrel in the tent that they could use for a fire source
-Used plane fuel
-By now it was February 1944
-Had to sleep on the ground for a week before they got their tent
-Stayed in the tent at Torretto-Cerignola for the rest of the war
-Torretto-Cerignola was the base of operations for the 461st Bombardment Group
-Got close with the bomber crews
-Painful when they got shot down

�-Had to wait for the bombers to arrive so missions could begin
-Missions began in April 1944
-His job was to pick the crews up from their quarters and transport them on the base
-First pick up the enlisted men and the officers from their quarters
-Take them to headquarters for their briefing
-After the briefing they were brought to the flight line to board their bombers
-Found out what the missions were after the crews returned
-Got to know some of the crews really well
-Knew how many bombers went out, and how many bombers came back
-Got close with the ground crews as well
-A life long friend was in the 461st Bombardment Group, just in a different squadron
-On a mission over Yugoslavia this friend lost his arm
-He was able to visit him in the hospital before he was sent back to the
U.S.
-Friend later became a lawyer and then became a judge
-Became routine picking up crews
(00:42:07) Downtime and Travel
-When he wasn't taking crews to the flight line he would just kill time on the base
-Took crews to the nearby town if he wasn't busy doing anything else
-Went to Rome for three days
-Visited Venice for three days
-Rode on a gondola
-There were a lot of American soldiers in Rome and Venice
-Got to visit the Vatican and see Pope Pius XII
(00:44:16) Progress of the War
-When they first got to Torretto-Cerignola they were close to the frontline
-Could see flashes of artillery fire at night
-As time went on though, Allied forces advanced north and the frontline moved
north
-At first he was afraid that they would be bombed by the Germans
-Some nights wondered if he wouldn't wake up the next day
(00:46:08) End of the War, End of Service, and Coming Home
-461st stayed at Torretto-Cerignola for the rest of the war
-He was at Torretto-Cerignola on May 8, 1945 when Germany surrendered
-Everyone was happy because they knew that they would be going home soon
-He returned home because he had enough "points" to go home
-Points: Awarded based on length of service, rank, combat seen, and dependents
-Taken to Naples by truck
-Boarded a troopship in Naples bound for the United States
-Some of the men on the ship were infantrymen that were being redeployed to the
Pacific
-On their way to the United States received news that Japan had surrendered
-The infantrymen were ecstatic that they could just go home
-Took eleven days to sail from Italy to the United States
-Places his departure from Italy as sometime in early August 1945
-Arrived in New York City

�-Got to see the Statue of Liberty
-Docked in the Hudson River
-Taken to shore by smaller boats
-Given a carton of milk
-Greeted by a welcome home committee
-Sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey
-Stayed there for three days
-Sent to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas
-Discharged from the Army Air Force there
-Felt good to see the Statue of Liberty and get welcomed home the way that he was
-At Fort Dix you could go into the mess hall and get anything you wanted to eat
-Called his mother when he was at Fort Dix and told her that he was back in the U.S.
-Had a sister that lived in Shawnee, Oklahoma
-Took a bus from Camp Chaffee to Shawnee
-Greeted by his sister and his first wife
-It was a happy time
-Hadn't been home since July 1943
-Mother was happy to see him
(00:53:09) Reflections on Service and Life after the War
-His service made him mature
-Went in as a boy and came out a man
-Glad to get out and get a job
-Got a job on an oil rig
-A lot of things he has forgotten and is glad that he has forgotten them
-Out of the six men that he bunked with in Italy he is the only one left alive
-Remembers there was a Catholic orphanage in Italy they could take their laundry to

�</text>
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              <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                  <text>Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Kenneth Farris was born in Pernell, Oklahoma in 1923. He grew up there and after graduating from high school in 1942 he worked as a civilian worker at an airfield in Texas. In January 1943 he received his draft letter and he was inducted into the Army Air Force at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. He was sent to Miami, Florida for basic training, and from there was sent to Salt Lake City, Utah. Due to his father dying in April 1943 he was separated from the men that he trained with and wound up at Scottsbluff Army Airfield, Nebraska training on ordnance with the B-17. After ten months he was transferred to transportation and was assigned to the 461st Bombardment Group. He served with them at Hammer Field, California and deployed with them in January 1944. He was stationed at Torretto-Cerignola Airfield, Italy from February 1944 to August 1945. His duty was to transport crews around the airfield from their quarters to the flightline. He was sent home in August 1945 and was ultimately discharged from Camp Chaffee, Arkansas shortly after VJ Day.</text>
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                <text>Moving Image</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan</text>
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                  <text>The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period.</text>
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it&#13;
la&#13;
nl &#13;
de</text>
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                <text>Fasciculus medicinae [folium 35]</text>
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                <text>DC-03_035Ketham1495</text>
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                <text>One leaf of Fasciculus medicinae by Johannes de Ketham. Printed in Venice by Johannes and Gregorius de Gregoriis in 1495. [GW M14179; ISTC ik00014000]</text>
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                <text>Venice: Johannes and Gregorius de Gregoriis</text>
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                <text>Incunabula</text>
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                <text>Ketham, Joannes de, 15th cent.</text>
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                <text>la</text>
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            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="762773">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en"&gt;No Copyright - United States&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>1495</text>
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                <text>Seidman Rare Books Collection</text>
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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Father Donald J. Headley
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 8/21/2012

Biography and Description
Fr. Donald Headley was first ordained as a Catholic priest in 1958 and is resident priest at the St. Mary’s
of the Woods Faith Community in Chicago. He recalls meeting with Saul Alinsky and working with Rev.
Jack Eagan, the founder of urban Catholic activism. He also recalls a great deal about the Puerto Rican
community in La Clark that grew up through the 1950s. Fr. Headley’s work in Chicago also prompted him
to spend 13 years working with the poor in the San Miguelito Mission in Panama during the late 1960s
and 1970s. The mission was an experimental parish, based on the practice of liberation theology,
organized by the Archdiocese of Chicago in 1962. By 1980, when the project was terminated by the
Archidiocese amidst controversy involving questions of theology and liturgy, the mission had assumed
control over 53 parishes and base communities.

�Transcript

JOSE JIMENEZ:

Father Dan Headley, if you can tell me your name, and --

DONALD HEADLEY:

Yeah, sure.

JJ:

-- when you were born, and where.

DH:

Okay. I was born in Chicago on July 11, 1932. My name is Don Headley, and
I’m not Irish. I am English and American Indian -- Pequot, actually -- and I am
Kashub and Polish on my mother’s side. My mom’s family came over in 1903.
She wasn’t born yet. And my dad came -- moved up from around Pontiac, and
he fell in love with my mother, and that’s how I came into existence, so
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

JJ:

Oh, Pontiac, Michigan, over by Detroit.

DH:

Mm-hmm.

JJ:

Okay. Okay. And so, you were born in the --

DH:

In Chicago.

JJ:

And you grew up where? Where did you grow up?

DH:

I grew up -- I was on the Southeast Side of Chicago, near Wentworth [00:01:00]
Avenue, which is Clark Street on the North Side, but I don’t remember that very
much. I was too small, and -- but I actually grew up just a block south of Garfield
Boulevard. Fifty-sixth Street, actually, in Winchester, where we lived in a building
that my grandfather and grandmother, who were Kashub and Polish respectively,
owned. So, we were on the first floor.

JJ:

So, was that a Polish community then, or --?

1

�DH:

No. No, it was just a regular community.

JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

[It was?] St. Basil Parish.

JJ:

St. Basil, okay.

DH:

Yeah. Now, it’s pretty much just a clinic, a health clinic. The church was torn
down, and other things were changed there, but it’s right down the block from
Visitation, where a lot of the people who used to be on 63rd Street -- Puerto
Ricans -- still live. [Riveras?], for instance. [Cesar?] Rivera’s family is still there,
I think, [00:02:00] on -- near Garfield Boulevard, in Halsted Street, actually. I was
between Damen and Ashland Avenue, actually. That’s where I was raised.

JJ:

Now, you mentioned [La Sesenta y Tres?], 63rd Street. There was a community
there at that time?

DH:

Where? I’m sorry.

JJ:

Puerto Rican -- Sixty-third Street or --

DH:

Oh, 63rd. Well, I don’t think there was much of a community [right at that?] time,
of Puerto Ricans, anyway. That was like -- I was there between 1932 --

JJ:

Oh, ’32. (inaudible)

DH:

-- and nine-- they weren’t there yet. Actually, the Puerto Ricans came in because
of a deal between President Roosevelt and Muñoz Marín. Any Puerto Rican that
came over meant 10 dollars in the budget for Puerto Rico to do urbanization
programs and stuff like that, so there was this big -- they needed people to work
in the Chrysler plant, for instance, where people were building tanks for the
Second World War. That’s when the Puerto Ricans really had their great influx.

2

�JJ:

The Chrysler plant in [00:03:00] Detroit or --?

DH:

No, in Chicago.

JJ:

In Chicago, okay.

DH:

Right.

JJ:

And what area was it?

DH:

I think that was around Western Avenue somewhere. I’m not sure where --

JJ:

But on the South Side?

DH:

-- but near the Midway Airport.

JJ:

[Midway?].

DH:

That time, Midway was the only airport in the city. There was no O’Hare.

JJ:

Right. Okay, there was no O’Hare.

DH:

But the Puerto Ricans were living pretty much, at that time, during that particular
war period -- Leo was ordained -- Father Leo Mahon --

JJ:

You said the ’40s? You’re talking about in the ’40s?

DH:

Father Leo Mahon was ordained in 1951, and he was a Holy Cross Parish -- he
went there so that he could work with the Afro-American community, and, all of a
sudden, Puerto Ricans came into the rectory and said to him, “We are not
recognized in this city, and -- what do we do? We don’t know anything about our
religion. We don’t know anything about what we’re doing here. We have no
concept of what we’re supposed to be doing.” And so, Leo went downtown to
talk to the cardinal. The cardinal said, [00:04:00] “Well, do something.”

JJ:

Which cardinal at that time?

DH:

Cardinal Stritch at that time.

3

�JJ:

Stritch, okay.

DH:

And he said, “Well, do something. It’s okay. We have to take care of all the
people.” I don’t think he knew what he was saying, but Leo then got promoted
into what was eventually called the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking,
and it was -- thank God it was not in the vicar general’s office for the
archdiocese, nor in the chancellor’s office for the archdiocese --

JJ:

Why do you say -- why do you --?

DH:

-- but it was backed by Catholic Charities.

JJ:

But why do you say that? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

DH:

Well, because those people were -- pretty much, they worked on manipulation of
power, and Catholic Charities was a little different item with Cooke at that time,
who was the -- Vince Cooke was the head of it, and he raised funds for it. He
was a tremendous businessman beside being a great priest -- Monsignor Cooke,
Vincent Cooke -- and he had all kinds of staff there, and he made Leo part of his
staff. [00:05:00] So, Leo was the executive director. Gilbert Carroll was sort of
liaison between Leo and Catholic Charities. And Leo began to look for ways in
which he could actually affect the Puerto Rican community, and he said, “Well,
what about community organization? How is that possible? [Do we have to?]
organize as a community? You have leaders, don’t you?” He said, “Oh, yeah.
We have leadership, but they don’t know what to do,” which was normal.

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

Yeah. They needed somebody to help. So, he went to Saul Alinsky, and Saul
Alinsky was -- at that time, he had the -- I’m sorry.

4

�JJ:

That’s okay.

DH:

Saul Alinsky had the -- course, his organization. So, he lent two people to us.
Nick von Hoffman was one of the people, who is now a writer and who’s retired.
He wrote for the Washington Post after he left Saul Alinsky’s organization. And
Lester Hunt, who also, before, [00:06:00] I think, he was here, or just after he
was here -- he was here in Chicago, working with the Puerto -- I’m not sure
exactly when that happened, but he lives, now, in Chicago, Lester does, and he
became a high school teacher eventually. If you want to -- it might be a good
idea to talk to him. He’s a really great guy, and he lives on Randolph Street, East
Randolph Street. But these people helped to form people like Juan Sosa,
[Calvino?] (inaudible), José Valentín, [Julio Vides?], all these people that
eventually -- Cesar Rivera, the Chevere brothers. All these people were together
in this -- [where that?] really began on the Southeast Side, you know, around 63rd
Street and near the parish where Father Leo was. But Leo then, eventually, took
up an office. He had one office that was right on Wacker Drive, and then they
moved to the [corner of?] what was the -- 1300 Wabash, [00:07:00] which was
the big place, which we occupied for a while. We even put murals in there for the
[Cursillo?], for the chapel, for the Cursillo, and, on the first -- primer alto, the first
floor, we had other things redolent of what was the -- representative of what was
the immigration flux into Chicago, not only Puerto Rican, but -- at that time, there
were Mexican as well and other communities as well. Pretty much -- you know,
when I think of my own passage, I was circumstantial because I used to take

5

�people down from St. Patrick’s, where I -- was my first particular assignment as
an associate, and -JJ:

St. Patrick’s (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

DH:

St. Patrick’s on Adams and Des Plaines.

JJ:

[Adams and?] -- okay.

DH:

And what I found there was a community that was pretty much broken people.
[There were?] pimps, prostitutes, drug addicts. There were [00:08:00] drunkards,
you know, but -- alcoholics, actually, and it was Skid Row, and I was sent there
because, supposedly, I was being punished because I wouldn’t do something for
some professor in the seminary. I guess that was why they sent me there. After
five years, though, after working there for five years, they wanted me to go teach
history at Quigley, and I was going to go to Quigley, when they told me that, well,
Leo was going to Panama, and they wanted me to take over the Hispanic office
in Chicago, which was the Cardinal’s Committee for the Spanish Speaking. That
time, we were organizing the community. So, it was pretty much circumstantial,
the way I got involved in all this. That’s what happens in life, you know. You sort
of plan for certain things, and it goes in another direction, which is fine. I’ve been
very happy in what I do. But, while I was at St. Pat’s, my acquaintance with
people was really wonderful and spectacular. I learned more in the [00:09:00]
five years that I was at St. Patrick’s than I had learned in twelve years in
seminary [presence?], I think. The people taught me a lot, and that people who
were on the edge could also put people who cared and loved and who had a lot

6

�of hope -- Puerto Ricans that were coming in, living at the [West Hotel?] -- it was
-- horrible situation.
JJ:

The West Hotel?

DH:

West Hotel was -- there’s now a hotel on Madison Street, a big, you know, motor
hotel.

JJ:

Right there on Madison?

DH:

Right there on Madison. Well, that --

JJ:

And Des Plaines?

DH:

-- used to be the West Hotel, which was --

JJ:

Madison and Des Plaines there?

DH:

-- hot and cold, [running roaches?]. That was what it was, and these people had
to live in that situation. There was a women there who kept cats, and, when she
died, the people went into her room to [find out?] -- she must have a lot of
money, and what they found were little packages filled with cat poo, you know.
That’s what they found in there. So, it’s pretty awful [in many ways?]. But the
place was terrifying, and yet, these people were holding their families together
and doing marvelous things with them, and they [00:10:00] would come to
Eucharist on a Sunday, and they would participate in spite of the fact it was in
Latin, you know, and maybe a homily in Spanish. I would try to fight my way
through it. But then, besides that, I began to (inaudible) people coming together
in meetings and groups, and I tried to find out where something was going on
that would get people involved, get people talking to one another. And so, some
of the Mexicans, some of the Puerto Ricans that were pretty much together, they

7

�came together. We would go, on one night, to what was the office at 13th and
Wabash, and, at 13th and Wabash, we participated in what was the formation
[meetings?], which was how to really run a dialogue in your community. How do
you really sit down with neighbors and get them to really talk to one another?
Now, I had some acquaintance with Spanish. I was just beginning to really use
the language pretty well. [00:11:00] When I was helping out over summer, for
instance, with Leo’s office, ’cause I was interested in that even then, in 1956 and
’57 -- ’56, I think, was when the first Puerto Rican parade happened. They keep
talking here about it starting in the ’60s. It never did. The first night was
(inaudible).
JJ:

[I think it was?] ’53. I saw a --

DH:

[It was really?], yeah.

JJ:

-- photo of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

Right, yeah. It was tremendous, yeah.

JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

Right, (inaudible). That was where it was, and --

JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

-- it was just a marvelous thing, and I was involved in that, you know. I was
there, and I was calling people, and talking to them on the phone, and making
sure that they got their people out in the Caballeros de San Juan, which already
existed, and all the Concilio de los Caballeros San Juan were involved in that
thing. So, this is where I was, and I didn’t know that I was going to eventually be
involved in all of this.

8

�JJ:

But they were at 13th and Wabash, the Caballeros?

DH:

They were at 13th and Wabash. Well, the office was [00:12:00] actually, at that
time, on Wacker Drive. That’s where I was making the phone calls from.

JJ:

By 1953, there were some Caballeros at --

DH:

There Were Caballeros around somewhere, yeah.

JJ:

Somewhere.

DH:

I’m not sure where they were. Probably council number one, two, and three.

JJ:

[What’s this?] -- one, two --

DH:

Two was like San José, St. Joseph’s, with the two Spaniard priests that were
there, Spanish priests that were there.

JJ:

St. Joseph’s was on the West Side?

DH:

And council three was being founded at that time with the help of Kathrein, John
Kathrein --

JJ:

[Father Kathrein?].

DH:

-- with the Redemptorists. Wonderful old guy, like 112 years old at the time, and
he -- learning Spanish for the first time in his life in -- the age of 70, I think, he
learned Spanish. He’s a great guy. But that was in the ’50s, but I’m talking
about a time like -- closer to 1968. I was ordained in 1958, and that was when I
went to St. Patrick’s, and that’s where I began, really, to get involved and to take
people to meetings at the center, which, at that time, ’58, [00:13:00] ’60, or -- [it
was?] ’59, ’60. I was already at the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking
on Wabash Avenue, 1300 Wabash. So, this was a really fascinating sort of
meeting because I met, there, [Don Sierra?], who eventually became a deacon in

9

�the church here in Chicago, and, eventually, Jesús Rodríguez. Actually, the
person that probably taught me most Spanish in the world was [Chuy?]
Rodríguez. He was a really conflictive sort of person. He had abandoned his
family for a while, living with another woman, and he had children with that
woman as well. Wonderful girl. She was a great woman. Both his wives at
different times were just wonderful people, but he went back to his first wife and
was working with his family. He was doing his best he could. Eventually,
though, he had a terrible nervous breakdown. He had had a terrible youth,
where his father or grandfather would make him [00:14:00] kneel on stones and
pray the rosary, and the sense of religiosity [he had?] -- so, listening to us, you
know, priests that were with this whole business of the council that was gonna
begin, the Second Vatican Council -- all of a sudden, he got a different image of
church. Church became, for him, not so much a religious item, but an item for
people’s faith so that they would be able to take steps into their own future and
really form their own culture, their own traditions, their own history, and the basis
of that -- live what Paul taught us about in his Letter to the Galatians, which is
spectacular. He says, “Don’t you understand what the gospel is really all about?
The good news of Jesus Christ. It’s that all of us, together, equally -- equally -share the life of the risen Christ. Men and women, Jews and Greeks, slaves and
free.” What that means in what is evangelization is that you have to lose all
sexism, all racism, and all economic [00:15:00] privilege. Now, not even the
Roman Catholic Church has done that [always?]. Look at the conquests, or look
at some of the -- our Protestant brothers and sisters who listen to the word, but

10

�I’m afraid, you know, they really treat women poorly, and so do we. I mean, we
still have not ordained a woman in the Roman Catholic Church, which is kinds
weird, I think. And, also, with racial problems, we’ve had difficulties, as everyone
else has had too, and, with regard to economic privilege, well, we all like to have
a dollar in our pockets, you know? And that’s the problem. If those are the
things that really run our lives, then we are in real trouble. So, the idea is the
gospel [is one?] -- when Gregory the Great first, in Rome, was trying to send
missionaries to England, by the way, [who were my?] ancestors -- at that time,
my ancestors -- not like the Maya. The Maya were building huge pyramids at
that time, in that particular century, which was, like, the end of the sixth and the
beginning of the seventh century. [00:16:00] He was sending missionaries there,
and he said, “Don’t you dare transfer what is Roman culture there. They have
their own culture. Honor that culture, but take the gospel and put it into that
culture, so, then, the culture will lose its sexism, its racism, and its economic
privilege.” And we’re all called by Paul, I think, in his letter [as though?] -- First
Letter to the Corinthians, for instance, tells us that the real human being -- human
being Adam, which is not a individual at all. He’s the whole human race. “We
don’t know how to be human,” he says. It’s Jesus Christ who shows us how to
be human, ’cause -- why? ’Cause he’s totally related to God and totally related
to one of us. So, the idea was, coming out of the council, the Second Vatican
Council, was to help people actually become totally human, to understand that
[insertion?] into Christ at baptism, for instance, for the Catholics, is not a
separation from the rest of the world, but it’s the way Christ relates to the rest of

11

�the world -- [00:17:00] with total justice, total love, and total compassion. So, I
mean, this is the way our office was being organized. We were taking people
from different communities, ethnic communities. We had to understand how this
was going to work out in a whole archdiocese of Chicago sort of way. And so, by
the time I got into the office, Leo went to Panama to found basic Christian
community there, transformed all of Latin America with that, and we were doing
the same thing in Chicago with these small meetings -JJ:

It spread to other areas in Latin America?

DH:

Right. To get people involved in what was life, not so much -- they didn’t have to
be involved so much in the [sacristy?] of the churches. That wasn’t what our
interest was, but to get people to really transform the whole community in which
they were living. In other words, to be present to that community. Whether they
were young, whether they were old, whether they were men, whether they were
women, this is what they had to really be involved in. [00:18:00] So, we tried to
base their theology on that, so that wouldn’t be a religion-based theology. In
other words, go back to the past. Cling to the columns of the fifteenth and
sixteenth centuries, and then you would be fine. No, it was an item of how do we
create a church now, today, that’s -- with people of faith who are not afraid of the
future and who will actually form their lives? All of these things have to work in
the circumstances of people’s lives. By the time I took over that office, we
already had in process -- we had people meeting on a Monday night and talking
about scripture, and theology, and pastoral ways of acting with other people in
the community. How do we get people to become what they’re supposed to

12

�become in the world? How do we get them to live their marriages totally,
completely, with total love shared between two people, raising their [00:19:00]
family with great appreciation and hope for their children, making sure that all
their children are well educated and have an opportunity to do something with
their lives in the future, not afraid of taking a step into that future, who will not
lose, maybe, their whole Latino culture and language, but will also learn the
languages that they need here? You know, people have to be bilingual, actually,
here, and they are. The only ones that aren’t bilingual are the gringos, you
know? But the Latinos certainly are. You know, even the Mexican people in my
classes today are all people who are totally bilingual, and they have their kids on
the street who are becoming -- they’re not so much of the Latino culture. They’re
more of the McDonald culture, you know? “Let’s go get a Big Mac.” That sort of
thing. But the people are changing all the time, and they’re in multiethnic
settings. So, in other words, the church cannot be a [00:20:00] one-ethnicity sort
of reality. It’s got to be a reality that’s going to offer itself to make the changes
necessary for people today to tomorrow. This is what it has to be. And so, this is
pretty much what we were working on. Course, other people had other
approaches to that. José, you had the groups of young people on Division Street
and North Avenue that were affecting the young people, and getting them
together, and making them talk to one another. [As yet?], when you were there,
the drug problem did not really hit everybody. There was some heroin in place,
but crack and the other stuff, cocaine, the shoot-ups that people had to go
through with sharing needles and bringing AIDS into their family and themselves,

13

�all those things did not exist yet. That didn’t happen until after I left in ’68. That
pretty much was just [00:21:00] beginning at that time. It was very disturbing and
very horrible, what happened to the communities after that, but that’s where the
world is today, and how do we affect that kind of world? That’s another problem.
But, at that particular time, we did not have that particular difficulty. I’m sorry.
JJ:

Going back to Jesús Rodríguez and the --

DH:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

JJ:

-- Second Vatican Council -- so, you were --

DH:

Oh, yeah.

JJ:

-- talking about that during that time. It was that period.

DH:

Oh, yeah.

JJ:

So, how did that impact him? [I mean, what did he say?]?

DH:

Well, José --

JJ:

What was his role? What was his role in the church?

DH:

His role in the church was actually -- everybody wanted to be like him, like Jesús,
like Chuy, because Chuy was one great, great speaker. He could move an
audience, you know. Talk about somebody that [was able to?] move a mountain
from one place to another and throw it into the ocean, like Jesus says in that
[pretty good parable?]. That’s what Jesús, Chuy, could do. [00:22:00]
Tremendous preacher at the Cursillos. He taught me how to preach. He taught
me how to do everything, actually. I (inaudible) how to use the language. It was
just absolutely spectacular. [Juan Cierro?] is another one. They were really
great people, and you had others that had other skills, of course, like Juan Sosa

14

�had a great skill for getting people to talk to each other, and Calvino (inaudible),
who had a sense of -- still has today a sense of service for people that’s
absolutely excellent. José Valentín, who [they all?] accused of being [council
went crazy?], he -- but he was the guy that -- he, with Julio Vides, eventually
organized the youth groups around baseball, really good baseball. They had
great leagues going on here.
JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

[José?]. All those things ran -- we ran retreats in Cursillos and everything else.
Jesús was the master preacher at the Cursillo, and, besides that, when Leo went
to [00:23:00] Panama, we let Jesús go a couple of times over summer when we
weren’t doing any Cursillos. He would go there and talk to the people there. Of
course, when they listened to him speak in Panama, they said, “Oh, my God.
We want to be like him,” you know? And this was a great thing. It was like the
nuns that went to Panama too. We had three Maryknoll nuns that went there,
and all the women wanted to be like the nuns ’cause they were absolutely -- I
mean, they were absolutely wonderful with people, and all the guys wanted their
wives to be like the nuns too, you know? ’Cause they were just so open, and
alive, and filled with hope, and this is the thing that I think we really have to
remember. No matter where you are in a parish or in a parish setting for a
church, you’re not trying to get people to hang out in the sacristy, or in the
building, or -- that’s not what you’re doing. Eucharist is something for us that is
meant to send people out the door. The most important thing in the church is the
exit [00:24:00] sign, you know? You’re supposed to be able to go out the door

15

�and go do something. If you’re not gonna do something, why are you here?
Don’t come in here and tell me that you’re here because God’s gonna give you
something. God doesn’t give us a lot of stuff. God’s already given us the gift of
life, and our job is to turn it into the task of grace. We’re supposed to go out and
share it with the people around us. So, I think this sort of thing -- Jesús got that - Chuy Rodríguez, for instance, got that idea. He also absorbed other people
into his group. Like, Chuy García was a Mexican kid. He came in to eventually
end up in Panama, eventually got exiled by the government at that time back to
Mexico, and I don’t know where he ended up. I don’t know where he is. We
never saw him again, but I know he was safe, but that’s not the point. Why did
they do this? Because they were against us at that particular time in Panama.
Panama became a conflictive place, but that was normal, you know. You
expected [00:25:00] that to happen.
JJ:

I mean, what was going on in Panama? I mean, [I don’t?] --

DH:

Well, eventually, in Panama, in -- I went there in 1968. About a little while after I
got there, they had elections, and the president that won was eventually -- they
had a coup against him. Arnulfo Arias was the president at that time, and he was
elected, and then they kicked his butt out of there, and he was a guy that had
really transformed Panama. He developed a social security system, a system of
hospitals for social security. He developed labor unions. He had developed [at?]
different times [when he was?] president, and, every time he was president,
someone threw him out. The army came in and threw him out. So, they threw
him out on October 12, 1968, and we, in our communities in San Miguelito in

16

�Panama -- our people organized and did a march, and we eventually told the -they [already had?] machine guns in the street against us, [00:26:00] but they did
not kill us. They let us go where we were going. We were going from one parish
at that time, which was [Cristo El Redentor?], to Cristo Hijo del Hombre. It was at
the other end of the community. We’re just gonna march there, and we were
gonna do that, and we would sing the national anthem of Panama, and that was
the end of it. But they said, “Well, what do you want?” Torrijos, who was the guy
in charge at that particular moment -- they called Leo and said, “What do you
guys want? What do you think this is? You have no right to do this.” He said,
“Oh, yes, we do. We’re not doing it. The people are doing it,” you know, and
people were ready to do it. This was after several years of real organization. We
had several parishes, and people were really organized to do (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible).
JJ:

When you started, there were no parishes, or --?

DH:

Well, we went there. There were no -- there was one big parish called San
Miguelito, but people were just coming into the area at that time. That was one
thing. As soon as people come into an area, you have to be there, and that’s
what we learned in Panama. You had to be there right away. I eventually ended
up in Panama because [00:27:00] I couldn’t work with Cody, but before that -Cardinal Cody -- but I worked with [Meyer?] really well here while we were
organizing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

JJ:

Why couldn’t you work with Cody?

DH:

Pardon?

17

�JJ:

Why couldn’t you work with Cody?

DH:

Well, he just never accepted what we were doing. He was so intent on doing
what the mayor wanted, who was one of the Daleys, [a father for?] Richard Daley
-- Richard J. Daley at that time. It was not the M. Daley of the present, but he -for instance, the Puerto Rican -- the whole business of the riots that happened
here 40 years ago -- a little bit more than 40 years now. Those riots were really
partially provoked by the police, and the response by the young people’s
community especially was terrific. I was so proud of --

JJ:

It was terrific, you said?

DH:

Oh, I thought it was terrific, and, I mean, I was on top of a police car on Division
Street, and they were gonna burn the [00:28:00] police car, and I said, “Don’t do
it ’cause the guys that are egging you on are cops.” I knew the cops from
Monroe Street District when I was at St. Pat’s. And they burned the car anyway,
of course. Of course, I jumped off the damn car. But then, all the police were in
the gangways in the neighborhood on Division Street. They came out. They’d
beat up everybody on the street, you know, and we were on the street for three
days, [the Hermanos en la Familia de Dios?], which was the group of people who
were organizing for lay ministry in the church. Caballeros de San Juan were not
always that. They were pretty much a community organization at that time. But
the Hermanos, they were saying, “We want to learn something about our
religion.” And so, they learned stuff on their religion through dialogue and
discussion, and that’s the way they taught it to the people in their parishes. And
then, at the end of each series of discussions, they would have a Cursillo, which

18

�was a retreat. Sort of tied things together. And that’s the way things were
organized out of the [00:29:00] office, and I would meet with them on Monday
night. We would have discussion on scripture or whatever. On Wednesday
night, we’d go visit a particular parish area, and on Thursday or Friday following
that Wednesday, I would go and visit the pastor there, and I would say to the
pastor -- this was during Meyer’s time. Cody sort of put an end to this, and that’s
why I couldn’t work with him, because we had to keep organizing people.
JJ:

So, he put an end to the organizing, or --?

DH:

What he did wasn’t in accord with what we were doing, going in and visiting the
pastors afterward. Meyer backed me with the pastors, but Meyer died of a tumor
in the brain. So, when he died, Cody came in. It was over, pretty much, but,
when he was there, he really supported everything we were doing, and I would
go in and talk to the pastor. I said, “You know, you have a lot of [Latinos here.”
Pastor said?], “Well, we don’t have any Latinos here.” “Oh, really? Well, this is a
list --”

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

Yeah, pastors. Some of the pastors would say that.

JJ:

Some of the pastors.

DH:

I would say, “Well, this is a list of the people in your parish who are Latinos,
[00:30:00] and they are going to have a Spanish Mass after July, when a new
priest will come in here and be your associate, and he will do a Spanish Mass,
and he knows a lot about the culture because we’re training him now.” We
trained him, usually, at Dominican University for the language, and we had

19

�people coming in from Latin America and from Puerto Rico, from all over, to
really train them culturally [to understand that?] -JJ:

Who paid for these people to --

DH:

Oh, the archdiocese.

JJ:

[Oh, they did?]?

DH:

Catholic Charities.

JJ:

Oh, [they did pay?]?

DH:

Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah.

JJ:

For them to come from Puerto Rico and Latin America?

DH:

Oh, yes. Definitely. Yeah. All kinds of wonderful people came in, and I had
them coming in all the time.

JJ:

So, the archdiocese was supporting it, but there was some resistance?

DH:

Right. Well, there was probably some resistance, and, when Cody came in, he
just stopped it all. But what was really bad was the fact that he stopped this
business of really changing the parish structure so that the pastor would have to
recognize [people that were?] -- we would invite the -- I wasn’t abusive to the
pastors. I would just say that, “You know, you are welcome [00:31:00] [in any of?
these homes. Next Tuesday night, one of the Hermanos is gonna be there, and
they’re gonna have a discussion on scripture and on what it is to be a parish so
they can support the parish and be with you in the parish, and you’re welcome to
go to that home and have a cup of tea with them, (Spanish) [00:31:18].” We
said, “You can do that if you want to, so go and do this, you know. You’re
welcome to do it.” At the same time, there’s all kinds of other things happening in

20

�the community, I think. You had your guys, the Young Lords. They were
organizing, and they were doing all kinds of wonderful -- I think they were doing
wonderful things, and -JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

No, I think so because they were getting young people organized. We had
another aspect of that. [We’re out on the?] baseball games and the retreats that
we had at [Liberty Bell?]. We had a whole series. We had Liberty Bell retreats
every single summer.

JJ:

[Who was?] (inaudible)?

DH:

There was a center there that we could use. It was not a [00:32:00] luxurious
place, but it was a good place, and we had room for people, and we would have - Las Hijas de María would go out, and then we would have the kids go out, the
young boys go out, the guys go out for the different levels of baseball.
Everybody would have a retreat every single summer, and we would run a
couple of meetings for older people out there.

JJ:

You mean each group, each parish?

DH:

They would come from the parishes, but the kids were --

JJ:

[And the councils?] (inaudible) --

DH:

The kids were organized as baseball, so they crossed parish lines ’cause they
built their teams, you know. They wanted people who could hit and people who
could pitch. That’s what they wanted. So, they would have cross-parish stuff,
and, in a certain sense, what we were doing was -- we weren’t building just the
parishes. We were building the archdiocese of Chicago with regard to Latinos,

21

�and this is what we wanted to do. We wanted to be aware of one another. So,
this was kind of [00:33:00] important, really important at that time. That was
pretty much stopped when Cody came in. And so, people were struggling with
stuff, and I was just disappointed and discouraged, and I decided, well, maybe I
can do some good in Panama, so I asked Leo if they needed something, and he
said, “Oh, yeah. We need somebody for scripture and for formation here, and
you can also be in charge of one of the parishes. That would be fine. You know,
we need somebody.” So, he asked for me, and I asked to go, so that was the
way it was. But it was good, and things changed then.
JJ:

You mentioned there was a difference between the Caballeros [as an?]
organization and the Hermanos.

DH:

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

Well, some of the members of the Caballeros came in. You know, people like
[Antonio Villalobos?], who was from council number eight. We had people like -well, you had other people from other [ones of?] the councils would come in, and
they would say, “You know, [00:34:00] our wives go to church, but we don’t know
anything about our religion. What is it all about? Can we talk about that?” This
was way early, when Leo was still in charge of the office --

JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

-- before he went to Panama in 1963. He left for Panama in 1963. He got there
in February of 1963, but he was here from nineteen fifty-- like, two, three, four,
until 1962 and pretty much into 1963. So, at that time, you know, this is where

22

�they came. The Caballeros de San Juan would come down for meetings, and
some of these guys took Leo aside, said, “We need some help.” So, people like
[Juan Sierra?] helped with that. So did Chuy Rodríguez, tremendously so, and,
you know, all these people who were involved in the Hermanos Cheos from
Puerto Rico, they were the heart of the whole matter. The Hermanos Cheos
were one of the finest groups in all of Puerto Rico. They really saved the islands
-- for whatever’s left of the Catholic Church there, [00:35:00] they’re the ones that
saved it. [They were?] -JJ:

I heard about them. So, what were they? I mean --

DH:

The Hermanos Cheos?

JJ:

Yeah, [I’ve heard about them?].

DH:

Well, they were a group of guys, lay people. When the priest sort of left and went
back to Spain -- a lot of them left. They went back to Spain, where they came
from, and there weren’t that many Puerto Rican priests around. And so, these
guys got together and said, “We have to save this island for our culture, and our
Puerto Rican heritage, and our church, our religion, and all the [stuff?] that we
are,” because what happened was the United States government, the president
at that time, sent all kinds of missionaries from the Protestant groups into Puerto
Rico to break up the culture and the community and take away what people were
as Catholics. They didn’t want people to be Catholic. So, they sent that here.
[Actually what happened?]. This was in the nineteenth century when the --

JJ:

These were sent from --

DH:

-- war with Spain was over, and that’s what happened.

23

�JJ:

Sent from the United States after the war against Spain?

DH:

After the war with Spain, yeah.

JJ:

[00:36:00] (inaudible).

DH:

After the war with Spain, where they took over the island. And so, Puerto Rico’s
very small. You know, it’s built like an ice cream cone, actually. It’s got a very
small base and a very large top, and Aibonito’s at the very top of it, but that’s
[what it is?], you know, and it’s very small, but it’s the gate to the Antilles. It’s the
gate of everything. It’s out there, in the Atlantic Ocean, in the Caribbean, and it’s
really -- that’s why the United States wanted [the thing?], and they put their naval
bases there and everything. So, it was really kind of an important island for the
United States, but it was also important for the people that lived there, and these
guys were trying to save what was their faith and their religion. So, people like
Jesús Rodríguez and Juan Sierra descended from that group that we call the
Hermanos Cheos. They went through the island, you know, praying the rosary,
and doing meditations on the rosary, and all these kinds of stuff, really invoking
Mary more [00:37:00] than anything else, and they went from place to place,
town to town. They established things, like people have the great visits of
Christmastime, when they go from town to town with music.

JJ:

Las Parrandas.

DJ:

Las Parrandas, yeah. Those are absolutely marvelous things from the culture,
and it’s much richer than just saying they’re Catholic. It’s a whole cultural reality
that is so beautiful and so wonderful, and watching people do it, it’s just
spectacular. It’s just like -- or waking up on the beach in the Fiesta of San Juan

24

�or on Tres Reyes, [Para los Reyes?]. All that stuff is really cultural, and it may
have come from the Spaniards, but it’s more than just Spanish. It’s become a
cultural inheritance, and this is where people are.
JJ:

And so, when the development of the Caballeros --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

Where did the idea come from? I see a little bit came from [00:38:00]
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

DH:

It came, pretty much, from Saul Alinsky’s group.

JJ:

Oh, can you explain that?

DH:

Pretty much from that. In other words, you have to organize, and you have to
develop leadership. In other words, there is always an outside agitator. So, Leo
was kind of like the outside agitator, you know, and so was Nick von Hoffman.
So was Lester Hunt. But, eventually, the leadership arose in the Puerto Rican
community with Juan Sosa, with Calvino (inaudible), with Cesar Rivera, all those
people who took on leadership in the different councils.

JJ:

[How?] --

DH:

I think there eventually were 13 councils.

JJ:

So, did the Cardinal’s Committee reach out to them, or did they reach out?

DH:

Right -- no. Well, both. Both ways. It was a two-way street, and people had
their meetings in their own area. They had to have a chaplain with them. [If
they?] had a chaplain, they were very much organized on the basis of the parish
in which they were living. Pretty much that. And so --

JJ:

They had to have a --

25

�DH:

[00:39:00] Yeah.

JJ:

-- chaplain to --

DH:

Right.

JJ:

-- be accepted.

DH:

Right. Right.

JJ:

I mean --

DH:

They were accepted in the parish, yeah.

JJ:

They were accepted [in the parish?].

DH:

Oh, definitely, yeah. But the whole business of lay ministry developed out of
these guys.

JJ:

[Did the?] (inaudible)?

DH:

Well, eventually, the diaconate came out of it. There were a lot of guys ready for
the diaconate when I left for Panama. I asked Cody --

JJ:

What does that mean?

DH:

-- if I could have those guys ordained.

JJ:

I don’t understand that. What does that mean? How does that --?

DH:

Oh, okay. Sure. Yeah. Well, lay ministry is one thing. That means laypeople -men, women -- they are in charge of different ministries in a parish, different
ways of approaching people, working with them, helping them, being a blessing
for them, taking care of the catechesis -- the catechetics that you have to teach
children for their participation in sacraments or in life of the parish, the
organization of young people. There should be some adults involved in that, as
well as the young people organizing things themselves. So, you have all these

26

�different ministries that appear. When I was at [00:40:00] Mercy, for instance, for
20 years after I came back from Panama, we developed -- there must be 3,000
ministers there of different levels of doing things, and working with life, and doing
retreats, and, by the time I was three years in the parish, I never gave a retreat at
Our Lady of Mercy, but the people gave the retreats. I would just give an
introduction to the retreat, and they were in charge of the whole thing. They did
all the training for baptism for parishes -- for families. They trained the couples
who were -- so that they could train their children for first Communions. The
confirmation was built out of not so much the eighth grade, but out of going into
high school and saying, “I want this particular reality because it’s the end of my
baptismal process, and I want to be like my parents. I want to be what they are.
I want to be like what my godparents are. I want to be like that.” So, okay. Fine,
kid. Then, sign up. So, we began with [00:41:00] 50 people, 50 kids from high
school. We ended up, now, with 250 there every year, 250 kids who become
confirmed and who have to choose a ministry once they are confirmed. They
have a two-year course with three courses every year. First course is on
Saturdays at one o’clock in the afternoon, maybe. I’m not sure when they’re
doing it now. I think that’s when they do it. I’m out of the parish, so I don’t know.
And then, the second year of the course is for kids that are, like, 16, who can
work on weekends, so they have a Friday night class. It’s ’cause they can work
on the weekend to help their family a little bit. That’s the second year. Three
courses that year as well. So, it’s a really serious project, and it really takes
account into what people are and what they want to do in their life. You know,

27

�where they want to go, how they want to -- we would want them to stay in school,
for instance. We would want them to work in the community with other young
people, really share things with them. [00:42:00] That’s what we would want.
That’s what Mercy -- but this is pretty basically the way we approached things in
Panama and basically the way we approached things out of the Cardinal’s
Committee [when we were?] just beginning the organization. Everything had to
be done with conscious effort to put people in charge. In other words, I’m not
gonna absorb everything. Now, Saul Alinsky did the same thing. In the
organization of communities, you don’t absorb everything. You hand it over to a
leader, somebody who’s from the community itself, and they will organize their
own leadership as well. Same thing was true with pastoral work. How do you
get people actually to be involved? Well, you develop them as people who can
organize their own group, their own team, in order to do a particular job. This is
what you try to do. So, I’m sorry. I’m, maybe, meandering a bit.
JJ:

No, no, I think that’s exactly what we’re [looking for?].

DH:

But that’s pretty much where it is, I think. [00:43:00] So --

JJ:

So, it was -- because we called it self-determination, but --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- [by the?] Young Lords.

DH:

Yeah, sure.

JJ:

But, it sounds -- I mean, it’s similar --

DH:

It’s pretty much the same.

JJ:

It’s pretty much the same?

28

�DH:

Oh, yeah.

JJ:

We got a lot of ideas --

DH:

Sure.

JJ:

-- from the Caballeros de San Juan.

DH:

I’m sure you did. Everything crosses over.

JJ:

Right. Right.

DH:

It all crosses over.

JJ:

So, okay. So, you were creating the leadership, and this is how the whole
movement --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- of the Caballeros was beginning to form.

DH:

That’s right.

JJ:

I know that my mother gave catechism classes --

DH:

Sure.

JJ:

-- in her home (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

DH:

I know, yeah.

JJ:

-- and I’m trying to -- so, this is where that fits in. I mean --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- it’s connected to --

DH:

Oh, yeah.

JJ:

-- what the Caballeros were doing --

DH:

There was a lot of connection.

JJ:

-- at that time.

29

�DH:

Yeah, all that stuff.

JJ:

And so, what about the retreats? I mean, how -- (inaudible) Wisconsin. What
was that about?

DH:

I don’t know much about that.

JJ:

You don’t know too much about that?

DH:

No.

JJ:

Okay.

DH:

[00:44:00] By the time I was there, we were running the Cursillos right there in
the 13th and Wabash address. [In other words?], there were some people that
were still being drawn out by the Claretians to go to Indiana (inaudible)
[negative?] at that time with --

JJ:

The [De Colores movement?] or --?

DH:

Well, De Colores was us.

JJ:

Oh, that was you.

DH:

That was the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking. But what they did
there -- they moved these people out. They were not quite as attuned to what
was going on in Vatican II, and [Peter?] was pretty much against what we were
doing. They thought that everything should come through the Claretians, you
know? But it wasn’t sufficient at that time. Claretians had done a great job --

JJ:

[The Claretians is a?] --

DH:

-- in the previous --

JJ:

-- [priest?]?

30

�DH:

Oh, yeah. (inaudible) priest. Yeah. Peter [Rodríguez?] was a wonderful guy,
actually, and he eventually -- when I came back from Panama, he never had a
Lenten retreat without inviting me to do the talks. So, he was a good friend, then,
after that, but, at the [00:45:00] time, he called me a communist.

JJ:

Okay. You were called a communist?

DH:

[Meaning the?] organization. Yeah, right. Called me a communist. He called
Jorge Prieto too.

JJ:

So, I don’t feel alone in that.

DH:

Wonderful doctor [from the?] Mexican community, was a great friend of Puerto
Ricans too. Jorge Prieto. Jorge Prieto’s a wonderful man.

JJ:

[Oh, Dr. Jorge Prieto?].

DH:

Great human being. Yeah. And so, he founded the clinics for the county
hospital, and the lady that was my -- [Carmen Mendoza?], who was my secretary
and Leo’s secretary, she left the office when I was leaving the office, and went
and organized for the union for the city, and also helped -- she eventually helped
Jorge Prieto to start the clinics for the Cook County hospital, actually. But Jorge
was a great friend. When Jorge and I went to California to accompany Cesar
Chavez’s march from Delano, California to Sacramento, well, some of the
Hermanos went with us, and --

JJ:

[00:46:00] [That’s very?] --

DH:

-- some Protestant minsters went with us.

JJ:

I didn’t know that the Hermanos from Chicago --

DH:

Right.

31

�JJ:

-- went to Delano --

DH:

Went there as well, yeah.

JJ:

-- with Cesar Chavez.

DH:

And we all went together, and we accompanied all -- the whole march was all
Holy Week, actually, that they did this in, so I was not in a parish, so I could do
this on Holy Week. So, even on Friday, I named every person that was in the
group there, the marchers, actually, themselves, the people -- the Campesinos -to really do a meditation on each of the Stations of the Cross. So, we did it as we
were going towards Sacramento on Good Friday. It was a tremendous
experience for people, and, you know, somebody would read this passage from
the text, and then they would give their own meditation based on what their life
as Campesinos [was all about?], as grape pickers or as lettuce pickers, whatever
they were doing. It was a tremendous opportunity. So, these people also got an
opportunity to see the way [00:47:00] other people were acting, and moving, and
doing things that were significant on a faith level. Some of the people were not
even Catholic, but they were -- on a faith level, they were the same as everybody
else was. It was a good thing for people to see, I thought.

JJ:

Now, you had -- Jesus Rodríguez was also from council number three.

DH:

Pardon?

JJ:

(Spanish) [00:47:22].

DH:

Three. Yeah. Right.

JJ:

Okay. So, were you at all familiar with that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

32

�DH:

Oh, yeah. Sure. I used to go there all the time. A lot of people, I baptized there.
When Kathrein wasn’t there, they would invite me to come in and baptize. My
dad would always go with me too. My father would always go. Lot of the people
from the different councils would come into my mom and dad’s apartment. They
would play dominoes, right? There’s a great game. Capicúa (inaudible). It was
hilarious, you know? But, beside that, they would wait for my mother’s lemon
cream pie because my mom made great pies. She made this huge lemon
merengue or lemon cream pie.

JJ:

I didn’t get your mom’s name.

DH:

Oh, yeah.

JJ:

[00:48:00] What was your mom’s name?

DH:

Virginia. Virginia, yeah.

JJ:

Virginia. And your father?

DH:

My dad was Everett.

JJ:

Everett, okay.

DH:

[It was a name from?] southern Illinois.

JJ:

Any brothers and sisters?

DH:

I had one brother, Dennis, yeah, but he was already married and off (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible).

JJ:

But she made great cream pies, you said?

DH:

Oh, yeah. She had great pies, and my dad would pour coffee, you know? My
dad would pour the coffee, and my -- my dad died in 1968, while I was doing a
Cursillo, one of my last Cursillos before I was leaving for Panama, and it was two

33

�in the morning when they called me that my dad had died. Died of a heart attack.
But, you know, he was very old, so -- he died at the age of 64. My mother did not
die until 92, but she knew all the people in the community. When my dad died,
as a matter of fact, there were four buses that came from Waukegan. Puerto
Ricans.
JJ:

Oh, wow. (inaudible).

DH:

They were [lined?] around (inaudible) Funeral Home on 53rd and Kedzie for three
blocks [00:49:00] ’cause they all knew my dad. They all knew my father.

JJ:

(inaudible) Puerto Ricans in Waukegan?

DH:

Oh, yeah. From everywhere in the city, actually.

JJ:

From everywhere in the city.

DH:

All the councils. Everybody was there. Everybody came. It was like two-night
wake. It was just tremendous. It was really a great tribute to my dad, great
tribute to the community that we worked in, actually, we loved very much. This
Puerto Rican community was -- they taught me everything I know. (Spanish)
[00:49:27]. That’s what they told me.

JJ:

(inaudible).

DH:

(Spanish) [00:49:30]. I didn’t know anything. I was green. I was green. They
were trying to tell me that, and I recognized that fact, you know. I really was
green, and I learned from them not only a way into that particular culture but into
the Mexican culture, and, when I came back from Panama, I went into a parish
eventually, Our Lady of Mercy, that had 60 countries represented and 46
languages. That was Our Lady of Mercy, [00:50:00] Albany Park. So, this is the

34

�way the city is, you know? And so, you have to be very sensitive to what you’re
working with and who’s coming in your door.
JJ:

Now, was Saul Alinsky hired? How does he [figure in?]?

DH:

That group was hired by Catholic Charities to help organize --

JJ:

The Saul Alinsky group?

DH:

-- at the beginning. Yeah, that was, like, way back in the ’50s.

JJ:

Yeah, this was in the --

DH:

And then, eventually, they --

JJ:

And they were hired to do that.

DH:

We didn’t need them anymore. Once the Caballeros were organized, we didn’t
need them very much anymore, so they left, of course.

JJ:

So, they were hired to help --

DH:

Right.

JJ:

-- organize the Caballeros.

DH:

[That’s what they were?].

JJ:

Actually, so the Caballeros --

DH:

Not the Hermanos.

JJ:

Not the Hermanos.

DH:

No, the Hermanos were organized within the Caballeros --

JJ:

On their own.

DH:

-- for the different parishes.

JJ:

On their own, but they --

DH:

Yeah. They --

35

�JJ:

But the Caballeros were definitely organized by the --

DH:

By --

JJ:

-- Saul Alinsky --

DH:

With Saul Alinsky’s help.

JJ:

With Saul Alinsky’s help.

DH:

Though, they were not recognized by Saul Alinsky.

JJ:

They weren’t? Okay.

DH:

Saul never organizes anybody. It’s the leadership that’s formed that organizes
the people. So, it was Juan Sosa and --

JJ:

So, how did --

DH:

-- [00:51:00] Calvino (inaudible). Those people.

JJ:

So, how did that form? I mean, did he start meeting with some of the leaders?

DH:

Well, yeah. I’m sure they did, yeah. Leo said, “I want you to meet with this
particular group of people.” And so, he met with them, and then they would just
sort of say, “Well, okay. Fine.” “Now, where are you guys living? What’s your
story? [Where do you want to eat?]? Where do you want to be? How are you
gonna get your people involved? What are you gonna go?” You know? Saul
Alinsky always asked crazy questions. There’s a great interview after his death.
Studs Terkel ran an interview after his death, which is marvelous. It’s Saul
asking somebody, “Do you live in this building?” And the guy said, “Yeah, where
else am I gonna live?” He said, “Well, why do you live here? Do you have rats?”
“Of course we have rats.” “Well, do you have any locks on the windows?” “No,
there’s no locks on the windows. What are you talking about?” “Why are you

36

�living in here?” “Well, because where else am I gonna live? [I got no other
place?].” And then, Saul would say to the guy, “Yeah, but [anybody else?] live
with you?” “Oh, yeah. Why?” “Well, do you pay rent to live here?” “Yeah.” He
says, “Of course. I don’t pay rent, they’ll kick my butt out of here.” He said,
“Yeah, but if nobody pays rent?” [00:52:00] And that was the question. “Nobody
pays rent. You put it all in some kind of an [grow?] fund, you know, and then we
make this guy fix the damn building. That’s what we’ll do.” That’s organizing.
So, that’s what you do with people when -- and you do the same thing with the
church. People come in and tell you that, well, their wife goes to Mass, but they
have to reason to go to Mass. Well, let’s see what Eucharist really is. Let’s see
what you think it is, first of all, and then we’re gonna -- we ask questions. I don’t
think you can go into a parish or into a people and ever tell them answers before
they ask any questions, but you have to ask questions. You have to find out
where they are first. If you can find out where they are, then you have to go with
them where they are, and you grow together with them. Okay? Spirituality is
nothing if it’s not solidarity. Solidarity is something very special. Solidarity
means that you are willing to [00:53:00] be with this particular group or person for
the rest of your life, actually. You’re willing to give yourself away to them. You’re
willing to change the gift of your life into the task of what grace is. [You really
need to do this?]. In Pauline theology, what Paul writes in his letters, he tells us
that the nature of God is not gathering. The nature of God is giving away, that
God always empties God’s self. Kenosis is the word he uses in Greek, and God
gives God’s self away, but, besides that, that’s why we can be the image of God.

37

�If we give ourselves away to the people we love and truly care about, then we
are what we’re supposed to be. We are human. If we relate to the people, in
other words. That’s what relationship’s all about. It’s the power to give yourself
away to someone else. That’s really what it’s all about. So, if you don’t
understand that, you’re never gonna become human, you know? So, that’s just
the way it is.
JJ:

So, it’s [00:54:00] not being individual.

DH:

Yeah. No.

JJ:

Individualist, I mean.

DH:

You have to be a person who gives one’s self away within the community and to
the people you care about. That’s, I think, the way it’s supposed to be. But that’s
what you do when you’re working with the Hermanos. You sort of teach them
how to do that. That’s what you do when you do a retreat or a Cursillo. You try
to help them to see how that’s the most important thing in their life.

JJ:

So, there’s a retreat. There’s a Cursillo. It’s not the same thing?

DH:

No. Retreats can be on any subject, but a Cursillo is a very definite thing. Here,
in Chicago, it was how do you get to be a Latino who is a person of faith? In
other words, how do you understand sacraments in the right way? How do you
understand church in the right way? It’s not a building, and it’s not a group of
people that go to a building. That’s not the church. The only word for church,
Iglesia, [00:55:00] comes from a Greek word that the people that made a
translation of the Hebrew Bible used for only one thing: the group of people
around Moses’s tent, waiting for Moses to say, “Okay, we’re marching towards

38

�freedom today. Let’s go. Let’s go toward the promised land.” So, we’re always
people on the march. We’re never people who have the security of sitting in
some place. We’re the people who look for the opportunity to escape from the
church and go out the door, the exit sign being above us, and we walk out, and
we go change the world. That’s what we’re supposed to be doing. So, I mean,
that’s pretty much what it was all about. And then, in Panama was the Cursillo
de Iniciación Cristiana, [and?] people began a whole different way of looking at
what their religion had been and make it into an opportunity of faith, of building
something out of where they were, and going into a future that they did not know,
and not being afraid of that. That’s pretty much what happened there.
JJ:

I want to ask you what you’re doing [00:56:00] now, but I also want to -- I just
want to try to get a little more description of --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- those first Puerto Rican parades and that community around --

DH:

Oh, yeah.

JJ:

-- Wabash and Holy Name Cathedral.

DH:

Oh, sure. Right. Yeah. The cathedral. When they began the parade, for
instance, it was a matter of bringing in all the different elements of the Caballeros
de San Juan, the Knights of St. John, and all those guys --

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

That’s right, and --

JJ:

It was 1953. That’s what I --

DH:

Right.

39

�JJ:

-- discovered was the date of --

DH:

Was the date of the parade.

JJ:

-- first parade, okay.

DH:

First parade. Right. And then, the second year, they went to St. -- to the parish
on -- oh, where was it? What’s the matter with me? The basilica that’s --

JJ:

The South Side, or is it North Side?

DH:

No, no, it was on --

JJ:

West Side?

DH:

Yeah, it’s right in the middle of -- it’s actually right near the Loop, actually, but it’s
on the West Side.

JJ:

Oh, okay.

DH:

It’s on the West Side.

JJ:

On Madison. On Madison.

DH:

Not on Madison, no.

JJ:

[00:57:00] By the Loop on the West Side.

DH:

Yeah, it’s on the West Side. yeah.

JJ:

[What’s that?]?

DH:

What’s the name of the parish? I know the name of the parish more than I know
my own name, but I can’t [really?] think of it now. The first one began at the
cathedral and did the march, and I’m not sure where it ended up. I was there,
but I can’t remember where --

JJ:

Well, I read that they had a dance at the Chicago Armory. I don’t know if it --

DH:

That’s right, yeah.

40

�JJ:

-- ended up there.

DH:

They did. Yeah.

JJ:

So, did it end up there?

DH:

I think it probably did. I don’t know. I don’t remember that.

JJ:

You think so? But I know I have -- there’s a picture of the cathedral, Holy Name -

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- Cathedral, and there’s a dance at the Chicago Armory also.

DH:

[It was that same year?], yeah. Right. I don’t know where. This stuff confuses
me (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

JJ:

But you said, at that time, there were already Caballeros.

DH:

Oh, yeah. There were different [councils?].

JJ:

And several churches. Do you have any idea where they were at, or --?

DH:

No, I would imagine one of the places would have been St. Michael’s --

JJ:

St. Michael’s.

DH:

-- with Kathrein. I would imagine that would be -- [second one?] would be St.
Joseph’s, who had two Dominican priests.

JJ:

St. Joseph’s by Cabrini Green?

DH:

The other would be -- right. And on the South Side would have been [00:58:00]
63rd Street. That’s where they would have been.

JJ:

And I believe [Spanish Mass?] (inaudible).

DH:

I think it was either four or five councils at that time.

JJ:

There was a movement for Spanish Mass at Holy Name Cathedral.

41

�DH:

Right.

JJ:

I’m asking a little difficult question. I know that the --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

It was St. Michael’s. Some people said that some of the people did not want the
people at the church at first, and so -- at the main chapel, so that was a reason
for using the hall.

DH:

I don’t know.

JJ:

Other people explain it also that they just wanted to be separate --

DH:

Yeah. Yeah.

JJ:

-- at that time, that they felt more comfortable, and that’s why they --

DH:

Well, they had to do a Spanish Mass.

JJ:

Yeah, they -- was there (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

DH:

Sometimes, things started in the basement, but they would eventually end up in
the church.

JJ:

Was there any of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

DH:

I don’t know what provoked that. Kathrein would have been managing that, I
wound imagine, but I’m not sure what happened.

JJ:

[He didn’t?] notice any type of discrimination or anything that --?

DH:

Not that I know of.

JJ:

Okay. All right.

DH:

Not that I know of. The people --

JJ:

I mean, there was discrimination in the city, [I know?].

DH:

People are sometimes -- in [00:59:00] themselves, they’re racist.

42

�JJ:

Well, I don’t mean the church. I mean individuals.

DH:

Yeah, no, as far as the church was concerned, it wasn’t -- it was [thought of?]
how people can be more comfortable in what they’re gonna do.

JJ:

Okay, so it was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

That was pretty much the idea, I think. Yeah, I think that was what they were
thinking of. At the Cardinal’s Committee, all you had were Latinos, which was
great. It was wonderful. It was great.

JJ:

Okay, so the Cardinal’s Committee was definitely --

DH:

Yeah, it was all Latinos.

JJ:

-- all Latinos.

DH:

Actually, the --

JJ:

And it was [opened?] by Cardinal Stritch --

DH:

It began with Cardinal Stritch, went through Meyer, and then, when Meyer died,
Cody came in and pretty much let it go on, but it was a little bit different agenda.

JJ:

What was his reasoning for opening it up?

DH:

He had different ways of looking at life. He didn’t understand the council, that the
theology there was gonna be different now. He didn’t understand that too well,
but Meyer did understand. Meyer was also a scripture scholar, person who
understood scripture very well, and he became a person who was very much
against the [01:00:00] clericalism that, at times, afflicts the church, where the
priests are, like, separate from the people, and would have approached more the
Hélder Câmara way of looking at things. Hélder Câmara, the great bishop of
Brazil, Recife, who took off all the fancy garments, you know, and carried a

43

�wooden cross and a regular suit, and went around the world that way. This sort
of thing was kind of important, I think, for people as they began to look at the
church. What Vatican II did was to bring out the ideas of collegiality. Now, I’m
afraid the Vatican is trying to erase that, but -- which is too bad. I think it’s a
shame, but that -- if you have collegiality, that means everybody’s talking to
everybody, and clericalism says these people that are people that run everything,
supposedly, are -JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

-- the only ones that talk to one another, you know?

JJ:

Everybody in the church is talking to everybody?

DH:

Well, you have [01:01:00] collegiality --

JJ:

Within the church or outside?

DH:

-- [would mean?] everybody’s talking to everybody.

JJ:

Within --

DH:

Collegiality would be that.

JJ:

Within and outside the church?

DH:

Within and outside, right.

JJ:

Yeah. Okay.

DH:

Well, Our Lady of Mercy -- when I was there, we eventually had the group there
found a neighborhood organization. Well, the one meeting that I was there for
before I moved out of Our Lady of Mercy --

JJ:

Was it at Lady of Mercy?

44

�DH:

At Our Lady of Mercy. It was, like, in -- oh, maybe 1997 or so, I’m sure. I left
there in 2002, but, in the end of the 1990s, we had a big meeting. There must
have been six, seven hundred people in the basement, and there were people
from Islam. There were Jewish people. There were people from all the different
languages that were there. We had at least four or five translations going on with
earphones for people so that everybody would be understood. This was
[01:02:00] the people that were in that neighborhood. That was in the basement
of Our Lady of Mercy Church, in their hall. You know, this was kind of important,
that you look at the church as something that is much more than one particular
group. I think there are three things that the church has to understand no matter
who they’re working with. First of all, they’re not the reign of God. The church is
not the reign of God. It’s just a group that’s supposed to live the norms of the
reign of God, justice, love, and compassion, ahead of time because we’re not
there yet. A better world doesn’t exist yet. Every generation has to look to
create a better world. Every generation is gonna have to do that. Second thing
is we’re one, but we’re many. One faith, one baptism, one Eucharist, and all that,
but we still have different ways of celebrating and different ways of thinking. At
Our Lady of Mercy now, for instance, every single Mass has its own choir
because each Mass is different, although each Mass is the same. [01:03:00] So,
it’s a tension. It creates tension in the community, but that’s good tension and
not bad tension. Third thing is we are -- this church, we are also an institution. In
other words, we have a pope, and bishops, and all people that are supposed to
be the organizers, and then we have the people who are at the door, who are

45

�new people, sometimes, and they have something to offer, and, if these people
are not accepted to offer what they have to offer, the trouble is that, the danger is
that the institution would become [a cadaver?], and you don’t want that to
happen, ever. That make sense? I think, pretty much, those are the principles
that ran the organizations of the Knights of St. John, the Caballeros de San Juan,
the Hermanos en la Familia de Dios, the parishes at that time in Chicago, the
way in which, I think, the Young Lords tried to support one another and act in the
world ’cause they had to confront what was a white, powerful, money-possessing
[01:04:00] reality in the city, you know, that they had to really confront and to live
with, or against, or over. They had to be there, and they had to get something for
what was the community that was being left out. There was an interesting
passage that comes up in Deuteronomy all the time that the king has only one
job. In other words, a leader has only one job. It’s to make sure that these
people have a job, food, and roofs over their head. Who are they? Widows,
orphans, and the strangers in the land. In other words, they’re supposed to look
out for those who are on the edges. If they take care of the people that are on
the edges -- which is something we don’t seem to understand in this country
anymore, but if they take care of people on the edges, then everybody in the
middle is okay. Think about it. You know, when you think about it, it’s true, but
we don’t take care of the people on the edges anymore, and there are people in
government and outside of government that would like to eliminate everybody
that’s on the edges. [01:05:00] That’s not fair.

46

�JJ:

So, how did you see the whole thing in Lincoln Park, where a lot of the -- after the
community organized.

DH:

Yeah. Well --

JJ:

The Caballeros and [Damas?] organized, and --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

And then, they were displaced. I mean, how did you see that?

DH:

I think, in Lincoln Park and the other park area, like, even --

JJ:

[In other parks?].

DH:

Yeah. Well, everywhere there were Latinos, the thing was to keep them there
and allow them to organize there, help them to better the community and the
neighborhood in which they were living, make it a family-based community, and
they seem to be doing pretty well. I think what damaged everything happened
around ’68, ’69, ’70, when the drug culture began to take over, which is a
horrifying thing, when you have kids becoming ill, you have people sharing
needles. Even some of the greatest families in our community, you had two and
[01:06:00] three children dying of AIDS, and this should never have happened.
Eventually perishing, even though they were married, or they had -- but they had
been sharing needles with people who had the AIDS virus, and, at that time,
there were no antivirals like we have today that are helping people to survive, but
that (inaudible) survive. It was terrifying. It was terrible.

JJ:

And why do you think that happened at that time?

DH:

What? I’m sorry.

JJ:

Why do you think that happened?

47

�DH:

Why do I think that happened? Because, all of a sudden, you know, we had --

JJ:

[I mean?], all of a sudden, that happened.

DH:

We had laws that were -- they were promoting the fact that you could not have
drugs, you could not get drugs, and it was against the law to have them. And so,
people started making money selling them on -- you know, where they shouldn’t
be able to sell them, and you had the gangs begin, also, to take over that
particular operation.

JJ:

Okay, but I was asking also, [01:07:00] and, again, this is [normally an?] --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- [investigative?] thing, but, because part of the project is that --

DH:

Sure.

JJ:

-- the neighborhood was being displaces at the time --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- and they were trying to stabilize the --

DH:

Right.

JJ:

-- neighborhood, so I wanted to know what you felt at that time because,
eventually, here’s an organization that’s being built.

DH:

Right.

JJ:

Council number three --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- council number nine --

DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- and other councils.

48

�DH:

Yeah.

JJ:

But, now, they’re going along with the community. They’re --

DH:

Yeah. Right.

JJ:

-- getting displaced too. How did you think about that?

DH:

Well, I --

JJ:

How did you see that?

DH:

The problem, I think, was that they eventually decided to stop the community
organization reality of the Knights of Saint John, and they became a cooperative
credit union, which eventually collapsed, which was sad, I thought. It was long
after I left that they collapsed, but they were [01:08:00] beginning to think on that
level, especially the Cheveres, and Cesar Rivera, and those people from that
particular family. Gloria Chevere, who’s a judge right now, as a matter of fact.
But that family decided to move the Knights of Saint John into this area of credit
union, which was a good thing for people, in a sense. People could take loans
and build homes, and they did, except that, then, people began to take what they
were getting, and going out to a suburb, and building a home there so that,
eventually, they would move out of the community in which they were.
Something similar to what happens to people in Panama when you build a bridge
in a community. Stuff doesn’t come into the community. All the kids escape. All
the young people go somewhere else. They certainly, as the country in general,
prospers. They may become doctors, and lawyers, and Indian chiefs, but the
point is, you know, there they are, but [01:09:00] you thought you were building
the bridge so people would be able to get their products out, and, all of a sudden,

49

�you find people not growing rice and beans anymore, doing something else,
escaping, going somewhere else. So, things change.
JJ:

So, you didn’t see them [off?]? So, there was a push factor, and then you didn’t
see the [push factor?]?

DH:

Well, I don’t --

JJ:

I mean, [you don’t?] --

DH:

-- know whether that’s possible. I think, when people decide they’re gonna be
moving out, they’re gonna move out anyway. The thing is, what do they have as
an instrument for living as they move out of where they are? For instance, there
are people that went with us before I left for Panama to the dedication of the
churches in Panama. We went there the year that Cody went there too. Cody
went there and left before Martin Luther King came into the city, and we went to
Martin Luther King’s presentation in the Soldier Field, and then, after that, we left
for Panama. It’s okay. Take your time.

(break in audio)
DH:

(inaudible)?

JJ:

Yeah.

DH:

Well, I think, [01:10:00] when the riot occurred, for instance, I think that Daley
used it in order to put the wrong people in charge of the Puerto Rican community.
They had no Hermanos or Young Lords on it. They had [Claudia Flores?] on it.
Remember Claudia Flores?

JJ:

I remember Claudia --

50

�DH:

One of the biggest crooks in the whole city. [They were?] stealing money from
people that were trying to go back to Puerto Rico to visit family, and he would -egregious, terrible costs that he would give people [and stuff?], or doing their
taxes. I do not like the man at all, but those are the kind of people that Daley put
on his committee after the riot ended, you know? It lasted for three days. It was
over. One kid only was shot, but he wasn’t killed. He was just shot, wounded,
and this all began when some kid was shot in the park by a policeman, you
know? There were no cops that were sympathetic to the Puerto Rican
community. None. There were no real [01:11:00] Puerto Ricans on the
[committee?]. That didn’t happen until years later, when we began, in the office,
actually, a preparation for young guys from the Mexican and Puerto Rican
community to prepare for the exam to become a policeman and to become a
fireman.

JJ:

You say “we” -- the Caballeros or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

DH:

Well, not so much the Caballeros. By that time, they were already moving
towards becoming a cooperative credit union, but the Hermanos were promoting
that.

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible), okay.

DH:

And that’s [fruit?] of the Caballeros anyway. Everything goes back to the
Caballeros.

JJ:

Right, ’cause -- right? Today, it’s the Hermanos that are doing the work.

DH:

Right. Well, the Hermanos -- I don’t know whether they’re doing work now. The
--

51

�JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

-- group that meets at St. Hedwig’s, for instance, is like a hundred years old.
Every once in a while, I go there and give talks to them, but they didn’t call me
and remind me about June. I was supposed to go back there in June, but they
didn’t call me this June. I have to find out what’s going on there. I’m not sure
they’re still meeting. I hope they are, but they’re really an older group. But,
[01:12:00] eventually, you know -- when I left, also, the charismatic movement
began to come and take over for the Cursillo movement.

JJ:

Right, my mother was involved with that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DH:

Right. And [that’s the?] charismatic movement.

JJ:

What is that? What is that? Can you explain (inaudible)?

DH:

Well, charismatic movement is more on a Pentecostal level but in the Catholic
church, where people get together, and they pray, and they sing, and they speak
to God and -- supposedly in languages so that nobody understands or
something, but the point is that’s fine, but that’s all emotional stuff, but we -when I went to Mercy, there was a group at Mercy that was there, but I used
every single person that was in that group to become [ministry?] in the parish,
and I would make sure that they got better scripture, and they got better
formation, and they got all that stuff. So, they stayed in the charismatic
movement, but they also became part of the parish as ministry. That’s why they
have 3,000 people there now who are ministers, because you don’t tell people,
“You can’t be here because you’re charismatic.” [01:13:00] What you do is you
say, “Okay, fine. You want something more? Let me see how you can be a

52

�better charismatic person,” you know? “How can you do this?” So... But all this
stuff -- everything comes with change, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong
with that, but you have to know how to ask the questions about the change with
faith that people are basically going to be able to make good decisions with their
life. That’s what you really want, and, to do that, they have to be people of faith,
whether the charismatic movement lends that to people or some other
movement. Whether it’s in the church or out of the church makes no difference,
but that’s what you want to have happen for people’s benefit and for the benefit
of their communities and their families. So, that’s pretty much the way it is, I
think.
JJ:

Okay. You’re at the church here now, at St. Mary of the Woods Church, or what
are you doing now? I know [01:14:00] you’re retired.

DH:

Well, Our Lady of Mercy Church -- I just sort of live here. I do Mass in the
mornings and weekends, and do the homilies, and -- but I mostly -- my particular
job is to teach for the archdiocese. I teach scripture, and history, and pastoral
training for people in the diaconate program and people in the lay ministry
program. So, September, I start a course out in [Midland?], at the seminary, but
for people up in the northern suburbs from Waukegan, and from that area, and
from up near Harvard, Illinois and those places, which are really far north. So, I
start a course for them on what is the Christian scriptures, the 27 books of what
we call the New Testament. I did a course at the end of last year -- well, I think it
was the end of last year -- at St. Stanislaus Parish for people in the Hebrew
scriptures. [01:15:00] I will do a Hebrew scriptures course for people, but they

53

�meet at St. Philomena’s Parish, which is a little bit west and south of here. You
know, it’s all work to be done. Get people ready, and then they graduate from
that, and they eventually decide whether they’re going into the diaconate or going
to be pastoral ministers in their parish area. So -JJ:

So, once they graduate and become diaconate --

DH:

Well --

JJ:

-- [will they?] --

DH:

Diaconate program is a lot longer than this particular program. It begins with this
program, but this program goes on for two years. And then, if they want the
diaconate, they have to do that in consultation with their parish staff, and then
they get permission to start the program for diaconate, which requires a little bit
more reflection, and a lot more formation, and more scripture, and more
theology, more liturgy, more understanding of how to preach, how to talk to
people, how to give a homily, for instance. All that [01:16:00] stuff is included,
and they have, like, a five-year preparation. But what I do with the archdiocese
on these occasions is the two-year course. Actually, when I came back from
Panama, there was nothing. Everything had stopped. It was all in English.
Everything was done in English. So, I talked to some of the priests, and we said,
“Are you satisfied with this?” And they said, “No.” I said, “Well, let’s start
something else.” So, [Juan Retrato?], who’s a priest from Mexico, and [Tero
Keef?], and several other priests from the archdiocese here, we decided we were
gonna start a course. I got [Larry?] -- [forgot?] Larry’s last name. Damn. It’s at
Maternity B.V.M. Parish before we began it. We began to do courses there on

54

�scripture, and history, et cetera. We were all trained people, so we could do it.
And so, we started it, and the archdiocese was questioning this. “Why are you
doing this? Why are you doing this?” Well, because [01:17:00] you need this in
the archdiocese. Eventually, they took it over. It became the Instituto de
Liderazgo Pastoral for training for people in the entire diocese, and, also, we
began a catechetical program for Latinos because they had all kinds of North
American people teaching Latino kids. That’s ridiculous because Latinos [have?]
just as much catechism as anybody else. Besides that, if you train them, they
know a lot more. And so, the thing was, we began to train people in catechetics
in Spanish, and people who were from that culture, and every child needs
someone from his own culture to speak to him or her, you know? And you want
parents to be involved. So, eventually, I ended up in Mercy, and we just did that
constantly in Mercy. Everybody had to have their own way of doing things. Like,
we had a Hispanic group. We had Filipino groups. We had Korean groups. We
had everything there, and we had some things that were bilingual, some things
that [01:18:00] were unilingual for a particular Mass, and other things that were
trilingual. Like, the liturgy for Holy Week was always three languages -- Spanish,
English, and Tagalog -- and that’s what we would do, and people -- they did the
best they could with it. They did a great job, and people wanted to be there, so it
was good. But that’s the way we thought it had to be, so it was a matter of
rebuilding something that I thought existed when I left in 1968 but that they had
destroyed in the meantime.
JJ:

So, you were gone from ’68, and you came back --?

55

�DH:

I came back in 1982.

JJ:

1982, right. (inaudible).

DH:

1981, actually, but, 1982, I went to Our Lady of Mercy, and, by that time, we were
trying to organize something new.

JJ:

I know that the Hermanos are -- you said St. Hedwig’s?

DH:

St. Hedwig’s now. They live there, yeah.

JJ:

And --

DH:

Well, they work there. They go there.

JJ:

So, that’s their base right now?

DH:

Their base. Usually, they meet on Monday nights. Have you talked to them at
all?

JJ:

[01:19:00] I talked --

DH:

To those guys?

JJ:

-- to one of them.

DH:

Did you? Okay.

JJ:

And I do want to talk to some other --

DH:

Okay, that’s good.

JJ:

-- people (inaudible). This project will go on for another year.

DH:

Yeah. Sure. Sure.

JJ:

So, we definitely [will contact them?].

DH:

That’s good.

JJ:

Any final thought that we should --?

56

�DH:

No, I don’t think so. I just hope that people understand what we’re trying to say,
but let’s see what happens. I hope they do.

JJ:

(inaudible) everybody’s perspective, you know? That’s what we’re trying to do.

DH:

No, I think it’s a good idea to do this. I think it’s important for people to know
where the organizers of things were at that particular time, and we hope people
[would be now?]. So many of the Puerto Rican community has gone back to
Puerto Rico and moved to suburbs, or they’re more separate now from one
another than they were at that time. At that time, they were together, very much
together, but, now, they’re pretty much separate, [01:20:00] or they’re gone back
to Puerto Rico, where they really are together there, but that’s not the point. And,
here, now, in the city, we have so many different communities. Like I mentioned
before, Lady of Mercy has 60 countries, and 46 languages, and different varieties
of Spanish. You have people from Quechua communities or Aymara
communities, from Peru and Bolivia. You have people from all kinds of other
places in Latin America. You have people from Asia, people from everywhere,
so it’s [a great world?], and it’s a multiethnic church, and you have to pay
attention to it. You have to help people to grow in their own culture and celebrate
in their own culture, I think, and you have to help them to do it. That’s about it.

JJ:

I appreciate [it?]. Thank you [very much?].

DH:

Thank you very much.

JJ:

Appreciate it.

DH:

Oh, you’re welcome. I don’t know whether it was very good, but --

JJ:

It was very good.

57

�DH:

-- we’ll see.

JJ:

It was very good. Thank you.

END OF VIDEO FILE

58

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&#13;
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. </text>
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&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>“Father, Forgive Them”
From the series: The Seven Last Words of Christ
Text: Luke 23:32-38

Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
February 20, 1994
Transcription of the spoken sermon
For the Sundays of Lent our meditation will be on the seven words from the
cross, the seven words uttered by Jesus in the time of his crucifixion. No one
Gospel has all seven words. The most that any one Gospel has are three words.
You have to take all four Gospels in order to come up with seven utterances from
the cross. Mark’s Gospel, the earliest Gospel, has only the groan, “My God, my
God, why?” In these Lenten weeks, with these familiar utterances before us, let us
think about them not so much as words that Jesus spoke, as though there were
some scribe with a dictating pad down at the foot of the cross. Let us understand
them as they probably were intended, that is, as the windows through which the
respective Gospel writers were finding meaning in the death of Jesus. Those
seven words, which appear collectively in the four Gospels, give us a window. We
can look through that window with the respective evangelists to sense what they
sensed was going on and, thereby, hopefully to find for ourselves renewed
meaning, as once again we contemplate the crucified one.
The first word, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do,” is an
amazing utterance in the context of the paragraph in which it appears. We have
the leaders scoffing at Jesus, the crowd mocking Jesus, the soldiers making sport
of Jesus. In the midst of the excruciating pain and anguish of crucifixion, the
cruelest blow that could be delivered in that ancient world, Jesus had the grace
and the compassion to pray, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they
are doing.” That statement really is like a concise creed of Christian faith. For
therein we find a word about ourselves, and we find a word about God, and we
find a word addressed to us as well, giving us a way to live.
It is a word about us. Jesus said, “Father forgive them, for they don’t know what
they are doing.” And we don’t know what we are doing most of the time, do we? It
wasn’t a matter of whether they were educated or uneducated, whether they were
intelligent or lacking in intelligence. It wasn’t a matter of that kind of knowing. It
was that totality of their being and the totality of our humankind that simply
drifts into all kinds of circumstances and situations that lead to brokenness and
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hurt and pain and tragedy. Most of the time we don’t mean it. We don’t intend it.
We get caught up in it. And there is a kind of solidarity about humankind, so
when Jesus prayed that prayer I think he had in mind not only those gathered at
the foot of the cross, the soldiers, the religious leaders, and a few scattered
followers. He had in mind those to be sure, but he had in mind really the whole
body of humankind — all of us as well. For it is true of us so much of the time —
we just don’t know the implications and the consequences. We get caught up in
the solidarity of the human situation. And Jesus holding us not in contempt is the
beautiful thing about Jesus. He never held a person in contempt nor did he hold
us all together in contempt, but rather with deep grace — amazing grace – said,
“Father, forgive them. Because they don’t know what they are doing.” And we
don’t, do we?
Some time this evening the deadline will be reached for whether or not the guns
have been pulled out of Sarajevo or whether the air strikes will commence. That
tragic war has been going on for nearly two years, and we have watched it night
after night — the misery, the anguish, old women weeping over graves, parents
grasping bleeding children, bodies blown apart. And we say to ourselves, “What
in the world is going on? What are those people thinking of? Ethnic cleansing. All
of the tragedy of that situation in the former Yugoslavia and we don’t know what
to do about it. A friend of mine preached a year ago, saying (and he’s had a good
deal of experience in terms of international affairs) that the judgment of history
will be harsh for not doing something. Others have said we stand by in this
century and watch the horror of the Holocaust, and now we’re sitting by again.
But, as a matter of fact, what do you do? A civil war, a civil conflict, ethnic
rivalries, blood feuds, what do you do? What do you do if you are a world leader?
What do you do if you are a politician? We haven’t known what to do. Voices have
been raised, but the risks are there too and the stakes are high. It took the
explosion of a shell in a market place, killing over 60 people, that finally
galvanized public opinion and gave the administration, I suppose, the green light
to move and to gather the NATO forces and to come to some decision to act, at
least to lay down an ultimatum.
I suspect that Pilate gathered his national security council around him also as
Passover was approaching, and the possibility of this Nazarene coming to town
was discussed. What were they to do? Ah, Pilate doesn’t come off very well —
washing his hands as though he could absolve himself from this whole thing. He
couldn’t absolve himself, but what should he have done? I imagine they went
back and forth with hot debate. What does a politician do, having to test the
winds because another election is coming? Does one act according to one’s
conviction, or is it true of the politician as it is true of all of us that our personal
ambitions and our personal motivations and our own egos and our own pride get
so wound up and so involved with our desire to serve the public good and to do
what is right that it is hard to separate them? What does one do? We don’t know,
often we simply don’t know. Jesus said, “Father forgive them. They just don’t
know. They don’t know what they are doing.”

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Can you imagine the discussion in the Sanhedrin cloakroom on Good Friday
afternoon when Annas and Caiaphas conferred about the fact that now the deed
was done? It would not have been difficult for them to rationalize everything that
was done for the well being of the people, for the peace and tranquility of the city,
for the accommodation of the Roman occupier. It wasn’t easy, folks. Jesus said,
“Father, forgive them. They really don’t know. It’s not that they aren’t intelligent.
It’s not that they are not responsible. It’s not that they’re not guilty. It’s not that
they will not have to live with the implications of their actions. But, really, forgive
them. Forgive them!” Jesus didn’t stand in contempt of humankind in the
ambiguity of our situation, but with deep compassion and deep insight said, “The
only thing that can do anything is Your grace, O God. Forgive them.”
One of the advantages of vacation time is I can read books in the daylight and go
to movies at night. In the Name of the Father is a powerful film taking place in
about 1974, about some early bombings of the IRA. London, England is upset. A
young Irishman is arrested with his friends. The evidence is rigged. There is
police brutality and coercion such that one is disillusioned. One is disillusioned
who has such a respect for the grand British tradition of law and of rectitude, one
who has a vision of British police as the London Bobby without a gun, with
nightstick, tipping his hat. Here was coercion. Here was a keeping away of
evidence. This was a skewing of the system because the English were nervous,
because there was terrorism in their land, in their city. Something had to be done.
Someone had to be nailed. Someone had to be arrested. Someone had to be
proven guilty in order that the people would feel secure again.
And that British system of law and justice, that wonderful system, these
remarkably dignified people with their wigs and all, held people in prison for
fifteen years for a crime they hadn’t done when they knew they hadn’t done the
crime. You don’t want to believe it can happen. But you sense the pressure they
were under to make it right. They didn’t know what they were doing. They did
know what they were doing, but they didn’t know what they were doing because
we are constantly caught in that kind of bifurcation to do what is right, or to
survive.
Schindler’s List, a powerful film that must be on your list, shows the Holocaust in
all of its horror. The most dastardly deed in human history, in this century. Not a
film without hope, however. Schindler, a swash-buckling reckless, hard drinking,
woman-chasing exploiter of other human beings, going to the Krakow Ghetto
during the Nazi occupation to exploit the vulnerability of the Jews, to get their
money in order to establish a factory, to hire them cheaply in order for him to
make a fortune — pure and simple. He was clear about that. But he ends up
beginning to see these people as people, begins to use his considerable fortune to
bribe the system and get around that awful Nazi horror in order to save little
children and old people and those in between. His list is those ostensibly working
in his factory. But Schindler, this swash-buckling, kind of careless German
becoming human, has had his own heart broken with compassion. Schindler is I,

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and I am Schindler, the light and the shadow that are always coexistent within
me. Jesus knew it, and Jesus did not hold me in contempt, nor did he hold
Schindler in contempt. But Jesus said, “Father forgive them, they don’t know
what they are doing.”
Ah, there’s a word about us here. I grow so angry with people. I get disgusted. I
get impatient. I despise gutless leadership full of guile. I criticize and I judge, and
when I do that I set myself apart as though I am not in complicity with the whole
human scene. But you see, I can’t do that. I am in solidarity with it all; the light
and the shadow run through my heart too. I am a part of the picture, so it is not a
question of whether I can stand apart and judge. It is rather the fact that with you
I stand before the cross and hear Jesus say of me and of you, “You just don’t
know.” What grace! What insight! What empathy! What compassion for us, such
as we are.
And it’s a word about God. “Father, forgive.” It’s a word about God. It’s a prayer
that issued from Jesus’ deepest, most profound sense of who God was. “Father,
forgive.” In the intimate connection, that Abba relationship, relationship of
parent and child, that intimate connection of Jesus and Father. Divine parent.
“Loving God, forgive.” It is what he taught. He was living out simply what he
taught, for in the Sermon on the Mount he said, “Be children of your heavenly
father. Love your enemies. The sun shines on the just and the unjust. The rain
falls on the good and the evil. Your heavenly father embraces the whole human
family and graces them all together. Be children of your heavenly father. Love
your enemies.” It was the God he pictured so beautifully in the story of the
Prodigal Son, which is really the story of a prodigal father, a father’s love. The son
coming home, humiliated, with his speech well rehearsed, ready to make a plea to
be put up in the bunk house and finding himself rather overwhelmed by the
father’s love, drenched in the father’s tears, embraced in the father’s bosom.
Jesus, knowing God as Jesus knew God, said, “Forgive them,” because he knew
that forgiveness is God’s thing.
Forgiveness is God’s thing. You notice what’s not here? There’s not the slightest
hint here in this word from the cross that Jesus was somehow or other standing
between an angry God and a sinning people. There’s not a word of that in this
word. In fact, I will be pointing out throughout the season of Lent that if we had
only the four Gospels, which seem to me would be enough– if we had only the
four Gospels, if only we had these seven words by which to interpret the cross –
there would be not the slightest hint that that one whom Jesus addressed was full
of wrath, ready to strike. There’s not a word of that. It is rather out of our
tradition, coming from Anselm, the archbishop of Canterbury in the 11th century,
that the idea comes that there is some kind of inexorable law that needs to be
satisfied and that God could not be just and forgive unless God exacted the pound
of flesh and that inexorable law was satisfied. Not a word of that here. Just —
“There is forgiveness with Thee,” as the Psalmist said. “Father, forgive them.” Ah,
it’s a word about God. God is like that.

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And it is a word for you and for me, for Jesus has given us an example that we
might live as he lived, being forgiven so that we might forgive one another, being
love that we might love one another, being the recipients of amazing grace that
we might be gracious one to another. The model of Jesus, the life he lived, the
grace he conveyed, if only we could do it, would change the world, the only thing
that would change the world.
Being lived out before us these days in the Olympic Games is the drama of Nancy
Carrigan and Tanya Harding. I would love to have five minutes with each of those
young ladies, individually. I would like to say to Nancy Carrigan, “Nancy, if you
want to have freedom, if you want to skate as a swan with grace and delight, then
although I don’t know the horror of that experience, let it go and forgive whoever
is guilty. Let it go so that your heart will not be alienated and your mind filled
with fear. Let it go. Pray Jesus’ prayer, ‘Father, forgive; because certainly they
didn’t know what they were doing.’ Oh yes, they did know what they were doing,
but they didn’t know what they were doing.” Have you ever been caught in
something like that? And I would say to Tanya, “I don’t know if you are guilty or
not. If you’re not guilty, God give you grace and courage. But if you are guilty,
God forgive you.” And I would hug her. That girl needs a hug. Doesn’t she need
someone to love her and to tell her that she too is lovely?
And, that’s just two people whom the media have lifted high before our view, but
in those two the paradigm of Bosnia, and of East and West, and of the whole
world. The world would be changed if we could do just two things, if we could
hear the prayer and know it is for us, and be forgiven. The last bastion of pride is
the resistance to the word, “I forgive you.” Then, if we could forgive one another it
would change the world.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>“Father, forgive them…”
From the series: A True Story: The Gospel and Forgiveness
Text: Luke 23:34
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
March 24, 1999
Transcription of the spoken sermon
"A True Story: The Gospel and Forgiveness," has been our Lenten theme this
season. The story is the story written by Simon Wiesenthal reflecting his own
experience in the Nazi concentration camp, being pulled aside at one point and
taken into the room of a dying Nazi officer who poured out his confession, his
terrible atrocity that he had perpetrated as one of the SS troops, burning alive a
village of Jews, a horrible story, pleading to this one token Jew, as it were, to
forgive him. Wiesenthal listened to the story, sat almost paralyzed, then he rose
and left without saying a word, and the little book, The Sunflower, that he writes,
concludes with the question, not an answer, but with the question, "What would
you have done?"
That’s where we began a few weeks ago and tonight we bring our reflections on
that question to a conclusion. Probably not to a conclusion in terms of being
finished with it, but at least for these Wednesday night considerations.
The matter of forgiveness is much more complex than I had ever been aware,
which may sound very strange because it would seem that being in the ministry
almost 40 years now, would not forgiveness be the stuff that I have dealt with
every day? In thought and reflection and in relationships, preaching and
teaching, forgiveness - it seems like it is the most obvious commodity with which
we in the church have to do. And yet, I think that in these weeks I have thought
about it at a level at which I have never thought about it before, and it’s a much
more complex matter than I ever realized. That’s why I began with the question a
few weeks ago, "Is it possible, is it moral?"
The Jewish traditions say I cannot forgive you for something that you’ve done to
another. I can only forgive you for what you’ve done to me. It is very easy for us,
with our Gospel of grace, to move into cheap grace and cheap grace would fail to
take seriously the plight of the victim. It would devalue the victim and tend
simply to shove everything under the rug. It’s very easy to do that. We have seen
that actions and attitudes do have their consequences.

© Grand Valley State University

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�Father, forgive them…

Richard A. Rhem

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Forgiveness does not rule out the consequence of what we have done. There is a
harvest at the end of our days and, in the meantime, as well. And yet, forgiveness
certainly must be possible, for we are in a dead-end situation of unrelieved
darkness, but it is a complex matter, and I wonder if the fact that I hadn’t really
ever wrestled with the nature of forgiveness or what was involved or its
possibility is not because I was raised, as I suppose most of you were, with a very
traditional idea of the atoning death of Jesus Christ as the place where
forgiveness was procured for us. Are you with me? God is holy; we have sinned.
We cannot do anything about our situation, for we daily increase our debt. Does
that sound like catechism? And consequently, if anything were to be done for us
to deliver us from the weight of our sin, it would have to be by another. God
provided another. Jesus came to die for our sins. He bore our sins away, thereby
making possible forgiveness. That’s the way you learned it, isn’t it?
And there’s something powerful about that image and when I speak about it
tonight, I don’t want you to hear caricature. I hope I won’t caricature nor ridicule.
I simply want you to know that, as I’m thinking about that and it’s not just in this
Lenten season but in these more recent years, I’ve come to recognize that that
image falls short, and I think it falls short here - that atoning death of Jesus that
took away our sin and created the possibility for God to forgive us in the
traditional understanding, that was a transaction that happened apart from us.
Martin Luther was so strong at that point. It happened apart from us, on our
behalf, and it had a very objective element about it. There was a debt to be
settled, a score to be settled, and to use the phrase of another Lutheran writer,
Jesus took the rap for us, and that happens in the evangelical and orthodox
presentation of atonement theory, that happens apart from us.
There’s an old hymn, "‘Tis done, ‘tis done, the great transaction’s done," and that
imagery has been repeated in the old hymns and in our liturgies. The Reformed
Church liturgy of many, many years had this statement, "He was forsaken by God
that we need never be forsaken."
"Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, he washed it white
as snow."
"There is a fountain filled with blood drawn from Emmanuel’s veins and sinners
plunged beneath that flood loose all their guilty stains."
Something happened between God and Jesus objectively, out there, on my behalf,
quite apart from any engagement by me. That’s a rather powerful imagery and
one can see what was going on. Our debt, our sins transferred to another who
suffered the wrath of God on our behalf in order that we might be set free,
forgiven.
Now, I’m suggesting that I never really wrestled with forgiveness that much
because that was all so matter-of-fact and taken for granted, and so what’s the big
deal? Well, that’s not quite fair, because it was a big deal. Some of us might have

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

sung some of those old hymns with tears in our eyes. There was a deep emotional
engagement with that idea because there was this gracious act of God in that God
supplied the one who took the rap for us.
But, think about it for a moment: In that conception of things, there is no
forgiveness. That is not forgiveness. God got God’s pound of flesh. Someone took
the rap for us. The penalty due was meted out. God didn’t forgive anything, which
means that even God is subject to a moral absolute. Even God couldn’t simply
say, "I forgive you." God had to arrange this elaborate structure of substitutionary
atonement because the absolute, the moral absolute, the law is even above God,
and it will be satisfied by God. And so, if God would embrace us and take us
home, God has some dealing to do.
But, once again, this is quite apart from anything really happening in my being.
Do you hear me? You could learn this stuff in the catechism. You might on
occasion even be moved at the thought that there was a love of God that provided
that elaborate institution by which God could now embrace us, but God had a
problem and God had to deal with it and so, as a matter of fact, there was no
forgiveness. God can’t forgive, obviously. I think that that old, traditional imagery
which we took for granted, had been spoon-fed from childhood up, showed us the
formula by which to receive our reprieve without it ever necessarily touching us
or changing us.
Now, I want to suggest that that image of God has been called in question here,
that image of God sitting on a super throne, that moral governor of the universe
out there, apart from us, setting up these respective transactions. Haven’t we
been more inclined to seek God as an Ultimate Mystery flowing out into the
whole cosmic drama, this 15 billion year adventure on which we are, beginning
with whatever Big Bang was with the coalescing of matter, the emergence of
inanimate matter, then animate matter, life, and then conscious life, and then
human being, and then human history, human culture, that trajectory on which
we are ourselves as we speak? And if God is that Ultimate Mystery Whose Spirit
is the enlivening, energizing, creative force moving through all that is, pushing,
nudging, driving toward human humanity, humanization, then it is not as though
some governor outside created us perfect, we falling, therefore taking upon
ourselves the guilt for violating the law of the universe that even was above the
governor, and that whole thing had to be somehow figured, but rather, we are in
an emerging mode and we are still so much animal struggling for survival,
clawing our way from the jungle, emerging out of the slime, moving toward
human community, here and there, now and again it breaks forth, but it’s
constantly driven back. We find ourselves moving in a humane fashion, only to
find all of the old stuff in us rising up now and again.
And it seems to me that the God of this process is not about satisfying some
moral absolute that even holds God hostage, who needs some sacrifice, some
satisfaction, but rather, a God who keeps pushing us, pushing us along, waiting

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Richard A. Rhem

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for us patiently, a God who is not into punishment, not into retribution, for what
is punishment, what is retribution in terms of where this thing is going? We bring
upon ourselves our punishment. Certainly in the ordering of society it is
necessary for law and order and all of that. That’s another whole complex thing.
But, I’m thinking about the soul of the universe now. I’m thinking about where
it’s all going; I’m thinking about that creative Spirit that’s pushing toward
ultimate world community, ultimate humane existence, ultimate humanization
and whatever other levels of being there may be beyond us.
It seems to me that our new image of God might suggest, as the Psalmist
suggests, that with that God there is forgiveness, not having to satisfy some
external moral absolute out here, but with that God there is forgiveness and the
image even more powerful of Jesus of the prodigal son who comes home, not to
receive recrimination and condemnation and retribution, but the embrace of the
father. And I come, finally, to my test. There’s Jesus dying who says, "Father,
forgive them, for they know not what they do." The most powerful, evocative
emblem of the whole life and work of Jesus is in those words. "Father, forgive
them." Just simply forgive them. Let it go, please. Because they don’t know what
they are doing.
Oh, they knew what they were doing; they knew good and well what they were
doing. They knew as well what they were doing as Slobodan Milosevic knows
what he’s doing, and our Administration and our Defense Department and our
military know what they’re doing in these hours. They knew what they were doing
in the short run. They were maintaining power and position and prestige and the
status quo and business as usual and conventional wisdom. They knew what they
were doing, in the short run.
They didn’t know what they were doing in terms of this 15 billion year process
that we’ve come to understand. They didn’t know what they were doing in terms
of God’s intention and purpose, moving toward fuller humanization. They didn’t
understand. They were blocking, they were hindering, they were throwing up
barriers against where the Spirit would go with this whole thing of which we are a
part. So, Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, because they don’t understand."
Now, there he is, true God, true human. There you see it. There you see the heart
of the Divine. There you see the intention of the human. And it seems to me that
when we are encountered with that kind of spirit reflective of the divine Spirit,
but incarnate in the human, our defenses are defeated. What happens when you
are as guilty as hell and you face the one you have offended and you’re all ready to
marshal your arguments, make your denials, line up your excuses, rationalize
your behavior, and you meet grace and forgiveness. All of that which you have
gotten ready with which to carry on a defense of your life project melts, and you
begin to weep and there is a contrition that cannot be contrived that rushes to the
surface, and you say, "Oh, my God." Then there’s a moment of self-awareness, a

© Grand Valley State University

�Father, forgive them…

Richard A. Rhem

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moment of honesty. There is then in the presence of such grace the capacity to
own my story as my story, and then I’m forgiven.
References:
Simon Wiesenthal. The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of
Forgiveness. Shocken, revised, expanded edition, 1998.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>“Father, Into Thy Hands…”
From the series: The Seven Last Words From the Cross
Text: Luke 23:46
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Maundy Thursday, March 31, 1994
Transcription of the spoken sermon
"Into Thy hands I commit my spirit," Jesus' final words as Luke paints the picture
for us. This last word is a word of trust. For John, the last word was a word of
completion; for Mark, followed closely by Matthew, the last word as they
recorded it, a word of abandonment. For Luke, a word of trust. "Father, into Thy
hands I commit or commend my spirit." The one who was conceived by the Spirit
and baptized by the Spirit and ministered in the power of the Spirit now returns
the spirit to God Who had given life in the beginning, and the cycle is complete.
The last word in Luke's picture is a word of trust.
You have perhaps sensed by now, as we come to the last of the seven words from
the cross, that John's picture stands out by itself. Matthew, Mark and Luke are
closer to each other. Mark, the earliest, is followed closely by Matthew. But there
is some significant distance in Luke and the picture is different; it has a different
feel. In Luke, the whole story is softened a bit. In the Garden, the observance of
which we are here tonight to celebrate, Jesus prays the same prayer in Luke's
account as in Matthew and in Mark, and then is ministered to by an angel who
strengthens him. He prays more earnestly and sweats, as it were, great drops of
blood. But there is missing, in Luke, that phrase about Jesus' soul being
wrenched within him. For Luke, in the Garden there was no breaking of that
constant communion with God, or that succor, supplied here by the angel of God.
And then on the cross, Luke's Jesus gives us a most powerful witness to the good
news of the Gospel. The three words of Luke, "Father, forgive them ...," "Today
Paradise," and finally this word, a word of trust, "Father, into Thy hands I
commend my spirit."
That trust was not a cheap article. It was not the consequence of sunny skies and
smooth seas, birds singing and all well. It was a word of trust that issued from
one that was in the midst of Hell's darkness, without a scrap of evidence that
everything that he had banked his life on was true. Jesus, to me, is believable, not
because he was so full of confidence and went about with such great certainty, but
because of the very vulnerability of his faith. His trust was not the trust of the
religious fanatic who has no questions, only answers, sure and simple and
© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

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certain. No David Koresh here. No Jim Jones. No Bible-thumping, fingerpointing TV evangelist here. This one trusts in the darkness with fear and
trembling. That's why I believe him. That's why I would follow him. That's why I
would trust him, because he finally is able to still trust in the darkness.
"Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit." Luke is citing Psalm 31, verse 5, a
different citation than the one Mark gives us, "My God, my God, why?" which
comes from Psalm 22. Here in Luke's picture we have Luke's conviction that this
one who found no scattering of his night and no alleviation of his pain and no
answer to his question died in trust, nevertheless. And that is perhaps as
powerful a witness, as powerful a statement of good news as I have to share with
you any time. For this trust is a trust that is unmovable. It is a trust in spite of
everything. It is a trust that will not let go. It is a trust that finally issued from one
who had lived in trust and died in trust, with the mystery and the terrible
suffering still intact.
He died. There's an old Lenten hymn that says "Learn of Jesus Christ to Die," and
well we might. Death is something that we face, all of us, as we lose those we love,
or as we come to the point of our own terminus. Death, I learned over ten years
ago, is a matter that presses for some answer, some primal need in the human
breast, no matter how far one may be removed from religious practice and faith. I
learned it in the fall of 1983 when I went to the University of Michigan where
Hans Küng was lecturing and holding a seminar, and I saw that great secular
university flock to the largest hall on campus to hear this man read a lecture for
two hours on the subject of death and judgment and purgatory and heaven and
hell and whether there was really eternal life. And I thought to myself, no matter
how sophisticated we become, no matter how far we may be removed from
childhood faith or religious tradition, finally we humankind must die, and we
know it, and we wonder about it, and every once in a while it erupts upon us and
we must face the fact that we will die.
The hymn says, "Learn of Jesus Christ to Die," and well we might. Death was
never a terribly fearsome reality for me personally, if I may tell you my story
tonight. It was because, I suppose, of my father being an elder and I being a child
that came along lately, some would stay a mistake, some would say a surprise,
nonetheless when three sisters had been raised and gotten along with their lives,
I was still there to be dealt with and so I was dragged around to everything that
my parents went to. My father was an elder, and so I went to every funeral home
in the city. It seems like every Sunday night we were at a funeral home.
Somebody would die in that congregation, and my father always went. Death was
so much a part of life. One Sunday night I remember going to a couple with
whom my parents were very close. I called the lady Aunt Jenny. I didn't realize
how ill she was but, while we were there, she died. I remember my father taking
me by the hand, taking me into her bedroom, and there she lay on her bed, eyes
wide open, breathing no more. The minister came, and the funeral director was
called, and I was a little child in the midst of all of that. I remember another

© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

occasion, as a teenager, coming to my grandparents' home to pick up my parents.
It was also a Sunday night it seems, and I came into the house and my
grandfather had died. The clan was gathering. At some moment everyone
gathered around, and my father led us all in prayer. Death was very much a part
of life, but death was very much set in the context of a deep trust in God.
As a young seminarian I preached one Sunday night on the air in Holland,
Michigan, at a city-wide hymn sing. It was a service that was broadcast live. A
good friend of mine had lost a little child to leukemia. It was a tragic loss and a
great sorrow, but the child had died so beautifully with a vision of angels, and I
told that story. And, as young preachers are wont to do, I generalized the
experience and made as though it was a rather simple thing for everyone to die
beautifully. The next morning one of the faculty members came to me and said, "
I heard you on the radio last night," and I said, "Oh, how nice." And she said, “My
father was a marvelous Christian man,” and I said, "Oh." She said, "He died a
terrible death." And I said, "Oh." I knew what she was telling me. I learned that
one ought to be very reticent about the way one speaks about departure from this
life, and one ought to be very loath to generalize the way in which that will
happen for others. Nonetheless, it didn't change my basic conviction that it is
possible for us to "Learn of Jesus Christ to Die," and to deal with the reality of our
mortality in a context of trust that will stand us well in the whelming flood.
I loved the prayer as a child, "Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray Thee Lord, my
soul to keep, If I should die before I wake, I pray Thee Lord my soul to take." I
understand there's a Revised Standard Version of that now. I called my
granddaughter Stephanie tonight and I said, "Steph, tell me your bedtime
prayer," and she said, "Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray Thee Lord my soul to
keep, If I should die before I wake, I pray Thee Lord my soul to take." I said,
"Good. You pray it just like Bumpa prayed it." I am not a child psychologist, and I
recognize that there may be certain appropriate stages of a child's development
when it is more appropriate than at other stages to introduce certain concepts,
but my experience would tell me that in childhood it is possible to wrap death in
such fundamental trust that one will never forget it and will be able to carry that
into one's final moments. I prayed every night, "Now I lay me down to sleep, I
pray Thee Lord, my soul to keep, If I should die before I wake, I pray Thee Lord
my soul to take," and I'm a bit embarrassed to tell you this next thing, but when I
grew and, long after the time when I began to formulate my own prayers upon
retiring, I always concluded with my childhood prayer. There was something
about that word that spoke of the ultimate trust, a way through which to go in
one's day, and a confidence with which to pillow one's head through the night.
And I tell you that not simply to bare my soul to you tonight, but because Psalm
31:5, "Into Thy hands I commit my spirit," was the "Now I lay me down to sleep"
of Jesus' day. It was the Hebrew child's bedtime prayer. In fact, it was the last
petition of the evening prayers for the Hebrew people. So when Luke portrays for
us the final word of Jesus, he gives us the prayer that Mary taught her son when

© Grand Valley State University

�Father, Into Thy Hands…

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

he was a child when she tucked him into bed. The word he would have recited as
he drifted off to sleep was, "Into Thy hands I commit my spirit."
The only word that Luke adds to that prayer is that intimate word of address,
"Father." "Father, into Thy hands I commit my spirit." And then he died. A final
word of trust. If there is anything that we can take away from this I would think it
would simply cause us to redouble our efforts and our commitment as parents
and as grandparents and as a community of faith to recognize that it is those very
earliest impressions imprinted upon the mind of the youngest child that travel
with us through all our days. And if those impressions are impressions of trust,
then even death, when wrapped in trust, loses its fearsomeness and becomes for
us the possibility of movement from life through death to life, which is eternal.
The hymn says "Learn of Jesus Christ to Die." Well might we learn that, to trust
in the beginning is to be able to trust in the end, and then there is nothing,
nothing, finally, that we need fear.

© Grand Valley State University

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                <text> Faust, Rebecca</text>
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                <text>Correspondence between Pvt. Daniel Faust, his mother, and his sister of Schuylkill County Pennsylvania. Faust was an infantryman in Pennsylvania's 95th and 96th Infantry regiments during the Civil War. Correspondence covers the routine details of their lives. Cabinet photo of Daniel in uniform in separate record.</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en"&gt;No Copyright - United States&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                  <text>A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472"&gt;Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470"&gt;John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471"&gt;Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478"&gt;Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476"&gt;Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479"&gt;Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en"&gt;No Copyright - United States&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>RHC-45_CW1-9692-8</text>
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            <name>Title</name>
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                <text>Faust. Photograph of Pvt. Daniel Faust</text>
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            <name>Date</name>
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            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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                <text>Schriver &amp; Kibler</text>
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            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                <text>United States. Army</text>
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                <text>Cabinet photo of Pvt. Daniel Faust. Faust was an infantryman in Pennsylvania's 95th and 96th Infantry regiments. Family correspondence in separate record.</text>
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                <text>Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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