295 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/35baf8c6485fe6f0e0d331bbd76ae755.mp4 7503000ecf199eadb78a6c07654b5bce https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2116da6cd886dee245d6bd30179eb35d.pdf 9e7f0b5152bcbd6c92ba15dbaaefe910 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] ERIK SHILLING: When we were installing the camera in the P-40 I had made several trips to Rangoon to check with the RAF because we'd gotten the cameras from the RAF and on one of these trips I saw a fantastic, beautiful little airplane called a CW-21 and I wanted to fly it and I talked to Walt Pentecost and he said that he could arrange it. So the next trip down I got to fly the airplane and it was so outstanding. It had a rate of climb of over 5000 feet a minute and compare that to about 2400 feet a minute with the P-40. So I felt that it would be a real good interceptor to shoot down observation planes and I went to Chennault when I returned and talked to him about it and he thought it was a good idea. So later on, the arrangement had been made to buy these things, but at the time I wasn't aware that this arrangement was being made. So that's why we had been ordered to pick up the CW-21's and take them to Kunming. When I was in Toungoo, I knew that I wouldn't be going back down - it was a permanent change of station - so I had a camera and a wind-up gramophone and a bunch of records and all of my clothes and everything else. So I put the record player underneath me and put the records, bundled them up and protected them with clothes and so forth and the baggage compartment was also loaded, so I had everything that I could get into the airplane. Then when we were at Loiwing, as I came back to the airplanes and Lacey's airplane had already been finished refueling and he took off to check his airplane and I wanted to brief him, but when the air raid siren came, we couldn't wait for him and without radio contact I couldn't �tell him that the Japanese were coming in, so I felt that the best thing to do was to get airborne and lead him and get away. So we then departed for Kunming. About an hour into the flight before the engines started backfiring and I thought everything was fine and when the engines started backfiring I started losing speed and I knew that Lacey had no briefing whatsoever, didn't have the vaguest idea what was going on and at that time when I started looking for a field to set down in, I spotted a CNAC airplane that was going - had departed Kunming and was going to our destination - was where we had departed from. So I knew that we were right on course at that time because he couldn't have been too far off. So I felt that if I could get these guys to see the airplane, they would realize that we were okay and if I went down to continue on and they would be in Kunming within a few minutes. So when I turned and headed for - unfortunately the CNAC plane was camouflaged. But anyhow, when I turned to him I didn't even have enough power to catch the airplane and normally the CW would have at least 100 miles an hour on him. So when I was losing ground and I wiggled my wings and pointed, hoping that they could see the airplane, but unknown to me I had already lost Ken as I turned and he was … (break) ERIK SHILLING: So when I pointed to the transport and felt that they had seen the airplane, then I turned around and went back on course to Kunming. It wasn't about 5 minutes later that I didn't even have enough power to maintain my altitude and I started descending and I either had to bail out or belly land and I didn't want to bail out and I spotted a clearing off to the left and I started gliding toward this clearing. The clearing was on the side of a mountain about maybe 1000 feet down below the top and one thing that saved my neck here was the fact that I was over-shooting and I had to dive, try to get into this clearing and the more I dove, the more speed I got. But this - when I got there I was over-shooting so badly, that with the excess speed I was able to parallel the mountain and just mush into the trees and I remember looking at the air speed just as �I hit and it was set at 100 miles an hour. So then when I hit the trees and the airplane started bouncing around and everything, everything went black, although I wasn't unconscious but I was aware of the airplane and the only thought that kept going through my mind was when is this damn thing gonna stop. When it finally came to a stop I jumped out of the airplane without thinking and ran down this slope to this open area and when I got there Lacey Mangleburg was circling and I had mentioned that Lacey, if I have a - I was having engine problems so I said, Lacey if I go down, throw me your gun and he agreed, so as he came over the last time, he had the canopy rolled back and I could see he had his hand over the side and dropped the gun and when the gun went below the top of a mountain in the distance, I lost it. But I could hear it hit in the brush, so I spent about 30 minutes looking for it and I still couldn't find it and it was getting drizzle and colder and I sort of decided I'd go back up to the airplane and when I got there the airplane was the whole ground was flooded with gasoline. So I then decided it would be better to stay away from the airplane for a bit and I stayed underneath another tree there until it got real dark and I started hearing noises in the woods and decided it would be safer to get in the airplane than it was out here underneath this tree. So I spent the night in the tree and I pulled the parachute and I wrapped up in it, trying to keep warm, but anyhow I didn't sleep worth a damn and the next morning I was real thirsty and I started using the leaves off the trees, licking those and trying to get some moisture from them and about this time a native and a little kid about 8 or 9 years old came up the trail. The airplane had come to rest only about 20 miles from this trail and when they got within about 20 or 30 feet from me, it was the first time they sort of noticed my standing there, and they came to an abrupt stop and I had a passport in my pocket and I reached in because it had some Chinese writing on it and I reached in and I guess they thought I was reaching for a gun and they ran. So there I was by myself, but about maybe 45 minutes they came back with maybe 100 or couple of hundred people. One of these guys was a real belligerent ass and he got up close to me and he was talking to me in Chinese and I �didn't know what he was saying and I was trying to answer him in English and I used one word that I knew like "Megwo Ren" means American, but with 400 or so dialects it didn't mean anything to him either. Then I happened to think of this passport again with the Chinese chop there and I reached in and gave it to him and he took it upside down and he was a big shot - so when he took it upside down and he was thumbing through it, I was frustrated and angry and I snatched it away from him and I turned it around and said "Here, you stupid s.o.b." and gave it back to him and everyone there just broke out in laughter and he lost so much face that he disappeared in the crowd. So from that moment on the crowd became more friendly. But he was working them up into a sort of an angry mob and I was really concerned about my life. Anyhow, with him gone, they still built a stockade, cut trees down, built a stockade around the airplane and I was told to stay inside there and they covered the airplane up so it couldn't be seen from above, and this was sort of my first indication that they thought I was maybe Japanese. These people were in such a remote area that they had never seen a Caucasian before and they did know that they were at war with Japan and here I was certainly not a Chinese and I was flying in an airplane with guns and so they put two and two together and got the fact that I was Japanese and my hunch was correct - which I found out later on. But then when they didn't bother me I thought well maybe they're gonna hold me for ransom, because I'd read Terry and the Pirates and stuff like this and so I felt I didn't know when I would get back. But anyhow that night they built a fire and had a kettle and each one of them had a little pouch and they put rice and vegetables and just boiled it in this kettle and they all had rice bowls and they gave me a bowl of rice and I had the only chop sticks amongst the crowd and they cut down some twigs off some trees and used them as chop sticks and these guys were almost Neanderthal types and as they were eating and they'd see my bowl getting a little - they'd suck on the sticks until they were clean and then they'd reach in this thing and give me some more food and that sort of spoiled my appetite. So anyhow, it was late the next day that I saw a distinct change in �their attitude toward me and what happened was that I had landed near a warning net station and the warning net was the last one that had reported me and they told all the natives to be on the lookout for me, that I was fighting for them. So then they built a sedan chair to carry me in and out of part of the parachute and the shroud lines, they put all of my clothes and bundles of stuff wrapped up in the parachute and they took the machine gun ammunition out of the guns and carried that too. So then we started down this trail and in one place - I wanted to walk but they wouldn't let me - it was quite apparent now that it was an honor to carry me. So in some of the gullies, it was a real deep ravine and the first guy would go into the apex of this thing and then they would both back up a little bit and this guy would go out and come around and then he would have to back up for the rear guy to get into the apex, and here I was hanging out over this damn ravine a couple hundred feet down below me and I wanted to walk in the worst kind of way. But the thing was so narrow that I couldn't have gotten out at this point. But anyhow we got to the village late that night and that's when I found out - although the Chinese radio operator couldn't speak English, he had a Chinese/English dictionary and I was able to thumb through that and then he would thumb through it and I got the gist of the fact that yes, they did think I was Japanese. But anyhow we left the next morning and it wasn't until I saw Doc Rich and Ken Merritt that that's when I found out that Lacey had been killed. They both, for some reason or other had - they were within about 5 minutes of Kunming and yet they elected to try to attempt a landing and had they continued on, they would have been able to see the big Lake at Kunming within about 5 minutes. (break) ERIK SHILLING: About the same time that they were building the stockade around me, I decided to start unpacking the airplane and then… (break) ERIK SHILLING: About this time they started building a stockade around the airplane and myself… �(break) ERIK SHILLING: As the natives descended upon me and the airplane, they built a stockade around the airplane and they didn't seem to be very friendly and they even covered up the airplane with some leaves so it couldn't be seen from above and this was sort of my first intimation that I was being taken for Japanese rather than who I was, because they had never seen white people in this area - they were very, very remote and backward at this place. When they were building the stockade, I started taking stuff out of my airplane and when I offloaded my Victrola I decided maybe if I started playing that it would sort of take their mind off me. So fortunately, none of the records were even broken and I just picked one of the records out and it happened to be a record very appropriate to the situation called "High on a Windy Hill" and every time somebody new came up I would have to play this record for them. In those days you had the needle would only last one record, so you can imagine I had very few needles and by the end of the day you could hardly distinguish what was being played, but they would look in there and even feel and wondering what was - were there little men in there or what I don't know. FRANK BORING: After coming back from that incident… (break) ERIK SHILLING: Some people seemed to think and I really don't know - I didn't have what was later on referred to as a blood chit and had I had this blood chit it would have certainly been handy and we were later issued this blood chit which said that we are flying for the Chinese and that if we go down to help them and there would be a reward for helping us to get back to Kunming or the headquarters or notify some Chinese soldiers and so on. So it's possible that this was as a result of that but I don't know. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 6 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling describes the time he was ordered to pick up CW-21 airplanes and take them to Kunming when his airplane went down in a remote area due to engine problems and he survived among the native people. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ea722654a84e2f107dfaf378f67aa81.mp4 7b1c6ac3845e1bf1875d5012c3282e79 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7eed01bd4277bcfaed96b1fa993171d4.pdf b4ed7e105b45e63e9699b3d0cd6af8ea PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] FRANK BORING: What was the reason for your decision to change from the First Squadron to the Second Squadron to the Third Squadron? ERIK SHILLING: When I first got to the AVG I was assigned to the headquarters squadron and when it came time to be assigned to one of the combat squadrons, I was assigned to the First Squadron and I didn't particularly like Sandell. I didn't think that he was very much of a leader and I think that as far as pilot ability, although the guy is dead, I didn't think too much of his flying ability and I didn't want to fly with a guy who was leading the squadron. Then I went to the Second Squadron but I always wanted to go to the Third and I had some personal - although Newkirk may not have known it - I had a personal sort of a dislike for Newkirk as well. He was always I thought on an ego trip and when I finally got to the Third Squadron, I was quite happy. Besides I'd run out of squadrons. FRANK BORING: Let's go to January 17th and McMillan was leading a flight, this was your first taste of battle. Could you give us an idea of what this was like? ERIK SHILLING: On January 17th we were scheduled and ready to go on another photo recon flight and we already had the engines running and someone came out from operations and told us that there were three bombers inbound toward Kunming and so instead of the photo recon, because the airplanes were ready, we took off and �intercepted them almost 125 miles away. My first impression was that I could hardly believe my eyes, there must be some mistake that these can't be Japanese. I had heard other guys had the same feeling, that they can hardly believe it until they start into the combat and George McMillan was the leader, Chuck Older, the guy who was a Judge and Tom Haywood, the four of us and we shot all four of those guys down. I think that I may have gotten the leader because my thoughts were this. There were only three of them so I didn't have to worry about any others and I felt that if I aimed for the leader and just sort of let my bullets drift on back, if I didn't get the leader, I could get one of the wing men and actually the leader was the first to go down. I sort of halfway think that I may have gotten him. (break) ERIK SHILLING: When we intercepted these three bombers coming in and my first impression was that they couldn't be Japanese - I just had a hard time convincing myself that they were enemies, they seemed so peaceful and so forth sitting out there, but then as we got closer I could distinguish the markings on them and so we split, there were four of us and two of us on one side and two of us on the other, and then we started making almost simultaneous attacks from each side and as the one guy came in and broke away, then I would be following and break away and by that time the leader on my side, McMillan, was attacking again. So we just kept this up from both sides. The leader went down first and at that time, they had already turned and were going back toward their departure point. The amazing thing to me was, when the leader caught on fire and the smoke was pouring out you could see the flames and I passed almost right over top of him and I could look down and it looked like the airplane was almost red, it was so hot and what impressed me was the fact that these two guys, the wingmen hadn't budged an inch, they were still sticking in there and we sort of broke off shooting at them because we were afraid that the darn thing would eventually explode in our face, so it was after he started going down a little bit and the wing men then closed up and then the �other right wingman was flying on the other one and so he finally was no doubt about it, he was finished. Then the next one started on fire, smoking and finally the third one started and then I broke off first because I only had one gun left that was firing which was a 30 caliber wing gun and it sounded awful lonesome out there and besides they were finished then, so I headed on back to Kunming and I came over and did a barrel roll and all the rest of them did too. It was - it's difficult to really put into words your feeling at that particular moment. You know the adrenaline is going and things have slowed down sort of into slow motion and I guess it's the adrenaline that does that. (break) ERIK SHILLING: On my first pass I figured that I would shoot at the leader because there were only three of them involved and the distance between the leader and the wing man was quite small being in a close formation. So I felt that if I aimed at the leader and let my guns drop back a little bit I could get maybe both of them at the same time. So each pass I made I was at the leader and I think that I probably was the one that got the leader. FRANK BORING: What did you think of the Japanese pilots that you fought against? ERIK SHILLING: The Japanese pilots to me seemed to be extremely disciplined. It's difficult to say because you see a bomber formation - and I never was up against fighters - so a bomber formation and the pilots in that type of formation are a completely different type of man than the fighter pilot. FRANK BORING: What kind of airplanes did you fight against - did the AVG fight against? ERIK SHILLING: We fought against the - what we called - it was a little bit different than the military called them - we called it the I-96 which is a fixed gear airplane, and the I-97 and the Zero. Now we didn't claim any Zeros until about March. We never - in the combat reports they �were never mentioning Zeros being brought down over Rangoon. There was one guy by the name of Donovan, who had been in combat over Rangoon and the Zero was known as a Zeke and the 97 was known as the Oscar. So when he came up against the Zero and I'm convinced that it was a Zero - because he already was in combat against the Oscar. Now in his combat report he went into considerable detail telling about the guns and the type of tactics that he was using and the fact that it was - he even used the correct nomenclature for the Zero that the Japanese - which A6M2 - and he even used the correct nomenclature, which leads me to believe he knew what he was talking about. So it was an entirely different airplane that he had run across over Rangoon. FRANK BORING: Part of the danger in war is not only getting hurt, but also literally getting killed. Amongst the various people that you found didn't make it, who would you say sticks out the most - who affected you the most? ERIK SHILLING: The one person that hit me the hardest was Lacey Mangleburg. We had become extremely close during our training in Toungoo and the fact that he was on the same flight with me and when he tried to belly land his airplane and was killed and that affected me - I felt real bad about it for quite a few months later. I don't suppose it was until after the AVG was over that I really was able to forget about it. FRANK BORING: I'd like to go through a few of the people that you knew. What was your evaluation - or perhaps just look it from a personal point of view during that period of time - of Claire Chennault? ERIK SHILLING: I loved the guy. I loved Chennault. The other guy, Harvey Greenlaw, I think most of us sort of felt that he was somewhat of a buffoon. I had no - not too much respect for him. Just 180 degrees opposite of him. FRANK BORING: Do you have any comments about Greg Boyington? �ERIK SHILLING: Oh Greg I liked very much - when he was sober. He was a belligerent drunk and whenever he had a couple of drinks, at that point I would go to the other side of the room or separate myself, but I liked Greg very much. FRANK BORING: How would you evaluate him though as a pilot? ERIK SHILLING: He was in a different squadron so I really don't know Greg as a pilot, so it would be difficult for me to say - it wouldn't even be second hand because I don't recall anyone talking about Greg as a pilot. FRANK BORING: Why was he discharged - Greg Boyington or Pappy Boyington? ERIK SHILLING: In the AVG, which of course was known as the Flying Tigers, Greg Boyington - we called him Greg - later on when he was with a younger group, they started calling him Pappy, but we always referred to Boyington as Greg and I liked the guy very much although he was a belligerent drunk and every time he had about 2 or 3 drinks he would be wanting or willing to fight anybody in the crowd so I always - just before he got to that point - I'd leave. FRANK BORING: Can you tell us anything about his discharge or his leaving the unit? ERIK SHILLING: I think one of the things that probably caused Greg Boyington to leave was possibly he was somewhat like a maverick like Chennault and I believe that there was a personality clash between the two - this is my opinion, but it could be wrong - and I think that neither one wanted somebody else with such a strong personality and I really don't know the exact circumstances of when he left or what was the crowing blow of why Greg left. But he left I think in about April. FRANK BORING: Your encounter with Clare Boothe Luce? �ERIK SHILLING: I met Clare Booth Luce when I was in Cairo picking up one of the P-40's that I ferried back out to China and it was at the Shepherds? Hotel and she had taken some pictures there and we got to talking and I got to like her quite well. She was a very nice person I thought. When she came to China, it was right after I had made my ferry flight and the first time I saw her, I was in bed sleeping and she came and knocked on the door and said "I'm leaving tomorrow." I didn't have the vaguest idea who it was or anything else, but anyhow I told her to come in, then I found out who it was and the next day she took a bunch of pictures of all the guys and she gave me a complete copy of all the colored pictures she had taken and it developed into quite a nice friendship. I used to visit her all the time later on. - I would be getting into the future - that's why I stopped there. FRANK BORING: If you would let us know about the situation about the AVG toward the end of when you knew that your contracts were running out. There was the - July 4th was approaching. There was a certain amount of dissention in the ranks over morale missions that were being flown and then Bissell arrives and his effect on you. ERIK SHILLING: Toward the end of our contract, Chennault at that time was already in the military and Stillwell was then Commanding Officer and Stillwell was asking for certain missions to be run regardless of whether they were practical or not and on one particular mission that Stillwell wanted us to fly, was a morale booster for the Chinese troops and this mission was supposed to be flown at at least - not more than 1000 feet so the troops in the front lines could recognize the fact that we were friendly airplanes and not the Japanese. That meant that we would have no top cover because all the airplanes would be involved, we would have no warning and our only escape from the Japanese would be to dive away from a fighter, so we did not want to go on such a mission. Now if it were a strafing run to go down and strafe the Japanese in their trenches or wherever they were, there would have been no objection to it, �but to go down and fly - loiter over the front lines - we felt that we would be sitting ducks and I'm sure we would have been. We felt that he was willing to risk our necks to pull his chestnuts out of the fire and we weren't happy with that situation at all. So Chennault of course was under his command then and he had to order us to do what Stillwell wanted. But then, of course we weren't in the military so we didn't want to do it and finally it was resolved by a couple of the guys - quite a few of the guys volunteering for it - but it wasn't very successful and fortunately they weren't jumped. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 7 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling describes his first taste of battle and his impression of the Japanese pilots and airplanes they fought against. He also describes the loss of Lacy Mangleburg and his impression of General Chennault. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/63db44ada0258f43b7f8b18176721b35.mp4 f1c767cf4815c32d0090b19b9439d98c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fabaf85b4373b6922efb583599d936c8.pdf 2f0b6f56f359cd2b6751d172474e89f6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Eriksen “Erik” E. Shilling Date of Interview: 09-25-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 8] ERIK SHILLING: In Cairo when the P-40's finally came up and I had been sent to Cairo to ferry one of the P-40's back, Tom Haywood and I came back together and when we got to Tel Aviv, the next day when we were going to a place called Habenea [?], which is the airport for Baghdad, it was drizzle and rain and low ceilings and of course the P-40 didn't have any radio for navigating or making instrument let downs, so we felt that we would have to stay again and at this time, a BOAC airplane was there and it was a converted bomber and one of the passengers on board this BOAC airplane, incidentally was the Queen of Iran, who happened to be the sister of King Farouk and she was at that time the Shah's wife, but she didn't produce any men, so he went through a couple more wives. But anyhow, we found out that they were going to the same place we were so we felt that if we could fly formation with them, they said okay that it was fine. The only trouble was when we were asking about speeds and so on, they were talking about true air speed and true air speed and indicated air speed can be a great difference. So when they were talking about true air speed we thought they were talking about indicated air speed. So everything was just fine so we took off ahead because we were more maneuverable and we circled around until they got off and when they got off, we got down into formation with them and of course you can fly formation on instruments if you're tucked in close enough. So we were doing real fine until we hit a torrential downpour of rain and we weren't ready for it and we were too far out so we split and I told Tom to �climb 500 and I would go down 500 and so we continued on the same heading and about 5 minutes later we came into a great big round open clearing, although there were clouds over us and clouds under us, but we then went back into formation and really tucked it in because we didn't want that to happen again. But as we were flying along we were real slow and when you're flying real slow in a P-40, your spark plugs start fouling up and the engine starts running rough and we were having engine problems at that time and a little bit later on we ran into beautiful clear weather. So we told him what our problem was so we left him and went up to cruising power, which then eventually cleared out the plugs. But we were only about 15 minutes after that, that we ran into a damn sand storm and in the sand storm it just goes from the ground up and it was like a knife - this sand was being kicked up by a real strong wind and like clear here and sand here - and we tried to get on top of it and we went up to 20,000 feet and were still in it and so what I decided to do then was sort of head to the north a little bit and hopefully we could eventually run out of the stuff or pick up the Euphrates River and follow the Euphrates down to Baghdad and then the Habenea? Airport was near Baghdad. Fortunately about 20 miles short of there, the sand storm stopped just like it had begun and we were able to get into our destination of Habenea [?]. FRANK BORING: Let's go back to the Salween Bridge and if you don't have so much to say in terms of your actual participation, could you give us an evaluation of how it fit in the AVG history, in terms of China's history and how important that was? ERIK SHILLING: I flew top cover on one of the Salween River strikes and it was the only place I think that the air has ever stopped a ground force. It was a very narrow - the Burma Road is extremely narrow and many places it's absolutely impossible to turn a truck around or anything and they were all the way down to the bridge and the bridge had been blown. So there were hundreds of trucks that were trapped there and flew top cover because the P-40's that I was �flying only had two 50's and four 30's and we couldn't carry bombs - it had no provision for bomb racks and the P-40E's had gotten out there and they had six 50's, much more devastating for ground strafing and they also could carry 250 pound bombs in the wing racks, so they were the ones that went down and did the strafing and caught - I don't know how many - hundreds of trucks in the convoy there and the Japanese were stopped at the Salween and actually turned around and started retreating at that point. They never progressed beyond the Salween River Gorge for the rest of the war. Really what that amounted to was if they had overrun Kunming, it was very likely that China would have succumbed to the war and China - the people in China - the soldiers and so on were occupying maybe almost a million Japanese soldiers and had they been successful in taking Kunming and then of course Chung King would have been next - nothing would have stopped them then - that would have relieved almost a million soldiers to then go out on these different islands and actually it could have been an entirely different ending to the war or much more devastating as far as loss of lives was concerned. FRANK BORING: At the end of that period of time you had gone through all these experiences, you had major difficulties in overcoming everything from weather to food to you'd worked hard, you'd watched friends of yours die, you had been at the forefront of the war, could you tell us your impression, your reaction to General Bissell coming in and giving you this lecture about your role in the war. Give us as much detail as you can about that meeting. ERIK SHILLING: Bissell came over and I often wonder really what his mission was and I honestly believe that he was attempting to dissuade us from joining because nobody in their right mind would have approached us and tried to induce us into joining the Army Air Corps at that time. He wasn't that dumb, so I think that first of all he never said that we had done a good job, never recognized the fact that we had done a job well done, didn't ask us to stay and help indoctrinate the new pilots, to help them learn what we had already learned and it �just - I cannot imagine any other reason for him to act the way he did. He said that when we went home we would be faced with the draft board and he would see that we went into the Army instead of being pilots and he would absolutely refuse to give us any transportation back, although our contract called for this. He was just so negative that no one - only five guys and that was at the personal plea of Chennault, stayed. Whereas I think that had Chennault made the bid for us to stay, I was prepared, I had already applied for a commission and Bissell changed my mind completely. He was so intensely disliked by many of the AVG guys that some of the ground personnel had taught the Chinese refuelers - and the Chinese refuelers thought that it meant Hi or Hello or something like this and what they taught them was "Piss on Bissell" so every time they refueled an airplane the crew and everybody, passengers coming of would be greeted with "Piss on Bissell" and I'm quite sure that sooner or later Bissell heard this. FRANK BORING: I would like to sum up at this point - I won't say evaluation but your personal feelings about Claire Chennault. ERIK SHILLING: I found that everything he said was true. In other words, his word was never in my opinion - never to be doubted. (break) ERIK SHILLING: (break) Claire Chennault to me - there's only one guy I loved better and that was my father. He never lied to any of us. He always stood behind his word and I just - it's difficult to even know - when you like somebody as well as I liked him and I think almost everyone with just a few exceptions, felt the same way about Chennault. He was really a wonderful person. His appearance was 180 degrees from what he was inside. He was really a soft-hearted, kind guy, yet his appearance was - he was rough, tough and a mean old bastard, but he wasn't. �ERIK SHILLING: Of course when we left, everyone that liked him went over and said goodbye to him, but I then had the opportunity to visit him quite frequently because with CNAC, flying the hump, I used to go over maybe once a month or - we were always welcome in his office regardless of what rank or what he was doing, he's never been too busy to see me. FRANK BORING: What do you feel you personally accomplished during that period of your life with the AVG? ERIK SHILLING: That's difficult because after I left the AVG and started flying the hump, I really felt that I had accomplished even much more there than I did flying for the AVG. Because I've made in round figures about 540 round trips on the hump. The military would send them home after 25 round trips, so all of Chennault's supplies and everything - every drop of gas, every bullet that was fired, every bomb practically that was dropped, had to be brought over the hump and I felt that by the longer I flew the hump, the better I was at it and whereas the military lost many more planes and pilots on the hump, than our small group did because of the familiarity with the hump. FRANK BORING: Let's look at it from a different perspective then - just looking back on your life where do you think the AVG fits into history, into American history, into Chinese history? ERIK SHILLING: I think the AVG fits into a very small area when the whole world was tumbling down around the Americans. We were devastated at Pearl Harbor, we had lost Singapore, we had lost Hong Kong, we had lost the Philippines and there wasn't a bright spot on the horizon anyplace except our small group of AVG and this - the way I see it - the American people realized that once given a chance - what the Americans could do. �FRANK BORING: One final question. How do you react to being called a Flying Tiger? ERIK SHILLING: At one time I didn't think too much of it, but the older I get I'm quite proud of that. I think that looking back on it, the more I see everything - it's difficult to say but I'm really proud of being a Flying Tiger, but it's not that I think I'm better than anything, I just had that opportunity presented itself to me and I was fortunate to take advantage of it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Shilling_Erik_1991-09-25_v08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shilling, Eriksen E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-09-25 Title A name given to the resource Erik Shilling interview (video and transcript, 8 of 8), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Erik Shilling by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Shilling served in the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels" as a Flight Leader. In this tape, Shilling discusses the importance of the events at Salween Bridge, in addition to the AVG's place in American and Chinese history and his reaction to being a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a117a1c7c9da003f0d4ccb77b93bbd3.jpg 9ed6ccd57bfa0b93637c175839b32ca1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fore-Edge Paintings Subject The topic of the resource Fore-edge painting Painting Description An account of the resource A fore-edge painting is a miniature watercolor executed on the fanned edge or edges of a book; when the book is closed the art disappears, now hidden by the edge gilding. This genre of painting dates from the 1500s, flourished in the 1800s, and is still practiced today. Anonymous and undated paintings include landscapes, scenes and characters from literature, and portraits of authors. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Book Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV-02 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV-02_FE_003 Title A name given to the resource Erotic painting of a man and woman, and two horses in country scene Description An account of the resource Erotic painting of a man and a woman watching two horses on the fore-edge of a book of poems including "The grave" by Blair; "The elegy," by Gray; " "Prison thoughts," by Dodd; "On death," by Porteus; and "The night thoughts, & c.," by E. Young. Subject The topic of the resource Fore-edge painting Painting Figure drawings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1842 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books. ND2370.B55 G73 1842 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4b88c542402d60388e0a406683e751cc.mp4 04f1b21100bcb77f6b26fa0d1221d4fa https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0993a6ac77f7e63d735467a5dea01bd6.pdf d19651d821bf8ea10c27f63896057b27 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Vern Erskine Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Vern Erskine of Moran, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Vern, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in Allenville, Michigan in 1921. Interviewer: Alright. And what part of Michigan is that? Veteran: The southern Upper Peninsula. Interviewer: Okay, so the Upper Peninsula. You are up in the UP. Okay. Now, did you grow up there? Veteran: I grew up there except for the time I spent in the service. Interviewer: Alright. And what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: Farming. Interviewer: Okay. And what were you farming up here? Veteran: Oh, potatoes, all kinds of grain. �2 Interviewer: Okay. And did your family own the farm? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: And were you able to keep it during the Depression? Veteran: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Did things get difficult for a while in the ‘30s? Veteran: Yes. In the 1930s, it was very difficult. Interviewer: Okay. Now, and how many kids were in your family? Veteran: Four boys and a girl. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And were—and where were you in line? Were you— Veteran: I was the second. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And so, and how long did you go to school? Did you go through 8th grade or through high school? Veteran: Oh, I went through the 12th grade. Interviewer: Okay. And where were you going to high school? Veteran: In St. Ignace, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did it take you to get to school? Veteran: Oh, in the morning, well, it would take about ¾ of an hour I’d say to drive. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And was that a problem in the winter? Veteran: Yes. Yes. �3 Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they—would they close school if it was really bad or…? Veteran: Oh, they had their snow days same as they have today. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? (00:02:22) Veteran: Yes. On the radio. Interviewer: Okay. Was that at home? Veteran: At home, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And before Pearl Harbor happened, and because now you are—you are about 20 years old when that happens. Let’s see—had you been working by then? I mean, were you still living at home? Veteran: Gee… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was living at home I know but I… Interviewer: Okay. Well, were you working on the farm? Veteran: On the farm, yes. I think I had a part time in a garage gas station, just… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, before Pearl Harbor happened, did you pay very much attention to the news? About the war that was already going on? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. �4 Interviewer: Okay. And did you expect that at some point, we might get into it? Veteran: Not at that time. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, Pearl Harbor was something of a surprise then. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. And then, after that happened, did you want to go enlist? Or did you get a deferment? Or what did you do? Or did you just wait for Uncle Sam to call you? Veteran: I waited for Uncle Sam to call. Interviewer: Alright. And so, so you—when did you get your draft notice? Veteran: Gee, I don’t know. Interviewer: Okay. Well, I guess you were—I think you signed papers on—like in September of ’42 and then reported to training a little bit after that? Because that’s what your— Veteran: I believe I did. Interviewer: Okay. So, fall of 1942 basically is when you go in. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Yeah. �5 Interviewer: Okay. And now, once—and where is the first place that you report to? Did they say you have to go here? Veteran: Camp Grant. Interviewer: Camp Grant, that’s in Illinois. (00:04:19) Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. And then how did you get down to Camp Grant? Veteran: Oh, we dragged Daddy’s [?] to Marquette. We went to Marquette. That’s the first place we were inducted. Interviewer Okay. Right. Okay. And then— Veteran: And then we went to Camp Grant. Interviewer: Okay. And could you take a train from there? Veteran: Train, yes. Interviewer: Alright. And then, was Camp Grant just processing? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And so, where did they send you for basic training? Veteran: Camp Livingston. Interviewer: Okay, and where is that? �6 Veteran: Louisiana. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Close to Shreveport. Interviewer: Alright. Camp Livingston. Louisiana. Alright. And then how did they get you from Camp Grant down to Camp Livingston? Was that another train ride? Veteran: Gee, Camp Grant…Yes, it was. I remember that. Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Did you remember about how long it took to get from Illinois to Louisiana on a train? Veteran: Gee, I know it was a long time. Everybody was very uneasy from being on the train so long. Interviewer: Alright. So, would they let you off the train at all? Veteran: I don’t remember them letting me off the train. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, did they just have you sitting in the regular seats? Or were there bunks that you could sleep in? Veteran: No, just regular seats. Interviewer: Okay. And so, it’s a whole bunch of new inductees being sent off to train together? Veteran: Right. �7 Interviewer: Okay. And then, when you get to Camp Livingston, then what happens? Veteran: Well, of course we went to the headquarters and—where everybody was interviewed. And they kind of chose people for the infantry and for artillery and the engineers. The artillery IQ kind of decided whether they would go in the infantry or artillery. And I had a pretty high IQ, so I went in the artillery. Interviewer: Okay. And were you perfectly happy to do that? (00:06:44) Veteran: After I was there, well, seeing what the infantry was doing, I was very happy. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, describe a little bit the kind of training that you got there. I mean, what were the first few weeks like? Veteran: The first few weeks was close order drill. Forward marching, learning the orders and signals of the Army. Interviewer: Okay. And was there a lot of emphasis on discipline? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, very much. Interviewer: What would happen if you messed up? Veteran: Go on KP. Interviewer: Okay. And what was KP? Veteran: Kitchen Police. Interviewer: Alright. So…? �8 Veteran: Clean up. Interviewer: So, you are washing pots and dishes and— Veteran: Yep, washing pots and dishes and pans. Interviewer: Alright. And…I guess, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to being in the Army? Veteran: You know, I was quite young. And not too much experience. And it didn’t bother me much. Interviewer: Okay. So— Veteran: And more or less was something new to me and I kind of liked it. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so just sort of a new adventure and so you—so, did you just— would you just do what they told you to do? (00:08:21) Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And now what—when you got there, were you already training to become part of a unit? Or, I mean, were they forming a division there then? Veteran: Oh no, it was completely… Interviewer: Was just general at that point. Veteran: Yeah. �9 Interviewer: Okay. And then, how long did that first part of training take? Just sort of the basic training part. Veteran: Six weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And once you finished that, then did you get assigned to a— Veteran: I got assigned to—got assigned to the artillery. I did. Interviewer: Okay, now at that— Veteran: Before that time, we were with the infantry. Interviewer: Right. So, everybody gets the same training to start with and it’s— Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: Now, with that infantry training, were you firing weapons and things like that? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And do you remember what kinds of weapons you trained on? Just the rifle or did you get a different— Veteran: Yeah, we had the old-fashioned rifle. Interviewer: Oh, like the old 303s. The World War 1 rifles? Veteran: Yeah. �10 Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, you had the C—you didn’t even have the M-1 yet? Veteran: We got the M-1 when we were at Livingston. Interviewer: Okay. So, you get that eventually but okay. So, you do that kind of thing. Now, when you are assigned to the artillery, did you have an artillery training that you had to go through? Or did you just go into a unit and start doing your job? Veteran: No, no. We trained. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They had so many hours a day that they had to train me. Attend classes and… Interviewer: Okay. Now this is—there are a number of different jobs in the artillery. What kind of work were you trained for? Was it still—was it firing in the artillery or were you doing support? (00:10:10) Veteran: Firing. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And…Yeah, it would be firing and taking commands on—like they had—they called in ratio deflection when they knew that you had a change in direction. They’d tell you altitude when you knew you were changing the altitude. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And… �11 Interviewer: Okay. So, you are learning to adjust the gun to fire at different distances and that kind of thing. And did they teach you anything about the calculations to make? Or just how to operate the gun itself? Veteran: Oh no, no. You had to work on the sight. And they had classes on that, working the sight. Interviewer: Okay. And— Veteran: And also, they had an aiming circle. That was the main tool of the artillery was the aiming circle. Interviewer: And can you explain what that was? Veteran: It was an instrument similar to the sight on the gun. And the sight and the aiming circle had to be calibrated to each other, so they had both the same reading. And that way they got the direction of fire. Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you remember what kind of gun you were training on? Veteran: Oh yes, 105-millimeter Howitzer. Interviewer: Okay, so that’s the main artillery weapon really for most units that we had then. Okay. Now, was it a reasonably new weapon? I mean, it— Veteran: Yes, I say yes. Interviewer: Okay. So, it wasn’t leftover from World War 1 or anything like that. Veteran: Oh no, no, no. �12 Interviewer: Okay good. Alright, so you have got basically the kind of weapon that you will use in combat eventually. Veteran: Right. (00:12:19) Interviewer: Okay. Now, you started your training at Camp Livingston. Did you do all of your training there? Or did you move someplace else? Veteran: No, we’d take trips to different places. And where there was a firing range, we’d practice firing on the range. And even when we—when we were in the United States yet, we done that. And done the same thing when we were in Porthgain, in Wales. We whipped up a little firing range that was called Singing Bridge and we’d practice firing there. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But those firing ranges were still kind of in the general area around your base? Veteran: Yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: In driving distance, you know. Interviewer: Alright. Now, at what point do you join officially a unit? What division do you join and when do you join them? Veteran: I joined that artillery 107th Field Artillery, Battery B. Interviewer: Okay. And what division were they part of? Veteran: They were battery B of the 107th field artillery battalion. �13 Interviewer: Well, yeah, well that’s a—it would probably be 1st Battalion, 101st Regiment. [He was right the first time. The 107th Field Artillery Battalion was part of the 28th Division] Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But then that regiment—was that attached to a division? Veteran: The 28th Division. Interviewer: 28th Division. Okay. Just wanted you to say that on camera for me. Good. Okay, so you are with the 28th infantry division. And so, was that forming at Camp Livingston? And so, they are bringing all the men in there and all the regiments and training them all there? Veteran: Yeah, the whole division was there. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you mentioned going different places for firing ranges. Did the division go on any big field exercises? Like would they do maneuvers some place with other divisions? (00:14:27) Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Interviewer: And do you remember anything about doing that? Like where you went or how long it took or what you were doing? Veteran: Well, when we were in Livingston, we made a trip to Georgia and another one to Virginia. And there was other numerous places that we went. �14 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you got around quite a bit because the Army was staging large maneuvers and trying to get ready to—fighting for real. So, you were doing some of that. Okay, now you were—and so, how long do you think did you stay at Camp Livingston? Or when did you ship out? Okay, because your discharge papers say you shipped out in October of ’43 so you’d have been at Livingston for about a year? Except for the side trips. Veteran: Yeah, a good year we would have been there. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, during that year when you are living in Louisiana, could you go off the base at all? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Alright. And where would you go? Veteran: I went on furlough once to Washington D.C. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I come home furlough one time, for a few days. For 10 days. Interviewer: Okay. And I guess and so basically were you able to travel on trains for free? Or did you have to pay your own fare? (00:16:24) Veteran: No, you had to pay your fare. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, would you ever go into town near the base? Would you go into Alexandria or whatever else was nearby? �15 Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And what was there to do there? Veteran: There was stores. A lot of nice stores, Army stores and photography shops. Now, that’s where I got these pictures taken was at Alexandria. Interviewer: Okay. So, you actually had your own portrait made of yourself in uniform at that point. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did some of the guys go there to go to bars or go to movies or things like that? Veteran: Oh yes, yes. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah, so and would there ever be problems in town with guys getting drunk or having fights? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, they had—their MPs were on duty all the time. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you ever get in trouble? Or were you a good guy? Veteran: I was a pretty good guy, I guess. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, you know that’s a question you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. But okay. Alright. So, that kind of thing is going on. And now during that year when you are in Louisiana, are you following the news of the war and paying attention to what’s happening in the Pacific and in North Africa and stuff like that? �16 Veteran: Oh yes. We had the Stars and Stripes. And that kept us informed on how the war was going. Interviewer: Okay. And you were there for a year. Did you start to wonder if the war was going to be over before you got into it? Or…? Veteran: Oh no, no. Interviewer: Okay. So, it was still serious business. Okay. Now, we get to the fall off 1943. And now you are going to head over across the Atlantic. And did you get to go home first or did you just all leave together from Camp Livingston? Or…? (00:18:31) Veteran: No, no we didn’t go home. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Only had the one furlough. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, you assemble at Camp Livingston. And then what’s the process for getting you over to Britain? Veteran: Well, they…I remember we crossed the Atlantic. Interviewer: Okay. And what port did you leave from? Did you go out of New York or Norfolk or New Orleans? Or where did you go from? Veteran: Gee, I can’t remember that right now. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Was it some place you hadn’t been before? �17 Veteran: No, no we had been there before. Interviewer: Okay. So, you might have gone to Virginia and gone out that way. Now, did you—what kind of ship were you sailing in? Veteran: It was…Oh, the ships were built for the war. They called them… Interviewer: Like the Victory ships or…? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Yeah, so okay. So, you were not going on a converted ocean liner or something like that. Veteran: No, no, no. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We had a troop ship. Interviewer: A troop ship, okay. And then did you sail on a convoy? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And what was the weather like when you were sailing across the Atlantic? Veteran: Some days it was pretty rocky. I can remember one day it was pretty bad, and everybody got seasick. It was all a terrible mess. Interviewer: Now, did you seasick? (00:20:22) �18 Veteran: No, I did not. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how did you avoid that? Veteran: I don’t know. It was just my mind; I didn’t get sick. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And did—you remember—do you know—you were in a convoy, so could you see the other ships when you were out on deck? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Alright. And were there any U boat scares? Veteran: Yes. Yes. They—numerous times, they had a destroyer as the escort. And the destroyer would drop depth bombs [charges]. And we could hear them going off and vibrating all night on our ship. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Do you know if any of the ships in your convoy got hit? Veteran: No, but one day we were—I am up on the top deck, and I am watching and all at once the gun crew went into action. And they manned their gun and started firing. And looked to the rear where they were firing and there’s a periscope sticking out of the water. Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: So, we fired on that periscope and riflemen were firing on it too and they never bombed us, never torpedoed us. So, we must have done something to the—to their periscope. Interviewer: Yeah, or they didn’t—they realized once they were spotted, they shouldn’t stay there. �19 Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Yeah, something. Okay. Now, that’s a little bit unusual. Most guys do not have that happen to them. So, alright. About how long did the trip across the Atlantic take do you think? Was it two weeks? (00:22:13) Veteran: 12 days. Interviewer: 12 days. Okay. That’s about right for a slower convoy. And then where did you land? What part of Britain did you land in? Veteran: It wasn’t…Gee… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I really can’t remember where we landed. It has gone from my mind. Interviewer: Okay. Well, some people landed in Scotland and some of them landed at Liverpool. You could have gone to Bristol, I suppose. Veteran: I think if I am not mistaken now, I recall Liverpool. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, because that was on the west side so that’s a good place to land. Okay. And then from there did they move you down to Wales? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yes. �20 Interviewer: Alright. And so no you get there. It is sort of late fall in 1943. Now did you stay there until it was time—in Wales—until it was time to ship over to France? Did you mostly do your training there? Veteran: Yes. Yes, except side trips we’d make. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: Like I said before, we went up to see the [London] bridge and different towns. Interviewer: Okay. Now did you ever go to London? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay, and so what was that like? Veteran: Very different. The people were all nice to us and everything, but they had a different way of living and that was very honorable that you could pick out the way they were living. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you were not— Veteran: The one thing—well, one thing they…they didn’t have bathrooms. All they had was a curtain hanging up and everybody would run to that bathroom, and it would just be running down the curb. And I couldn’t get over that because… Interviewer: Okay. You must not have been in the right neighborhood. But yeah, okay. But yeah, living in a city with all of those people and stuff, that was not what you were used to. Okay. Now, when you went to London, were there air raid scares? I mean, did the sirens go off? (00:24:38) �21 Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do when that happened? Veteran: There wasn’t much we could do because London is a vast area. And we just would keep our heads low and… Interviewer: Okay. So, you didn’t go down into the subway system or underground or anything like that. Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, what was the area like in Wales around your base? What was that country like? Veteran: Sandy. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: A lot of sand everywhere. And in front of the hotel where we stayed in Porthgain was this—what they called the Esplanade. And it was solid concrete and they—all their—the doings of the city was held in that Esplanade. Well, we’d gather there when they had a formation. Well, they’d all let them out, you know, in formation. And we had to gather on the Esplanade. And you can imagine about 4 or 500 lined up on that Esplanade. Everybody had to cough and spit and it was a mess. Interviewer: Okay. �22 Veteran: And the city officials were complaining about it. And they tried to overcome them, you know, to refrain them. It didn’t do much good. Interviewer: Oh well. Alright now could you go into town kind of individually and in small groups and, you know, go to the pubs or…? (00:26:42) Veteran: Oh yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And how did the people in the community treat you? Veteran: Very good. Very good. They were nice to us. Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. Now, did some of the guys there have girlfriends? Veteran: Oh yes. Always. Interviewer: Okay. I suppose there weren’t that many British men around. At least not young ones. Veteran: Maybe I’ve got one story I could tell you. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: From Porthgain, all the men that were a draftable age or Army age were shipped to India. And there was no men in the households. So, I won’t mention these guys names but this one guy, he took up with this woman and she had a bunch of kids but very little place to sleep. So, she went and made him a bed in the bathtub. And, of course, one of the—during the night, one of the kids had to get up and go to the bathroom. Well, they pee in the bathtub. Interviewer: Oh. �23 Veteran: And they really, really soaked him up. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Now, he deserved it though I bet. Interviewer: Yeah, well he would have been better off back at the base at that point. Okay. Alright. So, you were there. Now, do you remember hearing about the D-Day landings? (00:28:24) Veteran: About the what? Interviewer: D-Day. When D-Day happened, what do you remember about that? And did that get announced, “Okay, we have landed in France now,” or…? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. But what I remember more than anything was the armada of airplanes that went over to bomb the beaches in France. And oh, there was all kinds of bombs. Just wave after wave of these bombers. And they were gone for a while and then they started coming back. And you could tell they had been in battle. Some of the wings were just flopping and the fabric was flopping away. Some of them didn’t have no but one engine running. It was a terrible sight when they come back. But they done a lot of good. Interviewer: Alright. And they also took the paratroopers over and gliders and all that too. Now, were you still in Wales at that point? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, do you have an idea or a general sense of how long it was before you went over to France? �24 Veteran: 12 days after D-Day. [The 28th Division landed on July 22, over a month later] Interviewer: Okay. So, you landed at D+12. Alright. And then how do they get you across the Channel? Veteran: Landing ship tank. Interviewer: Okay, so you were on an LST. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Alright. And did you have any trouble going over? (00:30:14) Veteran: Not a bit. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then what happens when you got to France? So, the ship pulls up— Veteran: Well, when we got close to France’s beach there, Omaha Beach, well…wreckage started showing up. And I know I couldn’t count all the bodies that were floating. Interviewer: Okay, so there are still bodies floating out there offshore 12 days later. Okay. Veteran: And the—they were recovering them, trying to recover them. But oh, it was a busy place at Omaha Beach. There was a steady stream of LCIs landing craft running back and forth to the ships, unloading the ships. But these were big ocean liners that they were unloading. But when we landed, we landed right on…Why, there wasn’t a foot of water to drive through. Interviewer: Okay, but you go right onto the sand? Right onto the beach? �25 Veteran: Yeah, set the ramp down. Interviewer: Okay. And get right off. Okay. And then once you are ashore, now what happens? Veteran: Well, we are unloading and of course our colonel come along, and he said he’s inspecting, you know, and looking at different trucks. And when I was on this ship going across the Channel, I made a good acquaintance with a master in arms. Well, the master in arms is in charge of supplies. (00:32:14) Veteran: So, you go down below decks and I’d just sit there and talk to him. And he was very concerned and interested. He said, “What do you think you will be short of,” he said, “when you get in France?” And I said, “I don’t know. You tell me: what do they need?” “Well,” he said, “you will need milk, powdered milk, coffee.” So, man, he gave me coffee and sugar and powdered milk and potatoes. Powdered potatoes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And man, I had it all on top of our truck, in between the cover. It was loaded with all kinds of stuff. Well, we are coming off the ship and the colonel there, he is there to greet us. And he lifts one part up and he says, “What do we got here? A bunch of gypsies?” And I never said nothing. I thought it was best not to say nothing. So, we had gotten a little dog when we were in Porthgain. A little pup. And of course, it was still growing by the time we got—and when he is there bawling me out for looking like a bunch of gypsies, out sticks that dog and starts to bark. And he said, “I told you to get rid of that dog.” That’s the last he said. We kept the dog for a long time until we got into Luxembourg. In the name of—it almost died there—well, the dog run away on us. (00:34:26) �26 Interviewer: Okay. Alright now, did you get to keep the food? Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Okay. So, he didn’t make you unload all the stuff that you put on you truck. Veteran: Oh no, no, no. He— Interviewer: He just called you gypsies. Veteran: I gave it all to the—we did run short of that stuff. And there was no delivery over there, especially then. And so, one thing I will add to the story was that the master in arms said, “Is there anything else you want?” I said, “Well, what have you got?” He said, “Well, I will tell you what,” he said, “I got cases of chicken. Canned chicken, all white meat and…” I said, “Would you give me a case of that?” And he said, “Yes.” So, he gave me a case of that white chicken. I took that and I put I up with the rest of the stuff. One time the colonel come down and he said, “What are we having for dinner?” And he was in a better mood that day and… “What are we having for dinner?” And I said, “Well I understand,” I said, “we are having pork.” “Oh,” he said, “that’s what every other battery is having too.” He said, “I got to find something else. I am tired of that.” So, I said to him—I said, “How would you like a nice chicken dinner?” And “Oh, where are you going to get a chicken dinner?” he said. So, I got out one of them cans of that chicken. Pretty good sized can, like a number 10 can. And I said, “Here you go.” I said, “Have dinner.” He thanked me and walked away. But he said, “Where did you get that?” and I said, “Remember that day when you said we looked like a bunch of gypsies up on the boat?” I said, “Well, that was part of the gypsy.” He never said nothing. (00:36:47) �27 Interviewer: Alright. Okay. So, once you land in Normandy then, how long before your battery starts to go into action? Veteran: Well, I will tell you we—like I said, we went ashore and oh, it was busy. There were just—and then up on top, when you got on top of the hill, they had these fences all built up and there were German prisoners of war. There were just thousands of them in that—behind that barbed wire. And well, while we were there on the beach getting ready to move out, well, over comes an ME-109 Messerschmitt. Right—it looked like you could reach up and touch him. And he’s coming at high speed. And everyone thought he was going straight for them. It was nothing but a scare mission. Down low, you know. Just revs the engine. He just revs it. But it only went over the once. ME-109. Interviewer: Okay. So, a single engine fighter plane? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Alright. But now did your battery—so you go up basically up the bluffs onto the regular level of the land in Normandy. Did you go very far inland, or did you set up pretty close to the shore? (00:38:24) Veteran: Well, they had taken Saint-Lo. Interviewer: Okay, well they take Saint-Lo—that’s later. Veteran: Yeah, down… Interviewer: But yeah, that’s some ways inland. Okay. �28 Veteran: Yeah. but they had taken Saint-Lo, the Americans did—had taken Saint-Lo. And we went down to Saint-Lo and there was bulldozers and tanks with bulldozer blades on, pushing junk out of the way so we could make it through. You know, this was still 12 days after. Interviewer: Well, there is—we didn’t get to Saint-Lo until latter part of July. But when Saint-Lo was taken, we carpet bombed it so there was just destruction all over the place. Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: And that’s what you are seeing with the bulldozers and all that. Veteran: Yeah, those bombers. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They really made a mess there. Because Saint-Lo was really a stronghold. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And… Interviewer: Now, did you do any fighting before you went through Saint-Lo? Or did you— Veteran: No. No, we didn’t. Interviewer: Oh, okay. Alright. Veteran: But then they took us in there. We bivouacked overnight. And I can remember getting on—there was a stream running through—right through the—where we were camped. A nice �29 little stream. Kind of fast growing. So, me being the explorer, I had to find out what was up that crick. Went up that crick about oh, maybe 100 feet or so. And there I come across 3 dead Germans. And that’s one sight that I never get out of my mind. One guy’s head was blown right off and all that was sticking up was the neckbone. And he was laying in the water. And I was thinking boy, we have been using that water. But that was one of them times of relenting. (00:40:55) Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: But… Interviewer: Okay, so this is going to be kind of more like late July of ’44 when that’s happening. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. Now did you set up and shoot from there or did you just keep moving? Veteran: No, we moved out farther. And we are getting to the hedgerow country. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And so, they moved us into this area and that was the first time we put our guns in firing position. And we had everything all set. Camouflage nets up in hedgerows all around. And they told us if any airplanes come over, you know, not to shoot at them with a pistol or a rifle or anything because it would attract attention to them. Interviewer: Right. (00:42:06) �30 Veteran: And they would come and really work us over. Well, we spent that one night. Well, then they—the Germans, they started firing on us from higher land. We were down lower. And boy, there was—there wasn’t no guns firing. Everybody run because it’s the first battle and they were all scared, you know. And I—he done me good. We had this captain—I won’t mention the name—but he was a smart aleck, and you couldn’t talk to him or nothing. And I’ll never forget. It done me good to see him go running like a dog with a tail between his leg to the rear. All just the thought of that, him running like that, and then thinking about that—that fellow they took before the firing squad from Poland. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: He wasn’t from—he was from America but he— Interviewer: Right. Veteran: He was Polish. Interviewer: Was that Eddie Slovik? He was the deserter who got caught. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And executed. I think he deserted twice or something. But yeah. Yeah, but okay. Now did the captain ever come back? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That’s the last time I ever seen him. �31 Interviewer: Okay, so you got a new captain after that? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now when this happened and everyone ran away, did you guys just wait for the firing to stop and then go back? Or did someone come and make you go back to the guns? (00:44:03) Veteran: I stayed on my gun. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I stayed right there, and I kept firing and firing. Interviewer: Did you have any orders coming into fire? Veteran: Oh yes. The firing direction was—they had protection. They weren’t under fire none. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. But so, there were some other men—were there other men who did stay with the guns? Veteran: Oh no. No, everybody… Interviewer: Just you by yourself? Veteran: That one gun out of 4 in my battery— Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: --was the only gun there. �32 Interviewer: Alright. Now— Veteran: And I was doing all the work by myself. Everything. And it’s a good thing I had the aiming stakes out or it wouldn’t have been operable. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, I kept firing. So, I am getting pretty tired and all at once I hear this voice say to me, “Do you need any help?” and already annoyed [I] thought who can that be? So, whenever I got a minute, I looked up and here was this redheaded fellow from Bowling Green, Kentucky. And he said, “Can I help you?” and I said, “Can you take care of that number one position on the gun?” “Yeah, that’s what I do in my gun,” he said. I said, “What happened to your crew?” “They are all gone,” he said. Well, him and I fired that gun. I don’t know how many rounds we fired but we had an awful pile of used ammunition anyway. Interviewer: Right. Because you have the shell casings left or the— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, alright. Okay. Veteran: And so, finally the fire—the Germans quit firing on us, and it quieted down. Well, this guy—he took over for captain. Well, his name was Anderson. Well, when he come up that’s the first thing he said to me. He said, “You are going to get the Silver Star.” And I said, “Well, that would be good.” I said, “Don’t forget my redheaded buddy there too.” And “I won’t,” he said. Well, that’s the last I ever heard of that except there was another time he promised me the same thing. And that’s when I was firing a different gun. �33 Interviewer: Yeah. Well, it certainly sounds like you earned it. (00:46:47) Veteran: Well… Interviewer: You know, at that point— Veteran: I’d like to have got it but… Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. Okay. Veteran: I wasn’t medal happy. Interviewer: Okay, so after this happens, are you basically in charge of that gun now? Was that your gun already or were you just one of the crewmen? Veteran: Well, that’s another thing I wanted to tell you. My section chief was—I was the corporal. I was the gunner. That was my job on the gun was the gunner. And I operated the sight. And so, that guy that was the section chief, he was the biggest coward I ever seen in my life. Every time there was a fire that went on anywhere close, he was in his foxhole. And even the officers, they called him “The Mole” because he was always digging. Interviewer: Okay. So, you were basically in charge a lot. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, so that was your first kind of actual experience in combat then, that day with the fire coming in after that. Now after that did you pack up and move someplace else? Or did you stay there for a while? (00:48:11) Veteran: No, no. We stayed there a while. �34 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we fired because that was that hedgerow country. The Germans were—they could still be there, and you wouldn’t even know it. And we stayed there for quite a while. And I had my crew. They came back and—snuck back after it was over, but…Then they moved us up into the hedgerow country more. And I can remember yet along the edges of the roads that went through that hedgerow was a regular windrow empty cartridges from machine guns where they fired from tanks and…And I mean a regular windrow a foot high. Interviewer: Now, did you see places where the bulldozers had cut through hedgerows or anything like that? Veteran: What’s that? Interviewer: Did you see—because they had—eventually, the Americans had bulldozers on the front of tanks, and they cut into the hedgerows with those. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Now, did you see places where tanks did that? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now at some point not too long after that, we do kind of start breaking out of the hedgerow country and you get into open country after that. Veteran: Yes. Yes. �35 Interviewer: Okay. And do you remember kind of where you went? I mean, did you go into Brittany, or did you go east kind of toward across France? Or what did you do next? (00:50:08) Veteran: I am trying to think of my—I am thinking that we left the hedgerow country. In my mind I am not too certain of that… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: …right now. But anyway, we went to Hürtgen Forest. Interviewer: Okay. So, you—that—to get there, you’ve got to go across France. Did you go around Paris or through Paris or…? Veteran: No, we went around Paris. Interviewer: You went around there, okay. And then you have to get across northern France and go up into Belgium and then keep going to kind of get to the German frontier, which is where the Hürtgen Forest is. Veteran: Well, along the way I know that we had—we had battles along the way that we had a position in. Interviewer: Right. In those kinds of battles, what would happen? Veteran: Well…We’d usually fire on them, go into position on some town. And usually, those towns are always on a hill. Almost every town there is on a hill or… Interviewer: Right. �36 Veteran: There won’t be too big of a town but there would be a church and a school and farms. And one thing about…They kept the farm—the farmers kept their cattle right in the basement of the house they lived in. And it was kind of an odd situation but… Interviewer: Yeah. Would you sometimes sleep in the houses? (00:52:14) Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, sometimes. Interviewer: Okay. And would you sleep with the cows, or did you go upstairs? Veteran: Oh no, we’d always be upstairs. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But the people would either be gone or… Interviewer: Okay, so basically you would go in and you’d set up in a town someplace because you had the— Veteran: On the outskirts of the town, yeah. Interviewer: Right. Okay, and then— Veteran: And we’d fire on that town on the—well, not on the town but on the Germans, you know. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: On their tanks. And I can remember one night we fired, well, all night long. And on the—just not too long a distance, a certain range—but we fired on that town. Well, in the �37 morning, it was quite early the sun was coming up. And they give us CSMO: CROWS Station March Order. Well, you’d pick up everything and your gun, you know. You’re moving. So, we picked up all our guns and everything, you know, and we moved, and we had to go right through that town that we had liberated, see, that night. Well, gee, the people were all out there to greet us. And I can remember it was just like yesterday it seemed…Well, these kids were all out asking me, “Have some gum?” Well, we’d always give them whatever gum, if we had any. So, this one girl come out and there was a guy on our crew, his name was Borovich. Well, he was throwing her sticks of gum and she was so busy picking them up that she forgot all she had on was a white negligée. White gown. Well, she’s running to pick up that gum and that come wide open. And Borovich was looking for gum all over the place. (00:54:59) Interviewer: Alright. So, a little bit of extra entertainment in that case. Okay. Alright, so this was not—so you were not actually bombarding the town itself with your guns, but your—but there had been fighting there. Veteran: The highway and… Interviewer: Yeah. But you had all chased the Germans off and they are all happy to see you at that point. Yeah. Okay. So, when you were going across France, would that be the kind of thing where you would set up and fire for a day or a few hours and then pack up and move again? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. �38 Interviewer: Yep. Okay. And then you—France, end up crossing into Belgium and the Germans mostly at this point are retreating until they get pretty much up to the German frontier. And that’s where the Hürtgen Forest area is. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. Now was the Hürtgen Forest kind of the next place where you fought a lot, as opposed to one day here, one day there? Veteran: We were stationed in the Hürtgen Forest for…Gee, I don’t know how long it was. Interviewer: Probably weeks at least. Veteran: At least. Interviewer: Yeah, and this is kind of now well into the fall. It’s getting colder and— Veteran: Yes. Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now what was—describe what it was like to be in the Hürtgen Forest. What sort of place was that? (00:56:14) Veteran: Well, it had the nicest big beech trees you ever seen. Big beech, you know, like 3-foot on the stump or more. And but mud, oh, there was mud. The Germans were dug in. Man, they had all kinds of protection, and the Americans didn’t have none. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Well, the 28th Division, the infantry and that, they just about got wiped out. Just about cleaned them right out. And… �39 Interviewer: Now, what was it like being in the artillery at that point? Did the Germans bombard your positions? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes, every night. And there was a—right behind me was an anti-aircraft gun. And the guy on the anti-aircraft gun, the sergeant in charge was a friend of mine. I mean, I made friends with him. We run across each other again. They were attached to us, and they all seemed to be close. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Well, I went back the next day to see him and to see what he was doing, you know, now. Because I had heard some explosions back in the night. I got out there and they were cleaning stuff up. And the gun is just sitting there just a black skeleton. Burned. And he told me what happened. He took a direct hit right in the gun pit. And he said, “Lucky it was there was nobody on the gun.” He said, “We were all doing something else.” And so, the commander of this anti-aircraft, he come and bawled them out because nobody got hurt. That was a—there was nobody on—he told me there was nobody on the gun, you know. “Well, how come you left the gun alone?” (00:58:49) Interviewer: Well— Veteran: That—I believe that’s the last time that I ever run across that sergeant from the…antiaircraft. Interviewer: Okay. Well now, did German aircraft ever come over at night? Veteran: Oh yes, yes. �40 Interviewer: Okay. So, they should have been on the gun? Or somebody should have been. Veteran: Yep. Yep. Yeah, there’s no doubt about there should have been somebody on the gun. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were in the Hürtgen Forest, did you basically dig in in one place and stay there? Or did they move you to different positions? Veteran: No, we basically stayed right in this one position for the war. Interviewer: Okay. And did you dig in and make shelters for yourselves? Veteran: Oh yeah, we had shelters. We took over a German shelter and—made out of concrete. And we stayed in that shelter. It was kind of a good place to stay. But I often thought the Germans know where this is; I wonder if we are safe here? Interviewer: Yeah. But it had a concrete roof? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, it is a proper bunker so that might have been hard to knock out even with the regular artillery. Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: A mortar wouldn’t hurt it. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Alright, now in your story we had gotten you into late in 1944. And your unit is in the Hürtgen Forest on the German frontier. And you were just talking �41 about the conditions there and you talked that you were in a German bunker, so you had a place to hide at least when you were under fire. Now what did they—how did they feed you when you were there? I mean, was there—did the regiment provide—have a field kitchen or did you just eat— (01:00:46) Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And so, how would you get fed? I mean, you are at your firing positions so…? Veteran: No, we would go one or two at a time and eat. Interviewer: Okay, so there was a mess tent or something or…? Veteran: They had a— Interviewer: Or truck? Veteran: They had this trailer. Kitchen trailer. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They had a fly up and then… Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: We’d go there. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, were there times when you couldn’t get back there and then you had to eat K-rations or…? �42 Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, we had K-rations and C-rations. Interviewer: Alright. Now, a lot of people these days probably don’t even know what those are. What’s the difference between a K-ration and a C-ration? Veteran: A C-ration, the modern one, is the World War 2 ration. And the C-ration is the World War 1, and it is in cans. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And you’ve got to open the can. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Whereas the K-ration is in a package. Interviewer: And was that mostly dry food or…? Veteran: There was gum in there, a stick of gum, cigarette for those that smoked them. I always gave mine away. And then there was a cold food, like some kind of sausage or meat or something like that. It was very good ration for being… Interviewer: Well, it had calories and salt and yeah, whatever. Okay. Alright. Now, did your own battery take casualties in the Hürtgen Forest? Or do the guys around you get hit? (01:02:47) Veteran: What’s that now? Interviewer: Did the men in your battery—did your battery take casualties in the Hürtgen Forest? Were there men who got killed or wounded there? �43 Veteran: Oh, a lot of men got trench foot. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because of the wet weather in…We were in the Hürtgen Forest. I don’t know what time, what day it might have been. General Eisenhower was going around checking the troops and so he came to our battery. And he’s checking because everybody—they don’t have no boots or nothing, just shoes. And so, what I was going to say was I got to shake General Eisenhower’s hand. He congratulated us and said what a good job we were doing. Interviewer: Okay. But did he get you any new boots? Veteran: Well, he went back to Paris. And he took every pair of boots that they had in Paris and sent them to the front. Interviewer: Okay. (01:04:24) Veteran: Which I thought was…And he had a nice jacket on. And he took that jacket off and gave it to one of the soldiers. But he was a real nice man to talk to. Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Now, when you think about that period there when you are in the Hürtgen Forest, are there other particular things that you remember about being there? Veteran: Well, I am—what I would like to say is I mentioned about the wet weather and everybody having trench foot. And there was a lot of fellows. There was—one fellow’s name was…He was a Mexican man anyway, but a real nice guy. And he had the biggest scar on his face I have ever seen. Right down it. And he had been in North Africa and that’s where he got �44 wounded like that, but he wouldn’t talk about it. But I don’t know whatever happened to him. He and I took a liking to each other, and he said, “Can I stay? Can I bunk in with you guys?” And I said, “Yeah, sure.” So, he come, and he bunked with us. And he was there from—he was with the foreign observing crew. Interviewer: Okay. (01:06:11) Veteran: And so, he would go out on these missions. And he went on three or four of them. He’d come back and he’d always talk to me, tell me. So, this one time they were going out on this mission, they are just about ready to go, and he come over to me and he said—by that time, we were calling each other by first name. And he said, “Vern,” he said, “would you get my bedroll for me?” he said, “I don’t have time.” And I said, “Well, what do you want?” he said, “Everything.” He had everything in the bedroll, everything that he needed. So, I went, and I got his bedroll, took it out to him, and I said, “What’s the problem? Where are you going?” “I am going to the front,” he said. And I said, “Well, you’ll be coming back. Why don’t you leave your stuff here? I will take care of it for you.” “No,” he said, “I won’t be back.” I said, “Why not?” I said, “Getting transferred or something?” “No,” he said, “I just won’t be back.” So, he went to the front with a lieutenant and a crew. It’s a little while later and we get a telephone call from the front from the lieutenant: Perez had been killed. And that’s the man’s name. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But there was a lot of happenings in the Hürtgen Forest. It was the 11th of November, Armistice Day. And we got up in the morning and oh, the weather had changed. You could see those—the sky was just as clear as could be. And everything was sparkling in the sunlight. (01:08:32) �45 Veteran: So, overhead there was a German plane circling around. You could see the insignia on his wings. He kept circling around pretty high altitude. I know he was taking pictures, is what he was doing. So, we watched him for quite a while and the anti-aircraft would fire and they wouldn’t come nowhere close to bursting him. You could see it burst into the plane he kept flying. Well then, he had gotten all his pictures he wanted. Well, all at once, down comes a regular snowstorm. A literature of papers. And it was—on it was: ‘We were about to die,’ ‘Give up now.’ Or words to that effect. Interviewer: So, he is dropping propaganda leaflets on you? Veteran: Yeah, a whole bunch of leaflets. They all dropped down. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I gathered some of them, but I had them in my collection. But they got burned. But we didn’t stay in the Hürtgen Forest long after that because the…The infantry, if I remember right now, I think Bonn, Germany is kind of north of Hürtgen. These infantrymen were all coming back from Bonn. They had taken Bonn from the Germans. (01:10:50) Interviewer: They probably are coming from Aachen. Veteran: Aachen! Aachen, you’re right. Interviewer: Yeah. because first of all—because that— Veteran: Aachen, that’s what I was trying to think of. Interviewer: Right. Yeah, because that was sort of the first city in Germany that we captured. �46 Veteran: Yeah. I am glad you brought that up. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But… Interviewer: So, they took your place in line? Veteran: No, no. They were just coming through. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But man, they—every one of them that you talked to had just wads of big money, German money. I got some there yet. And they had robbed these banks in Aachen. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And they brought that money back with them. It’s not worth anything anymore. Interviewer: Nope. And then is—and then you think you moved pretty soon after that? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And then where did they move you to? Did you go to the rear or just a new place in line? Veteran: From Hürtgen Forest, see that was in November. Interviewer: Yeah. And then in the middle of December, you are on the line in the Ardennes Forest. (01:12:09) �47 Veteran: The where? Interviewer: Well, the Ardennes Forest is where—for the Battle of the Bulge. Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Is that the—did you just go straight from Hürtgen Forest down the line to the Ardennes? Veteran: I believe it, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Because they—did they tell you that you were moving to a quiet sector? Or did they just move you and not tell you anything? Veteran: Oh, they didn’t tell you, you know, much about where you are moving to or anything. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Now, I am trying to think. See, I am mixed up I believe. Bastogne. Interviewer: Well, Bastogne is late December. That’s in the Battle of the Bulge. Okay, now were you—now, when the 28th division goes down to the Ardennes Forest, they are stretched out in a pretty large area. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: And they’ve got two regiments kind of on the line, and then the 110th regiment is kind of in reserve behind them. Now, do you know which regiment you were stationed close to? Were you with the 110th or the 108th or 12th? �48 Veteran: 109th. Interviewer: 109th. 109th, okay. Alright. And was that regiment up on the front line when the Battle of the Bulge started? Or were they in the rear? Veteran: Oh no, they were…They were on— Interviewer: Yeah, I think they were on the front. Veteran: They were a fighting regiment. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: 109th. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, did you have a couple of weeks in the Ardennes where things were fairly quiet? Veteran: Yes; yes, we—except for just the regular roll of life, you know. In the Army, it’d be going on. But it was pretty quiet. But now…I just got that World War 2 magazine here this week or last week and it mentioned the Malmedy massacre. You recall that? From Bastogne, close to Bastogne. Interviewer: That was some ways north and east of Bastogne. (01:14:40) Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Yeah, and those were some of the men who were caught up in the area north of where you were. �49 Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Malmedy was north of where you were. Let’s go to—okay, so you were basically—you go and were you in—do you think you were in Luxembourg at this point? The northern part of Luxembourg or in Belgium or do you not know? Veteran: It was Luxembourg or Diekirch. Interviewer: Yeah, that [Diekirch]was in Luxembourg. I think Clervaux and Wiltz were in Luxembourg too and those were kind of behind your positions. Anyway, okay, so you have a fairly quiet time initially. And then middle of December, the Germans start attacking. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And so, do you remember the beginning of that? Veteran: You know, that must have been when we were in Diekirch. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And Diekirch was kind of a—built on a hill like. And…The Germans were coming to take Diekirch back. They wanted to get it back for some reason I don’t know. Well…We fired on their equipment; you know. Got where we were busy. Well, man, they made a big attack and I mean they threw everything at us. (01:16:20) Veteran: And they had us surrounded. Well, all of a sudden, we get the order CSMO again. So, away we go. Well, like I said, the section chief we had wasn’t too sharp and was too scared to be—and especially like the battle we were having at Diekirch. Man…But anyway…We were �50 there, and we made a trip across this field. Walked across it. It was about a…oh, I’d say a couple miles. Interviewer: Was there snow on the field or was it clear? Was there— Veteran: Rain and mud and snow. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we get up there and it’s right at the—a crossroads, the main crossroads. And the Germans had that zeroed in. So, went up there and they said they would give us a position to hold. I am along this highway. And oh, one time these machine gun bullets started popping right alongside me through the dust there. So, man, I took off on a run. I found a—underneath this road—I found a big culvert. You could stand up in it. (01:18:30) Veteran: And I got in that and boy that time there was quite a few other guys in there too. Well, I am in there and there is an apple tree right out from that end of that. And we are shooting at that apple tree, getting apples. Interviewer: How did you get out of there? Veteran: Well, this—the battle kind of stopped. Everybody was firing on that intersection. You know, all of the artillery. And so, I am in that—sitting in that culvert. And this guy comes up out of the woods there, and I know him. He was a Ranger from the Ranger battalion. So, I said to him—I said, “Where did you come from?” “Back in there,” he said. I said, “What’s it like back there?” he said, “There’s a dead German under every leaf.” He said, “We really wiped them out.” Interviewer: Alright, so— (01:20:11) �51 Veteran: Between the artillery fire and infantry and the stuff we sent, they were gone. Interviewer: Okay. So, the Germans—you though they had you surrounded? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But they left? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. So, you didn’t get captured or anything else like that? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Alright. Alright, and then did you—were you able to stay in that town? Or did they move you somewhere else? Veteran: We stayed—we went back to that town after that battle on that intersection. And that’s when we got into it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That night…Well, right where I had my gun set up, there was an orchard. Well, you got to find out the minimum and maximum elevation. So, I turned that in and recorded it, made sure I had it recorded. And so, gee, that night and day firing—holy mackerel, it was terrible. Just steady. I mean, oh… Interviewer: So, firing coming in at you? Veteran: Yeah. �52 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And so, we were looking for a place to stay, see, when…So, there was a nice house just down from our gunning there. And some of the guys went exploring. They went in that house. And oh, it was a beautiful place. A doctor owned it. And I went down there and went up. It was about 3 stories high house. I went up on the top story, up in the—what they called the attic. And there was big piles of apples up there. Each one had been individually wrapped. Man, we had apples. But that night, we went right back in. The Germans started firing on, so, gee, we—they knew that we were going to be captured, you know. Because we didn’t have nothing to stop them. (01:22:53) Veteran: So, they moved out. And they took everything, you know. The whole battery moved with a Close Station March Order. And so, we went out through Diekirch and that’s where I got hit with that shrapnel. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Into my back. Interviewer: Now, was that from shell fire or…? Veteran: Yeah, from— Interviewer: From mortars? Veteran: From German artillery. Interviewer: Okay. �53 Veteran: And now that—I had that belt and I wanted to keep it and I don’t know what happened to it. But anyway, it was just about—the shrapnel just about cut the belt in two. Well, man, we— finally it’s our turn to move out of there. And we get out and we go down to where they had set up on a firm—another position. And so, there was—we start checking the ammunition. And they found out that they had 12 rounds of white phosphorus was missing. (01:24:25) Veteran: So, the captain asked me if I knew where that 12 rounds was and I said, “Well Captain,” I said, “I think I know where I could find it,” I said. So, well my foreman, the coward, he said, “Yeah, he knows where it is.” Man, I wanted to say, “You’re coming with me.” So anyway, I went back up there and got that 12 rounds of… Interviewer: So, you had left that behind? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: In the previous position. Veteran: And forgot it. Interviewer: So, the Germans could have been there by the time you went back. Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, I get up there on that—where that position was with the jeep. And we were going to load those 12 rounds and take them back, see. Interviewer: Right. �54 Veteran: Well, we found the ambush. I knew right where it was. Found the…and I think you know what white phosphorus is. It’ll burn a hole right through you. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Well, we are taking that white phosphorus back down to the gun, you know. Well, way down, I heard this—no, I am getting ahead of myself. I didn’t go. I stayed back. I had to stay back for some reason or another. And the rest of the men they took and went back down to the— to where the battery had set a position. And oh, were the Germans firing. Man, right in the bad part of that, all the people of that town were leaving. And it would bog the highway and oh, you couldn’t get through. (01:26:35) Veteran: So, another guy volunteered to stay with me. And I wish he wouldn’t because oh, he was just scared, you know. I didn’t blame him. But I heard this troop coming. I heard a guy giving commands, you know. So, I couldn’t tell whether it was Germans or…So, finally I decided that it was Americans. You know, I could understand. And I get out on that road from down the side hill and I said, when they get up the hill, I said, “Halt and be recognized.” So, this lieutenant, he come up and he said, “What are you doing here?” and I said, “I am waiting for a truck to come back and pick me up.” He said, “Well,” he said, “you see those lights around there?” and these flashlights were going on red, white, and blue. The Germans had a signal made up with us, see. And they were flashing them back and forth sending the signal. And he said, “You better get out of here,” he said. “Well, I am not up here because I want to be.” So, he got his men and they marched down. They took off the whole company. It was infantry. Interviewer: Did you go with them? (01:28:08) �55 Veteran: No, no I didn’t go because I had to wait for my…I am getting mixed up. That was before we picked up the ammunition. Interviewer: Oh okay. Veteran: And we picked up ammunition after I met him. Interviewer: Alright. So, then the—was it a jeep or a truck that…? Veteran: A jeep. Interviewer: Okay and so you get in the jeep and you get out of there? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, the jeep was loaded with 12 rounds of ammunition. Interviewer: Right. Right. Veteran: So, we took off down through that town. Interviewer: Okay, so just to straighten out that story a little bit. So, you went back to the place where the ammunition was? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Did you help load the ammunition onto the jeep? Veteran: Yes. �56 Interviewer: And then did they go away with that and come back? Or why were you separated from them? Veteran: I really don’t know why I wasn’t. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But I had—I was… Interviewer: But they had—but did they drive the shells off first or did you ride with the shells? Veteran: No, I rode with the shells. They were loaded. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: The driver and I—the driver of the jeep. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But somewhere in the middle, you were out there by yourself waiting for the jeep. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: And that’s when that happened. Okay. Alright. Well, you get back out of that safely enough. Now, after you get back to the unit, does the unit retreat or…? Veteran: I was happy to get back. Well, that’s another time that Anderson, the captain, told me I was going to get the Silver Star. Interviewer: Yep. �57 Veteran: He said, “Do you know how many lives you saved?” he said, “That white phosphorus is deadly.” Well, that’s when we went back to that town. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And he was [unintelligible]. I can’t remember the name of it. Interviewer: Okay, well was it a town that you stayed in and then moved forward from? Or did you move back from there as well? Veteran: No, no we just…We went into another position after we got out of that town. Interviewer: Right. (01:30:14) Veteran: I can’t remember. Interviewer: And then do you think you stayed there for a while? Or…? Veteran: Yes, we stayed there for a short while. Interviewer: And did the Germans keep coming after you? Or did they leave you alone now? Veteran: They were—they kind of left us alone. As I remember, anyway. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, you were kind of south of where most of their advance was taking place. You were kind of at the south end of the Bulge. Kind of at the corner, where you were, that was—and so if they were mostly going forward, then they might not be trying to attack in your direction so much. So, it gets a little bit quieter at least for a while. �58 Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Now, then do you start counterattacking or do you just stay there? Or...? Veteran: We’d fire harassing fire. They—all night long, we’d—the gun would be in position, you know. And they’d give us these altitudes and ranges of—and we’d fire all night long at certain intervals. And I think we done that for oh, maybe 2 weeks or so. Interviewer: Yeah, because that would have been while a lot of the rest of the campaign was playing out around Bastogne and then pushing them back again. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: And you are kind of staying where you were. And then, do you start moving forward again at some point? Do you go into Germany now or…? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Now…time goes by and we were—we are moving towards them to the Rhine. And so, we kept going. Well, at that time, I might be—mine was—the infantry took the Remagen Bridge. Well, we get down to the Remagen Bridge and we go into position there. (01:32:50) Veteran: And in that area where we went into position was a landing and a take-off area for these bombs that the Germans were sending over to England. Interviewer: Let’s see, were those the— Veteran: Buzz bomb. Interviewer: The buzz bombs, the V-1s, yeah. Okay. �59 Veteran: And at that ramp that was there, oh that ramp was—must have been I’d say close to a mile. A half a mile at least. And those buzz bombs would take of up that, you know, and... So, the infantry really tore that ramp that—bomb up. It was not—I had some of the parts for it. But I couldn’t keep everything that I wanted. Interviewer: Right. I was going to ask: during that winter when you are in the Bulge and you’re fighting and it’s in December/January, did it get really cold? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Interviewer: Did your unit have frostbite problems as well as trench foot? Veteran: I didn’t. I didn’t. The reason I didn’t was I had my mother and my dad send me a pair of sheepskin moccasins and I put them on inside of a pair of five buckle or four buckle arties [artillery boots] and oh, my feet were always warm. (01:34:26) Interviewer: Okay. Well, I guess if you come from the UP, you’d know something about cold. Veteran: I had to guard them boots with my life, though. Interviewer: I’ll bet. Alright. So, now you’ve made it—you’ve pushed forward to the Bulge, you have made it up to the Rhine River. Now, the position that you set up on, were you on the west bank of the Rhine? So, the launcher was kind of going up the side of the riverbank? Veteran: West bank. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, so the launcher for the missile would be like— �60 Veteran: The launcher was running— Interviewer: Going uphill, out of the riverbed. Yeah. It’s kind of like a reverse ski jump or something. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. And then, at the time you got to Remagen, was the old bridge still standing or just pontoon bridges? Veteran: Oh, it was still standing. You could get across it. But you had to walk it, though. You couldn’t drive. Interviewer: Okay, and why was that? Veteran: Because it was bombed and that—there was beams laying across it and parts of it were—they didn’t trust it, you know? Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But you could walk. Well, the Americans were already—engineers were putting up a floating dock. Interviewer: Yeah, the pontoon bridges. Veteran: Pontoon bridge. Interviewer: Yep. �61 Veteran: They were already putting it up. Well, it was nice there. It was nice. There was no firing going. So, this pilot in this observer plane, a Taylorcraft—well, I knew him pretty well, talking to him and…different times. So, he come looking for me. And so, he found me finally and he said, “Vern,” he said, “you want to go up over the Remagen Bridge?” and I said, “Sure.” “Come on.” “Well,” I said, “I got to check with my captain first.” So, I went over to Captain Anderson and I said, “Captain Anderson, I got a chance to go over the Remagen Bridge.” “How are you going?” I said, “That Taylorcraft there.” (01:36:50) Veteran: “Well, what are you waiting for?” he said, “Get going.” So, I went with this pilot. We went up over the bridge. And oh, I wish I could see—know how—to tell you the sight that you’d see from up above there. Oh, you could see the Germans in one place and the Americans in another, you know, and…So…They said that they had guards on both ends of the bridge. And that night, after things quieted down a little bit again, the Germans retook Remagen Bridge yet. They retook it right at night. Interviewer: I don’t think so. They might have told you that, but there’s nothing—that’s not what the records indicate at all. Veteran: No. Interviewer: They did counterattack, though. Veteran: Yep, they did. They took the bridge back. Not…you know, I mean it was just—they had it for a short while. Interviewer: Now, did you see that? Did you see that or did you just hear about it? (01:38:18) �62 Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Yes, we were right there. Interviewer: And the Germans came all the way across the river? Or…? Veteran: Oh yeah, they come back. And that was quite a sight. You know you can talk, but you can’t describe it, you know. But and then we—now, this is getting down into—it’s pretty cold, you know. And so, we are getting into—see, we had been—in November, we had been in Hürtgen Forest. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And December we were in Belgium and… Interviewer: Belgium and Luxembourg, yep. Veteran: …Luxembourg. Interviewer: Okay. And— Veteran: And… Interviewer: Remagen is March now. So, in February/March, you are going into Germany. Veteran: So, the Germans are—they are fighting to get back across the Rhine to get to Germany; back into Germany. So, we have got the guns in position and all ready to fire and—because we had been getting reports about activity, you know. And so, my telephone rings. I am not supposed to be answering the telephone, see, but like I said, the section chief gave me one of those. I wouldn’t need to hide it all the time, you know. Taking care of number one. Well, I answered the phone. And, “Let me talk to Vern.” Well, I knew right away it was Lieutenant Katz �63 so I said, “You’ve got Vern on the phone, Lieutenant.” “Vern,” he said, “we don’t have much time. I can’t tell you nothing right now. Do what I tell you,” he said. (01:40:54) Veteran: And I said, “I’ll be ready in less than five minutes.” “Okay.” Man, I gave the commands he give me, relayed them. And he was on the phone and he said, “Give me so many rounds,” and I fired. And, “Vern,” he said, “Don’t change a thing. Keep them coming.” So, I fired again, you know. By that time, he’s got battery ten rounds. Each gun in the battery fired ten rounds. Well, I fired and I kept firing, you know. And so, finally he gave them fire. He gave them—one command he gave them was “Keep them coming,” he said. No—"just keep them coming,” he said. Well, I don’t know how many rounds between the battery that we fired. And it was right on a barge, a great big barge. Interviewer: Okay. (01:42:11) Veteran: That was trying to get across the Mississippi. Interviewer: Oh, the Rhine anyway. Veteran: Across the Rhine, I mean. Mississippi... Interviewer: Okay. Now, was Lieutenant Katz a forward observer? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yes, he was. And so, he come back and then he was telling me about it. And he— “Vern,” he said, “I never seen nothing like it.” He said, “Them rounds were falling right in that big barge,” he said. And he said, “That barge was just packed, just loaded with shelling and are �64 waiting…” Well, different ones ask me always, you know, how many Germans I killed. Well, in a case like that, you know, none. Interviewer: Yeah. You would have no idea. Veteran: But that’s getting pretty close to the end of the… Interviewer: Yes, it is. So, shortly after that did you cross the Rhine and then move into Germany? Veteran: Yep. Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Alright. And in the last couple months of the war there, in April and May, did the fighting quiet down or were you in an area where the Germans were still fighting back? Veteran: No. They are still giving us resistance. They still give us resistance. Interviewer: Well, were you going into cities or were you in the countryside? Veteran: Come again? Interviewer: Were you fighting in cities or were you out in the country? (01:44:04) Veteran: No, we were out in the country. Interviewer: Okay. �65 Veteran: They got a notice that—this is getting pretty close to the end of the war. No treaty was signed or nothing yet but we had taken Paris. Paris fell; the Germans had moved out. Interviewer: Well, that was back in August of ’44. Paris is back in France. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: The German—the Russians are taking Berlin at that point. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: That’s the end, yeah. So, that may be what you heard about at that point? That Berlin fell. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Veteran: But now, I know this story I am telling concerned Paris. Because—you’re right, that’s earlier. But anyway, they took us from Paris and marched—went through Paris, the 28th division. Paraded right through Paris, right down under the arch. And went right out into the outskirts where Eiffel Tower is. And they said for us not to go over the first level on the Eiffel Tower because the Germans were sniping. We stayed there overnight. And I can remember yet the Frenchmen were out and they were gathering this clover, alfalfa clover. They were gathering it. And we didn’t know what they were doing with it. Finally, we found out that they were gathering and they were roasting it over a fire. And that’s what they made coffee out of, was that alfalfa. But… �66 Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so you did—so that was on your way across France, that you went through that part, went through Paris? (01:46:36) Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But now we kind of get to the end of the war, get to May of ’45 and you are in Germany. Do you know where you were when the war ended? Or when the war with Germany ended? What part of Germany you were in or…? What town you were close to? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: So, where were you? Veteran: Lauterecken. Interviewer: Okay, and where is that? Veteran: It’s in Germany. Interviewer: Okay, is it kind of in southern Germany or middle? Veteran: I believe it is up towards the middle more. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And did the fighting just stop at that point or were there still people shooting after that? Veteran: Oh, there were still—they are still firing after that. But we stayed in Lauterecken. Lauterecken is a train station. �67 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I’d say there is maybe 20 to 40 railroads running through it. Tracks. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And a really busy place. Well, they put us on guard there and so we are right by the railroad. And we’d see these trains coming and of course those trains had nothing but a hotbox in them burning. Whenever we seen a hotbox, we’d stop the train. And—because we knew the car would be loaded. (01:48:18) Veteran: And we’d stop the train and go look at what they were loaded with. And almost every time it was either fish or beans. And to get from the railroad station where we were guarding, you went over the bridge and up in the—we stayed in this school. And it was a pretty good-sized school. But one night we stopped a train. Of course, it was loaded with beans. And so, Ackerman says, “Well, I am going to take a case of those beans to the kitchen for the mess sergeant.” Well, he puts the beans on his shoulder, he starts walking. He’s got to walk across this dam to get across that river. He slips and loses his beans. Interviewer: Oh… Veteran: Well, pretty outgoing fellow, Sergeant Ackerman was. Goes and takes the gates out of the dam to raise the dam. Well, there was dead Germans, all kinds of weapons, guns and everything, thrown in that dam. (01:50:08) Interviewer: Alright. Now, at the point when the Germans surrender and you are in this area, do you start to see the German civilians come out? �68 Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. We couldn’t talk to them. Interviewer: Yeah, no fraternization. Veteran: No fraternization. Interviewer: Alright. What impression did you have of the German people at that point? Veteran: Well, I—the German people as a whole were good people. Almost every one of the civilians that you talked to—they didn’t want the war. But it was one thing they were forced, you know. Either do it or die. But as for the German people, they were good people. Interviewer: So, your guys got along with them pretty well? Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Now, did you stay in that area until it was time for you to go home? Or did they move you around? Veteran: We moved around but that was kind of our headquarters, was Lauterecken. But we’d go up to Kaiserslautern quite a bit. That’s a pretty good-sized town. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And we handed in our mail up there. And that’s where we got our mail was…And I remember yet, we’d take this tank and we’d go up to—up to Lauterecken from—go to Kaiserslautern from Lauterecken and we’d get our mail. And they just wanted us to move the 37caliber gun on the tank and, oh, they’d do about 70 miles an hour. And can you imagine just �69 going down the road with that wide open, you know. 70 miles an hour? Why, it’s a wonder we didn’t get killed but… Interviewer: Now, was this on a truck or…? (01:52:33) Veteran: No, on the big—it was a… Interviewer: Was it an armored car? Veteran: Armored truck. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, okay because there were armored cars, there were scout cars that were armored. Basically, small armored trucks. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, those could do 70 miles an hour probably. Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: A tank couldn’t but that could. Alright. And once we got to the end of the war, then they started to send people home. And a lot of them went home when they had enough points to be able to go home. So—but sometimes they went as a whole unit. Now, did your unit come home together or did you go individually? Veteran: No, we came together. �70 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And so, do you remember—and that was later in 1945? So, it’s still the same year? Because I think your discharge was October or something like that. Veteran: I believe it, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. So, how did they get you home? Veteran: Well, we went to this…Am I thinking right? Myles Standish. Camp Myles Standish. Interviewer: Well, Myles Standish—that would have been a camp back in Massachusetts that you might have landed at. Veteran: Yeah, that’s where we landed. Interviewer: Okay. Do you remember where you left from? Did you go out of Le Havre or somewhere else? Did you sail out of France or out of Germany? So, a lot of them went to camps that were named after different brands of cigarettes. (01:54:14) Veteran: Yes. Camp—I am trying to think of that cigarette. We were in a cigarette camp. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. So, like Lucky Strike or Marlboro or one of those? Veteran: Yeah… �71 Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, you go to north—you go to France and you sail out of Le Havre but you land at Boston, basically. So, you— Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: And they process you at Camp Myles Standish. Now, did they discharge you there or did they send you somewhere else to get discharged? Veteran: Camp Grant again. Interviewer: And back to Camp Grant. Alright. And then from there you get back up…Now, do you remember anything about the voyage back across the Atlantic? Was that better than the way over or worse? Veteran: Oh yeah, it was quiet. Interviewer: Okay. And were you still in a troop ship? Veteran: Yep. Yep, troop ship. Interviewer: Okay, so you do that again. Alright. And then you get home? Okay. So, you have gone off, you have been to war. So, you have just come back home again to where your parents are? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And then after you got home, what kind of work did you do? Veteran: Well, I didn’t do much of anything for…They had that policy. What was it? �72 Interviewer: 52/20? Veteran: 52/20 or 52/50. Interviewer: Yeah, something like that. 52/50 yeah or—well, 20 maybe—might have been $20 dollars a week, 52 weeks or— Veteran: Yeah, something like that. Interviewer: But they gave you some money when you got home. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. And then, but eventually you had to get a job. Veteran: Well, I had a buddy. He had been in the Army or in the Air Corps. And he never left the states or nothing. And he was working for the state of Michigan. Michigan State Ferries. And he called me and asked me if I wanted to go to work. Well, I wasn’t quite ready yet, but anyway I went to work. Interviewer: Okay. (01:56:18) Veteran: Well, I have worked for the Michigan State Ferries. Interviewer: The Michigan State what? Veteran: State Ferries. Interviewer: So, ferries as in ferry boats? Veteran: Carried the cars across the… �73 Interviewer: Okay, car ferries. Alright. Veteran: And I worked for them for…gee, I’d say four or five years. And I—they were political. And so, the ones that were politicians, they had the good jobs. And I was rated as an A and I was getting B pay. So, I quit. I heard they were starting a causeway on the bridge. So, I quit. And I went to work for Johnson and Green on the causeway. Interviewer: Okay. So, is that the bridge across the Straits of Mackinac? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay, so you helped build the Big Mac Bridge? Veteran: Yes, right from start to finish. Interviewer: Alright. Okay and then did you stay in engineering or construction work or did you do other things after that? Veteran: I worked on all the bridges. I worked on the bridge in the Sault. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I worked on the Mackinac Bridge of course, from start to finish. And…other than that… Interviewer: Well, but did you just— Veteran: And then now like in—later after the bridge was built— Interviewer: Yeah. �74 Veteran: I joined the ironwork. Well, I did belong with the ironworkers. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I was an ironworker until I retired. Interviewer: Alright. Now, we are getting close to the end of this tape as well. I want to ask you sort of one last question and that is how do you think your time in the service affected you or what did you learn from it? (01:58:49) Veteran: I learned to take commands and that the time in the service affected me hearing-wise. Interviewer: Yes. Veteran: I can’t hear out of my left ear hardly at all. That’s why I keep asking what. Other than that, it was a good experience. It is something. But one thing that did bother me: I am still fighting that war at night when I go to bed. I remember when I first come back, well I was staying with my mother and daddy in their little farmhouse and the Germans were attacking that. So… Interviewer: So, it stays with you in some bad ways even though it was mostly a good thing. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Well, this is—I feel very lucky to have the chance to meet you and record your story today, so thank you very much for sharing it. Veteran: Well, let’s hope it does some good; do something with it. �75 Interviewer: I think it will. Alright. Okay, so we are starting up again here. So, alright, now we are doing here an appendix to the interview with Vern Erskine because as we were here, the family members were here. They thought of different particular stories that he has told in the past that they want to get recorded here. You mentioned in your story that you had met General Eisenhower. Now, they also tell me that you met General Patton? (02:00:39) Veteran: Oh yes. I met General Patton. Twice. Both times he bawled me out. Interviewer: Okay…And why was that? Veteran: One time was in Wiltz, Luxembourg. I had taken my gun to ordinance because the recoil wasn’t working on it. So, I hopped into a truck and the driver of the truck and I took it to Wiltz. And got up there and of course we had to stay overnight. And so, the next day was about, oh, in the afternoon anyway. We started back to get connected back on my battery. And about halfway there, well, we met this jeep coming with 5 stars on it. Right away, I knew it was Patton. So, he stopped us and I jumped out quick, reported to him, and he said, with no other words, he said, “What in the hell are you doing out here,” he said, “with that gun?” He said, “Nobody around except Germans,” he said. He said, “Do you know you are surrounded by Germans?” And I wanted to say to him, well, how about you? Well, anyway, that was my one conversation with him. (02:02:29) Interviewer: Okay. So, was this during the early part—well, was this during the Battle of the Bulge? Veteran: Ahh, no… Interviewer: Was it after that or before it? �76 Veteran: It was after the Battle of the Bulge. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, that was—because the Germans had gone through Wiltz and they had pushed the 110th regiment of your division out of there. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: But then we—but for Patton to be there, that would be later because he comes up later. So, you pushed back again but there were still Germans around? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you just keep going and go back to your battery anyway? Veteran: Yes. Yes, I went back and I reported to the captain, told him what happened. Interviewer: Okay, so what was the second example—time with Patton? Veteran: The second time the snipers were really working. And anybody that had any insignia on them, they would give them—they were in charge—they were a target. Well, this captain or this lieutenant—Lieutenant Taylor—he come in and he was talking to us. And he said he wanted to go and look at something, so he wanted to know who would go with him, just walking. And we started out walking. Didn’t get very far; we meet the jeep with the 5 stars. And of course, Lieutenant Taylor, he had his Army jacket turned wrong side out so no one would know his insignia on it. No identification. Had his hat, all the liner, on. And we met General Patton. And that time, he wasn’t very nice at all. He asked that lieutenant, “Are you ashamed of your service? Don’t you want to wear the uniform?” And oh, we raked us all over the coals. Finally, he left. But… (02:04:52) �77 Interviewer: Did anyone explain to him why he was doing that? Veteran: Well, I told him, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But then… Interviewer: But he didn’t care. Veteran: It didn’t do any good to tell him. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now another thing that they told me is that there was a point when you saw a German pilot who was shot down? And parachuted into your position? Veteran: Oh…We were in a position on Christmas Day. And we have—and it’s a beautiful morning. The sun is shining but its colder than a son of a gun. So, overhead there is this German plane circling around. And he is circling around and, finally, we couldn’t figure out what he was looking for. Well, over comes two P-37s, Thunderbirds [P-47 Thunderbolts]. And they are loaded with 500-pound bombs, one under each wing. So, that German Messerschmitt—well, he took off after that. Them Thunderbirds—well, them Thunderbirds couldn’t stand a chance against—they couldn’t maneuver with them bombs. So, they set up a little defense by circling one another. They’d circle around that Me-109 and they killed time. (02:06:42) Veteran: In the meantime, they were calling for a pursuit ship to come. Well, just like an angel out on the sky and along comes this P-38 with a double fuselage on it. And he goes down and the Messerschmitt couldn’t outmaneuver him. And boy, he’d get on his tail and he’d fire and empty casings were landing right by us. We were picking them up. �78 Interviewer: So, he parachuted out of the plane or did he land the plane on the field? Veteran: Oh, easily. They were shooting at each other. Interviewer: Okay, but you said—but the Messerschmitt came down—the— Veteran: No, he didn’t come down. No, he stayed up there. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And he was circling around. Finally…Finally, that P-38 got onto his tail and they let drive with that fuselage and smoke poured out of that Messerschmitt. And out comes the parachute. So, when that parachute hit the ground, we were right there, right where he landed. And he was dressed, oh, immaculate. Oh, black polished boots on, just shining. Nice blue uniform, silk scarf. (02:08:33) Veteran: And so, by that time, the captain is over there with us. Captain Anderson is with us. And he questioned him, but he’d just spit. So, some of the guys said, “Let me take care of him,” you know. Well anyway, the MPs went up and got him and took him off. Interviewer: Okay. But basically, this pilot had an attitude. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you had that. Now, you mentioned that was Christmas Day. Veteran: That was— Interviewer: But it also mentions where you were the previous night, on Christmas Eve. �79 Veteran: Yes, yes. Interviewer: What was—what happened then? Veteran: Well, that…Christmas Eve—I think that was a different Christmas though. Interviewer: Okay. Well, you only had one in Europe. I guess, they were talking about you being in a hayloft or something and some woman bringing you cookies? Veteran: Oh…That was in Luxembourg. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And this woman—it was on Christmas, that’s right. She brought us big Saint Nick’s cookies. They were about 12 inches high. Really good cookie. Her name was Mrs. Ish: I-s-h. Interviewer: Okay, and were you just staying in her house or…? (02:10:18) Veteran: No, no. No, we were staying in the little barn out on the— Interviewer: Oh, you were in the barn. Okay. So, you let them have the house. Alright. Okay. Veteran: That was one instance but she had a sister in Chicago, she told us. Interviewer: Okay. And did she—so, she spoke some English or…? Veteran: Pardon? Interviewer: Did she speak some English? Or— �80 Veteran: Yeah, she could speak English. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, I guess you also spent some time in a hospital? You had— Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, I got food poisoning from eating turkey salad out of an aluminum container. And the whole battery was laid out. The Germans could have walked in and just… Interviewer: Okay, so was this something supplied by your field kitchen or was this just coming out of cans? This turkey salad. Veteran: Out of our field kitchen. Interviewer: Okay. Oh well. Alright. Anything else? Did you ever encounter Audie Murphy? Veteran: Oh yes, yes. Yes. Yes, I went to a hospital for treatment for something or another. I don’t—it wasn’t for…And Audie Murphy was there. And I just talked to him just a couple minutes, you know. Interviewer: Was he a patient at the hospital or was he now a hero, already visiting people? (02:12:29) Veteran: He wasn’t a hero yet. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But I didn’t know it was Audie Murphy, but after I got back to my battery and after, well, this—medics told me that that was Audie Murphy. �81 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay. Alright…Oh wait a minute, there was one other thing they did tell me about and that was that at some point you saw a German boy, a civilian, get hit in the fighting. Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, I was in…It would have been Luxembourg again. Interviewer: Was that after Remagen? Or you’re still in Luxembourg. Okay. Veteran: And we had moved into this position. Now, this is quite a long story. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But we fired on that town and finally they said, “See us at home.” We moved right up to the town. We get up to that town and all of the school children are all in their little black uniforms, long black socks. And they are all waving a little American flag. And they are waving an American flag. So, all at once, the Germans started shooting 88s and that little boy standing in line, waving a flag, was about like from here to you from me. (02:14:42) Veteran: And right before my eyes, shot his right leg right off. Just…tore it right off. Right just—I couldn’t believe it, you know. And so, we were still going up into position and they were firing those 88s. Oh man, and oh them things are terrible. They stood on flatbeds there just like a rifle. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They can be on a hill a mile away and shoot like a rifle. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, they can shoot a very long distance. �82 Veteran: Yep. Well, they came after—that missed me, that shot missed me about…like just about 3 or 4 feet. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Well… Interviewer: Did the shell explode or did it just go by and take the leg with it? Veteran: Well, it went—must—it didn’t explode. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It must have been shot with a regular round, you know, a heavy round. But anyway, they kept firing and they have the double barrel 88s, you know, firing. You’d duck down then get up and all at once there is another shot right behind it. Well, we were going up through this hedgerow, gunning behind. And all the guns in line were going into position by that other side of that town. Well, our gun got caught in that hedgerow. Well, the truck kept going and it rolled that hedgerow just like a coil until it let go. (02:16:51) Veteran: And but they kept firing. The Germans kept after us. Well, they had—they hit this next truck to me, this…I was number two gun and that gun was number three. And they hit the back end of number three gun and killed four or three guys and left I don’t know how many wounded. Well, and so, I am back behind this hedgerow. I just managed to get back there by the hedgerow. And I am looking out and there’s a guy laying in the bloodiest broken arm right here. Or bloodies—every time his heart beat, it would squirt up in the air. I knew that he couldn’t live very long. So, I didn’t know what I could use for a tourniquet. So, I thought well, I got my belt �83 on, I’ll get that. So, I put—I slipped my belt on that guy shot with a—almost cut in two. That’s where it went. But I run out there and I took my—that…everybody gets that’s sulfa to spread on wounds. Interviewer: Right. (02:18:41) Veteran: I don’t know what they call it but anyway, I took that and put it against that vein and then took my belt and wrapped it around and I got the blood to stop. And I grabbed him and picked him up. And he was a big man. And I brought him to the edge of the hedgerow anyway and I stayed there until the medics come and got him. And a few days later, we were still in the same position and the ambulance stopped and they are looking for me. So, somebody pointed out to a medic. The driver came over to me and he had my belt. Interviewer: Oh… Veteran: And he brought it back. This guy, his name was Lonnie Hughes. Well, he said, “Vern’s pants will be falling off,” he said. So, I had already got a rope and I had this rope tied around my pants. But… Interviewer: Okay. So, did that man survive? The man you helped; did he survive? (02:20:02) Veteran: Oh yes, he did. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Yep. �84 Interviewer: Okay. I think now…I think that’s going to be a wrap. So, I am glad we were able to add those stories. (02:20:17) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ErskineV2352V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erskine, Vernon L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-02 Title A name given to the resource Erskine, Vernon (Interview transcript and video), 2020 Description An account of the resource Vern Erskine was born in Allenville, Michigan in 1921. He attended and graduated high school in St. Ignace, Michigan. He was drafted to the Army in the fall of 1942 and was required to report for duty at Camp Grant, Illinois. Vern completed his basic training at Camp Livingston, Louisiana. He became part of the artillery in the 1st battalion, 101st regiment, which was attached to the 28th division. Vern was sent overseas to Europe in the fall of 1943 to serve in World War 2. He landed in Normandy 12 days after D-Day. He spent time in Belgium, France, Luxembourg, and Germany. He participated in the Battle of the Bulge. During his time serving in World War 2, he was involved in various skirmishes. Vern was able to meet both General Eisenhower and General Patton while in Europe. He left Europe in the fall of 1945 to return to the U.S. After discharging from the military, Vern returned home to Michigan where he currently lives with his family. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dffc29bb5c6001948863470a52c83108.m4v 790658918a58d424f83b312b3fca5229 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad68db824e7fb0fd51f3d46389a4419f.pdf 5a557bc1ad4549bb2f1be8b050579641 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Louis Kayo Erwin Sr. World War II 1 hour 9 minutes 23 seconds (00:00:38) Early Life -Born in Dayton, Tennessee, on March 1, 1925 -Moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee when he was 16 years old -Parents got a divorce when he was young -Lived with his mother and grandparents in Big Spring, Tennessee -Grew up on a farm -Picked cotton and corn -It was hard work and busy, but a great experience -Grandfather had a grist mill -Ground corn for other farmers, took a small cut as payment -Put “shoes” on mules -It was hard living because of the Great Depression, but they survived -Raised hogs for meat -Farm allowed them to be self-sufficient -Sold their cotton and tobacco -Had an orchard -Provided them with fruit for canning and jellies -Had no electricity or gas lines -Used oil lamps for light and wood for heat and cooking -Used their cellar to keep perishables cool, and a smokehouse to preserve meat -Got up at 5 a.m. every day -No radio (00:07:00) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 1 -Moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee, when he was 16 years old -Older brother joined the Marines -Served with the 1st Marines Division in the South Pacific -Louis joined the Navy to be closer with his brother -Older brother contracted malaria and was evacuated to Australia -Survived the war and is still alive as of 2016 (00:09:57) Start of the War -Had a paper route in Chattanooga -Learned about the attack on Pearl Harbor when he was throwing papers -Remembers recruitment posters being put up at the Post Office (00:10:54) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 2 -Enlisted in the Navy when he was 17 years old, on December 20, 1942 -Sent to Nashville for an entrance exam (00:11:22) Basic Training -Sent to San Diego for basic training on December 26, 1942 -It was difficult -Taught discipline and responsibility -Took swimming tests -Had to swim two laps, then remove pants and use them as a flotation device �-Did drills and went on five-mile marches -Anxious about when he received orders, and where he received orders -Navy needed crewmen for its ships (00:13:10) Assignment to the USS Bunker Hill & the USS Indianapolis -Initially received orders for the USS Bunker Hill, then received orders for the USS Indianapolis -The Bunker Hill was an aircraft carrier and the Indianapolis was a heavy cruiser -Taken by ship to the USS Bunker Hill at Pearl Harbor -Stayed in a barracks in a pineapple field until the Bunker Hill arrived at Pearl Harbor -Assigned to the deck division (5 inch guns) on the Bunker Hill -Received orders for the USS Indianapolis while he was on the USS Bunker Hill -Didn’t matter to him which ship he served on -Liked the idea of serving on a heavy cruiser -USS Indianapolis had 8 inch guns, 5 inch guns, 40mm guns, 20mm guns, and .50 caliber guns -Joined the Indianapolis in late April/early May 1943 -After the Indianapolis aided with the liberation of the Aleutian Islands -Note: The Indianapolis didn’t get to Hawaii until August 1943, but he may have received orders for the USS Indianapolis in early summer 1943. (00:17:28) Invasion of Tarawa -First major operation he participated in was the invasion of Tarawa in November 1943 -Remembers planes and ships bombarding the island for five or six days -Stripped the island of its vegetation -The Indianapolis had two catapult planes to spot targets and coordinate the ship’s guns -Note: Catapult planes: Smaller aircraft launched from the ship via catapults -On the day of the invasion, November 20, he saw multitudes of landing craft approaching the island -Craft got stuck on the coral reef, forcing marines to wade ashore under machine gun fire (00:19:50) Major Pacific Campaigns & The Invasion of Okinawa -Participated in the following campaigns: -Gilbert & Marshall Islands Campaign (included Tarawa): November 1943 – February 1944 -The Mariana Islands Campaign: June 1944 – November 1944 -Battle of Saipan -Battle of Tinian -Liberation of Guam -In February 1945, the Indianapolis participated in the bombardment of Iwo Jima -On March 24, 1945, the Indianapolis began its participated in the bombardment of Okinawa -On March 31, a kamikaze hit the Indianapolis -The attack killed 9 and wounded 38 (00:20:26) Repairs & Secret Mission -Following the kamikaze attack, the USS Indianapolis sailed to California for repairs -After repairs, the Indianapolis received orders for a secret mission to Tinian -Went to Hunters Point Naval Shipyard, California, to get the atomic bomb components -Departed from Hunters Point on July 16, 1945 -They arrived at Tinian and successfully unloaded the components on July 26, 1945 -From Tinian they sailed to Guam, and left Guam on July 28 (00:21:15) Sinking of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 1 -After leaving Guam they had orders to sail to Leyte in the Philippines -At 12:14 a.m. on July 30, the Japanese submarine I-58 torpedoed and sank the USS Indianapolis -For the next four days and five nights, the survivors were stranded in shark-infested waters -300 men went down with the ship, and another 583 men died in the water -Only 317 crewmen survived �(00:21:50) Survival -The life jackets they had were only good for 72 hours -Louis swam away from the ship once he jumped overboard -Last he saw of the ship was its fantail in the air and its propellers still turning -Joined a group of 250 men (Dr. Haynes’s group) -Only 56 of those men survived long enough to be rescued -Men started to hallucinate from drinking the saltwater -Imagined the ship rising to the surface, an ice cream stand, a beer vendor, hotels -Men died as a result of shark attacks, exposure, salt poisoning and thirst -Heard men screaming at night due to sharks attacking them -The goal of getting home and seeing his family again kept him alive -Had nothing to eat or drink -Saw high-altitude aircraft fly over, but they were too high to see them -Most of the men were covered in oil which also made them hard to spot in the water -The saltwater and life jacket rubbed his skin raw -Sharks came by every day -When they did, he held up his legs to keep them away from the sharks -Felt them brush his legs, and most of the time the sharks were only five or six feet away -At first, men splashed to try and scare off the sharks -Unfortunately, the sharks mistook the splashing as fish and came closer -During the day he prayed for night to cool off, and at night he prayed for the day to warm up -Covered in engine oil -Took off his pants because they added extra weight and pulled him down -Saved his socks so he could wet them and put them on his face to stay cool -When they dried they left behind salt residue which burned his skin -He would dip them in the water and put them back on his face to get relief (00:28:28) Rescue -On August 2 he saw Lt. Gwinn and Lt. Colwell’s PV-1 Ventura -They were the first to discover the survivors -They flew low, and signaled that they had seen the survivors and would go for help -Lt. Marks flew to the scene in his PBY and, despite contrary orders, landed to aid the survivors -Brought men aboard, and once the plane was full he tied men to the wings -Louis was one of the 56 men to go aboard Lt. Marks’s PBY -One of the ship’s doctors distributed freshwater to the survivors on the PBY -Each man was allowed two sips of water, then passed it onto the next man -When the cup was emptied it would be refilled -The USS Cecil J. Doyle arrived on the scene to pick up the survivors -Most of the men were too weak to climb the rope ladder on the side of the ship -Used rubber rafts to transport them from water or the PBY to the ship -Brought the survivors and the crew of Lt. Marks aboard the Cecil J. Doyle -Once everyone was aboard they sank the PBY -Weight of the survivors damaged the plane making it impossible to fly -Once aboard, they washed off the engine oil -The crewmen of the Cecil J. Doyle gave their bunks to the Indianapolis survivors (00:34:19) Recovery & End of the War -Louis and other survivors were brought to the island of Peleliu -Stayed in the hospital there for four or five days -Survivors placed on board the USS Tranquility (a hospital ship) -Brought to Hospital 18 on Guam �-On August 16 he and the other survivors heard about the atomic bombs and Japan’s surrender -Told that they had transported the components for the bombs that helped end the war -The survivors cheered when they learned that the war was over -Given buckets of ice cream to help regain weight -One of his friends, Ed Brown, also survived the sinking -They stayed friends after the war (00:39:17) Sinking of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 2 -He had just got off watch at midnight and laid down in his hammock when the first torpedo hit -Second torpedo knocked him out of bed -He ran to the port (left) side of the ship and began cutting down life jackets and passing them out -When it became apparent that the ship was going down, he jumped overboard and swam away -Last he saw of the ship was its fantail in the air and its propellers still turning -It sank after only 12 minutes (00:41:08) Coming Home -Came back to the United States on the USS Hollandia with other survivors once he recovered -Landed at San Diego -Greeted by Red Cross personnel -Survivors were thrown a parade -Men ran up to them and handed them glasses of beer -Issued new clothing -Given 30 days of leave -Went home to Chattanooga (00:42:53) End of Service -Needed 44 points to be discharged -Points awarded based on rank, dependents, length of service, and combat seen -Sent to Nashville to receive further orders -Assigned to Naval Amphibious Base Coronado, California for amphibious training -Sent to Naval Amphibious Base Coronado and a few weeks later he was offered a discharge -He said yes to being discharged -Had originally planned on making a 20 year career out of the Navy -After the sinking of the USS Indianapolis he changed his mind -He went to Memphis and was discharged there -Most likely in fall or winter 1945 (00:44:28) Captain McVay -Never interacted with Captain McVay, but Louis saw him a lot -Knew that Captain McVay, some sailors, and some Marines got on a life raft -Never saw them after the sinking because they drifted in a different direction (00:46:08) Father Thomas Conway -Saw Father Thomas Conway in the water among the survivors -Father Conway checked to see which men had died -He collected their dog tags, performed Last Rites, and removed their life jacket -Father Conway died on August 2, just a few hours before Lt. Gwinn/Lt. Colwell spotted them (00:48:00) Court-martial of Captain McVay -In the hospital, he and the other survivors were ordered to write a letter about the sinking -Their position at the time of the sinking, their actions, and general experience -In the years after the war, Captain McVay put together two survivors’ reunions -In 1968, Louis learned about Captain McVay’s court-martial and suicide -Court-martial happened in November 1945 -Found guilty of losing the USS Indianapolis �-Only time an American captain was tried for losing his ship in wartime -Used as a scapegoat for the Navy -After years of guilt, Captain McVay committed suicide in 1968 -In 2001, Captain McVay was exonerated and the court-martial removed from his record -Felt hurt that Captain McVay was tried and found guilty -He was a fine captain and did everything he possibly could -Note: Commander Hashimoto of the I-58 said Cpt. McVay couldn’t have avoided the torpedoes -He was a good man and he gladly served under him (00:50:10) Life after the War -Got married on May 4, 1946 -Married for 62 years -Had a son and a daughter -Worked for a brewer for three years -Got a job with a beer distribution company -Drove truck for them for seven years -Worked as a manager for 28 years -Has five great-grandchildren (00:54:45) Public Awareness of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 1 -The movie, Jaws, was the first major public exposure of the sinking of the USS Indianapolis -People started to ask him about the sinking after seeing the movie -He saw the movie -Captain Quint’s story about the sinking was pretty accurate (00:56:12) Reunions -Went to the first survivors’ reunion in 1960 -Remembers the men saluting Captain McVay when he arrived -May have given Captain McVay a ride to the reunion from the airport, but doesn’t remember (00:56:53) Exoneration of Captain McVay -Wonderful news when he heard about Captain McVay’s exoneration in 2001 -Survivors tried so hard, for so long to get his record cleared -Sorry that Captain McVay wasn’t alive to see it happen -Feels that the hate mail he received contributed to his suicide in 1968 (00:57:55) Public Awareness of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 2 -Believes that people didn’t pay attention to the Indianapolis because it happened at the end of the war -Media focused on the end of the war -Feels that Hunter Scott (an 11 year old student), brought attention to the sinking -Also helped with Captain McVay’s exoneration -Reunions help with public awareness -Survivors didn’t talk about the sinking until other people started asking about it -Finds that people still tend to confuse the Indianapolis with the USS Arizona (sunk at Pearl Harbor) -Believes that the sinking of the Indianapolis should be part of the US history curriculum -He goes to schools to talk about the sinking -Thinks that Sara Vladic’s documentary will bring awareness to the sinking -Glad the someone took such an interest in the USS Indianapolis -He was interviewed by National Geographic about the sinking (01:05:58) Search for the Wreck -At the 70th anniversary reunion, Robert Ballard expressed interest in searching for the wreck -Famous for discovering the wreck of the Titanic -Louis hopes that Dr. Ballard can find it and see what, if anything, is left of the ship -Also get some closure about the remains of the men that went down with the ship �(01:07:42) USS Indianapolis Memorial -Interviewer plans on erecting an Indianapolis memorial in Lansing, Michigan -Commemorating the 50 Michigan sailors that served on the USS Indianapolis -Hopes it will bring more public awareness about the sinking � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ErwinL1950V Title A name given to the resource Erwin, Louis (Interview outline and video), 2016 Description An account of the resource Louis Kayo Erwin Sr. was born in Dayton, Tennessee, on March 1, 1925. He grew up in Dayton then on a farm in Big Spring, Tennessee. When he was 16 he moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee, and enlisted in the Navy when he was 17 years old. He enlisted on December 20, 1942, and on December 26 he shipped out for basic training in San Diego. Louis initially received orders for the aircraft carrier USS Bunker Hill. He stayed on the Bunker Hill until summer 1943 when he joined the USS Indianapolis. He saw action at Tarawa, Saipan, Tinian, Guam, and Iwo Jima. In March 1945 the Indianapolis was struck by a kamikaze forcing them to return to the US for repairs. In July 1945 they received orders for a secret mission. On July 16, 1945, the atomic bomb components were loaded onto the USS Indianapolis at Hunters Point Naval Shipyard and they delivered the components on July 26, 1945 at Tinian. On July 30, the I-58 torpedoed and sank the USS Indianapolis. Louis and the other survivors had to endure exposure, shark attacks, and saltwater poisoning. On August 2 a seaplane spotted the survivors and they were rescued. Louis and only 316 other crewmen survived. After recovering on Peleliu and Guam he returned to the United States. He briefly served at Naval Amphibious Base Coronado before being discharged in late 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erwin, Louis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammond, Steve (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-09-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8380356e5ed2168858bf42366cc9baa7.jpg 848f6c80dd9276841886e5059c298a68 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_780 Title A name given to the resource Escort vessel chart Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Escort vessel chart, October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/721ba9924595cdc9a5a2a4daea45b7ed.jpg 1739351679e485d41f42554612b17859 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990 Title A name given to the resource ESI class playing field hockey Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001603 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Description An account of the resource ESI Special Education class playing field hockey on Allendale campus, with a Grandville school bus in the background. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Education Sports Students Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright - Non-commercial use permitted.</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca178fb931566331b28f89a05db3d655.pdf 8771be6ce4360bf82edf83fc8a54ac2e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections IntervieweOMOH: Esiloza Omoh Interviewers: Briana Burke Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections DatOMOH: 9/30/2011 Biography and Description Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Transcript BURKE: We are here today, Friday September 30th, with Esiloza Omoh at Allendale, Michigan and here to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. To start off could you please give us some basic information about yourself; where you are from and your family and some background? OMOH: Well, my name is Esiloza but I usually go by Esi. I am twenty-three years old and I recently graduated from Grand Valley with a Biomedical Science major. I was originally born in Legos Nigeria, and my family immigrated to the United States about thirteen years ago. And we lived in Chicago for about eight or nine years before I moved to Grand Rapids to go to school. BURKE: OK. So what about your family? Tell us about your family, your parents, siblings... OMOH: I have two brothers and two sisters and my mom was in Nigeria and my father recently passed away in February, so he’s no longer with us but he was also living in Nigeria. I have two older sisters, one older brother and one little brother. I have family, they live, I have two siblings that live in Chicago, one in Memphis, Tennessee and another one in Dekaib, Illinois. And they’re pretty much done with school except for my little brother who’s in college in Northern Illinois. So I’m the only one in Grand Rapids Michigan. BURKE: OK. So what about your ancestors and your community involvement? OMOH: Would you like me to talk about the ancestors first? BURKE: Sure. Yeah. OMOH: Oh, well I don’t really know too much about my ancestors. I do know that I have a lot of aunts and uncles. My father’s, my paternal grandfather married four wives... Page 1 �BURKE: Wow. OMOH: And my maternal grandfather married five wives? So I have a lot of extended family... (laughs)... yea BURKE: (laughs) Wow. OMOH: And we’re all related through my grandfather so yea BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t think we would call his wives step-mothers because they really weren’t step mothers they were just other wives. BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, yea. My maternal grandparents died before I was born and my father’s father died when I was about two and my father’s mother passed away when I was about six or seven. So, I don’t really know a lot about my grandparents or extended family and then at a young age I moved to America so I was removed from them I have no family in this country except for my siblings. So, I’m further away from them. But it was a good chance to meet them like I said in February. My father passed away and I had to go back to Nigeria for the burial and I was meeting cousins and aunts and uncles that I have never meet in my entire live before and I believe I have about eighty or ninety uncles and aunts and I’m not even gonna’ talk about the cousins .. . (laughs)... I don’t even know and its crazy cuz’ we all look alike (laughs) and its weird because it’s like I’ve never seen you before in my life and I’ve never heard about you and this big large group of people are family... BURKE: Oh, wow! OMOH: So... gotten’ used to that I don’t remember half of their names but we still keep in touch with the Facebook ... (laughs) ... it’s a good social media type of tool to use. BURKE: Right, Yea. (laughs) OMOH: But, yeah, apart from like my immediate history like I knew where I grew up... my father was the first child to go to school period. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: In his family, so he grew up in the village and um his father and mother were slightly, not slightly, but mostly illiterate. So he said that he was also the first child of all of the wives. So he was kind of like a father when his father passed away. So he had to go to school, he had to move, he left the village to go to the city to go to school because you have a better education there. And he went on to go get his college degree, his masters, his doctorate everything, he has so many different degrees in law and finance and everything. And um, since he became the father because Nigeria back in the day and still kind of right now is mostly male dominated BURKE: OK.. Page 2 �OMOH: So... when his father passed away he became the “husband” to the wives, so if anything they had that needed to get done they had to ask his permission. So he became in charge of sending his brothers and sisters to schools and his immediate brothers and sisters sent his half brothers and sisters to schools and be sure that they didn’t get into trouble and try and support them in what they wanting. So it was kind of... kind of weird because he came, he had his own kids which me and my siblings but then had twenty or thirty other kids also. BURKE: Right OMOH: Actually, I met an aunt that’s younger than me (laugh) OMOH: (laugh) So I was like.., interesting! So he, he has been taking care of a lot of stuff. So. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: Don’t really know too much more about his side of the family, I know more about my mom’s side of the family because they were more active in my life. And I have a lot of cousins and aunts there on her side also that I met more of when I went to Nigeria in February. It’s kind of over welcoming because it’s not like the customary “Oh, I have five six cousins or maybe ten cousins...” Just on both sides it’s like there’s sixty cousins here and then one-hundred and fifty here. Cuz’ each, each wife like say has like five or six kids, BURKE: Right. OMOH: And my mom was telling me back in the day that they tried to have a lot of kids so that they have more kids working and helping you around the house or the farm or whatever. So each, imagine, each child having six kids and then one of those six going to make six more... BURKE: Mhm OMOH: It’s a lot. Actually we only have, my mom only has five kids and that’s kind of small compared to her other brothers and sisters (laugh) So BURKE: (Laugh) wow OMOH: Not to many Nigerians these days have big nuclear family. Most of them keep like two three, maybe four kids. But kind of like I was learning the history here, down south mostly like it wasn’t uncommon for someone to have twelve, thirteen kids. I was like wow that’s a lot because usually because of lack of health care back in the day it wasn’t uncommon for a child to day in child birth or maybe three, four years old it would die because of some sickness... BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, everyone’s just poppin’ out kids (laugh) helped them out. So, just trying to keep my answers straight here, what was the other question you asked? Page 3 �BURKE: About the community involvement OMOH: You mean like my volunteer experience? BURKE: Yeah, anything! OMOH: Well, I try to stay, whatever community I’m in, I try to stay very involved. Like for example, I currently tutor math to kids at the Gerald Ford Job Court. BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t know if you’re familiar with that... its a center for at risk youth between ages of sixteen to twenty-four, where they usually go there basically if they’ve dropped out of school or they’re trying to reorganize their lives. So we help them get their GED or get their H.S. credits. Usually these kids are, like I said dropped out, or been gang related activity or been bused for drugs or something and it is kind of like a fresh start for them to get to live on the facilities so they don’t have to worry about housing because some of them might have been homeless or been in some situations where they don’t want to go back. So which actually made them go in the streets in the first place, so they don’t have to worry about food or housing. They don’t have to worry about paying for GED, pre-testing, or ACT classes so they get their GED, high school credit and also help them apply for college and also get ajob. So we also have training modules, like training to get a CNA positions or different trades. We also have a trade’s school. So I volunteer there, and I also work at Cross Roads High School, which is an alternative high school where kids also similar to the kids at Gerald Ford Job Court. Except these kids haven’t been kicked out of high school they’ve just been kicked out of their community high school because they got into trouble, violations, got into fight or were at risk or injuring themselves or other students. So they are trying to get back the credits so they can graduate on time or just graduate period, because some of them they’re still attached to getting a GED versus a high school degree. So we’re helping them with that and the after school program is from 2:30 to 5:45, I’d say 5:45, so that after they get from school we provide them with another snack because some kids don’t have food at home. So we give them that, and then we have some kind of activity to make them involved and show them that you can still have fun without any violence or illegal activities. hat word am I looking for? Incorporate to their activities that they do. And then we give them free time from them to either play basketball or we bring out the wii system or something so that we can also reinforce so that the healthy living aspect to where you have to have some healthy physical activity so you have a healthy youth. Excuse me, so after that we also give them a school bus system to get back home so they don’t have to get on the city bus where they might meet somebody that they might get into a fight with. Again because these kids, we try to get them out of their atmosphere of violence and from that community of people they might know of people that might make them go back to their habits. And what else do I do... I used to do a lot more when I was at Grand Valley because I had a lot more time but now I try to be limiting my volunteer activities to a minimum so I can actually get a job. So apart from that, that’s basically what I do... Oh Yea! I have one more thing actually, I might become affiliated with west Michigan non-profit something.. .collation for a non-racist environment. Where we are basically going to be pushing different initiatives for students and community members to become familiar with the effects of racism, poverty, homelessness and all of that and seeing how we can come together as a community strengthening Page 4 �ourselves and help the less fortunate. So... there’s a lot of words in the title, I’m gonna get it right one day. But that’s what I’m looking into becoming involved with, actually I had an interview for that today so, I try to stay involved in my community. BURKE: Very cool, so now do you want to tell us about your actually move to the United States? Like what was that like for you and your family? OMOH: Oh, yea I could do that. I can’t even explain it, we went from being overwhelmed, and to culture shocked to a whole different sensations it smelt different here. I grew up around a lot of trees so we had fresh air and then coming into Chicago you could smell the congestion. We have European people in Nigeria so I didn’t really come across someone who wasn’t black. So either most people were black or brown or some variation of that skin tone. So coming here where I saw white, I saw Asian I saw Hispanic and a whole bunch I was like ‘oh my gosh people look so different!” I used to go like, I came here in the fifth grade, so I used to touch peoples hair a lot which in America I learned there is personal space (laugh) OMOH: You can’t just touch people hair! Cuz I’ve never touched anyone else’s hair that wasn’t like mine. I thought it was amazing when I first saw somebody with green eyes. It was kind of scary because I couldn’t believe somebody had colored eyes! (laugh) But I mean in Nigeria we have cable we weren’t like back woods people. I’ve seen on TV that people have blonde hair but I’ve never in real life seen the green and blue eyes except for like brown eyes. So that was amazing! And then I finally got to eat pizza! So when I was younger we had cartoon network in Nigeria and I used to wish I had this magic ring (giggle) where, cuz you have the Chucky Cheese commercials, I would just rub and pizza would appear! (laugh) So (lots of laughing!) OMOH: So my first experience with American food, when we got off the plane my Uncle picked us up, and we went to McDonalds. And my brother had chicken nuggets, which he thought, was like foods from the Gods (laugh) and then I had pizza! It took me awhile to get used to it, I wasn’t expecting it to be as wet, with the sauce! BURKE: Right! OMOH: Because on TV I saw like oh yea pizza cheesy but I didn’t expect the sauce! So I got used to that, but the food its, well for a lot of time I wouldn’t eat chicken here because I don’t know if you guys grew up on a farm or seen what an actual chicken looks like and a farm not like genetically enhanced, a chicken is very smaller than the chicken in Mejier! So I was just thinking this chicken is nasty like on drugs! Cuz it wasn’t like chicken in Nigeria! (laughter from both) And then eggs are like white! I grew up eating brown eggs! So I was like “oh my gosh!” The chicken and the eggs are different in America! So I didn’t wanna’ eat that. The water tasted so different, because in Nigeria we can’t just drink water out of the faucet. Ya know, like we have to get water from the tap, boil it and let it cool down then scoop the top because all the sediments sink to the bottom so you don’t get sick. So you take the scoop from top and put it in the refrigerator. So I had a ball drinking water from the tap! (laughter) Page 5 �It’s just the little things people take for granted. And then we came like around August, and then two months later it started snowing. I had never seen snow in my entire life! So (laughter) grown adults, me, my mom, my dad, brothers and sisters we just went outside and stood in the snow and had like our tongues out, the snows dripping and people are walking outside Chicago and was like what’s wrong with these people? Little did they know we had never seen snow before! So that’s one of the experiences I had in America, one of the few things that I do cherish. what else shocked me? Before coming to America I had never been on a plane before. BURKE: Really? OMOH: So we had one of the longest flights ever so I boarded and the plane’s flight was like sixteen hours. And so we finally came here and potato chips, never had potato chips before. when we talk about chips, at least in my family; we refer to potato’s that have been cut up, like homemade fries. But never had potato chips so experiencing the whole cookies and all those junk food because we weren’t really big on junk food. Especially not in my village at least, we had candy but the candy we had was like one hundred times less sugary (laughter) then the candy here. Like one jolly rancher is like three packs of candy in the ones I grew up with. So getting sugar, my first ever sugar rush was amazing! (laughter) What else did I go through? like I said the culture shock , in reference to culture shock they always talk about like for an example stereotypical white person teaching them to deal with the black person . So you might go to college, you might see more Native Americans or Hispanics but they never really talk about the reverse. like they always take for granted just because you’re a minority you’re “diversified.” And that’s not true at all! Because I went through a culture shock, the biggest culture shock of my life when I came to America! Seeing so many different languages, so many different cultures, so many people that look so different! Because I feel that and culture is not about race; it’s about who you are what you have to bring, it’s about music, it’s about culture, it’s about your perspective and I had a very ignorant perspective on life. I knew based on TV that there was American’s, there were Europeans that looked different but based on TV I had never been to America before. I always saw, I always thought that everybody in America was rich, everybody was white, mostly, and that everybody was happy. And then my reference to black American’s was that they were always fighting amongst each other, only wanted to do rap and didn’t want anything to do with good things. And I came from that by watching TV! because we got CNN in Nigeria and we get cable so I see all these movies and a typical movie black people are in usually for a while they had all those movies in the nineties that came out about that it was always, always the black high school student and here comes the white teacher in to save the horrible kids and so they can go to school and try to help them read, that’s all the movies that we had! And on TV we saw that black people was always wanting to shoot and blood related movies and then you turned on MTV and always saw black people rapping so that’s what our view was. And it was very ignorant. I never knew the first black person that I met, the first black American that I met I asked him. It was very ignorant and I offended a lot of people. But I mean, I tried to apologize like I’m sorry I just came to America I don’t know what’s going on. And then the reverse thing happened. I used to feel really bad for being ignorant but then I stopped because (laughter) America is ignorant too. I had people tell me, not ask, tell me that, (I think I’ve told you this before) that I was a savage and that all my people lived in caves and we walk around naked and we hunt our own food. And I said regardless, I don’t know what part of Africa does that, I’m sure there’s some people who hunt their own foods but in Nigeria we Page 6 �have supermarkets (laughter) and we have forks and knifes and we also live in houses. There some people who don’t live under a house or an attached roofs, they might be poor they might live in an area where they are using their resources. Like in the village our house was made from clay. the red sand and then you mold that into brick and everything and used that. Why would you spend thousands, our currency is not that, but why would you spend thousands or Nira to ship cement from the city or buy cement blocks when you could just use your resources. BURKE: Right. OMOH: But, from an outsider looking in, because it’s not cement or plaster or whatever we are poor. So I was told that and it was very, well really shocke me was my experience with black American and white American’s. And I hate to always say black and white, I know there’s Hispanics and Asian decent but my experience mostly is with black and white. And I was really shocked when my white friends, I had to keep saying white, um do you prefer Caucasian? BURKE: No you’re fine OMOH: (laughter) Sorry, I don’t wanna offend anybody! (laughter) My experience with white people is so much more better than my experience with black people. It was not until I attending college here that I saw black people were “not as friendly.” I started learning about America’s history, black history, the black on black crime, the hatred, and all the things going up to the typical black male the typical black woman. And I had a lot of black people tell me to go back to Africa. That, they hated me because they thought that I didn’t know their heritage so they hated me based on relationships with other Africans who previously had said they weren’t real “blacks” because they didn’t know their mother land or something like that. So, growing up in American I gravitated more towards the Hispanics, the Whites, people from Asian descent, and really stayed away from black people until I came to high school. I had no choice I grew up in an all-black neighborhood, and I was referred to as “African booty scratcher.” I don’t even know what that means! Like you have to be African to scratch you’re booty!? BURKE: (laughter) I don’t know! (laughter) OMOH: I don’t understand! (laughter) So, I was referred to as “African booty scratcher” and other derogatory words and they would hate me on site. BURKE: (sorrowful) wow. OMOH: Not just I don’t like you. This is hate, hatred. And they always say when you think about racism, what do you think of? Do you think of white racist against blacks? They don’t really talk about black racists against white or black racist against black. And its racism, it’s not a dislike when an African doesn’t like an African American or vice versa. So, I never dealt with racism my entire life growing up in Nigeria. And I’m sure, there’s there is rivalries between each clan or the most I ever dealt with in Nigeria was like how the Christians and Muslims and the religious wars but at far as race it can’t really be racism because we are all the same race! We just have different ethnicities. BURKE: Right, OK. Page 7 �OMOH: Coming to America, I’d never hear of anybody hating on site just based on your skin color. And I had more racism from the black American’s and til this day I’ve still had more racism on black Americans ever then on white Americans! And, I can’t understand that because reading in the textbooks or I have a lot of African American classes and a lot of African American professors they talked to be about their struggles and I learned that I’m very appreciative to learn about the history. But they never really touch on it and what I would like to know more about is why black people might see African’s as a threat? But yea that would be my experience with culture shock. I don’t know I kind of rambled on a little bit (laughter) BURKE: (polite) That’s OK. So do you… off of what you said do you ever remember family members or any other friends being like specifically being discriminated against, like in your education, or employment or socially? Something like that have an effect on you? OMOH: Yeah. I mean I grew up in an all-black neighborhood and I saw, I saw it all. Especially, like, I grew up on the south side of Chicago so I don’t think I sound like I’m from Chicago; I’ve adopted this generic accent, American accent. I learned early on and also my family members did that if you do not speak correct American English it can be seen as a weakness, as a form of you as a dark tally against your intelligence. So, our family incorporated this accent, so that we could blend it sort of like a chameleon so that we could blend in with the citizens so that we don’t stand out. And in an all-black neighborhood, if you wanna pick up an accent it’s kind of like survival. If you sound like you’re not from around here they are like whatch’ you doing over here? And then you get picked on and stuff like that and probably robbed or whatever, just not to fit into stereotypes. So I picked up this accent, being like a black person I was able to I don’t know the word, filterate, is it filterate? I don’t know it’s a word that sounds like that. I’m trying to use big words (laughter). Into the black society around my neighborhood and if we go in groups like for example the Gerinoso which is like a version of Meijer here kind of. If we go to a store or like clothing store nobody would ask us for help. And if they did ask us if we actually needed help it was very cut down like this is what it is and then leave us alone versus if a white person came in they’d be like “oh are you ok are you ok” and everything. And then I had a white friend who thought it was funny to play these jokes where she would walk in and she would get helped and I would walk in and I wouldn’t get helped. And we both applied for ajob and I was more qualified than her and she get it and I didn’t. And she’ll go into these interviews and not even dress up! Like don’t even have a suit on and I would be like suited up and everything! Smelling good and everything! (laughter) Wouldn’t get the job. And she thought it was funny and least to say we are not friends anymore (laughter). But I was, I’ve experienced it, but it was kind of like experiencing what my friends were experiencing but it was like an out of body experience because we somebody was being racist or having racial slurs thrown out, it was like I knew it was bad but it didn’t hurt me because I didn’t grow up here! Versus my black friends would get upset. So, like going to the supermarket and then the owners trail you around trying to make sure you’re not stealing anything. I’ve been through all of that but I didn’t know what the meaning of it was, as far as my friends getting mad and saying oh because I’m its because I’m black. I didn’t grow up feeling like I had to prove myself in a white community. So, I don’t know I don’t think I am the best one to answer that question because when I think about racism I only know racism in learning about it and experiencing it, but not growing up in it. Does that make sense? Page 8 �BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: Yea. I don’t have like family or my grandparents tell me what they went through in the civil rights movement I’m just for it and learning about it. So, sorry (laughter) Sorry I don’t know what else to say. BURKE: (laughter). It’s OK. So, how would you describe your own identity? OMOH: Hmm. As what? As an American as a women? As a Nigerian? BURKE: Anything. How you perceive yourself. OMOH: Hmm. I perceive myself as (sigh) I would like to say strong black women. And when I say black I don’t mean African, Jamaican, or black American, just black because that’s my race. I used to always say that I was, I went from identifring as Nigerian, to African, to Black and vice versa, like it depends on how I feel. I do wear, my personality on me so, I do, you’ll always see me with some African jewelry on or my family we always grow up with bright colors so I’ll always have bright colors on me. Or something with flowers! Something just like that’s how I express myself! But since I’ve been in American, I’ve felt like the more years I spend in America, the less I can identified as being from African descent. I don’t really have a lot of “African” friends, I didn’t; so I feel like I’m losing myself which is why I pressingly cut my hair so that I can get back to my roots, and even that I felt was kind of like was making me a laughing stock because why would I have to cut my hair off to feel Africa-, I should always feel African. So, being born in one country and then growing up in another, messes with your head. And then I have another friend I don’t think she’d prefer, I’m not even gonna’ say her name... BURKE: That’s OK. OMOH: But she was born in Ethiopia but she grew up here. And I’ve had multiple talks with her and I highly respect her and so far she’s the only one that can understand me when I say that I identify as being African feeling kind of loss. Because there is core values that you learn in your ancestry, who you are that, you learn at a certain age. And I moved from Nigeria where I could attain that. So the only thing that I know, the only thing that I can identify as African is my name, how I look cuz’ we do have a look (laughter). It’s stereotypical! Nigerians you can’t really tell if they’re African because we can blend in with the normal American blacks, but some Africans you can just look and they’re African! And I am so jealous about that, because I want to be able to walk down the street and somebody look at me and say look she’s African. I don’t, I look like a black American. So, growing up in another country, I just feel like I’ve lost my roots, So, I don’t know yet how to identify. I identify as an adjective as strong, motivated, and independent. But as far as my cultural definition, that is something I am striving to complete, within myself. So (laughter) You’re laughing at me! BURKE: (polite laughter) I am not laughing. OMOH: So yea I don’t identify with that yet. BURKE: OK. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where you felt you were treated differently because of your identity? Page 9 �OMOH: (long sigh) Yea... I don’t wanna talk about them (laugh) ... BURKE: If you don’t want to that’s OK. OMOH: I mean I could... it’s just... growing up in American has been rough. So rough. It’s like I don’t fit in with anywhere. I feel like I’m just this zombie... and to give you a heads up, it’s like to Americans, Americans see me as black. They don’t say that in Nigeria. Black Americans see me as being African they would never claim me as being a black American. But Nigerian, and most of my African friends don’t see me as African because I’ve been here for thirteen years and I can turn off my accent, turn on and off; but the strong edge of my accent has been lost because it’s been dulled down by the )American accent. So, I am neither American, black American or African, to them. I will always know what I am but speaking in my “accent” to like my Nigerian or African friends, they’ve said that multiple times they don’t even consider me Nigerian or African because once you come to America, apparently you lose that. And speaking in my accent I actually had a friend, a couple of friends tell me they couldn’t take me seriously because they thought that I was faking my accent. I had to prove with birth records, to a couple of other African friends that I was African. So just imagine that it’s like you aren’t American because you aren’t born here, other people see you as black American, the black American’s or African Americans, I don’t know which one to say because sometimes I’ve had friends who prefer to black and prefer to be African American so I say black American, kind of in the middle (laugh). So the black Americans don’t see me as being black and would never claim me as being black, and my African people don’t claim me as being African. So in a situation where you say based on my identity, there’s a lot. But to sum it up it has just been a learning experience and I feel that I would never want my child to go through what I’m going through. I mean I’m very grateful for what the sacrifices my parents made so that I can have a very good education and bright future. But sometimes I don’t know if it’s worth it, identifying as being African. I remember one day, high school they have say culture day and you get to wear your countries clothing or if you’re Irish you wear your Irish clothing or if your Hispanic, I know a lot of my Hispanic friends they always wore their favorite soccer team jersey or Africans or the Asians we always wear our culture guard. And I remember I was just so happy to finally wear that and be in a safe environment. Because when I first came to America, in Nigeria we have what you call English clothes which is what you wear like T-shirt and jeans and then you have your culture clothes wear BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: and I always like wearing my cultural clothes and when you wanna’ impress somebody you put on your culture clothes, what I’m saying. So I wanted to impress my classmates! And I walked in full on we call it Bubira above my head tied and I was like woo I’m about to do it looking good! And the silence that met when I first came to class was like deafening. It was heartbreaking because I was so excited to share my culture and it was like animosity. Somebody told me that I looked like I had stolen a tablecloth and wrapped it around myself. (sigh) it was just rough. And then at such a young age being so proud of who you are and then that kids in high school and elementary school they’re rough they’re mean but that’s all so you think that everybody else is like that at such a young age being met with such a negative response for showing who you are kind of just makes you not want to show the world who you are anymore. So, I don’t know still trying to working on who I am (laughter). But I feel like I’m getting better. I just wish that I didn’t have to go through that. I hope I answered your question (laughter). Page 10 �BURKE: Yeah, yep! Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the discrimination in society? OMOH: Oh yeah! Especially like my teachers, my professors, church members they always encourage me especially when they knew that I wasn’t from America. They always believe that knowledge is power and empowering yourself like even though I didn’t I don’t identify as being black in America I am going to be judged as being black American because of my skin tone. So I need to know quick, very quickly the history of black Americans. I remember I took a gen-ed course here, perspectives on African American gender males, and they were talking about all these famous black people and the struggles of the civil rights movement and I’m just like asking questions. And then they’re like yeah such and such and I’m like. Everybody like and the professors picking on people like yeah what did this person do and I’m like studied the book (laughter). And he got so upset with me! And oh, he made me cry. BURKE: Awh. OMOH: And he was like you should know you’re history, you’re in college and he was like, oh who’s that guy, George Washington or somebody with the black panthers? I don’t know who these people are! This is not my country this is not my history. And he was like you should know your history! Basically saying I was a failure to the black people and I was just like I got so upset. One of my friends in the class she had to stop me because I started crying because I was so upset! I was like this is not my culture! And he was like what do you mean, you are a black American? No! I am Nigerian! I might not look like the stereotypically African. But I took this class so that I could learn more about black Americans. And he was just like, he was stunned. And I was like you have a doctorate degree but you are very ignorant. You just assumed because I was black in this black American class I had to be an African American. So, that’s only one of the few negative responses. But after he knew that he came around and he was very patient with me and it was kind of, kind of embarrassing to only know that there was these people that helped free some slaves. They really don’t tell you a lot in high school about civil rights movements and all that slavery and expeditions and all that . So, he taught me and he was like , I’m sorry, well he never said I’m sorry I take that back. (laughter) Well, I felt like he was sorry for judging that and I think the way he apologized was to be patient with me and challenge me throughout the whole semester about like learning about black history. Knowing about what racism is and that there’s not just white on black there is black on white, there’s black on black there is Hispanic on white, Hispanic on black, racism is racism! You define it to the very minimum; I didn’t know there were so many different definitions for racism. Like racism it’s just not hating another race, it’s that feeling your race is superior to another one. I never knew all that. So I learned about that and I had a lot of church members sit around and say back in my day we couldn’t ride in the front of the bus and now ya’ll just don’t wanna’ sit in front of the bus . Stuff like that so, I had a lot of people influential in my life and know about such things. BURKE: Were there any articles or books films or speeches or anything that influenced your thinking about race or ethnic issues? OMOH: I wouldn’t say films or books would tribute to the way I look at race, more to my upbringing. I didn’t grow up in a house of hate. I know people always say I didn’t grow up in a house of hate, my people my parents are very tolerant. I just didn’t grow up like that, and I don’t even think people realize Page 11 �off the bat what they are saying is racist. But derogatory because their parents are saying it to them and that it’s OK. My parents brought me up to see people as individuals regardless of their skin color. BURKE: Mhrn. OMOH: So, I don’t know. I just feel like everybody is equal and I am going to dislike you if you give me a reason to dislike you. I’m a very fun-loving person; it takes a lot for me not to like you. So I don’t know, a lot of people, especially in America, which I don’t understand because I could understand were in a country everybody looked alike for you to be racist against other people, but in American where nobody looks alike and we have so many middle and in between races, why people hate you on site based on your skin tone. I mean I’ve read a lot of books that , especially working as a resident assistant having those conferences and seminars about equality and diversity and all that stuff, I’m sorry I don’t really. Some people do need diversity training and nobody is above that (sigh) I don’t know I feel like it is a problem where in a country you have to teach people to like each other. Why don’t we just like each other? Are you telling me that if you first saw me and I had the stereotypically blond hair and blue eyes you would like me versus brown hair, brown eyes? I don’t understand. So, I don’t know I don’t like reading about race because you never find anything good about race. Like you always saw oh the culture but if you Google racism or race you always see articles about whathappened in 60s 70s 80s or before that and its really bad and I don’t really read books about racism. I’m sorry, this is very depressing. So the way I feel about my communication with different races with how I grew up and how I was raised I respect every person despite whichever age ethnicity or race they are. BURKE: Has this changed since you moved to western Michigan specifically? OMOH: No. But what has changed is um my tolerance level (laughter) BURKE: OK. OMOH: goodness. I’ve gone up and down in my tolerance level in dealing with people who are not as open-minded. I still don’t understand why people refer to as like oh west Michigan. Apparently west Michigan is like not as open-minded as east Michigan? I don’t know the difference; I grew up in Chicago so I just do the Michigan thing that people usually do. I do know that something simple as even going to Meijer and walking across the street I get looked at! Especially since I cut back up my hair. It’s not just like oh there’s people walking across the street I’m bored so I’ll look. No I get stares of death! Especially, from the older generation. And I still can’t get used to it I’ve had professors, you can always tell how professors are going to react to you based on their age. And the ones that are mostly in their 40s or 50s are like oh yea equal opportunity and like yea all equal opportunity! And once you start getting into the57, 58 and 60s you start seeing, cuz if they’re like 60 or 70 they were probably around during the civil rights movement and all that and those kind of ideals don’t just leave. And I’ve actually had to report one professor! BURKE: Really? OMOH: Yea and he got investigated and found out that it wasn’t just me that he was being racist to. Because I had a lot of professor and teachers in high school that I know didn’t like me and treated me Page 12 �differently because of my race but that’s just character building. And I always felt like if I reported it. nobody would do anything about it. But this one like I just couldn’t let go. Its one thing if you humiliate me in private and down my intelligence but if you do it in front of a class of 70, 80 people, like biology and science classes are huge! And it’s like only three black people in there and you pick on them and make us look like fools and feel insignificant. I knew I had to say something when my friend she was also in that class, she was black and the black people always sat in the front cuz we try and give the professor no reason that we’re not smart by sitting in the back. We’d sit in the front and she came to me almost in tears because she couldn’t look her professor in the eye. It was the same professor that I had. Every time that he would look at her she would turn her face away because he made her that scared. All three of us were scared to say anything to anybody because we didn’t want our grades to suffer. BURKE: Mhm OMOH: So... Gosh I think I might cry... I’m going to relax; it’s okay, sorry. Alright BURKE: I finally worked up the nerve to go and report how we were being treated and nothing came of it. BURKE: Nothing? OMOH: Nothing. He was investigated, they found out and said that he has some social disability because he is always doing research and he hasn’t come in contact with minority students and that so he doesn’t know how to deal with that. So basically what you’re telling me is schools like Grand Valley promote racism as long as you’re over sixty years old. And what really got me so jaded and upset was the fact that the supervisor told me that she cannot guarantee my safety. BURKE: Wow OMOH: I don’t have words, almost she said she couldn’t guarantee if I could be safe if I made it public, cause they were investigating underneath the radar. And if I actually put my name on paper, she couldn’t guarantee my safety, and she couldn’t guarantee that my grades would not suffer. She told me that it would be in my best interest to wait until I graduate, wait until I left the class to make a formal complaint. BURKE: Wow OMOH: This is at Grand Valley in this day in age. So I went home crying and I was just so upset, and finally after the class, I went back and said okay I’m ready, I’d like to make a complaint. Ohhhhhhhhh we can’t make a complaint they gave me some silly run around about how he had some social disability and they investigated and blah blah blah and it was ok. Found out from other sources that because I had said something, other students started to say things, other black students. Still wouldn’t say anything. I had other students in my class that I didn’t know, white students, who would raise their hand and ask a question, and he will answer. And then I would ask a question and he would say, “I’m not answering that right now”. And I had another student, we weren’t really close but she knew me, I asked a question and he said he wouldn’t answer and would have nothing to do with this, and I tell you I’m not lying, said the same exact question flow verbatim and he answered it and she was so upset that he answered, that in Page 13 �front ofthe whole class called him out. And said, “When Esi asked you this question youwouldn’t answer it, why would you answer it for me right now? And what he said? “I don’t want to talk about that right now.” And turned around and went back to theboard. She was so upset; she went and reported to the same person that you report to, the advisor. And it wasn’t until she and some other students from like my lab class, I also had him for lab. BURKE: Mhrn OMOH: Revolted, and were like “we aren’t going to stand for this!” and it kind of warmed my heart because I didn’t know half of these people and made a formal complaint that they finally said they were going to do something about it, this was like a semester later and I was like no, no, I don’t want to do anything about it. This is the reason why, I don’t know if you heard anything about this, but a lot of black people don’t have any faith in the police, they feel like if something goes wrong and they report it, they are either not going to do anything about it or believe them, and nothing is going to come of it. Like if you call the police in a black neighborhood no one is going to come versus, an hour later, versus if they call in a rich neighborhood they will be there in like five minutes. So they just reinforced the whole idea that me and my other friends in the class that were black were like well you should of known better, they wouldn’t have done anything and it took people from another race to say something for you to come back and say okay now we will pursue it, and I was like no, out of your own words you could not guarantee my safety. So, my experiences in America as far as race, coming to west Michigan, have been different. There has always been racism everywhere, , but there’s never, I’ve never dealt with it as much as I came here. Living here. More ignorance than racism though, I’ll say that. But me being an R.A. actually put me in that position where I could serve as a resource to teach people. I know a lot of programs, a lot of students didn’t want to come because they’re like oh its race, all they are going to talk about is white and black racism, but I’m like no, I’m just trying to let how to recognize the signs of racism. Like if you see a peer being picked on by a professor from another race, that doesn’t mean you have to think “Oh racism”, but you have to be aware to see the signs, like if that person is constantly being put down by that professor of another race, you need to be able to see that and a lot of students I find out that they never saw it like that. In Michigan, especially west Michigan people, that live in Holland or Hudsonville, those are the people that I struggle more with because they’re just like I cannot know that, why can’t I just say that the professor doesn’t like the student? BURKE: Mhm OMOH: Just teaching them that and my tolerance is high for ignorance. BURKE: Were there any other times that you confronted any discrimination? OMOH: Yeah.... Ha-ha, yeah .... Ha-ha I’ve confronted a lot. The most stressful ones were when I was an R.A. between residents. The N-word, I’ve never liked it, I’ve never said it, and I don’t know why people say it to each other. But the N-word being tossed around a lot, the derogatory remarks based on race, not just race too, sexual preference and all of that. But the one that happened to me that really hurt the most was my junior year of college and it was back then when Obarna was running for president, and , it was like when the decision finally came out that he was going to win the election, it was a whole bunch Page 14 �of people at Kleiner, like , watching on big screens on the T.V. and you could just see right when they said it, the black people were like EEEEEEEEE and then I’m not going to say all the white people but they were like in race caps, like the blacks were over here and the whites were over there and I’m telling it was no joke, I don’t even know why you had to be black against white but it was like that here at Grand Valley, and you could just see their faces, it was just like “oh wow...” the racial slurs started to be thrown around, I think they closed Kleiner early that night, because people were just crazy and people were sitting there saying that they were going to move to Canada, which I don’t know why they were saying they were going to move to Canada, I don’t understand the significance of that, something about they don’t have a black president, I don’t what they were saying, but I walking and how far Pickard is from Kleiner, and I’m walking back and three girls from Kistler opened up their window and just started throwing racial slurs at me, as I was walking, and it was kind of dark, and how those lamps illuminate you. So they were like “her you black girl blah blah blah, n-word, f-you, blah blah blah, Obama should’ve never won, I’m gonna come get you, blah blah blah”. I was like, I was so upset because for like 5 seconds I forget I was an R.A. and my instinct was to go up to that room and beat the mess out of every last one of those females. But the voice of reason came in and I went to my other co-worker and this was before your time, she was a multicultural assistant to my resident assistant, she was like the race issue person, and talked to her about it. And then they called Dewyon, and he was upset and was like “I’m really sorry that you had to go through all that.” He knew that as an R.A. I couldn’t respond the way I should’ve responded so they had this big investigation and they tried to find the people, and they never could. how those windows are, and you could never place a room to a window, and it was dark, oh am I going too much? BURKE: Nope OMOH: Okay, so they never placed a room so they could never find the people but I just felt targeted and singled out, and just because Obama was president. I never have voted in my life, and one of the reasons that I have never voted is because, well there are two reasons. One is because I don’t really feel like I’m an American, I don’t feel like I should have a say in what goes on even though I am a citizen and applied for that citizenship, I wasn’t born here and I don’t feel like I’m invested here. I feel that I am invested in my community but I don’t feel like I should have a say in the American Government. And secondly, I don’t vote for people that I don’t know anything about. I feel like I should be able to do research, and if I like your views then I will vote. But I’m not just going to vote because you’re a democrat or you’re a republican, or you like schools or you want to give woman health care, I want to be able to do research and I don’t know how to do research and either way I’m always like I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, but I can’t just pick. I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, or I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, it just never makes a difference so I don’t vote. And me being targeted, I didn’t even vote for the man! I felt like I was targeted because apparently every black person voted for Obama, so the people were against Obama, or targeting, the whole week there were targets on peoples white boards, people getting into fights, I think there was like a gun incident too. BURKE: Wow Page 15 �OMOH: A lot of stuff happens at Grand Valley but they are very hush-hush. I think they surrounded a black guy and it was like three white people confronted the black guy and told him, something that had to do with the election and were calling him the n-word, and said they were going to letch him. BURKE: This was at Grand Valley? OMOH: Grand Valley girl. BURKE: Wow OMOH: So, haha I try to put it in the back of my mind so I don’t think about it but you’re questions are very deep haha. BURKE: haha I’m sorry! OMOH: It’s okay, it’s okay! I think we should go to the next question! BURKE: Will you describe any personal hero’s that have had an influence on your life? OMOH: Heros 9 hhh... I don’t think I have any hero’s. I think I have people that I greatly admire. BURKE: Okay OMOH: And um, I admire, can I say names? BURKE: Yeah! OMOH: Okay, Dewyon White? The purposes living center director of Grand Valley housing, I admire him a lot because I was I became an RA my junior year, my freshman and sophomore year I was very angry, not as angry as I was in high school, but I was a very angry woman about all the same things, especially about racial stuff happening, I was very angry about how things were turning out to be in this world, and he took me and groomed me basically he was one of the people that, also Tacara Lyn, she was his supervisor, they basically groomed me to the woman that I am today and being more tolerant and understanding of people. Yeah, pastor, couple of co-workers, family, they’ve all played an instrumental role but my hero, I don’t like that term just for the fact that hero can be sin ominous worship sometimes, I don’t really have a hero, because it’s like put this person on a pedestal and I don’t think it’s fair to put anyone on a pedestal because then when they can’t meet those standards their world comes crashing down and I always hear people who have hero’s and for example they say this man who has a wife, but then he cheats on her, now that affects you because you felt this man was on this pedestal and that backlashes and that’s just a way I protect myself. I have a lot of people I admire who play an instrumental role in my life but I don’t have any hero’s. Sorry! BURKE: No that’s fine! Were you involved in any civil rights organizations or anything like that while at Grand Valley? OMOH: No, the most ethnic thing I ever did was got involved in the ethnic council, quite honestly the last thing you could say but I really don’t like black history month for the simple fact that, well I wouldn’t Page 16 �mind celebrating black history every month it’s just to have that one month, February, like I told you I don’t really like learning about what the slaves went through, I’m just a very emotional person and when I hear about all of that, it’s just like wow! In this country, are you serious? And then the same thing is happening in my country and it’s not more of a slavery thing but it’s more of genocide, up north in Nigeria the Muslims are killing Christians because they see Christians as not worthy. I’m not saying all Muslims but the terrorist groups, they always say Muslims but terrorist are only like 1%, and you never hear about the God loving Muslims, you only hear about the terrorist. Actually, in one of the villages that my mom grew up in, they actually went there and killed everyone in the village, it wasn’t just shootings, they took a machete and chopped people up. Babies, headless babies. So I don’t like black history month because when it’s on TV. They always want to show something about hangings and I understand that you need to recognize that but I try to stay away from civil rights because that whole inequality stuff is too emotional for me to deal with. I support it from the outskirts like the civil rights walk but as far as actively involved I stay away from it. BURKE: Okay, can you describe the involvement in your church and how that has had an influence on your life? OMOH: I grew up Roman Catholic but a couple of years ago I started going to this church named Grace of the Nation’s Church and it’s a Cogic church which means “Church of God in Christ,” I’ve worked there in an organization where they help international students and international members, because it’s an international church. We have people from Jamaica, people from Nigeria, , people from South America, Mexico and even Korea. So we have a ministry that deals with international people and also we have different ministries where we raise money and donations for a little ministry that we have in Benisala, in Haiti, and in Iraq and in South Africa. We actually have one of our South African pastors that we support coming up to grace, so me being directly involved in that kind of keeps me grounded in trying to get back into my roots of helping international students and everything, and I also do hospitality which I really like because I am in front of the house greater so I’m the first person they see before they enter to the church, which is kind of cool because you can always the newcomers they are kind of nervous and I’m like “Hi welcome to Grace!” and then they totally get into the grooves of things and get welcomed. So me having involvement in my church gives me another avenue to get involved within my community and also it will keep me grounded with people who are international and who might have went through the same things I did and try to let them know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and that not all Americans have you haha. And I’m like , don’t listen to everybody. When I first came here I had a lot of black people say, “don’t trust white people!” “They’ve got it in for you” “They are all racist!” so I’m letting them know to make their own decisions about people. BURKE: Have you ever experienced any discrimination towards your religion? OMOH: Yeah, it’s kind of sad though because I understand why, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things and the one that I clash the most with is my gay or lesbian friends nine times out often I’d say all of them totally dislike Christians, most of them have had really bad experiences with Christians and I feel like because of that there is going to be a part of intimacy within my friends that I can never reach because they have this preconceived notions about Christianity. And I don’t blame them, not at all because I’ve also had Christian friends who are very unchristian who don’t accept people for who they Page 17 �are, so I’ve had a lot of friends, for example, like I said I am very active in my church and I like to invite people to come to my church, and when your friends are not church goers, they don’t really want to go and always say some kind of religious slurs, like “that’s too Christianity for me”, and it hurts. They might feel that they have problems in their gay or lesbian relationship and feel like they can’t talk to me about it because of my Christianity. But as far as people who hate me because I’m a Christian, no I haven’t had that happen. But once they find out they are bias towards me. Yeah, I have a lot of Muslim friends too, my closest friend, she is Saudi Arabian; I have a lot of friends that are different. Some of them might think that their religion is superior to mine. I just let them keep thinking that, whatever floats your boat because I’m secure in my religion. But as far as discrimination as in I don’t want to talk to you or be around you because you’re a Christian, no I haven’t had to deal with that. BURKE: How was it different going to high school in Chicago versus your school in Nigeria? OMOH: First of all, a lot more of racial diversity in America than in Nigeria. School here is a lot easier, which is good for me. We start school at a very early age and its education, education, education, I don’t ever remember relaxing. But it wasn’t bad and I didn’t complain because it was what everyone did, they went to school at 7:30am and it was over at 4:30pm and had tutoring, which was basically another school from 5:00pm to 8:30pm and then do homework and chores and start it all over again. I don’t think I ever relaxed and I didn’t have weekends, it’s been a long time, but I didn’t have to go to school on Saturdays but I had home school on that day, and Sundays I went to church, eat and then study because I had homework from regular day school and from tutoring also. But everyone else did it, so it wasn’t like I was the only one so I never complained. It was a social norm. The difference here is that I learn about different cultures such as European history, American history, but in Nigeria our history was focused on Britain, because we were colonized by the British, so we learn more about that. Difference that I don’t like here that I liked there is the option of learning of learning my own language, I feel that I would be a lot more fluent in it, so that’s another thing that I need to work on. Not being able to practice your language doesn’t necessary mean you’re going to lose it but you start thinking in a language, such as English. For example my parents used to ask me questions in my own language, but I would respond in English. I was never really 100% fluent, but I was speaking the equivalent of Spanglish, half Spanish half English, but now I can’t even do that! I just respond back in English. I wish they had more variety, instead of options for European but African. I’m happy they have Japanese, which isn’t very common, Chinese is more common than Japanese, but just a variety of languages is something that I miss. BURKE: Based on the different schooling systems that you have been a part of, can you describe any differences in the structure of learning? Such as critical thinking skills? OMOH: In Nigeria we push math and science. BURKE: Why is that? OMOH: Both of my parents were educators, and their theory on this, which I believe, is that they pushed math and science because we are a developing country. So we push and start school early, you graduate high school when you are 16, and you go on to college where you learn math and science, stereotypical Page 18 �but most Africans are either doctors or engineers, something math or science related. You go and get these good degrees and then give back to the community. So the high school college generation is the future of the country, what they specialize in will be what our country will develop in. The reason why the United States developed is because they have all this technology and resources, well it took someone to go into a higher level in college for them to invent all of these things. So we hope that one day, when we give back to our community that most of these people who went to other countries to get their degree in other things will one day rule our country, but they never end up coming back. If they came back with all of their education, and with enough people doing that, we would eventually rise as a nation. But people never do, so the solution is to focus more on math and science so one day we will do something very successful. BURKE: So how is that compared to finishing school here? OMOH: here is total opposite. In American they focus more on English literature, how you speak, more of life skills then technical skills. You always know your hard math and science, but they always stress and say oh if this math and science is not for you, then that’s okay! You can be a professor in psychology or English or something like that. In Nigeria you don’t have an option. Especially from your parents, you have to do well and success is only measured on whether or not you do something in the math or science field. I’m sure there are very success English professors, but for Nigeria success is only if you become a doctor or engineer or business. You don’t really hear people who are happy that have other careers, even if they are giving back to the community, they only want people who are successful. So there’s a lot more stress on you getting good grades in Nigeria than there is here. If you’re not getting good grades, than you’re not making the best of what you’re given. If you are a C average student, you better be the best C average student that you are. In Nigeria, if you get a B or B+, that’s just as bad as an F. I’m so serious. I went to sleep so many times crying, I remember I had my first B that I got in college, cried for days. My mom and dad yelled at me, you could have sworn that I got an F on my report card or something. They said “are those other people better than you? Why can’t you get an A?” I was crying because it’s not bad getting a B on your transcript, but when your parents see that B, they are going to be very upset with you. So I like America better, it’s a lot more stress free. BURKE: So we know that you went to Grand Valley for school, but is there anything else you would like to talk about within your experience? Such as the environment, we talked about student organizations already, but are there any other networks that you did? OMOH: Give me an example BURKE: Was the student body interested in civil rights, or did you ever network or attend meetings with students who share your identity from other colleges? OMOH: From other colleges no I’ve never really met with other Universities, but the African student council; we do a lot of events and people from Michigan State University or Western University, people from other major universities. But as far as building relationships with people that identif with the way that I do from other universities, not so much. I could barely even do that here! Like I told you, African student council. It is a very good part of my life here at Grand Valley but I also felt that I was very limited Page 19 �there. It was nice to have a group of people; we had whites, Africans, Hispanics and even Korean! But identity is such a fragile thing and I thought I finally got over it, airight I’m me, I’m part of the African student council so that’s like got to be African, and then having to work through stereotypes within your own people is so rough. So I think that inhibited me from seeking deeper relationships. And then, I was really upset because I was going to get more familiar with the African refugee center, this year since I no longer have school and I could really dedicate working with individuals who first come under a refugee status and I found out a couple weeks ago that they had to close down because there wasn’t enough interest. As far as I know that was the only one in West Michigan. Hopefully one of these days I will have enough guts to start one in Grand Rapids, but I don’t plan on staying in Grand Rapids, I don’t know. BURKE: Where do you plan on going? OMOH: Somewhere down south, I like to travel. Obviously I came to America, and then I came to Michigan by myself, I want to go down south, I’ve never really experienced anywhere in down south before. I’ve been to the east coast; I haven’t been to the west coast. I think I’m more southern than I am western. I don’t think I have the personality to move to California, I want to find a nice little town down south with just the right amount of people. Not too big, not too small. Happy people. I heard there are a lot of happy people down south and I’m very big on hospitality. I know it’s kind of a silly reason to move but I like people that smile, ? I’m the kind of person that gets my energy from happy people, if you’re sad I’m sad and if you’re angry, I’m angry. I don’t become physically angry but I become tense. And I’m young and I want to work with refugees. I’m also going into the peace core. I was supposed to be going to Kenya for 27 months for the peace core in October, but they did the budget cuts and postponed it until March. And then I found out that they picked 7 people out of thousands and I was one of the people that they picked, but now they don’t have money for 7 people, only 3 or 4. So now I’m back to square one, trying to re-interview since I made the cut the first time. But I might not be doing it anymore because it takes a lot of emotional investment and they already took it away from me once, I was really depressed and don’t want to go through that again. My dream is to go back and open up a dentist for single mothers, less fortunate people that cannot afford health care. So within the peace core I was going to teach math and science in Kenya, and having that under my belt would give me essential life building skills to move on. But the government is jerking my chain so I think I will just go work in a refugee center, it’s the next best thing. BURKE: What made you decide to come to Michigan by yourself? OMOH: I think I’ve also told you this before, but it was the grass! BURKE: The grass? OMOH: ha-ha yes the grass! I played soccer in high school, and I mean I was good but I wasn’t that good so I was surprised when I got full scholarships to schools. I had a full ride soccer scholarship, and then two academic based scholarships. So I went to the schools and said okay I don’t have to pay for anything, but on the other hand I didn’t want to be stuck playing soccer for my whole college experience, and I was going into sciences and it would have been really hard to juggle all of them, and it was a private school. So then it was Grand Valley State University, University of Toledo, University of Page 20 �Illinois, I went to Champaign and it was too big for me, and Toledo was in the hood, it was good but it was surrounded by hood areas. And I grew up in the hood in Chicago and I’m trying to leave all of that. I want to go to an academic community! I had a vision and I came in the summertime, where it was so pretty with the grass. I guess the grass in Michigan is different from the grass in Illinois. Our grass doesn’t green like this, this is like good earth. My parents were just blown away by the grass, the trees and the flowers. I would rather come here with a class of only 30 people and I need to be able to have a teacher that knows my name, that when I go to their office hours, you recognize me and I’m not just another face. That was one of the reasons; the biggest one is still the grass though. BURKE: So what were your expectations for your education, did your parents have an influence? OMOH: My parents influenced me a lot on my decision, I always knew I wanted to do something in science, but my father wanted me to be a lawyer and my mother wanted me to be a medical doctor. It wasn’t until my sophomore year when I said I’m not being a doctor or a lawyer! I am going to be a dentist! That’s when I was getting my braces off and said I want to do something with the dentist now. Still to this day organic chemistry is my favorite chemistry in the whole wide world, you’re going to love it. I’ve always been interested in organic structures, but my senior year I realized that I get my energy from human interaction and even though I would be interacting with my patients, I want to be interacting with them on a personal level. So I still want to do something with my degree but I realized that dentist school isn’t for me. It’s not enough to just make people smile and happy, I’m not going to get enough interaction. iVy parents were very disappointed, my mom threatened to disown me. She is still upset with me for not going straight to dentist school; it was a big family argument. I’m not sure if it is like that in other African societies but I know that in Nigeria, from my experience, your parents set your role. They push you towards the math and sciences. I also lucked out that I liked it; if I didn’t like it then it would be a problem. BURKE: How did that vary within your siblings? Like with their college degrees? OMOH: No variation, but I will be the only science. My older sister has her masters in finance, my older brother is a computer engineer and my other sister is an industrial engineer and it’s me and my little brother who are going into business. I would be the variation within the social service job because obviously there’s no money in that, and if there’s no money than there’s no success. But I don’t see it like that. BURKE: Can you describe any historic events either in western Michigan or Nigeria that had an impact on you or your family, which you remember? OMOH: 9/11, I was in the 8 grade when it happened. It didn’t really impact me because I didn’t have any family there but it impacted me by the way the country as grieving, andhow to this day when 9/Il passes here and people are still recovering and crying. Like Isaid I don’t like stuff like that because I’m very motivated by my emotions, so seeing how the country all came together to get through that was very inspirational for me. Everyone was grieving, it didn’t matter what race, color or disability, everyone was grieving and it showed that even though we’re all different in some ways, it showed that as humans we Page 21 �support each other. I thought that was pretty cool. Actually one of my friends decided to be a firefighter because of that. BURKE: How has your perception of your identity changed as you grew older? OMOH: Like I said it’s changed, every couple of years I change how I identify myself. When I think of identity I think of race, I never think gender or sex, I always think race because that is such a big thing for me. My identity is always going to be from high school student, college student, grown adult, middle class to hopefully comfortable class. As far as status, single American. I never think that, I always think race. Right now I just consider myself black. If people ask me to tell them a little bit more, I say I actually have roots in Nigeria. But for now Ijust consider myself black. That might eventually change because I go through stages where I am like full on African! I wear all my African gear and tell the world. But right now I am just black. BURKE: So you think it will change? OMOH: Oh yeah most definitely. My identity changes with my maturity. When I first came to America I was like “I’m African, I need to separate and be an individual!” so I wore my Africanism quote on quote as a cloak for security to separate myself from people so I could be an individual. in high school, you don’t want to be the individual; you want to be the one with the coolest hair and a certain kind of style. So that was my token of individuality. In college I was Nigerian, not just African. Nigerian-American, I set myself as somebody who could be between African and African American. Now I just consider myself someone from an African descent, which is black. I can talk to Africans comfortably, I can talk to blackAmericans comfortably, I can talk to whites, and I can talk to anyone. I am just a woman from African descent. BURKE: Do you feel that members of your community have struggled from any civil rights in western Michigan? OMOH: Seeing as how I just moved to Grand Rapids, I don’t really know too many people in my community. Most of friends didn’t grow up in west Michigan; most of them grew up in Detroit or flint. So I don’t know, I can’t answer that question. BURKE: What issues do you feel still need civil rights advocacy? OMOH: Civil rights in reference to what? BURKE: Anything. OMOH: Gender discrimination, I am a little controversial in my definition of civil rights but I think everyone should be equal. Within race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference. I think that at the very basis of it that we are humans and the bible teaches us to love thy neighbor as thyself, so I feel that we need more work. I think there’s been a lot of work gone towards racial civil rights, and I know a lot of my friends think that it needs more work and I agree. But I think that sometimes civil rights only eclipses racial issues instead of conflicts with gender, sex, and sexual preference, to things like woman in Page 22 �different work fields. I’m always about equal opportunity. When I hear civil rights I think about race, I think that when people think of civil rights they shouldn’t only think of things that are racial related. BURKE: Is there anything else that you would like to add or comment on? OMOH: No not really, I think we summed it all up. I appreciate you interviewing me; it makes me feel that you value my opinion. BURKE: We do! Thank you very much. This concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca85e264db454a02aaa0faeb3a3be379.mp3 d4def79b0b0387a626b47f90ac928f50 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Omoh_Esiloza Title A name given to the resource Esiloza Omoh audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Omoh, Esiloza Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burke, Briana Description An account of the resource Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-09-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3eaf0640ecb8ead6feb062ed162cfb6.jpg 70b3abb89229287916b29f745deddabb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EskedalGlen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Eskedal, Glen Description An account of the resource Glen Eskedal, Housing Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College administrators Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c33564ab68257b4e58b37a0ddc7c5db1.pdf 8d7d809b0e8fbbaf62da936433a32801 PDF Text Text Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Johnson Center for Philanthropy Grand Valley State University Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 The Council of Michigan Foundations, Johnson Center for Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University (GVSU), and GVSU Libraries’ Special Collections & University Archives present: An oral history interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010. Conducted by Dr. James Smither of the History Department at GVSU. Recorded at WGVU in Grand Rapids, Michigan. This interview is part of a series in the Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project documenting the history of philanthropy in Michigan. Preferred citation: Researchers wishing to cite this collection should use the following credit line: Oral history interview with Virgina Esposito, February 18, 2010. "Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project", Johnson Center Philanthropy Archives of the Special Collection & University Archives, Grand Valley State University Libraries. Note: Corrections and additional information added by the interviewee are indicated in brackets. James Smither (JS): We are conducting an interview today for the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University. We are beginning an oral history series conducted with both area philanthropists and people who are, sort of, in the business or profession of philanthropy in one form or another. Today we are talking to Virginia Esposito who is an expert in the study of family philanthropy and foundations. She is currently a visiting fellow [scholar] here at the Johnson Center at Grand Valley State University and she also runs her own organization which studies family philanthropy. And what we’re going to do is sort of turn things around a little bit, because she will work with people and ask them to talk about why they do what they do and how they understand it, and now we’re going to ask some of those questions of her. The interviewer, by the way, is James Smither of the History Department of Grand Valley State University. Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 1 �Now, Ginny can you start by telling us a little bit about your own background? Just to begin with where and when were you born? 00:01:00 Virginia (Ginny) Esposito (GE): Oh my goodness, I was born in Philadelphia, and I was born in 1952. And my parents had only been married a few months when my father was sent to Korea. So I’ve never lived in Philadelphia, but my mother went home to be with her family so there’d be somebody around, and that’s how I came to be born there. JS: So where did you grow up then? GE: I grew up in the Marine Corps. I grew up in all of the places that they sent my dad except those that we could not go to. I didn’t go to Viet Nam, didn’t go to Korea, didn’t go to Lebanon. But we went to mostly up and down the Atlantic and into the Caribbean, and so I grew up there. And I was lucky enough that when I got to high school, which is the place where you’d like to go [be a bit more settled], my father was young enough that he thought he could retire - having been in the service since the World War II. He decided he could retire and start a new career at a young age, and I could go to high school in one place. So I will say that I have spent most of my life in and around Virginia, southern Virginia, went to school in central Virginia, and I now live in northern Virginia. JS: So where were you living when you were in high school? GE: In southern Virginia. I was living in Norfolk, Virginia. It was really important to my father that we all go to Catholic school. And he found there was a Catholic school in Norfolk, good college prep education, and every single one of us was going to go through that school. I was up at the top of the group, so that’s how all [of us], all the ones underneath me, could go [to the same high school]. Yes, he felt that when the last of us graduated they should dedicate the doors or something to him for the tuition. JS: Did you go on to college from there? 00:02:40 GE: You know I did, and it was, it was really a sort of process of being a little ignorant and very inexperienced. I’m the first person on either side of my family to have gone to college. It was a huge, big deal but there wasn’t a lot of prep, you know, for what that would mean. And I looked around and there were really terrific colleges in Virginia, where I wanted to go to. And at the time the University of Virginia had a women’s college. It was actually Mary Washington College of the University of Virginia. It’s since been separated. It’s since gone co-ed. There are men on that campus now. But for me, I loved the notion that it was a liberal arts school, I could study in every single department in the college, which is something I really did want. It was small, so someone who was a little more, well, not really willing to put herself out, you know, could find a niche somewhere. It offered great work study, and I was very excited about that, and it actually was the right choice for me. I actually planned to leave and go on to the University of Virginia my junior year and ended up changing my mind. Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 2 �JS: Did you get a degree in anything in particular? 00:04:00 GE: Yes, actually I studied languages, got a degree in Spanish. I studied, I actually took advantage of the fact that back then you paid one price; you could take as many classes as you want. So English became very important. Education, studied a lot of education and history. So there were a fair number of majors and related fields. I really did take the liberal arts part seriously. JS: As you were doing this, did you have any idea where you wanted to go or what you wanted to do when you got out? GE: Not a clue. I studied the languages first and foremost because I’ve lived in a country that had [where] English was not the first language, and as a kid it had been easy to pick it up, and so I was intrigued at that. And I actually found there was a lot of advantage to being able to speak different languages, and at one point in my college career I was actually taking five. And I thought this is just fabulous, communication, this is just so wonderful, you know. And I sort of vaguely thought maybe diplomacy, maybe something foreign service, something along those lines. But the other thing that work study did was, candidly, created a debt to the state of Virginia, so I knew that the first thing I was going to be doing was, unless I was willing to pay it back, was to go and teach in the state of Virginia. By the time I took a few education courses and I actually did student teaching and things like that, [I] thought I like this, I think I can teach and I did. I did that for six years. I left college and went into teaching Introduction to Communications and foreign language and three levels of Spanish actually. JS: And where were you doing that? 00:05:40 GE: I was doing that also in southern Virginia in Hampton which is [in] the Hampton roads area. And after a couple of years moved back over the river to Norfolk and did the little commute. This was before it was so crowded that you couldn’t possibly think about crossing that river every day and I did it. And I did that, as I say for six years, and by about the end of the fifth year I recognized that I loved the classroom, but this wasn’t what I wanted to do longer term. JS: That’s actually a fairly common experience with teachers in a lot of different ways. What sort of was it that didn’t seem to fit or what were you looking for that you weren’t getting? 00:06:24 GE: That’s a great question because there was a part of it that was a little bit depressing because I genuinely loved the classroom experience. I came into the system that year with about seventyfive rookie teachers, the year that I started. I think I was the last one to be there that stayed. It was really all of the other stuff besides teaching, the fact that languages, communications, these kinds of things were always on the chopping block. I think of the six years, I can say this for certainty, every single year, I was told that they weren’t sure if they could continue to fund languages, so [I] didn’t know if I would have a job. There was a lot of school board stuff, and city council stuff, and it wasn’t a great time economically, so there was a lot of, lot of tension. Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 3 �And it just felt like, you know, there’s something about the kids I’m relating to but I missed the other thing that I studied quite a bit in college. In fact I had done several art history tours of Europe, I’d been studying northern European and Renaissance art. I really loved my art history and I thought, you know, maybe arts administration. I still was attracted to this notion that it wasn’t [going to be] government now and it wasn’t going to be business. It was youth and this nonprofit sector, but I thought it was going to be arts administration. And I knew Washington, D.C. had some great programs in arts administration. And so I left my contract and moved to Washington with no job but, I was going to look for one. JS: All right so you were just going to go try to take a job rather than do a graduate program— GE: I was going to do a graduate program but I was going to have to do a graduate program while I worked. I did not have the resources and didn’t want to acquire the debt that would have said, I was going to get to do it full time. In retrospect, probably should have bitten the bullet and just done it, but since it probably would have been a mistake in terms of what I wanted to study longer term, you know, maybe it wasn’t. I have little patience with regrets but I wanted to be going to school but to be also working. JS: How long did it take you to find a job? 00:08:50 GE: Well, I was told that this was a terrible, terrible environment to be looking for work. And I hit the pavement in what was at that point, I think, the hottest summer on record in Washington, D.C., so I never showed up for an interview that I wasn’t soaking wet. But I gave, gosh youth, I gave myself like I was going to find a job in two weeks, you know, and mostly through blind ads and a couple of, you know, agencies and things like that, and I actually found three but picked the one that I liked the most. JS: And what was that? 00:09:35 GE: Well I had answered a blind ad for a Phil Org. That’s all it said in the ad: P-h-i-l O-r-g. And my father, you should know, and my grandfather had both been interested in stamps, so I said to myself, well I’m either going to be in stamp collecting or charity. You know it’s philately, it’s philanthropy, I don’t know which, but I’ll show up. And it was very, very interesting because the same day I interviewed for what you would have thought was my dream job, I did an interview at Youth for Understanding on student exchange and it had everything that I’d been very interested in. My last year of teaching, I took eighteen junior high school students through Europe. Now one could have thought that would have ended my high school, I mean teaching, career and it sort of did, but it was a celebration rather than a last straw. And so here was Youth for Understanding and I was going to get to work with student exchange. I was going to get to help people appreciate other cultures. It was a much more senior position and it was a much better paying position. And the Phil Org that I did the blind ad for turned out to be the Council on Foundations, which had recently moved from New York to Washington, to take advantage of the, sort of, need for Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 4 �foundations realizing they needed a better representation on the Hill. They were still reeling from the 1969 tax act, and so they were regrouping in Washington. The position that I had was, sort of, very bottom rung, as I said did not pay quite as well as the other position. But there was something about it. There was something about the work they were doing. There was something about the sort of scrappy nature of an organization regrouping in a new city. There was something about the fact that it was very clear that, in addition to what I needed to do, I was going to get to pay attention to a lot of other things in philanthropy and in the organization. And I was offered the two jobs within ten minutes of each other. In fact, it was my Friday afternoon. It was me convinced that I was not going to get a job offer. My friends were about to take me off to the beach for the weekend to console me and at quarter to five one call came and at five to five another one came. And everyone was sure it was going to be the Youth for Understanding job because it made such a fit with what I’d been doing, and it absolutely wasn’t. It was total gut. This is what you want to do. JS: So you take your Phil Org job— GE: Yup, I take my Phil Org, no stamps. JS: What was that like then? You go into work for the first time. What do you wind up doing right away? 00:12:30 GE: Well, the first thing that I was supposed to be doing was I was supposed to be helping the number two person in the organization. Well actually I guess he might have been number three, he was the executive vice president, but back at that time they had two senior people. And I was supposed to be his assistant. And he had a whole lot of areas he was responsible for and there were only two or three of us that worked for him. So it was even the second day that I discovered a whole area of work. And it was these, we were the national association of grantmaking foundations and corporations, but there were all these regional ones all over the country. And there was this, right behind where I was sitting, was this gigantic filing cabinet of stuff but nobody was paying attention to it, so I finally was like, well, Can I figure this out? And I went in there and I found that somebody had starting to do a survey, and someone was looking to, at the time the relationships between national and regional weren’t great, so is there something that I can do here? And it’s very interesting when you think about where I’m sitting today because I got very interested in the work of those regional groups, and one of my very first contacts in the field of philanthropy, one of my very first committee members and first teachers was Dorothy Johnson, for whom the Johnson Center at Grand Valley is named. And so it was a lovely sort of coming around to come back to her. From there I quickly got into the education function and that was what made sense. There were not a lot of people there who had experience in putting together curricula. There weren’t there people who understood different formats for education, weren’t used to the facilitation of groups, and that was just a natural place for me to go. So within about two years; I had a major position in grantmaker education. And I was able to really get into everything from their annual Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 5 �conference that brought people from all over the world to smaller conferences that focused on individual kinds of activities. And I really credit the people who came into the organization for making it such a terrific place for me to be because after about a year or two of doing one thing I would sort of feel like [it was getting repetitive]…okay, and they’d come to my door and say, Well, how about [taking] this [on]? And so I went there for two years; I stayed for seventeen. But I did nine different jobs [and] every time, it just seemed it was a natural other thing I could give to the organization. And they were really flexible about that, so within education if I was interested in doing, what about programming for new people? Okay. What about veterans? What about trustees? It’s actually how I ultimately would get into family. But I also credit it with really, really building the sort of liberal arts aspect to my education, because in bringing people in to speak to grantmakers, I got to meet some of the most wonderful, inspiring leaders around the world, because I was their point person. I prepped them to understand philanthropy and to bring them in. And that was incredibly great work. I would go out and read the books they’d written. I’d learn everything about them. I’d, you know, get to know them well. It was such a great job. It was so great. JS: What sorts of people are these that you would bring in? 00:16:08 GE: Oh, my goodness. Everybody from, there were so many, Jonas Salk and Leon Sullivan and Bishop Tutu and Jimmy Carter and Gloria Steinem, and, you know, all of these people that philanthropy would want to hear from, leaders, you know, who had been just amazing leaders. And I’m sitting there, the point person for what they do, and going [to] wherever they lived and talking to them about the audience, and making sure that they were well prepared to do a good job. And in some cases we did things where, okay, I’m going to prep you or okay, we’re going to work with Bill Moyers on a series that he’s going to do on philanthropy. It was just a constant education, especially if you liked that part of it, if you loved that, which I absolutely did. So while the details of putting on programs could somehow drive you nuts, I’d also be sitting in an audience going, this is the most terrific opportunity for somebody, you know, to get to do this and to do this at this personal level, not just to hear them, but to work with them in getting this done. There was a conference where there was some serious, serious tension between different communities of color in that city. And the committees and the organization decided that Maya Angelou, for example, would be a perfect person to come in and do a major session to, sort of, talk to everyone about the need for all of us to find a way to do this work together. And it was very sensitive, I mean, there were people that didn’t think she should come. There were people who thought that maybe the whole thing should be boycotted or called off. And I remember her grilling me about why she should do this, what role could she play. And I answered every question she had, and at the end of it she was like, “Honey, if ever I were needed, this is it.” And so that’s just one little, out of dozens of them. So here I was getting to know philanthropy at the most intimate level, but also at the most expansive level, and also getting these inspiring leaders, and who were coming, you know, to me as the chief cook and bottle washer, but still it was there. Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 6 �JS: Aside from Maya Angelou, are there particular people out of this assortment that maybe particularly surprised you or impressed you beyond maybe what their record or credentials would have indicated? 00:18.46 GE: Yes, I think when you grow up and you take your basic science, you know, you think, okay, you know, Jonas Salk and Salk vaccine and this kind of thing. What I remember about Jonas Salk was that his mind was so much more expansive than science. He saw connections and applications in everything. He was a person [whose] deep values guided what he did. He didn’t necessarily want to talk just about science or his own accomplishments. He wanted to talk about what we were all doing to, you know, make the world a better place, a more global community. He was so not what I expected; he was so not what I expected. And then there were other people who were more personally, just they were very inspiring, they were very moving. I remember right after he won the Nobel Peace Prize, the president, then President of Costa Rica, Oscar Arias came, was doing our conference. And right before he arrived, his most important mentor in the field passed away. And so the man who arrived in Toronto for our conference was really grieving. And, I knew he had to rise to the occasion, but I also somehow figured out I needed to respect a little bit of the space. So there had been a sort of day of activities that people had planned for mostly press and things like that, and somehow we all knew he just needed a day going off by himself, you know, just dealing with all of this, and then when he came back of course did this absolutely fabulous, amazing job. You know, some people you expect to be very sort of lofty, maybe above it all, and they were incredibly down to earth, and there were a few we expected them to be down to earth and they weren’t so much. But I still remember those that there were surprises, it was that whole notion of surprise. One my very, very favorites was Leon Sullivan, the reverend in Philadelphia who had founded the whole notion of opportunities, you know, industrial group that in inner cities provide job training and good educational efforts, and this was just a model around the country. A minister who had seen his ministry, not just [as] his congregation, but all of the community and what can we do [to] raise up communities through job training, and one of the greatest African American leaders this country has ever had. And I mention African American because at the time both my CEO and Chair of my committee were distinguished African American leaders, but they were, you know, clearly [a] generation down from Reverend Sullivan. So when the three of us went up to visit Reverend Sullivan in his little tiny cramped office, the two of them, these amazingly accomplished men that I just had such respect for, turned into like little students at the feet of this man, and I was just shocked that here were these two people who obviously really valued his good opinion, and were just so eager to please him. And I have to tell you he had demands and expectations of each of them, but he clearly knew each one of them, knew what they had accomplished. And at the end of it as we’re sort of all filing out of this little office, he gets to the first one and he says, "Okay. I know what you’ve been doing in Cleveland. You’ve been doing really great work." And he goes, "I’m really proud of you. I am so proud of you." And, you know, there’s this man, he’s beaming. "I’m so proud of you." And this big bear hug. And then comes my boss and he goes, "I know what you’re doing for philanthropy. I know what you’re Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 7 �doing down there in Washington. I am so proud of you. I’m so proud of you." And then I’m the next one through and I look up at him, and he was really, really tall, and I said, "It’s okay, Dr. Sullivan, my mother’s proud of me." And he points to the table where all the literature from the conference was and he goes, "Honey, if you think I think those two did all that work, (laughter) you’re crazy." He goes, "And I’m proud of you," and there was this big bear hug. So sometimes it was just those moments where life isn’t the way you predicted it, but it teaches you an openness, you know, that I now still value to this day. JS: I would think that on some level people who choose to be involved in philanthropy, and they commit themselves to it by and large, are going to be a fairly good-hearted bunch and wish well of people most of the time, and so a certain amount of that will happen. It probably isn’t always exactly quite that way or there are other motivations for doing it, but a lot of the time to really make that kind of commitment there has to be some heart there. Now an awful lot of your work has focused on family foundations. GE: Right. JS: Can you tell me a little about when and how you came to go in that direction? 00:23:48 GE: That’s a good point. At this point now of my career I was doing education on every single level there was. As I said, you know, if it was corporate, I helped start a corporate conference and a community foundation conference. We grew that annual conference from a few hundred people to over 2,000 people. I was really; I was doing conferences in other countries. I was always, always interviewing people in the field to talk about, what were the issues we weren’t tackling, what were they dealing with that they really could use some, you know, support for. And one day I was talking to some people I knew really well in other capacities, but they said to me, You know, it would be really helpful if you would look at those of us who work in foundations where the donor, or mostly at that point, relatives of the donor were still involved. And I was a little taken aback by the suggestion not because it was inappropriate but because, well, wait a second, isn’t that how all foundations starts with a donor, and an awful lot of these foundations involve their family? Why has organized philanthropy or the infrastructure, if you will, of philanthropy, never done anything in this? So I went on the road and started talking to people about that, and I found out that, for the most part, organized philanthropy was not really comfortable with the family aspect or the trustee aspect even. It was mostly comfortable supporting the people who were the professionally paid staff folks in these foundations whether they were community, private, or corporate, and specifically program officers. So we were really good at putting on great environmental programs for environmental program officers, but maybe not much looking at governance, much less family dynamics. And I found out that there was not a lot of excitement about doing this because people thought it could potentially bring down the reputation of philanthropy as something that was very much a serious responsibility. It was very professional. We had systems. We had experts. We had forms, you know. And if you start talking about these volunteers and all this family stuff, what will the world think about philanthropy? Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 8 �And so we decided to start on a very small basis. I said, "We’ll just do one session within the whole big conference. And we’re not even going to have a program per se. We’re going to do an open-ended facilitated conversation about, what are the issues?" And we called it, All in the Family. Boy, were we creative. And we put it in a room that we would normally put an experimental session [in] which would hold about 150, and well over 250 people showed up for it. The fire marshal was screaming at me. And it was hugely successful. And I mean I lost track of how many issues people were talking about. It was so successful that we did it a second year. There was still nervousness, probably a little more so because now we were articulating the issues. We did it a second year and creatively we called it, All in the Family Part Two. And it was just amazing. And people were after me right after that and they said, This is so terrific. We’re talking about things we never have. How do we link family goals and philanthropy? How do we understand when to bring in adults that are the next generation into this? How do we understand what the donors really want? Do you want to involve your family? And if you do what does that mean? What about this family foundation we’ve heard about that, at the time, that is splitting up because they can’t get along? What is that all about? 00:27:40 JS: At this stage of things, these first couple of sessions, are the people who are attending and participating still sort of the professional staff types out of these foundations? GE: Nope. JS: Or are you getting some of these actual family members and things— GE: We’re getting family members, and they were the family members who were mostly also the staff for their family foundations. Or we were getting the professionals who were the CEOs, they may have been non-family members, but they were CEOs of family foundations themselves. But for the most part we were getting family members. We were not getting the professional staff. That didn’t happen for years. But anyway, they said, Well what if we put on a little conference just for us? And for a year or so we [were told], no, can’t do that, can’t do that. And I’ll never forget the reason we finally could do it was because the chair of the education committee, my education committee, was the president of the Ford Foundation. Now, you need to know that for a lot of people in family foundations the Ford Foundation was sort of like the antichrist. This is what happens when donors don’t take good control of what’s happening with their foundations. It could be like Henry Ford’s Foundation. And don’t we think Henry Ford is spinning in his grave? Well, that was just sort of nonsense. JS: Why would people have thought that? 00:28:56 GE: People thought the Ford Foundation, there was this incredible perception that the Ford Foundation was off all around the globe doing fairly liberal, all these socially conscious things Henry Ford would never have, and had anything to do with that. Well, first of all, I always was sort of impressed that people knew what Henry Ford would have done. But part of it was because Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 9 �Henry Ford’s son had had a fairly dramatic exit from the board. And so people thought this must have been a parting of the ways of a family and a foundation, and look what happens when you don’t stay on top of your foundation as a donor. These people will take it and run with it. Now incredible misperceptions, incredible presumptions about what Henry would have wanted and done. But, here’s this Ford Foundation that everybody sort of talks about what you don’t want to be, and here’s the President of the Ford Foundation telling the Council on Foundations, “We absolutely need to do this. If we can’t do this, who can?” And she was the one who sort of [made it possible], it was ok, I could go off with the first meeting. And I was told to have very low expectations. And don’t call it a conference. Just call it a meeting. And I prayed that about 30 people would come and 75 came. And it was, it was hugely successful. They are still doing them to this day. And the last one I did for the organization was in 1997. There were over 800 people that came. Now, in the course of doing that work I obviously got to learn a lot about what families care about, what issues they’re dealing with. I had to plan the sessions for those meetings. I really got interested in families and how they give, and how I could help them give. And there was just something about it. I really enjoyed it but I was doing it as a part of all my education responsibilities. Until one day in 1985, I was part of a staff that went to a program being held at Stanford University on The Future of Private Philanthropy in America. And it was really a very multifaceted, very sophisticated program. It brought in policy makers, it brought in academicians, practitioners, donors, you name it, to talk about what did it take to really encourage and sustain a healthy philanthropic sector. And it was very lofty, very exciting, lots to learn. And at the very, very end of that conference they were taking closing comments from people, and I must tell you that throughout the conference there were lots of sort of nasty comments about, and this was their phrase not mine, rich people. You know, if rich people would just do this, if rich people would just do this, and so we heard a lot about rich people from time to time. At the very end of the conference this woman, and I knew her, I was very fond of her actually, but who was very quiet through the entire program, she’s been furiously taking notes, stood up, and she said, like I said just going around for closing comments, "First of all, I have to confess to this audience that, I am a rich person." Everybody’s like… okay, didn’t realize you were in the room. No. But then she said that in hearing about policy and in hearing about effectiveness and favorable legislation and all this kind of stuff there was one thing she hadn’t heard anything about, and that was joy. And she said, "There is great joy in the privilege of doing this work, the opportunity to do this work, and the people that you get to see and meet doing it." She said that if she thought she could communicate that joy to her children, that she’d be doing her part in ensuring the future of private philanthropy in America. And it was Lucile Packard. And it’s just one of those moments where you sit there and [are moved]. [The] fights about whether we should be working on family issues, sort of all came together. And this is what I wanted to do. I really wanted to focus on this area. And several years later my mentor in the field, the one who'd been working with me for ten years, Paul Ylvisaker died. And it gave me a chance to think about what I wanted out of my career. I’d been doing this work very happily for a long time. But what did I really want to do? And it was not to be an administrator, not to be the head of the largest department at the Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 10 �organization with nine or ten different functions in it; it was to get to go back and dig deep into the program, and it was the Luciles of the world I wanted to do this with. And so that was, that was really the moment, and then the death of Paul Ylvisaker was the impetus for deciding I was going to change tracks. 00:33:50 JS: Were you able to change tracks within your existing position organization at that point? GE: That’s a good question, because I didn’t assume so. And I also want you to know that I was, I had huge respect for the President of the Council on Foundations at that time, James Joseph, who went on to leave the Council to become the ambassador to South Africa, had been my boss for a long time, and given me lots of opportunity and support, and I wasn’t going to make a change without talking to him. I automatically assumed it had to be somewhere else. I mean if you’re vice president of this gigantic department and you want to make this change to this concrete area that doesn’t even exist in the organization you work in; you assume you’re going to have to go somewhere else. I had no idea what that meant, I just thought I’d have to go somewhere else. So I went to talk to Jim, and to tell him. And Jim understood. He’s the one that had brought Paul to the organization, and he knew what working with him had meant to me. So he was inclined to be sympathetic. So at one point he said, “Well, Ginny, why do you need to go somewhere else to do this? Why don’t you do this within the Council? And you can leave your position.” He wanted me to stay a vice president. I talked him out of that. I said, "Please don’t make me go to officer meetings anymore," (laughs) I talked him out of that. He said I could stay in the organization. I could start a program on family philanthropy. He said, "You can research, you can write, you can convene meetings, all under the rubric of the Council." He goes, “You’ll be doing something good for the Council, and you’ll be doing something good for yourself exploring the area.” So it was really terrific that somebody was willing to be that flexible about this. And he did, he let me leave that whole department and found a new VP, let me change, created a different title, created a small team of people that I could work with. There were people immediately ready to provide funding. There were folks in the field, most specifically and early on, the Packard Foundation interestingly enough, by now Lucile Packard had passed away, but who came right in to provide it so we didn’t even have to rely at first on the general budget. We could do it with great support from the field. And so he let me do that. Now, it wasn’t all going to be peachy keen, because right after he made this plan and we put it into effect he was named Ambassador to South Africa. And also it was the time when Jesse Helms was sort of holding the State Department hostage. And so he was refusing to hear the confirmation hearings for new ambassadors. So poor Jim had to sit as sort of a lame duck somewhere torn between the Council and being the new Ambassador for almost a year while Jesse did his thing. And so when new leadership came in, new issues surfaced about whether or not family philanthropy was really the going forward calling card. And there were some just concerns about that, some very legitimate. When an organization is in transition, I learned that they just want people to help keep the oars in the water. And when you are part of a new initiative that is Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 11 �changing the composition of Council membership, that is changing the kind of people participating, you’re now talking about trustees and donors as well, and some people saw family philanthropy at odds with other kinds of philanthropy, well we weren’t keeping the oars in the water; we were, not intentionally, rocking the entire boat. And I think there was great energy and excitement about that as a future vision for the organization, but I think the dynamics of an extended transition meant that there was just great, great concern. And so it was very difficult to, sort of, you know, to do some of that and to be faithful to an organization I’d worked at for such a long time. So it was a three year program. I had hoped that it could be renewed as most other special initiatives were at the Council. It ended up not being renewed for a lot of politics. But even before it wasn’t renewed, I had decided that I was now ready to take this and take it somewhere else. I was very proud of the fact that what was being left behind at the Council was a great conference for families, there was a newsletter, there were issue papers, there was a real strong foundation for what was going forward. And as a part of my transition, I offered to do whatever I could to help prep new staff so they’d be positioned to do this well. But over the course of that three years, I started talking to people about what, not just what did the Council need, but what did the whole field need. And what I realized was that family philanthropy happens in lots of places. It doesn’t just happen in family foundations. It happens in community foundations, it happens at the Jewish Federation, it happens in gift funds, it happens in giving circles. It’s in family businesses is where it usually starts. The new family offices were holding it. Banks have tremendous amounts of family giving. And we didn’t see this whole big field of family philanthropy. Then people were much more comfortable with the term just family foundations. The field defined it by the legal structure people chose. I saw, my experience with families was they don’t define themselves by their legal structure. They may have had precious little to do with choosing the legal structure. They defined it by what their goals were for involving the family or for what they wanted to give to. So what I saw was you can’t just help the Council on Foundations, I wanted to help figure out how to help all those people. So I started talking to some of the best minds in family philanthropy, people who really understood this, and people outside of family philanthropy just to test my assumptions. And because being Sicilian we love a good fight, and god knows I’d been getting one. But anyway, I started asking them what they thought would be the most useful thing for the field in terms of advancing family philanthropy. And what we decided was that it was impractical to assume that every one of those organizations was going to be able to develop expertise about family giving, but every single one of them needed it. So the regional associations here in Michigan or in the Southeastern Council or Northern California, the Jewish Federation in Cleveland or in Los Angeles, Bank of America and Citigroup, these people all were going to need it. Now the only way they were going to do it or access it, is if an independent, non-threatening, read noncompetitive, organization with a collaborative spirit about how it was going to develop it and share it, could be formed. And so I started doing the background work for what would become the National Center. It is so important for me to say that I did this work for over eight months with any sense that I was going to go and work there, none whatsoever. I was being a good staff person. I was Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 12 �facilitating discussions, writing concept papers, getting the papers tested. I did focus groups, individual interviews. What is this amorphous thing? I remember sitting in a little, tiny Italian restaurant in Washington with cocktail napkins, each with a separate word on them, while we mixed and matched what would the name of this thing be. You know, the biggest discussion was about the preposition. We really worked on that for. It was going to be for family philanthropy not on or of. I remember that, with no sense that I would work there. After a point in time I went, you know, this is going to be so cool; I hope they’ll give me a job. And I even thought I know exactly who should run this. I had it in my head who should run it. 00:42:32 And the very last focus group, a couple of things happened. One, someone came to the focus group who was affiliated with another organization and I think felt a little threatened by the concept of this organization getting going, thought it would somehow harm his baby. And he was a little feisty, scared the dickens out of the person I thought was going to run this. He later on was like, you know I just don’t think this was meant to be. And I was like, okay your participation or the organization? Because if it’s your participation that’s your call, but if what you’re saying is what’s not meant to be is this organization, I can’t accept that. And he said, well it was his participation. Well, I went frantic. The next day I was to meet with a prospective startup funder. And I, all of a sudden, don’t have anybody that’s going to run this. So the next morning, having been up all night screaming, crying, yelling, in the New York Hilton, I met two of the people who had been most involved, the two people who had been the most involved in the founding of it. And I’m telling them this story and they’re both looking at me like I’m nuts. And I was like, what? They said Ginny, there is not a person in this country who thinks the head of this organization is anybody but you. And I went, what are you crazy? No. I was honest to goodness, genuinely taken aback. I, all of a sudden doing good staff work for something I desperately believed in, shifted a little bit, both because I’d lost this person and because they’re telling me that’s not how all these people perceive it. And I will tell you quite specifically, I not only grew up with no ambition to be a CEO, I actively resisted it. For all the reasons I hadn’t really wanted to advance within the Council system, it wasn’t administration that was interesting to me. And may I please tell you that I left arts administration because I didn’t want to do public speaking and raise money? And (laughter) now all I do is public speaking and raise money. So I was really shocked. But I said, you know what, you guys need to give me some time to deal with this; but regardless, I will go to the meeting with the funder. And so I showed up at the office of this person who had been really forward thinking about how this [new center] could think differently about this, and that their organization could invest significantly in the concept. And really also understood that he needed to do stabilizing funding for the first, you know, six or seven, eight years, which was really terrific too. But he’s also treating this just de facto as if now you’re the president, and as the CEO this is what you’ll do and dadadadada. And I’m thinking oh gosh, do I have a lot of thinking to do, cause now I’ve gone from asking for a job to, this is yours to do. I left; this was all in New York in conjunction with my very last family conference. I went back to Washington. There were some things going on in the organization, some changes at the Council, and me just sort of cementing the fact that it was really time to move on. And I went home one night, and I, this is a little side out of one of those secret things you [rarely] tell people, Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 13 �I have a collection of the art used in creating the Disney classic movies. As a part of my wonderful renaissance art background I developed an interest in animation. So in my house are all these cartoons and drawings from the great nine old men of Disney and they’re mostly in my den. So I went home and, something I’ve never done before, I pulled this blanket, sort of, up to my chin and this incredible calm came over me. And I said, "You’re going to do this. And the worse thing that can happen is a few cartoons are going to come off the wall." You know, it wasn’t the investment in the money, it wasn’t the risk of it, it was just, the right thing. And it was so much the right thing that I felt, I wasn’t even euphoric, I wasn’t sad, I was just very, very calm. And it wasn’t the way when I hired my first [staff] person. I threw up for two days hiring somebody else. I could take the risk myself but the thought of being responsible for somebody else made me nuts. But it was really the right thing to do. And the whole notion was that this organization would be very collaborative, very noncompetitive. We weren’t going to be a consulting firm. We weren’t going to be a competitor membership association. Everyone assumed we were going to compete with the Council and the Regional Associations. And I’ll be very candid with you, if back then in 1997 we had opened up the National Center for members; we would have had hundreds of members, because in my first six months I got two hundred inquiries for how to join. But I had to keep saying to people, we want you to support the membership organizations that you already support. We want to work with and through them. And that and I had to say to consulting firms and people that were advising donors, I don’t want to be a consulting firm. I’m not going to compete with you. I want to know what you’re doing and if you’re doing good work we want to be able to send families to you, but we’re not your competitors. If I published a major piece for the field, [I] didn’t want to put Bank of America’s name on it, because then Wachovia wouldn’t use it. So I had to deal with all of this how are we collaborative? And we found the exact right [name]. Thanks to a very, very good, strong, strong founding board, it developed really well. It has repercussions later on for the fact that collaboration doesn’t always build the best sustainable financial model, but it builds the best model to really be able to do this work in a very diverse field. But that’s, that’s how I ended up choosing, so I left my job at the Council in May of '97. I was supposed to have three months off. I was working on a four volume series of family foundations, huge; it was called the Family Foundation Library. It actually was delayed. It went all the way through my break, up through July, but I finished it. I learned to never agree to put out four giant books on the same day that all are going to fit in the same slip case. And I was going to take a nice long break before I started the National Center and I actually was driving to the designer’s on my way to Dulles. But I ended up leaving formally in July of '97. Worked again through August to get the book finished, and went off on a vacation and came back and the National Center, while I was in Ireland, the National Center’s incorporation papers came through. And when I came back to the U.S. they told me that, and so on September 8th I went to work. All by myself. JS: Aside from some of this business of convincing people that you’re not a competitor, you’re not a consultant, you’re not up to anything, what would you regard maybe as the biggest challenge of getting this thing up and running? 00:50:34 Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 14 �GE: Well there were a couple. Obviously the first one was, this person who had always been, who had done some administrative work but was largely a good program person, a good education type person, already had to run out, while I was doing that library series, learn how about nonprofit law, nonprofit incorporation, nonprofit finance. I had to find space. I had to find materials. The startup grant got delayed because of a funny hitch in the fund that was releasing the startup money. And so I figured out that it was a really good thing that none of my credit cards at the time had anything on them because I could max them out buying office equipment (laughter). I’ll never forget one of my favorite startup memories of the National Center is standing once in an Office Max, or whatever it was, Depot, whatever it was, with a friend of mine, holding a fax machine going, "Is it the MasterCard or the Visa that I still have room on?" (laughter) And so part of it was just me shifting gears. You can’t afford to just be a program person when you have to run an organization. And the first thing I had to do was build a great team of people who believed in this: a great attorney, a great financial advisor, a good human resources person, and a terrific board. I read everything there was to read about founders of nonprofits and the mistakes they’ve made. I really did. And I had a little list of all the things I was going to be cautious about doing. For example, I read that one of the biggest mistakes founders make and their boards let them make is that they start a board and they put everybody on it who just loves them dearly, and is going to "amen" everything they say. And that can’t happen, that just can’t happen. There was so much personal identification with me because of this; there had been a fair amount of notoriety in leaving the Council on Foundations. Seventeen years I’d been there. One woman wrote me a note, I’m sure she meant it to be a compliment when I was leaving, she said, "I can’t believe you’re leaving, you’re like a fixture." And I was like, oh my god, I’m the plumbing of the Council on Foundations. But there was a fair amount of notoriety, and I use the word notoriety, there were some people who were very happy and there were some people who were very angry. And so I really wanted the National Center to be more than the place Ginny landed. So I needed it to be not so identified with Ginny. So I decided (working with some people who really understood governance and nonprofit governance) we were going to put the board in thirds. I was going to pick one third people who loved me. Not that who would say everything I did was wonderful, but they were very supportive, and I could trust their judgment…a lot. The second, I was going to [choose] people who I sort of vaguely knew in the field, but I had a lot of respect for their approach. And another third, people who never knew anything about me but who either represented a wonderful diverse perspective or position, brought something wonderful to the group. I also wanted a board that wasn’t all family foundations. There were going to be community foundations and banks and advisors and consultants. It was, you know, fabulous. Nobody thought this group could work together. It was wonderful. So the first thing was converting a program person to a nonprofit executive, and everything that came with it. And it would have been very easy to have stayed in the program mode and just tell people just be nice to me because this is really hard, you know. The second thing which in some way was fundamentally more important and probably more difficult, although when it’s finally started to happen it was really brilliant and very reinforcing. You asked a question that my board asked at our first board retreat. We decided at the board meeting that winter, by the fall of 1998 we were going to have our very first board retreat. I had worked on this wonderful program. We were meeting at Pocantico which was [on] the Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 15 �Rockefeller estate up in Terrytown, Hudson [River] area of New York. I thought, how great to be on the grounds of one of [the great] philanthropic families, first family. And the day our retreat started was the day of my mother’s funeral. And I had to fly from the funeral to Tarrytown, and I hadn’t been to bed for three days. And I just remembered here was this incredibly important meeting and there were a lot of people going, maybe you should just stay home. And I was like, what are you kidding? So finally I got there and I said, "Okay, the only thing I want you to do," and I said this to my chair, I couldn’t say it to the whole group, "Just don’t ask me anything hard." I said, "Please don’t ask me anything hard. I have no brain. It’s so mush." And you can laugh about it now because the circumstances were comical; at the time they were just miserable. But you just talked about all the things we weren’t. And that was what we spent a lot of time telling people. Well at this board retreat, I had one particularly insightful board member, who I wanted to kill, say, "I think I understand all the things we’re not and why. What do we stand for? Ginny, would you like to take that question?" (laughs) JS: Gee, thanks. 00:56:38 GE: Yes, really, so much for nothing hard. And I did what every good facilitator did was I punted it around for a little bit and said, "Let me throw that back to you and let’s get into a discussion." But what it did is it affirmed the fact that we could comfort people by telling people what we weren’t going to do to hurt them. But to inspire and engage them we had to get them behind what we were. And it led, that discussion, led to me going back to Washington and creating the statement of values and guiding principles for the organization. It was almost like, and if you’ll please forgive the self aggrandizement this appears, but as a great student of American history, why people thought it was important that the American colonies had to articulate why? They just didn’t want people to assume why there had to be a revolution and this statement of independence. I said, "Oh my, it is the same thing. We have to have a statement where we articulate what we are and why and why this has value." And not only that, but it could not be lofty. It had to be grounded. And we had to put that statement out and say, If you ever see us do something that is contrary to one of these values or principles, you need to call us on it because we want you to do that. And so I would say the second hardest thing was reaching the decision that we needed to do that work, to do it with a very full heart, and with a real strong sense of what that was going to say to the world about what we were. And I’m very, very, I’ve written so many things in my life, I am no more proud of anything other than that statement. And it really did, it was our chance to say this is what’s important to us. And I’m really happy, on our tenth anniversary we had the board review the statement to see if it was holding up, and it absolutely did. They wrote, well they approved, a timeless sort of statement that was at the same time very relevant. So I would say those two things were the hardest for me both on personal levels, one operational, one fundamental. JS: What was it essentially that you said you stood for? [Change tapes.] JS: We were at a point in the conversation where I was asking, can you just lay out briefly what you see the core values really are? Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 16 �0060:10 GE: Well first of all, one of the things that we wanted to say was that we valued all family philanthropy. We valued all of the vehicles people could choose. We valued all the motivations and, you know, inspiration that brought them to this point and all of the variety of program and vehicle options that they had. We believed in excellent, ethical, effective philanthropy but beyond that, we had a great respect for the diversity of options and choices that people would make. We wanted to be a very, very collaborative organization. We valued our colleagues in this role; we wanted to support their work and their ability to serve their family constituencies. And we were going to be very respectful partners in that work. And we valued the voices of families. Everything that we did was going to have that lens. And when we wrote, we were writing for the whole field we hoped, but the family perspective, the family voice, was going to be included. And so we were going to shift the way we had, that philanthropy had been writing specifically for a staff audience, and we were going to write as if every opinion and perspective had value. For example, it’s not enough for me to put out a paper on funding the environment for program officers, if I’m not going to write also for trustees about why should this be a priority or how do you want to think about this as a priority. So we were going to change and make sure that that perspective was respected and valued. And we wanted to the extent we could, to tell it through the stories of families that we wanted to be that voice, we wanted to have that trust, we wanted it to have that honesty and that integrity. And so there are actually about nine or so principles. Don’t give me a quiz. At one point I could probably do it. But then the second thing that as I said was very important is beneath each principle we wrote how our work was going to reflect that. And we were essentially saying to the field, we expect to be held accountable. And part of that, I would have to say overwhelmingly ninety-five percent of that, was that chance to articulate what you value and how you were going to work. Five percent of it was because there was still a lot of controversy. And we wanted to respond to that, not in a defensive way, not into answering attacks, but as if to say, this is who we are and you have every right to be concerned if we do something other than this. JS: Because of this, the emphasis that you’ve got, a lot of these family foundations in many cases are local or regional or you’re reaching out to state and local councils and so forth, you go all over the place; you talk to all sorts of people in the process. And we’re in an area right here in Grand Rapids where we have, it’s a small city, but it is a city. It’s got some major businesses based here. There’s a certain number of families with their own foundations that have done very significant things locally and beyond. How characteristic is the Grand Rapids area or West Michigan of other regions in the country? Do we have things here that are distinctive in certain ways or do we fit a pattern that you see a lot of? 00:64:00 GE: Let me start with a little bit of the how I came to know about this, the preface, because it’s a great coming around to where we started, and then talk specifically about western Michigan. First of all you remember my second day at the Council and that filing cabinet about regional associations? I took to them like crazy. And that group of the regional associations around the country, the Council of Michigan Foundations, the New York Regional Association, Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 17 �Philanthropy Northwest, you name it, and my very first programmatic job was working with all of them, and I worked with them my entire career. When the National Center got started, the regional associations were the most open to working with the National Center. They were the first at the plate to say, We have family members, how can you come and help us do this work better? They were the first group to start inviting me out to their area and it was all because of this relationship we’d been building up since 1980. So and Michigan, as I said to you that very first meeting in 1980, there was the president [Dottie Johnson], then president of the Council of Michigan Foundations. So I had really gotten to know their organizations and staff, and to some extent their membership as well. First of all, they were willing to accept me in a very different role. Now I’m not this educational facilitator, I’m this sort of program expert or whatever. And I came out and started listening. And western Michigan was very clearly one of the areas I needed to pay attention to. In some ways it is incredibly distinctive and in other cases quite representative. Let’s start with the distinctive. You say Grand Rapids is this small city. For a small city it has a very, very rich, very vibrant family philanthropic community. The numbers of families who are extraordinarily generous and active here is uncharacteristic of cities this size without a doubt. You have only to walk around this campus and look at the names on buildings to get a real sense of not only how diverse and rich this community is in philanthropy, but in how committed they are to western Michigan. That is one of the areas where it is fairly typical too, that many family philanthropies start with a very strong commitment to the region in which they’re based, even when the family begins to move away from that. They really, really care about that community, having a university, having an opera, having, you know, a good Y, having whatever it might be as you look around Grand Rapids. This is very, very typical of the kind of commitment families tend to have to their region. But there’s just nothing typical about the numbers of families, the extent to which they’ve been generous for a city its size, you expect to see this in a city much larger. And I know of much larger cities that don’t have the same profile, for whatever reasons, they don’t have the same profile or the same sort of picture of family giving. JS: One of the things that at least stands out to a more general audience in this area is, you have a certain number of families that are fairly visible with their giving and in a lot of cases the first generation founders are either still alive or are of the World War II generation and have passed on only recently. But now we’re seeing future generations kind of getting involved and doing different things and spinning off in different directions. That kind of thing is going to happen with family foundations across the country. What particular types of problems do you see confronting family foundations that are really sort of front burner issues now for you? GE: Well let’s split that community out to the two you talked about. For those foundations that were formed during the big, big period of foundation formation, 194660, there is a tremendous period going on right now of foundation transition. Transitions are the most vulnerable and the most exciting. They hold the most potential for promise and for disaster. We did an almost eight year study of multigenerational family philanthropy in this country. It was the first one ever done, published a few years ago, and transitions were a huge focus of that, because some families handled them very well and some don’t. So the biggest transition is a transition of leadership and participation. And that’s just one. Who will be called into service? Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 18 �Are they well prepared for that? Are they committed to this work? Are they doing it by duty or by choice? Who will provide leadership? Who will be left off? So there’s a whole set of very difficult choices around leadership succession, everything from inspiring and preparing to selecting leadership. There’s a huge programmatic transition. To what extent will this philanthropy be able to continue the work it has been doing? Within the parameters of the intentions and instructions left behind, is the family still committed to that same area? What if everybody left western Michigan? Is the money going with them? Are they still going to have some sense of legacy and responsibility to what the donor’s original giving looked like? What if the family is just all over the map in terms of their interests? Where they live? And what if their sense of the family philanthropy is, not so much, ask not what you can do for your foundation, ask what your foundation can do for you, you know, and if that is the case, how do you switch the dynamic? So the second big difficulty and struggle for those foundations is understanding what it is we’re going to do together. To what extent are we looking for a shared sense of purpose, a shared giving mission? And to what extent are we going to accommodate individual perspective and interests? And that’s a huge dynamic that starts at about the third generation. And depending on the number of family members, gets more or less difficult. Depending how many of them have moved away, how many of them have married people that understand the dynamic or fight the dynamic. So there’s a whole generational succession around family and there’s a whole generational succession around program. Both of those provide ample opportunity for struggle. For newer foundations I think that’s a different kind of struggle, not only newer foundations but all the new vehicles. Because in that case there’s been tremendous momentum and real vitality about how these people, mostly younger people, you know. The notion that this is something that happens in your seventies, well that’s just changed. This is some- I mean very, very, wonderful philanthropic leaders at a very young age, people who have been running their very own philanthropies in their fifties for awhile, and this is not something you do in that last stage of your life anymore. For them the challenges are different. Do they want to engage another generation? How do they feel about perpetuity? Not so much for some of them. And there’s been a lot of knocks to some of those great late 20th century donors. The economy has certainly caught them up short. There’s been criticism of some of the way they approached this work or did this work. Did they make enough of this decision, enough of that decision? Were they respectful enough? Were they active enough, generous enough? And so for them I think the challenge is how do you maintain that momentum and vitality? How do you take that enthusiasm with which you entered this, and find a way to sustain it as something that’s an important part of who you are, and then whether or not it’s going to be an important part of your life and your children's’ lives going forward? So I sort of compartmentalize them that way. JS: What kinds of problems have really come up from the large scale economic downturn like we’ve had? You have a lot of money in investments and the investments vanish. What happens to family foundations, what kinds of things happen to them at that point? GE: Most family foundations in the last year or two lost between, average thirty to forty percent of their assets. That’s an amazing hit. JS: Cause these are endowments that generate the funding for everything. Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 19 �GE: These are endowments, exactly. Now there are a lot of people in advised funds and other kinds of giving vehicles where it might be pass through, not that they weren’t hit either, you might have less to pass through. But for those who put money aside to ensure that the giving was always there for the community, that endowment took a thirty to forty percent hit. And that’s significant, some it was more, but thirty to forty percent. The good news is that we’re starting to see the ones that stuck it out, recovering. Some panicked and pulled it out, so they’re not recovering so quickly. But for those that took the hit, lots came on the table. “Oh my gosh. I truly knew that it was good philanthropic practice to make multiyear grants. I wanted my grantees to be able to count on the fact that they were going to get money every year for three years whatever it might be. That’s good practice, it stabilizes them, it’s good for me. Well I might have made those promises based on one set of assets, and now I’m dealing with another set. So that may cause me to do everything from realize that, do I really want to do multi-year grants in the future? Even though I’ve been told there’s such good practice for grantees?” Or, “all of the money that I have for discretionary giving is tied up in promises that I made two years ago, what do I do with all these people who have critical needs right now? Do I end up going above a threshold of payout that means I’m dipping into principle? I may be, you know, fundamentally endangering the ability of the corpus to go forward especially if I’m interested in perpetuity. How do I make the most effective choices now? Do I pick a few organizations I really care about and do my best to sustain them, or do I try and take a lot of organizations that are struggling and make small grants?” There are a lot of choices. And so for families, the economy presented all of those. JS: What do you do for those families? Or what kind of assistance can you provide? 00:15:05 GE: Well first of all one of the first things that we did is that almost immediately when we realized what was happening, we commissioned a fairly immediate, we were not going to be able to do a long, longer term study, [we’d] do that later. But we did a very intense canvassing of the family philanthropy community and asked them, How are you responding to the economic crisis? What issues are you facing? How have you made choices? What helped guide you in those choices? What resources were helpful? And we immediately put out a major paper. I think it was called something, Families Step up: Dealing with an Economic Crisis. We wanted people to understand these issues are things we’re all facing. Here are some questions that we think you need to answer more immediately. And here are some that you may see more fundamental to your choices going forward. And one of the things we were trying to do was to help people not start questioning their long term strategy, we don’t want people to start dumping multi-year grants because of the immediacy of need, but we did want them to be able to answer some questions. We also wanted to give them some models of how their colleagues were handling this, so that they could see some options in this. We wanted to be prepared as a staff to what these issues were and [how] we were called on [to help.] The interesting thing was, the National Center is a grantmaking resource center, but in order to do its work it has to be a grantseeking organization. So we were sort of caught at the crosshairs of this too. People had less money for us too. Our phones never rang off the hook as Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 20 �much as they did [then]. With everyone from trying to figure out what do I do, to I lost everything. [Or,] my attorney general is after me because I invested with Bernie Madoff. What do I do? So I mean we heard it all. But one of the next things we did was try to identify the two or three fundamental [issues] being tested by the economy. And one of the most significant was payout and perpetuity. And so we immediately went into work to help people understand how they could begin to think about those. There were a lot of foundations that said, Do I have to give up my commitment to perpetuity? Some said, I absolutely do have to give it up. I’ve got to get money into these nonprofits and I’ve got to do it now. If I’m in trouble, god knows they are. So a lot of people started worrying about this. But we had other families go, wait a second; we’re not giving up our commitment to perpetuity. But we’re certainly going to step up the payout, because they need it. Now, when this crisis is over, we’ll reassess and reevaluate. And maybe we go back to a practice where we’re still committed to perpetuity. It might be off of a smaller corpus. But we’re not going to not be there for the people. And the one thing about family philanthropy that distinguishes it is this is not a professional obligation. This is not a dispassionate kind of activity. Last night [I was part of] a conversation, [and] we had this moment where we touched on self interest versus community interest. Families don’t see those as distinct. They’re part of the community. If they care about things in the community, if it’s important to them, they assume it’s important to the community. And since the community are the ones teaching them and helping form their commitments, they see that sort of synergistic relationship, but more importantly they can’t imagine their communities without these nonprofits. And so for them it’s not a matter of, I’m sorry I’m keeping to five percent, I’ll see you after the crisis is over. These are organizations they’ve been committed to in some cases for generations. And in some cases they’ve served on their boards. They know how much they mean to the community. This is not a bloodless transaction. They feel, you know, what’s going on so it’s really very, very stressful. Now this does not mean there have not been foundations who go, nope we’re going to try and keep as close as we can, but for the most part family foundations will stick with the grantee for a longer time and payout an amount greater than other kinds of philanthropies. So payout, perpetuity, those kinds of issues, very much called into practice. That’s what we could do and do more immediately. And do a lot of handholding. Oh my. JS: That kind of gets us back, sort of, to the people which is kind of where I wanted to wind up. I mean you had sort of mentioned the Lucile Packard story with the idea there that an awful lot of this involved that joy, I really think you’re doing something important and valuing it. You’ve gone out and talked to a lot of family members from these foundations, and so forth, and in this country and in other places in the world, and so forth, and are there, I expect there’s a lot of them, but are there particular examples of some of these people that you meet where that quality kind of stands out in terms of the way they talk about what they’re doing or how they value what other, people kind of stick with you a little bit in your mind more than others? 00:20:19 GE: Specifically, specific individuals? Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 21 �JS: Yes, well you don’t have to name them necessarily, but the kinds of things— GE: No absolutely. First of all I’m always, always impressed that family members want to talk about their grantees. And the sort of lighting up of the face comes from talking about the people that they’ve funded and that sort of inspired them. I mean the notion that so many of them sort of want to be calling the shots. There’s almost this living vicariously through the wonderful work of grantees that I love. I was speaking recently with someone, there was a study commissioned recently on the role of sabbaticals for nonprofit executives and a group of family foundations commissioned it. And I was talking and what I was appreciating is an example of that particular story, is that when this person talked about the nonprofit leaders in the community, she was talking about them as this enormous community resource, and that the leadership of those people had to be as valued as any other political or business leader that that community relied on. And that the opportunity to give them a chance to take a break, to renew, to energize, and to come back; she said for small amounts of money sabbaticals cost [they could do this]; it's a small foundation. She said what we’re able to do to say, Look we can’t do this work we don’t have your passion your talent but we could do whatever we can to support you. Now a lot of foundations wouldn’t think of supporting a sabbatical as a program, project, you know, operating, whatever it is, grant. She saw that value of leadership and they inspired her quite a bit. Another thing that I love, I’ve met and I’m thinking of someone in the Midwest who at a time when it was very unpopular recognized that they were doing some things, and they had historically been involved in voter registration projects and a lot of things that were controversial at the time. This family not only had a very, very large family philanthropy, they had a very, very prominent international business. And there came a time when the reputation of the business was being attacked because of the work of the philanthropy. And this leader, the head of the family, had to say at one point, we weren’t going to back off. If the business was harmed because we believed in voter registration or the job training projects or whatever as we might be doing in the south, mostly they were funded in the south, that’s the way it’s going to be. But this is what we do. But what I loved about that was the behind the scenes story, because it was, this donor was incredibly enlightened please don’t get me wrong, and he was very, very committed to the work, but at one point, as I understood it, he was feeling a little vulnerable cause he was the CEO. And he was, well maybe I should be paying attention to them, am I doing the wrong thing? And at that moment his sister who was also very prominent, very active in the community, very big leader in the company, stockholder, called her brother she knew exactly the moment he needed to be called and going, "I am so proud of the work we’re doing in the south. I’ve never been more proud to be a member of this family or a stockholder of this corporation." And it was just the thing he needed to say, "Our business could be hurt by our giving and we’re going to, we’re going to suffer through that if that’s what it takes." I mean, there absolutely have been. I remember once the wonderful privilege of talking to Irene Diamond and most people would know Irene Diamond because I think as the story goes, she’s the woman who discovered the script that became Casablanca. But she also married Aaron Diamond and who was very well off. [They] had a foundation in the mid-80s about the time America was understanding something called AIDS. And they had a large, large foundation, the Aaron and Irene Diamond Foundation. And the two of them thought about this crisis and what it was doing to the communities they knew and cared about. They were based in New York. And Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 22 �they realized that for them perpetuity wasn’t going to be the answer. This was a crisis and they wanted to step up. And they committed to a ten year spend out of what I think was about $160 million. And they were going to do everything they could to influence the AIDS crisis in this country. They were going to put money into medical research, they were going to put it into hospice, and they were going to put it into education and prevention. And many, many of the breakthroughs in the way we helped prepare people, treated people, and did research, were possible because of a massive commitment to doing something bold, and something not really popular if you think about the mid-80s; we were all still talking about blame back then. And they were like, this is not the time. And they did. And they had a wonderful executive director who worked with them to go out and learn everything they could about a crisis that was still in the making. They almost had to become the experts, and to spend that money well and spend it in a finite period of time. That was genuinely, genuinely important to them. And yet I go up to the family in the Pacific Northwest, its six generations at the table later and you look at Laird Norton, which was Weyerhaeuser money. And you realize that here’s a family where the six generations of adults of philanthropists is still getting together, still talking about what this means to the family, and how we do it well. And it’s really a wonderful image for me to carry when I go to that first generation family who’s going, oh my goodness, how do we get started? How do we get started? But so many people who’ve just taken that moment, that great story, and helped me understand it. And I think the nicest thing for me is, I have interviewed hundreds and hundreds of families, and one of the things I’ve discovered is that first of all most people are a little reticent to talk about their giving. Now, it’s not because they’re necessarily unassuming people or even that they’re necessarily humble, but this is not something they think they do, they do it out of passion, they hope they do it well and they’re even proud of it. But they don’t know that what they do as such is an example for other people. And or they think if I talk about it, it sort of feels a little messy. But when I tell somebody that if you’ll talk to me about your experiences, especially the things where maybe it didn’t go so well, somebody else could learn from it, all of a sudden, oh, I’m going to talk to you. I’m going to help you. And if somebody else could benefit from this then of course I will. I mean so the generosity isn’t just financial. It really is, if I can share the experience… But there are people who have been just profoundly moving. I mean, it’s not that it’s without error but they, all that they feel, is palpable, the responsibility they feel, the privilege they feel, which essentially is what Lucile was saying. A woman that I interviewed for the most recent piece talked about the fact that she really thinks that this is a way that the family can relate to the community in very important ways, important to the family, and important to the community that we care about this. What can we do well? She feels that sense of partnership. And she’s the one who said to me, sometimes we underestimate the love part of philanthropy. Especially when you think that the word [philanthropy] itself [means] love of mankind. And she said, you know, it’s the best part. It’s the best part. And I think that’s an interesting dilemma for me personally because I live in this environment where effectiveness is everything, and I sit down and people will say to me, Well how do you measure your impact? Not just those outputs, how do you measure your impact? And I hear donors talking about that, and I think it’s very important that people understand what it is they’re trying to accomplish, and whether they’re getting to that. But I loved too the quote in the most Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 23 �recent study where someone says, "I hope that doesn’t lead us to a place where there’s a disdain for the more charitable work that is sometimes needed in a community." Because it is important to be effective and have evaluation processes that make you understand whether or not you’re being effective, but it’s also important that the caring that you bring to this is evident. It’s the best way to keep you grounded and engaged and certainly the most inspiring way for me. JS: I think you’ve told us quite a bit here about what family philanthropy is really all about, and in certain ways what is distinctive about this as an area, and why it’s important to actually both study it and find effective ways to support it without trying to impose some other kind of external model upon it. And so I think at this point I would like to thank you for coming in and taking the time to talk to me. GE: Thank you very much. It was really a terrific experience. Thanks. I learned a lot myself. Oral History Interview with Virginia Esposito, February 18, 2010 24 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/18d0c22260146a022c4ac28bd9b0996b.mp4 043263538161006e6d70c79896e1f14f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f3c0d47969306503dc14a785a70f4b3.mp4 66e4ddf1199a54e4e4926afc7f728397 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (JCPA-08)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Esposito, Virginia video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Esposito, Virginia Description An account of the resource Virginia Esposito (Ginny) is the Founding President of the National Center for Family Philanthropy. She discusses her early life, education, and work as teacher and administrator at the Council on Foundations, and CEO of the National Center for Family Philanthropy. She also discusses meeting inspiring international leaders, experiences with her mentor Paul Ylvisaker, the origins and development of the National Center, regional associations of grantmakers, and the Grand Rapids philanthropic community. She shares discoveries from hundreds of her interviews with families about family foundation transition, the economic issues of payout and perpetuity, and the challenges and feelings of responsibility and joy of foundation giving. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership, Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Personal narratives Charities Michigan Associations, institutions, etc. Women Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_EspositoV Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Relation A related resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-18 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e884dcc474af631fb8a9423ec1d7601.pdf e63529b0bcc9c8db842c608ece6be351 PDF Text Text ������ https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce89850311e3c4a5a839554e5a750c03.pdf db5bbc4569ff53c8915415104d781140 PDF Text Text Abraham Lincoln. The superficial reasoner and the hypercritic[?] will regard the just views upon the Character of Lincoln as fulsome admiration of the dead, but the Student of history, and of the agency of man in Creating it and he who watches the phases of human progress, who Scans the Changes in the [?] thought which finds expression in the laws enacted for the Advancement of national interests, and for the benefit of Communal meal, find in the Study of the Characters of the men who impress their individuality, on their era an interesting occupation. Such was Lincoln. It is through the impress of mind on the natural things of life that beneficial effects ensue, when the intelligences are rightly divided. It is through the calm, dispassionate Criticism, the Exposition, so to speak, of the Philosophy in the actions of the individual that Greek judgments are formed of his influence on his times and of the benefits that are to occure [occur] in the future of the nation’s life. Abraham Lincoln lived --- the type of a life devoted to the cause of human freedom, and he died, a martyr to no insane folly revenging personal disappointments, but a martyr upon the altar of human equity, before the law and made in his death a Sacrifice to the principles of human freedom. Mr. Lincoln stands --- the central figure in American history in the 19th Century, and his martyrdom is the [?] of this era. Washington, in his relation to American history and the cause of freedom is the Central figure of history in the 18th Century. �But Washington represented the forces of human progress which marred against the material interests of the dominant race in Colonial politics, in which the question of human freedom so now [?] has no place. The inherit rights which man to man, regardless of color, have to personal liberty, has no place in the causes leading up to American Independence. In the above sense, Independence was a mis-nomer, and its application was limited to questions of purely material moments of a Socio-Political Character. We intend no disparagement of Washington --- do not detract from the benefices of humanity flowing from his trials, sufferings, courage, magnanimity, fulfillment and [?]. Under Providence he prepared the way for which Lincoln was to consummate. In the parable the grain of mustard seed was to develope [develop] into the wide spreading tree wherein the birds of the air were to find refuge. The parallel is found in the humble, low born if you please, Child of the prisoner’s home on the prairie, where under the tutelage of the flowers of the field, of the blue skies of heaven, of the solemn music of the fresh, of the flights of the birds, he inhaled the oxygen of freedom, and the instincts of humanity were slowly refined into that broad and comprehensive patriotism which ranged[?] him on the side of the oppressed, newer[?] him to the defense of the right, gave him the Courage of Convictions, the ability to maintain them, and prepared him for that ultimate election of national dignity where he became the exponent and the protector of the rights of man �to full personal liberty before, under and to the law. It was the seeds of liberty in the feelings of the individual that opened the living exponents of the principles therein involved. [?] to humble elation and Circumstance in life, informed with educational advantages of any moment, Conscious of innate principles of right, it is well to note that under the most adverse Conditions of life he developed these principles of Simple integrity, [?] and maintained with high character for unquestioned honesty, which culminated in his elevation to the highest dignities the public could bestow. Deceit, evasion, subterfuge, equivocation or any other place of difficulty was foreign to his nature. He Seemed the living exemplar of extreme truth. He was a man, with human foibles, human weaknesses, and Conscious of the Affects of early education he made no pretensions to be other than the man of Simple integrity. Most men lead two lives. One before the world which judges them by what they see, not going below the action to judge of the inducing motives, and the other, or inner life, wherein they rest in the Knowledge of their new motives. But Mr. Lincoln was a Character so pure and free from all ulterior intent that it may be said that he had no inner life. Candor, honesty, integrity were transparent qualities in him & Seemed as if the [?] impress of the truths which he drew from the fountains of nature in his youth so informed his Love that his nature was guideless of ill intent, and in the seclusion of home, as in the most exalted official elation, his native [?] stoid[?] forth, �His personal integrity was so evident, Chicanery of whatever kind so foreign to him that a guise was needless and impossible. The Republic, in him, recognized and honored personal integrity. We do not know that he ever read Dean, who wrote, “The worst of crimes believe it generous youth Is to buy life by selling sacred truth, Virtues’ the gem of life, the sage’s stone, And life is death when honor is no more.” But[?] we know that the sentiment Controlled his life, and though there may have been uncouthness in person and of manner, none who sought him whatever the mission, ever failed to be impressed by the dignity of the truth and Sincerity he expressed. Magnanimity was a strong feature of his character. No one man in American history has been [?] by political enemies, and no man has given nobler evidence of the truth. These aspersions reached to his private as well as official life, and the shallow minds of many pain to see the moral of an [?] anecdote was more potent often than the reasonings of a lengthened argument. This trail was nobly exemplified in the Christian sentiment, “With Malice towards none and with Charity for all,” a sentiment more broad in its application than any recorded as being spoken by mortal man. It Contained the essence of the sermon on the mount, and it was an essential expression of the humanity within his Soul, for it was directed to those who sought the downfall of the Republic. Rare words, spoken in the horn[?] of the nation’s surest trials, when �The ground was yet incarnadined with patriot blood shed for national defence, when the wail of the widow and the cry of the orphan rose to heaven a protest against ‘man’s inhumanity to man,’ when the moans of the wounded and the dying were almost ringing in his ears, there came from him who stood the Central figure and the humanities[?] in American history the golden words, “With Malice towards none and with Charity for all.” We need not review the progress of Mr. Lincoln as he endeared himself to the nation as it strode on in the defence of human rights, nor to review the crowning acts of his life expressed in the Proclamation of Emancipation. That act, its antecedent causes and all relating to it an historical[?]. &[?] received the economies of a [?] world and placed the nation on a pinnacle of honor unknown to history. He who desires to study a [?] character, in which the elements of truth, of personal integrity, of inflexible honesty in thought, speech and action, of large hearted benevolence, of the Christian sympathy and magnanimity are harmoniously blended, can do no better than to Sit down and ponder the tributes of his memory and his worth as a man, which are so [?] given by the representative world of thought in America, and presented to the public, through the affectionate [?] of the friend and admirer, O.H. Old[?], in the Lincoln Memorial Album. From such study one will rise filled with a desire to emulate the virtues which gave dignity to a true manhood. �the Simplicity of his character is admirably expressed in the tribute of Mr. Frederick Douglass, that “he was one who could take counsel from a child and give counsel to a sage.” The old man, scarred with the [?] of life’s conflicts, and the young man, bucking on his honor for the strife of life, may each learn from these tributes what constitutes true greatness in human character. The young man will learn the value and integrity as essentials to success in life. The aged can retrospect their lives and be stronger through the practice of these virtues, and one may all been witness to the truth which Abraham Lincoln is a Standard of personal and morality, truth, honor and integrity; this profound Christian magmamity, to his broad statesmanship, and gratitude will swell with such a man was the Chosen instrument of Providence to [?] a Republic into a Nation the cornerstone of whose [?] is Reckon from any form of human bondage, and they will unite in pledging a sacred truth. By all we have, By all we are, by all we hope to be To hold this heritage free --- this birthright bought with blood. Norman D. Sampson April 29, 1883. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4436 Title A name given to the resource Essay on Abraham Lincoln by Norman D. Sampson Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1883-04-29 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sampson, Norman D. Subject The topic of the resource Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865 United States--Politics and government--19th century Essays United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Washington (D.C.) Description An account of the resource Essay on the legacy of Abraham Lincoln written by an admirer. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5604cbaafce2a11a8a25f1d2d0e7f045.jpg ddde23027000dc83208391aa941fb518 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_674 Title A name given to the resource Essex class aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30703e0f1291877ff96ab18d6403c89d.jpg 22d1800c1f01a90c1600fad2091be8d4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_661 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91ef05756b79e518ee8d5f0041e4a26a.jpg f42b58953dc650192b8e25775200184a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_664 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f8ac86840bae5a407a3fcea7a74097b.jpg 5c3052f8190ab46907d7f6300b89aaa5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_665 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a0dc0d6958f0c503c3e1a86a185eac06.jpg eb6e372d0a0e4c5271a320a47a485969 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_666 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b110d13299023b82248f9131911d910.jpg 1d09cf270cb6fc5f24e6da00ced79c7b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_668 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25c19bfa22da1de416b89d26229b8563.jpg 0101f22e30c13c8ecf78fbee88e09bd5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_669 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4561dbb3cd4033c22b70afef5df73b65.jpg 6fa1a978a4cc90118f6b4b5f3b9fd361 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_670 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/42e9b170d9661f29a3f7a8183e3476c2.jpg 5f6d0f03b3cbcdd8983f55f67f1755dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_671 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24cb7b558a84150ff9b7b7bd60208ddd.jpg be27635a9bd4f8dd2a5f75b90f873fe8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_672 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce2a7f5578270400ed43a3ef4ba34708.jpg 9a8f4320ef6b15e7828b27f8b1cbc45b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_673 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b8b70f63774a2d68e0bd38cccb193a2.jpg d9428ae717675375add6fde9accfffd6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_675 Title A name given to the resource Essex class, aircraft carrier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource Essex class, US CV (aircraft carrier), October 1, 1947. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947-10-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives