284 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/00770fd44b7e454c3992eb9bffa49295.jpg e84bb3f133efe856c716d8d1a0cced68 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Red-Misc-48 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965 Title A name given to the resource Dyases Return Description An account of the resource A page from the weekly Red Barn News, which includes the season schedule and prices, as well as articles about several returning Red Barn Theatre staff. There is also an order form to gain membership to the Red Barn at the bottom of the page. Duplicate of Program-132. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Community theater Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of Local History from the Saugatuck Douglas History Center for the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41975ed171d3020ad9340aac6f2648f7.mp4 41fff71f77a8b183b85ce56380d1d6ca https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97561c88b769b0e54893e5ef19f66293.pdf d97b76deb1f96de000b41decb24e9a0a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Chester Dykema (00:22:00) Background: Dykema was born in 1927 Dykema entered the Navy in May 1945 and served until July of 1946, exiting as a 3rd class motor machinist. Did basic training at Camp Schumacher in California in August of 1945. (0:50) Enlistment: Dykema enlisted when he was 17 since he knew he would be drafted when he was 18 and the Navy offered clean linens and better food. (0:06) Towards the end of the war boot camp was cut down from 12-16 weeks to 6. Dykema recalls all the men there being 17 or 18. During basic the men were marched, fired arms and learned Morse code. (0:45) Hawaii: Just before the war ended Dykema was sent from California to Hawaii aboard an LST with 100 other men. War ended while en route to Hawaii. When he arrived he was assigned to Mobile Explosive Inventory Unit 4. Some of the unit was sent to Japan. (2:50) While on the LST going to Hawaii. Dykstra recalls being relaxed and not worrying about enemy submarines. While in Hawaii stayed in Quonset huts with a beer hall nearby. Dykema talks about the point system used to discharge men and being one of the last to leave. (4:20) Dykemaa sometimes ran the liberty boat from the West Lock to fleet landing. During the morning his unit would detonate Japanese and American ordinance in the hills and then have the afternoon off and sometimes hunted pigs in the hills (6:14) Dykema talks about the mail service and censors during his time in the service. Also had good and plentiful food, especially for holidays. (9:06) Mornings would begin at 7:00, and Dykema would often go to the beer hall in the afternoon where he recalled drinking a beer from Pennsylvania. On December 6, 1945 the Army and Navy reenacted the attack on Pearl Harbor. (11:14) �48 hour leaves were available. When on leave usually went to Honolulu, and dances at Schofield barracks with the nurses. (12:35) Dykema was amazed at the amount of knowledge and education the people around him had. Some in the navy were in their 40’s (14:03) Life after the service: After he was discharged he was met by his sisters in Chicago and rode back to Grand Rapids. Dykema attended GRJC on the GI Bill, worked for Life Savers setting up displays for 3 years, then started doing heating and cooling work from which he retired in 1985. (18:28) Dykema feels that the military teaches respect, physical fitness, and getting along with others, and is proud to have served. (20:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dykema, Chester (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dykema, Chester Description An account of the resource Chester Dykema joined the Navy during WW II in July 1945 and served until 1946. Dykema tells of life in Hawaii after the war during which the military was demobilizing, and about his life upon returning home. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Paggi, Daniel (Interviewer) Forest Hills Eastern High School (Ada, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-02 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DykemaC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/450a1343562c281016aae4d0dc059e2c.mp4 6b23239ae2c7b6de26ea7f39ed06e2ca https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ce6f90ed0f43b16ce4c79d3e38bb3f4.pdf 445ecc4df065e69b1c8430035d127aa7 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW LES DYKEMA Born: July 18, 1949 Grand Rapids, Michigan Resides: Interviewed by: James Smither PhD GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 13, 2014 Interviewer: Les, can you start us off with some background on yourself. To begin with, where and when were you born? I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1949, July 18th. Interviewer: Where did yo grow up? In Hudsonville, I spent my life there. Interviewer: What did your family do for a living? My dad was a truck driver and my mom was a maid. We did a little bit of farming. I went to the Christian high school and then spent a year in junior college because Calvin wouldn’t take me. I’m surprised that JC did, and after the first year I had a 1.5 grade point and my two friends had a 1.3 and a 1.2, so we weren’t coming back. The Vietnam War was heating up at that time. Interviewer: What year was this? This was in 1968 Interviewer: It was pretty hot by then. Yeah it was heating up really, really well. 1:01 We figured we would all go in together, because they were going to get drafted and I didn’t want to go by myself, so we went into the Military Police Corps. Interviewer: When did you actually go and sign up? 1 �We signed up on the six month delay program, okay, which means we could have six months to do what we wanted to and then we had to go in and that was November 15th of 1968, when we had to report. Then we went on to Fort Knox and on to Fort Gordon Interviewer: Talk a little bit about the experience at Fort Knox. First of all, you had to go for a physical at some point right? Yeah, that was in Detroit, and when we got to Fort Knox I volunteered for three years, I was not drafted and I knew I’d made a huge mistake—I hated it, absolutely hated it. Then I got called into the office, and I was probably three weeks into training, and my commander called me in and said that my dad had died in a car accident. 2:06 He said that I was going to go home and that I had to be the man of the family, take care of business and come back. So, I did, I left and went home and got home and was coming into the—we grew up in an old farmhouse, and my dad was there and I about crapped my pants, but it turns out that it was my aunt Charlotte that had died in a car accident, and somehow they got it all screwed up. So, I was there and I was a pallbearer for my aunt Charlotte and three or four days went by and my dad said, “Well, don’t you think you should be going back?” I said, “Hmm, I’m in no hurry”. 3:00 Well, a week went by and I got a call from one of my friends I enlisted with and he said, “You better get back here, because I talked to the commander and I let him know it was your aunt and not your dad, and he’s very upset”. So, my dad was a truck driver and he loves to drive, so he drove me back to Fort Knox and it wasn’t good, okay, it wasn’t good. He was very, very angry, so after training, me and there were a few others, we’d have to get our brooms and we’d march out to the tank training areas and sweep the sand to get the tracks—you 2 �know, it was a harassment thing, and then we’d come back and we did this for a while, it wasn’t pleasant, but I made it through and then we went to Fort Gordon. Interviewer: Did you have to restart the training cycle after being off just a week? No Interviewer: So, you just went back and joined in. I went right back and joined in. Interviewer: Were the drill sergeants any better than the commander, or was it all pretty much the same? 4:03 The sergeants were a whole different breed. I think I embarrassed my commander, you know, I think he looked like an idiot and that did not bode well for me. Interviewer: Did you have any trouble physically with the training and couldn’t handle that? No, I was nineteen years old, it wasn’t bad, I just didn’t like it and it was cold. Winter in Fort Knox is cold, it’s cold. Interviewer: Were you still in an old WWII barracks, or did they have better ones/ WWII barracks, and the same way at Fort Gordon when we got down there, now they’re all gone, but they had to be heated with coal and in military police training they get you up very, very early, they don’t give you a lot of sleep and you wait in line to eat, in formations. It’s constantly at parade rest, straight, two steps forward, parade rest, and it can take an hour, or an hour and a half before you can get in and get any chow. 5:03 Then you only have minutes to eat it and you’re back in formation. Well, it’s dark at four thirty in the morning and me and a friend—being that they were WWII barracks, there was an opening underneath the buildings like this and then it went where the steps would 3 �come in. Well, underneath the steps it’s somewhat secluded, so I thought it would be a good idea--we have an alarm clock, it’s dark, nobody would notice us gone, “let’s just go on in there, set the alarm and sleep another hour , hour and a half and then get back in line and have breakfast”, and you know, this worked so well, so well for about two weeks. We’d crawl out, nobody would see us crawl out in there, alarm, and then one day I heard steps and I could look up through the slots, and they were really polished boots, and just about that time the alarm went off. 6:00 It was four, or five, drill sergeants, they came right around and we were busted, we got busted. My job there, until the end, was to remove coal from a big coal bin over here to one over there in a wheelbarrow. So, that type of punishment and they didn’t care for what I did, but, you know, I got a lot of rest and you gotta do what you gotta do. Interviewer: You got a couple more weeks of sleep. What does the MP training actually consist of? Lack of sleep, a lot of discipline, a lot of discipline, never knowing—they do stuff, they come in with a white glove, they look around and they find any dirt, everything had to be GI—they come in the middle of the night and wake you up with pots and pans, you get up and make a formation, they check your boots, everything had to be perfect. 7:02 Everything had to be just exactly perfect. Interviewer: Were they teaching yo anything yo would use on the job? Well, you go through the typical stuff, you’re train with your forty-five, okay, you train how to deal with people, what’s expected, what not to do and it’s hard to say, you know, a lot of it is classroom stuff and I don’t even remember what they talked about to be honest with you. 4 �Interviewer: Military law maybe, what the rules are? Yeah, yup, what’s expected and so, you know, it went through its eight weeks and I hardly had any sleep, but I’ll tell you, at the end of that eight weeks, I think that any one of us, they could have put us on the roof of a building and said, “Jump”, and we would have done it, we would have done it. The training, it breaks you down and then it builds you up and then here’s the product, but I’ve never liked authority. 8:02 I’ve always had a problem with authority and I still do today, and it has not fit me well. Interviewer: But, you managed to get through that round of training without getting yourself kicked out, or sent back to the infantry, or something like that? No, I would have loved to have myself kicked out, but that wasn’t going to happen at that time. Interviewer: You got into the MP’s in the first place, because you were willing to sign up for three years, was that part of the deal? My dad was a MP, so father like son, I guess, I didn’t know what I wanted. I knew I didn’t want to do what Mike did, I didn’t want to go into the infantry, that was dangerous, you know. Interviewer: But, they were giving you the option, that when you enlisted you were able to pick at that point, and was that an exchange for going for three years? Yes Interviewer: You still have that—different people have different levels of control over what they do at different phases of Vietnam, so that places you where you want to be. If we were drafted we probably would have ended up in the infantry. 5 �Interviewer: Yes 9:00 If we go another year, maybe we can pick something that, you know, stay out of that area. Interviewer: So, when did you finish. Let’s see, it was November, December and January 15th we headed to Georgia and February, March, about the end of March. Interviewer: Okay, and what did they do with you at that point? We got orders and I remember my friend-- and I looked when he came running up and he said, “Hey we got orders, we know where we’re going”, and I said, “Where are we going?” He got quiet and he said, “I’m going to Alaska and Jimmy D is going to Alaska, but you’re not going there, you’re staying here”, and I said, “Okay, I like Georgia”, but that was only temporary, because anybody who could stay there was sent and after six months I was the longest there before they sent me to—which was fine with me, because Jamie was going to hook me up, which didn’t happen. 10:03 Interviewer: So, you basically spend six months on active duty at Fort Gordon after training. What were you doing there? I was fortunate enough to be stationed at a military recreation area and it had three large connecting lakes, one for officers, one for sergeants and one for the public and regular GI’s. It was a wonderful period of duty and we had patrol boats, you know, we lived on the compound, in the woods; I mean it was a very, very nice tour of duty. Interviewer: Now, you’re living in Georgia at that time and were you aware at all of any kind of civil rights things that were going on? Did that affect life at the camp at all? 6 �I heard about the riots in Detroit and that was about it--that was about it. 11:00 There was one situation where we went swimming and the sergeants area in the lake and they had a dock and we had one black guy that lived with us. We swam out to the dock and he was not a good swimmer and we came in, he dove down and he just kind of went to the bottom, which was, maybe, only ten feet to the bottom. I came after him and I went down there and here he was doing one of these numbers, he was going to drown and I took him by the legs and I kept pushing him up so he could get air and another guy came and we brought him in. What was interesting about that was everybody in that house that we lived in , there were about six of us who lived in there, everybody had gotten something stolen, everybody except me. 12:00 I think I know who was doing the stealing and I think I know why I’m the only guy that didn’t get anything stolen from him, but other than that, no it was—I never noticed any of that. Interviewer: Did you get to go off the base much? Yeah, we lived off the base and you could—it’s like a job, once you’re done with training you can go, yeah. Interviewer: While you’re there are other people getting called and being sent off to Vietnam, or other places? Yes and new guys are always coming in, and yeah, I got my orders and you have to take a bunch of shots and I had the dry heaves for about two days and it’s terrible, but then you’re ready to go. I went home and then I went over. Interviewer: Alright, you’re sent—and once you go home then from home do you go to the point of debarkation and where did you go out of? Yes and where did I fly out of? I think I flew out of Oakland, California. 13:04 7 �Interviewer: Did yo fly out of the airport or there’s an air force base there, Travis? I don’t remember, I know it was Oakland. We left there and stopped to refuel, I believe it was Anchorage and we went across and I think we stopped at Wake Island and refueled, and then went on. I’ve been over twice and the one time we flew over we stopped in Japan to refuel. Interviewer: Probably the normal route would have been Anchorage and then just Vietnam, because Wake would have been kind of out of the way. If you go by Hawaii you might stop at Wake. Maybe it was Japan and there was an island the second time, there’s an island there someplace where we stopped, a real small little dinky place with one building on it. Interviewer: Yeah, Wake and Midway are both like that and they’re both small. Yeah, really small and they had a thing to the Marines there. Interviewer: Yeah, it was probably Wake Island, because they defended Wake at the beginning of WWII. 14:01 Yeah, I’d go nuts if I was stationed there. It’s beautiful, but you’re in the middle of nowhere. Interviewer: So, when did yo actually arrive in Vietnam for the first time? About three o’clock Interviewer: In terms of the date? In terms of the date, I got there in October of 1969. Interviewer: At three o’clock in the morning? Yup, you see the Vietnam coast and you know everybody in the aircraft, because we’re all eighteen, nineteen, twenty year olds, and we’re all curious, you know, everybody’s 8 �peering out and trying to see what—it’s going to be a new experience and some of you guys aren’t coming back, so everybody’s pretty curious and pretty quiet and, yeah, it looked like a normal coast all lit up and stuff. We got down and at three o’clock we were all assigned. Interviewer: Where did you land? We landed, I believe at Tan Son Nhut Air Base. Interviewer: Near Saigon? Yes, right outside Saigon Interviewer: You land at three o’clock in the morning. Now, what was supposed to happen, what was your plan at that point in terms of your assignment? 15:05 I just assumed that Jamie would have my name set aside, you know, that I would be called and he would be there, take me aside and assign me some cushy job somewhere. Interviewer: So, who was Jamie? Jamie Kernmeier was a friend before I went in the service and we did a lot of hunting together. He was a great guy, but it didn’t work out that way, you know, he was sleeping when I got there. Interviewer: What was his job there? He assigned all new incoming police to their units throughout the country, there out of Saigon. Whoever needed what, he just assigned it, so he was going to assign me next to Saigon and that would have worked out well, but it didn’t. Interviewer: So, what happened with that? There was somebody else that worked that shift that night and they assigned me to the 1st Cav and they assigned me to a place called Phuoc Vinh. 16:03 9 �Interviewer: Now, did you stay at Tan Son Nhut for a while, or did you stay around that area, or did you go straight out to your unit? You didn’t stay long, you got something to eat, you know, and then you got into different lines, they put you in different lines and took you form there—a bus comes and picks you up and gets you to your new units. Interviewer: How did you get out to Phuoc Vinh then, was that on a helicopter, or truck? No, it was just a bus type thing, and the bus drops us off. Of course the commander comes out and introduces himself and told us the sergeant will take you and show you your cot and here’s your spot and here’s chow, you have to be up at this time and give you your duties sometime today, or tomorrow and show you what you’re going to do. 17:00 Interviewer: Did they give you any—the combat—guys coming for infantry, artillery, and things like that joined the 1st Cav at this time, they went through what they called the “first team academy”, and a welcome to Vietnam course. Did you get something like that? A little bit, but I think that’s mainly for infantry, you know, because they’re the guys that are going to be humping out there, but I don’t remember much of it other than you got a “welcome to Vietnam” and just go over stuff that you need to know. Interviewer: What were your first duties once you’re there? They assigned me to a gate. I had a check all trucks coming in and out of that area and did a pretty good job, but I did notice that this moped would come in and this interpreter and he’d leave and just go by me and wave. This went on for about four, or five, days 10 �and I stopped him and wondered what was in the bag and it turned out to be military food, canned, and he was probably selling it in the village and making money. 18:02 I stopped him and he said—I was taking somebody else’s, and I could get a little bit too, so there was a ‘black market” thing going on and I refused, because I was trying to be a good soldier. I’m glad I had my M-16, because he started putting his hand on his fortyfive and I brought my sixteen up and radioed and they brought some more MP’s and the confiscated it and they took him away. I thought, “Wow, I did a good thing”, but then the commander brought me in and instead of saying, “Hey, you did a good thing”, he said, “I want to ask you something, do you know how hard it is to get good Vietnamese interpreters?” So, I was taken off the gate at that point. That started that downward trend in that Military Police Corps for me. 19:00 One thing led to the other and I got sick of burning shit, got sick of it, got sick of getting up in the morning, I got sick of being harassed by this sergeant, and I woke up one morning and decided, “I’ve had it”. I went outside the area and it was pretty early, six o’clock, and the infantry unit next door was in the field and they had a picnic table there, so I lay down on that picnic table and went to sleep. It gets hot, and it wasn’t long, a couple of hours, two or three hours, and it was pretty hot and I got up and went back into the military police compound and went back to my cot, and here comes this sergeant just spitting angry, just irate, enraged and started yelling at me and screaming at me. 20:00 Interviewer: Why was he mad at you? Because I didn’t show up for reveille and he had been harassing me, and I’m not conforming and I’d just had it. What are they going to do, they’re not going to shoot me, what are they going to do? The screaming and yelling was not that great, but then it’s 11 �like I didn’t hear him anymore, it’s like I could hear him, but my mind just shut off. I grabbed my M-16 rifle and I loaded it and as I was turning around, he was already running like hell out of the building, and I go right behind him. I’m not going to kill him; I have no intention of killing him. This man has fucked with me for quite a while and now I’m going to fuck with him, and I did. He’d run between these tents with these lines and he’d trip over these lines and every time he turned around and looked at me his eyes were about this damn big. 21:03 Every time he did I’d put that rifle on him and he’d and he’d squeal like a little girl, crawl and start running again and I chased him. I wasn’t going to kill him; I just wanted to really fuck him over. He went into the command bunker and then I retreated into an inter-perimeter bunker, unloaded it, set the rifle here and the ammunition there and maybe that much water at the bottom of the area, and I’m sitting there. It wasn’t going to be good; I was going to be going to LBJ, Long Binh Jail. Most of that are black troops and I’m nineteen, a military police kid, I ain’t going to stand a chance in Long Binh Jail, ain’t going to stand a chance, so you try to figure out your way, “What are you going to do now?” I stood up and I looked out the firing holes and I’m surrounded with other MP’s with rifles. 22:01 I’m not going anywhere; I sat back and said, “Okay, they obviously know where I’m at. If I come out of here with this rifle and get stupid, they’re going to shoot me. If I don’t do something soon they’re going to gas me out of here, just simply throw in a CS gas container and they’re going to gas my ass out of here”. Then this sergeant Jackson appears at the top of these steps going down, as the sun was behind him, so he cast a shadow down these steps. A M-16 when you take it out and pull it back it discharges a round—you put this—it’s got a button where you can hit it and it will chamber another round, but there was no clip in it, but it was ready to 12 �do that. He starts coming in and he starts saying, “I’m coming down and I’m going to take that rifle away and you’re coming out of here with me”, which would have been perfect for me. 23:03 Just let him play the hero, but I reached—I watched the light come up to about the middle of his back and I reached over to the M-16 and hit that button. He heard it chambering, but it wasn’t chambering a round, he just thought it was, and I’ve never seen a guy turn around, fall on his knees and crawl out of there so fast in my life. I’m thinking, “there was your opportunity, there was your opportunity”, and then I heard from my commander, he says, “Private Dykema, may I enter?” I said, “Yes sir”, and he came on down and he seen the rifle and the clips and I’m sitting there and he sits down next to me, “What’s the problem?” I said, “I’ve had enough harassment, I’ve had enough, I’m not going to do it anymore”. 24:00 He said, “Well, what if— sometimes when somebody like you and some of my sergeants don’t get along, would you like to leave the unit and go further to the front?” I said, “I would, I would”, and he said, “We’ll make that happen”, and he leaves. I peek out and I’m not surrounded by anybody and I take my rifle and clips and I walk out hoping I don’t get hit in the back of the head, or anything, you know, and I go in and I sit down on my cot, and nothing, like it never happened. About a week went by and I found the commander and that E-7 Jackson and I said, “Sir, you were saying that I was going to go, get out of here”, and he said, “Well, we’ve talked and you’re a problem and we’re not going to give another commander our problems, so you’re going to spend your year with me and E-7 Jackson here and he’s going to have a full duty for you”, and that’s where I started to have to burn shit again. 25:01 Then they finally kicked me out. The commanders list for toilet paper pretty well did it. 13 �Interviewer: Can you explain that, because you explained it off camera, but not on, and basically you had a process by which you got yourself moved out, so what did you do? Well, you know, my job was as a punishment was to what they call burn shit, and it was a half a barrel and you put these big gloves on and you pull it out and you go to a vat and you pour it in there and then you pour diesel fuel in there and stir it around like a witches brew and light it on fire. Not difficult, you got to me careful though when you move that, because it tends to get out of control—you learn real quickly, and you burn it twice a day. After I wasn’t going to be leaving, I started my own little thing where I would harass them. 26:04 I’d go in and I’d take my glove and I’d take out a turd, for a better word, that’s what it was and during the day when E-7 was there—the first time I put it under his pillow and got it all set, the way he made his bed, and put it under his pillow and the next morning he had found it. Irate, I mean irate—I was suspect, but anybody could have been doing it and I never told anybody I did that, so even when they offered a vacation at Vung Tau for three days, you know, anybody who gives this a name, and even the commander, at three o’clock, when I went into his command bunker and sat behind his desk and put his hat on, I opened the drawer and saw a list of problem soldiers and I’m in the top three. Interviewer: You went into his office? Yeah, he’s sleeping, he’s not in that area, he’s sleeping. 27:00 He never heard, its three o’clock in the morning and nobody’s up. Interviewer: So, you went in, sat at his desk and put his hat on. 14 �I put his hat on and looked around, opened his desk drawers and stuff, looking around, hey, what are they going to do to me, I’m already burning shit, okay, leave it to me. I found this list and I went into his private john and used it as toilet paper and left it there for him to find. Interviewer: So, this was a list of what? There were the top three and all three of us ended up being removed at the same time. One gentleman was on there because he had two grenades, one with E-7 Jackson’s name on it and one with the commander’s name on it and they found them in his foot locker, so obviously he was going to be gone. There was one other one that just came and started shooting—didn’t hit anybody, just shooting up between the tents. 28:00 So, there’s the three of us, there’s two incidents, I would have been the third, and I think that’s what saved me from going to Long Binh Jail, because the unit would have been investigated at that time. Yup, he came in one day and said, “Pack your stuff up, you’re out of here”, so I did and went to headquarters and there’s the other two guys on the list with their stuff and you know, you throw your stuff out and they go through your shoes looking for drugs, or whatever, stepping all on your clothes with dirt and you put it all back in and they go through the same thing with the other two. They’re right on ya, you know, they—they’re intimidating, they’re intimidating, they always are. They dropped me off at a combat engineers unit and that commander told me I wasn’t going to be any problem for him and showed me my job with the generators, eight generators, a little milk stool, and that’s where you sit. 29:00 “Stop, fill it up, check the oil, fill it up with fuel, start it, do you think you can do that?” “Yeah, I can do that”. Well, you sit on a milk stool 15 �between eight generators all day with a tin roof over you, you go nuts. I sabotaged two of them. I put dirt in the gas container and they died. Interviewer: How long had you put up with it before you did that? A week, a week was enough, I’m not going to have my sanity back, I’d had it and it’s time to change the dynamics of the situation. That would have done it, and it did it and a couple of sections went black and they needed those generators and obviously, I’m the obvious suspect, obviously. So, Bowman took me and it was twelve hours on and twelve hours off, seven to seven went in this underground, like a tube, and it had a switchboard and someplace to sit and then it had a door and it lit down there. 30:07 I thought, “Hey this is really cool”, and they said, “Well, we figure that while we’re sleeping you’ll be awake and while were awake you’ll be sleeping. You’ll be down here from seven in the evening until seven in the morning”. “Okay, this is cool, this is fine for a couple nights”, so at three thirty I go in there and I wake up the cooks, and at four o’clock I wake up the commander, and everybody had a set schedule that I had to wake up. Other than that— you don’t get a lot of calls in Vietnam, okay, it’s dead, no books, and oh my God, after three days, “Whew, boring”. After a week that changed the dynamics again, okay, and I figured, “I’ll let the cook sleep in and I’ll get the commander up at three o’clock”. 31:02 “I’ll get that first sergeant up at quarter to three”. I just screwed up their whole schedule and then waited for the thing to change, which it did. Bang, he came and pulled me in his office with two other sergeants and said, “Get your shit together, you’re going to Song Be”, and I said, “To do what?” He said, “You’re going to be part of a demolition team”, and I said, “No I’m not, I don’t have a MOS for that”, and he said, “You’ll learn on the job, chopper will be here shortly”. It did and it flew me out to Song Be, 16 �introduced me to my new unit and I should have just stayed comfortable burning shit, but that’s when I started working with them. Interviewer: Now, the demolition team, what kind of work were you actually doing with them? We were—you know I never wanted to be part of the infantry. We were attached to the infantry. 32:00 We were attached to tank units for mine sweeping in front of them. We did go into tunnels, but we didn’t find the tunnels like they found in the central highlands. You know, most of the tunnels we found were empty. They still made you go in and I never worried about finding anybody there. I was more worried about snakes, because it’s down—it’s cool down there and even to go in one, you know—I was a hundred and sixty-five pounds at that time, six two and everybody says only the short guys do it, but if you’re part of a team they’re going to get real sick of you saying, “Oh, I’d go in that tunnel Jeff, but you’re shorter than I am, you go every time”. No, you draw straws and the short straw goes in. Then you have a dilemma, if I draw right away there’s a one in ten chance that I draw the short, or I can wait and there’s a good chance that somebody else is going to draw it before I do. 33:00 But then, as they draw these long straws out, your odds get bigger and bigger until there’s two straws left. Eeny meeny miney moe, and how we always did it was, we took a flashlight and a forty-five, and it’s dark, and we would hold onto each other’s legs like this and I would always, first, take the flashlight and do this, because, obviously, anybody who’s in there knows they’re not going to get out alive, probably quick to shoot, shoot my hand, and in this case I took my forty-five and I slowly move through where I was going to put my face and chest and see if anything moved on it. When nothing moved, no shot, then you slowly lower yourself in 17 �and, you know, you look around, the ceiling is only about this high, you can’t stand up, and then you see another dark hole from about here to that wall. 34:00 There’s some things there, bandages and different stuff, but nothing of much value, and then again, you crawl in and you don’t get in front of the hole and do this, shine the light in, you get next door and put you flashlight on again and see if anybody shoots you. If not, you crawl through there and up and you can see there’s an opening on the other side and you crawl out there and nothing is in there and you blow it up, take munitions and we blow it up, collapse it. Interviewer: These are not big complexes and things, just little spider holes that might have a little tunnel and a couple exits? There were tunnels that other soldiers found that hospitals and all that stuff, but we never—where we were we never found any of that stuff, thank God. Okay, we do a lot of wiring; we do a lot of Bangalore torpedoes, but when they bring in—usually what we would do when they were going to start a new LZ and they needed an area for choppers to get in, our unit would rappel down with a C4 and we’d blow an area quickly while the other birds were just circling, waiting to drop their troops in. 35:11 We did that, and once we did that, we had to clear an area once we had security, and then we’d put in the wire, set up a perimeter, and we’d do the Bangalore torpedoes. Now, a Bangalore torpedoes probably an eight foot piece of pipe that fits into each other and we’d wire that with det cord and they’d blow, okay. It cleans everything level and gives you a field of fire. Interviewer: is that clearing out the brush, or whatever’s around outside the perimeter? 18 �Yeah, wherever, and we’d hook a bunch of these in, so they’d be long lines and then two feet over, again, and again, and again and then we’d wire them up. At that time we used electrical blasting caps and you’re supposed to have crimpers. 36:02 A crimpers is a little piece of equipment that you take the electrical blasting cap and you put the det cord in and you crimp it down. We didn’t have crimpers, so we used our teeth, which looking back was really stupid to do with electrical blasting caps, but nobody—nothing happened, but we were really, really, lucky. We had this all wired up and I’m sitting among it with two of my friends and we’re getting ready to blow it, everything’s set, and the infantry loved this shit, because they loved the fire, they loved to see this. I said, “I’m thirsty, I’m going to go up the hill and get some water”, we had water up there. So, I left and I walked about fifty yards and right over the trees you could hear this thump, thump, thump, and a helicopter came in and came right over the top of us, and the gunner had lashed himself in and was hanging out like this giving the peace signal as they came through and buzzed us. 37:01 I don’t know if that’s what—how it happened, but it triggered our munitions. Somebody said it was the AC/DC batteries in the aircraft and I don’t know if that’s possible or not, but electrical—it went and munitions goes very fast. You don’t really have time to—it’s just “whoosh”, and it just—and through the dust my two friends, they come out like they’re dazed and they looked okay, and then all of a sudden you look at their pants and they’d be starting to turn dark red, red, so you could see something was bleeding and their shirts started bleeding and their face was starting to bleed and just backs and everything. They came out and collapsed and medevac came and got them out. I don’t know if they survived or not. 38:00 Very fine shrapnel and I have no idea what damage it caused, but it wasn’t pretty, and I started thinking that a lot 19 �of these types of accidents happen and it was probably a week later where a chopper came in and they were looking for door gunners, volunteers, for Charlie Company 2/27 Ghost Riders Helicopter Battalion, so I talked to my—at that time there was another minor accident that we lost two more guys and we’re down to, maybe, six and we’ve only been doing this two months. We got a lot of time and I looked at that and I went, “I’m going to volunteer”, and they all said, “Are you nuts?” and I said, “Are you nuts? Do you like sleeping out here? Do you like doing this?” So, I put my name in and I didn’t hear much, and then we were sent out to a place called LZ Defiance. 39:00 The tank units were there and every so many yards was another tank. It was a small area and we were sent there to mine sweep as they patrolled. And, yeah, we find a lot of mines, they weren’t hard to find. They buried them at night, so in the daylight you could see where the ground had been disturbed and we never missed one. They were round, about like so, round with a big nipple on the top for anti-tanks. We’d dig them out and put them in an APC behind us, and we always cleaned them out, we never hit them, and we’d sweep and I hated sweeping. I wasn’t too afraid of an ambush, because those are tanks. That goofy guy up there on top of that tank, on that fifth, they wear that big—you know, are you going to ambush a tank column for Christ sake? I wasn’t worried about that; it was just the heat, and the sweeping. 40:02 There were three of us and every so many feet—one guy went in with an M-16, and another guy out further with an M-16, and a guy out further with a headset sweeping, sweeping for mines and we’d rotate every fifteen minutes. LZ Defiance, it was just right on the border and a lot of B-52’s would come through there, and it was part of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, you know, and a lot of their markers, where they check, had been blown up, so you could hear activity, and they 20 �started to do what we call “mad minutes’. During the period, sometime in the evening you’ll get a call and the chain commander, “only fifty” and they’ll just in one minute fire into the dark. It might be M-60, it might be M-79’s, it might be the M-6 machine gun, you know, something, M-79 grenade launchers. There would only be one weapon, indiscriminately, “mad minute”, keep the enemy off balance. 41:03 It must have been about three o’clock in the morning and I’m awake, I can’t sleep, and I was talking to a friend and it’s a quiet night, and pitch, pitch black, there’s no light, and all of a sudden we heard a “pheew” and we looked, and probably fifty yards out a NVA soldier had hit our trip flares. It lit here and it lit here and it just lit them off and it was like slow—it was surreal, because we all seen him and he was like stunned. He was realizing what had happened, he had bumped into our line and he was totally lit up. 42:00 It was like we all shot about the same time, and it probably happened like this fast, but it didn’t seem like it, and the man was dead before he hit the ground, and then they hiss, go out, and everything gets pitch black again. “We’ll wait for the sun to come up again and we’ll go out there and see what we got”, and yeah, he was definitely dead. He didn’t have anything on him and we figured he must have gotten lost. He didn’t have a rifle on him, he was stumbling around and he didn’t even have a rifle, and was probably out trying to find his unit. Then a chopper came in to pick up our guys and take us back to Song Be. I was glad to get out of LZ Defiance, glad to get out of there. During the day where the B52’s—it was still smoldering and it was hot, you could see the heat waves and the smoke, it was like a trip to hell. 43:00 Interviewer: Could you hear, or feel, the blasts from the B-52’s when they bombed the area? 21 �Oh yeah--- well, if they’re far enough away you could hear the bum, bum, bum, bum. The B-52 is pretty awesome and I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end. They sent us back to Song Be and we wondered why we’re here and our Major said, “Well, the water truck goes down about three miles to this bend in this river and they’re pumping water out and distilling it, so we have water and somebody’s taking pot shots at them up in that ridge. They don’t want to go unless they get some protection”, so they drew our guys back and said, “Tomorrow morning go on up there and get up in that ridge and catch that guy coming in, and if you can take care of it”. Well, that was better than LZ Defiance, so we get up there and it’s getting light, we cross this little river, in the bend, and head up in the ridge. 44:03 One guy drops off and another guy drops off and it was kind of an open meadow area coming up and I looked, and I’m a deer hunter, and I could see something had come up there, probably an animal, but I wasn’t sure. It teed where this huge tree had been struck by lightning years ago and had a big old hollow area inside, and all the big leaves had grown over it. I took my rifle and I looked in, so I crawled in there, figuring I had the best spot and I was just all geeked, man, I was just really geeked, I had just the right spot, I’m going to watch him come up, he’s never going to see me, I’ll wait until he’s ten feet away, I’ll put two rounds in his chest and claiming that rifle, I was all geeked and thought, “This is all going to work out really well, I’ve got the best spot”. Then nine o’clock came, ten o’clock came and it got hot, eleven o’clock the bugs are on me from inside the tree and I’m picking them off me all the time. 45:02 I’m listening and the birds are chirping, you know, and I’m thinking, “Nobody’s out there, he’s onto us and he ain’t coming, he’s not that stupid, probably some doofus from that village down there” , and about two o’clock it got so miserably hot—and when we 22 �first got there I noticed this old tree with the roots going into the bend in the river and it kind of hung over, and there was a long rope there. I figured the village kids must get up on that ridge and swim. Boy, that sounded pretty good, I peek out and I see nothing, I step out and I see nothing, and I went and got the guys to see if they wanted to go for a swim. They all agreed, so we all went out there and went up on this ridge, got this rope and stripped butt naked. I was the first one, and there was a big knot on the end that you’d sit on. 46:00 I sat on it and leaped and it was a good ride, but there was a rock that came up and you had to lift your ass up or you’d hit the rock and you went out to the river and I let myself go. Shhh, it felt great, a little muddy, but it felt really great. I’d swim and crawl up the big roots of this tree and go up and the next guy, and the next guy would go. Then it’s my turn again and just as it was too late to stop, my eyes on the far bank picked up movement. My brain wasn’t seeing a figure of a man, but there was movement there, but it wasn’t picking up what it was, but there—I’d see movement, but it was too late and I’m going down and I’m looking at that far bank, and I’m lifting my ass up so I didn’t hit the rock and as I went out and just got ready to let go I seen it. It was like the huge body of a large anaconda and a big old black point went “bloop”, into the water. 47:04 Pretty soon I’m like this, swinging back and forth, and the water was about this far below my feet and they’re up there calling, “What’s the matter? What’s the matter?” I said, “There’s a great big fucking snake”, and they start laughing and said, “We’ll throw a concussion grenade, don’t worry about it”. You know, some had three second fuses, they’re supposed to have five and you do a quick—you do the math, you’re up there—1-2-3-ehh, ehh, ehh, “No, no, don’t throw nothing”, and then they’re laughing and said, “Well swim for it and we’ll cover ya”, and about that time I look below my feet 23 �and the water starts to move and I see this big head come up. 48:00 Its mouth was going wide open and closed and I saw the teeth, and I looked into those eyes, those yellow eyes and there’s a difference between terror and fear—I felt terror go up my back. That snake might have a brain only like this, but he communicated to me very clearly what the deal was, very clearly. In fact, so clearly, I almost lost my grip on the rope, and then the big head went down and everything in my being says, “climb”, and I reached as high as I could and I yanked myself up and this thing came out of the water where my legs would have been and his mouth snapped about two, or three, inches underneath my ass and “whoom”, he want back in. I looked up on the ridge and they were all standing there with their mouths open. 49:00 I climbed straight up down there and by the time I got down they had their boots and everything on and we went back up on that ridge until close to dark and came back. I guess my point of that story is that it doesn’t take the enemy to kill you. You can die from your own stupidity, and it’s an environment that you’re not necessarily on top of the food chain and that’s tough. Song Be was our little area where we’d come back and where we operated out of and I remember Sunday morning, we came back and I was going to build this thing where we could shave, you know, I got some wood and stuff. It was Sunday morning, about ten o’clock and I had the Stars and Stripes military magazine, you know, telling us how we’re winning the war, and I went in the shitter and there were about eight holes cut there and I was in there about a half an hour, did it stink, yeah, but there’s nothing to do. 50:02 So, I’m reading and reading and I got done and I walked out, I walked out of the shitter and I walked maybe two steps down and walk up here about as far as that wall and I look up and I see these soldiers just dropping like they’ve been hit with nerve gas, “wham”, 24 �hitting the floor and things seemed to slow again, they slow, and you realize that they’re hearing something that I’m not and you realize it was probably one of these Russian 122’s they constantly harassed us with. You know, Cambodia was six miles away, rockets have ranges of eight miles, and they tried always to hit the fuel depot right next to where we lived, or that little air strip. You can’t pick—my eyes never picked—but I knew it was between them and me and I wasn’t hearing it and just about that time the shitter blew up to pieces behind me. 51:03 I think—the concussion landed—I fell flat on my ass and I wasn’t hurt, because the—I was lucky, because the 122 Russian rocket, when it hits and blows, and if that had been a 120 mortar it would have been a different thing. I’ve got slides of it—I turned around and I was amazed that it was just—and they must have had fuel lines that ran underneath it, because that also started on fire. You know, you think that if you spent another frickin' ten seconds in there, fifteen seconds, they’d be picking the shit out of your remains and sent home. You think, “Wow, these little weird things didn’t happen”, and then about that time, the same thing, about the time, about a week later, Phouc Vinh was getting some— and there was a village and every once it would be popping in there, so they sent the infantry in there. 52:04 The South Vietnamese they held up in their area, they were not interested in seeking anything out, and the 1st Cav went in there and we got called, because they started hitting booby traps. There was an old French rubber plantation, old French homes, and so, our squad was sent in there to take care of the booby traps. You’re careful, and we always carried these little half pound blocks of TNT for that, and we don’t use C-4 on that, just these little blocks of TNT and it worked pretty effectively. We spent three days there, and first we brought a bulldozer in, because as we got into this old French rubber plantation that’s 25 �where the infantry started hitting stuff as they went, so they brought in the bulldozer and he took his blade down and we were following that in, until we could get into this meadow. 53:04 Legs started coming up and arms and stuff and it turned out to be a pauper’s grave where they were buried there, so the bulldozer backed up and covered them up and sat down and we marched in ourselves. Yeah, ya had to look, if you’re not looking for it, that’s when you don’t see it and if you’re looking for it you can see the stuff they’re doing. It must have been noon, we had covered a section of this rubber plantation here and we’re in the shade and we’re cooking some food and stuff and behind us, where we just came from, we hear this “bang”. “What the hell was that?” So, we ran—we had a couple of tanks that gave us support and cover so we’re not exposed, ran back there and you could look in there and I heard this moaning and we went in there and my Lieutenant, me and a Kit Carson Scout. 54:03 A Kit Carson Scout is a North Vietnamese soldier, a Vietcong that now works for us. They know a lot about booby traps, and it’s nice to have a Kit Carson Scout with you. We went in there and here’s this old Vietnamese farmer tapping these trees that haven’t been tapped in a while, because of the war. He’s trying to etch out a living and he hit an anti-personnel mine and he was moaning and he was bleeding badly. It had blown off the back of his heel and part of his foot, it had blown off, so the Lieutenant said, “We got to get him out of here, stamp down this stuff”, which is the stupidest thing he ever said. So, we’re stamping down and I hear a “click” and everybody—the Kit Carson Scout started jabbering and he took off. Lieutenant--they got the guy out and they took off. 55:00 They said, “What are you going to do?” I said, “I don’t know”, the first time I started to cry and I started to cry, I couldn’t believe it that this scenario had happened. They called for a medevac and I was 26 �waiting for the medivac before I lifted up my leg. I was going to wait until they had the meds there, right there, because I fully believed I was going to lose my life, or I was certainly going to lose one, or both of my legs, and uh, uh, I cried. Then they were maybe fifty yards away, you know, and the rest of my group, they’re just standing there staring, the Lieutenant’s just standing there staring. The Kit Carson Scout is just staring at me while they’re waiting for me to make a decision, when this is going to happen. You know, I’m twenty and I can’t believe this is going to happen and then, sure enough, I knew that decision time was coming close because I could hear this thump, thump, thump, of the helicopter coming. 56:07 As it got closer I could look up and see that it was the medevac and they came and set down, kept it running, and they’re looking at me. I said to myself, “Okay, take a big breath and I’m going to count down from ten to one and I’m going to do this”. Ten, nine, my heart is just pounding and I’m sweating, and I got to one and I couldn’t do it. “Come on, come on”, they’re not hassling me about it, they’re just waiting. 57:00 I thought, “I’m going to try it again, try it again, and I’ll get down to one and do it”. Your mouth is dry-- and I count down to five and I leap to one side and it didn’t go off. We found it and it was—I wouldn’t have lasted if it had gone off, it was that large. I took a little block of TNT and put it on there and blew it and it left a hole this round and this deep. So, even there, you think everything is under control and it’s not. Then we went into Cambodia, when the U.S. invaded Cambodia, and I think it was early March [May] of 1970. 58:05 Our units, we were ready to go in and I remember that day. I got up early, hit this big area, and there were just a ton of helicopters come in just—and it was like the more helicopters and they slowly started to rise with troops and prior to that too, a lot of new ammunition came in and all that kind of 27 �stuff was starting to get stockpiled. We thought we were going into Cambodia, into their sanctuaries, but we weren’t sure, but we thought so, but as we got—you could look behind the aircraft and you could see this long line, like geese, and they got higher and higher. They got about five, six, thousand feet in the air and started to head toward the coast. Well, we’re not going to Cambodia; we’re heading towards the coast. Then they got above this cloud bank and then you could look out front, and the lead ship started to turn, and we’re going to Cambodia, in their sanctuary. 59:06 Then when we got there we were not the first line in. When we got there a chopper took us in, dropped us off on this little hill and I remember looking and there was like eight body bags with GI’s that had been killed. The bags weren’t dark, they were green, but they were kind of see through and you could tell if it was a black man, or a white man. Being on a hill their body fluids were moving to the end of the bag and as we got off—and I noticed when we got on it looked like there was blood and stuff on the—but you sit down and go, let’s do this. Then as we got off they were piling bodies on. Their radio operator had been killed and they had no radio operator for a squad, so the infantry grabbed me and took me. 00:01 They got this big old thing hanging above there and it’s not a good thing to have there, antenna up there, you know, it just “here I am”, but you do what you’re told and as we went into this twilight under the jungle, in the middle of the day it’s twilight, and I see this firs NVA body and he was lying face down, and I wanted his shoes, his Ho Chi Minh shoes. I went to the body and I grabbed his foot to take his shoes and the lieutenant came up and said, “Don’t touch that body, anything on that body is mine”, and he went again. I came back , didn’t take the shoes, but I flipped him over and he had been shot in the back and he had bled a perfect heart on his chest. 1:01 28 So, I flipped him over and I took that �ammo carrier and put it in my pack and we moved on. It started getting dark and my team—we didn’t stay together and I don’t have to go on patrol and I don’t have to do ambushes, I’m not in the infantry, I’ll be your radio operator. It’s night time now, so I got back with my squad and we found this pretty level area covered by kind of bushes, but it was kind of a clearing and he said that this would be a good place for us to sleep tonight. So, we went in there and there was another dead NVA lying in there. It’s getting dark, everybody gets, “That’s bad luck man, that’s bad luck, we can’t sleep with a dead man, come on man what are we going to do with him, drag him out?’ Other GI’s saying, “What the fuck you doing man? We got shovels, just bury him, bury him here”, so we did, not very deep, but we dug in and covered the guy up. 2:04 Then everybody felt more comfortable going to sleep. I used the guy as a pillow, I know, we different and you got to understand that you change, it’s different, you can’t apply the values, because there aren’t any. Everything you’ve been taught is right is wrong and the thing that’s wrong now is right. It was amazing this cache, the size of garages with tarps on them and we’d rip them open and we got our—I got a SKS still packed in Cosmoline, I got a CKS Chinese semi bolt action, I got shit at home that I got out of that cache, and we’d just clean them out, clean them out, and then we’d withdraw to a perimeter again and you could hear them having trucks turning on trying to get this stuff out. 3:02 I think it was the third day we started to find these holsters for 9mm’s, so we knew we were close to 9mm’s and that was a thing that I’d want. That third day, we’re coming back and there’s this opening, kind of a meadow, and they had—it looked like six nice new Chinese green deuce and a half trucks. We went over there and we just shot the shit out of them, just shot the shit out of them. In a war you can actually be a top vandalism and you never 29 �have to worry about it, and we just shot the shit out of them and then retired and it started getting dark and like I said, we didn’t have to do any perimeter. They picked us up and before they moved us to these three roads that came in and we’re going to set up a perimeter there. 4:03 The Air Force had knocked the shit out of all the buildings in there, so we set up there and it was nice, it was pleasant. I was sitting there one night—I never did get the pistol—and we’re sitting there one night and about three o’clock in the morning this light went “whoof, whoof, whoof” , a guy took a camera shot and about an hour later the same thing and the next day the choppers came in and they started kicking off sandbags and stuff and more ammunition and stuff that we needed, because what that was, was a picture of the land and then an hour later of the same land and then they had analyzed it and they found a large North Vietnamese army unit is moving towards one of the three of us. 5:00 It could be LZ Lee, LZ Betty, or our LZ, because we covered each other with our artillery. But definitely—and they had artillery pieces with them, so they said, “You guys can’t sleep on the ground anymore. Dig in and build yourself a bunker, this is what’s going on “, so we did and there were enough buildings blown up, so we took the wood and stuff and brought bunkers—well, sandbags up to here and put sandbags on and there was room for three of us to fit in there. We were waiting, we knew they were in the area and we’re waiting. Where our unit was, that part of the perimeter, some valleys came in and it wasn’t too far for them to go. We had a lot of wire out, we had fougas, and we had claymores all set up. I’m sitting there and I hear a whistle and “wham” the first round came in from our artillery. 6:05 What they do is, they figure if they’re going to get attacked they’re going to attack here, so they zero their guns in just over us. It makes you feel terrible, because why do I have to be in this 30 �particular section and then it’s just dark and they shut their guns off. So, if we need them and they’re coming through all they have to do is fire and they’ll be right on target. So, the first night I’m nervous, I got the starlight scope, I’m young, and I remember thinking, “Now there’s a stump there between that and—it’s just a stump. Well, I had ten to twelve and the guys were pretty well sleeping in their little areas and I keep turning it on and the starlight scope, it wasn’t the best technology, but you can see shadows and then fog comes in. the fog came in. 7:00 The fog comes in and then I can’t—I can’t—what a perfect night for it and I swear to God that stump was getting closer, and it wasn’t, but your mind starts playing tricks on you. Finally at midnight I woke up the next guy, he went and I crawled in on an air mattress kind of on a hill and it started to rain, it started to pour and pretty soon, being on a hill of course, the back of our little bunker started filling up with water, so your feet’s doing this. There was a Mexican further down and he started cussing in Mexican and I took my flashlight and looked and water was coming through and hitting him and then it hit me, but once you’re wet you’re wet and you go to sleep. I went sound to sleep and I never knew what hit me. It felt like somebody came up and hit me with a ball bat across the head and kind of pushed me out of the bunker, but my arms—I couldn’t get off and I’m tasting a lot of blood. 8:06 Everybody’s hustling to the perimeter and I’m afraid of we get overrun all they’re going to just shoot me in the head and I’m screaming, “Help me, help me”, and this soldier came and everybody’s got to get on that perimeter. He came over and he flashed his light and said, “Oh, God”, and left, which didn’t make feel very good and I figured half my head went, but that wasn’t the case. Head wounds bleed, it doesn’t mean they’re bad, they bleed, and I couldn’t see out of my right eye and I saw sparkles everywhere and just tons of 31 �blood. It was like an ice pick in my head, because it was raining and it was just hitting. They didn’t hit us, they hit—what it was, they hit LZ Brown and the dumbest thing they ever did, because LZ Brown was totally flat and they just fricking slaughtered them suckers. 9:00 They got me and they medevaced me out. Interviewer: What hit you? Was it a mortar? You know, I don’t know if it was a round that came in, all I know is that whole thing collapsed and hit me in the head. I don’t know, I was sound asleep and I don’t have a good idea what that was. I assumed it was, but I don’t know. So, I ended up being medevaced out, but not right away. We had dug down underground and we had a med station. When they took me, and I wasn’t the only one in there, there was like two other guys as well, and they had us on these cots that were about this high and the water was about this high, filling up with rain. The doctor came around and his eyes were like this big and he looked like he had lost it, literal. I looked at him and his eyes were that big and he puts a dobby-do in my arm and tapes it and goes to the next guy it’s raining and now it’s light raining and it’s in the middle of the night. 10:05 God bless these medevacs, god bless them and I hear this “whoom. whoom, whoom,” medevac in the mountains, in the middle of the night, in a rainstorm, come down. Now, they put me and these other two guys on the floor of the chopper and it started to rise and I’m thinking, “Go, go, get it”, because we were vulnerable and if somebody had a B-40 they’d blow us out of there. “Go, go, climb, climb”, and climb, climb, and pretty soon we popped out on top of the cloud bank and it was a beautiful starry night, and we headed towards Vietnam. The first way station was there and they brought us off there and they looked at it. Of course, he had missed my vein, so my arm was all puffed up and they put one in here and 32 �sent me to the hospital there outside of Saigon. 11:00 I think I might have had, maybe a nervous—I don’t know what it was, but I was in there and I still had my boots and stuff on and I was lying in this bed and I had a knife in my boot and it looked like the nursing staff looked like Vietnamese and I took my knife out and the next thing I know, these four gorillas in white come around and he disarms me like I’m a “pussy”. Grabs me and throws me on my stomach, holds me down, rips my pants off, gives me a shot and I’m fighting it, he does it one more time and I was asleep. I woke up and I was in this nut ward and I’m thinking, “This is bizarre”. I was getting ready to be shipped to Japan to the 249th general hospital. 12:00 So, I went to Japan and I got there and they gave me a cot and I looked around and it was different. Nothing was loose, everything was firmly attached and I asked if I could have my shaver and they gave it to me and I went into the bathroom and I thought, “Wow, this is going easy”, I never cut anything and they took the razorblade out. “Okay, I think I know where I’m at”. I came out and initially I could not speak, I tried, but I couldn’t speak, it just wasn’t coming, it was the weirdest thing I ever experienced, I could not speak. But, there was this guy from the 101st Airborne and he had his pajamas on and bloused combat boots and he had this record called Leapy Lee "Little Arrows”, and he would play it, and he would play it, and he’d play it. 13:02 I’m thinking, “I’m going to lose my mind, I’m either going to stuff that up your ass, or that’s not going to play anymore”, so I look it and I broke it and dropped it on the floor. I waited to see what he was going to do. You know, he didn’t come after me, but he started chirping and jumping up and down on his cot and I got up and I was going to hit the fucker in the face and here are these guys again, they grab me and “boom” take me away and we talked. At that time I had gotten my voice back and I said, “I don’t belong 33 �here” and they said, “Well, you’re going back to the states”, “Good, great”, and then the Army doctors came down and they said, “You look like you’re fit for duty” and I said, “No, I’m going back to the states”, and they said, “You go back to the states, you got thirteen months, we’ll re-levy you for another year, or this is what we can do. 14:02 We’ll let you go home for a month and see your family, we’ll let you out five months early, and you can get any unit you want”. Okay, I did that, I went home for a month, fell in love, I went to my doctor to have him take out my tonsils and that got me another month. Then I went back to him and said, “Take out my appendix”, and he said, “I’m not going to do that, your tonsils needed to be taken out and your appendix doesn’t. I’ve done everything I can for you”, so I ended up going back and when I got back I was arrested for being AWOL, because I never got the doc’s the instructions for that extra month, and then they just shopped me out to my old unit. Well, my old unit was back in the field and my old commander—I got back there, but first I was at Tan Son Nhut Airbase waiting for a helicopter ride, and here’s the old supply sergeant. 15:00 I said, “Hey, how you doing? You were supposed to pack my shit up and send it home”, and instead he said, “Wow, we never thought you’d be back”, and I said, “Yeah”, and he said, “Look at some of this stuff “ and the doofus pulls out this ammo carrier that I’d taken off that dead NVA with the perfect heart. He said, “Look at this shit”, and I said, “That’s my shit, you fucker”. I didn’t care about that and I said, “I want my rifles”, and I said, “Where are my rifles?” He said, “Your rifles? Uh, I think the commander took those rifles and gave them to some higher ranking people in Saigon. We never figured you’d be back”. “Boom”, I get up there and I said, “You know, my unit, I picked the 2/27 Charlie Company, that was the deal, that’s why I’m back here. I’m going to be a door 34 �and I’m not going on the ground anymore”, and he said, “Listen, we lost some people, you draw your pack, you draw a rifle and you be on the fricking heli pad tomorrow morning”. 16:02 “You’re going down to a place called LZ ---“, and God I forget what it was, so they took me in there and these guys were digging in, in the side of the hill, they were doing strafing below the hill and working with Bangalore torpedoes, in the bottom of the hill fires had started, so they’re working there was up towards the torpedoes. It was a bad situation, none of those guys liked it, it wasn’t an area I wanted to stay in, and this is not the deal I made. Then just before dark I see this chopper coming in really fast and as he came in I dropped everything. As they were kicking mail and stuff off the one side, I crawled in on the other side. The gunners looked at me and I said, “They don’t give a fuck” and the pilot never said anything to anybody. They went back and they had to stop in Song Be, my old unit, to refuel. So, when they stopped I slid off and went into the perimeter and fell asleep on top of a bunker. 17:03 I had two grenades here and I woke up in the morning and the grenades had rolled off, but there was a big rat curled up and sleeping on me, and these rats, if you left them alone it’s almost like, “Oh, you getting up now?” He got up and walked away. I waited to get the next ride, I kept asking, “Where you going, where you going?” “Saigon,”, “Can I get a ride?” “Yeah, get on”. I went to, I think he’s called the Adjutant General, he represents--he takes care of us. I didn’t go to my commander, I went--I didn’t use the chain of command, I went right to the Adjutant General and I explained, told him the whole story, and he said, “you go back to your unit and I’ll look into this”. “Yeah, right”, so I go back to the unit and of course my commander is irate that I went over his head, absolutely irate and he said, “Draw a pack, draw a rifle, and be on the helipad”. He brought me up to a mountain 35 �called Mui Ba Ra and the NVA had dressed themselves as South Vietnamese. 18:00 There was only one way—it was a communication center up there with one way there, otherwise it was a sheer dropoff and there was--a couple of GI’s were killed and I was one of their replacements and the NVA did not get up there, but there were some casualties, and it was good duty. We went up there and we’re at the top of the mountain and you could see the jets go at eye level and clouds would drift by and there on son Bay underneath there and we could see the Russian 122 rockets coming at night. They had this little tail hit that airstrip and we’re safe up here. It was about two weeks and it was nice. Then “boom” the chopper came in and asked for me and I got on the aircraft and it’s just leveled on this ledge and it just tilted and the helicopter just fell and I almost craped my pants. “Whoosh” right on back there and sat down and I went into my commanders unit. 19:01 He said, “Apparently, I can’t go home until you’re satisfied”, and he said, “What’s going to make you satisfied?” I said, “I had a Russian SKS still packed in Cosmoline that you gave away to some sucking ass in Saigon”, and he tried to intimidate me, he’s the commander. “Just stop it, just fucking stop it”, and he said, “What’s going to make you happy? I said, “That 9mm you got out of Cambodia will make me happy”, and he said, “I’m not going to give you that fucking revolver, I’m not going to do it”, and I said, “Then you ain’t going home are ya? What’s going to make me happy is that 9mm there. You gave away my two rifles; I want your 9mm”. 20:00 Then he got real quiet and real nice, and he said, “Listen, I just want to go home and I don’t want to give you the 9mm, but I’ll tell you what I can do. I’ve got a British 303 that was taken, will you accept that?” We sat there and stared at each other and I said, “Yes”, he gave it to me and he said, “You’re also leaving here and you’re going to 2/27 36 �Charlie Company, Ghost Rider, good luck”. I went there and when I got there—you know, I’ve been in country a long time man and it like a net because these gunners are like real close and when I first got there they looked at me and said, “Do you smoke or drink?” Trick question? Smoke? Flight One, which were all potheads and Flight Two, which were all drinkers. So I went in there and they said, “Listen, you’re going to have to sleep down at the end on this four by eight plywood that’s up off the ground and we’ll get you all settled tomorrow, okay?” 21:04 “Okay”, so I met these guys and we talk and getting to know each other and about two, or two thirty in the morning—I took my boots of, I never wore socks, or underwear, and the boots were real soft and even in the field I’d use them as a pillow. So, I took my boots off and wrapped one of my tee shirts around them and I crawled up on this four by eight piece of plywood. I’m sitting there and I looked up and I see in the rafters, I see rats, I see rats, and I started to go to sleep and I feel something on my toes. I took my flashlight and here are these three rats chewing on my toenails. It freaked me out, it just freaked me out and I hit it and ehh, they screamed and hustled away and they kept coming all night long. I got my insect repellent and I’d wait until they got to my toes and I’d spray them in the eyes, and they’d scream and this went on all night. 22:02 Well, it was an initiation, and this is where they put some marijuana and stuff to keep the rats on that side of the building. The rats were simply coming to their feeding area, is all they were doing. “Very funny guys, very funny”, and they said, “You’re in the first room on the right”. “Okay, alright”, so I walk in there and there’s a bunk bed, but it’s painted white and it’s got these black fists on it and it had some very nasty things about white people on it. I’m thinking, “Who’s my new roommate?” Then I meet him, he comes in and he’s a big guy, bigger than me, he 37 �was a big black guy, and he really never said much. He hated me, because I was white and now he had to live with me. He said, “Listen, I’m sleeping low, you’re sleeping high”, that’s all he said, so I went up there. 23:01 The problem with him was he had this eight track of Marvin Gaye and I can’t stand the song today, “I Heard It on the Grapevine”, and with an eight track back then, you put it in and it just plays, and plays, and plays, and plays. Well then this thing started between us, you know, and every time he got up before I did he put it in and I’d get up and pull it out, and at night before he’d go to bed, he’d put it in, and I’d climb down and pull it out. This went on for about a week—we’ve got to change the dynamic here, I’m sick of this. He left one morning, I pull it out and I took my boot and I smashed it on the cement floor and left, went out to my aircraft. I’m sitting in the gunners well, M-60’s not loaded, sitting in the gunner's well, and I look and here comes this dude around the building and he has found Marvin Gaye. I am the obvious suspect and he is pissed off. 24:00 He stated coming towards me and as he came towards me he pulled a knife out of his boot. I’m thinking, “You dumb mother fucker”, and I put the round of ammunition in my M-60 and I loaded that sucker. I brought that barrel down on his chest and every M-60, the pressure point to firing is different and you get to know you weapon, okay? Some fire right away and some you’ve got to pull back and then they fire, okay? Mine, you had to kind of pull back a little bit, and how I liked it set, and I started squeezing that trigger and he got, probably, from here to that wall away and it was right there—I would have killed him--he would have killed me, the guy’s too powerful, he’d kill me, and I wasn’t going to take a chance, I would have killed him. It was right there and I decided, “I’m going to do this’, and he stops, he looks at me, he knew that I would do this. 25:02 38 He takes the knife �and he puts it back in his boot and he gives me a smile and says, “You gotta sleep sometime”, and walks away. I’m thinking, “You dumb fuck, why didn’t you just leave the Marvin Gaye thing alone. Why didn’t you just leave his fricking Marvin Gaye thing alone?” For the rest of the day I’m always looking behind me and stuff. “Where is this sucker? Am I going to go around the building saying, “Hey pal, how you doing?” But, he’s right I can sleep, you know, he’ll cut my throat in the night. “What do you do? I wish I would have thought of this before. Now what do you do?” I went to my commander and just told him what happened. I said, “I’m scared for my life”, and what they did—nobody wanted to live with this guy, this guy intimidated the door gunners for crying out loud, he intimidated them all. 26:00 This was one nasty mother fucker, okay? I told him what’s going to happen and “boom”, they went and took him out, got his stuff, put him on an aircraft and he was gone. Then I got this room all to myself. I was a new gunner with a room all to himself. I did a little redecorating and painting, and that’s how I started being a door gunner. As the time went by I remember one morning, it was a Sunday morning, that the U.S. Army had heard—and I knew this after the fact, that the NVA had put in a large military unit and where would somebody hide that many men and equipment? The jungle, okay, but this rubber plantation called the “Chup Plantation”, it’s a French rubber plantation, you can’t see it from the top and it’s clear on the bottom. 27:06 The perfect place to bivouac lots of men at high light. So they figured that being—we were in a triangle, we patrol the triangle and that’s where the Ho Chi Minh Trail mouth came in, and that the “Chup” might be the spot. I didn’t know this, because the pilots didn’t say, “Hey, it’s a beautiful Sunday morning, let’s go see if we can find some trouble”, they just didn’t tell me what we were going to do. So, we 39 �lifted off, we went up and headed towards the Cambodian border, which wasn’t unusual. But, then we started gaining altitude, a lot of altitude, five thousand feet, we’re use to five thousand feet, eighty-five knots, which is about a hundred and five miles an hour, cruising. That’s what we did. It might look like that helicopter’s stationery, but we’re moving, and that’s why most of the shots go way behind our tail. Five thousand feet’s pretty safe, small arms fire, forget it. 28:02 Anything bigger, watch out. But, we kept going higher and it got cold. I remember, it got so cold and I was the right side gummer and I looked out, because we took our doors off and stuff, I looked and in the distance I could see this beautiful green area, like God had a yard and it was a manicured, a beautiful shimmering green that Sunday morning. We kept getting higher and I’m thinking, “Why are we going so high? We never go this high, it’s cold”, and we kept climbing as we got towards the “Chup” rubber plantation, kept climbing higher, and higher. I thought, “Well, everything’s pretty safe”, so I dialed into Saigon with my headset, there’s only one radio station in Saigon, so there wasn’t a lot of choice, but it was a good “rock ‘n roll” station and I dial in and it’s Led Zeppelin and “Stairway to Heaven”, so I crank that sucker up and I lean back in my gunner's well and we’re way up in the air. 29:06 Just where that guitar pick starts I hear this “beep”, and I never heard it before, never, “beep”. Well, if I’d have known what was happening, I would have had a seat belt on, and what is was, was that we’d been picked up, we found them and they have an anti-aircraft gun and we’ve been locked on. By the third “beep” they’ll blow you out of the air and you got to be falling, they shut the aircraft off, and all of a sudden it was just—there was no gravity, and that bird slowly went on it’s side, my side, and I floated to the ceiling. I had a 50 caliber; I could have engaged that 51, but I couldn’t get 40 �down to the gun. 30:03 It was an invisible hand, there was no gravity, I was plastered right there just going down towards the ground. Oh yeah, I could see where it was in those trees, oh yeah, because there was these clumps of green going whoosh, whoosh, just missed us. That gun, we’re falling and here’s that gun trying to catch us and I’m thinking, “You know, the ground’s coming up”, and I’m thinking to myself, “Mom, I’m so sorry, so sorry”, and I thought, “Well, you won’t feel a thing, you won’t feel a thing, you won’t feel a thing, and if they slow the aircraft we’re fucked, and if they don’t slow the aircraft we’re fucked”, and it was okay, it was okay. Then an amazing thing happened. As we’re getting closer to the horizon, the tops of those trees looked like God took a lawn mower and went errrr, because they just started splintering everywhere. 31:00 I’m watching and I’m thinking, “Shit”, and eek it stopped, because now they were just shooting the tops of the trees and not at us anymore. The pilots, when they righted the aircraft, I fell hard, I mean--I fell on this piece of steel plate and I was amazed how, when they went like that, how hard I hit, and I fell back like this and that’s the only time it had to happen, because I don’t know what caliber, but it came right through the floor, right between my legs, through the top, and hit a blade. I didn’t even know it until laterthe army-I’ll tell you later, but the blades were going “kerwhack, kerwack”, and I’m thinking, “We’re going to tear the blades, we’re going to”, and I could feel the aircraft starting to slow. Those noises, that M-8, “kerwhack”, those blades were taking stress, and I’m thinking, “They’re going to rip, they’re going to rip”. 32:01 Then I looked down and I’ve never seen so many NVA in my life and they’re all like this, shooting at us. I’m thinking, “Holy shit”, and I looked at the steel plate underneath me and It is moving, but I’m looking at the floor of the aircraft and an amazing thing, it’s like holes 41 �just materialized. They were hitting us all over the place and thought, “Well”, and I started to scream, I got on that 50 and I just started firing , and I’m screaming and I’m firing, and I’m screaming, and I’m not even aiming at anything. It was target rich and I figured I had to hit something, and I’m just a screaming and I’m firing, and I’m screaming and I’m firing and I hear the other gunner doing the same thing, firing, firing, and they spun our aircraft up. A ways away the South Vietnamese were moving up to engage at that time. We set that aircraft down, I got out, got the pilots out, because they can’t get out without your help. Unsnapped his door, unsnapped his harness, and took the steel plate, so he could get out. 33:01 We’re all sitting there and we’re looking and the bird is just shot up. Both pilots were fine, I was fine, the other gunner was fine. Of course, he should have been, because he was facing God, and I was facing down during that time, so I hang on for dear life, or you float out of the aircraft, and that was in the “Stars and Stripes”. A bird came in to pick up our air crew and another bird came in to lift it, because they didn’t dare fly it, and took it back to Phuoc Vinh. I went into my place where I sleep and I’m sitting on my bed and my hands just shaking, just shaking, just shaking, and he came in and he said, “Did you see your gunner's well?” I said, “Why?” He said, “Come out here and take a look at this”, and they had this lead wire that they put up where the bullet came and through where, and there was the hole above my head, and out where it hit the blade, and if I had been anywhere on that gun, it would have killed me instantly. 34:05 The only time I wasn’t was when they righted, because sideways it’s not going to hit the floor, it had to right. I said, “The only time that could have happened without killing me was when we hit hard and I fell back, because after that I was on the gun”, and I think that millisecond righting was good luck, it’s just good 42 �luck, good luck, and that was in the “Stars and Stripes”, in fact. That aircraft shot full of holes, they had a picture of it. We got a different aircraft and it wasn’t that long after that, and we had to bring a black Lieutenant into the mountains to an infantry unit. Interviewer: I’m going to take a break here for a moment. So you were talking about having to take a black Lieutenant someplace? Yes, and you know we did a lot of these types of missions, but before—I want to go back, because we were always told as door gunners, “Guys, if you’re taken prisoner, because you’re gunners, they’re going to fucking shoot your ass”. 35:07 “You know, just like they would a sniper, and you’re not going to make it. Only pilots are taken prisoner”. I had come up with a plan B and the plan B was to put warrant officer pins, I got from one of the pilots, put them in my pocket, and the idea was, if we’re shot down, I can take those pins out and I’m going to snap them on my collar and I will just become an officer, and maybe get by those front line troops that have been waiting so long to get their hands around my throat. But, I also thought, typical army, they’re going to spend this bull shit, “You fight to the death, because you don’t want to be executed”. Ah, that’s a bunch of bull shit, and we’re on patrol one time and we hear this “Fook, fook, mayday, mayday, fook”, and the radio starts to crackle and I’m listening to what’s going on and they directed our ship where it last went down—go over there. 36:03 “Here we go”, and we fuel the aircraft, we change direction, and went as fast as we could, but it took time to get there and when we sat down we could see the aircraft, it had been shot down, and it had been shot up really bad. I think they shot it up after it was on the ground and wiped shit all over it. They just fucked it up real good, and nobody was there. We’re looking around and first you go and make the circle, you want to make the circle, you 43 �don’t want to land, you just want to make this circle. You look, and as the door gunner-you’re right above the trees and I can see everything. I can see everything that moves, man, and anything that fucking moves is going to get a hole in it. You tighten and tighten until you’re comfortable setting down and the pilots were gone, and I looked and there were these two lumps in the field. 37:05 So, I ran over there and sure enough, there was these two gunners and they had their hands, not tied, but wired, behind them and it looked like they were set on their knees and shot in the back of the head, both of them were face down. So, we recovered those bodies and left and after that I always had the pins, because I didn’t want to go like that, but then some nightmares started too, I started having nightmares—“Bang”, they shoot the other gunner, and I feel those footsteps behind me and I wake up, it was just stupid shit like that, just stupid shit. Anyway, I need to take this black Lieutenant and we have to leave in the morning, because the monsoon season is starting. 38:00 The monsoon season—you see a could bank in the distance, it will be there and it’s gone, it’s there and it’s gone, there and gone, and then it’s over you and it rains like hell. Where we were going the monsoon was starting and we had to leave in the morning before the cloud bank came up over the mountains, that’s how we lose air crews, the mountains, it’s not from the enemy, it’s from colliding with shit. Sure enough the fucking guy gets there like a two o’clock in the afternoon and I can already see—this doesn’t feel right, I get this really bad feeling about this whole thing and I was getting pretty superstitious at that point, I’d been there a long time and I was getting superstitious. Our aircraft, which was a good aircraft, 428, was a strong aircraft. We lifted off with this guy, and when we went up--we usually looked for what we call the “Stairway to Heaven”, big lights coming through the clouds and a big one was like God’s 44 �golden and the pilot flew up into it. 39:04 I’m looking over the edge and I could see everything just close and as far as you could see was nothing but white cotton batten, as far as the eye could see. We started in that direction and we probably were about twenty minutes into the flight and I look and, amazing, there was this “Alice in Wonderland” mushroom cap as big as buildings above us and the storm below. Huge, and some of these stems were the size of holes, and big caps, and we were like that small. I’m going-I had my camera and I never took a picture. We’re maneuvering through and I’m looking and I just felt so small, but I was amazed at the beauty of this. He’d go right through a stem and you couldn’t see your hand, and we’d pop out the other side and keep going, it was amazing, and then that forest of mushrooms was behind us. 40:00 “Yeah, hey, that was pretty cool, that’s why I’m here, just to experience that right there”. Another twenty minutes, or so, and I’m looking over the side of the aircraft, they don’t look good, I don’t know where the mountains are, I have no idea how these pilots are going to know where the mountains are, and I’m figuring, “We’ll turn around and come back with this “jerk off” tomorrow and let’s not do anything stupid”. Then my headset starts to crackle and I’m listening, we made contact, and they are sown below us somewhere, but where? “We’ll come back tomorrow”, and the pilots come on and say, “Hang on, we’re going down”. “Going down? Are you out of your fucking mind?” Are you out of your fucking mind?” “I’m along for the ride”. “Mom, beam me out of here will ya?” “You can’t, you’re along--this is it man, you’re totally out of control of what’s going to happen, and considering that you got two pilots that are probably twenty-one years old”. 41:00 So, they started to circle, and we started to circle and I’m watching this this thick pea soup come up and I can’t see my hand ,a down we’re down and can’t see nothin', it’s like pea 45 �soup, and I’m getting like, “We’re going to fucking die, we’re going to fucking die, where are the mountains, where are we?” We’re moving down, we’re moving down, and all of a sudden—what had happened is, the mountain was here and we’re coming down and a wind shear grabbed our blades, and it turned the helicopter, my face down, and just hurled us towards the ground. No gravity—“bang’, I went up to the ceiling again and all I could see is this gray puss hitting me in the face. I’m thinking, “Keep your eyes open, keep your eyes open it won’t hurt, it will be quick, it will be quick”, and I’m waiting for my death. 42:03 Meanwhile, the black guy, he’s just screaming his head off, he’s just screaming and screaming and I remember thinking, “Shut up, just die like a man, just shut up”, and he’s screaming, and I’m waiting, and I’m waiting, and the pilots got back in control and we popped out of that cloud bank, but we were level, and the ground was really close, and “boom” we hit it level and those blades went “vooooo” then ‘whaaaaa, whaaaaa”, and I got out immediately, opened the door, unsnapped his harness, moved the steel plate away, so he could get out. The other gunner does the same and we’re sitting in front of the aircraft, all of us, and one of the pilots has his hands on the nose of the aircraft saying, “Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ”, and he just kept saying this over and over, “Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ”, so I knew it was close. 43:00 then I look and I see this poor black guy, he’s full of barf, barf all over himself, barfed on the other gunner, because the wind blew it, and he gets up. He tries to walk, he can’t walk, he’s so terrorized his legs give out and he falls. Then I see movement in the trees and my heart starts to race. I reach in my pocket for the pins. I had a 50 and I rushed back to get the 50 and it was US troops and they just blended right out of the jungle. Came up and picked up this poor fucker—which was still having a hard time walking. I wish I’d 46 �gotten his name and number, because I’d love to call him today, I would love to call him today and say, ”Hey Jerry”, “Don’t ever call me again, hey”, one of those deals, and they came in and they’d see our aircraft come in and was talking to their Lieutenant, I guess. 44:02 They said, “We’ve got to move you, come with us now or leave”. The pilots got back in the aircraft and we snapped them in and stuff and they brought the aircraft up about this high off the ground and we’re just sitting outside on the skid and the aircraft seemed okay, you know, just floating, floating, floating, set it back down and I hear the command, “We’re leaving”, and they did what they call a “Hammer head”. A “Hammer head”, you’re not supposed to—it’s very hard on the aircraft, but what it is, is they get that blade so it’s really, really, moving and they take the collective and they pull it up, which immediately grabs air and you just fly. “Hang on, hang on”, and I could see what they were going to do and that this was going to be a fun ride. I leaned back in my gunner’s mode and sure enough, we shot off that ground and we just went through this pea soup, I mean, it was a great ride, man, it was a great ride. 45:07 We “boom” popped out of the top and went, maybe, a couple thousand yards up in the air and then the aircraft started to choke, and started to fall. The pilots are, “chi, chi, chi”, and they got it running again it just settled in a little bit and we went home. I would have loved to have known that black guy--today, I’d like to call him. The only other thing, as I was getting close, they moved our units to the coast, from the triangle, and that’s when the US was moving out, so we took over for another helicopter unit that went north to the DMZ, so we took over their area. I was getting short at that time and I, maybe, had two more months left, and I was finally going home. My nerves were shot, and at that time we’re doing a lot of heroin, the gunners were, they’re doing a lot of heroin. 46:03 I remember 47 �coming out of this room and everybody’d take a pee right there, a little two foot size, everybody would pee there and I came out of the room and it’s like—I passed out, I black, face down in the stuff. I don’t know how long I was there, it couldn’t have been too long--somebody would have found me. I woke up, took a shower, and we had these big container barrels that would heat up, the sun would heat up in the morning and during the day. I washed up, and I had never blacked out before, and I didn’t worry about it too much—two months to go, two months to go, and then one day we had to go—they took out bird 428, and said, “You got to go a place called Dalat. Go up there”, and I didn’t’ know why we were going to Dalat, the pilots didn’t let us know we were going Dalat, it was up in the mountains and the only way to get there was through, what we called the Suk Ve [sp?] pass. 47:00 They said, “This is the only way we can get up through here, so stay on your toes, we’re leaving”, so we left and we took off and we started to gain some altitude and I’m looking in front of the bird, and sure enough it kind of opened up and that must be the pass, and it was. We went up and they went “whoof”, and we went up, and we were going and you could look down and way down there you could see a little blue ribbon, which was a river. We came past this sheer mountain, it’s like God took a saw and cut this mountain sheer and it was black. This beautiful black, so close, and of course, there’s a lot of turbulence that comes up next to that, and it seemed like we’re from here to that wall away, the blades, like I could almost—it was so massive and we were so high, like I could almost touch it. 48:00 I’m thinking to myself and the aircraft is moving back and forth, and I’m thinking, “Get the fuck away from the side of the mountain dudes, you don’t have to fly this—we got plenty of sky”, and I’m thinking this to myself. I’m sitting back and it’s like everything went black, not right away, I seen 48 �these balls and then everything went black. I fell forward and I went outside the aircraft, and I went into the gun and the trigger caught me underneath my chin and as soon as I broke that barrier, that high, it was cold and the wind was great and like when I hit, “bang” my arms went around, but I was awake and I hung on, or it would have been a long way down when you stop to think about it. I’m hanging on for dear life, communication snapped, I’m screaming, and the pilots can’t hear me, they’re just-- back of their heads, just bouncing and they don’t hear me. 49:06 The other gunner’s on the other side of that turbine and he don’t hear me. I’m screaming and screaming, I’m looking down and my legs are flying in the air, it’s a hundred and five miles an hour and I’m hanging on for dear life and I’m looking and it’s so far down. About that time I see the cotter pin that holds the gun in its mount, doing this, coming out and all I can think is “This goes and me and the gun are going to watch the bottom of that aircraft get smaller and smaller, and smaller. “What will they think happened? “He went nuts, took the gun and killed himself”. That wasn’t the truth, and they would never really know the truth, I’m hanging on and the typical barrel there’s a piece of steel for a firing pin, and my boot was able to get on that and I grabbed and I was able to swing back in. I put the seat belt on right away. It’s cold up there and I’m sweating and I’m just shaking, just shaking, and then we finally got to Dalat. 50:07 It was beautiful, it’s like a university town, we couldn’t believe it. We came up over the trees and I’m looking at all these red brick buildings and these ponds, and greens, and sidewalks, and it’s like, “Is this the twilight zone?” It’s totally unscratched by the war, it’s a beautiful university town, Dalat, and it was gorgeous. They set down and they said, “We’re going to have a good time tonight boys”, and I said, “I’m not interested”, and I told them what happened and they laughed 49 �about it. I said, “Okay, do what you want to do, I’m staying here with the bird”, and they said, “Okay, stay with the bird”. I slept on the floor of the bird and it’s not a comfortable sleep. The floor of the bird has all of these steel nipples and they’re not comfortable to sleep on and neither is that chair, or that—I slept there that night and then they came back. They were treated very well and we lifted off. 51:00 We went back through the Suk Ve pass, but this time I kept my seatbelt on and I was very scared that was going to happen again and if it does I’m not going to be so lucky, I will not be so lucky. As soon as I got back to the unit, we set the bird down, my job as the right side gunner was to take the two M-60 machine guns, break them down, clean them up, and oil them for the next day. The crew chief—and I had to keep the glass underneath the pilots feet clean too, so they could see how close the ground was when we’re landing. That was really all I had to do. Charlie—or the crew chief, each have to take oil samples from underneath to see if there’s fine metal shavings, because they don’t want the transmission to seize up , and go over certain safety thing on the aircraft every time. So, my job was pretty easy, taking the M-60’s, breaking them down, and putting them back together, and get ready for the next day. I went to the doctor, Cooper. 52:00 Well, Cooper and I were good friends, and we smoked a lot of pot together. He made a bowl out of surgical equipment, okay, and when they moved us to the coast we were part of the Korean White Horse Division at that time, and they were going a hundred and fifty. They treated us like we were special. For the first time the Koreans had helicopters to get their unit out. Helicopters would just bring them in, and they were a good troop. I went to Coop and I said, “This is what’s happened. Two months and I’m out of here and if this happens again I won’t be so lucky. My nerves are shot, I’ve done my part”. He said, “You know what, I think you got 50 �mono”, and I said, “I do, I do”, and he said, “I’m going to take you off flight status”. We all contributed a couple bucks each, three hundred bucks total, and we rented out own little whore house in a town called Ninh Hoa. 53:00 Well “doc’ had to go there almost every day to check the girls and he put me in the back of his—the same car that you see on “MASH”, the ambulance, the same type of car, he put me in the back, and then we’d go through these Korean checkpoints. Then I’d come up in the front and we’d be smoking marijuana all the way down to the Ninh Hoa whore house. They let us in, closed the gate, and it had tall walls, and barbed wire all the way around the compound. The house was in there, and we’d go in there and I’d always enjoy being with this French Vietnamese, very pretty, and I always just took her and it was five bucks, and I thought the price was pretty reasonable. We’d go there together and, basically, what I did—but, even as a door gunner--here I was, ten months I was a door gunner, I think we were unique in a the respect that our commander allowed women into us. Cooks didn’t get these privileges, mechanics didn’t get these privileges, and nobody did, but gunners and pilots. 54:04 That was four pilots, but there was never more than four pilots and four gunners and four pilots, at any point, not flying. One was on standby in case we needed him, the other one was down and he didn’t have to fly, so you always had those two birds down. You had four gunners, we’d play cards, we had girls down there and it was okay. There were a lot of pilots, they were married and they had wanted nothing to do with it. There were others, “I’m not going to do that, I’m married”, and I was one that said, “I’m good with this”, so that was kind of a special thing. So, anyway, I started going there with him all the time and things started to disappear. I had some stuff stolen and you don’t want to do that with gunners, you just don’t want to do that. I remember, and it was 51 �a black guy, and we would smoke it and we would snort it, but we would never use needles. 55:01 He was using needles and I remember—we’d be sitting in the group and what was his name? I don’t remember, but he would literally be sitting there, and he’d be drooling on himself and he pissed his pants and we’d say, “Jesus come on”, like we’re better than that, right, okay? You’re no better than that, he’s just hard core. What he was doing, he was stealing from the gunners to feed his habit. It wasn’t hard to find, the stuff, and they found out about it and he barricaded himself in a room and he wouldn’t come out. There were gunners that would have certainly killed him and they went up to the door all the time and say, “Jerry, Jerry, come on out, we want to talk to you, come on out man”, and harass this man. Three days he didn’t come out, four days he didn’t come out, and I passed his door one time and I could hear inside, him moaning, like he’s in a lot of pain. 56:00 Something had to—the dynamic had to change and so, unbeknown to any of the guys that I live with, I went up on the hill there and talked to the doctor. I said, “Coop, I don’t know what’s going on, but he’s moaning, and something is going on, and if he goes out, these guys are going to kill him, or they’re going to hurt him so bad, you know, they’re pissed. Do something”. So, he came down with a couple officers and pilots and knocked on the door and the guy let him in and they took up to the med station up where his little areas there was. I know, because I was watching some of those gunners and they were just staring at him as he walked by. “See you later”, and that type of stuff, and later—they wouldn’t let him come back down, they took him, and they had these houses on the coast for drug addicts and they took him down there to get him cleaned up before he goes home. 57:03 Coop talked to me later and said, “Thanks a lot for that Les, do you know what I had to do?” “No”, “Well the man was impacted. 52 �He hadn’t taken a crap in so long, he became impacted and now he couldn’t, and he could have died”, and I said, “What did you do?” He said, “I had to take a glove and I had to dig it out”. That’s our Coop. Interviewer: Were the men of the unit hostile toward him, because he sort of crossed a line? He crossed the line and it wasn’t used to be that way, but once you find a thief among you, especially with these guys, they’re a different breed of cat, these gunners are, a different breed of cat. Ken Hoff was my crew chief, the other gunner on the left side and a consummate worrier. 58:01 Every mission before we would leave, he would throw a duffle bag on the floor of the aircraft that had a couple revolvers in it, had some pin flares and it had a radio, had food, it had ammunition, it had bandages, he was a consummate worrier. He also loved killing, and he was the best there was. He had balls so big— they’d give you this stuff that I would just not do. We had a new, what we call “Charlie pop”, new, not the aircraft commander, but they break these new guys coming in and that was the right seat. You know, Ken comes around and he crawls on the outside of the aircraft and we’re flying a thousand feet in the air and there’s these things to get up on there and he crawls up, he’s underneath the blade and he crawls and he looks down at the “Charlie pop” and smiles, and crawls back. I wouldn’t dare do that, I wouldn’t dare do that. 59:00 But Ken, even when we get—I’ll give you an example--there was a French rubber plantation and this is before we went to the coast, and after Cambodia we do what they call “purple teams”, and that was a Cobra and then us, we had to pick up any survivors, and then the low bird. Low bird was a little two man aircraft, a gunner, and our job was to make sure he recovered them, or engage if the situation was right, but that 53 �guy up there’s going to cover you. We’re on a typical patrol and we go and it’s inside Cambodia, and here’s this French compound. As we come over, I’m looking and I don’t see anything different and I look up and I see it. At the second level of this French veranda there was this machine gun there and we’re heading right toward it. 60:00 I love these guys—this Cobra pilot seen it and it was just like out of Hollywood, two missiles and it just exploded and blew those guys through those big doors, just blew them through. Then all shit started to go. There were generally green troops and it was chaos, it was where I got my first air medal, actually. We were shooting, it was pretty target rich, and there was this one NVA soldier, had his pack and his rifle, and we came around and I seen him and I was going to come and the low bird got in front of me, so I didn’t fire. I’m watching this and we’re kind of—the low birds here and we’re just kind of doing this and the Cobra’s doing his thing, and it must have been a kid, he throws his rifle down and runs, he throws pack down and he’s running and he keeps looking at the low bird and the gunner is shooting behind him and just terrorizing him. He’s running and his eyes are about this big and he runs to this big tree and he does the old squirrel thing. 1:02 He’s trying to keep the tree between him and that guy. I’m watching this and I’m thinking to myself, “Just end this, you don’t need to do this”, you know, they’re fucking with him, they’re going around, they’re just laughing and having a good time. “Just stop this stuff”, and he finally got to the top of the tree and it’s “rat-tat, rat-tat”-- down. No sooner did he do that and here comes a moped with another one on it taking off out of there, and the low bird gets behind him and shoots and there’s a right degree turn in the road, and he doesn’t want to slow up, can’t slow up, he’s not going to make that turn. Just before the turn they brought that machine gun up and hit him, and again, just like 54 �Hollywood that moped went end over end and into a field. 2:01 We go back and we’re going around, the low bird, going around this section of woods and there was this grass hut. I didn’t know it was there yet, I did in a few minutes, but we’re following the low bird, too low, but we’re fooling them, and the low bird, and all of a sudden the low bird blows up and fire is just—he got hit by something and we’re coming around, and I didn’t know what he got hit by, but he got hit by, inside this little grass hut thing they had a machine gun set up. So, when the low bird came around they just blasted them. Now, we’re coming behind that and the same way, on my side—I wouldn’t have noticed that, we would have gone there and we would have got blasted. Just, I still didn’t, my mind--I still didn’t know what was happening and all of a sudden this grass hut just blows to pieces and we fly through this mud and straw. That boy up there seen it, he seen everything, and he also seen us coming around and that would have ended my life there. 3:06 They would have caught me with my pants down and I would never have known until it was too late. But, that boy up there saved my life and saved our lives. The low craft hit, went up and landed in a field and we flew right behind it and set down. We ran and I grabbed this guy and he screams and the other guy grabbed and said, “We gotta get outa here man, we gotta get outa here, we can’t be on the ground like this”, so we just grab him and he’s screaming and we put him on the floor of the aircraft, and the other guy, instead of coming with us, he crawls on this missile pod on the Cobra and hangs on. “Let’s go”, and so, we’re lifting off and there’s this guy hanging on for dear life on this missile pod. This guy—what happened was, as soon as soon as we got him back—we helped him, we cut his nomex, because he had to wear a nomex and I noticed on his sleeves, it was like somebody had taken a white cloth, on both hands. 4:08 55 What it �was, was inside the nomex the skin had cooked and it was all skin that just peeled down and it looked like that. I assume that when we grabbed him by the leg, probably the same thing had happened. I don’t know what his back and stuff looked like, I doubt whether he survived those kinds of burns. The other guy wasn’t hurt nearly as bad, because he was hanging onto this rocket pod and we went back. That was it, the bird was down and it was just like Hollywood, but it was the real thing. Interviewer: Is it a very strange experience to go from being in sort of the relative comforts of home, you get up in the morning, you’re on a base with a regular schedule and then you can be, suddenly in a situation where all of this stuff is blowing up around you? 5:03 You know, you get—war is something you love, war is something you hate, war is something that scares the fucking shit out of you, but at the same time it gives you adrenalin. It’s a hard thing to say, it’s a love hate relationship, because you’re playing the ultimate game, man hunting another man, it’s the ultimate game and if you lose, you lose your life, and all the emotions that pair with that are involved. When I first came home it was weird. I’d come home, my folks picked me up at the airport in Kent County and I’d been gone a long time, and my family came and picked me up and took me home. I remember sitting in the car and seeing the buildings go by, but you’re not here, you’re there, if that makes any sense. 6:02 I moved in with my parents temporarily and then had some of the dreams. You know, your hands are wired behind you and Ken Hoff, he’d be on his knees over there and I’d be on my knees over here and we’d be waiting and you could see somebody behind him, all of a sudden in front of his forehead, and “pow”, he’d go down and I’d feel that same guy behind me and then I’d wake up, 56 �and my dad would wake me up, he’d come in and say, “Les, Les, wake up, wake up”, and the only other—you have dreams and the dream is---here I am in my underwear, in my bed, upstairs in this old farm house, and I know it’s hallucinations, but I look towards the floor and I see the tops of trees flying by. I’m thinking there’s a machine gun, a M-60, on my mattress, and I’m thinking to myself, “This is hallucinating, there is no M-60 on your fricking mattress and those are not trees”. 7:04 It’s so real and I’d get up on the gun and start shooting and the next thing I know my dad’s grabbing me, “Les, Les, wake up, wake up”, so I had to get out of there, so I went and got myself a place, and I haven’t been home since, and that’s my story. Interviewer: I would like to, if I can, to go back and follow up on a few more dimensions of this. When you were serving as a door gunner, what kind of physical facilities did you have? I mean, you had-- there was—the door gunners slept together and you divided into individual groups and so forth. What else was on the base? You know, you had your chow area, for instance, my job as a door gunner---I was up at, probably, five o’clock and I’d go out, bring the guns, go out to the aircraft, snap them on and wait there for what we called the ammo chief. 8:04 The ammo chief, he would come along, stop ask, “What do you need?” Well, I need so many rounds of this, some smokes on this, you tell him what you need and “bang” you got it. If we need smokes they get it and everything is set and ready to go. I wait, and it starts getting light and the pilots come and they get in the aircraft, you untie the blade. You’ve got to tie the blades down, and where you park these aircraft is like two walls maybe eight feet high, just straight, open at both ends and you put the aircraft in there. We bed it down there and 57 �then tie down with a snap on the blades, so the wind can’t damage it. You wait for the pilots to come on out and they get in and we just stand on the skid outside and they bring it up, check the dial, maybe bring it up and hover about so, hover back and forth, and side to side, then they set it down and we go get breakfast. 9:02 We’d go down to the chow house and the eggs, it’s always the dehydrated eggs , cold toast, greasy bacon, it tastes wonderful, coffee-- good deal, and then we go back and start up and whatever mission we’re on, we back that aircraft up like a car and then you go through what they call “transition” and there’s as you cut through the wind, there’s a shaking as it goes where it has to go and they call it “transition”. I remember, I had a little bag of marijuana, just really light and it was –because I’d smoke a lot in the area and the smoke’s gone, “pfffff”, who cares, and it relaxed me and it never interfered, it just relaxed me and I wouldn’t get so hyper. We went through “transition” and the next thing I know that little bag of marijuana floats up like this and it went through and dropped between the two pilots. 10:08 They picked it up and said, “This yours?” “Thank you sir”, and you know, a lot of the pilots smoked, a lot of them, they were kids. We looked up to these guys, because our lives were in their hands and they would say their lives were in our hands , so you did, you became very close, because you’re going to live, or die together period. We’re all in this thing together, and we’re not going anywhere. Prior to that, also, a new dynamic started to change the situation in Vietnam and that was probably four months before I was going to go. They introduced, I think it was, a Chinese shoulder fired rocket that would be a little bit heat seeking, and they’d fire it after the chopper went by, on your big turbine. 11:01 The unit that we took their place here was moved up there and they were just getting slaughtered. They were losing aircraft, so 58 �they were starting to strip our units to take their places, you know. Every day you wonder where you’re going to go. You talk to each other and they say, “428 is going north”, that’s our bird, “You’re going north”, “I don’t want to go north, I’ll stick—“, and you see what birds have to go there and take their place and do the job, get troops in, get ammo in, whatever it was. That really started to wear on me, because everything was seeming to come that I wasn’t ever going to get home. I was lucky falling out of the aircraft, very lucky, I was lucky in these other things, very lucky, and now this shoulder rocket, I could just taste fate, and so, Cooper did me a real favor. 12:00 I finally went on a R&R and when I came back it was time to go home. Interviewer: Where did you go on the R&R? Bangkok, Thailand, a wonderful place--me and Jimmy Parker, the youngest door gunner in the 1st Cav, he was like seventeen; lied—and he never had any luck. His dad was killed early, his mother was murdered by his step father, and his step father almost beat him to death, so his “granny” raised him. Jimmy and I were good friends, but Jimmy had become a heroin addict. I had tickets to Australia and all that was left was Bangkok, so I gave up the ticket to Australia and I went to Bangkok with Jimmy. We get into our hotel, and it’s just like a nice hotel here, and we check into our rooms, and I wasn’t in my room three minutes and there was a knock on the door and the hotel manager comes in with six girls and says, “You pick, they’ll take good care of you, you pick”. 13:00 “No, we’re going down to the “happy, happy””, because the troops said to go down to the “Happy, Happy” there’s girls down there. They went out and then “knock, knock, knock”, the same thing, so we rented a taxi for the week and he was always on call. He took us down to the “Happy, Happy” and we go in there and behind us there’s a couple GI’s who met 59 �their wives there, and that’s very cool you know. We’re sitting at the big bar and I’m looking through a mirror and I can see into this next room and there were some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen and they had little numbers, and I’m wondering what’s going on, so I called the taxi cab driver and said, “I want one that likes to smoke pot “, and he tells the bartender. So, instead of being discreet they get on this loud microphone and call, “Number 50”. 14:06 I turn around and look and these women are just staring at me. I feel like saying, “What, your husband is in the motor pool in Saigon, give me a break, leave me alone”. So, she comes out and she speaks fairly good English, we got talking and she shows me her medical card and she says, “It’s twenty-five dollars first day and fifteen dollars every day. I’ll take good care of you and show you a good time”, so we agreed. Then we get back to the hotel later and, you know, she’s about this high and I’m—Mutt and Jeff, and I’m checking in there and I feel like these daggers are pointing at my back and I turn around and here’s these same two couples sitting there in the lobby staring at me. I think, “Come on, give me a break”, you know, “Come on, what do you think I’m going to do, go and meet my mother in Hawaii? Come on, leave me alone, just leave me alone, and don’t try to guilt me on this, okay?” 15:02 She did, she did her job, it was wonderful, the best five days ever, and she actually had me thinking she cared, but of course they don’t, but that’s what a professional she was, it was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, reprieve. In fact, I ran out of money after three days. I got into a poker game before I went to Saigon and got skinned out of about three hundred bucks, so I was low on cash when I got there, so she picked up the tab. Then I thought, “This woman, I’m in love”, and then the aircraft is waiting to go back to Vietnam and I’m at the window and I’m waving to her. We wait there for a while and I 60 �look again and she’s hustling a couple other guys just getting off the plane, and I said, “Good job, you gave me the best time of my life and you actually made me feel like I was special and that’s just what you should have done. You loved me to pieces, you took care of me, God bless you, it’s time to go”. 16:02 When I got back and in two days I was used to flying, I was a flyboy, and then it was time to go home and say goodbye, and it was one of the hardest things I ever did, was to say goodbye to those guys, it was. A low bird came in and picked me up and I didn’t want to leave. At that moment if somebody had said, “Do you want to extend your tour?” I probably would have done it, that was my life, and that was my home. Home was a long time ago, this was my family and, “I’m going to miss this”, you don’t think so but, “I’m going to miss this”, you could also die, but we were family, man and you could see that leaving, and I seen that with other guys that left, that it was a hard choice. The low bird picked me up and I said, “Goodbye”, and they flew around again everybody’s waving and saying, “Goodbye, good luck”, and left. 17:06 Before we left though, there was another group that came in and wanted to know, since I was going home, Jimmy Parker was going home, Louis P. Dudas from Detroit was going home too, all three of us, if we were interested in being door gunners out of Bangkok, into Laos for a hundred bucks a day. It sounded pretty good for a hundred bucks a day. I’d been doing this in the triangle for three hundred and sixty five bucks a month. A hundred bucks a day, that’s three grand a month, you know, if I could last a year and what’s Laos compared to the fricking Ho Chi Minh, NVA army? If I could do a year, there’s, thirty six thousand dollars, and I can go home. We talked about it and so when we got back, ya, I went and got my passport, Louis P. Dudas went and got his and Jimmy Parker got his. 18:02 We got all set to go back and Jimmy Parker was 61 �killed in Galena, Illinois. You know, where a bus has to stop at a railroad track? He wasn’t even driving and they pull in this pickup truck and they couldn’t see and they came—went across and got hit by a freight train and both of them were killed instantly. Me, I bought a motorcycle and trying to elude the police, I hit a pole and ended up going out into a field. They didn’t know where I went, they went to the low part and came out and I was gone. I thought I was going to die out there and the wheat and stuff was this high and I could taste the blood. Lots of blood in my mouth, lots of blood, and I’m thinking, “You stupid fuck, you cracked your ribs and they punctured your lungs, you’re going to drown in your own blood, real good Les, real good, you come home and this is what happens, real good, real good”. 19:01 So, I laid back, I lay down, there was nothing you could do, it’s two thirty in the morning. I could see through the grass this barn and house over there with a mercury light that was lit. Lots of blood, I was coughing up a lot of blood and my arm hurt every time I’d move it, and that leg was really hurting, every time I moved it, so I laid back and waited. I waited, and waited, five minutes goes by and I’m thinking, “I should be dead by now, maybe I’m not”. So, I had one good arm and one good leg and I kicked my way to this farm house, the only farm house that didn’t have a phone, and banged my helmet on the door. Thank God they came and takes off and almost rode me over in the driveway to get an ambulance called and the ambulance came and picked me up. The bike was gone and my helmet had a gouge on it and thank God I had a helmet on, or I would have killed me instantly, and I ended up in the hospital for a while. 20:01 I cracked my spine, I almost lost a kidney, some cracked ribs, no broken ribs, I was just fucking screwed up, and that’s where I met my first wife, she was a nurse. 62 �Interviewer: That kind of put a finish to the plan to go off to Laos. It did, because I didn’t have medical insurance and what I did have left, I had to use to pay on my medical bills, I was broke. Jimmy Parker was dead and Louis P. Dudas ended up going to the UP, and to this day doesn’t talk to anybody. I tried to reach him, he is married, my second wife tried to contact him and finally found him, you know, and she talked to his wife. She says, “He won’t talk about it either, he doesn’t want to talk to anybody, doesn’t want to see anybody, he just wants to be left alone”. “Okay, so be it, no big deal”. I don’t think he did enough to go be a hermit somewhere, not like he survived from a death camp, you know, you can’t deal with things. 21:02 Interviewer: Well, it’s a pretty intense experience, doing what you guys did and It’s got to play out in different ways in how they deal with it. It does, you know, I can’t seem to attach to anybody as far as normal feelings, I just don’t. I’ve been married twice and divorced twice, I tend to self-medicate, I used to have a quick temper and I don’t anymore, not much anyway. Sometimes I talk to my brother and thinking, “Jeez, what would I be like if I’d never gone in the service?” I grew up in Hudsonville and went to church every day, or Sundays twice, graduated from a good high school, had a job at Spoelstra Pool Company, and I probably would have married somebody from my high school. 22:01 I’d probably work for John Spoelstra, I probably—I never drank; I never was affiliated with any kind of drugs, or anything all through high school. I probably would have been a totally different person. I probably would have bought my little house in Wyoming, Spoelstra Pool Company, cement working with good pay, I don’t know who my wife would have been, she would probably work too, raising kids, whoever they might be, and yeah, it would have been different. 63 �Now, I don’t go to church, I don’t like being in church, because it gives me the creeps and I don’t know why. Interviewer: Well, it does make for a remarkable story, I’ll tell you that. You know, my good friend Mike says that it’s unique and I don’t know if it’s so unique as me putting myself in situations that should never have happened, you know, but then surviving it too. 23:01 A day doesn’t go by that I don’t think about it and I am truly sick of that, I truly am. I’m sick of listening to music; I’m listening to music and them memories come flashing back, you know, I’m, sick of it. I’m sick of thinking about it before I go to bed and when I get up, during the day for no reason, and this has been going on for a long time. It’s like my uncle Chet said, he’s passed away, but he lost his whole—he was in the army in WWII fighting the Germans, and his whole unit was wiped out by an 88 mm flak gun. He had dysentery, so he wasn’t there at the time. I talked to him and he said, “You know what Les, to this day, I can hear what a tank with that 88mm flak gun sounds like when they put it into gear”. 24:04 You know what a riding lawn mower with a stick sounds like, only much shriller? He said, “I remember that like yesterday yet and I always will, the fear of the sound of it”. You know, anything with high impact, like I tell my brother Lee, if you were in an accident and five bad automobile crashes, guess what, every time you get in a car you’re going to think about that stuff. Every time you hear a horn, or the screeching of a tire, you’re going to think about that stuff and this is really no different. My brother Lee, he had a freak accident when he was forty one at the Gus Macker, a tree branch—a storm came and it crushed his back and I said, “You don’t think about that every day?” Because it’s high impact, and when its high impact it seats itself in the sub-conscious and it doesn’t go away, it doesn’t 64 �go away. That’s fine, I’m proud of my duty and I’d do it again. I met some really great guys. 25:01 I had some very interesting experiences that I survived--stuff that I’d never have had if I had grown up and lived in Hudsonville and worked for John Spoolstra. Interviewer: Well, thank you very much for coming in and telling your story. Thanks for taking the time. 65 �66 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dykema, Leslie (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dykema, Leslie Description An account of the resource Les Dykema was born in 1949 and few up in Hudsonville, Michigan. He tried college, but did not do well in his first year and in 1968 went ahead and enlisted in the Army and get some choice of assignment rather than wait to be drafted. In basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, he found that he did not much like the Army, and got into some trouble, but made it through and went on to Fort Gordon, Georgia, for military police training. Despite a few more run-ins with authority, he completed the training and spent several months there working at a recreation area on the base before going to Vietnam in 1969. He was assigned to an MP unit, and soon got into trouble with his sergeant and captain, and was eventually reassigned to a combat engineer unit in the field. He worked with a demolition squad for some time, including the period of the Cambodian incursion in 1970, before being wounded and sent to Japan to recuperate. He agreed to extend his Vietnam tour in exchange for a month at home and Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-02-03 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DykemaL1011V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19c763a6f51b3df254bd24cbd18baac6.mp4 4f48f83188519bf278d63246f48048d8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/16aeb2e7bc1a7204e4e995821222b50b.pdf a7306ad654c28352889adb5cf0197afe PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Iraq War, 2003Interviewee name: Eric James Dykgraaf Length of Interview: 58 minutes Pre-Enlistment (00:30) • Childhood (00:35) o Eric James Dykgraaf served in the U.S. Navy as an E-5 and his station was in San Diego, California. (01:07) o He backs up and mentions that he was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (01:21) • Education (01:26) o Graduated from Caledonia High and went onto attend Grand Rapids Community College before joining the Navy. (01:33) Enlistment/Training (01:39) • Background (01:40) o Dykgraaf joined the Navy on May 25th, 2000. (01:43) • Why he joined (01:46) o He joined with the prospects of going on after his military experience to join the FBI or do something criminal justice related. (02:02) Another reason for him was that he was influenced by a friend who was already serving in the armed forces. (02:30) • Living conditions (02:40) o In his first couple of weeks doing boot camp he mentions what it entailed from learning how to march, performing different maneuvers, to mastering the rules and regulations expected of a military man. (03:31) Mentions that he was in boot camp for 3 months. (03:37) • Where he went and what company he was with (03:58) �o Dykgraaf mentions that after boot camp he went to Pensacola, Florida where he attended air crew school. (03:58) Spent a month there learning about the fundamentals of how to escape from a submerged aircraft. (04:18) o After that he took a course in search and rescue for a month. (04:29) Was an Aviation System Warfare field operator whose job it was to hunt subs. In a nutshell, it was to identify submarines. (05:04) o Following this training, Dykgraaf and a bunch of guys went on to do AS-10 training where they learned the functions of a helicopter operator. (05:27) This period in his training was a chance for him to refine what he had already learned. (06:03) o October 2001, Dykgraaf joined the fleet. (06:15) In joining, he mentions that he kept an open mind. (06:23) Mentions that he spent 5 years in the Navy. (06:36) Active Duty (06:47) • Background (07:15) o Starting May 23rd, 2002 he started his last deployment lasting 5-months starting at Anchorage, Alaska. (07:19) During this time he describes the foreign food he had and their tastes. (07:58) o Mentioned that in his most recent deployment he went started in San Diego, and went to Anchorage, Hawaii, Malaysia, the Straits of Malacca, Perth, Australia and back home again. (08:52) • The Persian Gulf War/Operation Iraqi Freedom (10:05) o Gives a general rundown of the places he was deployed and the length of time that he was deployed in and around the Gulf and the greater Indian Ocean during his 1st deployment. (10:11) o Goes on to mention that when they would port in Hawaii, Japan, Hawaii, Malaysia, Perth, or Bahrain they would practice aviation exercises or unwind from being at sea for long periods of time. (11:57) Also, mentions that the longest time they spent at sea was 110 days. (12:18) o Spent Christmas 2001/2002 in Perth Australia on his first deployment. (12:50) o For certain military skills he acquired he had to keep training so he wouldn’t grow rusty. (13:23) Also had to make sure that they had enough equipment. (13:59) �o For many of his deployments he and his unit were stationed in and around Kuwait training. (14:41) Could not mention what he did there because it was strictly a military secret. (14:47) o Living conditions (15:02) ƒ While stationed in Bahrain he went to the market place and buy what souvenirs he wanted. As an American soldier there, he often wondered what the attitude of the local Iraqis was towards the Americans being there. (15:28) ƒ Further mentions that they worked with a local interpreter who would help them wheel and deal the inflated prices that venders and taxi cab drivers charged for their American visitors. (16:38) ƒ Dykgraaf mentions that he kept up with his family on a regular basis by buying a phone card and using a pay phone or his cell phone to call his family on the various deployments he was on. (17:02) ƒ Goes on to mention that it was easy to lose track of time in the Middle East because of the change in time zones. (19:05) After the Service (19:52) o Mentions that a day before he came to his oral interview that he was discharged but that he has 3 years of inactive duty with the National Reserves remaining. (19:57) o Goes on to mention that his experience over there has opened his eyes to how he sees the world. Now he takes things more seriously and lives every day to the fullest. (20:09) Just being in the military he said has affected his perceptions and supports it 110% despite the pros and cons that come with it. (23:25) o To a younger generation he encourages them to take life more seriously and to have fun with whatever they do. (24:35) • Q & A Time (25:07) o During this time he mentions that he flew with Black Hawks. (25:27) o Mentions that he had 11 different jobs while in the service. One day he could be shooting a 50-caliber machine gun in the desert, and another listening to subs to stay up-to-date with his military skills. (26:11) �o Dykgraaf discusses what vertical replenishment entailed and tells some interesting stories regarding it. (26:58) ƒ Entails one incident where one guy lost a $50,000 missile of ammo. (31:13) o Also mentions that with his involvement with various members of the Army, Army Rangers, Navy, Marines, Navy Seals, and the Israeli Air Force that he had a lot of respect for them. (32:04) • ƒ Mentions that on his 1st deployment he was aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln. (33:32) ƒ On his 2nd deployment, he was abroad the John C. Status. (33:46) Also mentions other ships he was aboard but does not distinguish which one he was aboard on which deployment. For instance he was aboard the [Nemis,] (33:48), the Reagan (33:51), the Lake Chaplain (33:58), and the Shiloh (33:59) Living conditions (34:38) o During his free time, Dykgraaf spent his time playing Xbox and Playstation. (35:42), and exploring the ports that his ship would stop. (37:18) o Also tells some stories of what it was like to be out on the high seas. (38:11) o His squadron, the HS-4 never had a chance to go on swim calls which was quite typical on long-term cruises. (40:32) Also, mentions that his relationships and friendships were different with different groups. (42:01) • Perceptions by Foreigners of America (43:41) o While stationed in Japan, U.S. troops like Dykgraaf were well received but with limited access to the harbor and the port because they were aboard a nuclear carrier. (43:58) Were often met by huge protestors because of carrying nuclear stuff. (44:23) o Also describes what other foreigners’ perceptions of Americans were elsewhere. (44:35) • Discussion about Geneva Convention rights (46:17) o Dykgraaf also discusses how he understood after training how he should be treated according to his Geneva Convention rights. (47:08) �o While training he had been put through hypothetical situations up to the breaking point. (47:19) o Briefly discusses what he would do if he was put in a situation that was against his morals versus his Geneva rights. (48:45) o Discusses in depth, his week-long experience in the desert. (49:38) • Personal Reflection (51:35) o Dykgraaf mentions that his experience was a good one. He says that he still has not figured out how what he has learned will connect with his life now. o Recommended, the Coast Guard and/or the Air Force to future soldiers. (52:44) o Out of this experience, he gained a sense of honor, greater courage, and commitment. (53:24) o Discusses what the pay rate was for men in his military position. (55:28) o Further discusses that military men were not taxed in the Gulf because it was an area that was a tax-free zone. (58:54) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DyKgraaf, Eric (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource DyKgraaf, Eric Description An account of the resource Eric J. DyKgraaf is a recent Iraqi War veteran who served in the U.S. Navy as an E-5 from May 2000 to May 2005. In this account, DyKgraaf discusses his pre-enlistment, enlistment and training, and active duty abroad. Among the interesting things DyKgraaf highlights is his naval experiences and expertise while stationed in and around the Persian Gulf, aboard ship, or stops along the way. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ingle, Sara (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-25 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DykgraafE Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97b4142e00439225b48009adadac60c0.mp4 0938b62329c7bdff3e8223a967c7f318 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0fe83eaf9020d392cbd1ee6c4ee3c344.pdf 835a38d8cb11c0661e2f7bbf7ff390b1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Milton DeVries, Albert Lobbezoo and Andrew Dykstra 53:58 Introduction (00:42)    Milton DeVries, is from Wyoming, Michigan and was in the 32nd Division, 127th Regiment, Company F. While in he served as a sergeant. Albert Lobbezoo is from Caledonia, Michigan. He was drafted on April 16th 1941, and served in the 126th Infantry and finished his service in the 32nd Division Signal Corps. Andrew Dykstra was born in Kellogsville, Michigan and served with the 32nd Division. Andrew was in Company F, 127th Infantry, and held the rank of sergeant. Before the Military (02:28)        Milton, was working at General Motors in 1941 and he was drafted into the Army on April 16, 1941. When they were drafted, they started out in Bigelow Field in Wyoming, and they went to Kalamazoo the first night. The next day they were brought to Fort Custer, Michigan and they were inducted into the Army on April 17. Before Andrew was drafted, he worked for several years on a farm. Albert also worked on a farm prior to his military service. On October 13, 1940, all men from age 21-29 had to register for the draft. Albert and Andrew knew each other before the war had begun. Military Service (05:20)         The men spent about two weeks at Fort Custer once they were inducted. They pulled targets at the firing range. Then they were sent to Camp Livingston, Louisiana and were put into the 127th Infantry. At basic training, the climate was hot. That summer, one of the largest military maneuvers in our nation’s history was held in North Carolina. It lasted for six weeks. The only equipment that they had was their rifles. The uniform that they wore was from World War I and the rifle was also a WWI issued 23. (07:27) In May, they were still wearing wool uniforms. When Pearl Harbor happened, the men were in Louisiana. Albert was coming home from church and he heard about it on the radio in the car. Every morning the men were told to pack everything they had in their barracks bag because they did not know when they would leave. The 125th Infantry was sent to the coast to guard the United States. They left Louisiana in February 1942. The Division was slated to go to Europe, but they were needed in New Guinea. (09:27) �    Albert drove a Carry-All, which is like a Suburban, from Louisiana to Massachusetts. From there they boarded a train and five nights and six days later they arrived in San Francisco. They did not get off the train very often, each man had a bunk, and the only time they left their car was for lunch and dinner, and to walk around a little bit. When they arrived in San Francisco, they went to Fort Ord. About a month later, they boarded a ship on April 16, 1942. The first night was very stormy, and the men remember passing Alcatraz and the storm picked up right away. (11:49) The Pacific (12:00)         While on ship, Albert was on the ‘poop deck’ playing cards and the attitude of the men was that they would not be gone very long because they would quickly whip the Japanese and then go home. The men did not know where they were going, but they made landfall first in Australia. When in Australia, the infantry was moved far away from the towns. They were in an Australian Army training camp which only had tents and a mess hall. The camp was called Woodside and it was just Americans there, no Australians. The Australians were very happy to have the Americans there. Especially the women. At the camp, they did some drill and a few war exercises. They moved to Camp Cable outside of Brisbane where they were given jungle training. (14:20) At this point, they still had no contact with the Australian Army. By that time, they had been issued M-1 rifles and summer uniforms. New Guinea (16:00)        Milton and Andy took a Kaiser built Liberty Ship from Brisbane to New Guinea. Barrels of gas made the below decks smell, so Milton and a friend managed to stay top side for most of the journey. They land at Port Moresby, New Guinea. The men were sent out in a field near the airfield and were told to dig in. (18:03) Part of the 126th walked over the Owen Stanley Mountains and the others flew over. All three men were able to fly. When they landed on the other side of the mountain, it was many days walk to Buna. Andy remembers flying to the airfield at Dobodura and walking north to Buna. On Christmas Day, 1942, they began the battle. (20:47) The men saw plenty of Japanese snipers, and many American soldiers were killed from them. A man named Yeutter in Weapons Platoon was the first one to be wounded, and afterwards, Milton got his tommy gun (Thompson sub-machine gun). Communications were poor, but Albert worked the switchboard at the 32nd Division Headquarters, which was pretty well protected. (22:26) �                    Andy remembers one time while they were on the front lines, they heard what sounded like firecrackers behind them, which turned out to be Japanese soldiers shooting explosive shells. When they first went into combat, they did not know where the Japanese were. They crawled along and when someone fired at them, they fired back. (24:41) There was no front line, because the Japanese were everywhere. In their company, 223 men went over the mountains in several planes. Once the battle was over and they returned to Australia, only twenty three remained. Not all were killed, but there were many casualties. They could usually smell the Japanese because they were so close. (26:15) Around Christmas Eve, Milton and another soldier named Pete, got into a boat and went out to a peninsula, and for three days they were surrounded by the Japanese. Thirty or forty men formed a circle and just waited for them to come. The Australians were approaching from the south with tanks, but the tanks could not effectively operate, so everything had to be done hand to hand. Andy stayed back with the supplies, so he was able to avoid most of the heavy combat. But one day he was walking down a trail and a mortar shell fell right between him and another man, but it was a dud and it failed to explode. Organization was non-existent because artillery and mortars were flying everywhere, and many casualties were a result of friendly fire. (28:33) Andy was in charge of the runners because he was a sergeant. He remembers that everyone was on their own. Nobody knew where anybody else was. At night, the Japanese would approach their positions and throw stones to try to get them to shoot and reveal their location. (30:13) Milton and his men were there for three days, pushing forward and fighting at Buna Mission. He was shot on January 2nd at Buna Mission. In the middle of the night, sometimes friendly fire would occur because people would be coming and going all the time, it was hard to tell friend from foe. During a beach landing, Al was coming ashore and he saw General MacArthur smoking a pipe coming up beside him. (32:02) The three men believe that MacArthur was one of the greatest leaders and generals that the United States has ever had. After the men were done digging their foxholes, they would be filled with water. The changing of the tides caused the ground water to rise as well. The food that they were eating was c-rations. Some planes were dropping supplies, but they were often shot at by the Japanese. Andy remembers that the first Japanese he saw were dead bodies on the beach, which was after Buna. (34:18) Most of the men had malaria, dengue fever and yellow jaundice. Al had jaundice so bad the medic thought he was dead. He was flown to a med-center to be treated. The men also had jungle rot on their feet, with the temperature up to 130 degrees and it rained everyday. (36:00) When Milton was shot at Buna Mission, he was sent back to an aid station, sewed up and put in a medical tent for ten days before he could be moved back to Port Moresby. �  Al made it through the entire war and went to the Philippines. When he came home, his unit was preparing to invade Japan, and only two original members of the 32nd remained; Al being one of them. The men fought in blue jeans, and the personnel on the boats taking people back and forth all wore combat uniforms. After Buna, they had k-rations for food, and they also had other supplies that they needed. After Buna (38:42)             Once fighting in Buna was over, the men were sent back to Australia to regroup because they had lost so many men. They stopped at a nice beach, Coolangatta, so they could swim. While swimming, a soldier was hit by a wave, taken out to sea and drown. The men remained there for about two weeks. After they got enough men to head back they went to Finschaefen. That is where Andy got enough points and was sent home. He left through Milne Bay. (40:27) Al went from Australia to the Philippines and was at the Battle of Leyte. (43:35) This battle was very tough, on the way up a mountain to establish a communication station; they looked down and could see the Japanese and tell them from the Americans by their shoes. Reports say that there was between twenty and thirty thousand Japanese there. They had one prisoner; he was skin and bones and scared stiff. If the Japanese knew he was still alive and was caught, they would have killed him. At a Japanese hospital, they saw that they killed their own wounded that couldn’t be moved so they would not be captured by the Americans. (45:35) From Leyte, they made a landing at Luzon. From there Al ended up in Baguio which was a nice resort. At that point, Al and the other member of the 32nd were able to go home. They left from Manila and boarded a captured German ship. The captain was also German, and he did not know how to navigate or read a map because it took them thirty two days to get home. (47:14) Thinking back to the battle, Andy remembers one of his runners was heading back from the front and he ran into General Eichelberger, who asked him how things were going. The runner offered to take him up to the battle to see for himself, he said that he wanted too, but they wouldn’t let him because of his rank. He was a good general. Al remembers back in Brisbane seeing MacArthur and his wife with their son walking to church one morning. After the War (49:18)     After Milton was wounded, he was shipped back to California and eventually sent back to Battle Creek, Michigan. He was there from May till August 16, then was discharged. Milton was given an office job at General Motors and stayed there for thirty five years. Andy went back to working on the farm for Westman Brothers for twenty five years. Al also went back to the farm. Bell Telephone offered him a job right away due to his signal corps and communications experience in the war. He turned them down. �   Then he went to Reynolds Metal for a while, built trailers, and eventually got a job at General Motors. Even though he worked for GM, he always drove a Ford, and when asked about it, he said he knew what a GM car was made of. (52:15) After the war experience, the men feel that people should not take for granted the freedoms that they have. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DykstraA0266V Title A name given to the resource Dykstra, Andrew (Interview outline and video), 2004 Description An account of the resource Milton was born in Wyoming, Michigan and worked at General Motors until he was drafted. Albert was from Caledonia, Michigan and he worked on a farm. Andrew grew up in Kellogsville and he too was a farm hand for many years. Like Milton and Albert, he was drafted on April 16, 1941. All three men served with the 32nd Division and were sent to New Guinea and participated in the Buna campaign. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dykstra, Andrew Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-10-04 Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02d5a858cc845d10c5342732d745b1d9.m4v 53ab8ebb760737b6709f0642dc5cd65c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b481090488d57d44e307cd63690412bd.pdf 13b44ca9fb2c437c9740f29761516ab7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Korean War Glenn Dykstra Interview Length: (01:07:01:00) Pre-Enlistment / Training (00:00:30:00)  Born in Wautonga, Oklahoma in 1932 during the Dust Bowl days (00:00:30:00)  His father had just got out of the service when he married Dykstra’s mother and he worked at a cotton farmer (00:00:45:00) o His family had to move because of the Dust Bowl, so they moved to Michigan when Dykstra was four (00:01:06:00) o Dykstra remembers while in Oklahoma that his mother would cover them up with wet curtains at night so that they could breathe (00:01:23:00)  When they moved to Michigan, Dykstra’s father got a job working in Grand Rapids (00:01:49:00) o There was an uncle and aunt that lived in Grand Rapids (00:01:58:00) o His father worked in a cement block factory in Grand Rapids as well as farming part-time (00:02:17:00)  Dykstra was in high school for four years; he nearly graduated but it came along that he could join the Air Force at the age of seventeen, so Dykstra joined the Air Force and finished his schooling there (00:02:46:00) o He wanted to join the Air Force because he was sick of farming; while in high school, he did some farming and raised pigs by himself as part of the FFA (Future Farmers of America) (00:03:14:00) o Dykstra thought that being in the Air Force would be the magic thing to get away from the farm (00:03:37:00)  At the time, the Air Force had a recruitment center in Allegan, Michigan, so he went down there one day after school and joined the Air Force (00:03:51:00) o Dykstra’s father had served for ten years, including during World War I, and was wounded, but both he and Dykstra’s mother were okay with Dykstra joining the Air Force (00:04:13:00)  The Korean war had not started when Dykstra first enlisted in the military (00:04:35:00)  After Dykstra joined the Air Force, a man came to his house, picked him up and took him to Detroit, where he had to get his different medical tests done (00:05:11:00) o The military gave shots to all the newly enlisted men and threw some clothes at them, although none of the clothes fit (00:05:32:00) o All the new recruits were not upset by the way they were treated; they had been brought up in situations similar to Dykstra, meaning their families were not rich (00:05:44:00)  From Detroit, a load of about thirty recruits got onto a steam-engine train and went down to San Antonio, Texas and Lackland Air Force Base (00:06:10:00) �  o It was a twelve or fourteen day journey from Detroit to San Antonio and on occasion, the train would stop and beside the tracks were animals and cowboys would start loading the animals into cattle cars (00:06:43:00) o It was cold in Michigan and a lot of times, the men did not have heat in the train (00:07:18:00) o On the journey, the engineer would stop in a town and the men could get off to buy food, normally canned foods (00:07:58:00) o The first thing that the Air Force did once the men got to Lackland was took the men into a large building and started throwing more clothes at them (00:08:35:00)  The men had nowhere to sleep on the train, so they were tired but when they got down to Lackland, the first sergeant came into the barracks just after the men had fallen asleep and told them to get up (00:08:55:00)  The first sergeant told the men it was cold outside and to put their clothes on; some of the men complied and put on their overcoats which were twice as big as what they needed to be (00:09:39:00)  Then, at nine or ten o’clock, it started getting hot out, so the first sergeant told the men to go back inside and get on their jock straps but keep their overcoats on, just to keep them miserable (00:09:47:00) o Basic training was mostly handling guns and ammunition, just like the Army; the men also went to class but the classes were simply, just about maintenance and similar things (00:10:15:00) From Lackland, Dykstra went through several different schools (00:10:41:00) o At Rantoul, Illinois, he taught aircraft hydraulic school as well as aircraft and engines for propeller aircraft (00:10:55:00) Eventually, the Korean War began and Dykstra wanted to get out of teaching and go overseas, so he volunteered (00:11:24:00) o Once he finally got flying status overseas, Dykstra taught how to be a flight engineer; he did not have schooling in the subject but an older man taught him (00:11:48:00) o After that, Dykstra taught how to be a weight and balance technician, a job that involved figure the correct amount of armaments a plane could handle; while he was doing this, Dykstra was still at Rantoul (00:12:13:00) o Dykstra stayed at Rantoul for a few years as an instructor before he left and went overseas (00:13:37:00) Deployment (00:14:11:00)  When he went overseas, Dykstra went to Japan first, something everyone in the Air Force did; ironically, the Air Force personnel went overseas on a ship and the Army personnel flew overseas (00:14:11:00)  When he went overseas, Dykstra sailed on a troop carrier (00:14:32:00) o During the trip over, a lot of the men got seasick if they were not used to it and even some of the men who were used to it ended up getting seasick; Dykstra did not get seasick until after about a week or so (00:14:56:00) o The journey was a three week trip from San Francisco to Japan (00:15:21:00) �    o When the men slept on the troop carrier, they slept in bunks, sometimes six tall and when they started going back and forth, the men had to get out, lest they get seasick (00:15:37:00) o They had good food to eat on the ship, mostly beans and franks, but one time Dykstra was waiting in line with his aluminum tray (00:16:06:00)  There was a store on the ship where the men could buy crackers and stuff (00:16:48:00)  Anyway, another person’s tray slid past Dykstra full of vomit and that was the end of it for him; he lived on crackers for the rest of the journey (00:16:58:00) In Japan, the men stayed at what became Tokyo International Airport (00:17:20:00) o While in Japan, Dykstra was on flying status and started taking trips into Korea on B-17 bombers and C-47 cargo planes (00:17:45:00) o Dykstra did not go on bombing missions too much, although he did go on a few; if they had VIP personnel, then he flew with them on B-17s (00:18:20:00) o At the time, Dykstra worked as a flight engineer or crew chief; he swung back and forth between each job and received wings for both (00:18:44:00) As the Korean War got worse, it was then mostly Korean K-sites, locations to land the plane in Korea; in principle, these sites were secure, that was not always the case, and they sometimes took small arms fire (00:18:57:00) One time, Dykstra felt sorry for a man in the reserves who did not have the right type of training and had been shot at, which made quite a difference; the man was flying the plane, with Dykstra as his flight engineer and another man as co-pilot (00:19:49:00) o At a certain point, the plane had to go through a pass to get to the second K-site; the pass was just big enough to fit a plane through (00:20:21:00) o They got about halfway through the pass when they lost an engine and both the pilot and co-pilot did not know what to do, so Dykstra told them the feather the prop because it was dragging them down (00:20:42:00)  The pilots asked Dykstra how to feather the prop and he showed them how; they pressed a button and the prop feathered itself, which meant that it stopped running and turning (00:21:13:00) o The reserve pilot had never been through that before and when Dykstra looked at him, he was ringed with sweat; Dykstra told him that he was doing okay and to just steer and Dykstra would do the rest (00:21:38:00) o When they got to the end of the pass, they saw the runway but when the pilot requested permission to land, the control tower said that they could not land (00:22:44:00)  Dykstra deduced that the runway was jammed with aircraft and he told the pilot it was no problem, they would just land in grass on the other side of the field (00:23:11:00) o Once the plane stopped, the pilot jumped out and ran right for the tower; Dykstra could hear him yelling all the way out in the field and when he came back to the plane, Dykstra told him that that was the way it had to be, they could not land when another plane was on the runway (00:23:45:00) Dykstra ended up flying around several famous people, including Bob Hope and Marilyn Monroe for USO shows (00:24:27:00) �     o They also flew around Eisenhower and Nixon when they were running for President; he liked Nixon well enough, but thought Eisenhower was "too army". (00:25:24:00)  One time, they told Dykstra that they would be back to the plane at a certain time because they had a schedule to keep; an hour or two went by and Dykstra told another man that he would start the engines and have them running, then call the tower and tell them that the plane was running (00:25:53:00)  However, there was no one to stand fire guard and Dykstra went out to stand guard; when he got back to the base, Eisenhower wrote him up for not wearing his hat (00:26:46:00)  Later, Dykstra told a commanding officer that no one was able to stand fire guard, which was why Dykstra did what he did (00:27:30:00) The bombing missions he went on were actually practice missions (00:28:05:00) He also went out to the wrecks of several bombers because at that time, the jet bombers were coming out and they were "throwing labs"; if the plane got going real fast, real low and tried to abruptly pull up, they threw the labs off the front of the plane (00:28:16:00) o "Labs" were bombs bombs (00:29:11:00) o The pilots did this on purpose because it was a way to bomb the enemy without blowing themselves up, a tactic that the pilots used quite a bit (00:29:22:00) o The men practiced with the labs in the States (00:29:49:00) o On time, there was a crash, Dykstra and another man had to go out, inspect the damages and pay for whatever was damaged (00:30:03:00)  The crash occurred where a farmer was raising fifty acres of sweet potatoes and the plane had crashed in the middle (00:30:19:00)  When the two men got to the scene, they found a man to clear a path back to the plane and when he did, the men found that the plane had all of its wings; they smelled jet fuel and because it had been three days, when they started looking around, no one was there (00:31:03:00)  The pilots had blown the canopy, which was in the woods, and after looking around some more, Dykstra noticed smoke coming from the base of a tree; the two men in the plane had burned themselves up when ejecting (00:31:57:00)  The other man said it was just a parachute but sure enough, when Dykstra kicked it, there was a person in it (00:32:41:00) During the incident with the reserve pilot, the plane was hit several times with small arms fire (00:33:27:00) o They had to keep low because if they got up high, the anti-aircraft guns would get them (00:33:37:00) On occasion, when the sheet-metal people got a hold of the plane, they stapled beer cans to cover the holes up; they were short of all supplies, even ammunition (00:33:54:00) Dykstra was not stationed at K-2 [one of the K-sites], he just flew into there a couple of times (00:34:26:00) �    o During another time he flew there, the men told him to not take his clothes off and to leave his shoes on because "Bed Check Charlie" was going to be there (00:34:33:00) o Dykstra did not know what Be Check Charlie was but sure enough, when it got dark out, Bedcheck Charlie came; it was just a light plane and the pilot would throw hand-bombs out of the plane (00:34:49:00)  The bombs were enough to keep the people at K-2 busy (00:35:05:00) o One commander finally heard about the situation, got into a light plane himself and shot the North Korean plane out of the air (00:35:12:00) Dykstra would land in Korea on occasion, such as when he lost an engine; he was not stationed in Korea but he flew in and out a lot (00:35:50:00) o Sometimes the people on R&R in Japan would see the plane and want a ride back to their units in Korea (00:36:08:00) Korea was not a very organized place to be stationed (00:37:01:00) o The television show M*A*S*H was a pretty accurate portrayal (00:37:36:00) o There was poverty in the country and the Koreans had a bad situation with crops; Americans would end up bombing the crops (00:37:50:00) o However, the Koreans seemed to make it pretty good (00:38:12:00) o When the Chinese finally joined the Koreans, then a lot more Americans soldiers were killed (00:38:18:00) o If the average Korean knew what the Americans were fighting for, then they treated the soldiers okay (00:38:38:00)  The Koreans that Dykstra met seemed okay and he ended up fighting along side some of them if he happened to be in the area (00:38:51:00) The base in Japan was originally a Japanese base but when the war broke out in Korea, the Americans took the base over (00:39:41:00) o The Americans had quite a few fights at the time and it was dangerous getting out of the base (00:40:01:00) o One time, a friend of Dykstra woke him up at about three in the morning and said that he saw Dykstra had a flight going out of the base to China (00:40:23:00)  When Dykstra asked if he did, the friend said that the commander had put Dykstra’s name up there for the flight; the friend asked if he could have it, Dykstra said that he could and that was the last that Dykstra heard of the friend (00:40:44:00)  They lost some planes flying over China although they were not supposed to be flying over China (00:41:20:00) The Japanese people had a culture all their own (00:42:38:00) o If a soldier saw someone hit by a car on the street, he could not help them because if he did help them, then he owned them (00:42:42:00) o There were a lot of bombings in Tokyo; both damage from World War II and people setting off bombs; every once in awhile, people would set off bombs in the city just to make trouble (00:43:16:00) o When he first went overseas, the Japanese treated the American soldiers well but as things got worse, McArthur went over to manage the situation (00:44:57:00)  A lot of the Japanese people liked McArthur liked him and a lot of people did not but he was building himself up to be a king (00:46:01:00) �  o Dykstra actually lived with Japanese people for about six months (00:46:28:00) o Most of the houses were bombed out when Dykstra got over there and he ended up picking a Japanese dictionary from a bombed out building (00:44:44:00) o Dykstra stayed with people who worked on the base (00:47:21:00) o When the Japanese started flying planes, they did not know how to handle them properly (00:47:51:00)  One time, Dykstra was flying over the sea of Japan and all at once, the men were looking out the windshield and a plane went by with the tail markings of Japanese Airlines (00:48:09:00)  The Japanese plane only missed Dykstra’s plane by less than one hundred feet; any closer and they would have crashed (00:48:36:00) o There were earthquakes all the time in Japan (00:48:57:00)  One time, Dykstra had a man working for him and they had a big earthquake and the cement rolled up like a wave, although it did not break (00:49:03:00)  Dykstra went out to the plane to tell the other man to get out of the plane, but the other man said that he would stay and talk with the tower (00:49:22:00) o The men had to watch their steps in Tokyo (00:50:25:00)  A lot of men went back to Japan for their R&R and the Army had marked out where they could go; still, Dykstra ended up going to some of the places that he was not supposed to go into (00:50:37:00) o Anything the men wanted was in Japan and they did not have to walk too far to get it (00:51:09:00) o There were kids begging the soldiers for candy, but that was not a unique situation (00:51:28:00) o The Japanese had just started to get the fast trains when Dykstra was there (00:51:48:00) One time, Dykstra had a new guy working on the ramp who was supposed to be gassing the planes (00:52:46:00) o Dykstra had a bunch of VIPs that he was taking out that morning and they had just started taking off and all at once, Dykstra looked out the window and the gas was spraying all over the place (00:53:01:00) o The new man had forgot to lock the gas fillers down and the gas was spraying all over the plane (00:53:24:00) o Dykstra told everyone to remain calm and not make any sparks while they powered the plane down; the base commander ended up yelling at the man working with the gasoline (00:53:40:00) Another time, a soldier from Michigan wanted to fly above a tsunami; Dykstra said that it was pretty high waves and the fly high (00:54:15:00) o The man told Dykstra that he was going with him and Dykstra told him that the winds were very high in the storm and could change at any time (00:54:35:00) o The man was adamant to go and take some pictures, but he told Dykstra that Japanese were living out there already and taming the land once the storm had passed (00:54:44:00) � o As the men got out there, a large black cloud came closer and closer; the cloud turned out to be a wave and when Dykstra suggested that they pull out, the other man said that it was just a rain cloud (00:55:11:00) o They got out to the point that the wave was real tall and all of the sudden, a volcano came up and started spurting fire (00:55:43:00) The tower connections were not too good at the time (00:56:48:00) o One time, a man in the tower was watching a flock of geese instead of Dykstra’s plane (00:57:03:00) o The man kept saying that they were just about ready to make touchdown but when the plane did land, it was only about fifteen feet from a brick wall; if they had hit the brick wall, they would have blown up (00:57:18:00) Return to the United States / Post-Military Life (00:57:47:00)  Dykstra spent four years overseas, including time after the war was over; eventually, he came back and joined the bomb squad at Langley Air Force Base (00:57:47:00) o He still worked as a flight engineer and crew chief and several planes and ended up spending a total of eight years in the Air Force (00:58:23:00) o When he finally did leave, Dykstra thought that he could do better outside the military, which he did (00:58:36:00)  After leaving the Air Force, Dykstra went into electro-plating in California (00:58:49:00) o Over time, his kids grew up; however, California was a rough place back then for kids to grow up and Dykstra decided that he did not want his kids to grow up like that (00:59:14:00) o He owned a farm back in Michigan, so his family moved back (00:59:46:00) o When they got back to the farm, Dykstra’s family started raising asparagus; they had thirty acres of the crop and they would ship the crops to an canary in Fennville (00:59:53:00)  Growing asparagus was better than raising animals because he was married to the animals; he could not go any place, he had to feed them, etc. (01:00:29:00)  Dykstra learned a lot in the Air Force, including aircraft maintenance and mathematics and he still uses the mathematics to this day (01:00:53:00) o Dykstra believes that the Air Force is a good place to go and learn something because they do not take anything away from the men; they could keep going to school as long as they were doing well (01:01:49:00) o Out of the six years he spent in the Air Force, Dykstra spent six years in school (01:02:16:00)  Seeing the plane crashes is one of the things that Dykstra would like to forget (01:03:47:00)  The soldiers had it much harder than Dykstra did (01:04:07:00)  Whenever they would get shot at, they men could hear the bullets going through the plane; a lot of the pilots and people riding in the planes sent notes saying that they would the Koreans what they needed if they would stop fighting (01:04:14:00) o It eventually got to the point that the planes were being shot through the canopy and they had to change that out; they had to put heavy steel where people sat to shield them from the bullets and it worked out well (01:04:59:00) �o There were people in the plane who threw the notes out the open door, which drew a lot of small-arms fire (01:05:47:00) o They used mainly C-47s to deliver the notes (01:06:32:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dykstra, Glenn (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dykstra, Glenn Description An account of the resource Glenn Dykstra was born in Oklahoma in 1932. However, because of the effects of the Dust Bowl, his family moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan. Dykstra joined the Air Force when he was seventeen and finished his school while in the service. After training at Lackland Air Force base, Dykstra taught at several bases around the country. Eventually, he shipped out to Japan and flew both bombing and cargo missions into Korea during the Korean War. He also flew VIPs around, including Eisenhower, Nixon, Bob Hope and Marilyn Monroe. Dykstra spent a total of four years deployed overseas, including time after the conflict in Korea had concluded. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-23 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DykstraG Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/27dddbf8406ed6da402d2ee2a0394543.m4v ff1fee98292b821a43340f6bd1a3fe3e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d27c600347939ac47ec6f0a6f92e173.pdf 639ba631e5281c8730db40a886a1df4a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War James Dykstra Time (01:37:20) Background (00:09)        Born in Grand Rapids Michigan in 1947 (00:09) Family owned a wholesale distributorship (00:19) Had 4 siblings (00:53) Went to Seymour Elementary and Grand Rapids Christian High School (01:06) Graduated high school in 1965 (01:21) Went to Grand Rapids Junior College (02:11) Heard about the Vietnam conflict in 1967 but did not think it was as big as it was (04:30) Draft/Training (05:02)         Showed up for draft because it was his duty to serve (05:02) He was 6 foot 6 inches so he thought he would be too tall, but they raised the height limit (05:28) Took a bus to Detroit then a train to Fort Knox, Kentucky (06:11) Was in a platoon of college educated men from the Grand Rapids area (07:16) Hardest part about Boot Camp was the physical training (07:48) Being disciplined and following orders was not a hard thing to do (09:25) Was in Basic Training for 8 to 10 weeks(10:35) Was told he was to go to Military Police training at Fort Gordon, Georgia (11:39) Military Police School (12:21)       Does not remember much of Military Police School other than it was easy (12:21) Stayed in WWII era barracks which were heated by coal (13:55) Was in Military Police School for 8 weeks (15:25) Was sent to White Sands Proving Grounds in New Mexico (15:31) Was assigned to Rhodes Canyon, New Mexico (15:53) Lived in a ranch home with 7 other men as a security force (16:13) �    Guarded a top security site near where the atom bombs were tested (16:37) Stood guard in small “phone booths” as checkpoints near the proving grounds (17:24) Worked 12 hour shifts 7 days a week (18:00) Shot at targets in spare time (18:43) Active Duty (21:39)                        Was called to report to the Lieutenant who told him he was ordered to go to Vietnam (21:40) Flew from Grand Rapids, Michigan to Fort Lewis, Washington (22:34) Flew from Fort Lewis to Alaska then to Japan and finally to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam (23:09) Remembers the heat as being “oppressive” (23:54) Boarded a C-130 aircraft which brought him to Long Binh, Vietnam (24:24) From Long Binh was sent to Bien Hoa, Vietnam (24:54) Was not impressed by the local countryside and villages (25:39) Never before encountered a Third World country (26:30) Was sent from Bien Hoa to the 90th Replacement Depot (27:25) Joined up with a Military Police company in Long Binh (27:54) Was ordered to help as a military prison guard (28:12) Military prison was a stockade with double fences and guard towers (30:05) o Military prison had recently had a riot and some building were burnt to the ground (31:05) Military prison held around 700 people but it was built for 300 (31:38) Riot had started over race conflicts among inmates (31:54) Nonviolent prisoners were given work detail of burning waste and sandbagging and lived in tents (32:48) Dangerous and violent prisoners were left to live off the land and run wild within their confine (33:43) o Guards were ordered not to enter, but throw their food over the fence (34:32) Was ordered to round up the violent prisoners in riot gear and gassed them out (38:16) Threw the violent prisoners in cells made of shipping containers (39:50) Military prisoners were imprisoned for murder, cowardice, fraternization with the enemy, deserting, and going AWOL (41:02) Guards were always in a state of fear, ready for anything (48:41) While taking incoming fire from the Viet Cong, prisoners were kept in the bunker while guards stood outside (49:48) Guarded 12 hours a day 7 days a week at the stockade (50:48) Was put in charge of maximum security because he had taken a psychology 101 class in college (51:15) �              After returning from Rest and Recreation trip, was assigned to road patrol of Bien Hoa, Vietnam (52:47) Went to Hong Kong for R&R with a fellow Grand Rapids citizen (53:03) o Spent “wads” of Hong Kong dollars on new clothes and a nice hotel (53:36) Did not make any personal relationships with the inmates (55:42) Did not want to go on work detail because it was hot and humid, and he did not want to have to shoot a man for trying to run (56:22) Witnessed how “cheap” life is in a Third World country (59:18) o Hit and run victims were left at the side of the road for days (59:26) Main job in Bien Hoa was to make sure military supply trucks kept moving (01:00:21) At night patrolled the red light district for military men hiring prostitutes (01:01:21) Had the help of QCs or Vietnamese military police as interpreters (01:04:53) o The QC military police had lax discipline- they often did not show up for duty (01:05:44) Could not tell who was enemy Viet Cong and who was your friend (01:06:06) Knew he was in the armed forces for patriotism and to serve his country but did not know what the U.S’s reason was for involvement (01:07:23) Thinks the Vietnam war was a war for the high ranking individuals (01:08:17) o High ranking officers “lived like kings” in massive chateaus (01:08:25) Also ran convoy security for airplanes landing and unloading in Long Binh (01:11:20) Sometimes received sniper fire while running convoys (01:12:50) One time had to escort two women from Long Binh to Saigon at night (01:16:13) After Military Service (01:18:36)         The smell of a freshly oiled road brings back flashbacks of Vietnam (01:18:36) The smell of burning diesel fuel also brings back flashbacks (01:19:31) Flew out of Vietnam to San Francisco, California (01:23:39) Was handed his final military pay check on July 4, 1969 (01:23:49) Was called names and harassed by passersby in San Francisco while he was wearing his uniform (01:25:06) Dad brought him back to work the day after he returned from Vietnam (01:27:13) Went back to class at Grand Rapids Junior College but did not understand the student’s attitudes (01:27:53) Stopped going to class and worked at the family business instead (01:28:36) Influences from the Military (01:29:07)   Understood how fortunate he was to have grown up in a safe place like Grand Rapids, Michigan (01:29:07) Enjoyed traveling about the country more (01:29:47) �   Only talks about his experience in Vietnam with fellow veterans because others would not understand (01:30:25) Did not follow what was happening in Vietnam after he left (01:33:08) Was never approached by anti-war protesters directly back home (01:34:51) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dykstra, James (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dykstra, James Description An account of the resource Jim Dykstra was born in Grand Rapids in 1947 and was attending Grand Rapids Junior College when he was drafted for military service in 1967. Jim was sent to Military Police School where he guarded a proving ground in New Mexico. Jim was then sent to Vietnam where he served as a guard at the military prison in Long Binh where convicted U.S. service men were kept. Because he had a little more education than the other guards, he was put in charge of the maximum security section of the prison, but he eventually changed jobs and took over the road patrol outside of the prison Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09-09 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DykstraJ Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eed96d4fd8c1ab45533f9a3845ac107c.mp4 d7814a4d0d2fa6aa5d7dc640d1cabee0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa7ca0a860af44cd0f451b4da371b699.pdf e4908d07c3027413e17be325c9ae6265 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW RON DYKSTRA Born: Holland, MI July 6, 1948 Resides: Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 20, 2013 Interviewer: Ron, can you start off with some background on yourself? Where and when were you born? I was born in Holland, Michigan of July 6th of 1948. Interviewer: Now, did you grow up in Holland? No, my mother happened to be vacationing on the beach in Holland and my twin brother and I decided to come early, so we always lived in Grandville, but I was born in the Holland hospital. Interviewer: What did your family do for a living at that time? My father was a salesman for Wolverine World Wide. Interviewer: Did your mother stay at home, or did she have a job? Yes, she stayed home the whole time with the kids, there were five of us, at the end there were five of us. Interviewer: So, you went to high school in Grandville then? Yes Interviewer: What did you do after you graduated? Well, I graduated from Grandville and decided it was—I went off to Ferris State College and took a two year commercial art course. 1:14 It took two straight years because I wanted to make my senior year a little easier and I could focus on my portfolio work, so I 1 �went two straight years and didn’t take the summer off, and when I did take the summer off I got drafted. Interviewer: Had you not registered for fall? I did not register for fall quarter and I should have. I should have been smarter than I was at that time and I was drafted. Interviewer: What did you know about Vietnam at that point? The time I was in school—I graduated in 1966 and there was awareness if you weren’t in college and didn’t have a deferment there was a good chance you were going to be drafted. When I finished my college, two years, it was 1968. 2:00 And by that time one of my best friends, who lived only a block away came home in a box and right away I knew that I was in trouble here, because of that, and my best friend, my best friend, had just come back, because he graduated in 1966 and he was drafted and he was gone. He had just come back from Vietnam, and he didn’t say much, he didn’t talk much. He was a different person when he came back, so I knew that I was in trouble once I got that draft notice that I was going to be a goner. Interviewer: Did you have much of a sense of what the war was supposed to be about? Yeah, I did, coming from Grandville, Michigan, you know everybody—―We’re going to fight communists and keep communists off our shores‖, I mean that’s what it was all about. My father, my grandfather had all served, and everybody said, ―Well, if it happens, it happens, you’re going to serve your country, you’re going to do—―, and we did, I mean, that’s one of those things that I knew that, but I didn’t like what that solutions was that was going to happen. 3:05 2 �Interviewer: When did you actually have to report for duty? I reported for duty on March 3rd, 1969. It was, literally, about nine months after I got my draft notice I was gone, I mean, it was—I got the draft notice—well it was less than that, I got the draft notice in 1968, let’s say, roughly, August, September of 1968, and I was gone by March 3rd. Interviewer: So, why was there a time lag in between? Did they just tell you when to report? Right, they basically said—well, first of all you had to go and get a physical to make sure that you were up to their standards. And I went—281 was the draft board in Grand Rapids and they bused you to Detroit to go through your physical and then you’d come home and say, ―Yeah, you’re ready‖ , and then they would give you a certain time when you would have to report, and then you were done. 4:02 So, then again, you would go into Detroit, they would do a final physical to make sure everything was all right and they would send you off to where you’re going to be having your basic training. Interviewer: Now, going in, were their people who were trying to find ways to beat the physical? Not to the level that I understood. In 1968-69, I didn’t see that as much as I did in 1970 when I came out. I saw more and more, and heard more and more of the drinking a case of coke, or eating a bunch of bananas, or trying to beat the physical thing; I didn’t hear that until I came back in 1970. Interviewer: Where did they send you for basic training? I went to Fort Knox, Kentucky and basic, just like everybody else’s training, went down there and thought I was in pretty good shape, I wasn’t a four letter athlete, but I did some 3 �athletic things and thought I was in pretty good shape, but boy, they tear you down, there’s no doubt about it. 5:08 The nice thing for me is when I got down there, and it was one of those things that was frustrating for me is that you get there, they’ve taken you away from your family, they’ve shaved your head, they lined me up in this big formation and they said, there were like two hundred of us in this formation, and they said, ―Anybody that’s had a felony fall out, anybody that’s had this fall out‖, and before you know it there was like twenty of us standing in this formation and I’m saying, ―What is going on here?‖ and there was a small little church that was right in front of us and they said, ―the rest of you guys fall out for two hours, and you twenty I want to go in this church‖, and, basically, what it was is that we were the type of people they wanted and in the building there were like five or six stations and they said, ―Would you like to volunteer for ―green beret‖, would you like to volunteer for warrant flight officer, would you like to volunteer for OCS?‖ 6:10 Every one of these you had to extend another year on your service, and all of us are saying, ―You got to be crazy‖. Well, hindsight is, I should have taken one of those opportunities, because it would have been instead of just being another grunt, gone into Vietnam and come back, you had the opportunity, but the potential of spending the minimum of a year to two years in Vietnam was a little bit daunting when, like I said, they have just taken you from your family and shaved your head, and now they’re offering you this great deal? It didn’t sound like a good deal to me at that time. Interviewer: Some of those jobs can be pretty dangerous too. Yes, they should have, chopper pilot or like I said, ―green beret‖, OCS you’re going to be in charge of a company, as an officer, so yes, they would have been on difficult—but, 4 �they had selected the best, they knew they had picked the people they wanted to offer this to. 7:02 I was one of them and I said, ―Naw, enough is enough guys, I’m going to stick with what I got‖. Interviewer: How did they handle that, did they just accept that and let you go on? Yup, they just said, ―Okay, fall out‖, and you know, you walk through and you had to sit at each station and you had to listen to their speal and after you’ve done all of them, you had to make a decision before you left the room. They said, ―Okay, you’ve got to make a decision if you’re going to accept one of these opportunities, and if not, you can fall back out with the rest of them‖, and that’s what I did. Interviewer: As you were going through basic training, how easy, or hard, was it for you to adjust to military life and military discipline? I wasn’t hard for me because my upbringing was to respect and ―Yes sir, no sir‖, that sort of thing, so for me it was an easy transition. You had to—you didn’t make waves, and I didn’t make waves, I said, ―Yes sir, no sir‖, and I did what I had to make it as easy as I could for myself. 8:05 It was tough, it was—it wasn’t fun, but it was one of those things, I made it as easy as I could for myself, so for me it wasn’t an easy thing to do, it was hard. Interviewer: Now, the people around you, how did they respond to it? A lot of them would—we had people who just went crazy type of thing, literally, and fought it the whole way. ―I’m not going to do this; I’m not going to do that‖, where I said, ―If that’s what you say, I’m going to do that‖. So, there were a lot of them that had a hard time and they were doing more push-ups and they were getting in more trouble for 5 �the things they were doing, because they weren’t, as we say, following the leader. I didn’t want to make waves; I wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible. 9:00 Interviewer: What proportion of them made it through that process? I would say that we probably had—I’m going to say ninety percent. You’d lose a few and they would be shipped off and brought back to another basic training unit, but it was—they beat you all down, but most of them were enough where they would say, ―Hey, we’ll make it‖. And before you know it we all looked alike, we all acted alike, because they had done what they were supposed to do, treat us as one person, you know. Interviewer: How long was the basic training, at that point? I think basic training was thirteen weeks from start to finish, and then we graduated from basic training. Interviewer: What was the next step? You’d get—they’d call—you’d have a big formation and then you’d be given your orders, and they would call out people’s names and where you were going. The minute they said where you were going and what was happening. I was called out and it was Fort Polk, Louisiana jungle training, done deal, I wasn’t going to be a cook, I wasn’t going to be a clerk, I knew what I was going to be going to do. 10:04 My best friend that went in, from Grandville, graduated with me, and went in with me, he was made a clerk and he was a clerk in Fort Knox for his two years. I was unlucky and ended up being in the infantry. Well, going to Fort Polk for jungle training. Interviewer: So, what was the facility at Fort Polk like? The facilities weren’t much different than the facilities at Fort Knox, because we were in the old wood barracks at Fort Knox that had a half an inch of paint on them, because 6 �every time a new unit came in you had to paint the barracks. They were fire traps. Fort Polk was very similar, but Fort Polk had the heat, the humidity that Fort Knox did not have. Fort Knox was Michigan climate, that type, and we didn’t have as much of a problem. You got down to Fort Polk and it was hot and wet, and it was nasty. 11:01 Interviewer: Well, now you’re in Louisiana in the summer too. Yeah, and I’m in the summer in Louisiana, exactly right, so it was snakes and scorpions and all that kind of monkey business. One of the incidents I had was we were on bivouac, which was seven days of being in—it’s in the woods there, it’s not the jungle, but it was trying to create the same effect. My one—they paired you up in pairs and then you had to go through this bivouac, which was seven days of trying to stay alive in the jungle, or in the woods. Well, he was a smoker and it was hot and it was nasty, and what we had to do is we had to dig a foxhole, and it had to be shoulder height to the tallest person, so he was probably eight or nine inches shorter than me, so he had to put a little step in there for himself, because it had to be shoulder height so he could fire his weapon. It was hot and he said, ―I got to have a cigarette‖, so he went to jump down in this foxhole that we had dug the previous day, well a rattlesnake had burrowed its self into the wall of the foxhole and when he jumped in there he came out faster than he went in. 12:12 We didn’t have weapons that had live ammo, we had a flash pressure on the end, so we had to call somebody over and they dug this rattlesnake out and it was a big long rattlesnake, and they shot and killed the rattlesnake, and I’m saying, ―This is ridiculous‖. Every morning when we got up you had to shake out your boots and check your clothes because scorpions would get into your boots and you slide your foot in. We had one man, he was exhausted after a long hike with a pack and he just fell down and didn’t look 7 �where he was setting and sat right on a scorpion. Then we had to do a compass course where you had to triangulate a compass course, my partner with me, he’d been breaking brush for probably two third s of it and he said, ―Okay, will you take over?‖ The minute I took over we walk into this swampy area and here’s this big old water moccasin six or eight feet in front of us and we said, ―We’re going to change and we’re not going to go where it tells us to go‖. 13:07 We got what we were supposed to get, but another one of those incidences where it wasn’t as easy as people think it might have been, it was tough, it was real tough. Interviewer: What sorts of people did they have training you? People that had come back from Vietnam, and that’s something that I took and I learned from, because they had been there, they had survived, and they came back to train us, and they knew very well what you were going to be going through. They knew where you were going, because they knew where you had been stationed for your AIT training. Interviewer: Where there particular tricks, or pieces of advice they gave you? Things they told you that wound up being useful? I didn’t pick up on any, I got more in the first ten days in Vietnam than I ever got from them. I just—I had gotten my body in shape because of the heat and humidity. 14:05 There wasn’t an ounce of fat on my body at that time, because you couldn’t have it, so I did that, and I learned that you had to be observant, had to be observant of every little thing, and that’s what we learned in the compass course and everything we did. You had to be observant of what you were doing at all times, it wasn’t just go out and do it and come back, you had to be observant of every aspect of it. 8 �Interviewer: But there were just the specifics of surviving in a particular area of Vietnam you got to that was going to be dependent on what you saw there. Right, when you got to say, Cam Ranh Bay, they would give you a basic understanding of what was going to go in in Vietnam, but when you got to your unit, now you’re getting specifics about what territory and what the unit is facing, so every little thing, you had to be sharp and pick up on it, and make sure you remembered what they said, and that’s the only way you were going to come home alive in my opinion. 15:09 Interviewer: So, you get through the AIT, and was that about thirteen weeks? That was ten weeks. Interviewer: so, at this point do you get to go home before they ship you over? Yeah, you get a thirty day leave. When you graduate from AIT you’ve got your orders and my orders were to Vietnam, so once you got those orders you got, say, a thirty day pass where I got to go home. That was a tough thirty days any way you look at it. When you know you’re going into where you may never come home and you’ve got thirty days with your family, with your friends, or whatever, it’s a tough time, I mean, it’s a tough thirty days. For me, I was an old person at that time. I’m twenty-one years old and most guys that were going through that experience were nineteen by the time they were going over. But it was still tough; it was still a tough thing to go through. 16:05 And you live fast and hard and whatever you can do for that month and then that last day, man, it’s over. Interviewer: Now, do you have to get yourself out to the point of embarkation? Yeah, like I said, I had somebody take me to the airport. Basically, you were given orders where and given a ticket and the time when you have to leave. 9 �Interviewer: So, where did you ship out of? I shipped—basically what happened is I flew out of Grand Rapids and went into, had to report to Seattle, and right out of Seattle is where you got your orders and everything was—they gave you everything you needed to go overseas. Interviewer: Then do you go out of Fort Lewis or out of the Seattle airport? The Seattle airport, Fort Lewis, yeah, because it was a military transport and we flew in—from Fort Lewis and basically they did—they were supposed to do a complete check of you at Fort Lewis and make sure you’re ready for in country. 17:09 Then they loaded you on a transport, and basically it was a commercial plane, Flying Tiger, or whatever it was called, it normally would fly cargo, but they turned them into—to get people over and it wasn’t TWA or Pan Am, it was a Flying Tiger, some transport line. Interviewer: Did they give you all of the preparation and stuff, before you left, that they were supposed to? No, basically, when I left Fort Polk, Louisiana they gave us a month’s supply of malaria pills. You were supposed to take a white pill six days a week and an orange pill one day a week. The orange pill gave you the runs and, basically, what you were supposed to do is your body was supposed to be getting you ready for what you were going to be in Vietnam and that’s the potential for malaria. 18:03 When you landed in Seattle, they were supposed to do a blood—draw blood and look at it and make sure that your body had taken and accepted that malaria pill. They didn’t do that, they may have taken the blood, they didn’t review it and look at it enough because my body was rejecting the malaria pills, and I never should have been sent to Vietnam. They should have found that 10 �in Seattle and said, ―You can’t go because your body is rejecting the malaria pill‖, and sent me back home, but that was not done. Interviewer: Then they fly you to Vietnam, and did they fly you directly from Fort Lewis to Vietnam? No, we flew into Guam and they landed on the runway and all you saw in Guam was B52s on the runway, and they told us to get off at the hangar and we could go in and use the restrooms in the hangar. Then they refueled the plane and then we flew into Yokota Air Force Base in Japan and landed. 19:03 The same thing, we flew into Japan and you could see all the bright lights and all that, and they let us go into this hangar and get a candy bar or go to the bathroom and they refueled, and then we went from Yokota Air Force Base in Japan right into Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: Do you remember what time of day you got in? It was, from what I can remember, we left Tokyo late, it was dark, so we got in early, early in the morning in Vietnam. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got off the plane? Flying in you couldn’t see much because it’s not like a big lit city. Cam Ranh Bay was a lit city and it looked just like a regular air base, you know, when we flew in. The first sense was the heat and humidity when we got off the plane. It was nothing like what I had experienced in Louisiana, just nothing, it was just that much more heat and humidity. Other than that--that was the first thing I remember. 20:00 I think then the real anxiety set in, ―Were in trouble now‖, we knew where we were at and I knew exactly what was 11 �happening and I said, ―Boy, this is going to be a long year‖, and for me it the start of a long year for a young person. I mean, even at twenty-one, I was still young. Interviewer: What did they do with you once you got off the plane? They basically—they give you the information to what you—make sure your papers and orders are right, and then they , for two or three days, they go through some—they show you what a claymore mine is going to do, and how a booby trap is going to set up, yada, yada, and all these kinds of things, just basic training of Vietnam, heat humidity and what you may have to—what you may be confronted with. 21:00 They also talk about drugs, they talk about those kind of things, but then it’s a matter of—you’re probably there three, four , or five days at the most. Interviewer: Did they also talk to you about how to deal with the civilian population or anything like that? They may have, but I—it was the furthest thing from my mind. The most important thing was just to get home safe, so four or five days of that and they sent you to your unit, basically. They would divide up and once they got five or six guys they—whether it was a plane, a C-130, or a helicopter, it depended on how far you were going and they would fly you to your new unit. Interviewer: What unit do you get assigned to? I was assigned to the 1st Infantry Division, or as everybody knows, ―The Big Red One‖. Interviewer: And what particular unit within it were you assigned to? I was assigned to Alpha Company of the 21st Infantry and we were out of Dok Chang. 22:02 And basically, the area of operations for that unit was south east and north east of Saigon, and what terrain we were in would be rice paddies, Michelin rubber plantation 12 �[this was west of Saigon], which was the largest rubber plantation and the Saigon River, was, basically, what we worked out of, or what terrain we saw. Interviewer: Now was your company, when you joined your company, was it on a firebase, was it on a hill, or what? What happens is you go into your unit's firebase and you set there, you might be there two or three days getting acclimated, getting your gear, because at this point with everything you’ve done, you have not got a weapon, you don’t have your backpack, you don’t have anything you need to survive in the jungle, so they’ve given you all that stuff and then you go out on a resupply chopper, with the units. 23:03 Sometimes your unit would be coming back into the firebase and you’d join the unit then and sometimes you’d go out in a chopper, and I went in a chopper, a resupply chopper. Basically, every three or four days they’d get resupplied with C rations, and water, so you’d go out on a resupply chopper, and that’s what I did. I was a new guy in a new uniform getting off that chopper out in the jungle. Interviewer: Do you remember anything about that chopper ride? I was scary, it was scary because you knew what you were going into, but you didn’t know what you were going into. You knew that you were going to be that new guy that you hope will be alive the next day, let alone for a year. But, basically, got off the chopper and the unit, at the time, you know, a typical unit of about sixty five men and they were in a perimeter formation and I was assigned to November platoon. 24:00 I went over there, met the lieutenant and the first sergeant, and then I was assigned to a squad that I was going to be a member of. 13 �Interviewer: About how many men were in a platoon and a squad when you joined them? The platoon was probably about twenty or twenty-five men, so each squad was about a five man squad, five or six man squad. It was a small—there were only three platoons in a company and each company had, like I said, sixty-five or seventy men, so it was about a twenty, or twenty-five man platoon. Interviewer: Those are sort of-- significantly below paper strength for those units, which should have been a lot larger. Yeah, typically, that’s what we were—every unit I was ever with was about that strength and for me, that was just the way we operated, but as the new guy you were always pushed out in front, because the old guys didn’t want to take chances, so they always push you out in front, but it was a real learning experience, no doubt about it. Interviewer: Now, How long was it before you actually went out? Did you join them in the field at that point? 25:00 Yeah, I joined them later in the field, and typically the missions that we worked on in the 1st Infantry Division were seven to ten day missions. We’d go out and do search and destroy and, basically, looking for the enemy. We would move anywhere from two to four miles a day in the heat and humidity. Our pack was—a normal infantry pack weighed fifty pounds and that is because you had to carry claymore mines, hand grenades, five or six hand grenades, a couple claymore mines, I—typically the 1st Infantry Division we had to carry ten eighteen round magazines for our M-16, everybody had to carry at least one smoke grenade, besides all your food, a shovel, because we dug foxholes every night, so we had a shovel and trenching tool, and then some personal 14 �items. 26:01 You could carry letter writing stuff, or I carried a camera, I had letter writing things and not much personal. Anything you had to have in your pack, if it didn’t—if it wasn’t waterproof, you had to wrap it in plastic otherwise it was gone instantly. I remember going over there and my folks had gotten me a Bulova watch for graduation from high school and I wore my Bulova watch over there, and it was a beautiful watch, I loved the watch, water resistant watch, and it was ruined in less than a month. The humidity, it just ruined that watch, but other than that, that’s your thing, you had this pack you had to carry. We got up every morning, you made your meal, you packed your pack and then we’d move out for another mission, and basically we were given missions where we wanted to check out another trail or another—and you’d have to move two to four miles. 27:00 Some of it was canopy jungle where you were breaking brush just trying to get through and other times it was a little more open and you could move quicker, but because you never knew where there were booby traps and all those other dangers, you couldn’t move fast, so we didn’t move very fast, but we still had to cover a lot of distance. Interviewer: Now, when you moved, did you do it normally kind of single file spread out, or did you go across? The 1st Infantry Division was an organized unit; they’d already been in country, probably, five or six years. The 1st Infantry Division never walked on a trail, a hard trail, we all walked a file on each side of that trail, is how we moved into the jungle. One of those incidents where--I had problems with animals in Vietnam--we were breaking brush and a deer was spooked in between the two columns. It was close to where I was and it came running across and then it came up to another man, turned around, and had a full head of 15 �stream back at me, because we were probably fifty feet apart. 28:05 Well, it hit me and deer over there are about the size of a good size Collie, well, it hit me below the knees and I’ve got a weapon and a fifty pound pack, and it flipped me right over, the weapon went flying, and I could not believe how hard that deer had hit me, but it wanted to get out. So, that’s the way the 1st Infantry did, we just worked on either side of a trail, never on a trail, because we knew the trails were always booby trapped, we just knew they were booby trapped. Interviewer: Would there be booby traps, also in the jungle? Not, not as often, because a lot of units used the trails. We got to a point in the 1st Infantry Division where, even then, we’d hit some booby traps and we started getting frustrated, so we started setting our own booby traps. People don’t realize if you get frustrated enough losing men, losing legs and that, you’re going to do something to stop that. 29:04 So, we started setting out our own booby traps, and what we did was take a Claymore mine, a battery from one of our radios, we took a clothespin with a spring on it, we took the plastic straight part of a spoon and cut off the spoon part, and, basically, run trip wire into that plastic spoon, we put the Claymores facing the trail, you could put two claymores on one battery, you’d hitch them and run it to the battery. The battery would have a wire coming off, the wire would go on either side of the clothespin, then you’d put the plastic spoon between it, the clothespin would be tied to the tree and the other part of the trip wire would be tied to the tree and the minute that trip wire was pulled the claymores would blow. So, what we were doing, we’d send out a five man ambush position every night. 30:02 The CP, the company area would set up in a perimeter and they’d send out these five man ambush positions, and what we would do then, we’d put 16 �booby traps on either side of the trail that we were ambushing, and we’d set the booby traps. The friendlies could move from dusk to dawn, so the minute it got dark we knew we could set our booby traps out, but we had to retrieve them in the morning before it got light. We were very successful with them and I can guarantee it saved a lot of army guys lives, because we weren’t walking into theirs and they started getting frustrated with the 1st Infantry Division because we were blowing a lot of them away with our own booby traps. Interviewer: So, they were using the trails at night? They used them at night, yes. See, again, the Vietnamese, the VC and the NVA, they moved at night. We were afraid of the night, we didn’t move at night, we didn’t do anything at night, you didn’t move at night, and that’s what it was all about. 31:02 Interviewer: Now, when you were encamped at night would they attack you one way or another? Yes, yes, like, if, if, like I said—previously we had times where we weren’t setting out booby traps, they would walk into our kill zone, because every night we’d dig foxholes. Our five man ambush position, we would dig three foxholes facing the trail, putting out our Claymore mines, and then we would normally have one man in a foxhole, awake, at all times, and basically, if they walked into the kill zone we’d blow them away. Like I said, I was lucky enough to have a successful unit. We had a five man squad that I was part of. We’d set up on a trail that was coming right out of the Cambodian border, it was a hard packed trail and we had a five man squad, dug out foxholes, set up, had ten NVA, which NVA , they're just as equipped as we are. 32:02 If they walked into our kill zone we blew our claymores, every man fired an eighteen round magazine, our machine 17 �gunner ran a fifty round belt, and we threw thirty-five hand grenades before we went out to the kill zone, and we never took a round in. When we went out to the kill zone we had ten dead NVA. We needed a resupply of ammunition and Claymores, and hand grenades, so we were surprised to see a Major come in his little Loch to bring our resupplies and he was just dumbfounded. He said, ―My God you guys are great, this is wonderful‖, yada, yada, yada, gave us our hand grenades and ammo and then what we did, we threw the bodies in our foxholes and covered them up with a little dirt, and moved down the trail another fifty or a hundred feet. The next night we didn’t have anything happen, but the following night we had twelve of them walk into the kill zone, and we blew all twelve of them away and never took a round. Then again, the same thing happened, the Major came down to resupply us and he said, ―I don’t know what else to say, this is out— you guys, in three days killed twenty-two NVA‖, and we said, ―Well, that’s our job‖, you know. 33:10 But it’s one of those things that—I was in a great unit and I learned to be a great infantry guy because of that, If I’d been with another unit ―pff‖, too many others had poor structure. Interviewer: Were the other platoons in the company pretty good as far as you could tell? They all were, they all were, every one of them was—we just happened to be on the right trail at the right time and we happened to be doing the right thing here and there, but the whole unit was a good unit. I was lucky enough to be with a great, great bunch of guys and we didn’t lose a lot of men. Yeah, we had guys wounded and hurt, but we didn’t lose a lot of men, we lost some, but we didn’t lose a lot. 18 �Interviewer: When you joined the unit did anybody make any effort to kind of explain to you kind of how things worked and what you were going to have to do? 34:03 Yeah, you did, but typically somebody would feel sorry for you because you were the new guy staring off into no man’s land not knowing what you were doing, and somebody would take you under their wing and say, you gotta do this and you gotta do that, don’t do this, don’t do that. I had an issue one time where I had a dive watch on and toward the end I realized the only thing that’s going to survive the rain and being wet all the time was a dive watch. Well, I bought a dive watch at the PX and didn’t realize that the illumination was pretty bright, and I was moving my arm around and one of the guys said to me, ―You better put your hand—or cover that up , because somebody could see that and know where you’re at‖, so –but no, the guys were—they tried to help you along and it didn’t take long, it didn’t take a couple of months in the field and you were a seasoned veteran as they say. 35:00 Interviewer: You also mentioned that when you got there, there was a tendency to take the new guy and put him out in the front. Oh yeah, point squad, you’d be in point squad, no doubt. Interviewer: But, would you actually walk point in the point squad when you started? You wouldn’t walk point, maybe that first week, but you’d be on the point squad and the point squad—there were guys out there going to get—if anything’s going to happen, they’re the ones that are going to get it. 19 �Interviewer: Now, that period when you’re with the 1st Infantry Division, what kind of enemy activity was going on? Was it just the small patrol stuff? Yeah, we had a lot of VC patrols. The Michelin Rubber Plantation location was, basically, the straw hat, black pajama VC’s and we had a lot of them, and we were setting up ambushes all over the Michelin Rubber Plantation. They knew that they weren’t supposed to be moving at night and that’s when we were doing our best, and we were taking a lot of enemy kills. We were just, we were good at it, there was no doubt about it, and we knew how to set up a good position, so it was one of—from my perspective the terrain was as good as it could be for what you were doing. 36:10 There was some other terrain that you couldn’t imagine that no way you could see the enemy, but we were in areas where you could see them pretty well. One person always had a starlight scope in our platoon, so we could see the movement—you could hear the movement, you know, you, basically, pull guard two or three times a night, two hours a shift, and you wouldn’t get—you might get three hours of sleep, and trust me it wasn’t sound sleep. You were— even a twig breaking and you were wide awake, your senses were so honed in the jungle that I came back, I couldn’t believe how quick, a fire alarm could go off and I wouldn’t wake up, but over there, any little sound and you were awake instantly, and that’s just because your body knew what it had to do and man, you got sharp, you got real sharp. 37:10 Interviewer: Now, were there a lot of civilians and things in the area you were patrolling? Yeah, there were, and during the day, so—and we knew that at night they were telling the VC where we were at. We just knew that was happening, because during the day they 20 �were your friends and at night they weren’t, it was just one of those issues that—you knew that, you’d see them, when you were walking you’d see them, but you knew that was—you just knew that. The kids, the adults, you knew that somebody was coming in their house and threatening their family and they’re going to tell them where the unit is, so there’s no doubt about it. But, I had some, we had—I was one of these—come from this little west Michigan area and brought up in a strong Christian Reform background, and I had so many things happen to me that let me know that there was a reason that I survived Vietnam. 38:13 There was a reason that I came home, there was a reason for all of that, because on one incident—every time we came into the fire support base, we came in for three days, two to three days, come in and get a hot meal, clean shower, and go out. In the field they would resupply us every three or four days with C rations and water, mainly, and then they’d bring out mail. The clothes would come in a—they would bring out three duffle bags of clothes for each platoon. The platoon leader—each squad would send over a man to pick up five shirts, five pants, five pair of socks and underwear. It didn’t matter what size, you just grabbed five of each and you gave them to your guys. 39:01 It didn’t matter if it was an extra-large or a small, it didn’t matter, and that’s what you grabbed out of that bag. It wasn’t very stylish, but it was clean from that perspective, every three or four days you’d at least get some clean clothes, because you were sweating so bad in the heat and humidity, and then you’d move in the—you’d do your thing for seven to ten days, so you might get resupplied only once. Once in a while they would bring out a hot meal from the rear. If not a hot meal, we learned that C rations, they were nasty, so what we had to do was, we had to spice them up, so a lot of guys used Tobasco sauce and other things, but we learned to heat them because some of them—I found one 21 �that was packed in 1959, and I was there in 1969, so that had been in a can for ten years. We, basically, used C-4 plastic explosives to heat our C rations and what we did is, every guy got a chunk of plastic explosive and, basically, you’d pinch off a piece and you’d roll it into about a half inch ball and you’d light it. 40:10 It would heat your food instantly and really hot. You’d use it for your cocoa in the mornings, because seventyfive degrees in the morning was cold, you were cold and you wanted something warm, and your meal, like I said, you could heat your meals with a C-4, and that was one of the things, at least you had a meal that was a little bit warm. One of those items that they would bring out, and the water, you had to use a purification tablet in all of your canteens. I was a sweater, so I carried nine one quart canteens on my back, that’s a lot of weight, but I needed that to move, I needed that for two or three days of moving. You had to use purification tablets in your canteens and they made it taste like shit, I don’t care what anybody says, it—they were terrible. 41:04 So, what I did, I had said, in my letters home, I’d said, ―look guys, can you send me packs of Kool Aid, every letter you write me send me Kool Aid‖, so what I was doing, I was putting Kool Aid in my canteens, and at least it would take some of that nasty taste of the purification tablet away, but you had to do what you had to do. So, from that perspective, like I say, we’d eat, we’d move, then some missions lasted longer, we’d go into the rear, we’d get a hot meal, clean clothes, shower, we could go to the mess hall and get meals, they had movies, you could have beer, and then they would call out another mission and you’d go out in the field. Basically, we would—normally we would come—they would bring us from the airstrip to the basecamp again in a deuce and a half truck, which is a two and a half ton army military truck, they’d load ten or twelve guys in the back of the truck, bring 22 �them to the basecamp and then you’d get cleaned up. 42:04 The barracks there in the base camp, fire support base, whatever you call it, were basically, wood side half way up, elevated off the ground, the top half would be screens and they would have a metal roof. Inside would be cots, and when you’d come in for your two or three days of stand down, is what we called it, you’d , basically, throw your gear at a cot and that’s what you’d sleep on, would be a cot, and then, like I said, you’d get resupplied. They would resupply us, they’d bring a pallet of C rations and say, ―Okay guys, we’re going on a mission and you better pack three or four days of meals, make sure you have your grenades, and make sure you have ammo‖. One time we were standing around a fifty-five gallon drum, we had, we were burning—C rations come in a cardboard box and they have a lot of wrappers and papers around some of the stuff and you’d throw them—so, we had this fifty-five gallon drum, it was burning, we were throwing our trash in it, it was cold, it was—getting ready for a mission, so it was early in the morning. 43:10 We’re all standing around it getting warm, like I said, seventy-five degrees is cold, anybody tell you that it’s not, they’re crazy. When it’s a hundred and ten during the day, the forty degree temperature drop, your body has a hard time adjusting. There were thirteen of us standing around that trash can, we don’t know for sure whether somebody had thrown some C ration cans, we didn’t know if somebody in one of these boxes, one of their hand grenades had gotten in a box, but it went in the drum. Well, all of a sudden the drum exploded and this fifty-five gallon drum turned into shrapnel. Of the thirteen guys that were getting ready to go out in the field on a new mission, there were only eleven of us that went out that day; no, two of us that went out, eleven of them didn’t go out that day. The guys on both sides of me were bleeding out of their ears and had shrapnel all over 23 �them. 44:00 Another guy across from us had nothing. Me and him, we checked our uniforms and I said, ―No, I didn’t get a scratch‖, and I knew somebody was watching out for me. So, of that day, there were only two of us that went out of thirteen guys. Interviewer: Now, were you going with the rest of the company? Yeah, we just blended in with another unit until these guys, whether they came back or whether their wounds were healed, most of them were just shrapnel and bleeding out of the ears from the concussion of this fifty-five gallon drum exploding, but it wasn’t just the enemy that we were fighting, it was all these other things that you had to be aware of. We would load up on the deuce and a half, after resupply, after getting ready for a new mission, we’d go out on the airstrip and typically they would dump us on the airstrip, we would set on our packs until the choppers came in, the choppers would come in on, typically, four or five choppers per lift is what we called them and each lift would hold, roughly, a platoon. 45:01 At the time we were loading the choppers our artillery at the fire support base was supporting—was already firing our LZ, our landing zone. Typically, the chopper pilots would have been given directions saying, ―When you take off from the airbase you have to bank left, and then do a big circle and by the time you get there the LZ will have stopped firing‖. I was on the first lift this time, our chopper pilot took off, banked right, banked right in front of our artillery, and the guns were firing. We heard a round go by the chopper, it was so close we swore we almost got shot down by our own artillery, the chopper pilot turned, landed on the airstrip and walked away from that chopper. He knew that he almost got himself, his co-pilot, the two door gunners and a five man crew almost shot himself down, so we had to get on another 24 �chopper and go out in the field that time. 46:01 So, you had to—everything was against you, it wasn’t that everything was working for you. Interviewer: You mentioned when you were with the 1st Division there were different environments you worked in. You were talking about the rubber plantation, and what was it—when you were on the Saigon River, what were you doing there? Well, the Saigon River was—some of them moved on these little sampans and little boats, so we had to keep an eye on the river, so we would ambush along—typically along the side of the bank of a river there’s a trail and some of them would move real close to the river and some would move on the river, so we had to set up on the river. But, the problem of being set up on the river, the Saigon River or any river in a wet humid climate, the mosquitoes were horrendous. I was on an ambush position one night where I’m supposed to be alert, listening and looking for the enemy, and the mosquitoes were just driving me crazy buzzing around my ears was just so bad. 47:02 I put my poncho on, tightened the poncho around my face, I stuck cigarette butts in my ears, I light a cigarette and was blowing the smoke around, you couldn’t see the lit cigarette because I was cupping it and I was blowing smoke around trying to keep these mosquitoes from driving me crazy. I’m on guard duty and I’m supposed to be alert, so, you know, and that’s when I came down, I know that’s when I came down with malaria for the first time was the operation around the Saigon River, they were just so thick, the mosquitoes. Interviewer: You didn’t have insect repellent or did you have it and it didn’t work? I think they liked it, I think they liked the insect repellent, and that’s why a lot of the guys—you’d always see them in the movies; the guys have insect repellent in the band on 25 �their helmets. We used it, but I just didn’t—I think they understood what it was and they didn’t care. They were bad, the mosquitoes, but it was one of those things and I know that’s when I got malaria the first time. 48:00 Interviewer: How much effect did the malaria have on you during that time in Vietnam? For me it was, again like I said, I should have never gone to Vietnam, but when I was dusted off the first time by the medevac chopper and taken to the 25th Evac Hospital they packed me in ice for almost twelve hours to get my temperature down. It was over a hundred and four for almost twenty four hours and they—the doctor came to see me and they had an intravenous bottle in me for four days and I went through twelve bottles and I had a scar on my arm for years after where that bottle had been in there for so long. When the doctor came to talk to me he said, ―Well, your body didn’t have this malaria in it like it should have, but now that you got it we’re just going to keep you here‖, and that’s another one of those army tricks, let’s keep you here, you’ve already done it, let’s do it, but that’s just what it was and it was a tough one. 49:04 Typically, for me the first bout of malaria, I was in the hospital for just over a week and probably lost five or six pounds, I mean, you just sweat it off, it’s just what it is. Interviewer: Now, could they control it after that, did they give you any treatment for it? No, no, after that, once it’s in your body it stays in your body the rest of your life I’ve been told and you can have reoccurrences at any time. I’ve been very lucky and I’ve only had one when I came home, but I had other incidences in Vietnam that affected me, because I had malaria four times and the last time I had it, I had two different kinds of 26 �malaria at the same time. They evacuated me to Cam Ranh Bay , to the hospital and I spent twenty-one days in the hospital and lost twenty pounds, so it’s just one of those issues, you just—again, the enemy isn’t the only thing that you got to get home. 50:04 Interviewer: You were also doing some of your patrolling in the rice paddies. Did you do things differently in the rice paddies? Well, the problem with the rice paddies is, you knew you had to walk on the rice paddies dykes, or berms, whatever you want to call them and you knew that the enemy was going to booby trap them, and to walk in the rice paddies—you’re wet enough, I mean, typically—when I first got there I wore socks in my boots and like everybody else at the time, nobody told me anything different, but your feet are wet so much that you get sores between the wrinkles. You know how, when your skin gets wrinkly and your feet are wrinkly so much that they develop sores between the wrinkles and you can just start pulling the skin off, it’s wet so much. So, what I found that worked for me was I just didn’t wear socks when I was moving through, most of the time during the day, and I would put the socks on at night. 51:00 Then the water would run in the boots and drain out quicker, it wouldn’t hold the moisture into your boots and your feet get nasty. That’s just another one of those—you can be a casualty that way, your feet get so bad that—or bamboo poisoning, everything we were breaking brush was bamboo. We had one of our guys that—typically in the 1st Infantry Division we couldn’t roll our sleeves up, they didn’t want us to and this guy rolled his sleeves up. Well, he got scratches from bamboo poisoning and all of a sudden his arms just swelled up and they were just weeping of this pus from the bamboo poisoning, just from the leaves of the bamboo tree. Each person is different, like in the 1st Infantry Division you had to wear steel pot and you had to keep 27 �your sleeves down. Other units that I saw, they were wearing booty caps, they would roll their sleeves up and things were different, it was just one of those years and the unit I was with. Interviewer: Overall the unit you were with, and that company, had pretty good morale and discipline and so forth? 52:00 Yeah, the whole time I was with the 1st Infantry Division it was phenomenal, and this was the late sixties, because we were looking from October—September 15th is when I got to Vietnam, so September 15th until into May I was with the 1st Infantry Division and they were a phenomenal unit. They had a great area, knew what they were doing and didn’t cut corners, didn’t cut corners, never—we had an operation where they told us one time, like I said, you don’t move at night. The enemy moves at night and we were scared of the night. We had an operation, we’d set up, we were all set and ready to go, and they called in a—we had orders to move two miles and it was dark. So, what they did, they called in a C-130 gunship, ―Puff the Magic Dragon‖, whatever they want to call it. 53:02 Well, it was popping illumination flares as the unit moved, but we had to move, like I said, about two miles and it took us, oh shoot, it took us over two hours, two and a half hours, to move the whole unit. We just got ready to—and how we moved is we had a guy, I wouldn’t have done it, we had a guy put a strobe light, tape it to the top of his weapon, and he had to hold the weapons, so he had to stay in the center of the unit so the gunship knew where to fly. Nobody does dumb things, but that’s what we had to do, so we get ready, we’ve got to the position they want us to ambush and we’re just getting ready to call the gunship off station and we took a green tracer into our perimeter. Well, green tracers, the enemies had green tracers, we had red tracers, and we took a green 28 �tracer. Well, the pilot had seen the green tracer too, or his crew, or somebody, and said, ―I’ll bed you down for the night‖. 54:00 Well, the mini-guns that they use were those electric mini-guns and they had three of them on this gunship. Well, typically there’s a tracer, four rounds and another tracer, well, these guns put out six thousand rounds a minute. He made two revolutions around us and never let up and all we had was these three red streaks coming into the ground. It was deafening, you had to cover your ears the noise was so loud, but we didn’t have any problems with the enemy that night, because it was just—it was the best thing that ever happened. You knew that you were going to be safe that night. They knew, because we were set up, we were able to set up, we went out the next morning and it looked like somebody had just taken and shredded the jungle like a donut around us and that was impressive, it was thoroughly impressive. Interviewer: Now, when you were doing these patrols with the 1st Infantry Division, did you ever run into any kind of significant amount of opposition? Did you get into any big fire fights? 55:03 We got pinned down one time and the unit was moving in a forward motion and the enemy had like a horseshoe shape and they pinned us in pretty good. This is another one of those—we knew we were I trouble, we knew we needed help, so we called in an F-4 for support. Well, the F-4 has a 50 caliber machine gun, a huge round, and basically, the pilot was on station and he said, ―Hey, pop smoke to show us where the front of the line is‖, we popped smoke, he did a couple of revolutions and he could see where we were located, so he made himself a mental picture of where we were and said, ―Okay, pop smoke where you want me to bring in the rounds‖, so somebody threw a smoke grenade way into where the enemy was. The problem was, the only way he could get in—we 29 �were in an area where he had to come over our heads to get the enemy. 56:01 Well, that’s not the right way to do it, you should come in from the side, but he couldn’t do that. So, we popped the smoke and he came in, and all we could hear on his radio, because I’m monitoring the radio, is ―Oh shit‖. He brought in the rounds too soon, not to the level where anybody got hurt, but somebody could have got hurt. He made his sweep in and he annihilated the enemy, literally. I don’t care what you say, he did what he was supposed to do and now we weren’t pinned down and we were able to move out of there. The shells are coming out of those guns so fast that I had a shell casing hit me on the arm and it burnt right through instantly, third degree burns instantly right on there. I couldn’t fling it off and it just stuck, but I knew, hey guys, that those guys out there had the other end of that round going at them. It was one of those issues that you say, ―Hey, I like what we got working with these F-4 jets‖, and this and that and the other thing. 57:00 We were able to move out of there without—and then get into a better position where we could take the enemy, and we moved them out, but they had set up on us and we walked into it. It was one of those things that we didn’t—nobody was wounded or killed, but we had guys get wounded. Nobody got anything from this F-4, but we had gotten some wounded from the enemy when they threw the ambush on us. I got that shell round and the medic wanted to put me in for a purple heart and I said, ―Don’t even go there, don’t even go there guys, come on‖. Interviewer: When you ran into them, were they just mostly using small arms? Yeah, most of the stuff we hit was RPG rocket launchers or AK-47’s, because the 1st Infantry Division, the majority of the units we hit were VC and a lot of times the VC had one weapon for three guys, they didn’t all have weapons. The NVA, now that’s a 30 �different story, the NVA were just as well equipped as we were, they had all the same— every man carried a weapon. 58:00 The VC didn’t do that, they might have one weapon for every three, or one weapon for every two. One guy falls and one guy picks it up and—but, they can still do a lot of damage, a lot of harassment, a lot of this, a lot of that, it’s one of those things that—what they used to do, we’d be moving, they would fire on us, we’d sit down and that would slow us up and then we’d get up and move again, then they’d fire on us again, and just harassment and that’s what we knew they were doing. That was slowing us down from our goal and that’s what they did. Interviewer: Now, you’re with the 1st Division for over half of your year in Vietnam. Over the course of that time, how much turnover was there in company and in the platoon? Typically, typically—when I got there you’d lose two or three guys, let’s say every week or every other week, whether back to the hospital or their time was up, because we weren’t like—everybody didn’t go over at one time. 59:06 I flew in, so there was always somebody leaving and there was always somebody coming in, at all times. It just seemed like there was always a new man and there was always somebody getting ready to be, as we called them, ―short‖. Interviewer: Did your officers also rotate out? The officers only had to have a six month tour, they weren’t a one year tour, so yeah, they were in and out quite often and that’s why, a lot of times, guys in the unit and sergeants were a lot better at knowing what was going on than this new officer that came in every six months. There were officers that were doing stupid things because the OCS had trained them one way, but it wasn’t the way the jungle allowed it to be, so a lot of 31 �times the first sergeant, the platoon sergeant, he was running the damn place, trust me, it wasn’t the Lieutenant a lot of times. The Lieutenant was normally—if he was a new guy he didn’t’ know what was going on. 00:00 He would have to go to his sergeant and way, ―What do we do there, what do we need to do there?‖ Interviewer: Was that what the smart ones did? Oh yeah, the smart ones did that and the dumb ones came over with that, ―I’m better than the rest of them‖, and they’re the ones that always go home in a bag, because that isn’t the way it is. You got to learn from the guys that have been there, from the guys on the ground. Interviewer: You weren’t taking a whole lot of casualties, so did the replacement system, basically, work for you? Yeah Interviewer: You come in individually; you get oriented and get experience. Yeah, typically, like I said, somebody would take you under their wing and try to help you get through that first week, first month, or whatever, so you could start counting those days down, and it worked well. I was that type, it worked for me, and I wanted to make it work for the next person that came in to me, so—but, it was—we worked, and we were hitting a lot of—we started hitting a lot of basecamps, and what a basecamp is, is just a whole bunker complex, and we started to hit a lot of those. 1:01 What they did is, they wanted somebody to be trained on a flamethrower, so they took me and said, ―Hey, we want you to be trained on the flamethrower. ―Great, wonderful, just what I want to do‖, so they took me in the rear, gave me a flamethrower and said, ―Okay’. Well, then the training officer said, he said, ―Look, you have, the first lever shoots the foam out 32 �there, and then the back lever is the igniter, that ignites it‖. He said, ―Now, it’s got a kick, so you gotta lean into it‖. Well, I’d been there a couple of months and I thought I was a ―bad ass‖, ―What is he talking about, I can do this’, and when I fired that doggone thing on the range for the first time, it went up on a forty-five degree angle and burnt all the hair off my arms, and I thought, ―Well, I should have leaned into it like he said‖, and I didn’t. What they did then, every time we’d hit a base camp, a bunker complex, if it was a smaller one, somebody would throw hand grenades in it and then I would torch it with the flame thrower before somebody would go in the bunker. 2:02 I didn’t want to go in the bunker, but I would do that. It was one of those things, I liked what we had, the flame thrower, and we had one of them where we were moving into an area and we walked into a battalion size base camp, it was a huge base camp and one of the biggest base camps they’d ever found in the area of operation we were in. We backed off and we called in a B-52 bomb strike and said, ―Let’s do this one up right‖. They brought in a hundred thousand-pounders on two different runs, so basically, the bomber would drop two hundred thousand-pound rounds, so we thought, ―Okay, this is going to be good‖. We backed off; I’m going to guess, about three quarters of a mile. Now, our artillery FO said, ―We’re way too close‖. He said, ―I want you guys to get down on your bellies, I want you pack on your back, I want your helmet on your head, and get behind something that won’t move, a tree or whatever you can find‖. 3:07 I got behind this six foot ant hill and I thought, ―Cool, no problem‖, well, when that bomber made its—I was on the radio, so I could hear the bomber say, ―Bombs away‖. When the ground started to shake the vibration from those first bombs was unbelievable, it just bounced and when they stopped I was about twenty feet from the ant hill, so I bounced across the ground with 33 �this fifty pound pack on my back and this cloud of dust had just come over me, covered us. The bomber made a second run and did the same thing. I said, ―I might as well get behind the ant hill, it’s all I can do‖, it was the same thing, and when we went to check that area, we walked into craters that were fifty feet across, twenty feet deep and were already filled up with water, and there was nothing, it looked like the surface of the moon, not triple canopy jungle. 4:04 I mean, it just shredded it, and see, there again, I’m glad I’m on the U.S. side when they got bombers like that, that was really cool. Interviewer: When you would run into these base camps were they mostly not occupied? Oh no, you’d normally—if we were doing our thing right, which we did a lot of, when we moved in we could smell the rice cooking. So, we knew they were there and if they stayed to fight, fine, but a lot of times they would go out the back end, and then all we would do is blow up all the bunkers, seize the rice, or whatever and try to get rid of anything we could. Other times we found caches of weapon and ammo in the bunkers and we would just take them and have them flown back to the basecamp. Interviewer: Now, at a certain point in your tour you switch units. It wasn’t really that I wanted to switch units. 5:00 What happened is the 1st Infantry Division was one of the first units, in 1970, that Nixon said, ―Oh, I’m going to bring some people home‖, and they brought a flag and a few people home, but the 1st Infantry Division was one of the units that pulled out because they had been there the longest. Because I had six months left in country—most tours of duty were twelve months, and I got almost thirteen months, but we won’t talk about that. So, I had been with the 1st Infantry Division about seven months and now I only had six months left, so I was 34 �transferred to the 23rd Infantry Division, or the Americal. Now, I went to their base unit and the unit was already in the field, so they said, ―We’re going to fly you out to where the unit is working‖, and I said, ―Fine, that’s not a problem‖. I’d been in country seven months and I was a seasoned country veteran and I knew what I was doing. I flew in to where they were at and as soon as I get off the chopper, everybody, all these guys are yelling, ―New meat, new meat‖, because they thought you were just a new guy coming in from the states. 6:08 Well, the sergeant there, he knew better and he said, ―Guys, he’s got more time in country than any one of us‖. What happened, within about a month I was made sergeant, which means, now I’m in charge of a bunch, but the problem with the Americal Division—they walk down a hard trail single file, all the men, right down that trail and they’re walking into booby traps every day, every day. I couldn’t understand why they would pull out a unit that is such a great unit and had their shit in order, to throw in this unit that is so bad. So, I got there and once I made sergeant I said, ―Guys, we’re doing this wrong, we ought to be setting up our own booby traps‖, so then I started training guys to set up booby traps, we started doing that, so we weren’t walking into them all the time. 7:01 But, as a division, they were terrible. Before we even started to set up the booby traps, one of the second , or third, missions that I was on we were on— we’d been working—Americal was up in the central highlands, most of the op was in mountainous areas and that, but there were some rice paddies, and we’d been working in the lower lands and they wanted us to move up to the top of this mountain, and then they were going to take us off the top of the mountain and take us back to the basecamp for a three day stand down. We’re going up the mountain and we hit two booby traps. Three guys were wounded, so when we got to the top of the mountain we pretty much knew that 35 �everything up there, we better be careful because it’s—whether it’s in the trail or in the bushes, you better be careful because it’s going to be booby trapped. 8:00 We set up a perimeter where we set up guys around the perimeter. We didn’t have to dig foxholes because we knew we weren’t going to stay. They were just going to bring in choppers and take us off, but they put up guards around the outside of this mountain, so now you got sixty-five guys—I had been in the middle of the unit and we’d set up the mortar platoon and set their mortars, and some guy had an M-79 grenade vest that had, probably, twenty-five hand grenades, grenades that he shoots from his little gun, on the vest very close to where my pack was setting. Well, I’d been setting in my pack reading some letters and just, you know, and my squad was in the guard position. Choppers were coming in, let’s say, within an hour, and one of my guys came up to me and said, ―Ron, I’d like to read my letter from home and I’d like to have a cigarette‖, because you couldn’t have a cigarette on the outside, so I said, ―Fine, I’ll go to the bunker‖, and I no sooner got over the crest of the ridge when the whole mountain blew up. 9:02 When that happened we had fourteen killed and thirty-two wounded off one booby trap. It was the largest booby trap that was ever tripped in Vietnam at the time. What had happened, some guy had walked through one of the bushes, he shouldn’t have, and they had booby trapped one of our artillery rounds and it was in one of the bushes. The bush was very close to the mortar platoon, all the mortars, and this grenade vest. When it went off, it went off as one big explosion; it wasn’t a series of explosions. When the dust cleared, I came up to where my pack was and the man was that setting on the pack took a piece of shrapnel in the chest, it went right straight through him and because there were so many wounded, he bled to death on this pack. 10:02 This guy had just showed me his 36 �girlfriend’s picture, just said, ―Hey, I want to read my letter and write a letter, but I want to have a cigarette‖, and I had said, ―Fine‖. Those are the things that you know should have never happened. They took fifteen of us off the top of that mountain and they put us in an area in the center of the base camp that had, I would guess, a fifteen foot high chain link fence around these three or four barracks. They put the fifteen of us in there and said, ―We’re going to bring beer in there ―, because they knew we all had some major problems because of what we’d just seen. So, they brought in—they gave us a meal, we had beer, we just didn’t have to do anything. What they were doing is, they took five or ten men from each other unit in the battalion brought them into that area and then they brought us back up to company strength and they we became another company going back out in the field. 11:02 Again, by this time I was a sergeant, I’d made sergeant then and they said, ―Okay‖, so now I was starting to train guys to set up booby traps and do this and that and the other thing. The unit became a better unit, but it still would never match up to what I had come from. We had some—they did things differently and it wasn’t an exciting time for me. Interviewer: Did that unit have, sort of, morale or discipline issues that were different from the 1st? Yeah, a lot of them, a lot of guys would ―sham‖, as we would call it, where they would say, ―I don’t feel good‖, at sick call and this and that. A lot of guys smoked dope and smoking—the first night in the field I literally wanted to break my weapon over the head of a guy, because he was supposed to be on guard duty and he’d been smoking pot and he fell asleep. I said, ―Guys, you just don’t do that, you just don’t do that‖. 12:02 The first time I went out as squad leader, I said, I said, ―Look, you’re going to carry extra flares 37 �and you’re going to carry this and you’re going to carry that, and I want you to carry an extra battery, because you’ve got to be in communication at all times. If you get ambushed, you need good communication‖, so we’re on our three, or four, or five days out on a mission and we get fired upon. I want to be able to call artillery and bring it in to where it’s supposed to be, so I want to put a new battery in. I asked this guy for the new battery and he said, ―Oh, I threw that out a couple of days ago, it was too heavy‖. Now, that’s when you say to this guy, ―I don’t want you in my platoon again, or my squad, or whatever, I don’t want you in this field‖, so a lot of that kind of stuff started to happen with –these guys were just—they wanted to get out of the field, they didn’t want to be part of what was going on, so it was not a unit where you got out there, you were proud to be in that unit. 13:04 All these guys wanted to do was get to the rear, ―I’ve got a cut, I’ve got to get to a medic‖, and that was just wrong. I could see that because I had come from a unit that everybody wanted to be there and wanted to help get the other guy home, but they didn’t care. I think that had a lot to do with the amount of drugs, later on in the war, that I happened to be there at the time when it was just starting to really take off. I never smoked a day in my life, I could smell it from a mile away, I knew when they were doing it in a bunker, I’d get them in the next morning and I’d say, ―Guys, it’s not what you’re supposed to be doing, I’ll tell the lieutenant, or I’ll tell the Captain, but I’m going tell them if you keep it up , you do that when you’re in the rear, you don’t do it in the field‖, and that was a real struggle, when it wasn’t that you were just fighting the enemy, now you’ve got guys in your unit that are supposed to be there to help you. 14:01 Interviewer: Did you eventually establish a certain amount of rapport, or credibility? 38 �You did, but I never felt comfortable with that in the unit. I don’t know if it was the training, I don’t know if it was just the way, the lackadaisical way they were , there’s no way I could ever feel totally comfortable with that. I got comfortable with a few and that was what I liked, but they were a strange bunch, and it was the whole mentality of the whole unit, and maybe it was because of the chain of command, I just don’t know, I just—I’ve never figured out why that unit was such a bad unit. Like I said, when that bomb went off I was dumbfounded, I was devastated, because at that point in time, you know, life had changed, because it was—I had been working the whole nine months, nine months, at this time, to stay alive, and I said, ―Now, I gotta get out of this place‖. 15:06 ―This place is going to get me if I don’t‖. I was lucky, I’d trained a five man squad to set the ambushes and set the booby traps and they got to be really good, because after ten months in country, ten months of fighting them, I got a job as a battalion draftsman and chief driver for a Major. Within a week of me getting that job, my five man squad got credit for thirteen kills on an ambush and booby traps, so I know that I did something right. But, as a battalion chief, you know, draftsman, and chief driver for this Major, basically, we had a bunker on top of our fire support base with a big chain link fence around it, and that’s was his headquarters and there was a huge map of our area of operation and it was covered in plastic and I had, I think, five different colored pencils that I used and I had to plot each unit where they were. 16:08 I had to plot temperatures, hills, anything that the Major might have to tell a General when he came up for a briefing, so that was my job, everyday keeping up with that. Across from this was my bunker that I lived in. Well, one of the first nights in the bunker, now I got this great job, I got hot meals every day, a clean uniform every day; I’m not dodging bullets and all 39 �that. So, I’m sleeping on my cot, in the bunker, and it was a pretty nice bunker because it had been there for a few years and the guys had really made it nice. I fell asleep and normally I sleep on my stomach, so I fell asleep that night and I had a sensation that there was something wet on my finger, so I woke up and I saw this rat taking off, and this rat had been licking me. 17:03 This rat was a pretty good size rat, and I thought, ―Oh, boy‖, so from that point on whenever I was in my bunker, I slept on my back and had my arms crossed on my chest, because I didn’t want that to happen again. But, as a Jeep driver, I had to drive the Major from firebase to firebase, where he would give briefings, or he would get briefings, as the Major for the unit. On one of these incidents, we were going in between two mountain ridges, we went right in the middle of them, and all we heard was this AK-47 open up on us, and it went AKKKK, I mean it was just—you could hear it and this Major said to me, ―Kick it in the ass Dykstra‖, and man, I nailed that Jeep and away we went. We knew the rounds were close and he did too, and he said, when we got back to our basecamp, he said, ―I want you to check the Jeep over, because I know those rounds were close‖. 18:01 Well, the Jeep I drove, originally they had a name on the front of it, well, the kids were telling the VC what the name was and they were shooting at it because they knew there was a Major in there, so we had—when I got there they had already started painting over names, because they knew that was a bad thing to do. Behind the seats, on the Jeep, was a radio, and the radio was—it was a good size radio and the bottom of the antenna was probably a two and a half or three inch diameter antenna and the antenna was probably twelve feet tall and it had one on each side. So, I get back to the basecamp and I check the Jeep over and the antenna on my side has taken a round right through the base, and that antenna is no more than two feet behind me. 40 �Now, I know, if that VC had led, as we call it, led you further, but he didn’t lead us right for the speed of the vehicle, so he opened up on us at the antenna instead of opening up on us at the driver, that’s how close that one was. 19:03 I said, ―My God‖, my Jeep, I had, because I was short, I had ten months in country and I knew—I doubled—most guys put sandbags behind the seat, down the center and one sandbag under your feet, well, I had double of everything, my Jeep squatted, it was just—because I just didn’t want anything to come up from the bottom, so that was another one of those close incidents. So, once again I know that there was a reason that I was able to accomplish my task and come home safely. Interviewer: Now, while you were assigned to that Major, you’re now living on a base camp, did they have Vietnamese civilians working on the base camp? Yeah, the civilians would clean, a lot of them, they would use them for cleaning and some of them they would even use them for doing the dishes and cleaning, so you didn’t have to pull KP and things like that. They were around there all the time and the civilians, you just didn’t trust them. 20:00 When I was driving the Jeep we had somebody in our battalion where a little kid had taken a hand grenade, he wrapped the hand grenade with rubber bands, really, really tight, and he pulled the pin and he opened the gas cap on a Jeep and he shoved the grenade in the gas tank and shut the gas cap. Well, it took a while, but the gas ate away that rubber band and blew the jeep sky high. Now, this was a seven, eight or nine year old kid that did this. We had kids that we found with these little homemade weapons, and what they were doing, they would take a block of wood, they would take an M-14 [round], which was a sniper round, they’d take an M14 and they would rubber band that on top of this block of wood, they’d cut off the back 41 �of that M-14. Now, our M-16 round will fit right inside that , they would put a smoke grenade trigger on the back of it and all they would do was pull back and they popped, and these little kids were using them as little guns. 21:03 You just didn’t know, you didn’t know who was friendly and who was foe. Interviewer: Now, would they get all the Vietnamese off the base at night? Yeah, they would have to leave. They would normally leave about an hour-- they would start to leave about an hour before it got dark. They would have to be in their homes, and then anything that moved was free game, anything that moved you’d shoot on it, and that’s what it was. Interviewer: Was there a town or a village in the area close by? Yes, typically when you had a fire support base you had a couple of villages, one on each side of it, or something like that, because that was just the way it was set up, that’s just the way it was. In every one of my incidents, that’s how it was set up. Interviewer: Would the men go into the villages during the day or that kind of thing? During the day they could, if they were off they could go into the villages and buy souvenirs. I had a portrait down of me by this Vietnamese artist and the guy was a phenomenal artist and I had a portrait done, oh, eleven by fourteen and a gorgeous portrait. 22:01 It’s something I’ll always remember, just because you got that young face in that portrait, young, innocent face in the portrait, but you could do that , you could buy souvenirs. I bought my photo album from there; there were just any odds and ends that you could use. Interviewer: Were there issues with crime or prostitution, or things like that? 42 �Oh yeah, but I hear about it and I see it in movies. I never was in the big cities, I never saw that. Interviewer: It wasn’t going on in those villages? Yeah, it was but, from my perspective I was always in the jungle or something, but yeah, at lot of times if you were—if you were pulling road security on Highway One, in The Big Red One, it was the main highway that runs through Vietnam form north to south, if you were pulling road security, and a lot of guys would do it on these amphibious type of vehicle, or track vehicle, and basically, a track vehicle would pull off on the shoulder and the infantry would set a position out there. 23:06 Typically, the prostitutes would come up in little Honda 50s, they’d have somebody driving the little Honda 50, they’d get off the back and they’d go service the guys out in the bush or in the tank, and that’s just the way it was, that’s just the way it was. Interviewer: Now, another one of the standard issues or things that were brought up about Vietnam is the racial issues. Did you see much tension? Yeah, well, I had some experiences that—I had—and I hate to use the term, but I’m going to use it the way I use to use it. I had some black guys in my unit that were the worst guys and I just couldn’t get them out of the unit fast enough, and I had other guys in my unit that I could depend my life on, but the percentage of those that you could depend your life on, in my experience was pretty small, pretty small, most of them were in the rear smoking dope, heroin, or whatever. 24:04 That’s all I ever saw, I didn’t—but they always used them as—that’s what I saw. The ones in the field, we had them, there was no doubt about it they were great, wonderful, but a lot of them like the guy that threw the battery away, he was black, and I just—those are the type of things that can get 43 �people killed and I’m not going to put up with that, and I didn’t. I didn’t want to, but if you’re forced to have them in your unit there’s nothing you can do about it. You do the best you can, but the problem is, you find them sleeping on guard, you find them doing those things and you say, ―This is going to get somebody killed‖, so it was—I saw them more in the rear, blacks in the rear, that was drugs, and drugs, and drugs, and drugs, and that’s just the way it was. Maybe I was blinded to the rest of it. Interviewer: Was that kind of situation worse in Americal than it was in the 1st Division? Yeah, I saw it in the 1st Infantry Division, but it was worse in Americal. 25:05 One of the guys in the Americal, they did an article in Time magazine in like seventy—mid seventies, and here he is standing there in front of one of these places smoking it, and he was with me in the unit. Time magazine, so yeah, I remember that one well, I remember well and what that was, but from, and again, I spent virtually ten months in the jungle and then I spent two months as a Jeep driver for a Major, with a nice bunker, I had my own music and I did my own thing and I didn’t get involved with the other. It happened, and it happened in the bunker—I didn’t have any part of that, I just stayed away from it. I didn’t come from Detroit or Chicago where they were doing it before they got there, and they were going to do it when they got back. 26:02 Grandville did do that, it just didn’t happen in the Grandville area. Interviewer: The statistics that I’m seen showed, essentially, that you had about the same rate of drug use at home as you had in Vietnam. But it was so evident there that—here you didn’t notice it as much, but there, it—little kids were selling you the damn dope for nothing, I mean, it didn’t cost you nothing. 44 �When we came in from the field , and this is the honest to God truth, even in the 1st Infantry Division, when we came in from the field, there would be, say, ten or twelve of us in the back of a deuce and a half, and they would get three or four joints going around the back of the duce and a half as we were going in, these guys were taking the edge off, because now they said they could take the edge off, and they would pass it around and anybody could take a hit off of it, going into the basecamp, and that’s just the way it was. And you could do that, you could do that for two or three days, you could drink beer if you wanted to do that for two or three days, but that’s all because you have to be right back in that—you just had to be so sharp from that point on, afterwards though. 27:08 Interviewer: During the course of your tour there, did you get R&R at any point, or leave time? Yeah, I took R&R in Hawaii and it was—again, I had just a little over nine months, I took seven days of R&R in Hawaii, had a great time, the weather was wonderful, but I knew what I was going back to. I hadn’t gotten my rear job yet as the driver for the Major, so I knew I was going back in the field, so you try to live and do as much as you can in seven days in Hawaii, knowing that may be the last days that you’re going to see that type of thing, you may never come home, so you spend a lot of money, it costs you a fortune, costs you, as infantry guy combat pay, the whole shoot’n match was two hundred and eighty seven dollars a month. 28:02 Now, you think about who wants to put their life on the line, every day, for two hundred and eighty seven dollars a month? I don’t think so. So, go to Hawaii, it costs you a fortune, costs you a thousand dollars between the hotel and the flight and all the rest of—getting somebody there, it didn’t cost you to get there, but it cost somebody else to get there, so all that, it was an expensive thing, but 45 �it was worthwhile. You get rejuvenated and made sure you had a good idea of what you were fighting for, what you wanted to go home to, and that’s what it was all about, so I had a great seven days, came back and in literally a month, I got my job as a Jeep driver. Interviewer: You mentioned that you were supposed to be there for twelve months and you wound up being there closer to thirteen. How did that work? What happened is, about the time I got my job in the rear—well, a little before that, again I found out that the army was offering a five drop of you came back from Vietnam with less than a hundred and fifty days on your tour. 29:04 So, I had—if I extended twentyone days, I’d come back and land in Seattle with a hundred and forty nine days left in country, my tour of duty. So, I thought, ―I don’t want to be‖—I knew what I was going to be doing, I knew they were going to take me and take me to Fort Polk or Fort Knox and they were going to want me to yell and scream at these young eighteen and nineteen year old kids, and I knew where they were going and I didn’t want to do that. I knew I was good, I could help them, but I just didn’t want to do that. So, I extended for twentyone days and I was, in the big picture, I was lucky, I didn’t realize it, I was lucky, I had twelve months in country, and I came down with malaria for the fourth time. The fourth time, I had two different malarias at the same time. I went to Cam Ranh Bay and I lost twenty pounds or twenty-one pounds in twenty days. 30:01 in the hospital they wanted to send me to Tokyo and then send me home, but I knew that if I went to Tolko, I’d spend a month in Tokyo and then they’d send me to a hospital in the states and I’d spend a month there and by then I’d been home a long time ago. I called the Major , I’d been in the hospital, at this time, about seventeen days, I called the Major and I said, ―Guys, you gotta get me outta here. They’re going to send me to Tokyo and I’ve only got ten days 46 �left on my tour, why don’t you just see of you can get the papers and have them send me back to the company area?‖ The Major did, I was sent back to the company area, when I got back I had seven days left in country. The guys in the bunker wanted to celebrate that I’d come back and they knew I was leaving, so they mixed me up rum and coke in a glass about this big. Now, I was not a drinker until I came back from Vietnam, there I wasn’t, I could smell it that far away. 31:03 Now, I drank two of those and when I woke up I had five days left in country. Now, I’d lost two days of my life, but I knew—the Major came down and said, ―Dykstra, it’s good to see you up and around, we thought we lost you there‖, and I said, ―Yeah‖. He said, ―I don’t want you to leave this bunker, I’ll have all the meals brought in to you, and you start getting your paperwork in order so you can get out of here. I’ll have my Jeep take you to the airstrip and get you home safe‖, and I said, ―Okay‖. The Major was cool in the bigger picture and how I knew that from the time I worked with him, he was an enlisted man that had been in the army for seven, eight, nine years and decided, ―Hey, I’m going to make this a career‖. He went to OCS, so he’s been down in the—with the grunts, he’s been down with the PFC’s and the rest of them, he knew it, so he was a cool Major. He wasn’t one of these Majors that had their nose in the air, he was a cool guy. 32:00 I like him for that and he treated me great, so it took me more time than I thought to get my papers and get—you’ve got to get everything in order, you gotta get your, everything, you gotta have your uniform halfway decent, you gotta this that and the other thing. You gotta have your papers, you gotta have a haircut, and you gotta do all those things. The company, they’re going to control some of it. They don’t want you looking like a rag bag leaving, they don’t want that, they’re not going to let that happen, so you did all those things. Well, the problem I had was the last 47 �two or three days before I was supposed to leave country the monsoon rains started again, because I’d gone through the monsoons in the 1st Infantry, now I’m going through the monsoons at the end of this tour and it was terrible, everything is socked in, nothing can fly, no choppers can fly. Well, the only way I was getting from my fire support base to Can Ranh Bay, or wherever I was going, was by chopper or C-130. 33:00 Well, nothing was flying. So, they decided that there were so many of us that had to get out of there that they put us in a deuce and a half and they sandbagged the duce and a half, they reissued us weapons, they had a gunship, a Cobra gunship, go over us and they took this truck and we trucked all the way to Cam Ranh Bay, because they had to get us out of there, which was wonderful. So, we get to Cam Ranh Bay, we get on that plane and that’s the best thing that’s ever happened to you in your life, when you’re going to leave. You hate to say it, because you’ve left all these other people, but I was lucky enough to leave some guys that knew what they were doing and they all came home safe, and they got credit for these kills and they were all great guys. So, I land in Seattle, now in Seattle they’re backed up because nobody could fly out of Vietnam for two or three days. Now, they’ve set themselves a goal to get everybody out in one day. Now, you get into Seattle, they’ve got to make sure your papers are in order, you gotta get orders cut to whereever, whether you’re going to be re-stationed to another unit in the states. 34:01 You get haircuts, they do a physical, they have to fit you in dress greens, fitted, with all the ribbons and badges and all the bells and whistles on it, and then you can go. Well, by the time they got done sending us to the Seattle Tacoma Airport for our flight home it was late, so I was able to make the last flight to Chicago, but I was going to miss the last flight to Grand Rapids. In Seattle I called my parents and I said, ―Here’s what’s 48 �happening, I’m home, I’m getting ready to fly out of Seattle, but I’m going to have to spend the first night in Chicago, in the airport, because I can’t get that last flight to Grand Rapids. I’ll see you the next morning‖, and they said, ―Fine‖. I didn’t realize at the time that my grandmother was visiting my aunt in Valparaiso and forty –five minutes from the airport. 35:06 Well, I’ve got two little cousins that I was sending illumination parachutes, hand grenade pins, I’d been sending them for the whole time I was over there, every letter I would send my aunt. My uncle was a professor at Valparaiso, so he’s the one I used to tell him what the war was about and what was happening. The real truth, what I was seeing in the jungle and what he was hearing about what was happening. So, I was always sending my cousins, these little kids, I was always sending them things in my letters. So, I get off the airplane, expecting just to walk to my gate and then I was going to sleep in the airport, and here’s my two little cousins holding up this little sign, ―WELCOME HOME RON‖. Holy mackerel and it was about ten or ten thirtyish when I got there. Now, these kids, at the time, were probably, I’m going to guess, six and eight, just little kids. 36:01 So, we—we sat there and we all cried—we sat there and we talked, and talked, and talked and it was almost two in the morning when I said to my aunt and my grandmother, ―You gotta get the little kids home. In another four or five hours I’m going to be getting a plane, you go do your thing‖, so, they left and then I sat in the airport with this—just excited, because now I know—got on the plane the next morning at seven thirty in the morning, landed in Grand Rapids, because there’s an hour difference, I landed about nine thirty in Grand Rapids. I got off and my whole family was there. I hadn’t driven a car in thirteen months and I said, ―Hey, I want to drive home‖, and they said, ―Fine‖, so I drive home and I’m about a half a mile from home, I 49 �get off the highway and I make a left-hand turn, and I get pulled over by a Grand Rapids cop. 37:00 Now, when I left, I could legally make a left- hand turn going up the hill, Michigan Street Hill, you could make a left going up that hill. Now, while I was gone, they had made that an illegal turn. Now, this was a young cop and he pulled me over and he can see I’m still in my uniform, and I tried to explain that to him, that I—I said, ―Look, this was a legal turn, I’m sorry, I just got back a half hour ago from Vietnam‖. He didn’t care, wrote me a ticket and said, ―If you don’t agree with it you can fight it‖. Now, this is my first day home, you know, and I thought, ―this isn’t the way it’s going to end‖, so three or four weeks later I went to court and the judge asked me to explain why I was there and I said, ―I got this ticket for making an illegal left turn‖, and I explained the story the it was legal, the guy pulled me over, I tried to explain to him, I’m in uniform and I’d just got back from Vietnam. 38:01 This judge just went ballistic on this officer. He said to the officer, ―I want to see you in my chambers after court‖, and he said, ―Mr. Dykstra I want to thank you and I feel so sorry that this has happened to you, I want to thank you for your service to our country and for our freedom‖, and yada, yada, and he said, ―I just don’t know what else to say to you, ―court dismissed‖’. I thought, ―Now the war’s over finally‖, but that’s just—it wasn’t an easy thing, from day one until the last day, it was a struggle the whole—in my opinion, for mine, it was a struggle for nineteen months, and thirteen of it happened to be in Vietnam. It was a long road, and when I came home I was a different person. Like I said, I have an identical twin brother that literally, the first time I was medevaced out of the field, my twin brother was crying in the basement. 39:07 My mother came down and said, ―What’s wrong?‖ And my twin brother said, ―Something is wrong with Ron‖. Well they got a call from the Red Cross 50 �that I’d been medevaced out, nothing major, but they got the call. Now, I’m in the field one day and my leg is just killing me, and the medic’s saying, ―What did you do? How did you hurt yourself?‖ I said, ―I don’t know, it’s just driving me crazy‖. Well, I find out from a letter, that my twin brother had gotten third degree burns from a grease fire, on his leg. Oh, this is weird stuff--I’m in the Seattle airport, I buy a pair of sunglasses and I think, ―Yeah, these are great‖, and I get off the plane in Grand Rapids, and he’s got on the exact same pair of glasses, so I know that him and I are identical, but from that point on we have not been identical. 40:02 Before that we were, every thought, when I’d start to say something, he’s going to say the same thing, but it didn’t happen after that, his life went one way and mine went the other, and it’s got to do with—it may not have to do with the military, but it had to do with Vietnam, I can guarantee that, it changed my life. Interviewer: How do you characterize that change? I had-- to go to the faucet and turn on a glass of water, to flush a toilet, I had, I had seen third world poverty. I just loved what I had and what was here for me, it was like—you just respect—I respected everything about the U.S. Grandville, stupid little Grandville, I respected it because it was a lot better than where I’d been, what I had seen, I mean, I’ll tell you it was. 41:01 From my perspective, yeah, it was totally, totally—and that’s what I think changed me. It wasn’t the war as much as what I appreciated and what I , you know, simpler things in life that mean more to me than they did before I went—I took them for granted. Interviewer: How easy, or hard, was the readjustment to civilian life? It was, it was—for me, at first, it was a little difficult, not a lot, but it was a little difficult. My language was terrible, everything I said was a swear word. I mean, it was—I had to 51 �watch what I said, because I was still—I came back and was living at home, and at that point it was a strange, strange thing. 42:00 I had an incident where my roommate in college, at Ferris, he was my roommate for two years and lived in Detroit, and I’d been home about a couple of weeks and I made arrangements to go and visit him. I decided to take the bus, because I didn’t want to drive that long trip, so I took the Greyhound to Detroit. His fiancée picked me up, and he and I were close for two years, really close, and I wrote him letters while I was in Vietnam too. We went out to celebrate that first night back with him, and we went to this little bar. He brought his fiancée with us, because we wanted her as the designated driver, and all she was drinking was an orange drink, and he and I were drinking pitchers of beer. I got--well, we both had a great time because I was telling him the stories and just enjoying life and being back with him and seeing him again. 43:07 So, we go out to the parking lot and the only thing we can think is that the bar had called, because there was a policeman across the street—we didn’t notice it when we got in our car, but he was across the street and watched us leave the bar. I was sitting in the front seat and my roommate was in the back seat and his fiancée was driving. We get to the first red light and the cop pulls up next to us and says, ―I want you to pull over when the light turns green, and you, (he’s pointing right at me) you, stay in the car‖. ―What did I do?‖ I know I was drunk, but still—so, we pull over, he comes up to the car, he opens the door, he yanks me out and takes me fifteen or twenty feet out into the middle of this field, and he—young cop, there’s a young and an older cop, and he’s yelling and screaming, and my roommate tries to get out of the car and he goes, ―You, stay in that car‖. 44:06 Well, the older cop finally came over and I’m saying, ―Yes, sir, no sir, I don’t understand why you pulled us over‖, I said, ―I just got 52 �back from Vietnam not too long ago and I just saw my roommate for the first time in a long time. We’ve brought his fiancée along so she could drive, what did we do?‖ Well, he thought I gave him an obscene gesture when I got out of the bar, he thought I flipped him off. Well, I hadn’t, and the older cop—the younger cop was egging me on because he wants to throw me in jail, and the older cop finally says, ―Fine’, and he could see that I wasn’t going to go there. I was still being very, ―Yes sir, no sir, I didn’t do that sir, I don’t understand this‖, and that’s the way I was and they finally let me go, but again, the adjustment, it was a little tougher. My best friend in Vietnam, a young guy that I trained three months before I left, he came back in about January or February and I got back on October 7th, 45:12 he was going to get married to his high school sweetheart, so I’d gotten a letter and I’d written to him while he was there. So, I went to his wedding and it was so great to see him, just to see what had happened and how he had done, and how the rest of the guys had done, but I lost touch with that young man, you always do, you always say you’re gonna, but you never stay in touch with them. But, you finally say, ―Hey, I’m home‖, and you’re home, he’s home and you say it’s over, but it’s never over. I got married about—I got married in 1973, so just about three years after I got back and I would have the nightmares and my wife would find herself on the floor in the bedroom and not know why she’s gotten there and not know anything about it, but that’s just what it was. 46:03 I used to have them a lot, but I don’t have them anymore, but it was one of those things—back then I never knew what was—everybody says, ―Oh, these fireworks are going to set you off “, and I went for years, and years, and years, and never had it. One time the fireworks went off, I got a whiff of that, it sounded like artillery, and dog gone it, if it—you just never know. But, I’ve been—I’ve got a great family and I 53 �made the best of what I could make. I tried to make myself a better person from what I had seen and the people I came in contact with, and the people that were—like I said, there were people that didn’t make it back and I got involved with just wanting to make—I didn’t want all veterans to be made out to be the homeless, down and out’s and beards and all this, I didn’t want that, I tried to do what I could do as a professional. 47:03 And to put a best foot forward and say, ―They aren’t all like that, there are a lot of us that are really part of this community, part of this whatever‖, and that’s what’s top in my opinion, to this day, and why I wanted to do this is just because of that, for my kids, for the future of these kids, and for everybody else. I enjoyed, like I told you earlier, I enjoyed, when I was giving presentations to high school and college kids about the war, letting them know that guys—it wasn’t a war, but it was a war. There were a lot of people and here’s how it affected these people, here’s what they went through and here’s how they went through it, and that, to me, meant a lot, because at the time the book didn’t have a lot about Vietnam, a paragraph, a page, maybe. Interviewer: At this point, you brought along and made a kind of outline for yourself. Check your notes there. I tried to cover everything. 48:03 It’s one of those things, I’m going to keep this for myself just because of that. I’ve never written it down before in my life and to know this was coming, I said, ―I want to make sure I cover everything. I don’t want to forget something that’s an important part‖. In the hospital, every time, you could sign up to make a MARS call, and a MARS call was, basically, from ham operator to ham operator. So, the first time I was in the hospital, I was able, in a letter, tell them, ―I’m going to be making a MARS call on this date at this time‖, so I made the MARS call, and what a 54 �MARS call is, is I’d have to say, ―Hello, how’s everybody doing? Over‖, and then they would know that they could speak, because somebody in four different locations throughout the United States would have to flip a switch and let the other person talk. I had a grandmother, at the time that was — had never driven a car; she was my favorite, lived in Grandville, had the oldest house in Grandville and lived there her whole life. 49:02 She was part of a church group and prayers and all that. Well, she couldn’t be at the phone, so I sent a Panasonic tape player home, I had one, and I’d make tapes and then my grandma—but a lot of time, my younger brother, who’s ten years younger than me, he would tape the phone calls, so he could take them over to my grandmother’s and my grandmother could listen to the tapes and it would just cheer her up, you know how that goes. But, the MARS call was a neat thing and you could do them in base camp too, you could call back if you could set up a time, but you had to get on a list and you’d have to be there, and they’d give you say, fifteen minutes to make a phone call home. I was made the radio operator for the Lieutenant in the infantry, with the 1st Infantry Division, about a month or a month and a half after I got to the unit, so I was still just new, but I was made the RTO, which means radio operator, which was great. 50:03 But, that meant I had to carry an extra twenty-five pound radio on my back. I had to carry smoke grenades, illumination flares, and you had to be on the first chopper into every LZ. And every LZ, you didn’t know if it was going to be a hot LZ or not, but you had—normally you could be on the third lift, so it would be a secure LZ, but being the radio operator I had to be on the first lift of choppers going in, every time. Interviewer: RTOs were often targets weren’t they? 55 �Oh yeah, because they had that big antennae banging around, not a good thing, I did it with passion, I called in this, I called in that, and I made sure when he told me, gave me grid coordinates, I knew that I was given the right one, because I didn’t want call in artillery on our own zones, you know. This was interesting—I told you I had problems with animals. 51:01 Well, the deer was one, but the other one I had was—I had a five man squad that we’d—at the time I was part of a five man squad and we’d set up an ambush position away from the company area. We’d just set up and it sounded like the whole NVA army coming down the damn trail. I mean, it sounded—and I’m saying, ―Just—get ready, get ready, let’s blow our Claymores and fire‖. Well, just about the time we started firing our weapons after blowing the Claymores, we could hear the squealing of pigs. We’d blown a family of wild boars away, mama, papa, and five little ones. Blew them—but now that we’ve blown our ambush, the enemy knows where we are, we can’t reset up our ambush, so the whole night we had to stay awake, the whole night because we couldn’t—the next morning the company, the Captain and the Lieutenants from the other—they came up there and they put the pig between a pole, carried the pig back to the LZ where they were going to get resupplied, and the pig went back to basecamp and everybody had pig. We didn’t get it, but they had it. 52:03 One other time, set up in an ambush position, in the foxhole, I had just come off guard, which means I was laying behind the foxhole and all I could see were these green eyes, in the jungle, coming at me. I didn’t want to blow the ambush and I said, ― Quiet, quiet‖, and all of a sudden ―pppttt‖ , it was a black panther, a black panther went right over my back, so I say, ―Animals and me didn’t work real well, you know‖. We had fifteen missions in a row, in the 1st Infantry Division, where we’d come from wearing—coming in from the 56 �rear we’d had clean clothes and dry feet, and we had fifteen LZ’s in a row where it was wet, the choppers couldn’t set down, we had to jump out of the choppers, our feet were wet instantly, up to here or further, and you start out with wet feet, and we had fifteen of them in a row, because the ground over there was always wet, just always, always wet. 53:01 Had a time on the airstrip, we were going out—this one here is one you don’t want to hear about, but it happens. Two guys, high school buddies, drafted the same time, went to basic together, went to AIT together, went to Vietnam together, and they were assigned to the same unit, best of friends. We’d been resupplied, setting on the airstrip like we always do, setting on our packs just waiting for the choppers to come in. Their playing cowboys and Indians and one of them shot the other one right through the heart and he died instantly. The guy grabs his heart and he dies, and the other guy literally went insane. He just killed his best friend, but the M-16 became like a comb in your pocket, you took it for granted, it was there, it was loaded, it was always loaded, you didn’t—and that’s what happens, it was an accident. 54:01 Accidental shootings and deaths happened a lot in Vietnam, happened a lot, and while I happened to have the opportunity to see one ten feet away when it happened, because I watched the guy grab his heart and he just died, he died. You know, it’s—you just never know when your time is going to come. We came in for Christmas; we came in for Christmas on Christmas Eve and we were in for three or four days, we were lucky enough to be in, and a lot of times they don’t send your care packages out to the field to you, you open them when you get back to the basecamp. My grandmother had sent a case, a case of Jiffy Pop popcorn-Christmas Eve, so we had Christmas dinner in the mess hall, so Christmas day I gave everybody Jiffy Pop. 55:00 That night, the company air smelled like a popcorn factory 57 �and I thought, ―This is cool, this is so cool‖, and it—I love popcorn and it brought me back to—for almost minute, I could say, ―I’m in my living room having popcorn‖, you know. It just was a great thing and my grandmother did something so simple, but it meant so much to me and I’m sure to a lot of other people. I know I’ve covered most of it and I just want—there’s so—oh, we—when I was with the Americal Division, I was up in the mountainous area and we were up on top of a mountain and down in the valley we could see the VC, or the NVA, moving around, so we knew they were moving. We could see the South China Sea coastline from the top of our mountain. We heard there was a destroyer off station, so we called back to the rear and we said, ―Hey, can you contact the destroyer and see if they would like to fire their guns to help us clear this position?‖ 56:08 They came back to us and said, ―Yeah, the destroyers would love to test fire their guns‖, so we give them the grid coordinates and we want them to, basically, annihilate that grid. Now, we could not see the destroyer, but when the destroyer fired its guns, we could see the flash, and I go, ―Oh, this is cool‖, and when that round went over the top to go down in that valley, I swear to God they were throwing a Volkswagen through air, I mean it was just ―Crrrrrrr‖, again, B-52’s, destroyers, ―Puff the Magic Dragon‖, we had all the good stuff, there’s no reason to monkey around as long as we did. When you see it, you were right, it’s an impressive thing, it’s an impressive thing. 57:01 From my perspective, I’ve covered everything that in my notes I put down. Interviewer: There’s one other thing that kind of occurred to me. You were going to sort of talk about morale issues and that kind of stuff and another issue that comes up kind of late in the war, is the issue of fragging officers and that kind of stuff. 58 �We had a bad incident and it was the unit, 1st Infantry Division. I got there, and within about a month to a month and a half after I got there. The first sergeant, all the guy did was sit and read, he never came out in the field, he always had his clean and pressed clothes, so we came in and got off a deuce and a half from a ten, twelve, fourteen day mission, and he’d line us up in a formation and he’d say, ―I want all you guys to take a shower and get clean clothes and I want you all to get a haircut‖, and he was just, just brutal about that. 58:03 These guys, the next mission they come home dead, so somebody fragged him, they rolled one underneath, because again, these barracks that we were staying in were just raised off the ground a foot and a half, wood floors, wood sides with screens, and aluminum roof, and somebody just rolled a hand grenade underneath that and lucky it didn’t kill him, but at least it wounded him enough where he went back to the states and the guys didn’t have to put up with it. Don’t know who did it and nobody cared, because we didn’t need that kind of harassment, we didn’t need that kind of harassment. Interviewer: Was the guy a lifer, was he a long term service guy? Yeah, he’d already been in the military fifteen or eighteen years and this was probably his second or, maybe, his third tour, you just never knew, but he was just—he pushed the wrong button. You don’t mess with the guys that are keeping you in the rear, making the same money we’re making out in the jungle, and you’ve got a cot, you’ve got electricity, and you’ve got hot meals, you can go and get a beer every night, watch movies, and you’re going to mess with us? 59:08 That’s what happens, I mean, that’s what happens, and it was one of those incidents that I’d heard about them, but I remember that one, because it happened and luckily nobody was killed. At least it got him out of there. 59 �Guys would let their hair grow, and if they want to put up with that steel pot and that heat and humidity, let them grow their hair if that’s what they want, let them go, let them do their own thing. Interviewer: That’s a small thing. Did you shave when you were out in the field? Yeah, yeah, between brushing your teeth and shaving, you aint going to waste the water, guy, trust me, water’s too precious to you to do that, so, I mean—but I was twenty one and I didn’t have to shave until I was twenty five, or so, because nothing ever showed up anyway, you know, but other guys, yeah, I had one guy that could shave in the morning and by noon it looked like he needed a shave, but he carried the machine gun, so nobody messed with him. 00:04 Interviewer: Well, it makes for a very good story and you’ve done a very good job with it and I’d just like to close out here by thanking you for coming in and talking to me today. Like I said, it’s an important story, an important part of the story, just one of a small number of people and the big issue that I always look at is that one in every ten Vietnam veterans was combat infantry. Nine of those other guys that are Vietnam veterans, they were in the rear, they had great jobs, but they still made the same money, they still—and that’s one of those things that people say, ―Well, there were five million people that served in the war‖, yes, but there were only five hundred thousand that were Vietnam— that were infantry, the numbers are small guys that actually got CIB, the Combat Infantry Badge, a small number of the big picture. We all were there to do a job, we all did, and we were—yeah, it didn’t end like we wanted it to, but we did our best to make sure it ended right, so thank you very much. 1:09 60 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dykstra, Ronald (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dykstra, Ronald Description An account of the resource Ron Dykstra was born on July 6th, 1948 in Holland, Michigan. Following graduation from high school in Grandville, Michigan, Dykstra received his draft notice in 1968 and reported in 1969. After completing his basic training at Fort Knox in Kentucky and his AIT at Fort Polk in Louisiana, Dykstra deployed to Vietnam. Originally, Dykstra fought in Vietnam as a member of the 1st Infantry Division. However, when the 1st Infantry returned to the United States as part of President Nixon's downsizing, Dykstra still had time let on his tour, so he transferred to the Americal Division, where he served for the remainder of his tour. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-17 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DykstraR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4f6f9595709e54463e73622af63dcff3.jpg 542dc6e725d8f0eca85e2df155dde657 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_E016-0028a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1964-06 Title A name given to the resource Dylan and friends at Café Espresso Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of (left to right) Mason Hoffenberger, John Sebastian, Bob Dylan, and Victor Maymudes seated at a table at Café Espresso in Woodstock, New York. By Douglas R. Gilbert. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Dylan, Bob, 1941- Sebastian, John, 1944- Woodstock (N.Y.) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e9d58469f3dbcda7e71bed934653ca6.pdf d809108ab4f732216e5b207afa01290c PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Dylcia Noemi Pagán Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/15/2012 Biography and Description English Dylcia Pagán was born to Puerto Rican parents in 1946 at Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, New York City and raised in East Harlem. She became a child star, performing every week on NBC’s “Children’s Hour.” After losing her parents at the age of 20, she became an activist, participating in voter registration drives and working for the Community Development Agency (CDA) evaluating poverty programs throughout the City of New York. In 1969, Ms. Pagán decided to attend Brooklyn College where she co-founded the Puerto Rican Student Union that resulted in the formation of a student-controlled Puerto Rican Studies Department that is still in existence today. She continued a long career in media, becoming the first Puerto Rican woman television producer in New York City. Ms. Pagán has worked as a producer, writer, and filmmaker, developing investigative documentaries and children’s program on nearly every major television network. She also worked as the English editor for the city’s first bilingual daily newspaper, El Tiempo, and authored a popular daily column in that same paper. In 1978, Ms. Pagán was subpoenaed by a Grand Jury to testify in connection with the arrest of her companion, William Morales. At the time, she was three months pregnant with her son, Guillermo, and �she refused to testify. Sometime in 1979 she went underground with her son. She was arrested in 1980, charged with seditious conspiracy for fighting for the independence of Puerto Rico, and was sentenced to 63 years in prison. She was released from prison on September 10, 1999 after a long campaign in the United States, Puerto Rico, and internationally pressured President Bill Clinton to give she and nine of her co-defendants a Presidential Conditional Clemency. She lives and works in Puerto Rico. Spanish Dylcia Pagán nació a padres puertorriqueños en 1946 en Lincoln Hospital en los Bronx de Nueva York y creció en el East Harlem. Se hizo una estrella infantil siendo parte de “Children’s Hour” en NBC. A los 20 años perdió sus padres y se convirtió un activista, trabajando con registraciones de votes y también con la Community Development Agency (CDA) que evalúa programas de pobreza en Nueva York. En 1969, Señora Pagán decidió atender Brookly College donde ayudo a fundir el Puerto Rican Student Union que resulto con la formación de un Departamento de estudias puertorriqueñas que es controlado por los estudiantes (todavía existe hoy). Señora Pagán continuó una carera en la media de comunicación y fue la primera productora puertorriqueña en la ciudad de Nueva York. Trabajo como productora, escritora y cineasta desarrollando documentarias investigas y programas de niños en cada estación mayor de televisión. También trabajo con un editor Ingles para el primer periódico bilingüe en la cuidad, El Tiempo, y también escribió una sección de ese mismo periódico. En 1978 un Gran Jurado dio una citación para que Pagán daría un testifico en conexión con el arresto de su compañero, William Morales. Durante este tiempo estaba tres meses embarazada con su hijo Guillermo y rechazo testificar. En 1979 se escondo con su hijo. La arrestaron en 1980 y la cargaron con sedicioso de conspiración por pelear por la independencia de Puerto Rico y recibió una condona de 63 años encarceladas. Después de una campaña larga en los Estados Unidos, Puerto Rico, e internacional Presidente Bill Clinton le dio el Presidential Conditional Clemency a Pagán y 9 otros, el 10 de Septiembre, 1999. Ahora vive y trabaja en Puerto Rico. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible) DYLCIA PAGAN: Sure. My information? Sure. My name is Dylcia Pagán Rivera, ’cause Puerto Ricans can’t forget their mother’s name if they’re not bastards. I reside now in Puerto Rico, I live in Loíza, since I was, let’s see... I was born October 15, 1946. I consider myself not an elder but a wise woman. I’m one of the ex-Puerto Rican political prisoners, former television reporter, producer, writer, artist, holistic healer, and an activist for the independence movement of Puerto Rico. A revolutionary woman. JJ: But you were born in New York, you said? DP: I was born in the former controversial Lincoln Hospital, in the Bronx, but I was raised in East Harlem which is the second community where Puerto Ricans migrated to New York City. So it was -- East Harlem started from 96th Street to 125th Street. So that’s where I was raised, all my -- most of my life. [00:01:00] Yeah, most of my life. JJ: So then, the second community that went there, like, in the late ’40s, or...? DP: I would say -- well, I would say maybe early ’40s because -- JJ: Early ’40s. DP: -- my grandfather was a -- my mother was the one who got my father from Yauco. My father left Yauco when he was 17, [Sebastián Pagán?], he became a plumber but he was a [cadete de don?] Pedro Albizu Campos Nationalist Party. My mother went to Hunter High School -- Hunter College, my grandfather was 1 �one of the first bodegueros, grocery store owners, in East Harlem. It is said that by 1917, my grandfather had seven bodegas through East Harlem. JJ: Through East Harlem, okay. DP: Yeah. JJ: So then -- DP: So that she was raised in New York, but she would fly to Puerto Rico, or come on the boat, because sometimes there were no planes, at that time. But when I was raised, East Harlem was divided -- it was very interesting, because, being the second community where Puerto Ricans migrated to, well, Puerto Ricans did like we always do. We hang out in municipalities [00:02:00] in our area, so like 108 belonged to the people from Yauco, 109th were the people from Juanica, 110th were the people from different parts of the island, so that they had different communities -- I think that sound is affecting us. Guys, we’re taping! Hey! Brothers! Panama, we’re filming! JJ: -- talking about (inaudible). DP: My mother was from Guánica, my father from Yauco. And my grandfather had, 1917, my family always says that he had about seven or eight bodegas, which are Puerto Rican small grocery stores. I consider myself a very privileged child because -- JJ: And this is, you said, East Harlem? DP: East Harlem, el barrio. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Even though now they wanna change it to East Harlem -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) not too familiar -- 2 �DP: -- no, we’re still East Harlem -- I know, you guys are from Chicago, I’m from el barrio, New York City. So, I was raised in an atmosphere as an only child, I was very privileged. I got to go to private schools, not by choice but by accident I [00:03:00] went to Catholic schools. At five and a half years old, I was on the Children’s Hour on NBC TV, which is a children’s show by the Horn & Hardart. It was very interesting because I started as a singer, and then a producer called the house and asked my mother, my mother said, “Well, you talk to Dylcia and see what she wants to do.” So, she asked me, “Do you think you can learn a script?” I said, “Absolutely.” So one of the little stars of the show, Eileen Mary Parluck, had gotten sick, so I had to take over her role, and there was a guy dressed as a dog called Maribone the Talking Dog. So I became his best friend. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yeah. So the show opened up with east side, west side, the theme song, Ed Herlihy, which was the voice of Kraft products, was the host of the show. So I had an incredible childhood, because being on television as a dancer and an actress, I got to work out all my fantasies, I think, as a, you know, as an actress, because I’ve been a dog, a cat, [00:04:00] you name it, I’ve done it. But in the same token, when I got chosen, when I was chosen to be one of the opening stars of the show, I’ll never forget what my parents told me at dinner. “Do you want to do this?” And I said, “Oh yes.” They said, “Okay, you’re gonna do this, but remember, you’re gonna go to a different world. It’s a all-white world.” My mother said, and father told me, “And the most important thing about this experience is that they’re not better than you are.” And I said, “How come?” 3 �“Just because you’re Puerto Rican.” And I said, “What does that mean?” “It means because you have a culture, you have a history, you have music. And if the Jews have Hanukkah, you have the Three Kings, [Los Reyes de Mago?].” I have never forgotten that. And I think that’s the most important essence of my life, is because, I really believe now that I’ve gone through what I’ve gone through in life. If you know who you are, you never lose your commitment to yourself and to your country and what you really believe in. [00:05:00] My father being a nationalist always taught me about don Pedro Albizu Campos, who was the -- not the founder but one of the biggest image of the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party, which I’m honored today to tell you that I am now the new Secretary of Women Affairs of the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico, I was just -JJ: Congratulations. DP: Yeah, so it’s a big honor, it’s an honor. Given the reality that our Lolita Lebrón just passed away, and she was one of our -- my biggest loves of my life, well let’s go back to my childhood. So, I grew up in East Harlem. And, at an early age, my parents were always concerned that even though I had a privileged life in many ways... That we would always be involved in the communities. And then at that time, there was every Puerto Rican’s hangout. Well, they had social clubs. JJ: And did you mention your mother’s name (inaudible) DP: My [00:06:00] mother’s name was Delia Lidia Rivera, which is her maiden name, and my father’s name is Sebastián Pagán. Yeah. And he was known as -- 4 �“Delia and Bachán,” everybody always says, “You’re Delia and Bachán’s daughter,” you know? Especially here in Puerto Rico. What is that? (loud environmental noise) (inaudible) The sounds of Loíza are coming down upon us. So that, at an early age, even though it was on television, one of the things that my parents always were involved in, was I would go to perform at all the social clubs. JJ: You said you were on television, what (inaudible)? DP: At NBC, I said that, the Children’s Hour on NBC TV, yes. So I did it live. Not like Saturday Night Live, like real live television, (inaudible) from 1952 till 1959. Every Sunday, I had to go rehearse on Saturdays, and then film, do the show -not film, live, on NBC, on NBC Channel 4. [00:07:00] It was a great experience, I mean, I’ve worked with -- I got to be on the Hit Parade, I got to meet the people from Howdy Doody show, I worked with incredible people in my life so I think it also gives you a broader spectrum of life. But being raised in East Harlem, I was able to live the reality of what it is to live in a community that’s surrounded by poor people, really. My parents were working-class people, we weren’t rich. But we had -- I lived in a private house in the middle of East Harlem, you know. But I was also taught that whatever I had, I had to share. And I think that’s very important. My father passed away when I was 15. At 18 years old, I became the youngest community organizer with the poverty programs in New York City, in East Harlem. I worked for MEND, Massive Economic Neighborhood Development, and became a researcher with them. Then I went to work for the city of New York, I became an evaluator. And that’s where the lightbulb came 5 �out. [00:08:00] I got to evaluate all the property programs. And everybody was “maximal feasible participation of the poor,” and what we found out in evaluating the programs, that there was no participation of the poor. It was very minimal, it wasn’t maximum. That the system was maintaining -- the conditions were improving, but the people weren’t given the power to control their lives. At that period in time, I decided to go to Brooklyn College. Because of my parents’ consciousness, I was involved in a lot of community activities. As an organizer, well, I did a lot of housing work, educational work, youth work, health work, and the Young Lords came to existence in East Harlem. At that time, I was at Brooklyn College organizing the Puerto Rican students, and then while the Lords were doing the second church takeover, in New York, I was organizing the Puerto Rican Student Union. [00:09:00] Their office was, like, a block and a half away from my house, where I grew up, but I lived on 110th Street, so the second church takeover, my house was the central control for all public relations, because I lived around the block. I wasn’t a member of the Young Lords, but I definitely supported them, and to be honest I think that’s something important to talk about. What’s the importance of the Young Lords, and I think that’s... JJ: What is the importance? Yeah. DP: Yes! It’s a very important part of my life, and I think people should know about it. Especially here in Puerto Rico, and anyone who’s studying sociology, anyone that’s studying any aspect of the development of people’s lives. The Lords played a significant role in East Harlem. Why? Because they were all young people. You know? Juan, Felipe, (inaudible) David, were all -- Yoruba, were all 6 �young brothers that were college students, and they created the party because they went to Chicago and met you guys, am I [00:10:00] correct? JJ: That’s correct, yeah. DP: And it’s from your influence, of the young Lords in Chicago, that the Young Lords arise in New York City, in East Harlem. JJ: We kinda influenced each other with (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DP: I guess, yeah. JJ: We all influence each other. DP: We do, and the truth of the matter, I think we’re all living under the same conditions. That’s how we started the Puerto Rican Student Union, because we had Puerto Rican Studies departments throughout the city of New York and New Jersey, and we all faced the same enemy, we faced the same problems, so we created the union to be able to put together our strategies. So, getting back to the importance of the Lords, I think what the Lords did was they were able to demystify the image of what the people had, of what a revolutionary young man - and women. Because when they first came to East Harlem, they called ’em “lo’ peludo’,” “the kids with the big hair,” you know. And they wore the army jackets. But I also believe that they also taught the community, [00:11:00] when you take it upon yourself to teach people how to survive, and how to defend that which is yours, a level of respect emerges. And I believe when the Lords took over, did the first garbage strike, that they took over the trucks and they burned the fire, the garbage, they knew that they were for real. When they started doing the health services in our community, against lead poisoning of our children, most of 7 �our people didn’t know about lead poisoning, ’cause nobody knew. People were not educated in that field of consciousness. So that the Lords, I always say “[Lo’ Balbu?],” became the teachers to the people. And it was unbelievable, when we took over that church, that next morning, I was there, I did 11 days. JJ: So you went [right?] in the church. DP: Absolutely. I went, that morning, I didn’t go to the first takeover but I went to the second one. I walked in and David Perez tells me, “Hey Dylcia, come on, you’re gonna be security in the basement.” I said, “You got it. [00:12:00] Right on.” I’d spent 11 days, I was then dating a friend of -- a man, who was my boyfriend, who was the deputy commission [on the?] United States Commission on Human Rights. So his federal [call?] would sit in front of the People’s Church. JJ: What was his name? DP: [Bob de León?], [Roberto?] de León. He’s still my friend, we’re still dear friends. So it’s funny. So we took over the church, and I remember, when the pigs were outside and they couldn’t open up, I looked at the guy, I said, “Let’s sing,” so we sang -- what was that song? It was a gospel song, and in the videos that I -- it’ll come to me. But it was wonderful, because for the first time, we saw how these young people, young men, and myself included, showed our community that churches are not there to just have Sunday meetings. The irony is that my mother’s aunt used to come every Sunday from Simpson Street, to go to services there, but that church never [00:13:00] opened up for any services of community, so it had to be taken over. And it was. That next morning, all the welfare mothers, and everybody -- from the windows, they were bringing us bottles of 8 �milk, loaves of bread, you know, and our people’s support -- I had never made so many scrambled eggs in my lifetime. I must’ve made 75 dozen scrambled eggs for the first day. But it was an incredible experience, how the community came inside, and they got to understand not only about the Young Lords but about the question of Puerto Rican independence. About, why was our nation a colony? And we started the breakfast programs, and we started PE classes, educational programs for the children. And we had clothing drives. So that it became -JJ: So how was that educational (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Well, I think what happened was, to have an open morning program, we had to have a theme. So we taught the children about the theme, you know, Indians, they learned about [00:14:00] who their ancestors was, and when you know that you come from a warrior family, that gives you a self-pride, you know? And I think, even till this day, that’s very relevant in our society. Till this day, our history and our cultural beauty, our essence, needs to be expounded more. Our young people do not know who they really are. And that needs to be done. And that’s something I’m working on, but let’s continue about the Lords. What happened with me and the Lords, because I was with PRSU -- JJ: The Puerto Rican Student Union? DP: The Puerto Rican Student Union, I’m sorry, yes. Eventually the Puerto Rican Student Union became an entity of the Young Lords in New York. I had then left the PRSU because I went to do some independent film work for the first time on cable television, La Voz de la Comunidad was my first program. But I still supported the Lords, and whatever the Lords needed, I was able to provide for 9 �them. [00:15:00] They needed a place to use the phones, they used my house. They needed a place, I mean, two o’clock in the morning, a compañero’s funeral, Roldán, right? JJ: Julio Roldán. DP: Julio Roldán. I got a call from Yoruba, he says, “Listen, we need to put out --” I said, “All right. Let me call the director of the Johns -- James Weldon Johnson,” (inaudible), who then became assistant dean at Hunter College, but he was then the director. I called him, he said, “What do you want?” Took a cab to the Bronx, “Give me the keys.” He went upstairs and we were able to print all the information necessary for the next day. They didn’t have money for the rent, and I then became a producer, of course! What do you do with your money? You help your people. So that’s what I did. The People’s Church, we did the most beautiful New Year’s Eve celebration ever in the history of New York City. I was able to acquire every -- every artist imaginable came to perform, and Pedro Pietri, [00:16:00] our dear -- from the “Puerto Rican Obituary,” that is not the first place he went, people say that, it’s not true. Pedro was my dear friend, Pedro wrote the “Obituary” in my house and read it at Brooklyn College, where I paid him. I didn’t pay him, the [department?] paid him. So he always says, when he was alive, and he’s still alive, ’cause he lives in spirit, he’s alive, he always said, “Dylcia took me out of the closet.” And it was definitely the poetry closet, not the gay or lesbian closet, had to make that very clear because he made it clear here in Puerto Rico after I came out of prison. Okay? So the Lords were... So impactful, and I think what happened was, Felipe and I became very very -- till 10 �this day, my closest friends are part of the members of the men of the central committee. Micky Melendez, Panama, Felipe Luciano, was dear friends, [Lu Garnacosta?], we’re still friends, Tony, [00:17:00] you know, Joe Perez, we’re still friends. And I think that tells you something. And I think -- not I think, I know, it’s not that I think, I know. When you have something that’s part of you, that’s your essence. And I believe that those of us that were involved in the ’70s in our struggle for national liberation and who continue forward, even till this day, in whatever work we’re doing, when you don’t lose that essence of your commitment to struggle, then you are a total human being. ’Cause I think, the true human being is he who has, or she, who has an essence of who they are, but a commitment to life and to their people. And I can say that my comrades, because they are my comrades, ’cause while I was in prison they never forgot me. And in freedom, they’ve never forgotten me. So April 4th, 1980, I was arrested, in Evanston, Illinois. (phone ringing) JJ: Do you wanna get that first, [00:18:00] or? DP: Uh? JJ: I said, do you wanna get that first, or? DP: No, no, I’m -- what? That, I don’t answer that, no no, that’s nonsense. JJ: Yeah. And what day? DP: April 4th, 1980, I was arrested in Evanston, Illinois, with 10 of my other comrades. Prior to that, my son’s father was William -- is William Morales. He was the first member of the FALN, which is the Armed Forces for National Liberation, and I 11 �can say it, it was an honor, it’s an honor to be able to tell people that I was part of a revolutionary movement that took the time to create political military acts for the future of my country Puerto Rico. Some people may not understand that. But I believe if you believe in something that profoundly, you have to do it to the end to whatever -- by any means necessary, as brother Malcolm said. My commitment to struggle, I have no regrets. I did 20 years in prison, for the future of my country. [00:19:00] The biggest sacrifice I had to endure was my separation from my son, who was 13 months. And of course, my career. I gave up what I used to do, but I had a new career inside, which was to create a new level of activities inside the prison, to create not revolutionary consciousness, but human consciousness of kindness, because I think people don’t understand that when people are in prison, most -- the most brilliant people I have shared 20 years with, believe me, I had a theatre company, I did holistic healing programs, an art exhibit for the last 5 years I was in prison, I taught aerobics, I taught art, sculpturing, block printing, you name it. But -JJ: And this was in prison? DP: In prison, yes. I did it because I had to survive, but also it was my way of sharing my talents. So that I could create a sacred place for [00:20:00] me of survival, but also share my knowledge that I walked into the doors with the people that I was sharing my life with. JJ: You had never been in jail before? DP: No, I’d been arrested, but I’d never been in jail. No. JJ: And you got arrested for... 12 �DP: I got arrested at the People’s Church. JJ: At the People’s Church. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: At the People’s Church, I’ve been arrested at demonstrations since 1967. JJ: All these were demonstrations? DP: Oh yeah, demonstrations, yeah, then of course we were let go. JJ: So, what were you thinking, then? I mean, what was your thinking -- DP: When I got arrested? JJ: I mean, yeah, I mean, how -- DP: Well, I think, when you -- JJ: Were you worried, were you concerned, or...? DP: Well, when one commits themself to the level of commitment of struggle that we were in, two things happen to you. JJ: Which was by any means necessary (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Yes, we were part of the unarmed guerrilla -- we were part of an urban guerrilla movement in the United States. In the United States. In Puerto Rico, we had the Macheteros, in the United States we had the FALN. [00:21:00] Not that I lived my life in fear, but I think, if you’re an intelligent human being and you know your politics and you know what struggle is about, two things can happen. You get busted, or you die. Those are the two ends. And, when we got busted, I wanted to leave my child? No. JJ: You were clear on that in the beginning. DP: Oh, absolutely, I mean, I wouldn’t -- JJ: Two things can happen, busted or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 13 �DP: Exactly. I mean, I didn’t -- people sometimes -- JJ: And everybody was clear on that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DP: Oh, absolutely. Let me just say something, I think it’s very important. I do many lectures, in the last 12 years in freedom I’ve lectured all over the United States, I’ve been to Venezuela, Cuba, Spain... But, everybody asks me the question. “How did you -- what happ-- how did you -- what was your --” I’m not Oprah Winfrey, but, “What was your ‘a-ha moment’? Your revolutionary a-ha moment?” And I tell everyone, “Jesus Christ didn’t talk to me in my ear, Che Guevara [00:22:00] didn’t appear, don Pedro Albizu Campos didn’t visit me.” When you are able to see the reality of the life existence of your people and you’re able to see the contradictions of survival, you make a commitment in life. And that was my commitment, I believed in the freedom of my country. And there isn’t a country in the world that has not been involved in some form of armed struggle to get their liberation. And that was a moment -- that was a time in history, we had the examples of Cuba, we had the examples of the Vietnamese struggle, and the victory of Vietnam. We’ve had the Tupamaros, so that when we make a commitment to create -- to be part of this organization, it wasn’t that I wanted -- I don’t believe -- none of us is violent. There is not a person that’s violent, doesn’t exist in a part of myself. I’m a woman of consciousness, and the methodology at that time was doing political military acts, and that’s what we endured. [00:23:00] So that on April 4th at 2:20, we were stopped in a van, and we looked at each other, Carmen Valentín, who is from Chicago, we became comadres. Oh, we’re 14 �the best of friends, and we’ll be for this life and whatever existence comes after. Because I couldn’t see my son. JJ: So you said the methodology of that time was armed struggle, so there was more, like, trying to advance the struggle at the time? DP: Well, at that time, that was the motors -- the strategy to create consciousness was political military acts, armed struggle. I mean, what people have to understand is that, because United States is an urban society, there is no “armed struggle” as people see it on the news or as it happens in, you know, in Iraq, or Afghanistan, it’s not those types of actions, they were acts to erase consciousness so that the targets were not our people, were government agencies that were responsible [00:24:00] for many actions against our people and the colonialization of the Puerto Rican nation, and major corporations. JJ: Oh, so what you were doing this was to -- when you say erase consciousness, you’re trying to open people’s eyes...? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: No, don Pedro Albizu Campos always said, “If they don’t listen to you, then throw -- use a bullet and throw it to that.” I mean, it’s a metaphor. But it’s also a -- it was a modus operandi of conscious raising. Are there regrets? Absolutely there are regrets. Some people -- fortunately, no one lost their lives. There was an action that occurred, but that’s not for me to discuss. The FBI wants to say that we killed them, they aren’t able to prove that any one of us, 11 of -- members of my comrade that were arrested together, that we were part of those actions, that the organization took responsibility is another thing. And what was I charged with -- 15 �JJ: Right (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) that it was not proven, but [00:25:00] it was not proven. DP: It was never proven, no. JJ: It was never proven, okay. DP: And what our position was, we took the positions of Puerto Rican prisoners of war. Why? JJ: Yeah, can you explain that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) different --? DP: Of course. Why do we take the position of prisoners of war? We took the position of prisoner of war because according to international law, and the Geneva Convention, if your country is part of a declared or nondeclared war, and you are captured by the enemy, you have the international right to declare yourself a prisoner of war. So we’re not the only ones that took the position, William Morales took it, don Pedro Albizu Campos, Antonio Corretjer, any Puerto Rican that has fought for the future of our country, they’ve all declared themselves prisoners of war. And that, to us, is a position of honor, because even today people are not aware of this reality of colonialization in Puerto Rico. [00:26:00] You know. People see these new commercials that say, “Puerto Rico does it better,” and do people know that 36,000 people just lost their jobs, that this new -- this governor has tried to privatize our nation? They’re trying to make a Spanish-speaking nation that does speak English, but turning it into a completely bilingual, trying to make English -- they weren’t able to do it 50 years ago, and I guarantee you they’re not gonna be able to take our mother tongue from us, even though our mother tongue is really the Taíno language because 16 �Puerto Ricans are -- Taíno Indians, that’s why our real name is Borique, not Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico was when the white folks came, the US -- oh, we have a visitor! (dog appears) This is my little baby, this is [Toda?], who accompanies me all day long. Right, Toda? Toda? You wanna be on the interview? Huh? Yes? Say hello! No? Okay. Véte. Go ahead, véte mama, give mami a kiss, give mami kiss. (kisses) I love you. Véte, go down. Get down. [00:27:00] Toda, stop stealing -- she’s an actress, see? She’s stealing the -- she’s upstaging me. Okay, so we can continue, no mama, no. Go ahead, véte, no! Get down there. I think it’s cute, you can let her go, it’s human. JJ: [It’s human?]. DP: Yeah. I’m not gonna play with you... See? JJ: (inaudible) DP: Well, getting back to -- I mean, Puerto Rico, people don’t even know the reality of this island. And the United States has done an incredible job, because if you go to any -- first of all, we’re the oldest colony in the Western Hemisphere. Second of all, we don’t control our lives. We have elections that are not run by independent parties, they’re run by the United states government. Everything that is done on this beautiful 35-by-100-foot island is run by the US of A. So let us [00:28:00] not deceive ourselves and think, “Oh, this is a paradise.” This is a paradise invaded. And if you visit Puerto Rico, it is an incredible island because we have all the most beautiful fauna and flora, but the irony is that our people -we don’t even have an agricultural society because why? American industrialization changed what would be done in Puerto Rico. What rules in 17 �Puerto Rico is not what our people can survive with, it’s what the United States can earn money from, because they give us money, believe you me, they take 75 percent more than what they give our nation. And what they give us is a mentality -- that’s what colonialization is. I tell people that I would rather be a slave, because slavery is an overt act. Slaves, slavery, people wore chains, you know you were being abused, you know you were being exploited, it was an overt action, but colonialization [00:29:00] is a psychological burden, it’s a psychological game, it’s a psychological plan, that when you visit Puerto Rico, and you live here, you see it every day. We appear as an abundant society, but we’re not, because we don’t control our lives. Everything that we purchase, we pay 75 percent more than anybody in the United States. You know? People have to understand, yeah, we have Walmarts but you know what, to have Walmart, Sam’s, and all these big stores, we no longer have very few (inaudible) the neighborhood businesses, very few exist. I was just in Manatí yesterday at a meeting, and all the wonderful little stores and neighborhood stores were closed. The stores were empty because there aren’t any small businesses in Puerto Rico, because it’s the major corporations that have come here, and everybody wants to go to Costco, and everybody wants to go to Sam, everybody goes [00:30:00] to Walmart, but la bodega doesn’t -- you can’t buy your stuff at the bodega, it’s three times as much than if you went to Walmart. JJ: And so... So, you feel that if there’s independence, there’d be more bodegas, or --? 18 �DP: Well, I think if our nation was independent -- we have all the resources. We’re a technologically developed nation, we’re bilingual, we have engineers, we have lawyers, we have all the professionalism. What we have to do is to create our own industrial, which we can do with our own money, ’cause we do have Puerto Ricans that have money, we do have -- it was quite clear with the last hurricane, the big hurricane, Puerto Ricans raised [29 or 2.5?] million dollars in less than 24 hours. That tells you something. [29 or 2.5?] millions is not a lot, but it tells you that there is an economic base here, and if we owned our land, and if we had the power of our land, then we could [00:31:00] create our own resources in our land. We could -- the mango trees don’t have to be knocked down, you know, the quenepas, we could sell that, we can make an industry, we can create our own bamboo industry. To be honest, with the thousands of bamboo trees that live in this island. JJ: But what are we gonna do about the age, and the wealth, the Social Security, and the...? DP: Well, you know, we’re not gonna die. You think the United States is gonna [?] people? We’ve learned to survive, and we will survive. And then, first of all, the United States will never make us a state, let’s make it abundantly clear. Why? Because we would have more representation in the United States Senate than any state in the United States of America. Two, we run a different culture. It’s not like our Mexicans that come to the United States. Puerto Ricans have a unique culture, and I say it not because I’m ethnocentric, we have this thread -- I believe it’s a [00:32:00] generic line of resistance that exists in us. We have the 19 �power, we’ve created many, many idols across -- in many aspects of life. In musicians, in theatre, in the sports world, you name it, scientists, we have ’em, historians. So that, that’s something that can be negotiated with USA, plus they owe it to us, you know? We’ve been their slaves, we’ve been their colonialist rules for all these years, so that they owe us all of that money. Whatever they give us. JJ: So you’re saying they owe us the Social Security. DP: Yes, absolutely! You work here, you don’t get federal -- you know, you don’t pay federal funds, so that means that your Social Security is diminished, you know. And for everything the United States has taken from us, there’s nothing wrong in getting what’s due to you. There’s restoration, restitution, absolutely. JJ: Okay. I’ll take a break. DP: No, fine. JJ: If you wanna go on a break. DP: Let’s go break. JJ: Okay. DP: I think it’s [00:33:00] important that people understand what is happening today in Puerto Rico, and when I mentioned earlier about the question of the governor, the governor of Puerto Rico today, he supports statehood. Not only does he support statehood, but he’s a Republican. Furthermore, it is, because of who you are one understands how people get elected, and people don’t gonna get elected by the popular vote, let’s be honest, it’s money involved, and that’s what makes politics run. ’Cause to run a campaign, you don’t do it with Scotch tape 20 �and bubblegum, you do it with money. Luis Fortuño was supported by the right -ultra-white aspect of the Bush people, so that’s why he became the governor of Puerto Rico and all he has given us is, he’s attempted to privatize all of our institutions. A month and a half ago, he closed down the only Puerto RicanAfrican museum of our African culture. The essence of our culture. Supposedly, [00:34:00] all the incredible pieces that were there, and I’ve visited that place numerous of times, before I went to prison and after, now I’ve been in freedom 12 years, that’s an insult to the Puerto Rican population, it’s an insult to our culture. So that’s what colonialism is all about, colonialism is about taking what is ours and turning it into something that it doesn’t exist. Puerto Ricans will never assimilate. I’ve always said that the beauty of our people, and I said it again, I’m not ethnocentric, but you go anywhere in the world, and you see a person that looks like a Spanish-speaking person, and they’re Puerto Rican, and you ask them, “What are you?” “Boricua, Puerto Rican.” That has to come from an essence -- I believe in genetic deposition. In genetic deposition, we have an essence of ourselves that even though we’ve been colonized by Spain and the United States, we have always maintained our essence as a people. The reason why people become members of [00:35:00] parties is because we become family. If my mother belonged to the popular party, well then I’m that. If my mother was a statehooder -- I live in Loíza, which is the only municipality that has the essence of our Puerto Rican-African culture. This is a whole-statehood municipality. Why? Because it’s the most marginal municipality in all of the 72 that are here outside of Vieques and Culebra. So what the statehood party did 21 �was, they separated Loíza from Canóvanas and made it a new municipality, even though Loíza originally extended all the way to what today is Isla Verde, from Isla Verde all the way to Fajardo. That was in the olden days when the Borinquén was our nation. And in the transcript of Americanization, this incredible town doesn’t even have an archive about their history. The only thing people know about Loíza out there is that [00:36:00] people make masks out of coconuts and we dance [bomba y plena?] and we have a festival which we haven’t had in many years at the level that we used to have. So, that shows you what colonialization does, colonialization takes away, and it’s a psychological war. It is an undeclared war because if you make your people dependent on what you’re giving them, and here most of the people live on food stamps and welfare, and they have the plan of the government -- and I’m on the plan of the government because of my situation right now financially. But the truth of the matter is people here don’t even know that they’re -- the beauty of their essence, of what Mother Africa has given us Puerto Ricans, so that’s a real example of colonialism is about. And if you visit here, you don’t think that poor people are living here, because the government has done that. They create this facade. I call it ro-“looking at a nation through rose-colored [00:37:00] glasses”. Okay, where do we go now? (laughs) JJ: Okay, well, you were mentioning -- you’ve mentioned a couple of times about jail. And I just wanted to -- ’cause you spent about how many years? DP: Well I was incarcerated almost 20 years. I was arrested April 4th, 1980, and I was released September 10th, 1999. 22 �JJ: So you got arrested where? DP: In Evanston, Illinois. JJ: In Evanston, Illinois, and then you were taken where? DP: To the state prison, well, we went to the county jails. And then we went -- after that we had a state and federal trial. When the state trial finished, then we were sent -- I went to Dwight, the women’s penitentiary -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [the trial?] -- what are some of the highlights of the trial [after?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Well, I’m writing my book, so I’m, you know -- I’ll tell you a little bit, so then I’ll make them -- people have to go out and buy my book, by next year it should be out. I’m only joking. The trial was very simple. We took a position -- a prisoner of war, which I said before, prisoner of war, none of us, 11 of us, were [00:38:00] arrested on that day. We took that international law position of prisoner of war, that means you do not recognize the jurisdiction of the United States courts. So none of us -- we had legal advisors, but we did not participate. Each of us made an opening and closing statement during our trial. And we were sentenced -- at the state level I was sentenced to 8 years and at the federal prison level I was sentenced to 62 years. So I was sentenced to 68 years. JJ: Did you do any time at the state (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DP: I did three and a half years at the state women’s penitentiary, absolutely. I was maximum security. JJ: Where were you at? 23 �DP: I was in Dwight, Illinois. The only female prison, I believe, in the state of Illinois, yeah. And when we were there -- I heard now that it’s much bigger, and of course, they keep arresting women of color, it doesn’t matter. It’s interesting, the many young white women in prison, at the state prison. And I have to tell you, at the state prison the conditions were a lot better, to me, [00:39:00] than in the feds, because I believe the officers were really interesting human beings. Most of them were, like, farm workers that owned the farms before, and they didn’t have -- so then the only option they had was to be correctional officers. So they treated us with a lot of dignity, with a lot of human kindness, you know? You always find those that wanna be officers, absolutely. But while I was in prison, I’ll tell you an example. The day I left, I owed 82 hours of what they call confinement, of what is [publishing?] confinement, which could be, like, I couldn’t go to recreation, not to be put in segregation, of course I’d been put in segregation many times in the 20 years. And my most biggest offense in the state was, “insolence,” and I used to tell them, the [warden?], “How could I be insolent of something that I’m not a part of?” You know? But -- JJ: I’m not clear what that is. What is that? DP: Insolent? When one is insolent, is that [00:40:00] you’re going against the rules, against the person that’s responsible to give you orders, and [like above?] my position was when I went to prison. JJ: This is where you were put in segregation, or? 24 �DP: Oh, I was put in segregation for other reasons, but this is why I got what they call a “shot”. It’s a disciplinary action, then you have to go before a lieutenant, and the officers, and then they give you punishment. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yeah. I’ve been to the hole for very other reasons, many other things. Again, it’s significant, but they needed to do it, and they did it. Fine, no problem. JJ: So you come in and they give you the shot, did you said? DP: No no. When I came in, I told the officer, that I’m just -- they wanted my respect, they’d then have to respect me. My name was Dylcia Pagán, and their name was Officer So-and-so, and that’s how we addressed each other. The reason I went to segregation was they assigned me to the kitchen, I have a displaced hip, and I tried to inform them [00:41:00] that I have a medical disorder, and I couldn’t be picking up 60-pound trays, and nobody wanted to listen to me. So, my lawyers came to visit, and I said, “Tuesday morning, I end on my 90 days as my kitchen duty, I’m going to the hole,” as they call it. Segregation, we would call it - [the three words?], the hole. JJ: So you made a decision. DP: I made a decision. And at two o’clock in the -- now when you worked in the kitchen, you worked 24 hours, and you had one day off, of course you had to, you were dead, you know, exhausted. And I had a lot of incidents with my supervisors because I would never -- my parents told me that I didn’t have to take commands from anybody. That if you could talk to people, you could work things out. But I had all these, all the white women that were the kitchen 25 �supervisors, and they insisted, and insisted, I’m pushing your bullet, you know, pushing the horn. And one of the things I can’t stand is to be told what to do, especially by some -- an ignorant human being. So that was where the [00:42:00] insolence came in, either with the staff or the officers. And then, when I went to segregation, the first time was because I refused to work, and it was like four o’clock, 3:30, and they wanted -- “Miss Pagán,” they brought all the lieutenants into my unit, I said, “I’m not changing my position. I finished my 90 days, I’m going to the hole, I’m not going to work anymore.” So they put me in the hole, guess what? In less than 24 hours, a doctor arrived. And I said, “Oh my goodness, did you just get a beeper?” (laughter) “After 90 days?” ’Cause all of a sudden, then I got a note that said that I couldn’t do heavy-duty. But it took 90 days and my own defiance to be able to get my rights. Many things happened in the state, but then I got transferred to the feds. I got transferred, and almost near Christmas, it was a snow storm, and I decided I was gonna go to breakfast to say goodbye to my fellow inmates. And they said, “But you can’t,” I said, “I’m going to breakfast.” And since [00:43:00] I was a guard escort, I had to go at -all my three and a half years, all of us, were guard escort, that meant we couldn’t move anywhere within the premises without a guard with us. And when it was snowing -JJ: All of the people that you got arrested with? DP: My female co-defendants that were with me, yes. JJ: Okay. Everyone had an escort? 26 �DP: We had a badge that we wore. So if we went from one unit to a visiting room, the officer had to come in the car. And then when it was snow, the car would come, but we had to walk in the snow to go to the visiting room. So they always try to break your spirit, and I’ve always said that when you’re in p-- JJ: You’re already in jail, and, you're already been sentenced, and... DP: I was already sentenced, absolutely. JJ: And they’re still trying to break your spirit (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Oh, of course, that’s part of the game. I said, it’s a psychological game, and they try to do it by any means necessary, of course they will. But like I said, when you know who you are, and you know why you’re there, they can’t break your spirit. ’Cause I had my principles, [00:44:00] and I knew who I was, and I knew what I represented. And also in the state prison, I offered work with the women in prison, you know? I had an aerobic class that even the warden came to my class, half of the staff came to my aerobic class. I taught art. You know? One has to survive, and I wasn’t gonna survive staying in a room, so I created programming. You know? So that I could be creative and my mind could be functioning, and I was at the same time making a contribution to the women that I was living with. So then in ’83 I went to the federal custody. To get there was a fiasco, I mean, I had a car with -- JJ: I [recognize?], yeah (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Sure. 27 �JJ: I didn’t mean to interrupt (inaudible). So you’re in jail now, you’re going through this demoralization campaign, that they’re trying to do to you. [00:45:00] What are you thinking, are you thinking you’ll ever get out of jail, or? DP: Oh, I always knew I’d be in freedom. I worked on the campaign for the release of a Puerto Rican nationalist, and I said, being raised with an essence of being Puerto Rican, I knew my struggle, I knew the history of our people, and I knew I wasn’t gonna die in jail, absolutely not. Did I like being in jail? Absolutely not. I was separated from my child, my child was 13 months. I chose that my child be not raised in Puerto Rico or New York because of FBI reoccurrence, because we had an example of North American comrades, they took -- the FBI sequestered their children, and to this day, this is almost 30-some-odd years ago, maybe 40, some of the kids that were sequestered by the FBI are still under severe psychological therapy. So I made a decision that my son was raised out of the country, so I didn’t hear from my son for 10 years. What I do know is that Juan Antonio Corretjer [00:46:00] made the arrangement for my son to be raised in Chihuahua, México, and he was raised by the Gomez Gomez family who was just here a couple of weeks ago, I’m honored. And I would say probably it was my parents’ spirit because I’ve been alone, my father died when I was 15, my mother when I was 20, so I’ve been alone since I was 20 years of age. And I really believe it’s their guiding spirit, and of course don Juan Antonio Corretjer’s efforts that brought my son to this incredible revolutionary family that has raised my son. And he’s still part of their lives, absolutely. JJ: And were you not in communication with him at all, or? 28 �DP: Until he was 10 years old. I didn’t see him till he was 10 years old. JJ: You didn’t see him till he was 10 (inaudible) DP: No. I didn’t know of him, where he was, till he was 10. For Christmas, he showed up in the federal prison, yes. And then he’s been in my life ever since, he’s here in Puerto Rico, he married -- JJ: What’s his name? DP: My son’s biological name, birth name, is Guillermo Morales Pagán. At the age of 27 he [00:47:00] asked -- well, he informed me that he wanted to take on his Mexican name, and I had no problems with that. I call him -- I always tell him, he’s a Mexi-Rican. JJ: Mexi-Rican? DP: He’s a Mexi-Rican, absolutely. And he’s very proud of his Mexican heritage, and he should be, because that’s what he was raised. And he also knows his Puerto Rican and he was definitely involved totally in our campaign, ’cause once he became part of my life, at 15 he came to live in San Francisco so he could visit me, and that’s where the documentary, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, titled the Double Life of Ernesto Gomez Gomez that aired on PBS, it’s won -- JJ: I have heard of it, actually. DP: It’s won about 14 awards nationally, internationally, was done. And basically, it’s his idea, it’s Gary Weimberg and Cathy Ryan, who were basically his padrinos because they ended up adopting him as his godchild, and as a matter of fact he just told me he’s gonna go see Cathy and Gary in June because it’s Gary’s 50th [00:48:00] birthday, so that’s a blessing. You know, when you can’t be with your 29 �child and you find people that can substitute that love and support, that’s -- my son has an extended family, he does. I’m very blessed in that area, absolutely. JJ: So then you’re at a state prison, you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: At the state prison, and then in 1983 -- JJ: So you completed your state time, or? DP: No. In the state, you do day for day, and of course they wanted to get rid of us anyway, they were dying to get rid of us, you know, “Let’s transfer them outta here,” so that I ended up doing three and a half years of my state -- federal -- JJ: Were you creating problems in there, or? DP: No, no, I was creating programs for them. But anytime our rights were, in any way, abolished or threatened -- JJ: The attorneys would come and -- DP: The attorneys and demonst-- we’ve had many demonstrations in front of that prison. JJ: And these attorneys were [from where?]? DP: Well, from the People’s Law Office of Chicago, our lead attorney, Jan Susler was there, Michael -- at that time it was Michael Deutsch and Jan [00:49:00] Susler. JJ: You [were?] familiar with -- DP: Excuse me? JJ: When we took over McCormick Seminary, the first 25,000 dollars were (inaudible) [law?]. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Really? That’s wonderful, they’re incredible people, that’s the whole thing. JJ: The Young Lords helped to create the law. 30 �DP: Wonderful. No, and, the People’s Law Office is a phenomenon, you know. The people -- the offices -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the lawyers definitely got credit. (laughs) They’re the ones that did the work, but -- DP: Well -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: In our case, they didn’t do any work, because they were just there to represent us, but they were there to support us 20 years, and that’s work. JJ: In your case because of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [trial?]? DP: Exactly. We did not recognize the jurisdictions of the United States courts, so we only did opening, as I said before, and closing statements, but we always had legal representation, and they always visited us, and every prison I was at, everyone said, “My God, your lawyers walk in, and it’s like you all hug and kiss,” and I said, “But they’re a family!” We don’t have a regular client-lawyer relationship, we’re family, and that’s the difference. [00:50:00] You know? Absolutely, yes. JJ: Okay, so you’re in the -- DP: So then I went to federal prison. In ’84, the [Bureau Prison Society?]’s doing what they call -- define as a robin round. A robin round is when they -- it’s a psychological study, so they take you all to different facilities and they don’t tell you when they’re gonna move you. So they took me -- I was at 6 different prisons and 20 different holding places for a year and seven months. I defined myself as the FALN ambassador, ’cause no matter where they went, I fought for 31 �the prisoners, I created programming, and I was Dylcia, who I’ve always been. You know? My role was to create programming, to service the inmates, and that’s what I’ve done. You know? And I’m glad I did. I have a young woman who’s doing her doctorate in California on my life, and an interesting [00:51:00] story is, six years ago I got an email from this gentleman named Enrique Alvarez, and he said, “I don’t know if you remember me, but I was your officer. I worked,” you know, “I was your officer, and you changed my life. The day after you were released, I took your advice, I left the BOP, I have a master’s in counseling, and I’m coming to Puerto Rico. I’d be honored for you to meet my wife and my daughter.” Till this day, he’s my dear friend, and if you visit my website, you will hear his testimony in the establishing of my foundation, the Dylcia Pagán Foundation. So anybody that wants to read that story, and do visit my website, W-W-W dot Dylcia, D-Y-L-C-I-A P-A-G-A-N, dot com. JJ: (inaudible). (laughs) DP: It has my poetries there, you can see some of my artwork. And you can read about the projects that I’m working on. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [link that to them, that’d be great?]. DP: Surely. And right now, well -- 20 years in prison, what didn’t [00:52:00] I do? I had a Puerto Rican dinner every year for [ages?], create -- you know, I got the inmates to cook and got them to pay for the food that was necessary to make it a Puerto Rican meal. I did every cultural activity for the Black inmates, the Native Americans, their powwows -- JJ: This is in the --? 32 �DP: In the federal prison, yeah. JJ: In the federal prison, okay. DP: Yeah. I taught aerobics -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [Día de Los Reyes?] -- DP: Of course. [Día de Los Reyes?], I had it every year, 20 years, I did a big dinner for all the prisoners, absolutely. Yes. First one was a [piñón?], and it’s not easy to make a piñón for, like, 860 people but we did it. I organized working with inmates, the children’s center, where we took care of the kids and visitors of the inmates. I did children’s day twice a year, and I was able to acquire 60 staff members to come un-uniformed to work, and we did security for that day when the children were allowed to come to the prison, my last five years I did a [00:53:00] 19-category art exhibit of all the artwork of the prisoners, with a gift shop. I’ll tell you a story. The Native American women did this incredible -- they still do, I’m sure they’re still incarcerated, some of them, they might be still incarcerated. They do incredible beadwork. And then a lot of the North American women did beadwork. So I had just a category for the Native American women. And our Native American sisters are very humble, very humble. One of the sisters came up to me at the exhibit, she said “Ms. Dylcia,” I said, “What?” “My [roseta of Kokopelli?] is gone.” And I said, “Yeah, I know.” She said, “Where did it go?” I said, “This is one of my teachers from the holistic - one of the facilitators. She bought your Kokopelli.” And she looked at me and she said, “I didn’t put a price on it,” I said, “But I did.” I said, “So next week, you’ll have 150 dollars.” And she started to cry, and of course I had to cry, because 33 �she had never been [00:54:00] able to speak to her children, so that, to me, that’s a gift. And to watch the women stand before their work and say, “I won this prize. I am worth -- I’m not a criminal, I’m worth, because I can do things, I’m a creative being.” There’s a lot of pleasure, and it’s not even pleasure, it’s just a feeling of happiness that one experiences when you see women that can stand behind their work and say, “This is mine, I earned this.” You know? And the holistic healing program was phenomenal. We had a weekend of about 15 different workshops, for a whole weekend, 110 women were allowed to participate in this incredible extravaganza. I taught aerobics, I taught handformed clay, block printing -JJ: So you’re teaching (inaudible) DP: I had a theatre company, yes. JJ: I know, but how many [00:55:00] people were -- DP: In my aerobic class? Oh, I had over 200, 300 women, absolutely. Matter of fact, I went to California, my first trip after nine years of freedom, and I was able to have lunch with five of my -- Black -- I hate that -- I don’t like the term “Afro Americans,” my Black sisters, and we had a hell of a day, because it was hysterical, ’cause they were all in my exercise class and they all stood up and they said, “Bend your knees, D!” So it was an excellent experience, because what happens is we believe that people that are in prison are these animals, and they’re not. I have shared rooms with incredible women, I’ve rubbed shoulders with brilliant writers, poets, you know, women who unfortunately, some have lost their children because the system doesn’t provide those kind of internal social 34 �services for our inmates, especially the women, you know. There are many women from all of [00:56:00] Latin America, I met a whole group of sisters from Africa, and was able to negotiate that the BOP give them clothes, because they had no family in this country. So I think, to me, it was a worthy experience, not that I liked being in prison 20 years. Like the saying says, “When you get lemons, make lemonade.” I tried to make lemonade. Did I have difficult time? Absolutely. Did I miss my child? Absolutely. Did I miss my freedom? Yes. But I was on the phone, I knew what everybody was producing, what everybody was doing, I used to talk to [assemblyman José Rivera at least?] once a month, you know, so I was -- to the moment of what was happening outside the world, but I lived inside, and I didn’t live in a fantasy world, like, “Oh, I’m not in prison,” no. I didn’t have a map, a calendar and mark the days, no, but I knew that I would be in freedom, and that whatever day I did inside, I was doing it for my nation, I wasn’t there [00:57:00] serving the United States government, I was serving my nation. JJ: Okay, so you mentioned that there were some pleasurable moments [in there?], and also -- but you said some of these sad -- what were the sad moments? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Oh, there were many. I think it’s once you can’t see your child, you know, that was 10 years of difficulty, it was heartbreaking. But in order to heal, I created a children’s center, so that I was able to service the children of my fellow inmates. Carmen Valentín, who was from Chicago, became comadres. I couldn’t see my son, so her son Antonio, we had privileges to visit together. So Antonio was my 35 �child, I worked with -- we made all the decisions of Antonio’s life for those 10 years until my son arrived, you know? He’s still in my life, he’s my godson. Just like my son is in Carmen’s life, and Carina, Oscar López who’s now 31 years, that’s her grandfather. Carmen’s granddaughter’s grandfather. [00:58:00] Yeah. Oscar López, who’s in prison, my co-defendant. And -JJ: What is going on with Oscar (inaudible)? DP: Well, with Oscar, what’s happening is Oscar went to the parole board on his birthday, January, and the parole board basically told him to come back and give him 15 more years. So -- JJ: Give him -- DP: Yeah. Oscar could’ve been home in 2009 but he refused the clemency, because he felt that it didn’t include everybody else that was arrested, and that was his choice. He did a choice of integrity, and that has to be honored, so what we’re doing now is we’re launching a national and international campaign demanding his release. Hopefully -- JJ: And how does that campaign work, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) or? DP: Well, we have -- his artwork has traveled all over the world right now, matter of fact we’re gonna have a march -- a walkathon, this coming Sunday, in honor of Oscar, ’cause Oscar loves to walk. Matter of fact, he did for Vieques, he did a whole [00:59:00] protest march for Vieques and he had inmates that marched with him, and we marched here, we did a walkathon with Oscar, for Vieques, to get the US Navy out of Vieques. Oscar has become an incredible artist, he paints beautifully, so we have -- his artwork has traveled all over, we have -- all 36 �the universities, I was honored to say that I took -- when Carlos was still inside, Carlos was just released last year. We did the exhibit of their work, “Place Without Space,” I forget -- yeah I think it is. We took it to New York and I’m honored to say that I put it together with Taller Boricua and Julia de Burgos Center. We had over 400 people at the opening. So that’s [what you?] -whenever I speak, I can’t talk about who I am if I don’t talk about Oscar, and I don’t talk about Leonard, ’cause it’s not just Oscar, I mean, Puerto Rican, we have Leonard Peltier, we have our Cuban Five, we have many new African comrades that are still in prison. Many have died [01:00:00] inside. So I think people need to understand that they’re not just Puerto Rican political prisoners, we have Albelino and Norberto Gonzalez Claudio that is now in prison, so it’s Oscar who’s done 31, but Albelino and Norberto are inside also. The struggle continues, but we can’t forget that our people are inside, ’cause the one day you give the enemy is part of your life. But when you give it with integrity and dignity, that’s the difference -- when we were -- I think what happened -- people wouldn’t understand my position. The women would say, “You know, you’re so smart, Ms. Pagán,” and the Black sisters would say, “Don’t ask Ms. Pagán nothing. ’Cause she’s gonna stop you and give you a course in Black history.” But when the documentary about my son and I aired on PBS, everyone -- we had the count changed so that the women could see it, it was a struggle but I [01:01:00] got them to approve it. People were astound. And that’s why I’m a visual artist, because I think you can talk, but until you see the reality of what my son was going through and the reality of our struggle and you see, I mean, the visuals of 37 �the Navy in Vieques, of the real conditions of Puerto Rico, the questions of the sterilization of our women, you know, and you see the reality and you hear people’s voices and people give the testimony about the reality of Puerto Rico, then people’s eyes open, and they say, “Wow, now I understand.” So I think that -- that aired July 30th, we were released September 10th. We had 10 days to choose the conditions or not, we ended up deciding to sign, because there was a big meeting of our people here in Puerto Rico, our leadership in the United States, and they asked us to sign, and so we did. So I’ve been in [01:02:00] freedom, September 10th, 1999, till today. It’s been incredible. You know. Our people received us from all parties in open arms, our people have supported me in many ways. My life is difficult because I’m an independent filmmaker, I’m older now, nobody is gonna give me a job in television so I create my own projects independently. But I’m in freedom. I don’t have to worry about what time they lock me up. If I wanna have a little glass of wine, I do. If I wanna go dance to salsa dances, I do. I wanna visit my friends -- also when we came out we were on parole for six years, so we couldn’t see each other. We were able to -- if we bumped into each other, we could talk for 15, 10 minutes. I got privileged one time -- Carmen was able to spend Christmas with me, one year. JJ: Did you (inaudible)? DP: Yes, absolutely, yes. So my life was curfewed, because I was only allowed to travel three times a year, and I had a lot of [01:03:00] invitations for speaking engagement, but they wouldn’t approve it. JJ: So you did 20 years and [then?] plus another 6 -- 38 �DP: Plus another 6, exactly, yeah. JJ: And that’s what everybody -- other people did the same thing -- DP: Oh yes, absolutely, yeah. JJ: But now you can travel anywhere, or? DP: Oh yes, after 6 years of freedom, so it was ’99, ’99 and 6, 2003, I believe, right? Nine... Eh, around there. They dropped our parole, I’ve been able to go -- I spoke at a conference in Madrid, (inaudible) Madrid and then spent a week and a half with my niece that was living in Spain, I was able to go to Venezuela, I was in Cuba for nine days and had an incredible nine days of experience. I wasn’t able to visit the comandante Fidel because he was ill at that time, but I make masks. I call them “Reinas y cacicas”, why? Because in our culture, Puerto Rican women at the time of our Taíno Indians, we were chieftains of tribes. [01:04:00] We’re the only indigenous country -- nation -- that has women that were heads of tribes. And all the masks in Puerto Rico were faces of men, so I’ve decided, I’ve come out with a new series called “Reinas y casicas” -- “queens and casicas, and chieftains”. And I made him one, I made him his spiritual guide, I made him and I know he received it, I gave it to [Alarcón?] and then, [nobody’s besting, you know, the?] Secretary General of the Parliament of Cuba. And it was a wonderful experience to visit Cuba, to see the Cuban people. They live with dignity and pride, yes, they have food. They may not have all the cars, and God damn in Puerto Rico we have so many cars, like, every time you go out there’s a traffic jam, am I correct, you know? JJ: Mm-hmm. So you were pretty well-received there, did you -- 39 �DP: Oh, I was received by the government, I went with Mickey Melendez from the Young Lords, his wife. Matter of fact, [Cynthia?] and Mickey got [01:05:00] married two Novembers ago, in Cuba, at the Puerto Rican house there. And we went with Joe Perez who’s from the Lords in New York, his wife, and we stayed at the protocol house, so, I mean, we had our own escort. It was talked about -VIP, that was VIP treatment. And then our car was there every morning at seven o’clock to make sure that we went to our trips. So I was able to visit the AIDS center, it was phenomenal, phenomenal. There is not a separate island, it’s just a huge piece of land, where the people that have AIDS, they’ve been rejected in their communities, they can stay there and work and they grow the land. I went to the film school, I gave a whole -- contributed all of my pieces and stuff from my television series that I worked on, (inaudible) we haven’t talked about, which maybe I should talk a little bit about my experience in that. I went to the film school, I went to visit the social workers, we went to the Pedro Albizu Campos high school -- JJ: [01:06:00] In Cuba. DP: In Cuba, yes. And I am the official madrina of the school, that is from kindergarten to eighth grade. And they all knew who I was, and they sang the Borinqueña. It was unbelievable! Beautiful. And the principal is 21 years old, is that incredible? Brilliant, you know? And the people, we went to a concert. We went to visit Che Guevara’s tomb. But with VIP -- I mean, I got to see every aspect of the museum, they got us private viewing of his tomb, what an experience. And then they showed us the film and we were able to sit in the 40 �reception room and sign the book, behind this incredible -- it’s about the size of my wall behind me, of Che. It was an incredible experience, yes. And just to see the people because, you know, I did a lot of television, I did a lot of interviews, so of course they passed the news every morning, Fidel speaks, and I got to speak, so the car passed [01:07:00] by the people waiting for the public buses, they’d wave, you know, we’d say hello, no matter where we went. We were treated with, you know, just dignity and support, and just to see a nation that everybody criticizes because they don’t know what it is, but what an incredible place Cuba is. People dress like we do, believe you me, they know how to jam, because they do jam, baby. That’s what I didn’t get to do, and I told our international head of protocol, I said, “You know, the next time I have to go out and jam, (inaudible) because I love to dance,” you know? But it was incredible, I’ll probably be in Venezuela in July, we have a conference I have to go. And as the secretary of women affairs for the nationalist party I’ll be representing the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party. Of Puerto Rico. JJ: Now you mentioned (inaudible)...? DP: Okay, oh, right, that I left my shows, yes. How did I become a TV producer, you’re probably wondering? Oh, okay. Can we take a break? I need to wet my [01:08:00] mouth. JJ: Okay, so then you said you couldn’t attend any funerals but then were gonna go into -- DP: Okay, well one of the things that you had asked me before, were we -- as political prisoners, yes, we were treated differently. An example, one of our family 41 �members -- none of us were ever able to attend any family funerals. Our visiting lists were -- I have two dear friends, Frank Espada, who’s Juan Espada’s father JJ: I know Frank, yeah. DP: That’s my dear friend. And Humberto Cintrón, who was the executive producer of the first television series [so?] I’ll tell you the stories that I worked on. Took a year and a half to get them on my visiting list. Why? Because each one of us had an FBI agent that when we put the list in, that list went to the agent, and when they felt like it, then they would approve it. So, but contrary to all of that, my friends from New York came to visit me. The best thing was that we had a group of young students who visited me [01:09:00] every Sunday for 10 years. Today they’re all professionals, they’re all part of my life, as a matter of fact Ray Pavón and Francis Free Ramos got married, and I married them in [Tuincol?], I did the ceremony, and Carmen and I both did -- but I did the wedding vows, but we did the ceremony together, and then I did the wedding. I married them. They have two incredible children. Ray is a hip hop political performer, he’s now a house dad and Francis is a social worker and they’re incredible. So [Faulisha?] is married, they share a house, Jason has a little boy, he’s married. Khalil and his brother, Khalil’s brother Eli is a person who’s done the best pieces of documentaries on hip hop, he’s just finishing a piece on hip hop in India. Uh, Khalil just got married, so he’s become like his ambassador, and they work together, so that -- it’s incredible. [01:10:00] I had a son, and then I adopted more daughters and sons, and they’re still in my life. They come to Puerto Rico, 42 �they come here. I go to California, I hang out with them, you know? It’s a problem sometimes cause then it’s like, “How many days you gonna stay with me?” “No, D’s gonna stay with me.” “No, I’m gonna D --” So we work it all out so I spend time with all of them, and of course Gary Weimberg and Cathy Ryan, I have to go and spend some time with. They had the courage and valor to do the documentary on our lives, you know. Okay, so you’re probably wondering, I didn’t tell you how I became a TV producer. Again, it wasn’t a miracle. I was on television as a child, after being an organizer and going to Brooklyn College and starting the Puerto Rican Studies department at Brooklyn, still exists, and the union, the union still doesn’t exist, but -JJ: So you started the Puerto Rican Studies? DP: In Brooklyn College, yes. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yes. I brought Dr. [Luis Ianes Falcón?] who then became our attorney for our political release, I [01:11:00] brought him to be a professor at Brooklyn College with Alfredo Matilla. Yeah. We started the first -- I initiated, at Brooklyn College, I started the Black Studies department, and then organized -- found the Puerto Ricans who were having [dances?] and then was able to organize the Puerto Rican Alliance which still exists today at Brooklyn College. What happened was, I got approached by a friend that said, Manhattan Sterling wanted to do a Puerto Rican show. So I went to Manhattan Sterling, well, the studio was half of this living room, with one camera, and I created a show called La Voz de la Comunidad. It was a talk show, and we had one camera, this young brother was 43 �at Ithaca University, and he was organizing the first Puerto Rican conference, so we called it “el sancocho”, so that was the first show I ever did. Shortly after that, after the [01:12:00] People’s Church, Geraldo Rivera and I became very good friends. My dear friend Bob de León was the person who got him the scholarship to go to Columbia School of Journalism. One day Geraldo calls me and says, “Look, I need --” You know, he was doing Like It Is with Gil Noble who just passed away, what an incredible man, he gave his life of creating real consciousness in American television. Like It Is, Gil Noble. Geraldo asked me, “Who do you use for the show?” I said, “Why don’t you take -- put Pedro Pietri on the show,” you know? “He’s a poet, he’s satirical, and he’s incredible, he talks about the real Puerto Rican experience with his ‘Puerto Rican Obituary’,” which I’m sure you know, they were always on time, well, he wrote that in my home. So that’s why his book is dedicated to me. Alfredo Matilla did the Spanish translation and the second version -- the second publication was dedicated to me. To me, [01:13:00] that’s an honor. I miss my Pedro, you know, he passed away five and a half years ago. But he lives here all the time, he used to knock down rum bottles after he died, all the time. But anyway, so Pedro went on the show, Pedro comes to my house, like he always used to, always did, Pedro Pietri and Papoleto -JJ: (inaudible) DP: Oh, baby, they’d get drunk, and we had a rule. I didn’t want them anywhere running the streets, so if you didn’t have money, you call me and I pay for a cab. Collect calls, mind you, so -- with collect call, I knew who it was from, “Hey, D!” 44 �But he came straight from ABC, and he sat in my living room, and I said “What,” and I said, “Have yous a shot of Jack Daniels and what is it?” And he said, “Well I talked to Charles Watson, who’s the executive producer, and he’s looking for a cohost of Like It Is for Geraldo,” because Geraldo was gonna cohost with Gil Noble and it was Melba Moore. Melba Moore -- was it [01:14:00] Melba Moore? Melba Moore was the actress. I know her last name was Moore. Melba Tolliver, Melba Tolliver and Gil and then Geraldo, so I told him to call you, “Well I had to go to the hospital to have minor, minor surgery done.” So I called Watson, I said, “Listen.” Pedro -- he called me and I said, “Look, I just came from the hospital. And I had -- I’m gonna be at home for about a week and a half.” I said, “Would you like to come to my apartment and you’ll do the interview here, is that cool? And I’ll make you a Puerto Rican meal.” We ended up becoming dear friends, he hired me on board, and he had told me, he says, “I’ve never felt -- this is an interview where I’m the one that’s nervous.” I said, “But why?” He says, “Because I’ve never met a woman like you.” I say, “Well I don’t think I’m that incredible.” But he was just such a sweet man, with a lot of integrity. So I came onboard, and Geraldo had just won the Peabody Award for his piece on the mental health unit, so that’s like the Oscars [01:15:00] of television, and he refused to be on camera with me. So then I got hired as the associate producer of Like It Is, so then I worked with Gil, and ended up -- the funniest thing is that a friend -JJ: [But?] this was before you went to jail, right, or --? DP: No, honey. Before I went to jail, hello, this is 1968! 45 �JJ: So why didn’t he want to --? DP: Because I think he felt that I had much more camera experience than he did. JJ: Oh, I see. DP: Remember, I was on television since I was five years old. I’m not afraid of a camera, as you can see. I know how to talk to the camera, work with the camera, and be with the camera, so. So he did me a favor because I learned how to do production, so I worked for Like It Is for a while, and then Charles came up to me and was very honest, he said, “Dylcia, we love you, come on board.” I did the piece on Adam Clayton Powell, who his son is a very dear friend of mine, Adam Clayton Powell Jr., who’s now an elected official in East Harlem. The fourth, [01:16:00] ’cause he’s Adam Powell IV. But, he said, “The show is gonna go totally Black. And we made a commitment that our staff would be all --” I said, “I have no problems with that.” That’s said and done, but I learned the ropes of what does -- how do networks work, you know, working in what you call... Make-believe television with the little cameras, like, running around with the old video camera that had a big box. This is real, real television. So, we realized, there was a group called, I forget their title but they had just sued the networks demanding Black programming. And we have -- well, we always had a group over in East Harlem that were activists, artists, some of them were elected officials, but they were our people, and then we always were independentistas, we fought for the release of the Puerto Rican nationalists, so we created a group called the Puerto Rican Education Media -- [01:17:00] Education and Action Council. And what we decided to do was sue the 46 �networks. So we got college students and for six months, we studied television. All the networks, every day. What was the image of the Puerto Rican? Well, we concluded that it was not a positive image. First of all, there was no Puerto Rican programming. There was no positive image, all they had was the crime reports and that was it. So, we sued the networks, and at that time we had friends that had a cute nightclub in East Harlem, it was like the hot scene. It was like Studio 54 but for East Harlem. Christopher’s. What we did is we brought the presidents of the networks to negotiate at Christopher’s. Puerto Rican meal, we hit the whole works, Puerto Ricans, that’s how we are, you know that. They were very impressed. And then we had -- it was a two-story facility, so a lot of the big bands would come and play. So that night we invited them to bring their wives after the event ’cause we had a dinner for them, so then the wives would call me, [01:18:00] “Listen is Tom or John there? Can I come over to hang out? Oh, marvelous!” We didn’t do those negotiations so that we could hang out with the wives of the presidents of the networks, we did it to get a program! Nothing happened, everything was left in the [billions?]. All right. One afternoon, we had a meeting and we remembered -- we found out that WNET was having its telethon. So we said, “This is it.” We organized a march in front of WNET’s office, which is on 58th Street right off by Columbus Circle, and then we went to the studio on 55th Street and took over the telethon. In walked in José Rivera, the assemblyman, he was then a union organizer, Jorge Soto, who’s in the other life, painter, myself, Piri Thomas, Frank Espada, Humberto Cintrón. We took over the network, we took over the telethon, and guess what? They didn’t know 47 �what else to do, John Jay Iselin [01:19:00] gave us 1.5 million to start a new series, so we called it “Realidades”. And I really believe that they said, “These Puerto Ricans don’t know what they’re doing,” oh, little did they know. We came to Puerto Rico and got our own -- Puerto Rico had a DGA car, which is Director’s Guild of America, ’cause that’s required. Went to New York City, Pablo Cabrera had done the best entertainment programs and culture here in Puerto Rico. And we hire -- everybody had to be either Latino or Black. And we created our crew, we paid them what everybody pays, and we did the local series, and the 17 shows, of which I produced 11, I went for an interview and ended up being the first Puerto Rican television producer. From there I went to... Where did I go from there? I went to a newspaper, I became the editor of the first bilingual newspaper in East -- in New York City called “El Tiempo”. I got bored doing the columns, I created a gossip column called [01:20:00] Bochinche and had a ball. Herman Badillo was running for mayor, and the nationalists, we were in the middle of the campaign so I intertwined both things. Miriam Colón called me -JJ: [You mean?] Herman [Padillo?] with the [nationalists?]? DP: No, Herman Badillo. JJ: Herman Badillo. DP: Herman, Herman, yeah. Not no nationalist, Herman Badillo was running for mayor of the city of New York. JJ: And you said you interconnected them? DP: I interconnected in my column, Bochinche, Casa. JJ: Okay, Casa. 48 �DP: The campaign for the release of the five nationalists and Herman running for mayor. Two opposite ends. But how do you get consciousness in people? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: But nobody wanted to be -- no one, Herman, and he just wrote this horrible book three years ago. JJ: I actually (inaudible) helped him get his security [when?] Harold Washington. DP: Oh, really? JJ: He was coming, he was up, [in?] Harold Washington. Sounds like you don’t know (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: No. The book he published two years ago about Puerto Ricans -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [working for?] Harold Washington at that time. (laughs) DP: I don’t ca-- I mean, I’ve known everybody. I’m a good friend of many elected officials, (inaudible). [01:21:00] I know Congressman Serrano very well, I know Nydia Velázquez very well, her, I have a lot of respect, and [Joe?], because they all took, and Gutierrez, they supported our campaign. José Rivera, incredible man. I mean, he’s been -- what didn’t he do for Vieques? He got arrested in Vieques, he’s done films, you know. That’s what I call an elected official, that’s, you know, that’s a big difference than when you write a book that criticizes your people. He could not even speak Spanish, but that’s another interview we’ll do. We’ll do a whole story on all my -- overview of political officials. So, I told the mess-- I sent the message, I said, “Listen, guys, we’re doing a fundraiser in Manhattan Center, and I got 19 bands to perform, from Ray Barretto, to 49 �(inaudible),” you name it, they performed for me to raise money. I got Jerry Masucci from Fania Records to give me a thousand LPs that I auctioned off. I didn’t do it. Julio Pabón, who runs Latino Sports, he belonged to a political organization, they [01:22:00] assigned it to me, he tells everybody, “She made me get on stage and auction albums! That’s how I learned how to do public speaking,” he tells everyone. Well, at ten o’clock, I told him, “At ten o’clock I want --” Herman, that night, was having a fundraiser for his campaign. I said, “At ten o’clock I want everybody at Manhattan Center.” 10:30, guess what, all the Puerto Rican leaders walked in their tuxedos, everybody shelled out their money, and we took 63 buses for the campaign for the release of our five nationalists. That’s how you do journalism, that’s how you create consciousness. You never forget what the importance of our struggle is about. I don’t say it because I think I’m so bad, I think people have to, you know, young people are listening to this. If you’re studying -- whatever you’re studying, you wanna do, do it with integrity, but don’t forget who you are, where you came from. Remember that where you come from, you owe them, and you have to go back and help build, and we have to [01:23:00] learn as Puerto Ricans to build our own institutions. I think that’s the downfall of our nation, that we’ve forgotten that we need to build our own institutions so that we don’t depend on anyone and we can do that. You know? So that’s how my career started, from there I went to Boston to do Infinity Factory, which is a series on math phobia, and I came here. JJ: Math phobia, what is that? DP: Math phobia is when children have problems learning math. 50 �JJ: Oh, math (inaudible) DP: So what we did was we took everyday activities, and we worked with mathematicians from MIT, and the head mathematician was the gentleman who had created the atomic clock, and they would give us the strands and we would do the creative and ethnic... Reality. Plus we had a history section, so I created -- I did all the Puerto Rican history. And then in doing the segments, ’cause we had a segment that was shot upstate New York, and there was a [01:24:00] young woman that was a little girl, she was a little girl, who ended up -- who used to say, who ended up doing fame. She was the little girl in the show. And then the Mexican groups had a group in LA. There was no Puerto Rican segments, so I came to Puerto Rico for 27 days to create Puerto Rican segments and I shot here where I live in Loíza, the festival, which at that time was an extravaganza. Well what I did was, I integrated our master mathsman, because as an artist he uses the concept, a mathematical strand called estimation, but I integrated the festival, so he taught the children of the town how to make the math so they could participate in the fiesta, and then I was able to integrate the whole fiesta. So they got to see the whole aspect within a cultural term. I talked about don Pedro, because when don Pedro Albizu Campos spoke, the Nationalist Party had to figure out how many people would be there, how many flyers did they have, that’s estimation. You know, and measurement, [01:25:00] you have to measure the amount of paper that you have to use and how many pieces you -- how much money you spend. So we had to integrate mathematical strands, but I integrated them within a historical Puerto Rican perspective. Came back to New York and I 51 �worked at CBS, show called “Channel 2 the People”. (inaudible) concert with Felipe Luciano that worked at the same show and ended up having the same phone extension, because when we talked from prison, I told him, I said, “Brother, you know what? I’m calling my own phone number.” And he started laughing. So I did “Channel 2 the People”, and I have to say that my career in the public world, in television, since I’ve worked for all the networks and public television, I can say with a lot of integrity that I’ve never exploited my people, I never did stories that were negative about my people, on the contrary. And before I was arrested, [01:26:00] I had the first film and photography school in East Harlem. I had a school in East Harlem, I had gotten half a million dollars from the Department of Labor, and my idea was to create our own film school. Take that initial money and that, get our own people in the business to become members of the board and help us raise money independently so that we could have our own school. Unfortunately, William Morales was my partner at the time and he got arrested and I was subpoenaed to the grand jury and I was two months pregnant. So I spent my nine months of pregnancy under the pretense of going into prison. But I refused to testify, on the grounds that, you know, you don’t support grand juries. You know, you have integrity, you don’t support a grand jury. Plus grand juries have always been used as a witch hunt for the Puerto Rican independence movement. We have a long trajectory of the history of that. If you go to el centro -- “hunter centro dot org”, open up the FBI [01:27:00] files and you’re able to read the whole history, all the FBI files, we have ’em there at the centro files. What happens then? Well, I get a phone call 52 �that the nationalists are being released, and I’m honored to say that in three days I organized a private reception for them and El Museo del Barrio was receiving Lolita Lebrón, Oscar Collazo, Irvin Flores, and Rafael Cancel Miranda. In New York, in El Museo del Barrio which was then ours, now it’s no longer ours because we’ve lost it, it no longer belongs to the Puerto Rican community. I don’t care what anybody tells me, that’s my position because I’m one of the founders of that museum. JJ: Briefly, if you can -- I -- DP: No, I don’t wanna talk about that. Let’s leave it there. Yeah, no. The Museo del Barrio is the Museo del Barrio but it doesn’t belong to our community like it initially was initiated and how it was worked for, many, [01:28:00] many years -four decades ago. But again, sometimes we make concessions and we can’t concede when it comes to our culture and our art, because that’s ours and we have to learn how to control that. Three days after they were released, I went to clandestinity, and I went with my son, and I was arrested a year, some-odd later, April 4th, 1980. JJ: I didn’t hear, you went into where? DP: I went into clandestinity. Somewhere in the world with a different name and my child. My child was five and a half months old. And that’s history, and now I’m in freedom, and I’m working on creating my home into a project called “Casa Loíza”, which will be a place of having workshops of healing and political consciousness, and since I have a beach and a river, it’s a way of remaking a living, and maybe you wanna come and spend a weekend or a week to write, you 53 �can do it here in my house. I have a foundation, you can visit it on my website, [01:29:00] and if anyone wants to make any donations, they’re more than willing to. I mentioned it before so we’ll put it at the end and people can come and visit. I’m working on a documentary for the last eight years called “Women Mujeres [n?]” on the five Puerto Rican nationalist women, which include Blanca Canales, who headed the revolt in Jayuya, 1950. Isabel Rosado, who’s 104 years old and alive and well. Carmen Perez who passed away five years ago. Doris Torresola, who was the youngest member of the party who’s now in the other existence. And of course our Lolita Lebrón. So I need a little bit more money to finish the last segment to make a trailer, it’s a major project, it’s a two-hour version, ’cause you have to honor five incredible women and I’m not doing it in two minutes, I have to tell the real story, so it has music, dance, poetry. And I write my own poetry and I create my mask, and my sculptures. And in July, here in Carolina, Puerto [01:30:00] Rico in [el Museo del Titecure?], I’m part of the association of plastic artists and I’m having an exhibit of my casica and reinas sculptures. And I’m working on my book so hopefully next year, watch out, it’s coming out! It’s called “Seditious [Love?]”. I’m (inaudible) this year. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yeah. JJ: You were in jail, and then you had a little... I’ve heard you had a lot of time to think, and so one of the things it looks like you’re doing is the film. Still with the film. But I mean, what -- DP: How did I keep myself busy? I told you. 54 �JJ: Not how did you keep yourself busy, but what do you think that the movement should be doing, in terms of -- you mentioned that the struggle continues, what does that mean? DP: Right now. Oh. JJ: What does (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Well, the struggle continues, we have to create -- I think with the assassination of Filiberto Ojeda Rios five and a half years ago, I think the United States government thought [01:31:00] that by assassinating him, that our movement would die, on the contrary. That was the most incredible funeral you’ve ever wanted to attend. It took us five and a half hours from San Juan to Hormigueros, which is an hour and a half, two-hour ride. But why? ’Cause the streets were filled with people. Children in the school courtyards were standing up with their fists up. “FBI assassins!” Old people, young people, even govern-- even the police, as the hearse passed, the police would salute him. That’s to tell you something. I remember, many of my interviews that I did while I was incarcerated, they would ask me, “Do the people support armed struggle?” And I said, “Well, in an island 35 by 100, there’s a man called Filiberto Ojeda Rios who’s been in clandestinity for 23 years, and he’s never been captured.” And I think that’s an example of how our people do support real heroes [01:32:00] and heroines in our nation. I think what has to happen here is that the leaders of our movement, they’re all mostly older people, mostly men, I have to be very critical of that, too. And they have to come down from their little levels of powers, their little towers of power even though they’re not that acclaimed, but anyway. We 55 �have to let the young people take over. We can be their facilitators. We can learn -- we can show them the mistakes we’ve made, how we can grow together, but we need their voices to lead our nation. I think when we begin to do that, and we’ve begun it in a small scale, what now the Nationalist Party is doing, we’re rejuvenating the party because for so many years all the party was doing is bringing flowers to our dead heroes and heroines, that’s not how you build a nation. You build a nation by getting involved in your community, by creating consciousness. Learning about their real history, that’s how our people -- that’s how you gain consciousness [01:33:00] because if you know you come from a fighting element, that you have warrior genes, then you’re gonna learn that you can struggle to make change happen. But until you know that, until you know who your essence is, and where is it you come from, and who are the people that really make up your real history, then you have a base, then you have that foundation that says, “[Oh no?], I’m strong, and yes, we can win.” And I believe it’s happening, but it’s gonna take a lot more work ’cause I also think technology has moved us away from our old organizing techniques. People have gotten kinda lazy with technology. You do not organize people by sending them emails. You’ve gotta go door by door and you have to knock. People -- look in your eyes. When you talk to someone, and you can talk in their eyes, and you see them, it’s that human relationship. You can’t help but feeling what that person is sharing with you. And that’s where I think consciousness [01:34:00] gets built and that connection occurs. So I think that’s what we have to do. JJ: Okay. And any final thoughts? Any more final thoughts? 56 �DP: Final thoughts is that I think, I believe that one way we can... There’s a lot of violence in Puerto Rico today, and it doesn’t come from a nature of who we are, it comes from what we’re surrounded with, it comes from a government that has put together, I mean, I keep criticizing, but I have to. How do you make the former head -- two heads of police are former heads of the FBI, and think that you’re gonna create a relationship with the police department that handles -works humanly with the people? We’ve just witnessed what the police did to our students, who were just demonstrating, and they were badass; kicked, they were beaten, they were bruised, they were put in jail. [01:35:00] We have to create a healing process for our nation, and I’m not talking about a prayer circle, I’m not talking a prayer march. I think it’s about creating a new consciousness of struggle, which talks about our human concerns, which reaches out to people like I said earlier. That’s how we create change, that’s how we create a new society for our people. And our young people need to be on it because a lot of these young people are doing great things, you know? Unfortunately they don’t get the news, because everybody wants to hear about all the murders that occur. Crime doesn’t occur by miracle, it creates by the society -- the conditions that society, those that control the society establish. And that’s what we have to do, we have to do it, we have to create an environment where our kids can learn, and institutions that are ours. We have to get young people to love our Earth, to grow, we can grow our own food, ’cause we’re gonna have to, ’cause stuff is getting too -- [01:36:00] it’s worse in prison, I used to pay 50 cents for a tomato, you know, on the black market, and here it’s almost 75! So we have to learn how 57 �to survive as we did before, and put all that other stuff that -- we get bombarded, you know, with all the technology, all the YouTube and the television and all this stuff. We’ve been bombarded to believe that we can have all these things, but that’s not what makes you happy, what makes you happy is having a quality life. With essence, with integrity, and a spirit of winning. And I think that’s what we have to do. We have to really internalize that we’re a nation of warriors, and that we can win, and that we are fighters, both men and women. And gays, you know, I think it’s wonderful that the president came forward, but that doesn’t change the federal laws, but here in Puerto Rico we’ve moved a bit forward, but we haven’t moved where we should be. We have to make a new awareness of AIDS. [01:37:00] There are no public announcements in Puerto Rico about AIDS, very few, and our kids -- people have AIDS, we’ve had difficulty getting medications, we have difficulty AIDS patients surviving, difficulty getting funding for adequate funding for good programs for our people, and they’re not all young people, we’re finding a major percentile of new AIDS patients that are above 40 and 45 years old. So there’s a reality in our society, and only we can make it heal. And we can heal it with commitment, with dignity, and continuity. Viva Puerto Rico libre. END OF VIDEO AUDIO FILE 58 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4759ee8b13d3e3a7738c7db828cd3c3c.mp4 f9e61a12f1f8b86ffb97f8d1ca38b0de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Dylcia Noemi Pagán vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Dylcia Pagán nació a padres puertorriqueños en 1946 en Lincoln Hospital en los Bronx de Nueva York y creció en el East Harlem. Se hizo una estrella infantil siendo parte de “Children’s Hour” en NBC. A los 20 años perdió sus padres y se convirtió un activista, trabajando con registraciones de votes y también con la Community Development Agency (CDA) que evalúa programas de pobreza en Nueva York. En 1969, Señora Pagán decidió atender Brookly College donde ayudo a fundir el Puerto Rican Student Union que resulto con la formación de un Departamento de estudias puertorriqueñas que es controlado por los estudiantes (todavía existe hoy). Señora Pagán continuó una carera en la media de comunicación y fue la primera productora puertorriqueña en la ciudad de Nueva York. Trabajo como productora, escritora y cineasta desarrollando documentarias investigas y programas de niños en cada estación mayor de televisión. También trabajo con un editor Ingles para el primer periódico bilingüe en la cuidad, El Tiempo, y también escribió una sección de ese mismo periódico. En 1978 un Gran Jurado dio una citación para que Pagán daría un testifico en conexión con el arresto de su compañero, William Morales. Durante este tiempo estaba tres meses embarazada con su hijo Guillermo y rechazo testificar. En 1979 se escondo con su hijo. La arrestaron en 1980 y la cargaron con sedicioso de conspiración por pelear por la independencia de Puerto Rico y recibió una condona de 63 años encarceladas. Después de una campaña larga en los Estados Unidos, Puerto Rico, e internacional Presidente Bill Clinton le dio el Presidential Conditional Clemency a Pagán y 9 otros, el 10 de Septiembre, 1999. Ahora vive y trabaja en Puerto Rico. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivera_Dylcia Title A name given to the resource Dylcia Noemi Pagán interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pagán, Dylcia Description An account of the resource Dylcia Pagán was born to Puerto Rican parents in 1946 at Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, New York City and raised in East Harlem. She became a child star, performing every week on NBC’s “Children’s Hour.” After losing her parents at the age of 20, she became an activist, participating in voter registration drives and working for the Community Development Agency (CDA) evaluating poverty programs throughout the City of New York. In 1969, Ms. Pagán decided to attend Brooklyn College where she co-founded the Puerto Rican Student Union that resulted in the formation of a student-controlled Puerto Rican Studies Department that is still in existence today. She continued a long career in media, becoming the first Puerto Rican woman television producer in New York City. Ms. Pagán has worked as a producer, writer, and filmmaker, developing investigative documentaries and children’s program on nearly every major television network. She also worked as the English editor for the city’s first bilingual daily newspaper, El Tiempo, and authored a popular daily column in that same paper.In 1978, Ms. Pagán was subpoenaed by a Grand Jury to testify in connection with the arrest of her companion, William Morales. At the time, she was three months pregnant with her son, Guillermo, and she refused to testify. Sometime in 1979 she went underground with her son. She was arrested in 1980, charged with seditious conspiracy for fighting for the independence of Puerto Rico, and was sentenced to 63 years in prison. She was released from prison on September 10, 1999 after a long campaign in the United States, Puerto Rico, and internationally pressured President Bill Clinton to give she and nine of her co-defendants a Presidential Conditional Clemency. She lives and works in Puerto Rico. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b15ec73781bab2270acb44dea36e6a4.jpg f09ea0ce2fbf26f548395648d35073c3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naval Recognition Training Slides Subject The topic of the resource Slides Military education Airplanes, Military--Recognition Warships--Recognition World War, 1939-1945 Description An account of the resource Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1943-1953 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-50_M1243 Title A name given to the resource E class light cruiser Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Navy Description An account of the resource E class British (light cruiser), 18, July 5, 1943. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945 Military education Warships--Recognition Slides Great Britain Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Naval recognition slides (RHC-50) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1943-07-05 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3916065f572c315687f9b64bff705687.jpg e4e1bb6468ba159a727cc5627569eb6e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_FilmPacks_V_18_007 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938-09-10 Title A name given to the resource E of Riviere au Reynard Gaspe Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a dirt road with a town visible in the background. Hills and another town can be seen in the distance. Subject The topic of the resource Québec Gaspé (Québec) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b4a6efbd9b99707c9e2a22634dcba77.jpg 0a2c60374659c549dd4ef1d102bf15f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_B060-0008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1961-07-25 Title A name given to the resource E.J. Radio Center, Holland Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph featuring the storefront of "E.J. Radio Center" located in Holland, Michigan, as taken on July 25, 1961. In the photograph, a woman can be seen pushing a baby stroller on the sidewalk in front of the building. Photograph by Douglas R. Gilbert. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Holland (Mich.) Central business districts Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/45570c902290f382d7c6769d630b9555.mp3 73fae8d19d2d674533215086c43d3867 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Eastertide IV Series From Proclaimer To the One Proclaimed Scripture Text Acts 3:19-22, Phil. 2:6-7, 9-11 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19920510 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-05-10 Title A name given to the resource E.T.? Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on May 10, 1992 entitled "E.T.?", as part of the series "From Proclaimer To the One Proclaimed", on the occasion of Eastertide IV, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Acts 3:19-22, Phil. 2:6-7, 9-11. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da71b144204cee7ac1889a0ce20e8819.jpg bd10139c652fc6df60f68da48155cb6e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46ba1c0a929c728988dad9ca01090313.jpg 8a39bca22736d585774760958e0fd026 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eagle and shield Description An account of the resource Design of eagle and shield in red, black and blue on white envelope. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-49_PE066 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Postal service--United States--History Covers (Philatety)--United States--History Patriotic envelopes Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9fde7304c31524ee3169f8a5068f517f.jpg 7743313bbd5fbec48ae29704b9cb5551 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a49aa9980770d0fff0015f6a9bff45c9.jpg 537e80713e7627f875e02845932590a3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eagle and shield Description An account of the resource Design of eagle and shield in full color on white envelope. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-49_PE067 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Postal service--United States--History Covers (Philatety)--United States--History Patriotic envelopes Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8be03058e190ce6e382a693f4a5e6b4.jpg ab72ecab3bb6820a20b66bac82cc9e3b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-Red-Misc-24 Title A name given to the resource Eagle Hall Description An account of the resource A back and white photo of a scene being performed. Two men and a woman who are dressed in all black pose with bowler hats in front of a sign that reads "Eagle Hall." Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Community theater Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digital file collected by the Kutsche Office of Local History from the Saugatuck Douglas History Center for the Stories of Summer project. Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c883c17b8aa5aaa5e3dc63730e72b43c.jpg f966e45b1c4caf4e4b26f546b2ec822e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e1459f0f6ef3de4830cc23245cfcddd0.jpg db2b98dc4252c25ce9bfeacbd694fb2d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eagle with shield Description An account of the resource Design shows eagle with shield and "The Union, The Constitution and the Enforcement of the Laws.". Design in red and blue on white envelope. Envelope is addressed to Miss Caroline Tillotson, stamped and cancelled. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-49_PE151 Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Postal service--United States--History Covers (Philatety)--United States--History Patriotic envelopes Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e673a7f84fa3f401425dc2346553466.jpg e60d4548cd01e63ff59c631c2f94cfaa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Concert & Event Posters Subject The topic of the resource Posters Events Michigan Universities & colleges--Michigan Description An account of the resource Division of Student Services provides programs, services, and environments that enhance the personal, social, and intellectual growth of undergraduate and graduate students at the University. Events including concerts were managed by the office of Student Life. Posters for music, speakers, poetry readings and other campuswide events are included. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Division of Student Services Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV028-06 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1963 – 1981 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV028-06_Eagles Title A name given to the resource Eagles, May 26, 1974 Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Grand Valley State College Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities & colleges--Michigan Events Posters Description An account of the resource Eagles, in the GVSC Fieldhouse, May 26, 1974 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/106">Student Services concerts, events, and posters files, (GV028-06)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b84cf284b1d55acb5298c445f9761e23.pdf 32f2e1bf6d12a77f60680c30a484c0f1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Cold War Era Michael Eames Total Time – (07:15) Background    He was born in Buffalo, New York – May 14, 1959 (01:31) His grandfather was born in Ireland o He traveled to New York City where he became a policeman (01:48) He has one older brother Enlistment/Training – (02:25)      He decided to enlist into the Army because he wanted to become a chef (02:26) o He wanted to receive the G.I. so he could pay to become a chef He graduated in June, 1977 and was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey in July (03:04) Basic training was extremely structured (03:11) o It had a lot of training – training with machine guns, grenades, anti-nuclear and anti-terrorist training It was much easier to learn how to cook than it was to do military training (03:32) He was able to learn a lot about hospital diets Active Duty – (03:50)     In January, 1978 he was sent to the Second General Hospital in Landstuhl, Germany (04:00) o It is the largest hospital in Europe The patient level was typically 150-350 patients (04:14) o They had to deliver hot meals 3 times a day He once served General Alexander Haig who commanded all of the troops in Europe He would talk to his parents on the phone (05:14) o When talking, he had to say “over and out” or the connection would not go through (05:18) o He was able to write a lot of letters After the Service – (05:05)   He was released from the service in June, 1980 (05:30) He attended the Culinary Institute of America Hyde Park (05:39) �   o The G.I. Bill was extremely useful He graduated in 1982(05:58) He was then hired in Sun Valley Resort in Idaho to become the head chef (06:03) The Army taught him a lot about life, people, and knowing himself � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eames, Michael (Interview outline), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eames, Michael Description An account of the resource Michael Eames was born in 1959 in Buffalo, New York. He decided to enlist into the Army so that he could utilize the G.I. Bill and eventually become a chef. Michael spent time in basic training learning how to use machine guns and grenades while also receiving anti-nuclear and anti-terrorist training. He was then sent to Landstuhl, Germany where he served in the Second General Hospital. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Beering, Ryan (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-28 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EamesM1414V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a74fe9583aa681126d8ee4015f28a230.jpg 03ab2e441c25dd1d6e2eb98696ba11e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EardlyCharles Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Eardly, Charles Description An account of the resource Charles Eardly, Admissions Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/960d08532fa02bd680223dd19e2a1f69.jpg ab41baa78defd86e926d09921b5341aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_D051-0041 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1963-02-05 Title A name given to the resource Earl Wrightson and Lois Hunt Concert at MSU Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of an Earl Wrightson and Lois Hunt concert held at Michigan State University. The operatic duo had a partnership that lasted nearly forty years. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan State University East Lansing (Mich.) Hunt, Lois, 1925-2009 Wrightson, Earl Concerts Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78c3cc9f3af18a8846fc82464223965f.jpg c6e8a7a3f8cdd9c04e6775e3d6fc35d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_D051-0042 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1963-02-05 Title A name given to the resource Earl Wrightson and Lois Hunt Concert at MSU Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of an Earl Wrightson and Lois Hunt concert held at Michigan State University. The operatic duo had a partnership that lasted nearly forty years. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan State University East Lansing (Mich.) Hunt, Lois, 1925-2009 Wrightson, Earl Concerts Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ffb3e738f8a2da657ee179a6110f7198.jpg 269872c1ff53a6b82421c6c263466f88 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_D052-0033 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1963-02-05 Title A name given to the resource Earl Wrightson and Lois Hunt Concert at MSU Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Lois Hunt getting ready backstage before an "Earl Wrightson and Lois Hunt" concert held at Michigan State University. The operatic duo had a partnership that lasted nearly forty years. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan State University East Lansing (Mich.) Hunt, Lois, 1925-2009 Wrightson, Earl Concerts Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives