264 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d152b9e666495029230dc19042e769c3.jpg ef43194adc1a79bbc61f926dca1f311e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Platte, Richard Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs and a scrapbook pertaining to the 126th Infantry, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division of the U.S. Army. Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the U.S. Army, 32nd Infantry "Red Arrow" Division, 126th 3rd Battalion, Headquarters Company. The company trained for the war in Europe at Camp Livingston, Louisiana in 1941 and conducted maneuvers near Camp Beauregard. In the spring of 1942 the 32nd Division sailed to the South Pacific and settled in Australia. The 126th Regiment was organized into a combat team and was the first of U.S. forces dispatched to Port Moresby in New Guinea. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection (RHC-99) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army. Infantry Division, 32nd United States. Army. Infantry Regiment, 126th World War, 1939-1945 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Still image Text Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99_Platte_007_1941 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unknown Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Title A name given to the resource Members of 126th Infantry peeling potatoes, 1941 Description An account of the resource Three members of the Headquarters Company, 126th Infantry, peeling potatoes Camp Livingston, Louisiana. Rear is inscribed "Can you find me? I would enjoy this darling if I were with you." Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army World War, 1939-1945 United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/635">Richard Platte Red Arrow Division Collection, (RHC-99)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e37886a690e5715f66959adc5e26482a.jpg a2d6e49ae23a23c53a7ff92fe67ae31a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Platte, Richard Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs and a scrapbook pertaining to the 126th Infantry, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division of the U.S. Army. Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the U.S. Army, 32nd Infantry "Red Arrow" Division, 126th 3rd Battalion, Headquarters Company. The company trained for the war in Europe at Camp Livingston, Louisiana in 1941 and conducted maneuvers near Camp Beauregard. In the spring of 1942 the 32nd Division sailed to the South Pacific and settled in Australia. The 126th Regiment was organized into a combat team and was the first of U.S. forces dispatched to Port Moresby in New Guinea. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection (RHC-99) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army. Infantry Division, 32nd United States. Army. Infantry Regiment, 126th World War, 1939-1945 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Still image Text Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99_Platte_006_1941 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unkown Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Title A name given to the resource Walter Plaska, Richard Platte and Stephen Kraut, 1941 Description An account of the resource Three members of the Headquarters Company, 126th Infantry, photographed at Camp Livingston, Louisiana. Left to right: Walter Plaska, Richard Platte, Stephen Kraut Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army World War, 1939-1945 United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/635">Richard Platte Red Arrow Division Collection, (RHC-99)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/60f9287cfe99bb4e499281c3428dbbe8.jpg a2defc1e771341b389038e3ff7146261 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Platte, Richard Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs and a scrapbook pertaining to the 126th Infantry, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division of the U.S. Army. Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the U.S. Army, 32nd Infantry "Red Arrow" Division, 126th 3rd Battalion, Headquarters Company. The company trained for the war in Europe at Camp Livingston, Louisiana in 1941 and conducted maneuvers near Camp Beauregard. In the spring of 1942 the 32nd Division sailed to the South Pacific and settled in Australia. The 126th Regiment was organized into a combat team and was the first of U.S. forces dispatched to Port Moresby in New Guinea. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection (RHC-99) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army. Infantry Division, 32nd United States. Army. Infantry Regiment, 126th World War, 1939-1945 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Still image Text Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99_Platte_004_1941_DeVormer Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Unknown Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Title A name given to the resource PFC Earl De Vormer, Camp Livinston, La., 1941 Description An account of the resource PFC Earl De Vormer, 126th Infantry, at Camp Livingston, Lousiana Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army World War, 1939-1945 United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/635">Richard Platte Red Arrow Division Collection, (RHC-99)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56dc68a1f4db8b4d5ee63dd0bc720700.jpg 5d73c2629677866c9a0b957c4d6c810a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Platte, Richard Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs and a scrapbook pertaining to the 126th Infantry, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division of the U.S. Army. Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the U.S. Army, 32nd Infantry "Red Arrow" Division, 126th 3rd Battalion, Headquarters Company. The company trained for the war in Europe at Camp Livingston, Louisiana in 1941 and conducted maneuvers near Camp Beauregard. In the spring of 1942 the 32nd Division sailed to the South Pacific and settled in Australia. The 126th Regiment was organized into a combat team and was the first of U.S. forces dispatched to Port Moresby in New Guinea. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection (RHC-99) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army. Infantry Division, 32nd United States. Army. Infantry Regiment, 126th World War, 1939-1945 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Still image Text Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99_Platte_003_1941-08-01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Newcomb Photo Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-08-01 Title A name given to the resource Portrait of Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte in uniform, 1941 Description An account of the resource Hand-colored portrait of Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte in uniform, by Newcomb. Front is inscribed "Newcomb Photo" and "All My Love, Dick" rear is inscribed "To My Darling whom I will never forget and stop loving. Aug 1, 1941 Camp Livingston, La." Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army World War, 1939-1945 United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/635">Richard Platte Red Arrow Division Collection, (RHC-99)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/630e01976e0a5079f9d3f7a883bad344.jpg bbe078ab238ac1064226996fe493611d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Platte, Richard Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs and a scrapbook pertaining to the 126th Infantry, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division of the U.S. Army. Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the U.S. Army, 32nd Infantry "Red Arrow" Division, 126th 3rd Battalion, Headquarters Company. The company trained for the war in Europe at Camp Livingston, Louisiana in 1941 and conducted maneuvers near Camp Beauregard. In the spring of 1942 the 32nd Division sailed to the South Pacific and settled in Australia. The 126th Regiment was organized into a combat team and was the first of U.S. forces dispatched to Port Moresby in New Guinea. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection (RHC-99) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army. Infantry Division, 32nd United States. Army. Infantry Regiment, 126th World War, 1939-1945 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Still image Text Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99_Platte_002_1941_126th Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Army Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1942 Title A name given to the resource Headquarters Company, 126th Infantry Description An account of the resource 75 members of Headquarters Company, 126th Infantry photographed in Australia. First Row, left to right: PFC. Jesse Martin, PFC. Harold Weinrich, PVT. James St. Peter, PFC. John Johnson, PFC. Claude Martin, SGT. William Harshima, PFC. Merlin Young, CPL. Henry Koster, CPL. Gerald L. Harvey, PFC. Gaylord Hall, PVT. Ira S. McKay, PFC. Lou B.H. Fox, SGT. James Tompert, SGT. Walter Hill, SGT. Herbert Gardner, PFC. Robert Kruthaupt, and CPL. Allan Walton. Second Row, left to right: PFC. Louis J. Pellerin, PFC. James Robinson, PFC. Joseph Ravetta, PFC. Walter Bajdek, PVT. George Fomin, PFC. Harvey Hill, CPL. Leonard Bolle, SGT. Steven Kraut, CPL. Theodore Olinger, PFC. Ora E. Ramsey, PFC. Jerome Schulty, CPL. Richard Ross, PFC. Robert Durbin, PVT. Harold Pageler, SGT. John Quakkelaar, CPL. Minor Edwards, PFC. Maurice Carpenter, and PVT. Ferd Radenslaben. Third Row, left to right: CPL. Francis Plotzka, CPL. Elden Anderson, Staff SGT. Stanley Ketchel, SGT. Albert Rabaskas, SGT. Robert Eckberg, PFC. Earl De Vormer, PFC. John J. Glowicki, PVT. Jack Carmichael, PFC. Kenneth Miller, SGT. Stuart Kreger, PVT. John Peterson, PFC. Emil F. Peters, SGT. Richard Platte, Staff SGT. Richard Newton, PFC. Lester Spader, PFC. Martin Bolt, Staff SGT. Roy H. Jurgens, and SGT. Joseph Skiba. Fourth Row, left to right: Capt. J.J. Sullivan, 1st SGT. Alfred Bush, Staff SGT. Bernard Doyle, SGT. Ferdinan Ficeli, SGT. John Aeschliman, PVT. Rudolph Socha, PVT. Jerome Kozak, PVT. Walter Plaska, PVT. Harold Kelly, PFC. Joseph Tuscan, PFC. John Mulvey, PFC. Edgar McGaskill, SGT. Anthony Carowitz, PVT. Edward Zolenski, CPL. Roman Leibeck, CPL. Roger Anderson, CPL. Gerald Palmer, CPL. Roger A. Goldsmith, Tech. SGT. Joseph Kroll, SGT. Herman Steenstra, Master SGT. Abel Potts, and Capt. Woltjer. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army World War, 1939-1945 United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/635">Richard Platte Red Arrow Division Collection, (RHC-99)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36c4b9f32edbc6320bc3870edc65cde4.jpg 64cf766c6fb46a288d0601cfd16f84ee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Platte, Richard Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs and a scrapbook pertaining to the 126th Infantry, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division of the U.S. Army. Sgt. Richard "Dick" Platte, of Grand Rapids, Michigan, served in the U.S. Army, 32nd Infantry "Red Arrow" Division, 126th 3rd Battalion, Headquarters Company. The company trained for the war in Europe at Camp Livingston, Louisiana in 1941 and conducted maneuvers near Camp Beauregard. In the spring of 1942 the 32nd Division sailed to the South Pacific and settled in Australia. The 126th Regiment was organized into a combat team and was the first of U.S. forces dispatched to Port Moresby in New Guinea. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-1945 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Richard Platte Red Arrow Division collection (RHC-99) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army. Infantry Division, 32nd United States. Army. Infantry Regiment, 126th World War, 1939-1945 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Still image Text Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-99_Platte_001_1941-05-29 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spencer & Wyckoff - Detroit, Mich. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941-05-29 Title A name given to the resource 32nd Division Review, May 29, 1941 Description An account of the resource 32nd Division, 126th Infantry, Regimental Headquarters Co. - Medical - Service. Camp Livingston, Louisiana. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army World War, 1939-1945 United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/635">Richard Platte Red Arrow Division Collection, (RHC-99)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a42cf776085ca4f2471548e75f643f12.mp4 316a3c4d6b080cc13b2e6fb5271cb0ba https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ea26423f111872525bd82ab4384adea3.pdf 4454970f31735606fda33697736d32d4 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Dani | Interviewee: Lynn | Date of Interview: 7/29/2021 5:00:00 AM Danielle DeVasto: All right. So, I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, July 29, 2021, I have the pleasure of talking with Lynn McIntosh. Hi, Lynn. Thanks for being here today. Well, thanks for having me here with you, really. Lynn Macintosh: Yeah. Thank you for coming all this way. Danielle DeVasto: Lynn, can you tell us where you are from and where you currently live? Lynn Macintosh: Well, I'm actually from the east coast. I lived most of my life growing up on the east coast, Pennsylvania, New York, and I live now here in Rockford, where I've lived for, oh, 30 years. Thirty years. Danielle DeVasto: Wonderful. Wonderful. Lynn, can you please tell me a story about your experience living with PFAS? Lynn Macintosh: Thank you. Uh, my experience with PFAS is really on the discovery of it and the living in a town [CLICK SOUND] that spewed this into the river for years, for decades, and no one really say much about it, I think, because it's white and it's foamy, and when water goes thrashing over a dam and bubbles up, because although some of the __________ 00:01:26, it's like they were years ago, it's white, it's not an oil spill __________ 00:01:32. It's sudsy, suds make you think of clean, it's white, and, um, [CLICK SOUND] I didn't even notice it when I first moved here, but I started to notice it in the summer of 2009 and 2010, when I heard that this tannery, that's right behind me, location, location, location, I happened to move, uh, just east of a tannery, coming here from the east coast and not understanding that, and about that time when I was really concerned about this tanuh, this- [LIP SMACK] this, uh, approaching demolition, I started noticing it a little bit more than I had before, and they started taking pictures of the river, and I started noticing foam, and I collected them. I have a lot of them in a book here, and I sent them all over the place, uh, of these pictures of this awful, not even so much of just the foam, but this filmy, weird, um, substance that appeared frequently. I suppose this- this picture really shows what it was like because it was almost a pre-foam stage and it would just sort of sit on the river and if you threw something into it, it would make a hole and then close up, and it was really odd to me, and I started going on the river and kayaking, and I got pictures sometimes of the foam looking like this, piled up. This is a close up of that other picture that I had before. It's much better. I would see puddles like this when the ice melted. I'd see big spots of it. So, anyway, I started noticing the river, and one day, many years later, if I could have that picture again, I saw this picture from Wurtsmith in a photo, and I looked at that picture seven years later and I thought, why did they have a picture of Wolverine's foam in this article about Wurtsmith? 'Cause up til now all I could conclude was that it was a surfactant. As a citizen, I worked with Dr. Rediske, who told me how to do some basic sampling on the river, and when I would go and do my little samples, I decided to always add in checking for the surfactant level, and I had done some research about natural foams and these kinds of foams, and I knew that this foam wasn't good for the river, but I Page 1 �didn't know it was PFAS. [BANG SOUND] But I did start observing it. It's like my eyes were open to the river. I thought this is really weird, and when my- my eyes were on the river and- and my concern was for this coming demolition, so I started training myself, taking walks and observing things, uh, in that summer, and it started this avalanche of questions and deepened my concern about this approaching demolition on the tannery. I had seen that we live in a town and you're busy with young kids, you assume that your town's taking care of you and your water's safe and all that. Everyone cares and is doing their job, and after having witnessed a demolition gone awry in my own backyard with asbestos clouds flying in the air right behind me the year before and having to report that to the DEQ and going through the whole coverage of it, this lovely little home here was riddled with asbestos, as pretty as it is, and they took it all down without removing any of it. So, living in Rockford, now, in 2009 and 2010, after my two older children had graduated and one- one other daughter who, uh, was here until 2012, I said to myself, this is a tannery, this is 15 acres. It's obvious that my city doesn't care if they're actually in, they were in kind of cahoots with all. They got fined, everybody involved in that asbestos, they also got fined. Um, they had to haul it to maul it to licensed, haul it to a licenced landfill, and, um, and it was a dangerous thing to do. It was so irresponsible, and all the city did was do what happens a lot in politics, put a spin on it, downplay it, and make it out to be my fault or other people's fault, __________ 00:07:05, and that, too, was very clear. So, I got involved in researching this demolition, and I became what I like to talk about in my way of doing it, I hired myself [LAUGHTER] one day without an interview [LAUGHTER] to investigate this, and I called myself a ragtag. I was part of the ragtags. I was- I was a hub of the ragtags, and I found other citizens, friends, people I knew, who cared, people who were recently retired, [CHUCKLE] who were home during the day to come down and help me, first of all and do field investigations. I found a fisherman, who knew we called on the Islands of the Lost Soles up there. It's a shoe company and that [CHUCKLE] was the mystic. This fisherman said, "Oh, yeah, have you been north to see the Islands of the Lost Soles?" It's pretty- pretty gruesome up there, the foam and the stench and, so I went up there and, so I had one- one particular fisherman who went out with me- with me that day, and we also noticed the foamy, filmy stuff. Uh, I had a friend who I would call in the middle of the day, who was recently retired. [CHUCKLE] Sometimes I'd send him down to city hall with my camera to get photos of aerial views 'cause they didn't want to see me too much at city hall, and I didn't want to see them. So, [CHUCKLE] and he would playfully, and actually I think he meant it, try to get out of some of these things, but, um, [LAUGHTER] I was persistent, and he was a friend, so I was llike, he would say things like, "Well, I- I can't go down, I don't have a good camera." Here, take mine. "Oh." [LAUGHTER] Or, in the middle of the day, Andrew, I need you to get down to the river right now. "What's going on?" I said, there's 14 dead fish in the river right near the tannery. "So, uh, it's a little late for them." [LAUGHTER] And I said, no, no, you don't get it. This is a fish kill. I learned this phrase from the Department of Environmental Quality, have there been any fish kills? He's like, "Oh, this is a fish kill." So, I knew Andrew, I knew he was home, and I used my little flip phone, which I used in all my escapades up to 2018, actually. I had his number memorized, I called him up, and convinced him to come down with a bucket and a butterfly net Page 2 �and to reach through this grated bridge over the river using his length of arm, and he was six feet tall, so he's, like, really spread across the trail and he's scooping out dead fish for me and we're putting them in a bucket, and I'm bringing them down to the DEQ. This is forensic evidence. [CHUCKLE] I had people taking photos for me, walking around the tannery while it was going on, getting photos of dust. [LIP SMACK] I had people who would come meet me and get samples of the- of the river. I finally met someone who was troubled by it, too, and I said, yeah, I'd really like to get some sediment samples of this river and at that point, my husband had lost a lot of enthusiasm for helping me out on these ventures, especially after I lost his- his, uh, boots, his, uh, fisherman's boots, that I left in a thicket by the river, and he said, "Well, I'll go out with you," and so it was pretty much anybody who was tall and willing and able. I would they became, they joined the ragtags. Yeah, they helped me, uh, collect a lot of good evidence. So, we ended up getting sediment samples by taking PVC pipes and jamming it down in and water out. It was really exciting. Um, so, anyway, for about two years, I was running on kind of this startled, urgent energy that there's something wrong here. This demolition is not going to be safe. I was right, it wasn't, but the more I asked, the more I realized I needed to stay involved because outside my little city and my city government and my county and the Department of Environmental Quality in Grand Rapids, and my legislators, who didn't really want to be involved outside of that, when I would get to top people at the EPA or top people in other states or research by phone, they were like, "Really? Tell me that again. Well, who's the project, who's the project leader?" There isn't one. "No, there has to be one." No, there's no project leader. "Hmm, well what about the water department? Aren't they getting samples of the sediment? They can at least do that. They don't have to get on site to do that." Nope, they're declining. "Well, what about is- aren't there any incentives they can get to get compensated?" Yeah, they tried to get them to do a testing on baseline __________ 00:12:22, phase one, phase two, and they were given this amount of money, and Wolverine said, “No, thank you." Um, we knew that the people, some of the good people in DEQ were actually concerned, but nobody felt like they had the authority or wanted to step out and risk the ire of the company or even the governor at that time or any of that. So, [LIP SMACK] when our facts and our findings raised eyebrows everywhere else, we knew that we were right and then started to connect the ragtags to what I call the credibles [CHUCKLE] and A. J. Birkbeck, the environmental attorney, who represented our little group in 2010. He was a credible. He was an environmental attorney. Dr. __________ 00:13:15, who came in probably around the second half of 2012, and then full in, in 2015, 2016, was a credible, and someone from the DEQ, who was retired, which we loved people- good people who are retired, because they were now neu-, neutral and they could get involved, and Janice Tompkins heard me make a presentation at the river watershed council and I showed her a note that she was concerned, so she joined in and so, A. J. and Rick and Janice were thither were the hub of the credibles, and people respected them, so they could be the face, and Janice brought in other environmental groups, so that I could take what we found here, as the ragtags and then I would, um, I would say I was like second string on the credibles, but, you know, I was allowed into the room. We would go to Grand Valley, and meet [CHUCKLE] in- in, uh, one of the conference rooms there, and I would try to Page 3 �contain some of my angst and passion and- and enter into the rational looking over of evidence and making a plan and an agenda and carefully working through in strategic ways to make the most of what we got and never going to the media because A. J. forbid that, and he was right. We didn't go to the- the, uh, media until, I didn't go to the media until the summer of 2017. That was incredibly important to be the one living here, because I knew- I knew the lay of the land. I learned quickly to get permission to be on any property that I needed to be on to get good photographs and I knew a lot of people anyway who cared. So, I made sure I had lots of places where I could go and get photos. [CHUCKLE] And across the river, they put in this boardwalk high up, and I remember someone saying to me one day, "Oh, look at that over there. You could probably get some great photos from across the river." I'm like, oh, yeah, why didn't I see that? Uh, I found the ladder on the side of the post office and it was a ladder on the side of the shoe- shoe store. [CHUCKLE] I found all my crutches. There was a ladder I used to climb up onto my neighbor's roof of her porch right behind me, because part way during the demolition of this tannery, there's a __________ 00:16:09 and some people __________ 00:16:10 looking at birds. Um, [CHUCKLE] they- they hated that I was taking photos. So, I would- I would go right up to the fence. That didn't matter to me what this group thought of me. I wanted- I wanted photos, [CLICK SOUND] and after a while, they realized they didn't want these photos, so, they would circle at- at the start of the day, wherever they were working, they would take trucks and sort of circle the wagon, I think that's a phrase people used. Maybe it comes from the days of pioneers where you, to protect, yeah. So, they would take any truck they had, except the one that was being used and they would Lynne them up around where they were working. So, I couldn't get photos, and so then I found out [NOISE] that I could, it was higher up over here and I was, and I was up on that neighbor's roof with a good zoom camera. I could see what they were doing. And, uh, I- I taught piano lessons during that time, actually. I- I taught until my mom came out in 2013, so I do remember one day when I'm sitting here, and I'm teaching a piano lesson, and I'm very concerned in November, because I know they're getting right near an area of the tannery that I knew was bad and I'm concerned about dust clouds, and we had- we had at least made some progress with insisting on dust control, even though we didn't have site testing. Again, it was imperfect, but I knew the only way I could get, make sure that they kept up with it was to report big fugitive, fugitive dust clouds is what they called them. So, if there was a big ka-bang, and it was in this really bad part, and I was having a piano lesson, the only thing I could do was what I ended up doing. Uh, I remember the- my student's name was Casey and I- I said, Casey, I said, well, first of all, I'm sitting there in the lesson, I'm listening to her play, and I'm also half listening. You can see the window right there and like we got our ears kinda cranked out the window just waiting and I hear this huge ka-boom and I'm like, oh, my gosh. There's gonna be dust. Casey, I said, do your Mini Latin Jig three more times [CHUCKLE], practice scales, C major, G major, I'll be back in five minutes, and I ran out the back door, through my yard, into my neighbor's yard. I had thethe ladder already there, climbed up, had my camera set, ready to go and got these great photos from the November dust. I came back down, brought my camera, came back through here, as she was doing the last- the last time through in G. Oh, okay, well, let's go back to that one section and then I would just go Page 4 �on with my life. I, uh, I've used this phrase, and I think it was very true for me. They always talk about buy local so, mine was, like, buy local, spy local, it's just part of your life. If you don't have time to do this full time, [NOISE] well, just incorporate it into your life. I still get water samples and make my errands for the day, okay go shopping, drop off water samples, um, and then I would decide, let's see, I have enough money today to buy eggs and frozen vegetables and dah-dah-dah and I have enough money to buy samples to get, uh, let's see, I don't know the Michigan 10, which is the, um, metals, and that's a good deal, but it's-still don't have your $10. [LAUGHTER] So maybe today I'll just do, hmm, chromium [LAUGHTER] __________ 00:00:07. Should I add in mercury for an extra 25? Hexachrome means I have to get it there within 24 hours. No, I don't have time to do the hexa chrome today. [LAUGHTER] And so I would make these little judgment calls about what I could afford, because we actually did have to put money on the table. I have found the ragtags, uh, our group, our loosely formed group CCRR, we decided to pay the money to help us guide us and to be strategic, and that was money enormously well spent. We wouldn't have gotten where we needed to be without that. We needed A.J. Uh, Rick being a professor and a citizen. And of course we didn't pay him, but we did pay for our own samples. And we did pay, um, thousands of dollars, actually over time. And I never regret it, because you never have that moment in time again. Money is this odd thing. You go to, uh, nonprofit groups, and they're always talking about the budget and how to raise money. And, "If we had money, or if we got this grant dut dut dut dut dut dut da, then we could do this." And by the time you really need the money or you could have gotten the information, it's three years later, and it'sit's not even helpful at that point. So my dad, rascal that he was, [LAUGHTER] taught me to love the environment, taught me to not just accept no for an answer, ifif it was a no that was preventing good. And I had inherited some money. I never planned on it, never really even thought about it. And part of it I decided in honor of him I would use that money in a meaningful way to do that. It had a purpose. And my dad, before he passed away in 2011, was curious about what was happening. And it was my dad who had gotten me out into the wilds, into the rivers, swimming, and looking, loving. And it was my dad who taught me to roam, and wander, and figure it out as you go along. So I was comfortable with that. So it was meaningful and necessary. And it wasn't anything that I've everever thought back on. But I do say this to other people who want to get involved. Sometimes you do have to take your own money and put it out there. Because if you wait, you won't have that chance. And companies don't talk about it. They try to run up your bill if you get a lawyer. They try to discourage you in any way. And they have thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend. And it took them totally aback when we hired A.J., and when Rick and Janice started joining us. And when Westshore Environmental Consulting wrote up our samples into an actual report, which we handed to the EPA. And they were like, because they did not want there to be evidence. They didn't want facts. They didn't want that, and we knew that was the only safe way we could get anywhere. Pe--people, a news story is up and over in a day. They manage bad news, but they can't [LAUGHTER] samples for chromium, uh, mercury at screening levels with the sediment there, which weyou can't expect that. They try, but ultimately can't. Soso my story of being here with the ragtags, and reaching out to organizations beyond finding the Page 5 �credibles, um, being loosely organized, which was great because I compared that to being like a mountaineering group. Uh, back in the old days with mountaineering they used to have the Sherpas who would carry all your stuff. And you set up camp, and then you wait, and wait, and wait. Then you go to the next level. Then finally someone figured out light mountaineering. I don't know if that's a term they use, but just carry it yourself and keep moving. That's kind of how we moved, [CLEARS THROAT] by not being this official, organized group. We had no website. We didn't accept donations. We didn't have to account for anything. We were just sort of had this mutual agreement to stick together. And A.J. was our attorney, and Rick was our adviser, and Janice was our adviser, and they all worked with us. And that collaboration and the energy that comes from that, the mutual respect without having to like write it into a mission statement was there. And for me, I came to just simply enjoy them as characters. And yes, there wereit wasn't perfect. There were certain members who didn't really get the other ones. [LAUGHTER] And I was sort of the translator LAUGHTER] between different members. What I'd say is what I would sort of like explain this and that. "Really?" Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what you're-- "Oh, okay." [LAUGHTER] Because people are really quick to label each other and not move past that. And I guess being a writer and loving stories, I see the complexity, and the humor, and the, uh, human quality of all of us, [LAUGHTER] So I could see theI could be somewhat removed from it, not get entrapped in it, which was very helpful. Danielle Devasto: I bet. [LAUGHTER] Lynn Macintosh: There are a few people that I encountered that I think had I not had that attitude, people would have just decided not to work with that person, or not see the value. And somehow maybe it's just being who I am. Maybe it's being the age I was. I was able to find creative ways to soften things and bridge things, which was really, uh, which was really good because we've all come through on the other side and continued to work together afterwards. And these colleagues have only become more and more friends as we've spent more time together. Danielle Devasto: Well, and it sounds like this collaboration has been really critical in moving forward anything related to the tannery site it seems. Lynn Macintosh: Uhuh yeah, yeah, it was. And then the connections that Janice made, or ideas that others had. And finally myself bumping into or finding people from the DEQ who became interested, even though it wasn't theirnecessarily their project. There was one at the EPA who opened the door for us basically when he heard about early on this disaster. And he confirmed it. Hehe had the authority to call in to the DEQ. He called the city, and he called me back. He said, "My gosh, you're right, there's a total disconnect here. Nobody knows what's going on." And he was the one who said, "Well, if all else fails, get hundreds of photos. Talk to the tannery workers. Get it all done, and send us a petition __________ 00:08:16 , which is what we did a year later. Soso the way this story works is we all worked very effectively. We got the EPA out. After the disastrous, very unsafe demolition they came out and, um, basically, II think [LAUGHTER] I had showed you somewhere over here, you know, in the Rockford Independent, um, you know, there's this big article that came out in September. They accepted our Page 6 �invitation, or our petition. The EPA launches probe at tannery site. And, uh, there's all these nasty things already said about us in that article by the city manager and others. I don't want to go into all those. And it was, uh, it we got some sampling done. And then the city, and the legislators, and all of the players who had prevented things from happening as they should have, they, uh, convinced the EPA to give them oversight. So [LAUGHTER] then later it's kind of like __________ 00:09:28. It's almost like, The war is over! [LAUGHTER] EPA is going away! That's kind of how we felt like, Go away, EPA. We'll take care of it. We'll keep hiding this. [LAUGHTER] You know? Um, and so in 2012, after all our efforts, we worked so hard, everything went back to the status quo. It went back to exactly how it was before it happened. And Lynn Macintosh: I think anybody at that point, except for Janice and me, and Rick and A.J., would have just called it at that point. It's like, "Okay, we tried." Um, we did everything we could and here we are. We know that it rates high enough to be a Superfund site. We know that it's migrating in at least four areas into the river. We have data. We were right, but now nothing's gonna get done, and nothing did for- for five years. The only progress they made, I showed you the spreadsheet, the only progress they made in five years was to dig five soil samples in the wrong location. Danielle DeVasto: And at this point, did they know that there was PFAS involved, or were they just looking for like the chromium and the mercury? Lynn Macintosh: Well, that's what's really interesting. I'm glad you asked the question because in 2010, at the very beginning of 2011, Janice had connected with Bob Delaney, up at Portsmouth, who broke the whole PFAS story and had, was writing a paper about its dangers. And he had been writing his paper about what he foresaw as a catastrophe, really. A looming catastrophe, um, from 2010 to 2012. The same time we were watchdogging this demolition, he was up there writing a white paper. And almost to the month when the, when the EPA handed this back over to the DEQ, our DEQ took his white paper and shelved it. But he had asked Janice one day, "Janice, do you, do you know if they use Scotchgard in the tannery?" So she calls me up, and she says, "Lynn, do you know if they use Scotchgard at the tannery?" My very first interview in July of 2010, was Ralph Gould, whose nickname was Sydney because I gave them all code names to protect them, and in that very first interview within the first 10 minutes he was telling me all about Scotchgard. And I have that interview. I'm not going to get up and go, get it for you, [LAUGHTER] but it's scrawled about the Scotchgard. And I said, oh my gosh, they used it everywhere on everything. Tons of it. So, interestingly enough in 2012, partway through the EP's- EPA's investigation, we followed up our big petition with a second one, uh, Summary of Concerns Part Two, Connecting the Dots. And in that we updated our chemical list concern, and we included PFAS. So, they ought to have seen it, the EPA and the DEQ, it was, it was made known to them, and by 2011, I knew about it and I was concerned about it by that time. But they didn't test for it. This was a really odd thing. This was right- right before Flint, too, and the same director who shelved this report was the same director, Dan Lyon, who was also there during the Flint crisis. Uh, I don't know all the reasons why it got shelved, but if you ever talked to Bob Delaney, he was not to bring it up. He was, you know, hi- his job was on the line. They did Page 7 �not want this. So, he came forward and 2017, after this all blew up over here, and he finally came out and told about that paper. And then after this big explosion with Wolverine, and there was site after site after site after site, there were more sites than I even knew of. We knew of some of them, but there were others we hadn't known about. We knew about House Street. I had been there and walked around its perimeter a number of times, and I'd gotten all my facts that I needed to know about it to make me really concerned. But, um, but I'm glad you asked that because if you go back to 2012, here's Bob, all his work seems for naught, here were are, all our work seems for naught, so- so anybody after spending that amount of time and energy and putting, and getting so much grief without getting into all the grief that I had and all the intimidation that I experienced, and I did have some, a couple things that were, um, quite alarming happen, that would've been the time to thrown in the towel. Except that the tannery site and the interviews had led us to House Street and areas of outside __________ 00:05:08. All those interviews told about dumping, and we started to get more and more information about where specifically. And I kept meeting people and getting more clues. And Janice and I, and Rick, and A.J., because they don't give up, they just wanted to wait it out and keep meeting 'cause the last thing you do is stop meeting because that's Wolverine and everybody's thinking that you are gonna do, so you just keep meeting and hope. You don't know. So, we kept meeting every six months, and for Janice and I it was this burden, this heaviness inside that there could be people who live near these dumpsites, because she worked for the DEQ she understood groundwater contamination, that it could be affecting people's drinking water. So, like, I- I showed, I've showed this picture before. These are some of the children who live out on House Street and Chandler. They're- they're older now. This was in 2018. The best way I can describe it, it was like deep down somewhere you knew that there were people in trouble. It was like voices in a mine shaft. It's like so faint, but you still think you hear something. And it was like it was fate. Didn't have proof. Anything. But it was palpable. That this- this could be a very real danger to people, and we couldn't give up because I was a mother, you know. I'd- I'd raised two children, and that mother bear [LAUGHTER] clicked in, would not let me give up. Um, I just couldn't. It's like nothing told me to stop. Everything told me to keep going. I wished it hadn't some days. I wished that voice would go away some days, but I couldn't. I even would go, uh, one day after I, um, had interviewed Earl, the truck driver, who gave me the most important interview of all, someone who had actually driven stuff there to the House Street dumpsite, and after all these years, and hearing about people who gotten sick in that area, sought me out because I had talked to his son. And he sought me out because he wanted to tell me what he did. He wanted this to be known, and ultimately was wilLynng to have it notarized, and signed and sealed to stand up in court, which it did. And after realizing that what, hearing from his own lips what he did, how it was disposed of, in deep unLynned trenches, raw sludge just hauled out day after day, and poured in and left, he told me about two other locations as well. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's and nobody's listening. Now, I went to House Street one day, and I knocked on the door of five homes, including Sandy Wynn-Stelt's. I looked at there where the dump was, and I saw those five homes, and I thought I don't have a shred of evidence, I have an interview, I have what the tannery worker said, I'm not allowed on that property, I can't test that, but, if Page 8 �there were five homes I'd be concerned about, it would be these five right here. South of it, top grading of it, and just as one citizen to another, I'm gonna at least let them know that I know that this site was highly contaminated, and they took sludge from this site and dumped it there. I knew that. I didn't have any test results. But that if I lived there, I- I would be concerned about having my groundwater tested for safety. And so I did. I systematically knocked on all five doors. But what are you gonna do when someone knocks on your door. Right? I still felt I needed to do it, and what was really hard for me, Dani, was that when I went to Sandy's house, her husband answered the door, and then he died in 2016. So, when this all came out in 2017, then I had learned about that he, that he had died. And I remember meeting this one father with two young kids, and he listened. He was, but I couldn't offer any- any, uh, any proof. So, what we did is we decided, Janice and I decided to get the river tested using a program for Michigan, a Surface Water Monitoring Request, that any river that's not been checked in five years you can request that it gets tested. And, uh, some fisherman had already requested that the river be tested af- down in Plainwell 'cause they heard about the demolition. And the same guy at the DEQ who just took none of this seriously just wrote back and said, "Oh, it's all been tested by," you know, da-da-da-da-da, "no- no need to do this." [LAUGHTER] And then we found out that he had said that, and I'm like, are you kidding, they didn't test any of the river during that time, and you're the project manager. So, then we waited another year, and then we put together our own request, and they accepted it. And, Bob Delaney knew Janice, and Janice had found documents in Grand Rapids that proved that they used Scotchgard, showed where they stored it. Documents that the EPA had requested, and were too burdensome and cumbersome for the company to produce. She went through and found them all, and sent them to Chris Bush at the DHHS. And she worked with Bob, she looked 'em over and she said, "Bob, why don't you work, I- I think that we should bring Joe Bohr in, he works with fisheries there, I mean fish- fish toxicologist, and, uh, when you do the surface water monitoring request include testing for PFAS." So, we waited two years. It's normally a year process, but we waited two years, and in 2015, there was a, uh, fish advisory for PFAS in the fish in the river, and that's what we needed. So we had that, we had Janice's records of Scotchgard, and we had the interviews, and, uh, Rick, doc- Dr. Rediske, Rick Rediske [LAUGHTER] met with Rose & Westra, Mark Westra and Mike Robinson, from the environmental attorney at WMEAC, in an office and they told him that, "Well, no, we- we didn't use PFAS." They- they, like, eh, I have the copy of his memo. They feigned ignorance, and then I think reali-, they think realized they weren't going to be able to get very far with that, but that was their immediate response that we didn't use it. And by then Garret Ellison had started reporting on Wurtsmith, and he had proved his worth as a req-, as a res-, in- in terms of research, and credibility, and in-depth reporting, and I was reading his articles. I heard there was PFAS in Plainfield Township's water and they couldn't figure out where it was coming from, and I was the one based on my interviews, called 'em up and said, I think I know where, and I said, and I gave them documents that the DEQ had in their office there showing that there had been dumping at this Boulder Creek Golf Course, and over here, and, you know, this is the tannery, and __________ 00:14:13. So, in 2017 we took every, we had indisputable proof of their use of it, of their dumping of it, of that people lived in wells around these Page 9 �places, and that Plainfield Township talked about it in their own parks and recreation plan as a former dumpsite for- for the Wolverine Boot Company, or whatever, and that yes, chemicals used at tanneries are known to be hazardous, but as yet there have been no reported problems. Yeah. And then we found out that in 1966, that Plainfield Township had decided to not let Wolverine dump there anymore because everyone was complaining about the smell, and stench, and fires, and everything, and, uh, Wolverine sued Plainfield Township for not letting them dump there. And so the township settled under the condition that, and it's all in that timeline I showed you, they settled with Wolverine and allowed them to use the dumpsite as long as they didn't contaminate the water supply. They contaminated 25 square miles. There are 25 square miles contaminated __________ 00:15:33, and they contaminated the lakes nearby and streams. The plume, um, goes off in, like, the rays of a, like a daisy, like a flower, and the puddles are actually the rays. The- the flowers are the center part of the daisy. But, the- the plume goes this way, this way, this way, this way. It's just, there couldn't have been a worse place to have dumped it, and they dumped it deeply and in great quantity there, and in another place on Logan Street that I didn't know about. So, so we kept going because we kept getting clues, and 'cause we were concerned about the groundwater, about people drinking contaminated groundwater. I- I- I, that's what I'm concerned with. I mean, if the tannery got cleaned up, I knew it needed to be cleaned up, but it was outside here now 'cause we were on city water. And we had just contacted Garret, I did on July 19, 2017, when I realized that the DEQ was sitting on all the information we gave them, just biding their time, and playing around with sampling. Um, the geologist, I don't know if I have it over here, I think I probably do but if I don't I'm not gonna worry about it. [LAUGHTER] I use binders, lots of them. It- it kept me fit, in shape. [LAUGHTER] But there is a, yeah, there's an e-mail that Garret found. Somewhere in my vast array of- of, uh, 3-ring binders there's one that Garret found where the geologist Mark Bohr, the day after- the day after we talked to him in Ja-, uh, on January 24, 2017, the day after he was already concerned and mapping out plumes, and was already concerned about if there was a plume where it might go, and when he realized that they were just playin' around in April, after they finally did some testing to the east, not south which is where all indications were to go south, he wrote an e-mail to his, um, to David Donald and said, "I have a list of 150 addresses here and all my calculations say the plume is gonna go south, and it could go as far as Chandler Street. We need to get testing south of the site." And this was ignored. It was ignored. So, what happened was I finally July is my feisty month of the year [LAUGHTER] when I realized after we were trying to get updates about what the DEQ was doing, and they were just still playing games, this one person in particular, [LAUGHTER] I finally, was upstairs, it was a hot day, humidhumidity, and I said, that's it, that's it, I'm gonna call up that- that MLive reporter, that Garret Ellison. I still have that in my journal entry. It's like ENOUGH, and it's all in caps. It's like it's Garret or no one. [LAUGHTER] That's what I wrote and I called him up, and he first did the fish story, and he was all set to print that when everything came out about House Street. Now, here's something that's really interesting. We found out about House Street getting bottled water through a back door, so to speak. Happenstance, you might call it. I'll- I'll call it Providence because that was hush-hush. They weren't even telLynng the Page 10 �people on House Street that it was Wolverine. They were just calling it a potential responsible party, a PRP. Well, there's a PRP, and then we'll- we'll try to figure this out, you know, where it's coming from. You know, meanwhile, we said, "Wolverine dumped here," [LAUGHTER] you know, and they're, and they're not even telling them where it came from or why. And because I spoke up all these years, a colleague of my husband's, the colleague's wife had a cousin who lived on House Street, and my, andand the colleague's wife was an attorney. And the cousin called her cousin, who was an attorney who would, got up and read all about PFAS, and was so upset and realized how serious it was. And then did the whole Google thing, you know, and then found this and that, and was reminded that, from the Rockford Squire, that we'd been involved. So she calls me one Saturday morning in August and wants to talk to me about bottled water that's being delivered and do I know anything about it. I'm like, what? Where? "Well, I can't really tell you the location, but it's, you know." And so through her, and she was pretty clever, too, she would go and meet with her cousin, and when they were going around, they had this like in-house map that showed the houses with high readings, and this and that, and, uh, she got a couple of phone shots of this map, and got a lot of the back- back story about what was happening and why. And she shared it with me, and she finally told me where it was. And I called up Garret asking him, well, what do you think we should do about this? I just found out they're delivering bottled water on House Street. This is one of the sites that we had been so concerned about. It's bad enough that they're, you know, not taking any chances, you know. [LAUGHTER] And Garret was like, "What do we do about it?" He said, "This is a public health crisis. We report on it and, like, what do you have?" And so I sent him that little map. And it was fascinating because, and I'm gonna use the name David O'Donnell, because this is the person who he interacted with and this is the person who delayed our efforts from 2011 all the way till then, um. When Garret was doing the fish story and was trying to get documents and FOIA them, David O'Donnell, as a courtesy, took Garret's FOIA and first gave it to Wolverine. And Garret found out about it, and Garret was really mad about it. And David O'Donnell knew that. So, Garret goes down I'd love it if he would tell this part, I wasn't there but he goes down to the DEQ, walks into David O'Donnell's office, and says, "So, David, I hear there's a- there's a map for people out on House Street. People are getting water delivered to their homes. Do you have anything you can tell me about that?" And that's how it got out. It wasn't supposed to get out. The right information got to the right person at the right time. I always teased Garret, it was like this baton pass. Like CCRR, our core group, it's like we're running a relay, and you're like doing this third lap that goes forever, [LAUGHTER] five years we're running this third lap, and then there's Garret, who we identify who we need, and like we're exhausted, and we like give him all this information, and he knew exactly what to do and how to do it. And he ran that fourth lap, and then he just kept going, started his own investigation. But he got the story out, and everybody was taken by surprise. That is why it was so effective because they thought we'd gone away. They thought we were just little play things, and just pat us, hush puppies all will be well, right. Just pat us on the head. Well, you know, it didn't work. They tried to get the EPA out, you know. We won, the war's over, and no one is gonna make us do anything. [LAUGHTER] And then they got completely caught off guard, and so did the Page 11 �DEQ, and so did the city, and so did Plainfield. Everybody was completely caught off guard, and it was one wave of news after another. It was House Street, it was this, it was this, and it was such a big, like, almost like a tidal wave effect or a tsunami effect. I don't know the best way, I still struggle for words for that. But it- it couldn't be put back in. That's the thing. For all these years, the city and the company had been trying to keep it all in and covered. And going back to my image of the mine shaft, you know, it's like we had finally reached the people. That's what it was like in 2017. Yes, there were real people, and oh my gosh, I'm so glad we found them. Oh my gosh, what could we do to help? Like, when people were pulled up from a mineshaft, you know, they need triage, they need care. It's like it's still not a pretty picture at all, but at least we reached them before too much more time went by. And that's what's interesting about the outcome is that it was so quiet. We were so quiet all those years. And then just there's this huge knockout punch. They didn't have time to plan for it. Danielle DeVasto: Garret knew just what to do. Lynn Macintosh: I still- I still just shake my head thinking about it. I and I, none of us expected it to be that big. And now it's statewide, nationwide, worldwide. I told, I told Garret I think the story is Wurtsmith, Wolverine Worldwide. And that's how MPART got formed, because good, this is right on the heels of Flint. I asked myself, would Flint, would this have happened without Flint? I'm not sure it would have. I think Flint showed that you can't necessarily trust the people that you think ought to be looking out for you. So that, unfortunately, is a sad way to prepare the soils for the fact that, yeah, and this does happen, you know. Danielle DeVasto: Um, so what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward at this point? Lynn Macintosh: Oh, it's so hard for me. I- I have a hard time even riding my bike on the trail because I see it, and I know how long it's gonna take for things to get done, you know. And I've seen how litigation works and how that takes so long. And they've been talking about putting in some kind of pump-and-treat system over here. It's four years now. And whenever we have these rain events, I don't know why I do it, but I have video after video where I go down to the river, and I stand there, and I take photos and video. And I do it on days when the foam level is low, and I do it on days when the foam level is high. And I always say, look at this, 365 days a year, 24/7, these foamy trails of water, these paths, them form like little paths so it's like these stripes 'cause they stick to each other, these striped paths flow down the river, into the- the Grand River, and they do leave a trail. And it's still not being treated, and the company's still playing games about it. Just do the work. Just do the work. Get it done. Pump and treat here, pump and treat where it's entering the river. Just do it. Do it now. You're gonna have to do it eventually. Why- why cause that much more harm? Stop paying so much to your lawyers. Just get the work done. What would it be like to actually be the company that did the right thing? That owned up to it? That exceeded our expectations? Imagine what that would be like. You could be that company. No one's stopping you. All that grief, and I see it. I see it in creeks, I see itm and I report it, and now the DEQ doesn't have time to follow-up on these foam reports. But I still track it. I'm still trying to find some sources in Cannon Page 12 �Township, 'cause I- I- I do, I track the creeks, I track it to the ponds, I track it to vacant land, and I research the history of the land. I've learned pretty much what to look for, what- what signals, I can judge vegetation Danielle DeVasto Tid: 579-2 Lynn Macintosh: I- I can judge vegetation that's distressed. I use my nose, and my eyes to judge, um, and I have to figure out which ones to report, which is what they have to do. Which are the worst? But there's 5000 of these chemicals, and we're still, we're still letting them be manufactured. It's actually, it's that there's an- an- an inanity to it and an insanity to it, both. Why are we doing this? Because it doesn't go away. I remember, um, Dani, I would be swimming in Lake Michigan a few years ago, and I was thinking, oh my gosh, I'm thinking about this too much. Like I'm imagining, like, these PFAS bubbles are following me because I'm swimming and I'm seeing this trail of bubbles. I'm like those are just air bubbles. No, they don't seem to be just air bubbles. Oh, you're just thinking about it too much. Well, each year there's more of 'em. Well, yeah, now I get it. It's confirmed. There's PFAS in Lake Michigan. People from Grand Rapids are taking their water from Lake Michigan. Okay. Also, __________ 00:01:29 may need to filter their water like __________ 00:01:35 Township's doing. I don't know. Kids on the beaches are- are near foam. They take foam, they pick it up, they put it on their faces. This is dangerous stuff. And I see it, and I see it, and I've always seen it before everybody else. And in these weird times where I thought I'm just imagining it, like, oh come one, you're just seeing it everywhere because you're thinking about it. Clearly no. It's there. I know it's there. I know what it is now. I just like, in my, I didn't get this out for you today, but in my bottom drawer there,may- maybe I will because I wasn't planning amongst all this other stuff that I have here, um, which is a narrow pass, [SIGH] I keep finding things, and in here I have my journals from seventh grade. And I- I go back and I look at these and I see myself sort of as like a young sapling. And I go back and I'm reading some of these entries, and I start, I- I write about pollution in here, and how upset I am about it. Pollution. "The USA has many problems right now, but I feel pollution should be our largest concern. [LAUGHTER] Fighting wars and sending men to the moon is what is on everyone's mind. But, if you don't start realizing how pollution is affecting your lives, we will all be in danger." And I, and I go on about it. I'm talking about DDT, and- and the birds. Like it must have been shortly after Rachel Carson had come out, and- and how troubled I was. And then I'm, like, hear myself at the end as a seventh grader, "Now I feel I want to help stop pollution for we were given this world, so why should we wipe it out? [LAUGHTER] With further study of pollution, I will even understand it more, and I might be able to think up a way to help stop it." Danielle DeVasto: Wow, wow. Lynn Macintosh: Isn't that something? Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Page 13 �Lynn Macintosh: And I just came upon this 'cause I'm going through things now, and I thought, oh my gosh, I've cared about, I've cared about contaminated air, or smokestacks and air, and water, since I was in elementary school. I did. I- I- I noticed it then, and I- I couldn't understand why we would let, we would put all this- this stuff up into the air. I think, well, it was before the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. So, I grew up before that. And I would, as a kid, I would just shake my head. And I remember one time I took, um, white water canoeing lessons in the Schuylkill River in, near, outside Pennsylvania, and the river was warm, and I could, it, I mean just being in that river, too, I could tell it wasn't clean, and I didn't like being in. But the thing that hit me was that it was warm. Why is this river warm? It's pretty, so I and I moved out here, ba-, we came back here. One of the reasons we came back here, Dani, from the East Coast was because of Lake Michigan. And I love swimming in that lake. I love it. And I can't swim south of Muskegon anymore. I can't swim especially south of where the Grand River goes in because the water's different from 40 years ago. I've seen it. I've seen the water quality diminish, and it's- it's disheartening to think that this big, beautiful lake, I feel like after I swimming, I need this shower afterwards right about, right afterwards. So, I really, I- I want to do what I can to protect people's drinking water, but I- I want to continue to do things to help shake people awake a little bit. And I think that might come more through the arts and writing, and these stories like this getting out. I- I don't know how. I don't know how, but sometimes you wish you didn't know all that you did. Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you'd like to either go back to or emphasize? Any last points that you wanna make? Lynn Macintosh: Yes, I do, and there are two things, that- that happen quite a bit. Um, a story like this has a lot of dark underbellies, and there's a lot of things I found out about people and about organizations I wish I didn't know. And there was one point where I- I really felt like giving up. I was so tired and I had a friend tell me, to say to me, "Well, you know, you love to tell stories." 'Cause I do, I'm Irish. [LAUGHTER] Comes with the territory and the curly hair. She said, "You should write about some of this place." And I says, I don't even, I don't want to write about it. I said, I'm just so sick of it. It's just, it's just, it's awful. I was really worn down by it. And she said to me, "Well, you don't even have to, like, you don't even have to even write it in a book. You could just record yourself while you're doing things. Kinda have fun with it, and pretend you're this person or, you know, as you're doing it." So. I thought about it and I bought myself a little handheld recorder, I have one in the other room. But, [LAUGHTER] I-I invented a character based on Lake Wobegon, Garrison Keillor. He had Guy Noir who, late at night on the 10th floor of the ACME building, was finding the answers to life's perplexing problems. [LAUGHTER] And I thought, I'll be Gal Noir, and my Gmail was already 003, I don't know why. Lmarie003, and I was just like, Gal Noir, eco spy, sleuth for truth [LAUGHTER], and I started writing about all of it in the third person. And, uh, th- this is my first journal, you know, and I- I would decorate each one. The secret life of Gal Noir 003 eco spy . [LAUGHTER] And I started writing and filLynng these journals. And here's a picture of me on my friend's roof. This is not a good picture, but it happens to be in my journal. Um, but I might try to retell my story through this character or parts of it. But I- I took it to heart and I have recordings. I have recordings from Page 14 �2011 on tapes, and I have journals that span every year, you know, and here's 2013. This is, uh, part two. This is part five the storyteller is born. Um, this is another part here. Every journal is different, you know. It was, interesting to me at the time. This was a sketch book. So I thought I was really funny on this one. I took and I added a lie. Sketchy, you know. [LAUGHTER] And my poem here, Gal Noir, Part Three, The Story Continues. [LAUGHTER] And this was my little quote that I- I had to find some humor, and it was very difficult speaking to my city council when they, you know, they sit there, you know, if they're awake, [LAUGHTER] and, um, they're- they don't like you to go on and on and on either, so I- I said Gal Noir has her own poetry, Gal Noir, la poetess, you know, like I collected all the poems she wrote. Um, [CLEARS THROAT], "Upon addressing one's city council, ration passion, keep it brief, spare yourself and others grief." [LAUGHTER] I learned that the hard way. But when I put it in those that little format, you know, it's like, okay, I get it now. [LAUGHTER] I've gotta ration some of that passion. You know, I can't, I can't, uh, be spoutin' it all the time. Sometimes I felt like when I was going into the city council meetings, like I was like getting off, like I was actually riding a real horse, like getting off my high horse and walking into the city council. The doors were like saloon doors, you know what I mean, and I would walk in and everybody would look, "Oh no, it's Lynn Macintosh." [LAUGHTER] Danielle DeVasto: Sounds like your imagination was Lynn Macintosh: It was. Danielle DeVasto: a useful tool for you. Lynn Macintosh: It was very helpful. Yeah, I- I- I pretend, I- I told people it felt like I wore the scarlet A for activism. I'm like other, but no, I- I befriended my imagination, and I had fun bringing certain people into it. Some people can't go there with you. But like another friend, Gail Mancewicz, who I hope you talk to, she was so upset that I had a, this little code 003. [LAUGHTER] And she says, "Well, who am I gonna be?" And I said, well, you could be 004. She goes, "Well, why 004?" I said, because then together we're 007. [LAUGHTER] You know? So, it was fun to carry certain people into that with you. Other people couldn't really be interested, and that's fine, too. It's who I am. The other thing I wanted to say was I was myself. I used what I was comfortable with. I used my simple cell phone. I used my bicycle. I used the real phone. I talked to people face-to-face. And I don- not, I do not think I ever would have gotten to the bottom of it if I had relied on Google and e-mail. I had to bump into the information. I had to bump into real people because then that connects you and people start to trust you and share and then they bring other people to you. That was absolutely, there- there's nothing, that's one reason I didn't want to do a Zoom call. Face-to-face, real life is so important. Conversation. And then lastly, from 2017 to 2018, for almost an entire year, I couldn't talk about the story with anybody because I was grieving that my worst fears were true that had been harmed. And I didn't want to bother the people on House Street. I didn't want my name to be out there because they were, they were deaLynng with this tragedy. And I kept a lot of it inside, and I was burdened by it. And I was out there on the front porch talking to Garrett and I was feeLynng very heavy-hearted, and he said to me, "You know, you should call up, you should call up Jen Carney." And I said, well- well why is that? He said, "Well, she said she'd like to talk to you sometime. She's really proud Page 15 �for what you've done. 'Cause I didn't want to be looking for that. And I said, "Really?" He said, yeah, yeah, no, I, she's, you know, they And he said, "Listen, I'll give you her number. Call her if you want." So, I called her, and it was lovely because her name is Jennifer Lynn, my first daughter is Jennifer Lynn. She has a lovely personality. We enjoyed talking. And then she told me, what she said made all the difference to me. She told me how sick she was. She told me how she thought she was going to have to get into a wheelchair. That family was gonna have to move in. No one could figure out what was going on. She was that sick. It was a total mystery. And it was that bad. And then I asked her, so how is it now? And she said, "I've gotten better every single day since I stopped drinking that water." She says, "I'm not having these symptoms anymore. I'm not having these symptoms anymore." She says, "Every day for a year, it's not been all at once." But she says, "But I've gotten better." And I just, I was on the other end of the phone Lynne and I just started crying. To hear that from her own heart and from her own mouth, that all this work, because it was a lot of work, it was really hard work. I look back, I- I say, who was it that did all this? That was me? You know, 'cause in the middle of it you don't think that. But seeing, like, a real or talking to a real person that you just have a sense that there's something wrong and actually hearing and hearing that they're getting better, that- that broke a log jam for me, but I couldn't talk about it much till then. And I'll never forget that day. In fact I probably could've started with that story because, yes, your imagination helps you, yes, working with other people help you. All these things, but it's like the fire trucks finally showed up. We've been talking about it for all this time. No one believes you and they tell you, "No, it's not fire," or "No, that's not smoke, that's mist." "Oh, no, it's where you're standing," and just, "It's a mirage." And finally, the fire trucks showed up in 2017, and things are changed and will continue to change, and, um, that makes all the difference. That's really what it's been about. And that's what it was about for me, and for- for AJ, and for Rick, and for Gail, and Janice. There wa- there was nothing that we wanted for ourselves. We just had a burden that we carried together. So, yeah, I think that's probably a good place to leave it. Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Lynn Macintosh: Because we need to care for each other. We do. We- we can't just like it someone else's problem, right? So, anyway, and I'm so glad I've gotten to know some of those people out there. I've gotten to know Tobin and Sandy and Jen some, so yeah, completing that. Danielle DeVasto: Thank you, Lynn Lynn Macintosh: Yeah. Danielle DeVasto: for having the time to tell your story today, or at least Lynn Macintosh: Yeah. Danielle DeVasto: part of it. [LAUGHTER] Lynn Macintosh: Part of it. Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Lynn Macintosh: Yeah. Danielle DeVasto: Okay, thank you. Page 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0024 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McIntosh, Lynn Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-07-29 Title A name given to the resource Lynn McIntosh, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Lynn McIntosh grew up on the east coast but has lived in Rockford, Michigan for about 30 years. Lynn noticed foam and filmy substance in the river in about 2010, and began taking photos of the contamination. In this interview, McIntosh discusses her work to bring public awarenss to PFAS contamination. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b81d490ff7b321e5a2cb4883f49d53c4.mp4 305e31c64497dd331dc8176fa050a23e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/737d88c51bfbc58b9323802a6c088c52.pdf 57fde8ab4b92d0817be4c9bb7b35893e PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto Interviewee: Gary Pettyjohn Date of Interview: 7/28/2021 Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, July 28, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Gary Pettyjohn. Hi, Gary. Gary Pettyjohn: Hello, how are you? Danielle DeVasto: I'm doing well. How are you? Gary Pettyjohn: Uh, we're freezing up a little bit here. Soon as you started recording, it started. Danielle DeVasto: Oh, yep, my internet connection is unstable. Gary Pettyjohn: Oh, okay, so it's you, not me. Danielle DeVasto: It's me. Yeah, it's me. Gary Pettyjohn: Okay. Danielle DeVasto: I'm even hard wired in. Gary Pettyjohn: Oh, interesting. Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, it's unfortunate. Um, am I sounding better to you now? Gary Pettyjohn: It is. Danielle DeVasto: Okay, I'll just- I'll just start over, I guess. Uh, I'm Dani DeVasto and today, July 28, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Gary Pettyjohn. Hi, Gary. Gary Pettyjohn: Hello. Danielle DeVasto: Gary, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? Gary Pettyjohn: I currently live in Northville, Michigan, uh, but I was born and raised in Grayling, Michigan, uh, north, in northern Michigan, uh, near the Camp Grayling, uh, uh, National Guard Army training site so. Danielle DeVasto: And you said you currently live in North? Gary Pettyjohn: Northville. Danielle DeVasto: Northville. So— Gary Pettyjohn: Yeah. Danielle DeVasto: —I'm still learning some of my Michigan geography. [LAUGHTER] Gary Pettyjohn: Oh, no worries, it's on, uh, it's in southeast Michigan. Danielle DeVasto: Okay, how long have you lived in Northville? Gary Pettyjohn: Uh, in Northville about three-and-a-half years. Before that, my wife and I lived in South Lyon, Michigan. It's over by Brighton, uh, north of Ann Arbor, for close to 25 years so. Danielle DeVasto: All right. Gary Pettyjohn: So. Danielle DeVasto: Gary, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? Gary Pettyjohn: Yeah, I- I, you know, my experience with PFAS all centers aro-, centers around where I grew up. Um, I had heard of PFAS, you know, in the news most- mostly related to either Oscoda or, uh, you know, at- at around the Air Force base there, Portsmouth, and, uh, and over on the west side of the Page 1 �state around was it Rockford, um, I believe. Um, so, I mean, those were the most noteworthy PFAS stories I had heard of. Um, but back in, uh, 2017, 2018, uh, I was driving home from work and, uh, listening to NPR, as I usually did, and I had one of those NPR moments where the story just grabbed me because it was a story about PFAS, and then they mentioned Grayling. And that, you know, perked my ears up. [LAUGHTER] I, um, I, and, uh, I got home, I stayed out in the car, listened to the rest of the report, came in, ate dinner, and got on the internet. And, uh, you know, the rest, they say, is history. Um, it was just, uh, it was like going down a rabbit hole, you know, because, um, it just kept getting worse and worse the more I, the more I looked into it until I found a heat map that, uh, that the military had put out. Uh, and then there's two, there's two groups that are dealing with Grayling. There's the military and they've got this RAB group, um, that's dealing with the PFAS contamination. And then you've got the state of Michigan in part doing their thing. Um, I, you know, I wasn't aware of either. Um, but I found this heat map and, uh, and, you know, the- the green and yellow and red dots all around the airfield, which is, you know, the area that I grew up in. I grew up in, um, uh, two separate homes that were in the testing area, and, you know, there were yellows and reds and, you know, a few greens sprinkled in there. But I- I also know that even though we lived in town, we had a private well, and, you know, and so that was, that was concerning . Um, uh, these heat maps showed, you know, where the PFAS was flowing, and it was like flowing right through my backyard, you know. Um, so, you know, that's- that's- that was the beginning of my awareness [LAUGHTER] of, uh, PFAS, and- and then I started, you know, wondering about, you know, all the health issues that my family's had. Uh, my mother, when she was in her late 40s, um, uh, needed her appendix removed, and they did a biopsy on it, and there was some rare form of cancer in this, in this appendix. So, they, um, you know, she did, you know, did a- a round of treatment, and, um, and ironically, the day that she was declared terminal was the day she got a notification that she was cancer-free. I don't know how that works, but, uh, [LAUGHTER] I, uh, uh, it just one of those ironic things. Um, so it, you know, it- it took, she had about five years from the initial diagnosis to when she- she passed away. Um, right about the same time, my father became ill. He had turned jaundiced, and so he went into his physician, and he told him to go immediately up to, uh, the medical center up in Petoskey, Michigan. Um, uh, and, you know, they ran tests and couldn't determine what was causing it, um, so they did exploratory surgery. They opened him up, they went in and they found, um, tumors, pre-can- is what they call pre-cancerous tumors on his pancreas and then on his liver, and they performed a procedure called a Whipple. And, you know, if anybody's curious about it, Google it. It's, uh, [LAUGHTER] it's almost medieval what they do, and they don't, they don't use that procedure very much anymore becausebecause of the horrible side effects of it. Uh, but they, you know, they basically removed part of his pancreas as part of his liver, sections of his, you know, bowels, part of his stomach, and then they somehow plumb it all back together. And, uh, um, and, you know, true to what I, the research I had done on Google about the Whipple, uh, he had terrible side effects. He had, he suffered from pancreapancreatitis attacks, uh, on a regular basis. Uh, they finally got that a little under control with his medication the he had to take like once a month with a syringe. This, you know, it looked like it was Page 2 �meant for horses. Uh, used to get these shots, um, to try to keep his pancreas under control. Um, but hishis liver slowly, uh, you know, basically disintegrated, and, you know, cause of death was cirrhosis of the liver. Um, I mean, he did have, you know, he lived with that for about 20 years. So, I mean it wasn't an immediate, um, immediate thing like it was for my mom, but, uh, you know, it certainly wasn't much quality of life. You know, constantly, uh, being afraid to get too far away from the hospitals because, you know, he had a bad experience going into a- a different hospital they didn't know his history, and, uh, you know, they really messed him up. Um, so he was always afraid to venture too far from home. Um, and, you know, I've, you know, I, in high school I developed asthma, which was, you know, doctor back then said it was kind of strange that, you know, that I developed asthma, you know, that late in life. Um, you know, I've had, uh, I was hospitalized once with vasculitis and I- I was at U of M Hospital for, you know, almost over a week, and they would bring in the- the- the wannabe doctors and to- to poke and prod me because they never seen anything like it. And I came out of it with a diagnosis of Crohn's disease. Um, I don't- I don't- I don't think I had Crohn's disease. I think I had, you know, some kind of inflammation in the bowel, but I don't think it was Crohn's disease. I have a cousin that has Crohn's disease, and, you know, I've seen what it's done to him, so I'm pretty sure I don't have that. But, you know, they did the best they could. So, you know, and my sisters, both of my sisters have had, uh, children with autism. Uh, one- one child was born with cerebral palsy. Uh, and, you know, my- my- my one sister had- has one severe autistic child, one I'd say mildly, uh, another one that's probably on the spectrums, like an Asperger's type. Um, and the oldest girl, I, you know, I think she's, uh, she's been, you know, pretty healthy. But so I mean, you just, you go back [LAUGHTER] and you- you learn about this PFAS chemical that likely was in your water when you were growing up. You know, one of the frustrating things for me has been as a nonresident, you know, [LAUGHTER] you know, I requested and- and, uh, information about any of the testing that they had done at the house where I used to live, and, uh, and I was told that that was, you know, that was not gonna happen, that, you know, I- I didn't live there so, therefore, they wouldn't release those- those figures to me. Um, so, you know, that's- that's been a little frustrating. Uh, I think something that's sorely lacking in- in- in these conversations is, you know, what about the people that used to live in the house that's been found to have PFAS? And I understand that priority number one is, you know, identifying where it is, and, you know, get clean water to those people, whether that's through filtration or through hooking them up to municipal water supplies or- or whatever- whatever's got to happen. I understand that that's the first- the first priority, but, um, you know, it's- it's like if you lived there, if you lived there, you know, your- your exposure doesn't count. You know, that's kind of the way I feel about it. Uh, I had joined the, MPART started a, uh, a Citizens- what, a Citizens Advisory Workgroup, um, and, you know, in hopes of getting more information and, you know, it turned into, in my opinion, I don't know, it's just kind of a bureaucracy. And, you know, I attended a year's worth of meetings and it was going nowhere, so, you know, I politely said, you know, I'm out. Um, so, I've been rambling. [LAUGHTER] I, you know, I, uh— Page 3 �Danielle DeVasto: Where did you go from there after MPART, or what have- what- what for you was the story at that point? Gary Pettyjohn: Um, you know, I- I just, I kinda, I'm- I'm obsessed. I have a thumb drive that's full of, you know, everything from, you know, news articles to scientific papers to, uh, just anything you could imagine. I spent a week downloading all the- all the documents, uh, related to the Minnesota vs. 3M, uh, lawsuit that they concluded in 2018 or 2019. Uh, the attorney general for the state of Minnesota, uh, kindly put all those out there so for everybody to see. That's been very interesting. Um, you know, I monitor the- the- the RAB, the military side of, you know, Grayling's remediation and test, you know, water testing activities. And, you know, any- anything that MPART puts out, I'm still on the mailing list, so I get all the e-mails. Um, so, you know, it's, it- it- it, I guess I- I don't know anything for sure. I don't know that- that our water had PFAS in it. I- I don't, you know, it's- it's a tale of, I don't know, I guess. Um, I find it hard to believe that we weren't impacted given all of the health issues, um, especially, you know, especially with my dad. One of the- one of the PFAS issues is, you know, liver, panc-, you know, pancreas, kidney- kidney type problems. He certainly qualified for that. But, uh, um, you know, I'm angry. I'm angry that, you know, that these chemical companies knew what, you know, that- that these were toxic chemicals, and, um, and touted 'em as some miracle, you know. Uh, some miracle product that would put out, you know, fires from, you know, crashed aircraft and, you know, fuel fires, things like that. And, you know, I can remember growing up, uh, seeing plumes of smoke coming from, you know, the airfield, and, uh, you know, they just used to, you know, light stuff on fire and put it out, you know, weekend after weekend after weekend. So, you know, I, uh, I think there's something terribly wrong with the chemical regulation process in the United States and probably throughout the world. The EU seems to have their act a little bit better that we do. Um— Danielle DeVasto: What problem is it that you think there is? Gary Pettyjohn: Well, I, that- that they're allowed to use chemicals in manufacturing and, you know, consumer products, and- and there's no responsi- they have no responsibility for figuring out what the toxicity is, and how these chemicals move around in the environment, and if they're bioaccumulative. You know, they, you know, they, you know, they came out in, uh, what 1976, they came out with the- the—I forget the acronym. It's for- for the legislation, but it was supposed to tighten up regulation. But then they grandfathered, like, 65,000 chemicals that were on the books at the time. You know, um, you know, the chemical companies want to- want to vet, you know, one PFAS chemical at a time, but there's thousands of, you know, it'd that the next couple centuries to- to figure out all the nasty effects from these chemicals. But, you know, they're okay with that because, you know, they're making money all the time while, you know, they're delaying, you know, they're running their delay tactics. You know, I- I don't, and- and PFAS is not the only one. I mean, there's all kinds of chemicals out there I'm sure that are benefiting from the poor, same poor regulatory structure that we have. Um, you know, in my mind, you shouldn't be able to, you know, at least with the FDA, when they release a drug that they had to go through some testing. They had to understand side effects, and document side effects, you know. But the chemical companies, they Page 4 �can just Better Life Through Chemistry, and then, you know, people are left holding the bag. You know, people get sick, people die before any action's taken. It just doesn't sit right with me. But, uh, so, you know, I troll 3M, DuPont and ChemOrgs on Twitter. You know, every time they pet, you know, they dislocate their shoulde- you know, what terrible citizens they are. [LAUGHTER] It's about all I can do, you know. I write— Danielle DeVasto: And you said and you, and you said you weren't aware of PFAS before you heard that NPR show, right? Gary Pettyjohn: No, no, and my sister still lives in, you know, she's actually lives in my, the last house that my dad owned in Grayling. And even that house is- is inside of- of the testing area. Um, the house is only, I'd say, maybe two miles from the airfield, but it's- it's not, it's- it's not in the- in the flow as the geologists have- have, uh, identified of the PFAS plume. But, you know, but she- she lives in that community still. And I called her up and I'm like, why didn't you say anything? And she's- [LAUGHTER] she's like, "Oh yeah- yeah, I heard of PFAS. They've been drillin' wells up and down our road." And, uh, so, um, I, you know, I gently tried to get her to do a little research on her own, you know, just to try to understand what it's- what it's about, and, um, you know, my sisters are 15 and 17 years younger than me, um, so, you know, my- my mom after I was born, she miscarried a couple of years later, and then she was told she would never have children. And something corrected itself, [LAUGHTER] uh, and my- my oldest sister came along you know, they didn't grow up in- in those houses. They- the only one that they grew up in were- was the last one that my sister lives in now. So, but, I mean all the studies say that it's passed from, you know, mother to child. So, you know, if my mom had high levels of PFAS in her, likely, you know, they were impacted, um, you know, and we're all- we're all exposed to it to a certain degree, uh, as it's been shown that, you know, every American, you know, virtually every American had some level of PFAS in their blood, um, so, in addition to these extra exposures, you know, by people that arethat live near air bases or live near these- these chemical company facilities that, uh, get a lit- little extra, uh, you know, we're all continually- continually exposed, so I, you know, it's—I, uh, read that, uh, Robert Billot, I read his exposure book, you know, and, you know, it didn't help my attitude towards __________ 00:01:27. [CHUCKLE] I'm sure that was the intent, uh, but, you know, it's just, uh, I don't know, it's- it's been frustrating. Danielle DeVasto: I know. Gary Pettyjohn: I just, there's, and I doubt that I'll ever get any answers, you know. So. Danielle DeVasto: Well, you might have touched on this a little bit, but what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward from this point? Gary Pettyjohn: Uh, just the glacial pace of- of, you know, trying to get the EPA to do anything about it, you know, the last four years, and nothing was going to happen on PFAS, so, you know, as soon as the 2016 election was over, I was [CHUCKLE] pretty much, you know, that was a done deal, but, uh, um, you know, I- I'm just—I think at its core, you know, this is just another example of, you know, a poor regulatory system, you know, a poor that allows chemical companies to create chemicals in the lab, find a use for it, Page 5 �and, you know, they just put it out there and, you know, it basically turns us all into lab rats, you know, um, and once they start identifying, you know, people start going, "Hey, we live next to this __________ 00:03:16 plant and, you know, everybody's coming up with testicular cancer and, you know, liver problems and all this stuff," and, you know, people start putting two and two together all of a sudden, you know? Yeah. And then they fight you tooth and nail, so, to prove it and I don't know why it's incumbent on us, you know, as- as citizens, to prove that your product is harming, you know. Uh, you know, the terrible thing about, you know, chemical contamination is there's no smoking gun. You know, it takes decades sometimes for these cancers and diseases to- to manifest and, uh, I mean, trying to prove causation is- is very difficult and, um, you know, it's just- it's, I- I don't understand why they don't have to prove that their product is safe before—or if it's not safe, then let everybody know it's not safe and don't let it be discharged into, you know, surface waters, you know, used indiscriminately, [LAUGHTER], you know. Uh, you know, I can remember, uh, the local fire department in Grayling, uh, they used to have this, [CHUCKLE] like at fourth of July or something, they had this big- big ball on a rope that they strung across and then they had two fire trucks on either end and they were trying to force the ball over over the line with- with the fire hoses and one year as an added special thing, they used this foam, [CHUCKLE] sprayed down, you know, sprayed down everybody. People were playing in it. You know, you look back on that stuff and you're like, oh, my God, you know, you're so ignorant. But there were people that weren't ignorant, and that's- that's the disheartening thing, people knew. You know, some people tried to warn us __________ 00:05:39, you know, but then they were just, you know, crank employees ushered away, you know, but, you know, I think, you know, that's disappointing. It's disappointing that companies put profits over people, you know. Danielle DeVasto: There were people like that in Grayling, in your community, that you remember growing up that tried to say things about the foam? Gary Pettyjohn: No, no, no. Uh, people that worked within the chemical companies. If you read any of it—and I found that out because of the 3M law, the Minnesota lawsuit against 3M, there were documents in there that there was an employee that famously, you know, fired off a- a resignation letter and, uh, it was funny because the anti PFAS people use that as a big example of, you know, here's somebody that, you know- you know, tried to stand up to them- stand up to 3M and I guess event—you know, like a few months later, he went back to work for 3M and ended up retiring from there. Now he grows organic vegetables out in, you know, Iowa, somewhere, so- [LAUGHTER] so much for having a conscience, you know. Maybe he- maybe he went back 'cause he thought he'd- he'd be able to make changes, but, um, obviously not so much, you know. I mean, 3M knew that this stuff was bad, which is why they got out of business. You know, they stopped making, they stop- stopped making, uh, you know, what was it PFOA, was there a big thing, I think, uh, they stopped making it back in the early 2000s, uh, 'cause they knew. [CHUCKLE] I'm sure their- their people told them, "You're gonna lose your shirt on this stuff if you don't stop put it out there" So, they sold the patent rights to, uh, to DuPont, who had absolutely no problem, uh, taking up the mantle and producing those terrible chemicals. So. [LIP SMACK] So. Yeah. Page 6 �Danielle DeVasto: Well, before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't touched on or anything you'd like to go back to and say more about? Gary Pettyjohn: No, I don't think so. Uh, that's my story, I'm sticking to it, I guess. [CHUCKLE] You know, it's- it's not so much of a story as, uh, I wonder if there's a story there, you know. Again, I don't know that I'll ever- ever get the answers I'm looking for, you know. Nobody can tell me what the PFAS levels were like in my private well when I was growing up on 802 Plum Street in Grayling, Michigan, during the '70s, you know. Uh, you know, don't know that I'll ever know. So. Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Gary, for taking the time to talk with me and share your story today. Gary Pettyjohn: Sure. Thank you. Page 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0023 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pettyjohn, Gary Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-07-28 Title A name given to the resource Gary Pettyjohn, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Gary Pettyjohn grew up in Grayling, Michigan before moving to the southeast region of the state. His experiences with PFAS in his community center around the Wurstmuth Air Force Base in Oscoda, Michigan. After learning about the contamination in about 2017, he began to connect his family's health conditions to PFAS. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b533094def8d73b9ff3272f207becacc.mp4 b1eeaf39f7018b3ef431df7706c7a984 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9406c11ecdc441af6d4d29523b9de8d7.pdf d10832a8b7f468ee10032eff6354baca PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Kevin Ferrara Interviewer: Dani Davsto Date: September 29, 2021 DD: I’m Dani Devasto and today, September 29, 2021 I have the pleasure of chatting with Kevin Ferrara. Hi Kevin KF: Hey Dani how are you? DD: I’m doing well, How are you? KF: I’m doing well. DD: Alright, Kevin can you tell me where you’re from and where you currently live? KF: Sure, I grew up here in central Pennsylvania, and after doing 20 years in the military I came full circle. Came back here. Right now I live in Wolrich, Pennsylvania, which is, for those that are unfamiliar it’s between State college, home of Penn State, and Williamsport, home of little league baseball. So if you look at a Pennsylvania map I’m almost smack dab in the center. DD: Awesome, and how long have you been in Wolrich? KF: Moved back here a couple years now. I retired from the Air Force in 2017. I grew up in Avis, Pennsylvania which is about 3 or 4 miles down the road from Wolrich. But born and raised here in Pennsylvania, grew up here all my life with the exception of the military. DD: Okay, Thank you. Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAs in your communities? KF: I absolutely can. I started a volunteer firefighter service here in Pennsylvania in 1988. Foam really wasn’t an issue, the firefighting foam that contains PFAS [Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances] that we found. It really wasn’t being used here in central Pennsylvania. I only became a aware of it and started seeing it in 1991 when I entered the United States Air Force. We went through the DOD [Department of Defense] fire academy at the time. Which was at Son Nhut Air Force Base in Ranto, Illinois. We were exposed to it, slathered in it, ya know, covered in it. It got in our eyes, our ears, our mouth, you know, on our bare skin. And then after I left Cant-or, Son Nhut Air Force Base. My first assignment was Cannon Air Force base in Clovis, New Mexico. And That's getting a lot of attention now because of the dairy farmers, that are �nearby. Their dairy cows are contaminated, the Aquaphor systems are contaminated. And the reason for that because we release each trip firefighting foam that contained PFAS pretty much every day. So I got out for 6 years in 1995, I returned here to Pennsylvania, only to return back to the Air Force in 2001. Different bases I was assigned to. It was the same thing. We used the firefighting foam that has PFAS in it pretty much every day. I eventually got to Langley Air Force Base and their combat command headquarters started seeing some emails about PFAS and everything. But throughout my 20 year career I was exposed to A-trip firefighting foam that we now know contained toxic PFAS. And you know, unfortunately we are learning now that the turnout gear, the firefighter turnout gear, that we wore for all of that time contained PFAS as well, the protective coating. So, firefighters, we got a double dose. There was really no way we could get away from the stuff. And you know, that was my experiences, you know. Either, you know, being physically exposed to it, you know with the products the firefighters use, in the drinking water. You know so, firefighters, we have a larger exposure than what the normal everyday citizen gets. DD: Can you say a little bit more about the, you said that you were using foam almost daily or daily. What kinds of things were you doing or why were you using foam? KF: Sure. So, at Cannon Air Force Base, what we, this is where I got the routine of, they call it an operational check, and all of the airport rescue firefighting vehicles or crash trucks. As a lot of us call them. We would take the trucks on the flight lines, somewhere on the flight line and discharge, and actually turn on the foam system. And discharge foam to make sure the trucks were operational. We did this every day, ya know, 365 days a year. We had 2 shifts. My shift would do it every other day, the other shift would do it every other day. It wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be a lot, but it added up over time, and this happened at every military installation that had a flying mission. So if you had a crash truck, the crews took the trucks on a flight line or the training areas, somewhere on the installation and discharge foam to just simply make sure it was operational. Aside from that, if we obviously had an emergency, and aircraft incident where we needed to spray foam we would do that. And you know some of the incidents it was copious amounts. We had foam trailers, there was a few incidents, 1,000 gallon foam trailers, where we would have to, employ that and start using that foam, some incidents, depending on the size of the incidents. It would not be uncommon to discharge, hundreds of gallons of foam, concentrate, that was pure foam, into the environment. Training exercises. We would do live fire training, and use copious amounts of foam, to suppress that as well. Because for liquid fuel fire the only way you can put it out is to sit there for hours let it burn out or discharge foam. That would snuff it out and extinguish the fire. And that happened at every installation that had those capabilities. So, you know, Air Force alone there was over 200 plus military installations, just here in the United States. That would do that almost every day. You know. Operations checks you know, monthly live fire training. �DD: You mentioned earlier, drinking water, can you say more about that? KF: Sure, so at Cannon Air Force Base, in- I only learned all this in the past couple years, you know. While I was active duty in the military nobody ever told us about, you know, the hazards you know, with firefighting foam, PFAS, and contamination. And I’ve since learned with drinking water contamination at Cannon Air Force base, like I said, we would discharge the foam every day and that seeped into the aquifer system. At Cannon Air Force base, the city of Clovis, that was a mile down the road from the base, and residents in between. Their drinking water came from wells that pulled water out of these aquifer systems. So the entire time I was at Cannon Air Force base, you know, the four years I was there, I was polluting the aquifer system, and then as unknown to us we were drinking that polluted aquifer. So we were drinking contaminated water. So it came full circle. I don't know if it was karma for us or what [chuckle] you know, I feel guilty. You know. Had i known then there is no way I would have discharged the foam you know. There are so many people, and it’s not just in New Mexico. I mean it’s across the country, Michigan is getting a lot of attention because of the contamination up there. Here in Pennsylvania we just recently learned one-third of the state has PFAS pollution in drinking water. And it's shocking to know that and the more and more research that goes on the more and more water systems we find are polluted with PFAS. DD: How did you, start to learn, that, about PFAS and that is was a problem? KF: Well, like I said, I was at air combat command from 2010 til 2017 when I retired and about 2014 I started seeing a few emails that popped up that had the acronym PFAS in it. So it PFAS, P-F-A-S, and then we say the acronym PFOA, P-F-O-A and PFOS, P-F-O-S. But there was really no other emails or clarification that specified or defined what those acronyms meant. So I sort of just of- I'll be honest, I brushed them off. I like okay, you know, they are talking about it, but there is no other guidance behind it. And after it retired, the environmental working group sort of got in touch with me, through a fellow firefighter, and during some conversations that when they started sending me information the military timelines, of H triple F and PFAS and the more I read through it, I could physically feel my body just start tingling in frustration and anger, in shock and awe because since 1973 I found the military knew about H triple F and that it contained PFAS and it was hazardous. Up until, you know, from that point up until probably a few years ago nobody really said anything. And it was, pretty much left up to me and other firefighters to dig for this information and that's really the only way we found out what PFAS was. Through a network of environmental groups. Fellow firefighters that really started digging into this, and you know it was it was just unbelievable that the foam manufacturers, the military, there was people that knew about this. We as firefighters, we as veterans, we as military personnel were never told about this. And definitely the public was never told about this. Which is, it’s alarming to know, only 50 years this stuff has been going on and only now are we really �scratching the surface of the amount of damage PFAS had caused within our environment, within our communities. DD: So you post retirement, sounds like, you pretty much started kind of uncovering and learning about the situation, and then what for you? KF: Well, I sort of got trust into the whole PFAS and firefighter safety thing. I have no regrets of doing it, you know, like you said you know, I’m retired, I do my own fire service consulting, I do a podcast with firefighter health and safety, and I’ve gotten so much feedback with these firefighters. Not just here in the United States but really across the globe that are impacted by firefighting foam that contains PFAS, turnout gear that contains PFAS, and I’m getting bombarded. And I appreciate it because it is a learning for both me and those that are sending me questions. I’m getting bombarded with questions though. One, what is PFAS, because, you know, it’s simply not out there, and I keep foot stomping education, education, education on what PFAS is. I’m dealing with legislation, I’ve talked to congress you know, participated in some of the hearings down there in DC, on PFAS, for mediation and protection of firefighters. You know. I’m doing surveys, you know, I guess at the end of the day, I'm doing what I’m doing. I’m trying to educate firefighters, protecting them, because really nobody in, I’ll say leadership, you know, the government entities, it simply doesn’t seem that they are doing enough, if anything at all to really educated and protect firefighters. So, you know, like I said before I got nothing to lose as a retiree. I got a lot of time on my hands, so you know. I’m happy to go ahead and-and do all the-the behind the scenes effort to help firefighters. Cause the last thing I want them to do is worry about, what is PFAS, what their health and safety when they are on the job. They got to focus on the job and not worry about, you know, these other things. You know. If I can let them focus on their job and then on their off days get them spun up on what PFAS is, then that’s what I’m happy to do. DD: I mean there's already so much risk in firefighting though. {chuckle} KF: Yeah, that's what I tell everybody. You know, firefighting is inherently dangerous, we know that. You know, but the products that were supplied to us, you know, the firefighting foam and the turnout gear. The last thing we expected is the products we used to perform our jobs were actually harming us. You know, we know going into a burning building, you know going into a hazardous material situation it’s going to be risky like you said. But you know for god sakes provide us with some products, some equipment that isn't going to harm us before we get to the incident scene. DD: Yeah, It sounds like PFAS is really impacting your life in multiple ways. Both, you know, personally and through your work as you worked with the foam and the gear. But also now it’s �shaping your life and the activities that you are doing. The service and leadership you are providing. KF: It has. I’ll be honest, when I retired, I did 20 years in the military, 20 years in the air force and I was ready to hang up firefighting. You know I was like, I did it and I was like let me move onto something else. And then, I got involved with a local volunteer department down here and then of course that the PFAS issue came up and it brought me, it sort of sucked me back in. And like I said I have no regrets of doing it, I’m actually excited, you know, to be able to help. But it is, it’s a life changing issue. I got some health concerns with my exposure, not as bad as a lot of the firefighters I’ve talked to. PFAS whether it’s physically impact, mentally impact, its causing people to think and rethink the way they operate and the way they live. DD: What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? KF: You know, I’ve always said until you cut off the source of contamination you can’t fix the problem. You know. The problem being that PFAS contamination is ongoing. You know. Remediation efforts are years down the road. There's still a lot of research and testing going on. Until you cut off that source of contamination you really can’t start doing anything else. And now with firefighters, the DOD they are now looking at replacing the fluorinated foams with the non-fluorinated foams they have to do that by 1 October 2023. Which is fiscal year 24, but that's, I've always said, that time frame, that gap in there, you still have firefighters and nonpersonnel still being exposed to fluorinated foam. It’s still in use. A lot of the volunteer departments, the municipal departments are not getting a lot of the conversation with this. A lot of focus on military with DOD and federal level, but the same foam, the same turnout gear is being used within our municipal, fire departments or local communities. And that is where is a lot of the exposure is occurring. So I think going forward education is number 1. Getting people informed with that, meeting with their local leaders, local fire departments and really pushing the issue and saying look, we have to cut off the source, and then go from there. DD: What kinds of advice do you give to people who are active still in firefighting, when they learn about PFAS, but then they ask then what now? KF: The first piece of advice that I tell them is personal protection. Don’t rely on others, you know, and that goes for everybody, is that, your personal safety starts with you. In terms of your situational awareness, if you are around the foam, make sure you have proper, you know, personal proper protective equipment on, gloves, you know, certain clothing, definitely eye, you know, eye protection. Don’t for the volunteer firefighters that take their turnout gear home, I can’t stress this enough, don’t take it, and put it in your vehicle. A lot of firefighters will just put it in their truck, on top of the gear, on top of the PFAS, obviously, you know is the soot and other products or combustion that absorbs into the turnout gear. So, you know, I tell them all of that as �you transfer, gets onto your clothes, your skin then they take it home and now you have crossed contaminated your home. You know, that with fire fighters that live in the fire station. The same thing. Don’t wash your personal clothing with, you know, your duty clothing, your work uniforms and everything. You know, it’s really a matter of, you know, just taking personal precautions, wash your hands, use gloves when you using turnout gear, don’t use turnout gear if you don’t have to, obviously we can’t get away from that as firefighters. But if you don’t have to put it on, don’t put it on. It’s that simple. Showers, after every call, take a shower and wash all of those contaminates off because we’ve learned that turnout gear especially is creates what is called PFAS dust. And you may not see that, and you know it covers the inside of the truck, it gets absorbed into the air condition systems, and it just, like I said you know just, situation awareness is the big thig. Be aware of your surroundings. Be aware of what you are using and then personal hygiene, decontamination procedures and then go from there. If you are worried about the drinking water, look at different filtration systems that are out there. Now there's only a few that’ll filter out PFAS and there are a little expensive, you know. But, again talk to your- I would say talk to your local water suppliers in the community, and say hey are you testing for PFAS? Are you filtering for PFAS? If there not, you know, it's a judgement call. You may want to look at bottled water. I know the military handed out bottled water to some communities because of the PFAS contamination. It's tough, we could go on and on and on and talk about what should be done and you know, what needs to be done, what's not done, but at the end of the day, you know like I said, it comes down to, you know, everybody is responsible for their own safety and to do their homework. That's a big thing, you know, research on this. DD: Are there particular things on your agenda, your next steps, or things that you're looking towards? KF: Yeah. There are a few pieces of legislation, right now, that I'm trying to get pushed. There's the Mike Elestic Firefighting Protection Act. Um. And that pretty much talks about military firefighters, and with PFAS contamination. Cause I worked with Mike, I had a little bit of a crossover with Mike who's a former Air Force firefighter and then he went as a DOD civilian firefighter. So that’s sort of near and dear to my heart. There’s a Neil Hogan piece of legislation out there as well, for federal firefighters. We're just trying to get, whether it’s local, state, or federal officials to really get involved in this to make this a priority. It should be a bipartisan matter, but it seems like it’s not. There’s you know. You know there’s as with any piece of legislation there’s back and forth on it but at the end of the day for me, you know, I’m really passionate about this, put all your differences aside and look at the big picture and say hey, this is a health and safety issue. Not just for firefighters, for everybody, Americans, people overseas, cause it's a global issue. It's, you know, not just an isolated issue. Then really you know, personally just educating firefighters. You know, I'm an instructor here in the state of Pennsylvania, so, you know, I’m working with the state fire academy to push this out more, and more, and educate firefighters. Obviously with my podcast you know. I do that. Any opportunity �I get to talk about this, you know, I get excited about this because it, that tells me that this topic is getting the attention that it needs to. So that's where I am today. The more I can talk about it the better. DD: From an education standpoint, do you find that this is something that, is being included in instruction and education, that these kinds of topics? Or is this something that is maybe, is still coming or could be included more? KF: Depending on where you're at. Here in Pennsylvania, you know, I had the pleasure of working with the state fire academy on their administrator on a PFAS awareness program. It’s a short program, its baby steps, it's the first step towards getting to the bigger picture. I don’t believe the department of defense is really doing much. They sent out a few fact sheets, a few brochures. I’m not really sure what they're doing at the DOD fire academy. I think they do mention it a little bit but it's not getting the attention it really needs to. Like I said within the volunteer fire service community, you know, its hard getting, you know first and foremost, its hard getting training with volunteer firefighters, simply because of funding. But they get the word out, it's a challenge. And I say that because for the longest time firefighters have been using foam and there's a big misconception that foam is safe. You know, it's simply soap and water. There’s nothing wrong with it and it's time to get that mentality out of the fire service and educate them and prove to them that, no, firefighting foam that contains PFAS isn’t soap and water. It's actually harmful, it's actually toxic. But I found that once you change the mentality, once you open their eyes and ears to it, they're more receptive then, you know, they sort of lean in and their like hmm maybe, you know, there is something to be concerned about here. But that’s the biggest challenge, is getting the word out and educating folks. I wish every state fire academy across the United States would incorporate, similar programs that they have here in Pennsylvania. Overseas they’re starting to do that, it's gaining a lot of attention. I know in Australia they have a really great program. They got rid of, you know, a lot of the PFAS foams. So there is some success stories out there. I just wish it would reverberate across the oceans and you know, where everybody would be on the same page but unfortunately were not there yet. DD: Well it sounds like you’re working to make that happen. KF: I’m trying {laughs} I’m doing the best I can. {chuckle} DD: Well, Kevin, before I wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or anything you would like to go back to and say more about? KF: The big thing is, you know, like I said with the water contamination, I would just encourage your audience members to reach out to their local community leadership and start asking the questions. Be like, hey, you know, PFAS is on the radar, we heard a lot about it in the media, �What are we doing locally? Don’t be afraid to ask questions. And you know, especially for the firefighters out there don't be afraid to ask questions. Because at the end of the day, like I said before you know, health and safety is the big thing and if you don't ask the questions you're never going to know the answer. And you’re never going to know if those that are responsible are doing what they should be doing to protect those they serve. You know, with news media, any type of media, please pick up on this and talk about it cause the, you know almost with any topic, the more and more you talk about it, the more and more people listen to, and you know, as they start uniting. That coalition, that network becomes stronger and stronger. As a team, that's where we all come together and get rid of PFAS. Or at least, you know, regulate it and minimize exposure. Because I don’t think we will ever get rid of PFAS but you know at the very least we need to minimize unnecessary exposure to it. The other thing is PFAs blood testing. That’s something that I’m really pushing for right now is PFAS blood testing cause we really don’t know what's in our body unless you test for it. Something that I found with firefighters is that they have high levels of PFAS in their blood. Unfortunately there is no magic pill to get rid of it. But that’ll tell us, do we need to, you know, it's almost a threshold. The EPA said 70 parts per trillion of PFAS in drinking water but if we see elevated levels of PFAS in firefighters blood, then we can say, okay let's get you away from PFAS so we don’t add to that. You know unfortunately it has a huge half-life so it’s going to take a while. And that's something a lot of firefighters have contacted me about is their medical concerns. If I have a high level of PFAS am I going to get cancer? Am I going to get some other medical illness? And that's a big concern, and it goes back to what I said before, is that. I don't want to see firefighters focusing on that and getting hurt on the job because their mind is elsewhere. You know, worrying about am I going to get sick, is my family going to get sick. There's a lot of work to do, you know, with PFAS, I appreciate you getting involved in this. And many others cause like I said I mean, the more people involved the more attention is going to get, and I think the faster action is going to be taken to protect citizens, fire fighters, everybody that either is or could potentially be exposed to PFAS. DD: Yeah absolutely. Thank you so much Kevin for taking the time to share your story and experiences today. KF: Great, like I said before I appreciate the invite. Thank you, Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0031 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ferarra, Kevin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-09-29 Title A name given to the resource Kevin Ferrara, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Kevin Ferrera grew up in central Pennsylvania and returned there after spending 20 years in the military. Kevin discusses his work exposure to PFAS through firefighting foam used on air force bases. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d78d6d94563d28930982ca61f3eaa0c.mp4 22491f9ba048278e2d8dd9643a079a11 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/55a40c932540d996abf4dcbe3c8193e1.pdf 82042907c93efdb20d9d73755a0aa8dc PDF Text Text Living With PFAS Interviewee: Rick Rediske Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: 5/25/2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, May 25th 2021, I have the Pleasure of chatting with Dr. Rick Rediske. Thank you so much, Rick, for being here today. RR: Good morning. DD: Good morning. Can you tell me about where you are from and where you currently live? RR: Well, I'm originally from the Milwaukee Wisconsin area and moved to Ohio and then moved to Ann Arbor area to finish my doctorate there and then move to West Michigan. So [chuckling] kind of did a little bit of a circle there. DD: And how long have you been in West Michigan, roughly? RR: I've been in West Michigan since 1980 ― so. DD: Okay, all right. Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS [Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances] or with PFAS in your community? I know you likely have many. RR: Yeah, I guess the one to talk about mostly is House Streets in the Rockford area. So I was asked by a group of concerned citizens that were watching the demolition ― they watch the demolition of the Tannery and they took all sorts of pictures and were concerned that contaminants were still present. The contaminants were taken off the site, and they wanted an expert to help them tie the discussion together and get the EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] involved. So I originally turned them down because there was ― a lot of stigma about what they were doing, because Wolverine was a exemplary corporate citizen. They paid for you know ― a real nice boat launch, they paid for river improvements, the Rogue River. They were certainly active in the City of Rockford. And I had friends that have businesses in Rockford etc. And they said you know, steer away from these people, they [chuckle] don't know what they're doing. And ― and like I said I told them no, and then they came back a year later and actually came to visit me in my office and brought me a whole bunch of pictures. Lynn McIntosh who is the ― I guess the leader of the CCRR [Concerned Citizens for Responsible Remediation of Rockford ] ― she is a former art music teacher and she likes to draw things and ― anyway after seeing what she put together and some of the records, I became convinced that there was an issue at the Tannery. We weren't looking at PFAS back then but as I went through all of the data and looked up what was done at the Tannery, where they have the Scotchgard and made Hush Puppies, yeah I became more and more concerned about PFAS [computer notification] being at the Tannery and then wherever they disposed of their waste. DD: And what ― roughly when was all of this happening? What time? 1 �RR: Well this was a ― I think about 2012, 2013 in that time frame. DD: And were you aware of PFAS at this time? Cause I know many people were not. RR: Yeah, I've always ― I have taught classes in environmental chemistry and toxicology, and I always mention PFAS as being one of those materials that was a miracle. Scotchgard when that came out, I mean it’s changed the carpet forever and the Gore-Tex clothing. So I had you know both of those in my household. And I tell all the students that we thought everything was safe and then we found out that it wasn't. And 3M got out of producing it. So I do include that story in you know my lectures every year. DD: So once you were convinced that there was an issue, then what? What came next? RR: Well then it was my job to put the information together that would help get the DEQ's [Department of Environmental Quality] attention at the time. They were very much supportive of what the ― DEQ was very supportive [computer notification] of what Wolverine was doing. So they were trying to redevelop the property for commercial and residential. And the DEQ, didn't you know, didn't necessarily approve of the plan but they certainly weren't finding any fault with you know what they were up to. So there was concern about the chemicals that were left behind. And what got me interested in PFAS was that there was a fish study in the Rogue River right outside of the Tannery, and the Smallmouth bass and White sucker were at levels that would triggered the Fish Consumption Advisories, so I knew there had to be PFAS coming from the Tannery getting[chuckles] into the water, I mean you wouldn't have a Fish Advisory there if that wasn't the case. And then probably about a year later in 2000 yeah 2017 ― well 2016, Lynn McIntosh and Janice Tompkins, two of the CCRR members did some personal interviews. They found the waste hauler that actually was willing to give an interview saying that he took waste from the Tannery and dumped them on House Street and dump them in a few other places. So once we found out about House Street, we were really concerned because that had residential breaking wells around it, water wells. So yeah it's kind of the history. I was kind of reluctant person and then I got really involved and ― I helped bring the issue to the forefront with the interviews for the newspaper and things like that. DD: And are you still involved now? RR: Yes, I'm involved with the Community Advisory Group or the CAG. And we don't have a super fun status, the site is not a super fun site. But given all of the interest, the EPA is allowing for the formation of a Citizen Advisory Group or Community Advisory Group. Excuse me. Which is ― we don't have a power to reject something, all we have the ― we got all the information so, all the information is given to the CAG members and then we can comment on whatever the EPA and whatever Wolverine is doing. So we have a ability to comment that a lot of citizen groups do not have, we have a direct channel that was formed because it’s a Community Advisory Group. DD: What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? 2 �RR:Well the biggest concern is cleaning up the contaminated groundwater. There's 25 square miles of contaminated groundwater that need to be addressed in one form or another. And then the other big issue is all the health studies that are going on. There's a number of blood and public health kind of related studies that are going on for people that have been exposed through contaminated drinking water. And I think they have already 1000 participants I think I heard that number. So it started out really slow, there was only a couple hundred, and again the Community Advisory Group got involved with helping to recruit. We had a couple committees and we got that number back up so it's going to be a pretty solid study. DD: Is the Community Advisory Group involved with the groundwater remediation at all, too? RR: Well we’re involved with everything Wolverine. So we’re involved with the Tannery clean up, and then we're involved with the Wolven Jewell and the House Street groundwater cleanups. So we’re ― there’s I think four different types of work plans that are coming out this year that we have to review. So we just completed reviewing the Tannery poultry system and now we're reviewing the groundwater and surface water interface, the GSI [Groundwater-Surface Water Interface] interface for House Street. DD: Sounds like you are going to be busy. RR: Yeah, they’re quite lengthy. And they’re technical documents and they have to be ― made more friendly to the general public. So you have to explain why they’re doing things and [clears throat] trying [chuckle] explain why they are not doing things which is a challenge. But yeah it's ― I think we’ve got almost 30 people, 27 or something like that and each one has a different perspective. So we have to all reach consensus on how we want to comment on these documents. DD: Sounds like a challenging process. RR: Yes. DD: Before we wrap up, is there anything you'd like to add that we haven't touched on today? Any part of your work with PFAS or is anything you'd like to go back to to say more about? RR: Well I think we're just scratching the surface in the Rockford area as far as trying to fix the damage to the Rogue River. I think that's our big challenge. And you know the ― I think the public health ― I mean they responded for the blood levels and getting safe drinking water. But we have a big challenge to be able to fish and enjoy the Rogue River again so that's out there. And then the other issue is there are so many PFAS compounds out there that were ― every day we find out something new. And you know if I would have done this interview a year ago I would have said 4 to 5000 compounds [unclear] it’s 8000 compounds. DD: Wow. RR: There is just a plethora of these materials that are out in the environment. And you know we’re ― we have to deal with them because they contaminate our drinking water and they're in our food. So it's really a long-term problem that we’re faced with. 3 �DD: Can you say any more about the fish that ― the dealing with the fish and the river? You mention that’s something that we're going to have to address. RR: Yeah. There are several places across the state. Most notably Wurtsmith Air Force Base, the Au Sable River, and then the Rogue River and the Clinton River, excuse me not Clinton but the [hand hits the table multiple times] ― Huron River its got a lot of contamination. There is a lot of areas in the state where this water has been discharged and the fish have accumulated the PFOS [Perfluorooctane sulfonic acid] [spells out letters] is the compound. It's one of the more toxic ones and it's one of the few that does bio accumulate like that. So there is warnings out at different places around the state for not being able to consume fish that contain PFAS. And it was just recently the smelt runs up in Lake Superior had contamination so it's not just limited to our locations. And it doesn't take very much. I mean we’re dealing with parts per trillion all the other contaminants were parts per million and parts per billion. So we're down in a much lower concentration level than we are from most other compounds. DD: Parts per trillion sounds like something that would be really tricky to deal with. Tests you know― test for, communicate about. ― RR: It is it is. And that’s my analogy of cutting a dollar bill which is a grand. You cut that into a thousand pieces then you cut one 1000th into a thousand pieces, and you cut one of those 1000th of a 1000th into a[chuckle] [computer notification] thousand pieces and that's a part per trillion. [chuckle] So you know it's a very small amount of material. But as I ― when I talked about it it's one of the few contaminates that circulates in our blood. So it catches a ride on our major carrier protein that carries are antibodies and carries our hormones. And it's just not something that we want you know in our bodies or in the environment. DD: Well, thank you so much Rick for taking the time to share some of your story today. RR: Sure, sure glad to do it. 4 �5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rediske, Rick Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05-25 Title A name given to the resource Rick Rediske, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Dr. Rick Rediski is a professor of Environmental Health Sciences at the Robert Annis Water Research Institute at Grand Valley State University and has lived in West Michigan since around 1980. In this interview, Dr. Rediski discusses is involvement in the PFAS contamination situation in Michigan. After learning of chemical dumping in residential water areas, Dr. Rediski helped to bring the issue to the forefront with interviews to news organizations. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4584a08af3877edd2c552c594af6a135.mp4 502a957b3518dee8a5ec857cb1eb750b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ef91903aafff181b946c400aef5d06f5.pdf f3c941f94a96ee70e899b460c8a5fb33 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Brian Steglitz Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: October 8, 2021 Dani DeVasto: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, October 8, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Brian Steglitz. Hi Brian! Brian Steglitz: How are you? DD I’m fine, how are you? BS: Good! DD: Brian, can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live? BS: So, I originally grew up in New Jersey, and have lived in several different locations. I was working in Washington D.C. for a consulting firm before I moved to Michigan 25 years ago to take a job with the city of Ann Arbor, as their weather treatment services engineer, so I’ve been here since 1997, currently live in Ann Arbor, I am president of our water system, too, and currently serving as the manager of the water treatment services unit for the city. DD: Alright. Brian, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS, or with PFAS in your community? BS: Uhh sure, so for us it really started back in 2014 when we had to sample this drinking water as part of a safe drinking water act requirement, part of the monitoring rule, which is part of what EPA looks at for evaluating emerging contaminants. So we had data from our water system dating back to 2014 but we didn’t hear anything about it for several years. You know, EPA comes up with lists of these things, utilities typically don’t know what the health issues are, or really much about these, we just know that these are what they want data on so we continue to investigate and explore. So, it wasn’t until probably 2016, 2017 it sort of started to become more, the media picked up on some of these contaminants, the environmental working group did a piece on utilities across the country that had PFAS in them, the water in Ann Arbor was featured there, there was a news article that, “There are poisons in the city of Ann Arbor’s water,” and the next thing I knew is Channel 7 news was showing up at our doorstep, wanting to interview me about what we’re doing about these poisons in our waters. So, it was sort of a trial by fire, we had no, we really didn’t have any information about what these things are, what they did. No real indication that the levels we had were or were not problematic, so I mean, once again the media sort of dictated the conversation so at that point we were really scrambling. So we began to do our homework and understand what the science was around these chemicals and where is this coming from, you know you, and back at that time, a lot of the contamination associated PFAS was groundwater related in airport bases, it’s used as part of firefighting foam, so A-FFF is a common thing sprayed on fires in our airports, it can get into groundwater, we actually have 2 sources of water for our water supply, the first one being huron river, and the second one being wells, and the wells are on our Ann Arbor airport property, so we were like, “Let’s go, let’s sample the groundwater and then we can figure out what we can do about it, we can replace the FFF that’s at the airport with a safer firefighting foam, maybe that will take care of the issue. So this is what was going through our minds, originally the samples that we were �doing were regulatory sampling, it was just in our finished water, so we didn’t know what the source was, so we were just checking what the finished water contains. So it turns out it wasn’t our well water, our wellwater had non-detectable levels of PFAS, so we were like, “Wow, that’s really weird,” and we were at that point, no one had heard of any contamination levels associated with PFAS, so we started to explore and we measured it, and it was in the heron river. We started doing some analytical testing and we went upstream and we were trying to see where, was there a certain distance upstream, does it just disappear, like can we find out where maybe it’s getting into the watershed? And we might’ve gone up maybe ten miles north of Ann Arbor in our watershed, and we just continued to see it at similar concentrations, so there’s this background, on the river? We really didn’t know where it was going, we started engaging conversations with the state of Michigan, they ended up putting together a really robust sampling unit, and they went way upstream, like they went over 50 miles upstream, and they quickly found that there is a creek entering the huron river that is 50 miles upstream that had extremely high levels of PFAS. I think at the time it was tens of thousands of parts per trillion, and just to give you a magnitude, we were seeing like somewhere between 50 to 100 parts per trillion of total PFAS at our intake down in Ann Arbor, so it it was getting into the river at tens of thousands, then being diluted as it mixed in with the main stretch of the river, so then they started exploring this creek, so what’s coming in from this creek? The wixam waters treat plant empties their discharge into this creek, so their affluent was sampled, extremely high levels of PFAS. So anyway, to make a longer story shorter, it ended up that there is a manufacturing company that called Tribar, who manufactures parts for the auto industry and they use PFAS containing chemicals as part of their suppressant to protect their workers, and it’s in their wastewater, and it’s all over their property, so it’s getting into their storm drains, and so they were, they’re probably the source of at least 50% of the PFAS that we see in Ann Arbor. So this took a while, this wasn’t something we discovered right away, this was maybe years in as we went through this investigation. So the state began to intervene, they’re out of our jurisdiction so we had little control, and there’s also limited to no regulation, so there were some health advisory levels at this time, but no regulation, so a lot of this was just collaborative work, like, “are there things you can do?” so the polluter was not very responsive to taking any voluntary action, so it took some litigation involving attorney, and consent degrees to eventually implement some changes, and in subsequently they put in some treatment on their discharges that go to the wixam plant and now there are guidelines for the wastewater, that comes out or wixam that gets to the river, unfortunately they’re still out of line with what the drinking water standards are, so we are still responsible for taking out PFAS from our source water, which I think is very unfortunate, because customers in Ann Arbor are paying for PFAS remediation which should be handled, but that’s the philosophical discussion, but it is part of our story, and it’s something that I’m still fighting for, and I think we should be looking at this more holistically at a water shed level and make sure that there is alignment, they’re putting it in, I think they should be responsible for taking it out, so my customers don’t have to deal with it. So that’s the story of how it got into the system. Through this time a lot of other things have happened, also. So, there was Sconan Michigan where they had some surface water bodies that had this very bright white foam accumulating, and there were some stories about PFAS accumulating in the foam, and it’s a health issue and people should stay away from it, well, we operate and maintain four dams on the river, and as the water cascades over these dams, foam is generated, and in some cases �there’s standing foam on the river, and one of my bright ideas is, “Let’s sample this, just to make sure that there’s not high concentrations of PFAS, and of course where you look you will find, and we found PFAS in the high tens of thousands of parts per trillion, and in foam sitting in the heron river where we have people recreate. So we share this information with the state and people were just freaking out, because no one had had done this type of sampling in this type of environment, so very quickly, all the health departments in the state were together in a meeting explaining our situation to them and we’re deciding, “What do we do about this,” and in parallel with this, the state was taking samples from fish that were living in the heron, and analyzing them for PFAS, and very quickly we finding that there were hundreds of thousands of parts per trillion in certain species of fish, so they’re just trying to deal with all these different issues, we have the drinking water issues, we have the environmental exposure issues, so very soon there was a “do not eat fish” advisory and it still exists, due to PFAS along the huron river and we have a lot of anglers who fish. Ann Arbor also has the largest livery in the state of Michigan, in terms of people, and we have people who canoe and kayak and paddleboard across all these areas where we have accumulated foam. So subsequently to this there was a “do not eat foam” advisory, and we never thought that people were coming to Ann arbor just to eat foam, but we had to post signage to reflect that risk and people had dogs swimming in there keep them away, so it became a big thing where we were dealing with this from a lot of different places. We eventually tested things like our compost and we found PFAS in our compost and there’s still really not a clear direction that has been given to customers that are using this. If you’re putting your compost into your vegetable garden, there’s a chance of getting some uptake in your food, so should we post the PFAS levels, and what does that mean? Are there hazards? We’re still dealing with this evolving issue, and it’s not just a drinking water issue, it’s a community issue. I think we’re been very transparent about how we handle this and sharing data with our community and we’ve been very upfront about talking about it even when we didn’t have the answers and I think that this has built up a lot of trust in our communities. We completely revamped our public strategies once this hit because if you look at our media coverage of Ann Arbor in 2016-17, it was all about poisons. This is not the type of coverage you want as a drinking water utility. You want people to be drinking your water, and if they’re not, you can’t serve them. So we hired somebody to help with this conversation, so we rebranded the utility because of PFAS, and we developed a new logo. We have this URL that’s called qualitywatermatters.org and we use that to talk about this issue. Quality associated with us was really important to us. If you look at how the community has responded after several years, we’ve completely changed the perspective on Ann Arbor water, and we’re seen as a leader, we’ve participated with the state, I’ve testified on PFAS in congress. We are seen as (Audio cuts out) Ann Arbor Handle it. We have a newsletter called quality water matters and we have as close to real time information as we can, that we send out monthly. Normally we’d submit our report yearly, six months into the next one, so the data is old, but now it’s every month, with these emerging contaminants. It’s been a big part of what I’ve been dealing with these past several years, but I think we’ve learned a lot and we’ve done a really good job of dealing with a problem that was fatal to the water. We’re on the cusp of a $100M water improvement plan and we need to get community support for this. This is the largest water system project in history of Ann Arbor, and right now what we’re finding is that one of the alternatives is connecting to Grand Rapids water authority. Should we maintain water autonomy or should we join with the �water system and make the investments in Ann Arbor? Our township customers in Ann arbor township are all saying we’re able to deal with these water threats. We want to keep control of the water system, and 5 years ago they wouldn’t have said that, so being transparent tells them we’re able to handle this, which helps. We’ve been part of research. We’ll do whatever we do to make our water drinkable, and I want people to know we’re looking for solutions for everyone in the water community. We have pilot systems we’ve set up to study how to better remove these, with types of filtering media, exchange resins, things that we don’t have at our plant, we’re building and looking at capabilities to remove these, and we’ll be publishing this, so we’re part of the solution, developing answers. DD: That’s awesome, that’s inspiring, so it really sounds like you’ve been busy! BS: We’ve been busy, yeah! DD: So you mentioned before, you kind of told the story of how the PFAS got into the water, can you say anything about how it’s now getting out? BS: So we quickly started to look at the tools in our toolbox, and we already had an inland water river. In Michigan, that’s unusual, we’re surrounded by the great lakes, there’s a lot of groundwater, but an inland river has very significant water quality variability because it rains and the water river could change rapidly, so our plant is probably the most complex in Michigan, so we already had a lot of technology to deal with stuff like this, so we have filters that contain grano activated carbon, that’s probably the best available thing that can remove PFAS, but we weren’t using the right medium, a different type of carbon. There’s lots of variables, and we settled with one, and we used it for all of it, and it took a couple of years. Our filters are mixed media, they have sand and carbon. Sand is a marble, but carbon has a bigger surface area, and PFAS will stick to it, and the carbon will absorb the PFAS and other things, so you have to replace it, which we already did. Once we started doing that, we looked at how long it would take, so we started sampling filters to predict the life expectancy, which while costly, helps. So we settled on a 2 year life, increasing costs by 3K a year. It used to be landfilled, but we’ve been working to regenerate it, cooking the carbon to get rid of the PFAS, one of the best ways to destroy it. They bring it back to us so we can reuse it. We’ve made some graphs for the community about PFAS and how we want to keep from landfilling because that doesn’t help the environment. PFAS strains are different, some we’re able to remove, but not the smaller ones, because the bigger ones will kick them off to stick instead through competitive absorption. We’ll get pretty good removal of all the big ones, the ones we know the most about, but the shorter ones will be coming to. Looking into the future, we’re keeping an eye on what we can do about these little ones, and the public health impacts. This is not going away, we’re still learning, and we’re just trying to stay one step ahead of science so we can be prepared. DD: Well, it sounds like you guys are doing a lot of really good work, and being really proactive which is really nice to hear! So, you did hint at my other question about moving forward, are those the two that you would say, or did you want to add anything else? �BS: I’m concerned about our ability to deal with this that our current tools don’t have and the challenge of making affordable safe water depending upon what the rules are. There is a cost element. We could regulate something at a low level, but nothing exists to do that, so seeing how technology develops for this, and there’s a lot of research and money, and the university of Michigan is looking at using plasmas, I don’t quite understand it, but there’s a lot going on trying to figure out the best solution is. To me, it’s very clear what the best solution is, which is keeping it out of the environment. We’re lobbying the EPA about the toxic substances control act as they look at new poisons, we need to be looking at this ahead of time as opposed to afterwords, which has been the biggest flaw. We need to prevent them from getting in the environment before we do anything, so we’re pusing EPA to use existing tools to protect all of us. DD: For sure. So before we wrap up, is there anything else you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on or anything you’d like to say more about? BS: I don’t think so, unless there’s anything I missed. DD: I very much enjoyed listening to your story and all the work that you’re doing, so thank you so much, Brian, for taking the time to share your story today. BS: You’re welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0032 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steglitz, Brian Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-10-08 Title A name given to the resource Brian Steglitz, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Brian Steglitz moved to Michigan in the late 1990s and currently lives in Ann Arbor. Brian is the manager of the city's water treatment services. In the interview, Steglitz discusses work and response to the presence of PFAS contaminants in the water. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/408938bc0d8864d0b4ea06cad66e1789.mp4 64920388a8ef05f7e9b71c3605783f15 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/89773faf1331a5ce4851ac6e07683ff7.pdf 1d7268b4b89cc3ac172b5e593d4ff1f3 PDF Text Text Living With PFAS Interviewee: Gail Mancewicz Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: September 28, 2021 DD: I’m Dani Devasto, and today September 28th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Gail Mancewicz. Hi, Gail. GM: Hi, how are you? DD: I’m doing well. How are you? GM: I’m doing wonderful. DD: Gail, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live? GM: I’m from Rockford originally, the Rockford area and then I moved to Grand Rapids in 2017 I believe. I and that – and that kind of goes along with this PFAS story. Originally, I moved to Rockford- I lived in the Rockford area all my life. I lived in Cantford. And then I moved to Rockford in 03’ and then I moved from my house, I lived down on a little side street, to Mainstreet in 09’. And then that summer, I’m standing out on my lawn talking to my mother and the [Macintosh?] comes up and she starts talking about the demolition of the [tannery?]. And would you be interested in meeting with residents and talking about this? Sure, sure. So, I go and low and behold they’re - they literally- we wind up babysitting the site as far as proper demolition but were also trying to get them to test. They destroyed all those buildings without doing any testing whatsoever. Of a hundred-year-old [tannery?]. And I was like huh? You're really going to put us all at risk. And then the more we started to dig we realized; this is nuts. We found a 1994 – 90 – yeah 94, inspection of this site. I think it was by MIOSHA. And the housekeeping was deplorable. DD: [laughs] GM: And – And that’s putting it mildly, and when you're dealing with- I mean there's scraps all over the place. And some of them treated, and you can still find scraps. You could put up a telephone pole and find scraps. And – And so that even further encouraged us to keep going. And then we find these waste reports. And they would say, oh no there's no known contaminants on the site. And they’re saying we didn’t use any [unclear] or ammonia or anything. And they're saying we didn’t use any of those and were seeing it in the waste reports. So, no, they’re lying to you, to us. And the city is pushing back on us and I’m sure everyone has heard of the expression of company town. Wolverine was and yes, still is a company town. I’ve heard stories from- my mother heard stories actually, from an old time, he’s no longer with us, business owner who said he couldn’t even practice his religion of Catholicism because he 1 �wanted to be a businessperson. He wound up going out of town to do that and still keeping his business but that’s how much of a hold, that company back in the 50’s had. DD: [mhm] GM: So, but we’re still seeing this when there's pushback, we really don’t want to predict residents from chemicals. This is before we even knew about PFAS. I got into it, I called up Glen and I said I’m worried about this rearing its ugly head 20 years from now in our groundwater. And this was in 2010- 2011. I’d be sitting in there – these meetings with my neighbors and they’re talking about runoff, and I'm saying guys, what about the groundwater? And they’re like no no no no, this is all historical so it’s gonna be runoff. It turned out to be, it's both. We still have - there’s still chemicals in that, but the PFAS has been removed or most of it. It's still going underneath the river and stuff and invading the water supply. And – And so, it is both, there was runoff into the river but then there’s also this water supply issue. And my worry of 20 years came way way too soon. I wish I had been wrong. And so, we're being bullied, and there's articles in the paper. We put out a petition to the EPA, because we weren’t getting anywhere with the [DEQ?]. So, we - we make this petition to the EPA, and they liked it and they came on board. Well, there’s articles in the squire saying how we shouldn’t have done this, and they even printed our names which was supposed to be confidential. Michael made sure that our names got plastered and vilified in that article, which the squire does what he told them to do. And my hunch is he wrote the article. And later, situations with other sites- the editor made it mush, so I knew he was helping her write those articles. So, then I decided I wanted to be in city hall, so I ran for city council, and I won. DD: [chuckles] GM: By 30 sum votes. I beat out an incumbent by 30 sum votes. 300 or something, I forget. It was 3 something, but it was a really close margin. And I still- they would even interrupt me when I was speaking but I couldn’t interrupt them. It was all – it was 2 women and 3 men, and they ruled the roost. And at one point [it was – we were going to have-?] I go to this council meeting, and they say oh yeah, we’re having a meeting that’s, ya know exempt afterwards from public meetings act. And it was - the original part of it and this wasn’t even on the agenda, it was supposed to be on the agenda, and it was about labor, but it still should have been on the agenda. We should have gone out and come back, but they do it all after, and then after that was gone all staff was involved in those labor negotiations left. And then they started to attack me, for my stance on [unclear]. And it was - they were saying oh it's just a Hail Mary and its only ammonia. No, it was a year or so after that PFAS got on our radar. And I left that that meeting and I’m like [I’m not stopping?] this is too important, because lives are at stake. And sure enough, as this progressed and PFAS got to be known, that wound up being this baby jack [I think you’ve- I’ve talked with mother?] and I told people that [hate?] is like a grenade with a pin out. [You don’t know where it’s gonna come?] there's so much PFAS, you don’t know where its gonna manifest itself and how its gonna impact this life. And that’s scary. DD: [mhm] 2 �GM: And that’s why I was in this for decades so that years down the road people don’t say what were they thinking. And I’m still wondering what the town of Rockford was thinking. Because they made people who are impacted sacrificial lambs for their, Wolverine’s, profit margin. And for the town's public image. Of being this nice, cute town. Which, I’m sure you’ve seen some of the articles in the squire, if you haven’t, we will get them to you. Because it was unbelievable, the length they would go to, to stop us. And here people are having cancer because of what they put in the ground. And they didn’t want anybody to know about it, so you wanted people to die without being able to save their lives, without being able to have testing and catch it early. The earlier you catch cancer the better you are surviving. You really wanted to rob people of that? And that’s - that’s what got me into it. I mean, Rockford is supposed to be this predominantly Christian community, but yet there's nothing Christian about what was going on and still going on as far as I’m concerned, [there’s still pushback?]. And it drove me to law school. You know, after age 50 I went to law school, because I wanted- I knew I was being lied to, but I needed to know the laws. DD: [chuckles] GM: And so, I went to law school and that’s why I wound up moving into Grand Rapids. Because I’m visually impaired, I don’t drive. And [Trying to get back from?] law school. [I was going to Cooley law school?] in Grand Rapids. And I needed to move. So, I lost the election. Get this, it was another site that’s not connected to Wolverine that’s contaminated. And they wanted to put, and they are putting a [development?] on it. And I was against that and so they literally pushed me out of that office by getting the Widow of Michael Young on there and really propaganda, I didn’t have a voice and it’s only one paper and she was [unclear] line of Rockford, the city of Rockford. I didn’t have a voice. And it’s crazy and that’s what hurts. Not that they attacked me, it's that they were stopping people from being able to have agency over their own health and knowledge of what was being put in their bodies. DD: When was that? That the – that you lost the election? GM: 2016. DD: Ok. GM: Yeah, I served one term. I thoroughly enjoyed my time. I love representing the people and I like politics. And so - But it was just heartbreaking that they were willing to go to such lengths just for PR and money, and human life is way more valuable than that, way more valuable. DD: [mhm] So, what happened after that? You're-You’re not on the city council anymore, you're in law school. GM: I graduated. 3 �DD: Congrats. GM: In Grand Rapids, I’m still living in Grand Rapids. And I’m still involved in the CAG, and I’m still involved in CCRR. The CAG for those who hear this is the Wolverine Community Advisory Group, its connected with the EPA. And then CCRR is Concerned Citizens for Responsible Redevelopment which is the whole group that started this in the first place. And so, that’s where we’re at now. But there is another story I want to tell of how far they went. That really doesn’t have to do with me but has to do with a member of our group. Janice she was working for [Elboro?]. What does that stand for, it's part of the Grand Valley Metro Council. [And it’s the lower] Grand RapidsDD: Organization of water sheds? GM: Yes. Yup, yup, yes. She was working for them, and Michael got the director, Michael Young go the director to leave, either you work for us entirely and stop working with CCRR or you leave. And she said fine, I’ll leave. [unclear] she said to us later [inaudible] I could work for them full time, and they put out things that were helpful and she did a lot of investigating for us that was so helpful, and she had a knowledge of the DEQ. That, and she could connect us with people, and it was the best thing that ever happened. And God was walking with us. But that’s how, they were even-and it was illegal, but yeah, they impacted her employment just for his own gain, and Wolverine’s own gain. DD: And just for those listening, can you say who is this Michael Young? GM: Michael Young was a city manager of Rockford; he is now deceased. And he was the city manager for 20 years. DD: Ok. GM: Over 20 years. DD: [mhm] GM: And for his 20-year anniversary they had the retired judge [Cervas?] there. They had the news people there, and they were giving him this award about doing environmental work. I had every-and I was on the council at the time. I had everything to do, not to just vomit right there on the, at the table. DD: [chuckles] GM: Because his work paled in significance to what he could have done to help bring proper testing and accountability to Wolverine for the citizens of Rockford and the Rockford area. So that we could stay healthy, so that people could know if they were exposed to carcinogens, and he did nothing for that. His work paled in- Yes, having streams that are shaded and nice are 4 �great for trout fishermen, yeah and I applaud that, but it pales in significance to what he could have done. And I had everything I could do not to vomit right there sitting in front of everybody. DD: It sounds like you’ve been involved in a lot of different ways in your community for dealing with PFAS both through the council and the CAG and the CCRR group, it sounds like you’ve been busy, Gal. GM: I have. I’m not really- I mean now I'm going to be going in a different direction because I’m looking for positions with diversity, equity, and inclusion with my law degree because of my disability, that’s an important thing for me too. And so, there’s a lot going on and it’s pretty amazing and I’m very proud of what I did and what, I, we are continuing to do. In fact, for that group an absence of any one of those people; you know myself, Lynn, Grant Mittich and Lynn’s husband: Mike, Lynn MacIntosh and Mike MacIntosh, we could not have done what we did, it took all of us. There’s no one star, it’s everybody. And that’s what a community is all about, is everybody, not just the businesses but everybody including the residents and Rockford’s forgotten that. They forgot that we pay your taxes too and we need to be listened to and they have still forgotten that. DD: How did CCRR form? GM: That was-that was first the Central Rockford Neighborhood Association. And I was a part of that too, I was the secretary, I ran unopposed, it was really funny. A month into it, I’m running for an office and here I am secretary. And-but some people didn’t want to be a part of the Wolverine thing. So, we split the 2 groups in half. The paper still smushed us together they want to paint everybody in that neighborhood with a bad light. So, then we started CCRR and kept CRNA, Central Rockford Neighborhood Association separate. So that’s how it all started. And I respect some people didn’t want that much drama in their life and it [it is?] a lot of drama. And it’s unfortunate that we- unfortunate because human life is human life and if you’re a right to life [you should be about?] protecting people from carcinogens. [both speaking unclear] DD: How have you handled the drama in your life? GM: I do a lot of venting [laughs] and I for a while was eating my stress. And then-and then I got into law school and that helped because then I was doing something constructive and also that’s why I got on the council because the stress I needed to be doing something, I had to put it in action and that’s what you do when you see something that’s important to you, you put it into action. DD: So, moving forward what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination? 5 �GM: I’m worried about where [unclear] are going and we’re still finding stray barrels around and I’m worried that they're not testing about- with it- and there are other areas in fact I’ve got to even get my mother’s water tested and I’ve got to figure out how to do that. She lives out in [Canonsburg?] and whether it’s connected with PFAS, I mean with Wolverine PFAS I don’t know. Because there are other things that cause PFAS. So, I want to make sure that people are aware of where those [tubes?] are going and I want more action by Wolverine on clean up on House Street and what is actually happening, and they literally use the court system to insulate themselves from more action. And they really-and they also need to be accountable for what's going on in Plainfield and that bothers me too. They really broke the law already and unfortunately the AG’s office, the attorney general's office didn’t see that because they were, they said, okay you can put-you can continue to dump here in Plainfield, but it can’t enter the ground water. Well, it has and that was in a court order, and they're not being held accountable for it. So, where's our court dollars and tax dollars in the court going? To help Wolverine, and that’s, that’s disturbing, and it don't look right. And we-they did this in the federal court with only the EPA, Eagle, what is now called Eagle [inaudible] EQ which is now called Eagle, and Wolverine. citizens weren’t involved in that negotiation on what was going on there. What their cleanup is supposed to be, so all those people affected on Health Street had no voice and if they did it wasn’t listened to much because it’s not enough. And you just can’t just be comfortable as Wolverine [inaudible statement] with your water you’ve gotta be darn sure there’s nothing wrong. Not just comfortable like a shoe or mattress, but one-hundred percent sure. And it was not taken into account very much in my opinion. There’s work going on and we have a great relationship and credibility with the EPA and with Eagle so that is very helpful, and we have been able to say uh-uh it needs to be- there needs to be more action here and they’ve listened to us. There was a plan they wanted to do for Health Street and it was a non-starter, it was - it was like doing nothing and so they had to go back to the drawing board and that’s where we’re at now with it. So, it’s just keeping them to the fire, and that is what I told the EPA, none of this can go away because they’ll just drop the ball and that’ll be it and people will still be impacted, and this is a forever chemical and so it’s going to be forever that we keep an eye on it. DD: Before we wrap up is there anything else that you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on today? Or anything you’d like to go back to and say more about? GM: No, I think, my outline is on my phone so I’m not texting anybody I’m just[both laughing] GM: I had my outline on my phone and I want to make sure, I do have some articles here, but I couldn’t read them on my phone. Oh yeah, the city council- oh what year was that? It was before I was even on it, so it was like 2011 or something or 2012. Before I got on it. I sent a letter to John Biles, he was a part of Wolverine, and all five city council members were on at the time signed it, trashing us and saying how they support them and they will help them and it was just- it was not helpful at all. I mean, it definitely showed their colors of not wanting to protect the citizens. Because that’s where environmental action starts and prevention starts, the city 6 �and municipalities can protect the citizens that where it starts. And if you don’t do that, and if the state who also has this duty to protect the citizens as part of their police powers that the constitution gives the state, then where are we? We’re lost. And we need more people to step up, there are some good people at Eagle at the beginning of this, they would say oh wait, I would hear, oh yes, they really see what's happening here and they agree with us and then they’d be moved to another project. So as soon as someone saw what was going on they would be moved to another project. No, no more. And thank goodness now we have the same people but, in a way, it was, you know it was only really after the whole it exploded with PFAS that I really started to see the same people. And there was one particular person who was on there, David O’Donnell who literally was helping Wolverine. They-we have a picture of Michael Young, David O’Donnell and someone from Wolverine standing by the river and their [unclear] it and there was no permit for this, I think it was right where the wastewater treatment plant used to be. You know, kind of the highest contaminated spot, no permit, no regulations they’re just [unclear] away. They have been known to even, during a rainstorm, they would spray it with water by hose, it was a solution to pollution with dilution. And he’s still in the Eagle, they moved him to Lansing. I’m like come on, I mean as a person with a disability it’s hard to get a job, and here he’s doing all these horrible things and he, yet he gets a job? Uh uh, and I justthey've gotten better, and we’ve gotten a good relationship with them, and we’ve gotten credibility and that’s why that other site that’s not related to Wolverine did so well and was cleaned up much better than would have been had we not had that relationship with Eagle. And so, it’s gotten better but I think there’s more that can be done because your gonna have these [unclear] and not just here in Rockford but also [Portsmith?] and Portage and there’s other places I think in the state and they’re going to need to be on top of it and they're going to need to inform the residents not way after the fact, so they can be doing proactive health screenings and testing and know where they’re at. So, they can either you know [inaudible] water system or bottle their water way before, I mean that’s why we really gotta keep an eye on [inaudible]. Right now, the technology isn't there to scoop it out of the ground and out of the water supply. We don’t have the technology for that yet. They are working on that, but we just don’t have it. DD: [hmm] GM: That’s all-I think that’s it. DD: [chuckles] Well thank you so much, Gail, for taking the time to share your story today. GM: Oh, you're welcome. 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0030 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mancewicz, Gail Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-09-28 Title A name given to the resource Gail Mancewicz, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Gail Mancewicz lives in Rockford, Michigan. In this interview, Mancewicz discusses the demolition of the old Wolverine tannery and the environmental and public health impact on the community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce509b1c5c2c49ae0af0b21205938602.mp4 ccaf320fa925713c765843dcd7aa0415 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/447538e620c6b8563e511917206f1c55.pdf ce650e902dc7824aa4191b82f0e902fc PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Interviewee: Tony Spaniola Date: September 24, 2021 DD: I am Dani DeVasto and today, September 24, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Tony Spanoila. Hi Tony. TS: Hi, how are you? DD: I’m doing well, how are you? TS: Doing well, thanks. DD: Awesome. Can you tell me about where you’re from, Tony, and where you currently live? TS: Sure, so I currently live in southeast Michigan. Uh, I’m an attorney here, but I also have a home in Oscoda Michigan on Van Etten Lake directly across from the former Wurtsmith Air Force Base. And, um, that is significant for your project, I think, because the former Wurtsmith Air Force Base is the first recorded PFAS [per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances] site in Michigan. It was discovered by the state of Michigan to have a PFAS problem in 2010. So, that would be- what is it, 11 plus years ago from when we’re talking now. It also, interestingly enough, happens to be the first reported U.S. [United States] military installation in the world at which PFAS, uh, was publicly reported. And so now there are 100s that have been identified all over the world. And so, we’re really in the forefront- and have been in the forefront in a lot of ways, both in Michigan, nationally, and worldwide on the PFAS issue. DD: How long have you had a house up in Oscoda? Or how long have you been going up to Oscoda? TS: Well so, um, we have had our place there for over 20 years. It was in the late 90’s. And my wife, however, has been going up there since the 1960’s. Her family had another home on the same lake decades ago, so she has been going there since she was a little girl with a little kind of period in between, and then back again in the late 90’s. So, long time. DD: Yeah, a long time. TS: Yeah. DD: Tony, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? TS: I could tell you stories that would keep us here all day. [laughs] DD: [laughs] That’s what I’m here for. TS: Yeah, well so, maybe we start at the beginning, right? Um, so, in 2016 I picked up a copy of the Detroit Free Press, still delivered in the paper form- [computer beeps] [both laughing] to my house. And on the front page- the front-page headline that day, it was in March of 2016, said “the next water crisis in Michigan may be in northern Michigan,” or something like that- I- that’s not the exact headline. But the point was we were right in the throes of the Flint Water Crisis- was in the news all the time. And here was a headline saying, “looks like there might be another one of these on the horizon in northern Michigan,” 1 �and in my first- my first thought was wow, that’s too bad. And my second thought was, really mortification because there was a picture of our lake under the headline. DD: Hmm. TS: And so, initially, we were told that, uh, there was a drinking water concern that was raised in the article. We were told that our home, which is on the east side of Van Etten Lake- um, on the opposite side of the lake from the air force base, that our home probably wasn’t impacted. That it probably hadn’t made it across the water to- to the lake water to our place. Well, about what- 6 or 7 months later we got a letter from the Health Department, saying well we’re not so sure about that. In fact, you shouldn’t drink your water. And we’re having a meeting in Oscoda to talk about all of that. So, it was- it was late October, about 2016 ,that this really hit home and here we are at a public meeting talking about- you shouldn’t be drinking your water, and here’s what it means and all of that stuff that just comes raining down upon you, um, when water is called into question and you’ve been drinking it for years, and years, and your pets and your- and I mean just, question after question, after question that goes through your mind. And for me it was particularly poignant, um, and meaningful because in the 1970’s and early 80’s my father was an elected official in the Michigan house of representatives. And at that time Michigan was going through what was then called the largest contamination crisis in US history. Caught it from a chemical called polybrominated biphenyl or PBB which got into the food chain initially in cattle feed, but then tainted, um, other livestock feed, and got into the entire food chain. All of MI was poisoned with PBB [polybrominated biphenyl]. And it just so happened that I was a young man at the time, um, my father spearheaded legislate- first the investigation into it, and then legislation that regulated- set a limit on uh, on the uh- acceptable levels in food, provided, provide for the destruction of the contaminated livestock, paid the farmers for their losses, and then set up funding for a long-term health study of the impacted people in Michigan. And that study is still going on today almost 50 years later on the 3rd generation of people who are impacted. So, it just so happened that I had taken a year off between high school and college and shadowed my father- went along with him to all the meetings, met with all of the impacted people, saw what happened to them, it was just- a horrific, horrific, horrific episode, that was- made the nation news regularly. It was the subject of Hollywood movies, it was the subject of television shows, it was the subject of books, and it was an experience that I thought would be kinda a once in a lifetime thing. DD: [sighs] TS: And I- I mean, it certainly impacted me in a very big way. You don’t meet people who are suffering like the people I’ve met and not come away very moved by what went on, how terrible it was. Um, but I think afterwards I thought that this was so bad and there was- and at the time- like there was a recall effort out against the governor- it was just- it was probably the biggest political issue in Michigan I think in my lifetime. And so, I naively thought that some lessons had been learned from that. And that I would- never in my wildest dreams imagined that I would see something like that again, let alone be, um, the subject of it. So, as I’m sitting in that meeting, and fortunately my father’s still alive- my father came with me. And it was kind of a role reversal because he went- I used to go with him and he would bounce things off me and now it was- here he and I was sitting in one of these meetings again you know, 50 years later. And so, you can only imagine the thoughts that were swirling through my mind at the time. Um, and I think, I remember saying, “You know, I’ve seen this film before, and now I’m in it.” Right? [laughs] You know? DD: Yeah, I know. TS: And so, it was- a very moving situation. And in the initial phase of it, that very first meeting, I felt mostly pretty decent. There were some initial red flags, but they were- “they” meaning the air force, which was the party that caused the problem and the state of Michigan which was supposed to be the 2 �regulator- I thought they were being reasonable. They, they came to us, and they said, “Look we haven’t tested,” for example, my home. They hadn’t tested the, the well of my home. “But what we’re going to do is we’re going to give you a point of use filter for your kitchen sink- a reverse osmosis system to takethat will- that should take the stuff out.” Now that was not- that was in my mind a short term stop gap approach but something- it was needed right away. DD: [unclear] TS: To just deal with one sink in your house, think of all the places- think of all the places that you use water in your homes and the various different ways you use them. One sink doesn’t cut the mustard. And so, it was like, ok but at least they’re trying. At least they’re doing this to try to get ahead of the problem. Unfortunately, that proved to be wrong. Um, what I learned, and this is- as we’ll, I assume, discuss- I’ve become quite a PFAS activist in the time that’s transpired since. It was not my intention to do that initially. In fact, I had a discussion with my wife, and we both said we’re not going to get- we’re not going to stick our noses too far into this- believe it or not. Because we- as part-time residents there- first of all in Michigan you know when you go up north, you go to get away from problems, right? [chuckles] DD: Ah-hmm. TS: And so, the first impedisis was, “we really don’t want to bring more into our lives up here, this is a gateway for us.” But secondly, I was very respectful- and still am- but I was very mindful of the fact that I don’t live there year-round. I mean, I’m there a lot, it’s not like a place that you- you know- it’s a- house, we’re there year-round. But this was something that I felt the community really needed to be a part of and that I didn’t really initially feel that I was enough a member of the quote unquote permanent community there to be sticking my noise in. DD: Sure. TS: So all those reasons, plus you just don’t want the hassle. But as I learned, I kept asking questions. In fact, the very first red flag that came up for me occurred on the night of the meeting itself. Um, I had done some very quick research before going to the meeting, just- online, reading stories and checking into this. The one thing I knew from PBB is that in the initial phases of a contamination problem, or in certain habit of PBB there’s a tendency to downplay the problem. There’s a tendency to- set to- look at levels and make and the tendency- to be too high, to not be safe enough. And so, we were being told at the time that the environmental protection agency had set an advisory, not a, which is not- which the still a casethere’s no regulation at the Federal level in place, but they had set an advisory of 70 parts per trillion of 2 of what I’ve now learned are more than 7000 and it’s a growing number- of the class of PFAS chemicals. PFOA [Perfluorooctanoic acid] and PFOS [Perfluorooctane sulfonic acid] were the 2 that were subject to this advisory- and so, at 70 parts per trillion. Well, research that I had found, particularly a study from Harvard University, indicated that really the number should be more like 1. And so, my first question at the public meeting was, “Okay, I’m hearing 70 from you folks, but I’m reading 1. What do you make of that?” And the initial response- this was from the state health department at the time- the initial response was [computer noises], “Well you’re getting a filter. It will take your PFOA and PFOS down below 1, so you shouldn’t be worried.” And I thought to myself, well okay, but that doesn’t give me a whole lot of assurance and- I’m only using that one source. And then the official in the health department came up to me after the meeting. And he whispered in my ear so no one else would hear and he said, where did you hear about that health study, that Harvard study? And I said, I googled it. DD: [laughs] 3 �TS: For people nowadays, they may not know what that means but I searched for it on the internet, I just searched PFAS and I found it and I read it in a newspaper article. And it became very clear not only that he hadn’t read it, but that he wasn’t even aware of it. DD: [computer chimes] TS: And so, I offered to send it. I said, “Well would you like to see it?” [Computer noises] And he said, “Yeah, I’d love to see it.” And so, I did that, and the red flag that went up for me was- wait a second, they’re telling me what’s safe, but they didn’t even read the- at least one of the really important studies. So that was like red flag number 1. They agreed, however, to review it. So I thought okay, well let’s be reasonable. Let’s review it, when they said they would get back to me, they initially said it would take them 3 months. Which yes, I know you’re raising your eyebrows and that seemed a bit long to me, but I, again- wanting to give the benefit of the doubt and be as reasonable as possible. DD: Um-hmm. TS: Well, the 3 months came, and the 3 months went. And I didn’t get a-I didn’t hear from him. So I followed up, I think probably in the 4th month and said “Hey, just checking in.” And the response was that there were other matters that were more important and they were too busy and it was not a priority. As it turns out, I don’t know that they ever reviewed it. On your side of the state, Dani, you’re aware of the wolverine PFAS contamination, well, that really hit the news- my first encounter was in October of 2016. The, to put it in context, the wolverine issue really started popping in the summer- late summer of 2017so a little less than a year later. The agency still hadn’t reviewed this Harvard study, and then when they came over to talk to the folks in Kent County about the PFAS problem there, they were still citing the 70 parts per trillion number and I thought, “Wait a second.” So I emailed them again. During that time period- it was around I believe it was Aug or Sept of 2017- and said, “What’s going on you said you were going to review this, where does it stand?” They said they would check and get back with me and I never heard a word from them. And so, if that had been the only red flag, I would still not be the activist that I am today because what proceeded to happen, in that interim period that I just talked to you about, was that the air force had told the state of Michigan that if the state of Michigan adopted a standard that was below the 70 parts per trillion number, and it was applicable-and if the standard were applicable to every in the state- not just you know, singling out the military, that the military would comply with it in Oscoda. Seemed reasonable. DD: Uh-hmm TS: Except they subsequently found out in April of 2017 that Michigan had a standard for, for groundwater, surface water- groundwater, surface water standard of 12 parts per trillion for PFOS which is quite a bit below 70, right? And I also found out that in Oscoda, which is, we are on Lake Huron- the shores of Lake Huron- but my lake is within walking distance of Lake Huron- it’s to the east of the base. To the south of the base is the Au Sable River. My lake is a part of a river system, so it connects with the Au Sable and then flows into Lake Huron. So, we have my lake, we have a river, we have national forests everywhere, and the bays. That’s pretty much Oscoda. There’s a few little businesses around town, but that’s pretty much Oscoda. There’s trees, the air force base, and water. And so, I discovered that the air force was violating, or likely violating, that 12 parts per trillion standard over miles. Miles of the Au Sable River and my lake. And so, I found this out at a meeting, um, a geologist named Bob Delaney who had, people who are studying PFAS, they should know his name because he’s a really important person in that whole process. And Bob and I subsequently became friends. He is one of my heroes in life, he’s a marvelous marvelous human being. He was managing the Oscoda project at the time and at a public meeting- before the meeting you could talk with people one on one- he had a map on the desk that showed all these red dots all along the lake and all along the river and I asked him- and I could see it was4 �it said, “Exceedances of 12 parts per trillion.” And I looked at him and I said, “Why 12, where does that come from?” And he said, “Well, we have a standard.” And I said “You’ve got to be kidding me. We have a standard, why haven’t I been hearing about this? And if we have a standard, then-” And I said, “Does it apply to everybody?” And he said, “Yes it applies to everybody.” And I said, “Well then, they have to comply with it.” Well, from there, the state of Michigan act- really did not want to enforce it. Um, the air force claimed it didn’t apply. That itDD: Hmm TS: They raised this just bologna argument. And we were in this whole- then- game. State of MI was concerned in my view- remember we’re still in the- under the regime that brought us the Flint Water Crisis in 2017. Very concerned about impacts on the businesses- and the Wolverine thing hadn’t hit yet. And, so, once it became apparent that there was this issue that could impact- that would have an impact beyond Oscoda- the state melted like hot butter. Literally. There were- there were people in the state government who were telling people in Oscoda, “That standard did not apply,”- in Oscoda. And they were just dead wrong. Now I’m a lawyer okay, and so I- after hearing this for months and months and months, finally I’m saying “Alright, there’s a way to find this out.” You know- you read the law and you, you check it out. And sure enough, and the- good regulators, Bob Delaney being the prime one, was saying “Absolutely it applies. I’ve been enforcing this for years for all sorts of other chemicals. Absolutely it applies.” Well, I looked it up, had some help from a legal researcher that I worked with and pretty simple and pretty straight forward it applies. The permanent environmental quality referred the issue to the attorney general’s office- they had been enforcing this issue for all these other chemicals for decades. And all of a sudden they didn’t know if it applied here because the air force was putting pressure on them and there was clearly pressure coming from other places. And then- ok so my suspicion meter starts going way up, as you can imagine. DS: Ah hmm. TS: And as all this is then happening- 2017 was really a pretty- it was kind of a turning point yearbecause in the summer we’d learned from Bob Delaney that there were on the base- when the base closed up in 1993 I believe- and there were fire hydrants that were left to- just turned off on the base, there was a water system that was shut off. Bob being the inquisitive guy that he is, thought to himself, “There’s still water in those water hydrants from when that base closed.”And so we can get an idea of what people who lived on the base were drinking from wells on the base were consuming at the time. DD: Hmm… TS: So he did the study…. He is- he- he’s a hero in this thing, and in early 2018 it came out that they were drinking just astronomical levels of PFAS. Just off the charts, crazy. So that hit, and then in, the summer of 2017, we had been seeing this foam on [unclear name of lake] and I- it… in your project, I hope that you can- I’m happy to share you pictures of this, because when you see it, it is shocking and it is alarming, and it just- It’s bad. And so, in the summer of 2017, Bob and his crew were out doing some sampling. They took some highschool kids - it's an incredible story. They took some highschool kids with them from a - science, research, you know- project from school, and they were there was a beach on [unclear lake name] that they were doing the testing on. And the kids said to them, “Hey, have you ever tested that foam?” and they said, “No”. And they really- the mindset was- well foam, you see foam on lakes right? DD: Mhm… 5 �TS: The mindset was [unclear speaking] as an accommodation to the kids, they tested the foam. DD: Wow… TS: The foam- the first test came back at 2,200 parts per trillion of PFOA in the foam. DD: [long sigh] TS: So- and I see you sighing, but it… it gets even worse because after they did that study, after they did that test. The Michigan Department of Health and Human Services issued a public advisory saying that that foam was safe to eat, that you could ingest it, even children! And I saw that, and again I could- I have the article from the Oscoda Press and the HHS says, “Foam is not a harm to human health.” I read that article and I just started thinking, “What is going on here… we can’t enforce our laws, we have this foam on our lake and they’re telling us it’s okay and the whole PBB thing starts to come back. Because in PBB they were telling people, “Oh, no big deal, your farmers, your cattle are dropping dead but that’s not a problem, just keep eating the meat- and you just need to feed them more food”. And they would feed them more food and the cattle would get more sick, and the farmers would get sick! Then they told the farmers it was all in their heads, that it was a psychosoma- so, I’ve been down this road before, and it turns out, some… some of these things are so- almost happen [?] for a reason. About a week after that story was in the newspaper, my wife and I are out kayaking on the lake, this was in August of 2017, beautiful day on the lake and we made an agreement we weren’t gonna be talking about PFAS that day, it was our wedding anniversary, and we’re not gonna talk PFAS. So, we’re out kayaking and our lake- this lake is a big lake, it’s about 5-6 miles long and about a mile across. So we’re out kayaking and my wife said, “Hey look, there’s a bunch of guys in moon suits and stuff over on the beach, looks like they’re doing some testing.” and this was a good- probably about a half-mile away from where we were so we have a little bit of a paddle to get there and she said, “Lets go over and see what they’re doing.” And I said, “Well you said no PFAS today” and she said “Yeah well I think we should go''. So, over we went, and of course there was foam on the beach and um… I talked to one of the people who was taking the samples and I said, “Are you- are you testing the foam?” and they said, “Yes'' and I said, “Boy, the 2,200 parts per trillion- I saw that story that- it was really alarming to me.” And he looked at me in a moment of unguarded honesty and said, “We’ve got em way higher than that.” And I said, “Well how high?” And then he said, “Well look, I just take the samples, I don’t work for the state, I'm a contractor. We just give them to the state and they do with- you know whatever they do with it when we give them this stuff.” So, here I am. I know that they have way high numbers, I don’t know what they are. I know that there’s- I’m… I’m very concerned that this advisory that they’ve given is- bad, and I’m the only one who knows this part about the other test results, and I’m trying to think, “What do I do?” On the night of, Friday night of Labor day weekend, my wife was looking at her IPhone and she said, “Hey we got an advisory from the lake association that says, now they’re saying you shouldn’t eat the foam.” And what they did was very interestingly done, they sent the advisory at 8 o’clock on a Friday night of Labor day weekend, not a time where people are paying attention to the news. In the news business- I used to be a reporter in my prior life, we call this a Friday news dump. So they had issued this press release and they said, “We had more test results, but we need to do more, but out of an abundance of caution you shouldn’t eat the foam, but here’s the thing about foam” this little brochure that foam is naturally occurring and blah blah blah. So I thought, “Okay? Now what’s going on.” The health department comes up to have a meeting with our lake association, which I couldn’t attend. I had a wedding out of town that night. They come up, and they don’t even discuss the fact that they issued- that they retracted their initial statement and issued a new one. And I’m thinkin’, “Okay… there is something really strange going on here.” Like, really strange… And so I thought, “What am I gonna do.” Well, I know this guy Delaney, right? So I’ll give him a call. So I did, I called Bob, and I didn’t know- I knew him a little, I didn’t know him super well at the time and I said, “Do you have those test results?” And he said, “Yeah I have them”. And I said, 6 �“Would you give them to me? '' And he thought, from when he paused and he said, “You’re a taxpayer, you paid for these so I’ll give them to you.” So he sent me, ugh, hundreds and hundreds- Dani, I mean probably two feet- when I printed them all there was probably two feet of documents. And so, imagine, I know virtually nothing about science. DD: [Dani laughs] TS: I’m sitting in my office one night, and I have these things stacked up and I’m thinking, “Oh… I gotta go through these…” So I started fumbling through them and, um… the numbers, and I- I didn’t know if I knew how to read them correctly or- I thought I did, but I didn’t know for sure. The numbers that are popping off the pages are really alarming. Like, in the tens of thousands of parts per trillion. So, I’m thinkin I gotta make sure I get this right, exactly right. So I- I summarize- and there’s only, I don’t know maybe ten, or six, or eight, or half a dozen samples and there was a lot of junk that goes around the stuff that goes around it. So I wrote the numbers down, and I called Bob back up. I was very mindful that I did not want to get Bob in troubleDD: Mhm… TS: So I knew that the state was really really sensitive about Oscoda because of the whole Flint mess, so I said, “Look, I’m not gonna ask you to send me test results and say “Hey Tony these are the numbers” or anything, I just- I wanna tell you what I found, and I want you just to verify that I’m right or tell me that I’m wrong.” So I read him the numbers and he said, “Yeah you’re right.” And I said, “Well, those are really big numbers…” 48,000 parts per trillion, and… um… he said to me- if you were still working for the state I wouldn’t say this now but I can because he’s not working there, he said, “Yeah, it’s really scary.” And I said, “What were they thinking?” He said, “I don’t know what they’re thinking.” So my- the red- the red flags are popping up everywhere for me at this point, and I’m thinking to myself, “Okay, now what? What am I gonna do? He’s giving me this information, he’s probably going to get in trouble for giving me this information. If I take this to my neighbors, they’re gonna go, “Well who are you?” right?”. Which is what happened! They said, “Well where did you get these? And why isn’t- why are we hearing about this from you and not the health department?” And I’m saying, “Well that’s the question we need to ask here folks. This is going on right under our nose, and they’re not sharing the information with us. Right?” So… as the time goes- the timeline moves forward- this was early September when I talked- had this discussion with Bob in 2017. I learned that there were more results coming. DD: Hm… TS: And so, I said to Bob, “Will you give me the new ones when they come in?” and he said, “Well I’m not allowed to do that.” I had a hunch he was not gonna- “You need to talk to the Health Department to try to get them.” So, I did find out that they got the results back in late September, and I started emailing the Health Department- state health department, asking for them. No response… In late October of 2017, big sticky piles of foam came right up over our seawall and plopped in our backyard. Very clearly PFAS foam. My son took pictures, Bob Delaney advised me to report it to their environmental emergency hotline, which I did and it was a complete waste of time, because they didn’t- they basically told me don’t worry it’ll go away, and I said, “Well it’s gonna go into the groundwater” which we drink- um… and still no test results. I asked for the test results again, a fourth time, on the day of that and I said, “Look, this is not an academic exercise here, this is going on in my backyard right now.” Nothing. Now, fast forwardrewind back just a couple of weeks to mid October of 2017. Bob Delaney and I had begun a dialogue. He calls me one night, and he said, “You probably don’t know this but I wrote a report in 2012, a comprehensive report about Oscoda and all of Michigan, and nothing really happened with it, and I’m going on the radio tomorrow to make it public.” And I remember 7 �thinking- well the first thing I said to him was, I said, “Are you scared? Because I would be if I were in your shoes, and I just wanna thank you for sticking up for me and my family when nobody else seemedseems to care much.” So he went on the radio- a radio program in Lansing, Michigan, uh… it was Wolverine- was hitting at that point, and he disclosed that he had authored a ninety-some page report with a toxicologist from Colorado titled, “Michigan’s Contaminant Reduced Health Crisis”, and he predicted everything that has happened in Michigan and across the country on PFAS. He was a visionary all the way back in 2012, and he had documented scientifically all sorts of things. He had taken it to the director of the Department of Environmental Quality, the same director who had presided over the Flint mess. Flint hadn’t happened yet, and it basically got thrown in a pile and nothing happened. There were- there were statements by him that people in Oscoda likely had immensely high levels of PFAS in their blood, and no action was taken to find them or to help them in any way. Still haven’t to this day. When Bob’s report hits the governor’s office, Michigan goes into a panic, because now they’re potentially sitting on another water crisis cover up, and Bob’s life got really miserable, really fast. They began monitoring his phone calls, his emails, his texts, um… people would show up in his office and download everything from his phone. He was forbidden from- he was the guy who was always giving presentations at our meetings. He was forbidden from doing that, and essentially he was frozen out. They couldn’t fire him. DD: Mhm... TS: Because it would have been too politically damaging, and the state and the governor’s office went into um- they went into crisis mode. There were reports out at the time, they in respon- Bob had recommended that the state set up a multi-agency task force and do all these things, just recommendation after recommendation, but all of a sudden, within a matter of weeks, they adopted a whole bunch of his recommendations. Just… all of a sudden. But they were telling us that they couldn’t do it before then because they didn’t have authority to. DD: [Dani chuckles] TS: So nothing happened to gi- to change to give them authority. Oscoda became another Flint for them, because it was the place that brought to the fore the fact that they knew about this crisis and they didn’t act on it. So, they’re whole move in Oscoda was to try to- to sweep Oscoda under the rug. This is all going on, okay? The foam, and this, and um… In early November I really had really reached a breaking point, and so I wrote a letter to the Health Department, and I said to them, “Look, the director of your department was just arraigned in court today, on criminal charges in The Flint Water Crisis. That came because you had public health information that you guys didn’t disclose upon - didn’t disclose or or act upon. That’s happening here, now. You have test results that impact me and you’re not sharing them. I don’t think it’s you personally, I think it’s your bosses, but… remember what’s happening up in Flint. It’s every man and woman for themselves and if you’re covering this up and you’re covering up a health problem, I wouldn’t wanna be in your shoes.” DD: Mhm… TS: Bob Delaney jumps in, because I had copied him on the email, and he says, “I’m not going to be- I’m not going to have any part of this.” He sent me the test results, they came back at over 110,000 parts per trillion. DD: Wow! TS: So we’re in this kind of denial, cover up mode that’s going on there, and on top of all of it the air force is doing nothing to try to clean any of this whole mess up. We have an advisory on 9 miles of the Au Sable River that says don’t eat a single fish, because they are some of the most contaminated fish in 8 �the world. We have this foam in our backyard, we have- I mean it’s… it’s really getting bad. And so, I decided to write the governor’s office, and I asked them to come- there was a meeting in early December of 2017, and I asked them to come to the meeting, because I said this is a big problem. I outlined the issue with this- it’s called Rule 57. With that issue, with the fact that we’re having foam, the fact that we’re having all these problems and the state wasn’t doing anything about it. Well sure enough the governor’s office came. They were- they were worried. Dani, on the day that they came, it was early December of 2017, my wife and I were in Oscoda for that and she woke up before I did and she said, “Hey, it snowed last night.” I remember thinking, “I didn’t hear that it was supposed to snow.” So I looked out and said, “I don’t think that’s snow…” So I walked down to the water’s edge, and its- it is the worst looking PFAS foam, to that point in time, that I had ever seen and it was everywhere. It was for miles up and down the lake. I started taking pictures, and I remember thinking to myself, “Okay, what am I gonna do with these?” I really haven’t engaged with the community, but this has gotten to the point where I can’t just pretend and sit back and not do something. So, I took it upon myself to send the pictures to some news reporters. The Detroit Free Press and Garrett Ellison, Keith [?] at the Detroit Free Press and Garrett Ellison from MLive were two of the reporters. They saw those pictures- they were so horrible. Garrett and Keith called me within minutes. Literally within minutes, they clearly dropped whatever they were doing and said, “What’s going on?” So I’m in a position of thinking, “Okay, what am I gonna do?” I was asked to go- to meet with some other people in Oscoda, who are getting concerned. So, I went to this meeting, and I said, okay, everybody is starting to complain. They're seeing the phone. The word about the phone is starting to get out. Bob had allowed me to get the word out to people in a way that they would understand it and could believe that it was accurate. He and I basically wrote him an email and said, I think these are the numbers. I understand the state is not doing anything. Can you verify and he basically just said “yes” to everything so I could show people that, yes, this wasn't just me making this stuff up. So, I went to this meeting and there were, I don't know, a dozen or so people, some businesspeople, some folks who lived in the community. And I said, look, I've got these pictures. You guys have seen the phone today, and they said, oh, yeah, it's terrible, it's awful. I said, look, I don't want to be the out-of-town crusader here, so I want to know. I'm happy to share these, I'm happy to move forward, but I'm not going to do it by myself. And so, we went around the room and it wasn't just about the pictures as well. Are we going to get together? Are we going to do something as a group? And, it was a very poignant discussion that I really will never forget, because one by one by one, they all said, in varying forms, “we've set back and trusted our government for now seven years and look what it's gotten us. Look around, it's visible, you can't miss it. So, that hasn't worked. So, yeah, we're with you. We're in this together.” And so, I talked to the reporters. They ran stories, but more importantly, a group called Need Our Water was formed that day, at that meeting. And, it has now become the first, I don't want to say the first, but it's certainly the most organized and powerful PFAS group in Michigan. And, probably one of the most organized and powerful in the whole country. We're recognized from all over the place. It happened that day. That night, the state officials flew in from Lansing and they flew, and they had to land — the flight path was right over the lake during the day so they could see the foam from the air, that's how bad it was. So, I stood up at the meeting and basically addressed the representative from the governor's office in a very reasonable way and just said, “look, when this all came down, I really thought you guys were doing a good job. But, over the course of the last year plus, I've come to see that that's not the case. To understand that we have this foam that's everywhere, that is not safe. You'll get the pictures, you saw it this afternoon, and I find out that the state is doing nothing about it. I find out that the state has regulations on the books that it's not even enforcing.” And, this just keeps going on and on and on and on. And it was a very interesting thing to watch the reaction of the governor's office representative because you could see her face just dropped. It was probably about a five-minute presentation that I made, and she looked at me very sincerely and said, “you have raised very serious concerns.” So, from there, this group, Need Our Water was hatched, and we started to become quite active. 9 �Right around that time in December, I happened to meet a legislator introduced through a mutual friend. Her name is Winnie Brinks. Name might ring a bell with you, from the Grand Rapids area. She was a state representative at the time, and as of this recording, she's a state Senator and met with Winnie and met with my father, because my father had done the legislation on PBB, and we talked to her about legislation on PFAS and there were some others involved in the meeting as well. From that meeting, the first PFAS legislation in Michigan was introduced by then Representative Brinks to set a drinking water standard for PFOA and PFOS. The legislation got nowhere in the legislature at the time, but it was the start. It was the start of a process that has made PFAS a pretty big statewide issue today, politically and otherwise. And it's really something for me to have seen that happen, because I remember thinking, “I'm in this little, tiny town of Oscoda. We have no news media. Nobody really, really cares as much. How are we going to get this out? Because we can't do this by ourselves.” And, of course, Wolverine remains a very big issue in the Grand Rapids area. So, there's a kinship between our two communities, which you can understand. Because we were the first, Wolverine was the second, and they helped to really pop the issue on the stage with Bob Delaney and the rest. We also happen to have in Oscoda, a congressman by the name of Dan Kildee, who represents Flint. We're in the same district as Flint. I don't think that's going to last much longer than the reapportionment, but he knows all about water crises, and he became an incredible ally for us in the United States Congress. And he came up and he brainstormed with us. We had a brainstorming session in early 2018, and I remember I sat next to him, and I said, “we've got to do something there. I know that there are other communities like ours around the country. They're coming, right?” “We didn't know at the time because we didn't have the testing. “They're coming and we've got to join together because taking on the Pentagon, the armed forces is a pretty hard thing to do, and they don't want to work with us.” So, he said “yeah, it's tough because people don't like to make a big deal out of this issue sometimes because it creates negative publicity,” and yes, it does. There are people in my community who are not happy with me and others in our group because we're a tourism town, right? And, so negative publicity about the water and the fish and the deer, which there's advisories for all of those, is not a good thing for tourism. So, he left, and things went on. As it turns out, as a result of that meeting, he credits that meeting with giving him the idea to form what is now known as the Bipartisan Congressional PFAS Taskforce, a group of members of Congress who come together solely around the PFAS issue. I believe, as of today, that there are somewhere in the 80 to 90 range, 80 to 90 members of Congress, who are a part of this PFAS coalition. Which is incredibly cool when you think it all started in little old Oscoda, and now we have 90 members of Congress. I went up to Washington, D. C. in the fall of 2018 to a hearing that Senator Peters convened, Gary Peters. And, I know my way around Washington a little, because I was involved in politics with my father, and met with some members of Congress and their staffs to talk about our plate in Oscoda. And it was very interesting, most people hadn't heard of PFAS, didn't know if they had, they just heard very very little about it. So, it became apparent to me, “okay, we've got to do some education here.” I connected with the campaign of Governor Gretchen Whitmer. She wasn't the governor then, she was a state senator, a former state senator. Actually, this was earlier in the year. And I said, “hey, you really want to get to know about this issue.” So, she came to Oscoda, and she met with us. We were the first ones to tell her about PFAS. And it was a meeting where she just sat and listened, to take it all in because she didn't know about it. At the same time, somebody introduced me to a woman who was running for Attorney General. Her name is Dana Nessel, and she is now our Attorney General. And, Attorney General Nessel at the time said, “hey, you got a lot of knowledge about this. Do you mind if I pick your brain?” then I said, “absolutely.” And so, during her campaign, I advised her and worked with her in helping to kind of to formulate her positions on PFAS. It became one of her probably top three issues in her election campaign for Attorney General. And, she won. And, I can tell you an incredible story about that in a minute. But, my notion of what I had learned from PBB was that until it became a political issue, until it got moved, until the 10 �bureaucrats were forced by the political forces to take action, that nothing happened with that. And, I saw that going on here as well. So, I was like, “we’ve got to educate politicians, we’ve got to educate elected officials, we’ve got to educate candidates in this issue. I think it’s going to be a big one.” And it turns out, it was a big one, it has been a big one. So, the story about the Attorney General, so she gets elected, of course. Her first day in office she calls me, and she says, “get up here, we're going to talk about PFAS.” And, up I go to Lansing. She was so new, that her staff was just getting put in place. I show up at the building, and they won’t let me in. The security guard says, “who are you here to see?” and I said, “well I am here to see the Attorney General.” And they said, “well who in the Attorney General’s office do you have an appointment with?” And I said, “well I have an appointment with the Attorney General.” And they said “yeah, but who in the Attorney General’s office do you have an appointment with?” and I said, “the Attorney General Dana Nessel.” “Well, who is the staff person that set the appointment up?” I said “there wasn’t a staff person, it was the Attorney General. And, I said let me tell you, I can imagine you have all sort of people wandering in and out of the street here that would like to talk to the attorney general about all sorts of grievances they have. I am not crazy, I’m not a whacko, I really do have an appointment with the Attorney General. Would you please just call somebody up there? I don’t know who to tell you to call, other than the Attorney General, but call somebody in her office. And, they can verify that I’m for real.” So, sure enough, he looked at me and said, “yeah, I’ll be darn, you’re right” [chuckles]. So up I go! And we talked about different legal things that we could do. My legal background has been helpful, and I give her all the credit in the world that she followed through on the promises she made. The main one being that she’s going to sue the chemical manufacturers. 3M and others, and that was done, that’s going on, that’s in process today. People see this someday they’re going to know how it turned out. That was a real tangible result of being organized, and being engaged, and being involved, and that felt good. As you can imagine. It doesn’t feel good that my community still 12 years later, 11 years later doesn’t have a clean-up plan in place, it doesn’t feel good when people in my community who feel a sense of alienation, who feel that they’ve been abandoned by their government, who feel there’s no hope, who are suffering from various malities which we can’t even get confirmed, they won’t even be tested to see if they connected to…. It’s such a non validating, that’s a terrible word, but a non validating process to go through. To have bureaucrats continuously tell you “It’s no big deal, not a problem” and you know there is. And, it t continues to play out, all across the United States. In the course of my work, I continued getting involved with a group called the National PFAS Contamination Coalition. Which is a coalition of community groups, like ours in Oscoda, now in 40 communities and 17 states across the country. Our experiences are very, very, very similar. Their differences from community to community, you could in many many ways almost change the names and change the locations and its very similar stuff that’s going on. We’ve developed a bond, with people who have gone through this. It’s almost a brother and sisterhood kind of thing. I thought when I was involved with PBB that I was really with it, into it. I mean I was as close as you could get to what was going on. It’s not the same as when it happens to you. When it happens to you, it never goes away. It’s always there. And, particularly I see this in moms. A sense of guilt that they have, unintentionally, poisoned their children. Of course, it’s not their fault, they didn’t know. But it’s something they live with. I’ve talked to moms in particular with children who have been born with serious developmental issues and birth defects, it's just gut wrenching. And sadly, the bureaucrats who are largely in charge of this response, don’t understand that human side. I can see you do because I can see you getting upset just talking to me, but they don’t get it! For them, it’s like a big science experiment, and sadly the guinea pigs are all of us. With PFAS, it isn’t just people in Oscoda, or people in Kent County, or people in these little dots you keep seeing popping up across the map. PFAS is so prevalent that it’s everybody. Some people have different reactions than others, there are lower levels in certain places than others, but the research continues to show that low levels, quoteunquote “low levels” are bad, in lots of different ways. And we know they are bad for, particularly harmful for children, fetuses, pregnant women, people with immunological problems, older people. We’re 11 �going to learn more as we go forward, but none of it’s good. I mean, there’s nothing good that comes from any of this. And, as I look back 50 years ago to where I was with PFAS, and where I am today and Dani there have been so many very poignant and moving things that have happened to me. I haven’t even touched on a number of them, but in the process of this, I got to meet the researchers who are doing the PBB study now. We got together in Lansing, there was a PBB/PFAS gathering there. And, we got together, and they said, “hey we should talk.” My dad came, and these researchers are from Emory University in Atlanta, the state of Michigan, by the way, dropped the study in the 1990s. Emory University, for whatever reason, in Atlanta, jumped in and got funding and is continuing it. But, we started a conversation we thought would be maybe a half an hour. As we talked, I think it went for 8 hours, by the time we got done. We were like “well let’s go to dinner.” We went to dinner, and we just kept talking and talking and the stories that they told me about what they’re still seeing today, just tears your heart out. And what I know when I see that, and when I’ve seen what I’ve seen coming down with PFAS, I know that’s what’s going to be in the future for countless untold people. That is just, that’s hard to live with. And, the fact that we have no regulations at the federal level, none, zero, today? The fact that even at the federal level, we are only looking at one or two, in a class of thousands? The fact that the people who told us that PFOA and PFOS were safe are now saying “oh don’t worry, yeah, those are problematic — they still won’t acknowledge them — but all these other 7000 things are fine, because they’re different. Well, no. The good scientists are telling us otherwise. In any event, good research tells you that if you’re really following the science, that’s kind of a term people like to use. The best way to protect public health is to not have this stuff in the environment in the first place. Instead of putting it in the environment, randomly poisoning people, and then going back and trying to do the detective work after the damage is done. So, that was the lesson for me from PBB. Another interesting aside, I went off to college in the PBB thing. I went to Harvard, and I took a class on the science of public policy, on public policy of carcinogenic stuff, and my professors were like “you were involved with this world seminal thing that was going on with PBB? You know these people?” and I was like “yeah I know them.” From the class, I learned about the history of carcinogenic chemicals. There’s bad stuff in a lot of different ways. You’ve got lead out there that affects developmental issues, we’ve just got a cocktails of bad things in our environment. But, one of the things I learned was to study this, to study the impacts, one of the helpful things in epidemiology is to study where the cancers pop up. And then in the detective work go back and say, “oh geez we’ve got a cluster here of a particular type of cancer.” So, my father, at my suggestion, introduced legislation in the 1980s, which was signed into law in 1984, creating the Michigan cancer registry. So, when people die of cancers, without reviewing their private information, the information is kept in a registry. So, we have that. I don’t know that it's being used in the way it should be, for PFAS or really for anything else. But, I have a different view from a lot of people because of what I’ve seen and what I’ve been through. My view of the future, given where we are now, it’s not a particularly bright one. I am sorry to say that, but it’s a reality. And, it’s something that makes the work that I do, in one sense it motivates me in a big way, but in another way, it makes me very sad that it’s such an uphill battle. And it also motivates, I have a grandson now, he’s a year old and I have another one on the way, it’s for them. For us, in a way, it’s too late, but to bring people into the world and know that things like this are out there and we are not taking care of them is just hard to deal with. I suspect we have probably talked longer than you might’ve guessed we would have, or there's certainly more I could share with you. DD: Well, you actually started anticipating one of my questions, which was about ‘what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination going forward?’ I don’t know if you want to say any more about that or not. TS: My concerns moving forward is that they’re creating new PFAS’s at such a rapid rate. New types of PFAS, given the current structure that there’s no way we can keep up. So, if we don’t regulate them as a class, if we don’t ban them, except for the most essential uses, and then require that they prove safety before they can be used in things like cosmetics, and food packaging, and dental floss, and all sorts of 12 �crazy things. If we don’t do that, we're in a bad, bad, bad place. And so, that’s the focus of, aside from getting wordsmith air force base cleaned up, and getting my lake cleaned up, we’ve had some success. My wife says I ruin every party whenever anyone talks to me, but we have had some success. But, the future right now is not particularly bright, without change. The bright part in this —. You live a total downer, the bright side in this is I can’t tell you how many incredibly amazing, compassionate people that I have met across the country who are just as passionate and active and involved as I am. They, as I think I may have alluded to before, we are like blood brothers and sisters. Because we lived this experience and were committed to do this and the stories they have to tell are just very moving and very touching. Many of them, I know in my case, I’ve been in three film documentaries, including one that was done by a Pulitzer Prize winner. The woman who broke the jerry Sandusky sex abuse scandal at Penn State came to Oscoda and did a whole production up there. The stories, because like you, she said, “these stories are important, and we have to get them out” and so I think part of the reason I think what you’re doing is so important is we do need to get these stories out. Because they have a very personal side, a very personal impact. 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0028 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spaniola, Tony Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-09-24 Title A name given to the resource Tony Spaniola, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Tony Spaniola resides in southeast Michigan, but maintains a second home in Oscoda, Michigan near the former Wurtsmith Air Force Base. The base was first recorded to have PFAS contamination in 2010, though Tony did not learn of it until reading about it in the newspaper in 2016. In this interview Spaniola discusses the impact that PFAS has had on his and his family's lives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c9d2ce8837367e77bb5ff56c1a419662.mp4 2790c3b82ab7b06d806de46046085c0d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/220e95d4388f6039be518dab0ff141a3.pdf d841667a5fc7b90fc81a272ce9646cb0 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Graham Peasley Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: September 2nd, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and today, September 2nd, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Dr. Graham Peasley. Hi Dr. Graham. GP: [chuckles] Hi Dani. I- I’m Graham Peasley. I’m a professor at the University of Notre Dame, and I am now spending a g-good deal of my life studying PFAS. So, the story I’d like to tell is just, how did I get into this. I was a nuclear physicist of all things, and I have, or I, trained as a nuclear chemist, and I began studying environmental issues back in the 2000s—early 2000s—and it revolved around a lake. I didn’t know anything about lakes, but I needed to get tenure, and I decided I was gonna study the local lake. But in that process I met someone looking at brominated flame retardants, and we studied brominated flame retardants with our technique. And, I met a woman who's probably the leading PFAS scientist in the country at a conference, and she said, “That’s great work on the brominated flame retardants, can you do that with fluorine?” And I laughed and said, “Nobody can do that with fluorine.” It’s not got any-any ways to detect fluorine that are quick and easy. I had a quick and easy way to detect bromine, and I thought about it for a couple weeks after the conference, and there is an old technique that could detect fluorine quickly, but, gee, it wouldn’t really work, would it? And so I-I called the woman back up—this was Jennifer Field—the-the- one of the leading PFAS experts in the world, and I said, “can you send me something that’s fluorinated? I would like to see if I can see it,” and she knew my technique, and she—her grad-her grad student sent a piece of a pair of pants to me, and I stuck it in the beam, and in less than an hour we had the signal that was predicted to be there, and it was really strong. It was like—wow, that was easy. We had no idea whether it was all material that had to do with this or just this one pair of pants, so I had to get a t-shirt off a student [chuckles] Said I assume a t-shirt isn’t fluorinated, stuck it in the beam, and there was not a signal, and it was like, okay, so we see fluorine and we can prove it. And it took, oh 2 or 3 years from that point to get it published and cause we saw more fluorine than there was PFAS, and the world’s leading expert tells you, “that’s too much fluorine” and we-we only measure this much. But the techniques are different—ours measures all fluorine. And so, it took us a couple years to understand that and to our credit, the leading scientist understood what we were seeing, and published several papers at that point saying, “look [chuckles] we don’t see most the fluorine that we measure, most standard measurements we’ve talked about, all publishments to date have been on less than 1% of all the fluorine that’s out there, and so that’s the scary news. These PFAS are everywhere and we aren’t looking at most of them. We’re looking at the ones that are recognizable, that we know have health concerns, that there's a whole bunch that are being made, 1 �and have been modified in their environment that, sort of, they’re starting to decay, but they don’t decay very rapidly, or not at all when they reach the base unit, and so these final products are-are always measurable, but there’s a lot of what we call precursors that turn into these final products, and that’s been my scientific career as a sort of change from that moment in 2013/2014 to now, where a good fraction of my research group and effort is in PFAS. We still do lead and brominator flame retardants, and a few other things, but the funding and the interest is really gone into PFAS. And the reason is that PFAS is used so widely. It’s used in every product that is a [unclear] that came out recently, and Europe has showed 200 different uses of PFAS in our society from clothing to papers to flame retardants that we use in the airports and things like that—everything that people know about, then dozens of other uses— fluorinated ski wax. The Olympic Committee has contacted us to see if we can tell fluorinated ski wax, which is now banned, from non-fluorinated because they need something they can test for the-the doping in the Olympics. Well, okay, and it turned out not to be my technique because I could not put it up on a hill but— DD: [laughs] GP: They found a way that they can measure that. And so that was fun, I mean, it-it was a project that walks in the door, we answer a question and we can help somebody measure quicker. What has really made an impact is the-the human impact of what our stories have done, and the fact that we can change things, as scientists. Which, you know, scientists don't do anything except study things, you need politicians, you need lawyers, you need somebody else to change something, but we can actually make a difference. And it began after this discovery that I can make rapid measures of fluorine, I was hired away to Notre Dame, where I was asked to do the applied physics program here, and we had an accelerator that I could devote to this type of study, and they allowed me a lot of resources this time doing it, and we ended up looking at all sorts of products— food packaging was the first one we did before I came— but then we looked at textiles for occupational exposure for firefighters, and we looked at most recently cosmetics, and we’re still looking at dozens of others things that we’ll eventually get published, and everywhere we look we see fluorine. And so, the next question is, is that fluorine PFAS? Cause there are some natural forms of fluoride, but we don’t see a lot of that, except in rocks. So, unless there’s rocks in the product, there’s unlikely to be, you know, organic fluoride. You know, toothpaste, okay, but very few other things have organic fluoride in them. And so, the inorganic fluorines are all man-made, they’re all PFAS, all the ones of concern, and they, as a family, there’s you know, 4,000, 5,000 of these things that are known, probably more, based on our studies there’s even more that are unknown, and these chemical compounds persist forever. 2 �Then-so what we started looking for were ways we could get rid of them out of the products, and bringing attention to them as a scientist is one way we can do that. So we published a study on food wrappers, originally, and it was brought by a student. We were measuring these pants, we were measuring samples from soils, we were measuring water samples, and suddenly a student says, “can I test the food wrapper that I’m eating off?” “Sure.” And it had fluorine in it. And so, then we commissioned a study and a bunch of students all over the country went and got, from 7 different states, a whole bunch of food wrappers, and we could do them rapidly, we were measured 300, 400, 500 of them, and we found that about 30-40% were fluorinated. And we published that, and we were completely unaware how big a story that would be— because the media got a hold of it— and it was just the right time that the-the news story broke, and people were looking for a feel-good story or an alarm story, and ‘oh my god I’ll never eat a hamburger again.’ Well, the hamburger doesn’t spend much time in the wrapper, as people were quick to point out, and we even said it in the paper right, I’m not worried about the hamburger, I’m worried about where did the wrapper go after you eat the hamburger: It goes in the landfill. These are forever chemicals, and in about 60 days they all wash out a landfill and they’re back in the drinking water, and you and I, and our children drink- that’s not good, okay, and so we made that story, they didn’t read the second part of that paper, they just read ‘oh my god it's in every major fast food chain,’ and then the remarkable thing happened. A- the story was popular, er, okay, and I-I have wonderful scientific publications of lots of people haven’t read, and then this one paper everybody’s read. And it’s like, okay, it wasn’t even that big a study. Some students read some papers and we got a measurement and- but it was the impact, it was in what people ate, could be in what people ate, more importantly what everybody was gonna be drinking, and so I kept trying to make that point. But then- oh a few months later I got invited to give a talk to the packaging industry, and I thought oh my god they’re gonna throw darts at me. No! They were delighted by my paper. Come tell us about this technique and how did you find that out and-and why were they so excited? Well, it turns out for almost all applications, the companies could switch, and when they were contacted by a Senator who out of Illinois that wrote them a letter saying, “I understand from the Washington Post you have this in your packaging, but your policy for removing it, how soon will it be done?” When a sitting U.S. Senator writes that to a CEO, you know, they had a meeting somewhere, and the CEO said, “Make this go away; we sell hamburgers, we sell tacos, I don't want anything.” And they-they change packaging three times a year anyway. It’s Christmas season, so they just switched, and they switched away from it based on a scientific study, and the fear of it, of-of regulation coming down the pike, or worse yet, lawyers. Litigation is a-a big tool in this country to force companies to do the- to do what they should be doing, and most companies do it long before the litigation stage. They say, “whoops, this isn't good,” and they didn't know it was there; they just were told it was a better packaging material, and it is, its better to keep grease off, but they could go back to the old stuff; they could go back to double wrapper, they could use middle foil, so they switched and everybody did it without a law being changed 3 �for the next two years. Laws have now started to change, based on the paper, but, I-it was remarkable that a paper caused all the big named brand industries you know of to switch without me having to go to boardroom to boardroom to come persuade them to do that. They just said “Nah, brand impression is important, and we don’t want to be associated with this chemical, it-it isn’t necessary for what we need to sell our product, it’s gone.” And that was what we call a-a, you know, a low-cost effort to change an industry. And I was amazed cause I was not aiming for anything so grand other than, we found an observation that nobody had seen before, let’s see what we can do with it. And the next story comes, related to that, is- I got a- based on the publicity from that, we got- I got a very nice email from a spouse of a firefighter. And Diane Carter had written to, at that point, 6,000 different emails to various government officials, to various manufacturers, to various people, her husband had cancer. And she knows she can never prove where the cancer came from, but she found the suspicion that, you know, PFAS is a chemical that causes cancer, and firefighters are very well aware of it cause their firefighting foam is made out of it, and now the whole country switched away from that type of firefighting foam, which is a huge progress being made, but she said, I think the gear’s made out of it too. And she got some hints from what she read online, but she couldn’t prove it, and nobody would listen to her, and say, “nah nah nah, go away, it’s all safe.” And she wrote to me, and a heartfelt letter; she talked about her husband’s cancer, he survived, and- but he’s no longer able to work, and he’s too young to retire, so she’s pissed, and-and wrote it in a very eloquent way. And I said, okay, I’m at an institution where I’m supposed to work with the public. I can do that. Can you send me a sample of the gear? And they did, a couple swatches of gear, and it was through the roof in fluorine. It was very high and fluorinated. And I said okay, is all gear like this? Or is it just yours? Does it come off? Or does it just stay on the gear forever? And does it get into a firefighter if it does come off? I kinda answered the third one— that’s an exposure science question— but I can answer the first two. And we got a group of volunteers in the fire services to send me samples of used turned-out gear or new, sometimes they had new gear, and it’s very expensive, the- so they couldn’t get a lot of samples, but I got 30 or 40 samples, and the students loved it. They ran with it. We discovered that it was all required by law to have the same type of treatments, which were all fluorated, and heavily so. And, it came off, our students have found garment-to-hand transfer— that’s not good. They were wearing gloves, they were after- we measured the glove before and after, and we could reproduce them. We could get rub-off. You could rub it off. It wasn’t easy to get off, it wasn’t; it was still water-proof after we did this, but it was a- added to the garment to be waterproof. And we found it everywhere, and nobody had recorded this before, and the companies all said it was safe, safe, safe, but they’re just- they don’t have a chemist on staff, they just, sew the textiles from the textile manufacturer who said it was safe, safe, safe, we don’t have a chemist, they just buy the chemicals and use it. And the chemical manufacturer says it’s safe, safe, safe, and here’s the [unclear] rap sheet saying it’s safe, safe, safe, and I said, oh wait a 4 �second, I know these companies. I know they’ve been using that [unclear] rap sheet for years— that’s not what is actually true. I mean, they’ve moved their workers out of the assembly line back in the 1960s; they know it isn’t safe, and so took a couple years to publish that because it was so out of the area of the- that anybody had published before, that we weren’t convinced that anybody would believe us. So we did a lot of tests to confirm it, and I had a independence done in Australia and tested it and said, okay, we get the same answer, and so I published it in July of 2020, and the students who did it did a great job, we-we got the results and that one didn’t go as viral as food packaging, for a couple reasons. One is, there’s only one million people who are firefighters, there’s 1.2 million in this country, but there are 300 million people that eat fast food, so there's different audience. It was occupational exposure, so ‘I’m not a firefighter I don’t care.’ But, it was also a- behind a firewall, so you had to pay to get the journal article. So it was like, okay, I didn't have $2,000 to spare to make it public access, and then, I didn’t think it was that important, but the firefighters did cause they felt like they’d been lied to. DD: Hmm. GP: And they had been. Not by anybody who's making money off of it except for the manufacturer, the gear you know. It’s all safe because I was told it was safe. Well, there’s a lot of evidence that PFAS aren’t safe, and there’s evidence now that it’s on the gear and comes off. And they couldn’t really squirm out that it was on the gear cause they kinda knew it was on the gear, but, well, the amount that comes off is very small. I said, well, it’s 10 times higher than what’s in your blood, and you wear the gear every day; is that a possible source in addition to what-what could elevate a firefighter’s blood level? And in that process, I started a series of talks, and I talked to firefighters and chiefs and all the people that made decisions and being hit with a-a triple F- the-the firefighting foam the year before, so they were pretty keenly aware of PFAS on the firefightng front, and nobody wanted to believe it was in their gear because they were told it wasn’t, and it was safe, safe, safe. Well now it is but it’s the safe form. Okay, and so I said, well, so we looked at the gear, you wear-you wear the suit for 10 years before it’s out of service, and it all became safe in 2016 by switching to the short-chain PFAS right? I claim that that’s no safer, but even that you know, half your guys are still wearing gear that has got the old stuff on it. Well, it’s only trace amounts even if it wasn’t as safe, and so they're just back paddling. And it was just me giving talks, but the firefighters heard it, loud and clear, and this woman who’d been on social media for a year complaining, that, you know, nobody’s listening to her, was really grateful. We published this paper, and it was just in the right time because companies were starting to get mad that anybody would question them. And I-it was confirmed in science-peer-reviewed science paper, and we got some publicity. Notre Dame decided to make a movie of it, and put it on the half-time show. Which is just, you know, a three minute infomercial for the University. But they thought it was pretty neat, and they didn’t. Food packaging was a little controversial because there’s some big companies out there 5 �that might not like their name associated with that, but this one- these are just textile manufacturers. They didn’t know any of those names, so they-they didn’t mention any names in the commercial, which was good, but they showed me fighting to protect the brave. Oh, what I was doing was trying to make the gear safe for them, and it was a-it was a-very [phew]- they did a professional job and they made me look good, which is hard to do. And they-they did this commercial at halftime, and it got 7 million viewers in one halftime show- it was a big game. And it got the award for the most-watched commercial that year, and so it ran again the next year— they always take one from the year before that was best— and so its been seen by millions of people, and it shows a very nice scene of the staff in the fire department. They even, they asked them to run the trucks out for them can you-can you run the truck out of the- and I was like, you did what [laughs] always asked, they did, and-and they had the rookies run the truck out to show how it works, and it was like, oh my god, I didn’t in-intend them to do that, but we-I been working South Bend fire department; they-they’d help me get the message out, and they were happy to be on that commercial. And it-it-it-it resonated with— I’ve got 500 Facebook friends that, you know, I haven’t met any of them because they’re all firefighters. I’ve met some of them, but they all thank me for bringing light to this issue, and this January they had a meeting that they- reunion meeting- National Association of Firefighters, where they introduced two resolutions. And they named one after me, which was a little embarrassing, but it was one of those things that they voted to take the manufacturers out of their conference; they’re not allowed to take any money from them anymore until they offer a PFAS-free alternative. And remarkably, one company had read the tea leaves the year before, and started working on a PFAS free alternative and had it, the other three companies, [chuckles] well, they didn’t have it, but within a week of that resolution all of them vowed to have it within the next six months. And so, that was done not by publicity, it was done by telling the-the firefighters look, there’syou should wear the gear to keep you safe in the fire, but it’s being treated with material- treat the gear very carefully, and keep it separate from your living space. Don’t wash with other things, all sorts of things you should wash but not with other things, things that they hadn’t thought about before, and nobody had told them that, and these guys go into burning buildings for a living- they know about risk, this is just one more risk. We’re all gonna die, but this would just, you know, enchant-en-enhance-they've enchanted the-enhance for other diseases, and firefighters are already on the frontlines for cancer. They have double the national rate of cancers; is PFAS a part of that? It could be. I can’t prove that- all I can say is that there’s an exposure risk to PFAS, and getting that article out felt one of the best things I’ve ever done. It wasn’t the best piece of science ever done. It was done without a budget, as doing it for free, and we had a little donation from a a-a-a formal firefighter association in Massachusetts, which was great. They got us some of the tests done, but we got a great discount from the test company too because they-they were being nice to service personnel. And so, I think that tells a story of- everyone wanted to get this story out there, and it 6 �changed the industry. And I don’t have anything against the clothing industry, they-they fought it for a while, but they just had no idea, they weren’t told the truth either, they were- and so, as a bunch [unclear] she’s changing, it’ll cost some money to do so, I’m sure, but firefighters will be safe, and it will take years to do, but they get it now. And, I think that’s the sort of story of where my life as a scientist changed cause I’m doing something for society that I can go home and be very proud of, you know. It was an argument, and I think I was right, and there’s a paper coming out next month that’ll show that I was right, but I missed a whole part, there’s a whole- there’s even more there than we thought, and you know, that’s the purpose of putting a scientific paper out, that other people can copy it. And they did, it got a lot of results, and then they said, by the way, we ran the qi aspect as well, and I got a different load of PFAS coming out, and I was like, oh my gosh, it’s even worse than we thought, which means it was good to get the paper out because now other people have done other studies. There will be more studies of firefighter blood, which we made to make sure that this is the type of source that’s getting into them. I’m gonna pray it might be, and you know, but my biggest fear is that I’m right, and that’s a terrible thing to have, it- I’m hoping that it’s-it’s small compared to other source contributions. It’s just one of the many that we get, but it also applies to- gee, who else wears the uniform? Well, the military does, our flight attendants do in the sky, people go to school in uniforms. Guess where these companies have actually put their chemicals? All the above. And so, this has much larger implications, and the firefighters are just a- as usual first on the scene, and they are the first ones to be exposed to this. And you know, I hope that isn’t the source of exposure that’s killing them, but it could be, and that- we’d need to report that, and people who do exposure science are now working on studies to see how much of it is through the skin. We’ve got a study going on during that too, and it looks like it goes through the skin, but how much is the question right. And so, if that’s the- if you’re wearing it and it goes through the skin, then these guys are really on the short-end of the stick; they shouldn’t be wearing it, they should be wearing something else. And I don’t think it’ll go, the skin is a pretty good protector, it shouldn’t go through skin well, but somebody’s gotta measure that, so that’s what’s going on now. How does that change my life? Well, I get invited to go to firefighter conventions now, I’ve never done that before, and they took pictures of me standing in front of shiny red trucks, but it’s really good to talk to people who don’t necessarily speak science every day, or they-they speak in at a whole different level, the complexion sciences, but they this is a a exposure risk that I want to communicate without alarming people. They got to keep wearing that gear, they can’t go in a fire without gear on, that would be unsafe, so we clearly have to change the gear, and that’s something that they can help buy-buying the gear that you have this choice of gear with the chemical and without, and both are safe. Well then they’ll buy the one without, the other one’s gotta be proven safe, and follow NFPA standards. 7 �So, that’s where my life is, I spend hours a week now talking with firefighters, talking with, everybody has something that they want to send in, will send me a product, and say, is this possibly- I've done underwear, I’ve done turf grass on natural turf grass fields, I’ve done, everything gets sent in, and we’ve had very- we’ll get upset by saying, hey, why is it in underwear? Why is it in my turf grass? And we-we go back to natural grass. And there’s an industry that says no we can’t, we got to go the [unclear] our stuff, and there’s reasons why we think there are PFAS in some of those fields, and that’s coming up. So there’sthere’s a whole bunch of issues out there, and there’s no right or wrong- it’s just what we’ve decided as a society that’s important, and measuring these things I can do. And so that’s what I stick to, the science, but I have to be able to present it to the right people, and the right people can make changes. We just fired a shot across the cosmetics industry now, we did the same thing with food packaging, but we did it with 230 cosmetics we got off the shelf, and there’s fluorine in all of them, and that was everybody’s favorite paper because everybody wears cosmetics. Well, not everybody, but half the country wears cosmetics, and the other half drink what goes into the waste. [chuckles] And that means everybody’s concerned by this. And, it went viral. A lot of people were very concerned with their cosmetics [unclear]. It wasn’t designed- I only measured 200, there’s 20,000 out there so I didn’t measure your cosmetics, I can’t- I can’t answer that, but I can-I can say that the industry didn’t label it, and they know they didn’t label it, and so, what can they do about them? Well, they can, they don’t make the chemicals, they just formulate them into-into the cosmetics. So they can put a requirement on their suppliers that they don’t use fluoric chemicals, that they don’t use PFAS. And that’s all that they need to do. They need to say, I don’t use it and here’s the label saying I don’t intentionally use any of them, and that- and then they have to spot-check. Somebody has to do a-a test, but for a 20 billion dollar industry, doing a few spot-tests, they can afford. And this won’t drive any of them out of business, it’ll just change the way that they do-do business. And the consumer will be safe. And I can go to sleep with that every night. I’m not hounding any company out of business- I’m not, that’s not my job. I work with industry more often than anything else because this paper was designed for industry to realize that, oops, we forgot to label this, and it’s getting why, and some of them didn’t know they had it in them. I’m sure some did, but some of them had no idea that that this formulation they were using that worked so well, was actually highly fluorinatedDD: Hmm. GP: -and had PFAS in it. And so that’s where, I think, education, I’m an educator as well as researcher- that’s we educate people; we don’t do it to make lawsuits. I don’t work for law firms. [chuckles] I don’t work for car- private companies that say, hey, can you measure my stuff? I’ll measure anybody’s stuff for free, but I’m not gonna be on a contract with a company to get the 8 �right answer. And that’s the independent academic model. I don’t want to test things for a living; I just want to understand where the fate and transport of these chemicals go, and if I know that we’re using them in in carpet, we’re using them in turf grass, we’re using them in clothing, we’re using them in packaging, we’re also reusing them, and it’s pretty scary how much is getting into our bodies. And I don’t wanna go as the how it’s getting into our bodies, but most of us are eating and drinking it. Maybe some of it’s going through our skin, but either way, the best way to get rid of it is get rid of making this material with PFAS. So that’s my story, it’s a-it’s a fascinating scientific story. I don’t know if it’ll be any interest to the public. What it’s done for me and- the most common question I get asked is, well, have you changed anything personally since this epiphany that it’s everywhere? And I have, I’ve changed to a fluorine-free home as best as I can. [chuckles] I discovered that my dental floss had it, oops. I discovered that my cookware, that’s all gone. I-I don’t think much comes off from cookware because it’s pretty [unclear] on there, but the process of manufacturing- it makes a lot of this stuff, and it poisoned all the people and dark waters that you saw in-in West Virginia, so why don’t we just stop buying it and having any consumer brand, and I thought my eggs would fail ever since then cause how do you get something off the stick? And it turns out, my eggs weren’t that good anyway, but theyDD: [laughs] GP: -they are just as good. They work on a ceramic pan. I-I was amazed, they cook just as well. I hadn’t been hoodwinked into thinking that teflon was the only thing that was non-stick- it’s not true, it works fine. And so, there are alternatives for most PFAS, and then there are a few cases where there aren’t alternatives like space [unclear] based used of lubricants. Well, if I’m sending a rocket 30 years out to Pluto, yeah- it’s gotta have a fluoric [unclear] it’s the only thing that’llDD: [laughs] GP: last that long and keep working, but I use a test tube of that a year, but 50 ga- you know, 50 tonka trucks a day, which is what we’re producing now, and so I think that’s the scale. And there’s an- I know of an ocular-operation procedure that doctor’s use and they-they need fluorine packets in there, sure. How many retinal detachment surgeries do you need a year? It’s not gonna be a big barrel, where as going to the mall and staying waterproof, but really the best waterproof we’ve ever made, you know, that’s not essential use, nor are cosmetics, you know. I-I’d love to keep mascara and not looking like a raccoon out of the pool, but we are getting so far as that we’re fluorinating swimsuits- that people can go from the pool to the bar without a towel because they dry naturally—they’re water resistant. I would-I would claim that that’s not essential use, and [chuckles] and that, you know, if that chemical comes off, or certainly will when you dispose of it at the end, then we’re all gonna drink that, and that chemical lasts for thousands of 9 �years. It will cycle through us and our children and there’s-there’s no purpose to doing that, and so that’s the soapbox I stand on, and I’ve been to a lot of audiences saying that now, and it-it feels right to do something that’s positive. And it feels, I connect with the community better— people like what I’m saying even if they don’t like the message sometimes in the industry. But, industries actually do like finding this out before they find out from lawsuits some other way, and this is-this is- you know, several industries are changing just because they know now there’s an alternative they can use, and instead of selling the most stain-resistant pants, they sell the most stretchy pants, turns out that was a bigger seller. DD: [laughs] GP: We’re all overweight. And I think that-that is a, you know, life lesson for companies. And companies like humans do the right thing, most of the time. There’s always a few that don’t, and I can’t help them. I can’t help most people that don’t listen, but if they are given the information they can make pretty educated decisions. And so, our job as scientists is to get information out in a form that’s understandable. And this whole issue looking at environmental containiments, got my science communication tuned up a little bit, but I think really PFAS has launched me into that whole new realm of- I have to talk to reporters now occasionally; that’s a scary concept, and whatever you say gets printed, trust me. I’ve said some silly things and that shows up for everybody to read, and so I really try to-to be correct when I speak. I try to slow down, doesn’t happen, but I-I am trying to tell people what I believe and what I think is true, and I have evidence to back up what I say, and then other people reproduce my evidence, and that’s-that’s the scientific process. The unusual part is actually communicating it the way we do. We not only put out a paper that’s peer reviewed, but we then go to a newspaper when they ask, and by studying things that people are concerned with, you get more newspaper asked, and or I-I media, let’s call it media nowadays, but it’s-it’s one of those things that you know if I can do this correctly and people learn from it, then that’s the model for all scientists to follow. Not-not everybody is gonna do this type of work, but those that do it- the 10% that do applied science, should do outreach on this and should do communication. There’s some reason why a lot of the applied research is done with companies. They don’t want to announce this to people, they- that the companies that made these fluorine chemicals have known this data for years, and they've never announced any of it, but they don’t want to. I think most of the rest of the world if you’re an independent researcher in academia, you should be able to look at things and be able to report what you see. And I can, so that I'm grateful, I hope it makes an impact in the right way. Very few people seem to be mad at me at moments, that’s good. But I,you know, don’t shoot the messenger, but here’s ways we can try to improve it, and-and never just [unclear] doom and gloom, I’m not invited to parties much anymore. DD: [laughs] 10 �GP: I’m all about fluorinated microwave popcorn. But people listen when you give them alternatives and say, “do you want to do this or do you want to do this without the chemical?” and they’re all alternatives where we could do that, and they’d cost more, sometimes they’d cost less. It’s a question of what material, what application, and-and, you know, people told us we’d never get rid of firefighting foams- they’re so essential, could never get rid of that wonderful functionality. Well guess what, the federal government has mandated we’re gonna get out of all fluorinated firefighting foams by 2023, for every military application they’ve got. And that was about 2/3rds of the market, so all of a sudden we have fluorine-free foams available that have been around for 5 years, but never used wisely in this country. And the entire country is gonna be changed that way in 5 years, and so that’s-that’s remarkable progress. And it was done through an act of regulation actually. The government put in the defense of authorization act, yeah. Congress works sometimes. And it’s really impressive to see that, so what can I do? I as a scientist- I locked into this area. I have a technique that we’re- and we can use that to inform policymakers, we can use that to inform the public, we can use that to inform the-the purchasers— these companies that purchased things that they used that they sell, that their, if the consumer facing it all, they can sell a bit of product. And so, it’s an opportunity- these paper makers saw it as an opportunity and not a threat, and that’s really an advantage. The two chemical companies in this country that make this chemical always see it as a threat. And I- they luckily make lots of other things, and are useful. So I don’t think their entire business model depends on this, but they are gonna be hurt by this as people-as people find it in their blood. So, that’s-that’s my concern. That’s a lot of talking. I hope you can edit that. [laugh] DD: Well, thank you for taking the time to share your story today Graham. GP: Yeah. Yeah, It’s very egocentric, I think-I think we’ve talked about me and my role in it, but the changes are what I see in myself, and communicating with people and the relationship I have with the community. I’ve always worked in community science at Ferris, but this is-this is hitting home, and people like the fact that I’m doing it, so we’ll try to be as impartial as possible. We’ll try to get as many things done as we can, and it’s coming, we’re getting papers, we’re getting publications, we’re getting funding, so that helps. DD: Yeah. Absolutely. 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0027 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Peaslee, Graham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-09-02 Title A name given to the resource Graham Peaslee, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Dr. Graham Peaslee is a professor at the University of Notre Dame. He began his career in nuclear physics and chemistry and now studies environmental issues. In this interview, he discusses his work identifying and measuring PFAS chemicals used in the clothing industry, in firefighting equipment, and in many other industrial and consumer products. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/202e63b7f08efc99b8528ccee82dc72d.mp4 b23d1bbb8402bcebbd3eec8715f7e8cd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c8079565f3e6e43fc0f62d5ac6fa5b8.pdf 40acf0d95534eb88182f866ccaffc3de PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Abigail Hendershott Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: August 13, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, August 13th, 2021 I have the pleasure of chatting with Abby Hendershott. Hi Abby. AH: Hi Dani. Nice to be here. DD: Yes, thank you for being here and talking with me today. Abby, can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live? AH: I am currently living in Rockford, Michigan though I am from the Bay City area originally, but I do have a residence up north as well, so I seem to be on the west side of the state quite a bit. DD: How long have you been in Rockford? AH: Since 1996, so 20-since 25 years. DD: Abby, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS [per-and polyfluoroalkyl substances] or with PFAS in your community? AH: Yeah, so PFAS, for me, folded in a very personal way and we-you know working with-at the time that PFAS started unfolding with Wolverine it was 2017. I was the assistant district supervisor for the remediation redevelopment division in the Grand Rapids district office. The supervisor at the time-the district supervisor at the time, was handling the-starting the project. Had the-some of the initial meetings-was kind of handling the situation as the initial sampling and discussions with Wolverine started happening. We were-you know the communityconcerned citizens came to us at the end of January. I was not in that meeting but then in subsequent meetings as things started to unfold, the health department got a request for a well permit right next to what was known as the house street dump area, and we didn’t have really good record on the area, it wasn’t something that was on our radar, it wasn’t something we had worked on in our division in a couple of decades. So, it wasn’t something that we were intimately familiar with, but when the well request came in for the health department we thought, well we’d better take a look at it. Things quickly escalated. The first 8 houses were sampled, those were okay, but then when the Belmont Armory tested their well as part of a National PFAS testing for all the armory sites across the state or across the country, they got a PFAS hit that indicated we needed to go back and resample some more. So, what started as a few houses, I think the initial sampling was 35 houses, quickly escalated to-and this was July of 2017-we had staff out there trying to figure out, you know, which houses would be most at risk. We didn’t have any monitoring well data, we didn’t have any ground water data. And so, it was a very, very intense time and so once it really started getting kicked off, for myself, I was working as the Assistant District Supervisor helping to support staff as we were going through this, but then the 1 �District Supervisor actually got a promotion and by September of that year, and was in Lansing, and so I took over as the District Supervisor in the middle of this. So, by, you know, July we had sampled 35 houses by September we were recommending sampling 300 houses. By December we were up to 650 houses, and the [laugh] the real kicker was that in addition to the residential drinking water sampling that-that staff were doing, Wolverine was actually doing it the staff were actually out in the field with the Wolverine consultants trying to make sure we were talking with residents, giving them enough information, it was a tremendous strain on-one of the most intense periods of my entire career because we had so many people calling us and at one point we didn’t understand that-we didn’t know where else Wolverine would have dumped. We had a lot of concerns that there were other locations around the county that Wolverine would have dumped. [coughs] And so this started trickling out into the-into the community, and so we were getting hundreds of calls from the community about people finding barrels, finding what they thought were leather scraps, finding all kinds of things, and so we had to basically stand up by the-by the end of October we had to stand up our instinant command system and have our instant managers, there were 8 of them that came over and helped us through-through the next six months to really investigate all of these complaints, help us talk with residents, help us make sure we were, you know, getting back to the 650 residents that were being sampled, and at that point then by November we were-I had set up with-with the team and with Wolverine that we would do daily meetings. So, every day we had a team of, you know, remember we had two staff working on this in July, and by November we had basically 15 of us working on this daily. DD: WowAH: It was-it was so intense. Seriously one of the most intense things that we did, and so, at one point, we are sampling, you know, one of the Rockford Middle Schools, we’re sampling some of the Elementary Schools to make sure the schools are okay. You know, the Rockford High School was-was served by municipal water so that was good, but all the way around it had neighborhoods that were served by the drinking water wells. And so, these constant meetings and-and, you know it was very stressful for staff, but it was very stressful for the community. And so, the first meeting that happened in September with the town hall was-was before I kind of took over as the District Supervisor, but that first meeting was with our-our field staff were up there to try to kind of explain what was going on and-and as well as Wolverine as well as the Health Department. And it was, you know, like a four and a half hour meeting with, I don’t know, probably-there were probably 600 people in the room. It was huge. The next meeting we had in November we coordinated a little better and had the whole Freshman Center gymnasium set up, plus we were televising it, so we had, we figure, over a thousand people in person, plus all the media crews, plus the Sheriff, plus probably another 200 people live streaming from theirfrom their thing. So that was, you know again, that’s still on YouTube if you want to-[laugh] if you want to go take a look at it. So that was November of-of 2017, and so by, you know, by that point then we are fully in the midst. People are all on bottled water, people don’t understand what’s going on. Wolverine is starting to install full house filters but we just don’t know that we’ve gotten the full extent of that contamination going on, and through this whole thing I’ve got you know friends of mine who live in the area, people that I go to church with, people that I go to the gym with, people, you know, stopping me to talk about what’s going on. Are they at risk? Should they be drinking their water? Should they be, you know, all these questions, and the fear and anxiety was at a level that I had never really, really experienced before, so-so it was a pretty 2 �intense time. Things shifted by the time we got into 2018, we-the state had established a drinking water-a groundwater cleanup criteria for the protection of drinking water. So, we had then a-a regulatory limit for PFOA and PFOS, so, all through 2017, we were having Wolverine go out and assess these homes, but we had no regulatory authority to-to establish an actual cleanup limit. So, all we had at that point was a EPA health advisory limit, which they were working with, but it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t a regulatory inforcible criteria that we could enforce this as a state. So, 2018, early on, we got that and we continued then to have Wolverine assess more and more houses. December-December-beginning of December we got results. So, one particular story, I’ll tell you about that I think is really-wow it was pretty unnerving, we had had conversations all through this fall we were doing township meetings, we were doing neighborhood meetings, we did a lot of after hour meetings trying to just get the information out to people, but one of them was a neighborhood up in-in the north of Tenmont, in an area we thought would not be impacted by the house street dump. And, you know, when looking at the data, all of the groundwater from the house street dump went Southeast. This particular area was to the Northeast so they should have been out of the range of any contamination. We said, we don’t really think there’s anything in your neighborhood. You know, we talked to them, we said it-it’s pretty unlikely, but they-everybody at that point was -there was a lot of people trying to get their own testing done because they didn’t know what they were finding, so we had people not only sending us complaints about barrels and leather scraps, but also sending us their private testing data, and one of those-one of those houses that was close to this particular neighborhood was-we had been talking to the township or to the Neighborhood Association President for a while and one of them came back as being a-like a thousand parts per trillion of drinking water. So, I got Wolverine to-to agree to do the whole neighborhood. They gave them bottled water, they agreed to do all the testing in the neighborhood. [cough] Three weeks later, we get the results and it’s a Saturday. I’m seeing the results come in. They-usually, because it was a laboratory that worked on the West Coast, the results would all come in on a Friday night, late, like 10 o’clock. So, Saturday morning I’m sitting there looking at these results going oh my god, there is house after house after house in this neighborhood, in this Wellington rich neighborhood, that was at eight thousand, 20 thousand, 10 thousand, I mean like, the whole neighborhood was so severely impacted it was just like oh my god. And again, these are-these are people I know, and one of the families that I was attending church with, you know, she’s pregnant, she’s got four little kids. You know, they’ve raised all-all the kids drinking this water, and it was just-it was heartbreaking. So, for me I think that was one of those pivotal moments where we just go, wow I can’t believe this, because it was not-it was not something that we would have ever been able to identify except through his very extraordinary set of circumstances that brought us to this point-you know in a normal investigation you stick with the area, you know the contamination, you define it. And, we had the house streets contamination somewhat defined, but this was an entirely new area, and it was something that, you know, Wolverine said that it didn’t have any records for. They said they never dumped there. We think that somebody dumped a whole-whole barrel of scotchgard, whether it was something that somebody took home and just dumped in their backyard or what happened, it was such a-a high strength source that there’s just no other way it could have been done. And, unfortunately, where this was dumped at, was at a topographic high, and it was part of a-a-because the Rogue River goes around the whole area, it was not only at a topographic high, but it was at like a groundwater divide, and so groundwater went in five directions. We ended up, from that one source area, having a very strong plume that went off to the Northwest, some fingers of plumes that went off to the Northeast, another plume 3 �that went to the Southeast, all following the Rogue River but from different locations. And-and we were guessing at this, completely guessing at this. Had a Geologist working on staff that did a fabulous job and trying to figure it all out but hours after hours, I mean, the-the staff, you know, we had literally the Incident Managers work with us from like November to March, but even after that it was full time for myself, the project manager, the Geologist, another person on staff, and then all the other resource staff that we needed to keep going for two or three years. And so, you know, in the end we were able to get some agreement with Wolverine to actually get an incentive degree written, get the almost 70 million dollars to get municipal water hook-up for a thousand homes, which we’re very proud of. Plus then they’re going to go back and they have to access all of these different locations where the groundwater is benting to surface water, because we know that there is, you know, the groundwater continues to be a source for PFAS, and it is going to continue to impact the Rogue River for the long term, so that’s something that is moreone of their ongoing obligations. So I’m gonna stop there and see what your next question is. [laugh] DD: [laugh] Well I’m just struck by how much PFAS is bringing the personal and the professional together for you. I’m wondering if this is typical for you in the work that you do, or if this is kind of a unique or maybe a more intense situation? AH: Very, very intense, very unique. I mean, we’re always striving to make sure residents know what we’re doing, and that we talk with residents about their concerns, but this was-you know, this was a project that was one of those lifetime events. You-we hopefully will never have another project quite like this. And when I, you know, now I’ve gone from a District Supervisor in Grand Rapids for the last couple years, and I’m now-have the privilege of being the-the Executive Director for the Michigan PFAS Action Response Team, so I’ve actually stepped up to the state level. And when I look at the concentrations that we’re finding around the rest of the state. When I look at the magnitude of what is at other sites, this is still the worst. This is by far the first-the worst of the contamination, the worst of the impacts to residents, the-the-just the amount of contam-the high strength of the contamination as well as the-the distribution of how far that it has gone. It’s probably got a full 23, 24 miles-square miles of contamination of groundwater, surface water. Soils, of course, not so much but definitely have an ongoing source. So, this is one that I think will, you know, I think somebody will-it’ll somehow end up in a story in some way, so it’ll be your story but the-but it’s really a very unique situation. We just don’t have that-we will have other sites that will, yes, we’ll have to do town meetings, and yes, we’ll meet people, and we’ll try to get them clean water. You may find one or two houses, you may find a couple of houses, but you’re not going to find this. So, we’ve got other sites where we’ve sampled, you know, a couple hundred homes, but we’ve not found concentrations like this. And as you know from talking with people who have been impacted, you know, we had one house that topped over a hundred thousand parts per trillion drinking water well. That’s probably the highest one in the country I would-I would guess. DD: Just sounds overwhelming. [laughs] AH: It was overwhelming. It was overwhelming. Our team did a great job, but I can’t, you know, as with everything we had a physical breaking point where it was just-it was-you just sat there and cried. Because, you know, I had people in my office talk to us one-on-one and it’s, you 4 �know, you’re sitting there after hours talking with these people, and they’re just crying their hearts out. So, it was not just a job at that point, it was really everything we could do to try to make it-and then you’re balancing it with the constant, constant media requests. The trying to balance the-the narrative that’s coming out of the media, and the narrative that’s coming out of Wolverine, and the narrative that we’re trying to promote, that, you know, we’re trying to do the best job we can. It was overwhelming, and there’s no doubt about it, so, that job was much harder than this job that I’ve got now. [laughs] Which seems weird, but it really was. DD: [laughs] Can-would you say more about the work that you did with communicating with the community. I mean I know you said that the whole situation was more intense, but it seems like, especially like the community engagement communication part was also kind of a really key part of your work and just, maybe unique to this situation. AH: For sure and I think this-this really, you know, started paving the way for how we do community engagement now for MPART overall. As things started to unfold, you know the firstthe first townhall was in September of 2017. It was-it was an eye opener for us. We figured people would be a little upset, we figured that yes, you’d get people to come but the visceral anger and a lot of it was pointed at Plainfield township. Which we didn’t expect, we didn’t understand that there was already this residual tension between the residents and township which is something that we had not even expected or understood. And-and then, you know, at that point they-they didn’t really understand the whole wolverine thing so much, so, you know, they didn’t take their anger out on them. But that was a real eye opener for us and so at that point we started getting [coughs] requests from some of the townships, Algoma township specifically, that they wanted to have some neighborhood meetings. And I said, you know I think that's a good idea. So, we started meeting with some small, you know, small subdivisions basically. We had probably, I want to say in between 2017, 2018, we probably did 20, 25 neighborhood meetings in addition to the September town hall, the November town hall. We had a, I want to say there was another one in there as well as all the media stuff. So we were trying to kind of attack it at all of the different levels, not only to try to get the word out to the media, who's kind of controlling the narrative, but try to reach to the Township, make sure that they were supported because they were just as overwhelmed as we were trying to answer resident calls and questions and then getting in there and-and really talking to people one on one, I think, is where we were able to turn that narrative around. Me, you know this-I think, personally, despite all of the contamination, despite all of the-the anxiety, there’s some-one of the things I think that became very evident was that there is a very much that seven stages of grief that goes with finding out that, you know, if it's a death in the family or some major trauma or some major shock, that's what these people were going through was you had the whole-they were very angry, then they were very sad, then they were very resigned and then-. And it probably took a full-it probably took a full 18 months for some of these people to work through those [clearing throat] those stages. And it was very obvious that it was easy to blame, you know, Eagle. It was easy to blame Wolverine at the time. [clearing throat] And obviously, you know, the contamination did come from them. So that was justified. 5 �But they didn't get the response that they wanted from Wolverine. They didn't get any kind of personal connection. [clearing throat] They didn't get a way to talk to them because they were so insulated with lawyers that they-they had no connection. So, we provided that ability for them to, you know, ask us the questions, try to give some sort of feedback to help them feel justified or- in what they were doing. You know, I think over the-the timeframe from like September to November, December, I think we ended up with, like, 600 calls that went to our environmental Assistance Center. When they couldn't get one of us, they would call our 800 number. And so, you know, it was crazy trying to deal with it. But I think the best way you deal with it is on that personal contact, that one on one contact where you're really sitting down and talking to people. And we did. We went into people's homes. We had-we went into if any of the neighborhood Association invited us, we went in and talk to them. We did a ton of night meetings and that really is what changed the attitude and changed this. And so, despite this being the worst of what I see in the state, I think it's the best example of a good response, a great response from not only Eagle, but all of our partners as we work through this. You know, we worked daily at these daily meetings with Eagle or DEQ at that point was not only all of our staff, but we had local health Department, Kent county health Department there every day. We had Plainfield Township there just about every day. We had the state health Department, Department of Health and Human Services was there with us every day. And so, you know we had 20 people. Plus, we had Wolverine there every day. Plus, we had their consultant there every day. We soon hired our own consultant to-to help take samples. And by December-December, January of 2018 is when EPA showed up and they started meeting with us every day. And so, these team meetings were big, but it was the only way to keep the wheels on the bus. And it was the only way to keep the coordination and the communication going. And so, I think because we forced that model and we forced everybody to come together every day, it really turned out to be hugely successful in the way it was implemented. Not to say there weren't bumps. There was always bumps. But considering how long some of the other litigations can go on, how little the-the, you know, actual residents can get out of these things, I think we did pretty well in trying to negotiate a response for, you know, municipal water hook up for 1000 homes, plus some sort of a capping for House Street, as well as a investigation for all of the groundwater getting into surface water and those kinds of natural resource damage stuff so- I think we'll leave-I’ll leave that one there then. DD: Okay. What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward at this point? AH: You know, that's a great question. I worry about what we don't know. I worry about what we're not looking for that five years, ten years down the road. We wish we would have known when we're doing our investigations now. I worry about the other types of PFAS light chemicals that are out there in our world that we aren't paying enough attention to. But yet they're pervasive-they’re, you know, PFAS is unique in that it has- [clearing throat] it's not only a persistent biocumulative toxin, it’s-we're finding it everywhere. We're finding it in our soils and 6 �our groundwater, in our air, in our-in our bodies. And without a full worldwide response to this and the fact that we are already, you know, consuming so much of this, we expect these-we expect the luxury of our first world country, which includes the use of a ton of PPAS chemicals. How do we turn that expectation around to-to be able to eliminate some of this stuff? And I think that's going to take a long time. And I fear that-[laughs] that the long-term ramifications of what we've allowed to happen in the last 60 years will take, you know, the next 180 years to rectify, because that's-that’s really the big piece. We started using this stuff in the 50s, and it's now 2021, and we're just starting to get our hands around it, and we still don't have federal standards, and we still don't have a national response to this. So those are the kinds of things that-that I worry about. And unfortunately, so far, PFAS has not become-it's a political thing, but it's still getting bipartisan support, which was one thing that, when we started off, when MPART was first established in the fall- in November of 2017, really indirect response to what was happening at Wolverine. Governor Snyder at the time saw what was happening at Wolverine, saw us go from 50 houses to 200 houses to 600 houses and said, okay, we can't have that happening again, set this up. And he kind of threw this MPART structure at us, which, you know, we didn't even, we didn’t realize was coming at the time, it’s all being done at the governor’s level. But it is really what has shaped us. And so, one of the things that we were pretty careful about doing when we were going out and doing neighborhood meetings, when we were going out and doing town halls, was we included all of the legislators because, you know, Senator McGregor at the time, Peter McGregor, was, again, very involved because this was his neighborhood. These were his people. These were his neighbors as well. As well as Kevin Green, who is Algoma supervisor again, very-very involved. And so, that kind of-that kind of legislative personal stories was taken back to the legislature and was really the reason that we were able to get some of the first pots of dedicated PFAS money for response. And so that next year, then in 2018, the legislature actually gave the state, you know, 25 million to handle some of the PFAS response. We were able to go out and do statewide drinking water sampling for all the municipal systems, which is huge. Nobody ese-I don't think anyone else in that some of the other States are just starting to do that. But we were the only one, and I think we still are the only one that has consistently gone through and done all of our municipal water supplies. We've done all of our daycares. We've done all of our schools, we’ve done-you know we're working on all the type twos and type three water supplies. And so that was huge step forward in what Michigan-so we've taken the situation that started with Wolverine, started with this one community. It's expanded now to making MPART really be at the forefront of what's going on for PFAS across the whole country. So now we're getting-we’re getting asked, how do you do this? How do you make this happen? And for me, MPART is one of those things that I think again is a once in a lifetime opportunity because we have an opportunity to be collaborative with and cut off all of the normal chain of command type of situations that you have with state government or you have with any 7 �government and really go to the experts in each of the departments. So, we have seven different departments that are all participating in MPART. Eagle, Department of Health and Human Services, DNR, our Department of Military Veterans Affair for all their bases. We have our fire Marshal, we have our Department of Transportation who handles all the airports, and I'm missing one. There's one more. [laughs] Anyway, we bring all of that team together, and we meet with them weekly. We're all in the same room together, at least weekly, talking about things because, you know, has become very evident. As with our airports, PFAS is much used in all of our firefighting foam, which the airports have to use for airplane crash and rescue. And so, they trained with it. So, we've got large parts of the state with pretty high concentrations from what we call AAFES. But that coordination has to happen with everybody because you got people out there taking surface water samples, taking groundwater samples. DOT actually regulates the airport themselves. You've got Eagle regulating all the media contamination. But you’ve got-in some cases, you've got DNR who may have migratory birds that end up on the airport. You know, they end up in their holding ponds. There's all these weird connections that go in there. But the thing that's so successful about it is that collaboration, that communication, that coordination happens in a structure that is set on top of-it’s like an umbrella that sits on top of the state government and allows us to do and leverage really great work at an exponential rate beyond what we would normally be able to do. If you have to work through a normal chain of command, you can't have those conversations. So, it's almost like what we did in Wolverine with actually getting into the neighborhood, talking to the people one on one, only flipped and reversed. So now we're getting into those agencies and talking one on one with, what do we need to do with Peacocks? What do we need to do? What's our next steps? Where do we need to go as a state, as a country, as a world? And so, I'm very proud of the fact that we're going to continue those personal conversations and keep those things going on. One of the things that we're doing this winter is having our second PFA- Great Lakes PFAS conference. So last year, we were able to have about 1600 participants, all online, but we had three different countries, 35 different States. We had presenter from Germany, we had presenters from Australia, and it was a way to have that conversation about what's going on with KBAs. What do we know? What don't we know? So, this year, same thing. We're going to do another virtual conference in December, and my hopes are that-that we can continue that conversation about where do we need to go with PFAS? I think some of the big unknowns are still, what does it mean to have PFAS concentrations in soil? If-if it's an okay concentration for soil, that it won't Leach to groundwater, is it an okay concentration that it can't be taken up into plants, or that it can't be taken up into the silage for the cows, and then it doesn't get into the milk. So, there's a whole lot more that we don't know. I mean, I think we've just hit the tip of the iceberg for what we do know about PFAS. And so, when I think about what's to come, we've still got a long, long ways. But I think we've at least at the state level, I'm very proud of the work that 8 �we've been able to do. And the [laughs] you know how you-the old expression is, you never get more than you can handle. God doesn't allow you to handle more than he-he thinks you can handle. So what-what was allowed, what we went through for that whole experience with Wolverine has really shaped not only our state responses, but also the way that hopefully we can go forward, because I think the best thing that we can do for PFAS, the best thing we can do for our state, and for our Great Lake States, especially is to make sure that we continue to have those conversations around collaboration of data, collaboration of responses. What do we know, you know, what's truly a fluorine free foam? We've got a lot more conversations that are going on behind the scenes. DD: Absolutely. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven't touched on today or anything you'd like to go back to and say more about? AH: You know, I don't know that there's anything in particular that sticks out. I think that this will this particular experience with Wolverine will always be one of those special experiences in a lot of different ways. But I think-what, you know, for me, it's not just been a project. It's about the people. I’m very much a people person. And so, when I think about getting to know the people around the area who have been most impact, I think of Sandy Windstalt and I think of Jenny Kearney, and we've gotten to know the people on our Community Advisory group or the Wolverine [keg?] very well. A lot of those people then stepped up and are not just concerned about Wolverine but their also now actually participating on our statewide citizens advisory work group, that I’m now chairing as well. So, they’re the people that are great voices in the room to be able to provide perspective. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hendershott, Abigail Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-08-13 Title A name given to the resource Abigail Hendershott, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Abby Hendershott is originally from Bay City, Michigan and now lives in Rockford, Michigan. In this interview, Abby discusses her work as a District Supervisor in relation to the PFAS water contamination at former Wolverine dumping sites. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3778970e7b323fdddfbc7f2e7d3833bf.mp4 2c2678b17b05df2ab6ff655206cef89c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a053a58f4ee5da672fa92f8d82df1e90.pdf e80711672394d88ff4762f5d9a1fd89a PDF Text Text Living With PFAS Interviewee: Laura Facciolo Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: July 21, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, July 21st, 2021 I have the pleasure of chatting with Laura Facciolo. Hi Laura. LF: Hello. Good morning. DD: Can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live? LF: I’m living in Italy- in the northeast of Italy, where there is a region named Veneto. So Veneto is- we have Venice that is the main city for us. DD: And how long have you lived there? LF: Since I was born, so nearly 43 years. [chuckles] DD: Thank you. Laura, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? LF: Yes, so I started having some information regarding PFAS [per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances] in 2017 in the early spring, because there were people saying that some teenagers near to our province- I’m living in the province of Padua- and in the province of Vicenza there were tests done on teenagers. And these tests were blood tests in order to find out some unknown compounds that were having very difficult names, and these compounds were PFAS. We were very worried because the information that we were receiving was not official information, so where- this information was not coming from official ways but was coming from other people that were knowing- I don’t know- friends or others living in that area. And they were saying that these compounds were present in the aquaduct, and the same aqueduct was also serving us. So even if we were not immediately involved in this blood test we were obviously worried because we were in the identical situation in terms of aqueduct. And what we immediately started to think was about our kids because these preliminary tests were as I said, done on the teenagers. So we were obviously worried about our kids and what was done at school, because many of us are having kids that are going to school where they also had lunch and were in the last years. It was told to us and told to the children that the best possible water we drink is the- let’s say- major water, so the water that was coming from the aqueduct and this was also advertised a lot in order not to use plastic bottles and so on. So we immediately stopped using aqueduct water. Also to cook pasta that you know, as an Italian is present a lot in- yes, in our food and our- what we are cooking. But we were worried because the kids when they were at school- they were also having lunch 1 �there and everything was cooked with aqueduct water. So again we started writing to our managers in order to have some information because no doctor was available and no information, nothing—also our physicians were not informed at all. And when we also after 1 or 2 months- when we also started receiving the invitations in order to go and get these blood tests done, our physicians were not aware of anything. And so the first- I would say that- the first 3 to 4 months were passed in order- doing a lot of meetings with each other in order to gain information between citizens living in the free provinces that are impacted by this pollution. And we finally understood that there was- there isa company that is based in the Vicenza- near Vicenza. And this company named the Miteni- in this moment now is closed- was producing these compounds since- 40 years at least and was discharging everything in a small river that is in contact with the groundwater. And unfortunately what happened is that we had a so-called free lather of contamination, because we- of water contamination- because the groundwater was contaminated- fully contaminated- and the superficial water- that is rivers and more rivers- were contaminated and the aqueduct water was contaminated also because the aqueducts are taking water from the groundwater that it’s in. And just to give you an idea, the groundwater that is contaminated is containing the same water of the Garda Lake, that is the biggest lake that we have in Italy. DD: Wow. LF: And it is the second aquifer in terms of dimensions in Europe. Unfortunately this is completely contaminated by these compounds. So what happened is that we discovered after months that we were not aware of anything as citizens, but actually information about this contamination was available in 2013, because there was a study that was done in Europe I think. And it was down after the institutions had heard about the Ohio disaster, the New Bond disasterso they decided to test all the rivers in Europe, and this study lasted 2 years. And it’s called the PERFORCE [Perfluorinated Organic Compounds in the European Environment] study. And they found out the levels of PFAS in the rivers of all Europe. What happened is that they found out that Po river- that is the biggest river in Italy and is in the north- was having a level of contaminants that was 10 times bigger than the 2nd most contaminated European river, that is the Thames. DD: Wow. LF: And so they did another study in order to find out what was the- from where these compounds were arriving. So this study was done in Italy and only in Italy, obviously, in order to try to understand what was contaminating the Po River. And they finally understood that- there was the 99% of compounds coming from this company. Unfortunately this was not shared with the citizens, with the relation that was continuing to drink the aqueduct river, to use also to growthe groundwater in order to- for example- for their, yes, for vegetables or fruits that we’re having in the gardens. And so they decided that- we discovered later that they had decided to put some filters in the aquaduct in order to- lowering down the levels of the compounds, at more or less at 500 nanograms per liter, but this was- this level of 500 nanograms per liter was not really decided on the basis of safety or-. It was more or less what they were about to do with the filters. 2 �So after more or less the end of 2013, we were able to have a lower level, but again it was too high for us. And then- we were angry when we discovered that they did not inform us at all and that they simply started to do tests on people without informing the physicians that were also enabled to rate these cleaning sites. Obviously when these things happen, luckily you are not alone, so not all people are having- I don’t know- the strength most of the time to do something, but we were lucky because we found out after months other parents that were worried. So as I said, we started to meet and to speak and to start going to managers, to the president of the region, and going to Rome and going to Brussels in order to find out solutions. So, almost at the end of 2017, we had a confirmation and then we whistled so that a second- there were other filters- so a second kind of filters was applied to the aqueducts in order to reduce the level to a so called technical zero that is more or less 5 nanograms per liter because this is the threshold under which the- yes, the company providing the aqueduct water are arriving with their detecting techniques. That is again not zero for us, so even if now they are saying that things are not solved. Actually this situation is not solved at all. First of all because Meteni is closed. Metini is a company that was obviously in contact with the group that was in contact with the scammers. And so they were perfectly aware of what they were managing, because there was a lot of correspondence between all these companies and they- were perfectly knowing what they were causing. And they had also paid a company that- in order to start- let’s say- having an idea on the cost for remediation of all the plans. And at the end they discovered that the costs in order to remediate the soiled water was bigger than the company level. So the company was sold for 1 euro to another company, the so called ICG [Intermediate Capital Group] company that is based in Luxembourg for 1 euro. And they continued to do what they were doing and in the last years, you know, I told you that the PERFORCE study was done and then the other study in order to find out all the contaminants in the Po River was done. And the results were available not to the public, but to institutions in 2013. So in 2014 the institution provided the approval to this company to work on disposal waters coming from the Netherland Chem Wash in order to- let’s say- they were working on those discharge waters that were used to produce a new PFOS compound that’s named GenX. So they were working on them, on these waters in order to concentrate GenX and be able use, again, these compounds. And this approval was given in 2014, so it’s incredible because we- they were knowing, they were applying filters at that time we were not aware of anything, but they were doing this very costly- these very expensive things done in the aqueducts and they were a few months later getting approval to work on GenX. And again we discovered this later, because we only started in 2017 and the most- you say- what happened- the majority of people were saying to us we were only generating honor with no reason because the water was not safe. And during the official meetings with institutions they were telling us that the water was safe, that the pregnant women and the children may have drunk it without problems. But we have 2 studies done in this area- so the so-called red area, in terms of this triple level of contamination, that demonstrate that a lot of women here are having a lot of troubles during pregnancies. There are a lot of babies that are lost during pregnancies and babies that- so we have both problems in terms of during the pregnancies and then we are also having problems with the newborns that are having a low birth weight. 3 �So, for example, there are a lot of small gestational age newborns having mouth formations and so on. So., two studies are confirming this. Unfortunately, these studies are not linking- were done in- were comparing the situation here with the situation in another Venetal area that is not impacted by PFAS. But they did not do the PFAS tests on moms and newborns unfortunately. Also because they- unfortunately there is no- there is still and- there was and there is still a big problem because they are not willing to show the truth as it is and show the causal relationship with this. I would simply say if PFAS were not the responsible- are not responsible for what is happening to pregnant women and newborns, what is the cause of this? And this is also only 1 of the effects because we have other studies that were done in order to find out if there is a difference in terms of mortality in our area. And a study that was conducted here shows there are more than 1000 people that were- died - and let’s say it was considered as an axis of mortality, respect to other areas of Veneto region. So why this 1 in 1000 people died? And what is the reason that caused this axis of mortality if not PFAS? So, we are now discovering that not only water unfortunately is contaminated, we found out that the most contaminated people were the ones who were growing food in their gardens- vegetables and the fruits- or were also having- yes, animals. These people are having the highest levels of contamination in their lives. So there were studies conducted on the food- we were- there were 2 different studies done in 2015 and 2017. In order to have the results of the study done in 2017 we started asking to region immediately to share with us the results. What happened is that they were not providing us the results. So we were forced to have the help of a lawyer and to ask -to have a trip law- I don’t have the English translation for this. We needed to go to a higher level, and we won this case. And they provided us this results in May this year. And these are not very good results. And so we are now studying them with experts and enrolling experts in order to find out the risk that is associated with the results that we are seeing and that we find and we have received. On the other end we are also obviously involved in the trial against the company, because in the meantime there was a trial that was initiated against the managers that were managing the company that caused this disaster. We are involved as civil parties so we are only providing our help to the institute in order to find out the truth and in order to have these people so they get people paid for what was done. And obviously the main problem is the soil and the groundwater is still fully contaminated and so everything is now, lets say, flushing and going into the adriatic sea, so, near venice because they’re either is let's say receiving the water is nowis then going into the Adriatic sea for example they found out very high levels of PFAS in the fish. So if unfortunately we still know that there are today no satisfying technologies in order to destroy these compounds because they are very strong, the bond that is within carbon and fluoride is very strong and in order to be destroyed it needs temperatures that are higher than one thousand degrees centigrade. At least the old soil should be kept somewhere and waiting to have new technologies in the future in order to destroy them it seems for example that there are some bacteria that can do this kind of or some vegetables that can destroy this bond, but these are still experimental technologies. But, again keeping all this soil there is continuing to -it means that it is continuing to since this soil is in contact with the groundwater is continuing to contaminate the water, the water is then contaminating the rivers, the water of the rivers is then used in the in order to give water to the vegetables ETC. Something needs to be done and has not been done yet on this level and moreover we found out that for example all the filters that are used in order 4 �to to lower down the levels of PFAS in the aqueducts are filters that are made by GAC so they are then reutilized, lets say, reused. So the process, the technology that is used in order to be able to use again the compounds that are in the filters is to, lets say, eat them, the direct result of these is that the compounds that are lets say, absorbed into these filters. When they are coming to higher temperatures, they are simply passing into the air they are not so the bond between carbon and fluoride is not broken, because it needs very high temperature and immediate high temperature. Because if you are heating it very slowly, these filters, what happens is that the compounds simply is detached from the filter and then it goes into the air, so,we have another level of contamination is coming from the air because they are trying to do this to the filters that are used for the aqueducts, and so, everyday we are discovering new things what we are doing now is to so- , i'm not using aqueduct water anymore unless for doing shower and, i'm not- let's say, i'm not cultivating anything in my garden i'm not even giving this kind of water to my dog. DD: Mhm LF: I had a german shepherd in the past, at the age of nine, she died full of cancers and we were not aware why she was having these very terrible cancers everywhere, because she was relatively young and when I brought her to the - Yesterday where did I oh- to the doctor we say. DD: To the Vet? LF: Yes, to the vet he told me that there were a lot of dogs in the same situation and I immediately I remember perfectly what he told me, It is the water. And I was not aware at the moment, I discovered some months later what was happening so my dog now is drinking [chuckles] bottled water and to cook also I am cooking- cooking the pasta with bottled water. We are working a lot, too much I would say and doing a lot of meetings because now we are a very big group, we have a web page, we have a facebook page, we are dividing the things between each other on the basis of what- the time one can- yes give and also the attitude and also the job that we are doing, and, so for example I am working in the field of clinical trials and so at this moment we are working a lot to have new studies done and clinical studies done in our area in order to find out for example the relationships within PFAS and Covid-19 because there are studie that were done early this year in our region that show we have a higher mortality rate and we need to discover if this higher mortality was due to the fact that have a lower way to respond to this virus or because it’s we are having more people that are sick. On the other end we need to understand if the current vaccination program is working with us because the rest are just saying that PFAS contaminated people are not having the expected vaccine response and so then to keep the level in people that are supposed to process sometimes very low and so we are working also in order to find out to do this new study in order to, yes, see what is the best for us. We are trying to work with the institutions, but it's very difficult because 5 �as said, unfortunately they are linked to the very beginning of what happened because they are having big responsibilities for the fact of not informing us in time for years. So they are civil parties also in the trial against mitini but you know, we are not having the same willingness to have the truth really discovered and it's clear from some decisions for example, there is this screening that is done on the population, it was initially only done on people born from 2002 until 1951 so all other ages were not included. We went to do a fight in order to have at least some classes of children entered but only few of them actually did it so less than I would say 130, 120 children under than 2002 were able to do it so. For example, I have three children and only my elder daughter were able to do this when she was ten, now she is nearly twelve and the other two, were not tested, yet, even if this was a program obviously because we had covid pandemic in the meantime that blocked everything and so this is what we are doing the main struggle , I don't know if you will be having some time to visit our website, it is www.MammaNOPFAS.org and you will find a lot of information there about our story and what we are doing and the main struggle is for me, in this moment, is to find the time. The time needed to do everything we have a lot of journalists which are calling us, cryptographers, researchers, people that are willing to speak with us, to discuss the kind of solution, to do new studies, to propose things, and we need to speak with them and to speak with each other to decide what to do, and to inform other people, to keep the webpage open, to also to speak with other people in the world or all the way. In Europe in order to share information, for example we are in contact with the Netherlands people and the Swedish people that are impacted by PFAS contamination, so it's very useful when we are sharing information like this. And it may be a struggle this time but I am doing this- I started to do this mainly, for my kids in order to protect them and what is happening now is that I am using a lot of time instead of being with my kids I am being with the PFAS problem and so, yes it's not easy. DD: Yeah, I imagine not. You kind of started to answer this question already but what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward from this point in time? LF: Well, I know from the studies that are published, so the scientific studies which are the main problems associated with the PFAS contamination and I also had problems during pregnancies, my first two kids were low birth weight, and no one was understanding why I was having this kind of problems during pregnancies. I was not a smoker, I was healthy, so it was strange, they were not having explanations, they were asking me why- if I- to find out this sort of familiarity for other- for this kind of situation and then the third pregnancy they suggested I take some drugs and they were helping and then I understood why, because I took aspirin, and I found out later that aspirin is able to mitigate the effects of PFAS settled in the, let's say at times at the level of the circulatory system. I have already had one of the effects and my kids also. Im not having, my son is having the problem of growth I don't know if this is still related to the fact that he was born very small so- or if there is a direct or an indirect effect of PFAS, I'm trying to involve other 6 �researchers in order to understand if other kids are having the same issue. And, obviously I am worried a lot for the future because these kinds of compounds are still there in their blood they are not having a lot of them in the blood compared to other people living in our area but it's enough to create damage. So, I'm trying to do my best in order to get them the best possible- the best possible, let’s say food, water and it's a struggle because when I go to the supermarket I always read everything [chuckles] in order to be sure that this was not cultivated here, and for example eggs, the most contaminated things and so I'm looking in order to find out eggs that are not coming from this area and vegetables and fruit and so on everything and the water as I said is bottled water, it bottles up in glasses. I hope that we will not have any issue- that it will be enough not to have other issues other than the ones that we have already in the past, but we have a lot of people here that are having problems and those are the class there near the area of the company of where there are a lot of women with breast cancer- a lot, and there is a big hospital that only treats breast cancer there and no one is having the question why. Why here so many women with this kind of cancer? Also here I have a friend, a lot of friends that are here and I am lucky because I am not from - so, I was not born here, I was born fifteen kilometers far from here but this area- that area is by another aqueduct so its safe at least, in terms of water. I was living here since 2007 and I discovered the problem ten years later, but people that were living here, and were born here and for example people that were using the groundwater also to drink it were having levels of this contamination had already had problems. So I'm worried obviously but I’m doing what I can in order to prevent anything else. DD: Which sounds like a lot, sounds like you’re doing a lot. LF: I hope. DD: Before we wrap up today, is there anything else you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on, or anything you’d like to go back to, or say more about? LF: Yes, what is strange to me is that when we started to understand the issue and I told you that I'm working on creating it, i'm used to searching for scientific documents or papers and so on I find out there were a lot of studies already done on this compound after the compound disaster in the middle aravali. What happened is that all these studies were not considered for us. So, what I mean is that it's said that we are a different kind of humans, because we have to demonstrate that this is also happening here. It's not enough to have that kind of disaster, here even if we are having higher levels in our blood of this compound we still need in order for the trial against mitini to demonstrate that this is causing something to us. Instead the problem is that having this compound in our blood after all the studies that have already been done demonstrating the risk that is associated in terms of a lot of diseases that are caused, is itself a legion. We should not demonstrate anything else we have already, a lot of studies that were already done here that were done all over the world. 7 �Why we cannot learn from past mistakes? Why we have to still demonstrate that they cause something to us, the fact itself of having them in the blood is the damage, is the big damage for us, because it is a big question mark on our future. We don't know what will happen but something will happen. This is the problem, and this something that will happen was done without anyone asking the consent so, it's like being in a big clinical trial without having signed a consent because someone decided for us that this water was safe without informing us, so they should have told us, okay, we discovered- at least when they discovered- we discovered this and that, so, the information that we have so far is coming from studies that were conducted in ohio because they were available and we are saying, we are not having a lot of information to tell you that it is safe or not but at least we are informing you then you can decide what to do. 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0022 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Facciolo, Laura Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-07-21 Title A name given to the resource Laura Facciolo, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Laura Facciolo has lived all her life in the Veneto region of Italy. In this interview, Laura discusses the contamination of Garda Lake, the second-largest aquifer in Europe, as well as other fresh water sources in Italy. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d30f97e1f44a54e1601a1ffe84b2ebc.mp4 7dd9ba4f4d9722e9e80bd1d8786fd6f4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/568f11e547158a7bf9133698f6b2da54.pdf 82fe6913ea7db9c34dfb94c5eac7650d PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Ocean Priselac Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: 15 July, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, July 15th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Ocean Priselac. Hi Ocean! OP: Hey, what’s up? [chuckles] DD: Not too much. Could you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live? OP: Well, I was born in Pikeville, Kentucky, uh my dad’s retired air force so I’ve lived in a lot of places, and right now I’m in Carolina Beach, North Carolina. I was living in Wilmington when we heard about the PFAS (Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances). DD: And how long have you been in Carolina Beach? OP: About a year. I moved onto my boat right before the pandemic hit. DD: Oh, wow! [chuckles] OP: Yeah, I bought a boat and then moved onto it after selling everything and I’m like. ”Oh my gosh, how am I gonna pay for all this?” [both chuckle] Cause my business shut downDD: Yeah. OP: Right away, yeah. DD: Wow, that’sOP: Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] DD: That’s something. OP: Kind of like, “Oh my god,” yeah [chuckles] soDD: Well, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? OP: Yeah, I remember, um, it’s probably been about three years, I think since the cover-up was uncovered, as we like to say. We’d seen something, I want to say I was watching TV, and one of the professors from UNCW (University of North Carolina-Wilmington) was on there, and he was talking about PFAS and how he was giving- he was stuck giving his cat the water from Cape Fear Public Utility Authority, and um, I was like, “Oh my god,” you know. He was talking about 1 �this cancer chemical that a company was allowed to dump in our water, in our drinking water source, which is the Cape Fear River, and so I immediately, like, stopped giving my pets water. I’d already had a bunch of dead pets by then, they all- it was all kidney disorders and liver failure, and we know that PFAS has got this, like, a cancer-causing chemical, and an endocrine disruptor, as well. So I was like, “Oh my gosh,” and I was operating a pet sitting company at the time, which I still do, and I started taking- I started educating, like, my clients about the dangers of the water and our pets, and those who- you know, a lot of them didn’t believe it, so I just started taking, like, bottled water to pets just free of charge cause I just- I couldn’t, like, give them that water anymore. And then we all started going to meetings around town about this whole thing and learning about it and, you know, and my thought was, like, well, this company should not be allowed to do this, and, you know, we need to shut- they need to stop. I thought it was gonna be right-hooked, it was gonna be that simple. And it was not. And so just- that all kind of went on, and I went to a lot of the meetings, and then I finally just kind of quit. But I was the- I had a couple of red-eared slider turtles at the time, and I was even changing out their tank with bottled water. I didn’t want them living in the cancer water. And then, you know, fast forward, I went to, um, oh man, I can’t remember the name, it was one of the first small, short, independent films about West Parker, West Virginia. It wasn’t- I don’t think it was the devil- no, I can’t remember which one, but I remember watching that film, and, you know, there’s all the deformities of people in that town, cause that’s where DuPont had started. During this, we found out about- and this man in the movie had sold all his cattle- or his land, you know, to DuPont, and he had cattle on the land. Well, they all died and they all had these lesions on their legs, like, these brown lesions, and I almost threw up in the theater because I’d seen- that lesion was on one of my cats, on a lot of the brown and white dogs I take care of, they all have the same lesion on their tails, just like the cows had on one of their legs, and I was like, “Holy cow this is- it’s just crazy,” um and I just- I was just like, “This is unreal.” I’ve got a lot of footage of that, I’ve taken a lot of film of pets I’ve taken care of, watching their decline and stuff, and then, like, on Twitter, you know, all this stuff started with Chemours cause, you know, they changed the chemical makeup of the GenX, that’s what we were being served in Wilmington. And so, you know, we did a lot of research on all that, and we tried to get out there to, like, try shut them down, kind of like a dream piece kind of thing, but, yeah. They were sending the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) to one of our guys’ houses, I mean it has just been insane. And there had been a car following me for a little bit. It was really- just all this crazy stuff that you’d see in a movie, maybe. But- and that’s kind of- it’s just been really bizarre, and it’s just- the white-collar crime, I- it just blows me away that they can get away with doing this worldwide, you know, poisoning people’s drinking water. Because we know it’s going on in a small town somewhere, um, in Am- not in Amsterdam, somewhere near- I can’t remember where, a little dutch town. And it’s kind of like, you know, Wilmington has let these guys just kind of be on their own and self-police, which doesn't make sense to me cause we still find- you know, they’re finding it and I’m part of the NC (North Carolina) State testing, and I’ve got a ton of that stuff. My friend Gaten and I have some of the highest concentrations in our blood from those tests. And we have high rates of thyroid cancer in the area, that’s just really crazy, um, but, you know, 2 �in the meantime I’ve lost 12 pets to endocrine disorders, and I’ve lot- watched a lot of my clients’ pets die from it, you know, it’s just- in humans, we have all different kinds of cancers and stuff. I mean, there’s - and we’ve got an attorney out of Colorado, but really not getting anywhere with that cause North Carolina keeps doing something to keep us from suing Chemours, so that’s kind of where we are, you know, and I don’t kn- that’s kind of a fast rundown of everything. That’s kind of compressed into one. DD: Yeah. What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? OP: Um, just that- what I see happening, pretty much, is, like, these guys get to poison everyone and then they get to come up with, like, a way to fix it, like Dupont making filters now for water, and then Big Pharma is in the mix with their drugs. I kind of look at it as a big conspiracy in a way. It’s kind of like h- it’s greed. It’s just flat out greed and I, I fear that- I mean it’s just gone too far. The molecules just stick to everything. We can never get it out of the water. The water will never be clean. That’s probably my biggest concern. And it’s in the air, it’s in our fruits and vegetables, it’s everywhere. Um, it’s almost like something planned, you know, and I don’t know. Maybe it was, who knows? Or maybe they were just like, “Oh whatever we can just dump this crap in the water.” It’d gone on 30 years before we found out the truth, so- I mean it’s gross, it’s disgusting that this is allowed to go on, you know, soDD: So, what are you doing for water now? Are you still doing the bottled water for yourself and the animals? OP: I am, I mean, down here in Carolina Beach the water isn’t affected with all that, but I’m still in the habit of buying bottled water, and I’ve set up some of my, like, film clients with water service and stuff and- I, I am going around- there are more people, now, with the RO (Reverse Osmosis) filters under the sinks, which is great to see. More people are taking it seriously, but, yeah, we’re still, you know, doing bottled on the boat. I don’t know that I could really install an RO- Maybe I could, but I’m gonna be out and about so- [chuckles] you know. DD: Yeah OP: So- [chuckles] DD: Yeah, I don’t know if you could do that on a boat. [both chuckle] OP: I probably could but I don’t think I need to. [chuckles] DD: Well, uh, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on today or anything you’d like to go back to? You mentioned that you gave kind of the quick version, is there anything you want to unpack more? OP: Well, I kind of think that’s probably about it, besides the political group that I had mentioned with their agenda. It’s, like, I- they just- I dunno, it’s, you know, they kind of want to run the show and not let all of us do stuff, so I’m pretty much underground anymore with what I do. I’m not really involved with a lot of them anymore. It just left a bad taste in my mouth. You 3 �know, I don’t- I just- I guess I’m- I think that we should all be on the same page and we’re not. You know, they- it’s just - it’s power, you know, they want power. I don’t really care about power, I want to stop Chemours. I mean, I want this dumping to stop, and I’m the one the attorney has chosen to, like, take the stand and go against them, whenever- if we ever get to court with this, cause I’m probably the most pissed off out of the bunch, you know. And I will say one more thing: I think that the only real way to put a stop to any of this is, I mean we have to quit going to all the restaurants in town, I mean, yeah, it’s - because they’re all serving the water, and they-it’s all, you know, the food, everything, the only thing to do is to hit them in the pocketbook, but the town makes it so- like Wilmington, they’ve put it under the rug cause of tourism dollars. Again, it all comes down to greed. The town just doesn’t want to acknowledge the truth. Cause I’ve been blocked by the Chamber of Commerce for speaking out, you know. I think I’ve been blocked by damn near all of them for telling the truth, but we have to. But, you know, until people stop supporting it and stop- and, I mean, we can’t even stop the water company here in, you know, Wilmington. Um, they raised rates, and now they want the town- the people to pay for filtration, you know, and I’m like, “No, Chemours needs to pay for all that,” you know, or mu- I don’t know it just pisses me off. That’s about all I can say. DD: Why do you think you are the most angry? You said you think you might be. OP: Well, I mean the one who kind of speaks out, out of our little group, who is, um, involthere’s maybe 5 of us in the lawsuit, and I’m probably the one- I’m more of a realist, you know, it just makes me mad these guys can just get away with this and, you know, a lot of people are just kind of like, “Well, you know, what can we do,” you know, and it’s like, “We gotta fight it,” but until we can all be, like, on the same page and fight these guys, it’s- they’re just gonna keep doing what they’re doing, you know, I don’t know. [chuckles] I mean, that’s about it. DD: Well, thank you so much, Ocean, for taking the time to share your story today. OP: For sure, thanks for meeting up with me, I appreciate it. DD: I’m so glad we could. OP: Yeah. 4 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0021 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Priselac, Ocean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-07-15 Title A name given to the resource Ocean Priselac, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Ocean Priselac grew up in a military family and has lived in many locations across the United States, including Wilmington and Carolina Beach, North Carolina. In this interview, Ocean discusses her experiences and exposures to PFAS contamination and its impact particularly on her pets. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abb100d30c73b82a187bbf4d334e65cf.mp4 b9bb1b7b937a5a4448554a0f168554ef https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04b07625422151fcecd8a258aca09db3.pdf b50f9ed446a5081bcadcc81b13b86ef6 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Cathy Wusterbarth Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: September 22, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today July 13th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Cathy Wusterbarth. Hi Cathy. CW: Hi Dani! DD: Cathy, can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live? CW: Sure! I’m from Oscoda, Michigan which is in Northeast Michigan. We’re on Lake Huron and it is a coastal tourist town, and it has a former work smith airport base in the area which was decommissioned in 1993. So, I’m born and raised here. I did move away for about 20 years, went to North Carolina. But now I’m back and this is where my heart and soul is. DD: Can you tell me, Cathy, a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? CW: Well, Dani, that's a tough question [chuckles] because there are so many different experiences I've had since 2016, when I first heard the word or acronym PFAS in our community. We were told that there were community members or residents that were sent a notice that said that they couldn’t – they shouldn't drink their well water. So the state of Michigan held some town halls so that they could educate the community on, first of all, what are PFAS? Not many people know what they are until they are told they have it in their water or it's you know, in their bodies. So, the town halls were created, and we had lots of community members that, that came and had lots of questions, and some were angry because they were unknowingly contaminated with these substances. So, so, I managed to just listen and hear what the concerns were of the community members. I do believe that I was exposed to PFAS while I was growing up in Oscoda this picture that is behind me is an image from the Lake that I was a lifeguard on for three years. And so, we spent lots of time in the water when I was in my, you know, teenage years. And about five years later, I developed breast cancer and an immunological disease, Rheumatoid arthritis, which could possibly be linked to my exposure to PFAS all those years, and possibly it was in our drinking water source for our community, because the Air Force used the PFAS in their firefighting foam. So, [chuckles] that's sort of the beginning of my involvement with PFAS. When the community had questions and they wanted action, of course, because they wanted these things cleaned up and they didn't want to be exposed to PFAS anymore, we looked to the state. We looked, of course, to the polluter, the Air Force, and had some expectations that they clean it up and maybe test us – test our bodies to see if we had PFAS in them. None of those things have really happened, and that was in 2016. So now we're in 2021, and we've had very little remediation or cleanup of these toxic plumes that are going into our surface water, into our 1 �groundwater, and into the drinking water supply for hundreds of thousands of people in Michigan on Lake Huron. So, we created an action group called Now Need Our Water, and it's comprised of community members, scientists, activists. So, now I'm an activist. Never been one before, but they're called accidental activists. So, that's what I am [chuckles]. We just, we work with legislators, the scientists, the Air Force, the state, the other communities, you know. We've, we’ve joined forces with other impacted communities around the state, around the US and around the world, really. Because PFAS are everywhere, and we will have to deal with them. Everyone will have to deal with them eventually, even though they don't know they're necessarily being exposed. They're produced in such mass quantity and put in so many things that were all being impacted. So that's, that’s just the start of the things that – my experiences with PFAS. We created a 501C3 called Oscoda Citizens for Clean Water, so that we could raise funds and use those for edu[coughs] education, excuse me, and just making sure that everyone knows about the issues. One question I was going to ask you, Dani, was that they’re – we're creating a video, right? Oh gosh. A video so that people can watch this in the future. But we did have a journalist. Her name is a Sara Ganim. She’s a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. She came to Oscoda to hear about our story. She was going to write a little story about what was going on with PFAS. Then she came to one of our meetings with the Air Force, and she saw what was happening and how they were treating us and the – the lack of action that was occurring, and she said to herself, this story needs to be told. So, she produced a movie called No Defense. I can't remember the tagline, but it's like the military's war on water or something like that. But she created this movie and it's been released. But it's about Oscoda and Wurtsmith Air Force Base and the contamination that's occurred from this base. And there are, there are stories told in the movie that are [nervously chuckles] very sad. So, there were many military families that were exposed to these chemicals, of course, because it was in the groundwater [chuckles] underneath their bases. One of the impacted veterans was Craig Meiner. He had a son, Mitchell, who was born in Oscoda at the base hospital. And, subsequently, they found out that he had been affected in Utero by the multiple contaminants, including PFAS. And so, he was severely disabled and just recently passed away. So, Mitchell is a special person for us in [pause], in that we're fighting so that more children are not affected by these chemicals. But Craig continued, Craig and his family continue to work on this cause, and we're hoping that the movie itself will be something that people can look at and learn more about, especially if they’re, they learn about PFAS in their communities. [chuckles] The Meiners are special people. DD: So, you mentioned that you have become an accidental activist. CW: Mhm. DD: Can you tell me more about that? Either how that changed your life or the kinds of things that you've been doing because of coming an accidental activist? CW: [chuckles] Yeah. I started looking into the concerns of my community related to PFAS, because, you know, I just want the best for Oscoda. Again, it's close to my heart, and I think it's a real gem, actually in our state. So, just –I was actually running for office in our community, just 2 �a local elected office. I didn't actually win that election, but it was a blessing in disguise because I probably wouldn't have been able to be an activist in this issue had I won. So, so, I moved my efforts to this issue for our community. So, we, again, I had no activism experience. I didn't know where to turn, or who to ask or who to trust. And over the years have learned, that there are people that you can rely on that are experiencing the same things. So, we have created coalitions and alliances and action networks and all sorts of groups where we can, you know have more power in numbers. So, I've learned a lot. We've met with the activists related to the PBB crisis in Michigan. So, we had a – there was a conference I think it was called PBB to PFAS. So those, those activists were rea helpful in letting us know what their experiences were. It accidentally came about. I'm not an environmentalist. I don’t, you know, I just want the best for my community. And I want these plumes of PFAS that are in our water to be cleaned up. I think it seems pretty simple. DD: Yeah, it does, doesn't it? [chuckles] What is the status of things in Oscoda right now? You mentioned that not a lot of progress has been made? CW: Right. So, in the, let's see... It was reported, I think, in the, in the, the early 2000s that we had these PFAS clones in our groundwater. And so, they implemented a – what's called a filtration system. Granular activated carbon filtration system was placed into one of the most highly contaminated areas on the site. And so, that was implemented in 2013. And they added another filtration system in 2018, maybe 19. So that's two, right, two systems. We need 18 systems. So, we haven't made much progress. And actually, it's been about nine or ten years. Well, no, it's eleven now. The years just keep [both laughing] flying by. So, eleven years now, when we have two filtration systems, we estimate, or it has been estimated that we need about $280,000,000 to address just this one military site. So, you can see why it's been such a problem for the Department of Defense. If they start, and they told us this, if they start with their remediation and with their actions here, they have to be replicated at all of those other military sites. And now we're working on 600 plus sites that have been identified. DD: So, it seems like your situation, Oscoda situation, because of its connection with the former military base, is, is unique or is complicated in that, say, other locations are not. Is that fair to say? CW: No that, that the firefighting foam, the AFFF foam was used, actually at all military bases. So, it's in the ground of ground and groundwater around most military bases. They used it without hesitation, in excess. They used it for practice. They used it to play in. They thought they had foam parties. It's just unbelievable. And unfortunately, the companies that produce this or created these chemicals, knew that they were dangerous and did not stop creating them or selling them. So – so here we are, 4700 PFAS later. So, that's how many there are. DD: What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? 3 �CW: Well, I think, like I said, because it's so pervasive in all of our products. It's being used in so many products. And it's so effective. You know, have probably used a Teflon Tan in your life and um, that clothing where the water just like repels. That's great, because you don't get wet! So, what's scary is that it's so effective and we're so attached to using it and so used to using it that we're not going to be able to stop using it because we like it so much. We'll have to be the industry or, you know, companies will have to be forced to stop using it because we are not going to voluntarily do that because we're so used to it. We don't want grease all over our car when we get our fast-food, you know, container and we set it on, we don't want grease, right? So, they fix that for us by using PFAS. So, the industry will have to, it will have to be illegal to use these products. And it's scary to think about that because you just follow the money and that money [chuckles], they're not going to make any money doing that or they'll lose money. DD: Yeah, I've heard a lot lately about how they're finding replacements, but the replacements are also not great. CW: Right, they unfortunately – they're introduced as, you know, there's these long chains. I'm not a scientist. These long chains PFAS. And the short chains and the short chains were initially introduced as a safer alternative, but – but, they're not. They have health effects just like the long chains and we should be very concerned about their use also. DD: Yeah. Before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't touched on or anything you would want to go back to and say more about? CW: Oh, yes. One of the initiatives or priorities that I personally have is ensuring that PFAS blood testing is available for anyone who wants it. Right now, you are hard pressed to be able to find a physician that will order a PFAS testing, and a lab that will test it. And you certainly aren't going to find an insurance company who's going to pay for it. So, there are rare instances where people are getting their blood tested, maybe for a lawsuit or because they just took on the costs, you know, themselves $900 for testing of about 14 PFAS. So, it's very, very expensive. But these tests should be created and encouraged for anyone in an affected area such as ours. So, we are working, you know – the PFAS leadership throughout the US are working on with the National Academy of Sciences on their guidance to physicians on PFAS. So, I just encourage people, if they want to know what's going on in their body related to this contamination, then they need to ask their physicians about it. They need to get their physicians educated and know that we have a right to know what is in our body and the contaminants that we've been exposed to. DD: That sounds like really important work. [pause] How is it going? CW: [chuckles] Well, six years, I have piles of papers everywhere, and I hold a full-time job. So, you know I, I actually am, I do a community work also unrelated to PFAS. So, I want to be able to contribute, and it – it's just so complex. And we're having such resistance, on so many levels that it can be frustrating and there's some burnout. So, we, we do try to take a break sometimes 4 �and just make sure that we're taking care of ourselves so that, you know, we can fight the good fight. DD: Yeah. What are some of the complexities that you're running into? CW: Well, like I think I said about money, you got to follow the money. So, when you have the Air Force saying, “okay, we need more money”. And then you have the Congress saying, “you just need to tell us how much money that you need”, and they're pointing fingers at each other like you didn't tell us. And it's – it's just amazing at that level of just denial, really, [chuckles] I think on all parties just denying that there's an issue and that these monies need to be diverted to keep people safe, their health safe. So, I find that very complex. Why this would be denied that this issue exists when it's clear [chuckles] from the foam in this picture behind me, that there's a problem. This is not, this is not natural foam. So, there’s just – that part is complex. The chemicals themselves are very complex. We're continuing to study the effects of those, oh gosh, [pause] getting the word out. As someone who doesn't do this full time, I don't work with an environmental group. I'm not paid to do any of this work. So, how to find the time to do these things and then developing the relationships with the people that can help you. So, I can say as a person, I've definitely grown and learned a lot, since I've done this, there are some benefits in terms of my personal growth in learning how things work. So, I've learned a lot, but it's unfortunate it had to be under these circumstances. But – so, yeah, developing the relationships, understanding the issues, just figuring out how to get around the roadblocks, you know, maintaining your sanity. [chuckles] Things that are complex. DD: Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we didn't touch on or anything else that you wanted to go back to? CW: Nope. I do appreciate your – this project's, effort to get our stories out because people do as you can see. I could just talk and talk and talk [chuckles] about this, but I really appreciate you trying to get the stories out there so that anyone who's willing to listen can hear what really is happening. DD: Well, thank you for taking the time to do this. I know you’re very busy and I appreciate you taking the time to share your story today. CW: Sure. Thank you, Dani. 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0020 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wusterbar, Cathy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-07-13 Title A name given to the resource Cathy Wusterbarth, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Cathy Wustarbarth is from Oscoda, Michigan, on the coast of Lake Huron. In this interview, Cathy discusses her exposure to PFAS and its impact on her health. Wusterbarth has also been actively involved with the Oscoda Citizens for Clean Water, advocating for education and awareness about the issue. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/333878650df1713a98e60a16fc187dd7.mp4 5efafdf197a5b009cf009e22f4641453 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e6649c770d20570bf2c1db8567cc9dd.pdf 94164b265ecfe1d51f5225df0120f49e PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Garret Ellison Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: June 29, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, June 29th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Garret Ellison. Hi, Garret! GE: Hi, Dani. DD: Garret, can you tell me where you are from and where you currently live? GE: Well, I’m, [chuckles], I guess I’m from Traverse City. I grew up and went to school in Traverse City. Graduated high school up there in 2001 and then, I went to the community college there at [MC?] and started a journalism career — or studying journalism brought me to Central Michigan where I got a bachelor’s degree and I now work for MLive as the Statewide Environmental Reporter. I’ve done that since 2015-2014 and I currently live in Kalamazoo. I’ve bounced around — Traverse City, Mount Pleasant, Grand Rapids. I did a lot — a lot of the stuff we’re going to talk about today happened when I live in the Grand Rapids-Kent County area. DD: And how long have you been in Kalamazoo? GE: Since 2019. I moved down here to be closer to my daughter who moved away with my ex in 2018. So, [chuckles] I’ll get into some of that because it ties into the story a little bit. DD: Alright, let’s just get rolling then. Can you please tell me a story about your experience with PFAS [per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances] or PFAS in your community? GE: Sure, I guess what I can tell you is a little bit about the — the best story that I have to tell is the way the news broke around the Wolverine Worldwide contamination in the RockfordBelmont area and I think the place to begin is with an email that I got I — I pulled it up. So, it was July 19, yep, 2017, and I was in Alabaster Township over on the sunrise side of the state — near Tawas. Just south of Tawas. At what would be — would’ve been my father and mother in-laws’ bedroom where I was working— you know had I gotten married to my ex, my daughter’s mother. So, we were up visiting during the week, and I was working, you know, remotely and they were, you know, my daughter was little over 1 years old at the time. She’s still pretty little. And so, we were up near — Haley is her — my ex’s name and my daughter’s name is Olive. And so, we were up with Haley’s parents, and I got an email from a woman named Lynn McIntosh. And her email is lmarie003, right, and I didn’t understand it at the time but the 003 is sort of a cute James Bond reference [laughs] — like she’s [Agent 003?]. 1 �DD: [laughs] GE: And she said she had read a lot of articles that I had written, and she follows the PFAS issue pretty closely and she wanted to tell me a possible lead on a story about related to PFOS [perand polyfluoroalkyl substances] sources in Northern Kent County other than Plainfield Township. And so, at this point, I had written fairly extensively about Wurtsmith Air Force Base in Oscoda which like is the first place in Michigan that PFAS had ever been discovered. And through that reporting, I had learned that the chemicals were in the township municipal water supply in Plainfield at sort of moderate levels. I think were — nothing that really exceeded the EPA’s 70 parts per trillion health advisory level, but nevertheless, sort of concerning. So, I had written in 2016 an article about that, right so, Plainfield, Ann Arbor, detection of these chemicals in public drinking water— and it was some of the first reporting in Michigan about PFAS and drinking water. So it was real early — you know there was a reaction to it, but it wasn’t like, you know, had you written that story now, people would — “oh, no” — they’d really go nuts. People didn’t quite understand it then. So, I got this email from a lady named Lynn talking about possible sources in Kent County — Northern Kent County and it really piqued my interest because nobody knew why it was getting into Plainfield Township’s water. There was a suspicion that it was a [super fun side?] on the East Beltline but hadn’t been determined yet. And there was suspicion that it could from a gravel pit on the other side of the — the Grand River which subsequently would discover was a Wolverine dump site. But none of this had been discovered yet. And so, Lynn McIntosh asked to meet. And so — I didn’t get back to her right away. [laughs] I got back to her few days later on the 21st. And I said — I apologized for — the delay — sometimes it takes me a few days, you know, — just to — I get emails from lots of different people, and you’ve got to decide, do I respond to this person? Because everybody promises they’ve got a story, and they’ve got a big scoop. And it’s like, some of them are just cranks. And you just don’t — you just don’t want to — want to give them a reply because then you get pulled in. DD: [um-hum] GE: But Lynn had enough detail. And she mentioned something — she mentioned something in her email — or emails — about a tannery. And that — triggered something in my mind because — I had moved to Sparta in October 2016 from Grand Rapids with my, you know, ex and our — our infant daughter. Sparta, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Sparta, but it’s not — there’s not a lot to do there. [chuckles] DD: [chuckles] 2 �GE: But it’s close to Rockford, you know, it’s, you know, a 5-10 minute drive. So, in the evenings, we would go to Rockford and we would walk the White Pine trail with Olive in the stroller. And, you know, it’s kind of nice downtown, and there’s the dam. And just, you know, if you’re going to go for a stroll with a kid, it’s a — it’s a more desirable place to do that. And so, we’ve been walking the white pine trails a few times, and we’re walking past this big, empty property north of downtown Rockford and I keep looking at it like, why is there a fence here? What is this? I just didn’t know what the property used to be. But it looked like a pollution site, right? I’ve been doing environmental stuff for a while, and I was kind of like, [hmmm] something’s going on here. This is prime real-estate downtown. It would be built on if there wasn’t some sort of contamination error issue going on here. So, I remember flagging down a police officer, one of the bike cops that just sort of [roams around?], and I was like “Hey is there something wrong with that property?”. And I got a “Oh, no —no I don’t know anything about it, you know”. And I’m like, “you don’t know anything about that property, you know, mister police officer who live in Rockford and works in Rockford and this is downtown Rockford?” [mimics garbled response from police officer] DD: [chuckles] GE: So, I had kind of been like [huh]. Through this email with Lynn, I learned that this was the Wolverine Worldwide tannery. And — it — it just sort of clicked that — that could be interesting. And so, I agreed to meet Lynn a few days later and we walked — we walked from the Rockford Dam up to — a spot on the river right next to where the foot depot is, right. So, there is the existing building on the tannery site — the only thing that is left. And it used to be the manufacturing facility itself, but now it’s just a shoe store. DD: [um-hum] And so, Lynn’s kind of like, you’ve got to see this. There’s still a ton of leather and stuff leftover from the tannery itself right here in the riverbank. And I’m like, really? And so, we push all this brush aside on the riverbank, it was pretty overgrown at the time, I mean you walked the trail and could see the river but it’s not like it is now after the EPA clean up, where, you know, it’s been — all that underbrush and vegetation has been removed. So, we push aside this — all this vegetation and just look down and it’s just leather litter. It’s — it’s — like old scraps of the leather, the trimmings, right, from the manufacturing process. And — and — pieces of shoe, rubber soles — rubber shoe soles. And it was obvious right? Anybody could’ve figured it out. I mean — there was even a— a— a sole, a full rubber sole of a shoe that said hush puppies on it. [laughs] So — I mean it’s like, huh. DD: Yeah. GE: So, I took a bunch of pictures of this, and immediately I’m like, well, if a company is going to leave this here, right here on the riverbank for anyone to find, it’s got their name on it — what else have they left, you know? So, everything was sort of [hmm] — this is —Lynn McIntosh is 3 �definitely not just a crank or someone who was just emailing me, right? There’s something here for sure. So, I started to really get into, alright, what’s going on? And so, she shows me the leather scraps — which those photos really caught people’s attention, right? Just that — the idea that this stuff is still littering the river and it has the company’s name on it and it’s been there for years. And it’s been there for so long that like, it had become a part of the riverbank. Like trees had grown up around it. Big trees. And you know, to hear Lynn tell it, it was just the tip of the iceberg. You know, I mean like, the whole riverbank was made of leather, more or less, you know, in fact there’s and island on the river that they call the “Island of the Lost Soles”. DD: [chuckles] GE: You know, because it was supposedly built on leather trimmings, and leather hides and stuff that hadn’t been, you know, used as infill. DD: Wow. GE: So, [sighs] so she — you know I go over to Lynn’s house, and she drops theses huge binders of like, you know, paperwork, old reports [foil materials?], emails, her own sort of, you know, sketches and drawings like her decade of —near decade work on the tannery and the contamination issue there. And you know, it was like, it was overwhelming — like oh man. [laughs] And so, I started to go through it and talk to her and sort of understand what the concern was which ended up being they put a ton of scotch guard on that leather and — they had — you know her group, CCRR, [Concerned Citizens for Responsible Redevelopment], was initially the “R”, but they changed it to be “remediation” later on — you know had learned about all the scotch guard use and was arguing with Wolverine to try to get them to do more with the remediation at the tannery site. And they were having all kinds of problems because there was a guy at Michigan Department of Environmental Quality who was real friendly to Wolverine, and you know, he just didn’t take them seriously at all and didn’t like Lynn clearly at all. She seemed to have rubbed him the wrong way. [sighs] And so, we start to scope out a story about, you know, this issue with the PFAS in the river. It had been found with some surface water testing a few years prior that’s they knew for sure it was there — and like look at all this, I mean the leather scraps, and the river, and the tannery, and the fish was the first story that we worked on. And that was — I think we finally got that ready to go in late August. Let me Google the date. [typing sounds] August 23, 2017, right. So, it was ready to go about a week or so before that, but the Corner Bar in Rockford caught fire on like, the day that we were going to publish this story. And so, we held on to it. To not, I mean —sort of for us — just community sensitivity reasons. I mean it was like, okay, we’re not gonna — [laughs] the community of Rockford is mourning the loss of an institution right now., we’re not going to just the same day put this story out there about how there’s this big pollution problem in the river right downtown. I mean, it’s there, it can wait a week. 4 �So, we waited a week and then published it on the 23rd of August — and [sighs][chuckles] I feel like I already glossed over so much just by — at this point — so while I was reporting out that story in August, I got a phone call from Lynn, who, you know, [sighs] had just found sort of just through the grapevine that the DEQ [Michigan Department of Environmental Quality], they’re now called EAGLE [Environment And Great Lakes Energy] — it’s a cute acronym —they were handing out bottled water on a street in Belmont — where the chemicals were being found in people’s private drinking wells. DD: [huh] GE: And she was all excited — like not in a good way but like “oh my god, they found — they found this stuff at like, eighteen-hundred parts per trillion”, probably more, but I’d have to go find the notebook, but she was like, “really high levels at someone’s well on House Street”. And I remember writing it down like, “House Street, where the hell is House Street?”, right, like I didn’t even know where that was, and I thought, what a silly name for a street — like “building avenue”. [chuckles] DD: [laughs] GE: So, before the first story about the river published, we learned about what was happening on House Street— but, I mean, at that point it’s like, “oh, man, you know, what do I do?” You know, I’ve reported on this story, it’s focused on the river, and this issue with the tannery, and it became — so I started looking at House Street too and it became clear that this is a Wolverine Worldwide problem as well — and so, you know, the focus — the decision was — well let’s get the first story out and then follow up pretty quickly — as soon as you can. And so, you know, by the time the story was published on the 23rd, I had already started pivoting to House Street and I was trying to — I was — I had gotten a good briefing on the issue from the guy at the DEQ. His name was David O’Donnell. And he kind of ends up being a villain in this story. [long sigh] I don’t know if villain is the best way to put it, but he does not come across well. I mean like, you know, if you go back and look at some of the decisions that he made, you know, he not a [sighs] — the people who live on House Street, right, are not a fan of David O’Donnell — neither is Lynn McIntosh or anyone who, you know, works for the CCRR because he had been sort of a gatekeeper at DEQ — in charge of sort of the site, the Wolverine tannery site. Come to find out, he had been really — he had been a bit of an impediment to this stuff being discovered and being dealt with — something of a poster child for regulator captures in some ways. But what had happened, you know, CCRR and Lynn McIntosh — her group had been gathering all this evidence about Wolverine’s scotch guard use and had been taking it to David O’Donnell and the DEQ and trying to go, “Hey, look. Look at where they — this stuffs in the river right here in Rockford, you know, Wolverine’s patent [chuckles] clearly demonstrates that they use these chemicals, there’s all kinds of references to is even if” — but of course their lawyers are denying that they did and you know — you know even denying that they knew anything about scotch guard or PFAS and just the way that lawyers deny stuff like that. 5 �[sighs] So, once I found out about House Street, I had been back and forth with David O’Donnell about the river story, you know, just sort of reporting that stuff out and I had followed the [foyer?] request for, you know, Wolverine’s investigation — river investigation workplan, and so once I found out about House Street, I called David O’Donnell and said “What are you doing on House Street?”. This was like one of those “oh shit, caught us moments” because I had been talking to him about Wolverine and the river and PFAS and all this stuff for weeks, but he never mentioned that up in this neighborhood Belmont, nearby, we are investigating whether this stuff is in drinking water and ground water around an old landfill that they used to use. And they had been doing that — they started doing that in the spring. DD: [hmm] GE: So, months before Lynn McIntosh had ever emailed me, they had started doing work out there. The reason that they had started doing work up there is because of the Kent County Health Department, right, and — and there’s a big backstory there involving Lynn’s groups and trying to get information to the DEQ and trying to get enough evidence to force them to start investing this issue. There’s a woman at the health department named Sarah Simmons, who really played a big role in sorting of forcing David O’Donnell to move up a timeline for investigating this — this stuff there. He would’ve sat on that until 2018 or later, you know. And so — [chuckles] so my phone call with David O’Donnell was very much like, “Oh, you found out about that. Well, okay, why don’t you come on over to our office and I’ll sit you down and tell you everything that’s going on there”. And so, he — I went over to the State Office Building in Downtown GR [Grand Rapids], where the DEQ had it’s — Remediation Division Office, and it’s just a walk from MLive’s office to the State’s Office downtown. He put a map in front of me, you know, with like a color-coded — like oh here’s the property with really bad — red [laughs] — where we think there’s really high levels [sighs] and it was like “oh, man”. So, he laid it all out for me, so I had enough for a story, right? I have an official source from the government confirming that there’s an investigation going on — here’s what the investigation is about and here’s the properties, you know, that are at concern. But [sighs] you know, [sighs] that’s — that’s like the bare minimum for a story like this and I wanted to get some people who live in the — who live in the area, who live in the affected neighborhood. And so, I was really — working hard to try and get like anyone on House Street. [chuckles] The first story that I wrote doesn’t have anyone who lives on House Street. It had someone who grew up on House Street — a woman named Brandy Glaskey who is actually a loose family connection of mine — who is like [sighs] my grandma’s sister’s son’s wife. I think that’s third cousin or something like that or something removed? I never really figured it out, but I remember seeing her at family gatherings growing up anyway so somehow I put together because we were like friends on Facebook that she grew – oh no I saw her name -I had gone down the street, writing down all the -y’know knocking on doors but you know you are working during the day, nobody is home, nobody is answering. Those people that do answer like don’t want anything to do with a reporter, there was a pregnant woman answered, you know a pregnant woman answered. I don’t remember the exact address but, there were these bottles of water like 6 �four little twenty-ounce bottles of water sitting there with like a note on top. And like you know pregnant woman answers with a little kid behind her, and I’m like thinking “oh man” you know, contamination in the drinking water, its never good for -I mean pregnant women and kids are vulnerable populations. So, you know everything just- you know shaping up that this was bad news but. And so, I’m writing down addresses and and searching the people behind those addresses and trying to find phone numbers and stuff to call them and figuring out who lives here and sort of this sort of this basic investigative backgrounding work. And then I googled 18-50 – It think [sighs] I didn’t google – no 1850 house street, and I put that together with Joel Stelt. And I googled his name and an obituary popped up immediately, and it was recent. Like a year old, 2016. And it mentioned cancer? And it was like “oh no” you know? I mean it was just like one of those -all the pieces are -all the red flags are just you know stacking up. [sighs]. So, I eventually was able to get enough information out of DEQ, I was able to get a FIAO request with a lot of old files, historical sort of records showing that yes Wolverine dumped here on this property, and this was the dates, and there was a lot of old water resources commissions records and stuff. And so, I had a lot information and I had a lot of experience with the chemicals and what they can do and how far they can go and what the safety thresholds and stuff were, and who the experts talked to about this stuff because I had spent a lot of time at -reporting wordsmith. And so [sighs] the story about the river didn’t get a lot of attention, because that’s just the way it goes with environmental stories you know if the impact is primarily to the ecosystem, its, and ecological concern fore most. [DD agrees] people are upset about that sort of thing, get upset about it, but the more of the mainstream reaction tends to just shrug at it. But when you write a headline that says “toxic chemicals pollute drinking water” near old tannery dump, that gets attention and so that story went up, [pauses] [typing is heard] August 30th, 2017, so, about a week later, a week after the river story. And that was really the, you know, the sort of the damn broke on Wolverine and on PFAS and Rockford and that’s when it became like WOOD TV and all the TV stations suddenly jumped on it, you know Ken Kolker who is a former press reported you know is camped out on house street trying to get [sighs] TV reporters are intrusive, print reports we try not to be predatory but we are more the guy that comes up with you with the notebook and is like “hey how is it going try not to be a jerk here with the camera” whereas the TV reports are right in your face with the microphone you know they camp out on your lawn. But that approach can be effective because Ken Kolker was the first one to get Sandy went stealth actually to talk [laughs] I have bene calling and leaving voice messages and stuff before, but I was just too early you know? [DD laughs] the first one and nobody wanted to deal with the reporter but eventually when you deal with one its sort of like pandoras box is open and they start to deal with all of them. [sighs] so [pause] you know that story goes up and pretty quickly its- its big- its huge new right all the TV, all the Aps picking it, TV stations are doing stuff and immediately they schedule, a big public town hall meeting on it and you know it’s like, it’s a different thing you know? Chemicals in the river, that’s generally a concern for people who like a limited population right? People who eat the fish, [DD agrees] um, the chemicals in drinking water, that you know, that freaks people out rightly so. That’s a major problem. And it being that it wasn’t just the chemicals in drinking water, it was like these sort of new unregulated chemicals that people had never really heard of and understood. They understood the products associated but the underlying chemistry was a big mystery and its hugely complicated and you know this one woman’s property has got record levels of this. Like the regulators are like “we have never heard of anything this bad” right? 18.. what was it? [sighs and thinks] in the story it said that 27,000 parts per trillion in the well. Has the highest combined PFO as PFOA concentration the 7 �state health department toxicologist had ever seen in drinking water well. And that was just the PFOS and PFOA number, not the total PFOS number, which ended up being much much higher and subsequent testing showed you know just astronomically high levels. I think Sandy, that was Sandy [unclear]. [DD agrees] and I think later on I mean its tested at 88.000 parts per trillion its like pure scotch garden at that point. You know her husband was drinking that, and she was drinking that, and you know and then he its like [sighs] its one of those situations where you know as a reporter you always want a big story and then one lands in your lap and suddenly “ok now you gotta do this well! And you need to be respectful and and and not be predatory about it”. And you know so it was a delicate, delicate thing I think – I think I handled it pretty because the first two -well the first three stories because there was a third one here. Hold up I have gone back to you know years- you know the last few years to kind a like, read -reread through them, I mean like there is a lot of really good information here that holds up still. [DD agrees] And so part -one of the things that Lin Mackintosh had given me, one of the pieces of information -I think like the most crucial piece of information she ever got, the best document she ever got, was notarized in her view from my a truck driver -a dump -you know a guy that actually did the dumping on house street. She had found him one of her fellow group members had done a notarized interview with him, and that had they had given that to DEQ and that ended up being [pause] a really key piece of evidence that really forced the state to start invest- forced the state force Wolverine to start investigating around the house street dump. And so I had that too, you know I knew that not just -the chemicals weren’t only here on house street, they were, he dumped this stuff at a couple other places and so there was a third story um in that I was working on as well, um, [clicking] I can’t remember the headline there. [pause] [sighs] [typing] ok so, on September 7th I published the third story. Which is “Tannery waste dumped at landfill tied to municipal water pollution.” So here I was kind of able to bring this stuff full circle in some ways with the dump truck driver Earl Teft, he had said that we had dumped this stuff at house street, we dumped this stuff at old dump on -off of 12 mile and Algoma. Kind of up the river from Rockford, north of Rockford a little ways right on the river like a old dump on the river like, what a terrible place to put a dump. And the state disposal land fill on the beltline south of at like right there at four mile and [unclear] sort of like kitty corner of Robinette’s there a supper fun site. Used to be an old dump. Thankfully its downgradient from the apple orchard. So, I looked at that. You know cuz then you are like “oh my god” people are eating contaminated apples -but they weren’t. And so that was able to tie the Wolverine dumping to the Plainfield township municipal water issue. And that ended up being a really important thing because it sparked a lot of online activisms that resulted in people showing up in droves at Plainfield township board meetings demanding filtration and demanding something be done and that pressure for Plainfield township responded to that pressure by seeking state grant money to install activated carbon filtrations on their municipal water. And so that really kind of sparked the first [sighs] filtration efforts? And on municipal water in Michigan it was sort of a pilot project which is you know pretty, it created a water supply that could then be used as the solution you know that’s what’s happening right now right so Plainfield townships water is filtered for these chemicals and now they’ve extend -with the consent decree with Wolverine they’ve you know the company you know and three [unclear] are paying for Plainfield township watermain extensions to neighborhoods with polluted wells and stuff. So, it was like the first three stories in the span of about two and a half, three weeks you know. Established Wolverine the polluter, problem with the river, huge drinking water problem and ground water and Belmont and it’s tied to the municipal water issue in Plainfield township AND there are probably more dump sites, right? So, 8 �it was all of these things came out in the span of a few weeks and they didn’t go through the corporate PR downplay, spin washing machine, right? This was -there were no press conferences there were no press releases. There was no filtration of the news through you know the the through the government [sighs] or the corporate sort of polluter lens before it reaches the public, it was just pure information straight from primary sources and it was really strong reporting. And it at point -the community there was no denying it. Wolverine could not put the genie back in the bottle. And it, you know sort of spun into this enormous search for dump sites around the Rockford, northern Kent County area. And that turned up the woven jewel, Welling Ridge sorts of area that’s almost in terms of concentrations strength. It’s almost worse than house street a lot of people don’t know that. And it you know put a lot of pressure on the state government, especially after Flint. This is still Rick Snyder’s administration and so his response is, well gosh you know, I can’t be seen having another drinking water crisis, so you know he creates M Part, which and and and in M parts first big mission is to test all public drinking water supplies around the state. And what that does is it -that directly results in the discovery in contamination in parchment, and you know it you know it would not of happen if Wolverine had not broken in that way. If you know there hadn’t been enough -all this pressure being put on Lance and to act, [sighs] [sighs] that’s kinda where it becomes a personal story to me in some ways because, the work [sighs] on Wolverine and this story strained a relationship that was broken with my exgirlfriend. To the point of no return. We separated in December 2017. And That was very hard and and she met somebody within a few months, and he happened to live in parchment, [laughs]. And so, in mid-2018 she moves to parchment with my daughter. Mid, maybe it’s, its summer 2018 and off the top my head I don’t remember the exact date but thankfully by that time they had discovered the drinking water contamination, right. So, my daughter was in a you know, not exposed to that stuff [DD agrees] you know at that point I am really thankful for that, right? Because without all of this stuff happening, you know she’d have gotten down here and [pauses] you know I mean its high levels in the municipal water, they react really strongly to what happened in parchment, and they turn that- I mean they got the test and turned the tap off at the plant that day. And so that’s a weird you know, its sort of this roundabout way they I like kinda like I didn’t -I’m not Rick Schnyder, I didn’t make the state do this statewide water testing. But I do believe the that the way the news broke around Wovlerine and Rockford and sort of the community response to it and the fact that this stuff came out, [hand chopping] boom boom boom, like really solid reporting on this came out without a bunch of government or PR spin on it, forced a lot of action [DD agrees] I think that’s one of the more consequential actions that forced and and it did end up protecting the things that I love the most [laugh] so that’s, that’s a good feeling in that -that sense. DD: Can IGE: [stretches and laughs] I feel like I have been talking for a while [laughs] DD: You have, but that’s okay. 9 �GE: Did I -you know there is more to all -like there is more detail I could definitely like go back in and fill out detail on this stuff, [pause]. But [sighs] it oh [laughs and clears throat]. There is one interesting element to -to kind of go back to this point where [clears throat] I am just discovering this stuff, starting to report it as seek information about the Wolverines use of the chemicals and what’s going on with the river and what not. Back in August 2017, [sighs] one of the very first things I did, I almost the first thing I did after Lin Mackintosh identified Wolverine worldwide Tannery. As I sent a FOIA request from the DEQ for you know its investigation -I think it was -excuse me- [tisk] I forget the wording -exact wondering about a FOIA, it was information about what Wolverine was doing to investigate FPAS in Rockford. And that FOIA request [laughs] you know through subsequent FOIA requests in in you know reporting and stuff I [sighs] that FOIA request really hit a fire, under the state and Wolverine and I David O’Donald, I caught him before he gave me – FOIA materials to me, he gave them to Wolverine’s attorney a day prior. [DD agrees] Which is a no- no, you do not do that, I mean that was the kind of thing that never like I never fit it in any of the initial stories because it was seemed to be this sort of behind scenes inside baseball stuff that wasn’t directly relevant to the matter at hand which was drinking water contamination and health threat. It was you know corporate regulatory issue; you know involving the media. I was able to kind of, some oblique references to it in later stories, but that was how I knew that David O’Donald isn’t a voice right actor in this point right. You know the guy that is in charge of- you know overseeing the regulatory response is giving -media FOIA requests to the polluter before he gives them to the media. That’s an issue and that’s a big transparency shown, -it may just of sort of hammer home when Mackintosh has is saying to me at this time which is in some respect, going back to now this stuff sounds a bit extreme. And then you deal with something like that, and you are like “wow okay so there really is some bullshit going on here” [computer notification] So that’s an interesting piece of this you know DD: Yeah GE: There is more things like that, but I am thinking of writing a book [laughs] with this whole issue. DD: Wow GE: These initial interviews and [sighs] outlining and chapter and it’s a lot of work it’s a lot of work to write all report and write all day and you know. DD: And then write some more. GE: Yea [laughs] so I haven’t moved very far on that but there is just so much there that I don’t know how there really just is no other way to present it besides just documentary film or 10 �something like that it needs to be some sort of big, [sighs] you know substantial, depth, of [DD agrees] presentation for this matter because I am newspaper reporter and I can do long form stories and I can do regular updates and stuff but they’re all there is a limit to the newspaper format [DD agrees] and so I try to work the best I can within those limitations but there is still like like if she got -its been a few years at this point and you know there is, there is a lot of details around this story that you either have to know or know how to google search you know a whole bunch of old stories to find and stuff you know so I’d like to just, I’m really interested in a presentation that puts it all in one place. DD: Yea, that sounds fascinating I would read slash watch it. GE: Yea? Well, I hope but thank you. There is a kid working on a documentary eh he is a film maker in Ypsilanti. He kind of started working on it a few years ago and I have been trying to help him but he is kind of doing it on a shoe string but its not moving very quickly but you know I -it its an interesting story -I I I find the Wolverine story is -has a lot of drama [DD agrees] it effects a lot of people, chem- but its you know and in that respect its -its [sighs] you know its not like the military, where you know at an air force base -sorry about the pulsing black that’s there it’s the back lighting, like at an air force base, you’ve got the military they use this A FFF triple fighting foam, that creates the contamination there. It’s a different thing then when a company, you know, like Wolverine, which is this huge, global footwear company, headquartered in the same small town Kent County area, that it was birthed from, you know, it’s this sort of company town aspect to it, you know, pollutes the environment and the people in it’s hometown, right, in it’s backyard. It’s a different stor- I mean the contamination is the same, the result is the same. I mean if you’re drinking it because the military used AFFF foam and that’s how the groundwater polluted versus Wolverine Worldwide dumps scotts yard waste into an unmined landfill and that’s how the groundwater polluted. I mean if-if-if- you’re the affected person it doesn’t really matter. I mean you’re- I mean guess maybe it does in terms- if you want to get and sue them or something. You know you can’t sue the military basically. But in terms of storytelling and narratives and you know sort of things like that, the Wolverine Rockford story is much more compelling and I think it grabs people’s attention in a different way than a lot of the military contaminations, because I think when it comes to military there’s- people aren’t conflicted you know it’s like well this is the military weyou know- we support our troops. You know it’s hard for people to grasp the notion that- thatinstitution would be a bad actor. DD: “Mhmm” GE: “Versus you know a copr- major corporation. It’s almost like people just sort of expect you know, that sort of thing, right? You know, when profits, you know are on the line and- you know that’s the way business is done, you know kind of thing. 11 �DD: “Mhmm” GE: “There’s differences there in terms of, you know the residents I guess of the story. DD: “mhmm, absolutely. Yeah. So for you, after this kind of really intense period of reporting, what happened for you after that? Like as- as- in your work with PFAS? Did it have an impact for you moving forward or was this kind ofGE: “Yeah. [chuckles] I- so- it never stopped for me. It still hasn’t stopped for me. It’s- It’s been PFAS almost continuously since then. In fact, mLive recognized, thankfully, with a little bit of cajoling, sort of the mLive busts recognized this was- we were- we were way ahead of something that you know most other media outlets around the country hadn’t figured out yet. And so theynot only did they keep me on the story, the PFAS story, Wolverine, Rockford, all of that, but statewide and nationally, they added somebody so I started working with another reporter named Paula Gardner in early 2018. And, you know, because the M part situation quickly snowballed into statewide testing and now, we’re looking into wastewater, which, you know, is a huge pathway for the chemicals into the environment. Suddenly there’s a ton of interest and audience for this stuff in Michigan, and so and we had been doing great work on it, so, you know, there was about a two and a half, three year period where I wrote about nothing besides PFAS. Which is remarkable for a newspaper. You know it- it- just doesn’t really happen anymore. Especially in a time of consolidation in the media where everybody, you know, even specialists, are forced to do more generalist type stuff. It, you know, it’s still looking back, shocks me that I had A) I was writing about more or less one story, one subject for several years and I was doing it with someone else who was doing the same thing, it wasn’t like oh she’s going to help you part time, it was you two are a team and this is your subject and we- really proud of the work we did over 2018 and 2019. We really followed the drinking water testing and the results closely and it had a pretty big- it had some residence with Gretchen Witmer, who started talking about drinking water on the campaign trail a lot. It was like ‘fix the damn roads and clean up the drinking water’ like those were the two things. And so, when she gets elected, suddenly the process of developing drinking water standards is initiated. The groundwork had been laid under Rick Snyder, but nobody was expecting him to follow through with a regulatory process that, you know, imposes cost burdens on a regulated community, that’s just not what Republicans do. When she gets elected, you know, Whitmer’s a Democrat and she initiates the process for setting PFAS drinking water standards, you know, and now we have those. I threw some- just talking to people in this community, I remember talking to a donor, a Democratic donor, who is heavily involved in PFAS issues in Michigan. He- he tells me this story of you know, one of my- you know he’s at like a town hall presentation, like a- like a- campaign appearance with Whitmer and, you know, he gets an alert, and it’s one of my stories, it’s about like the first big results of drinking water testing around the state, you know showed, you know, if you total up the 12 �population of the systems with PFAS in them it’s about 1.5 million people are being served by filter systems right, so you know, that’s the headline. And so, he takes that headline over to Whitmer after their appearance, and she reacts pretty strongly to it. This is per my source but, you know, all of her actions today around PFAS, you know back that up that she took it pretty seriously. So that was nice. Anytime as a reporter you can point to policy action, you know, especially in the public health realm where people are being protected against a danger and a threat, you know that feels really good. That’s what journalism is supposed to do, right? I mean it’s sort of the larger importance of you know, journalism and what the news media can do and you know this is [chuckles] and this is all happening in the Trump era, you know where at nationally journalists are being, you know, vilified as enemy of the people, you know, interestingly I never experienced that. You know, most of the Trump years I spent writing about this issue DD: “mhmm” GE: “And just the amount of appreciation I’ve received from people who are affected by it or interested in it. I mean… overwhelming. You know, you get emails as a journalist, you get hate emails. If you’re writing about politics much more than about environmental issues, but I get some. Just the ratio is very much [chuckles] way way way way more people writing like ‘thank you’ emails versus you know what are you some kind of liberal doom sayer kind of stuff. So that’s been really encouraging. Right? It’s the kind of thing that, you know, makes the editors, you know, happy, your bosses happy, they can kind of sell the newspaper on that, a little bit on that. Look at what we’ve done, and here we got this guy, buy a subscription. And so that helps… job security. [chuckles] DD: [chuckles] GE: So yeah, I guess it’s a long way of answering your question, but yeah, I expect to be writing about PFAS for the rest of my career, you know, it’s like, every- you know, you talk to scientists, and you talk to experts and they’re like it’s the new PCB’s, it’s the new bestest, it’s the new this and that, you know and those things are still around, and those things still make the news now and then. I mean, I’m here in Kalamazoo, not far from the Kalamazoo River where, you know, there’s still dredging, sediment dredging going on from all the PCBs in the river from the paper making, you know, industry. They call that legacy, you know pollution. I jus-You know, PFAS is clearly on that sort of trajectory of being, you know, like it’s an issue that-, you know like PCBs, there’s clearly an effort to get it out of products where it’s not necessary, clean it up from the environment, more strictly regulate its uses, you know and that sort of thing. And because there is so much going on with it, there’s a lot to keep track of. And because that’s where my expertise has kind of been developed I kind of have to follow that. Which in some regards, creates a conundrum for me because I would write more about things like Climate Change, or 13 �Environmental Justice, which are really hugely important topics, but I have to kind of play a little bit of triage with my time because I go well, you know those things are being covered pretty well by other reports in Michigan and nationally. This is something that I have a lot of experience and knowledge in, and you know, I can do the most good by following that path, you know, instead of, you know, go where the herd is going. DD: “mhmm” GE: “But that’s hard to explain to some people, you know in Ann Arbor who are very upset about, you know rightfully so, climate change. And so, you know, over the years I’ve had to kind of say, you know look I can’t do everything, and this is the one I’m kind of following and I’ll get to climate change when I can. There are other really good reporters, it’s not like that topic isn’t in the news. DD: “Yeah. Well, I know, we’ve talked for the hour I’ve told you we would talk, and I want to be respectful of your time, and I’m sure you’re busy. GE: “Well, if you have more questions, I’m happy to answer them because right now you’re keeping me from a staff meeting which I am all about that.” DD: “Well I have one more question.” GE: “Okay.” DD: “Given your expertise, and all this experience. What are your concerns about PFAS contamination moving forward, either, you know, from human perspectives, personal perspectives, from work perspectives, what are your concerns about PFAS contamination looking into the future?” GE: “I guess my concern is that people become kind of a nerd to it, before there is very strong national regulations to keep them safe from- from this stuff. You know, and I think that is a big concern among the activists, community and some lawmakers who are trying to push for national drinking water standards. I don’t know if I have a great perspective on that because I’m in Michigan, which, you know over the last few years really learned- you know there’s a collective knowledge about it in Michigan to a much higher degree compared to states like Ohio even, well I guess not Ohio because they had the parkersburg, but other Great Lake states, and other states around the country where the testing hasn’t been done to show that, you know, it’s ‘Yes’ it’s ambiguous to the environment, it’s probably in some drinking water. You know, I guess last year during 2020, when the pandemic hit and everything, you know Covid was the only thing people were paying attention to, it was certainly the only thing that news editors cared about, you know 14 �followed by racial strife, you know in the summer, it was sort of- frustrating to have watched interest amongst the readership as well as, you know, your bosses just [plane noise] nose dive on that and I think we’ve gotten to a place now in 2020 you know where people are vaccinated and life seems to be kind of resuming in a normal fashion, where PFAS issues are kind of coming back and people are paying attention to that again. I can see it in the numbers on a particular headline, because we get- we can see how many people are reading stuff. There is the other concern that we keep replacing the chemicals that are in use now with newer versions of the same stuff. That’s what they’ve been doing right? Like PFOS has been phased out and so they bring in PFBS which is the same thing it just has a different number of Carbon atoms. It’s supposedly safer right? Well, is it? Probably not, right? We’ve talked to health experts and they’re like well it’s not any less toxic. It may not persist in the environment quite as long, but you know, you still shouldn’t be drinking that. And so there’s, you know, this sort of issue with manufacturing of these chemicals, which are obviously lucrative, and so it’s like as the problem evolves in this sort of industry, you know, looks to kind of keep that gravy train going, how does it evolve in a way- will it evolve in a way that we can kind of keep track of it and make sure that it’s not getting into the environment again or are we going to be repeating this years down the road. I remember even in the midst of Wolverine and all of this stuff breaking, people going ‘what’s the next PFAS going to be?’ and I’m like the next PFAS? Let’s deal with this PFAS right here instead of worrying about what the next thing is, but now I look back on that and think well that’s probably a smart thing to be worried about, right? Maybe we should be having that conversation now while this is happening versus ignoring it, you know, until we discover a new problem down the road. Those would be- I’ll probably think of a better answer once [laughs] we hang up, and I’ll be like oh there’s this thing. I wonder what it all means for people in general like what is the larger outcome of this science experiment that we’ve been playing on the human population with, you know, mutagenic chemicals that affect people’s DNA? What does that look like 50, 100 years down the road? What’s the world going to look like when my daughter is older, and she’s grown up? Those are things I think about too. DD: “Yeah. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven’t touched on today? Or anything you’d like to go back to? I know there’s hoodles of things you could say but- “ GE: “Oh so much. You know, I- there’s a guy named Bob Delaney, who you may have heard of. Who really deserves just all the credit in Michigan for- and in some ways nationally, for being sort of the one who was out there kind of shouting that this was a problem, years before anyone was in a position to be able to understand that, or to acknowledge that. And he- you know, when I first called him about [?] in 2016, I didn’t know who Bob Delaney was. He’s a geologist, he’s a state scientist, well he’s retired now, at the time he was the state’s lead site manager for [?] and I expected that phone call to be ignored or to get an email back saying you know what you need to contact the PR people in order to set up an interview, in the way a lot of State and Federal 15 �employees do when a reporter calls, they’re like uhhh talk to the PR guy, but he didn’t do that. He recognized that what I was doing was important and he talked to me. And talked to me very frankly about the issue, and that was so different than most interactions you have as a reporter when talking to a government official. Without that, none of this would have happened I think in terms of the reporting and the stories and what not. Because I would- you know, the way he explained it to me and the knowledge I gained from him was absolutely crucial, to knowing that you’re on solid ground as a journalist on a topic you’re unfamiliar with, you know, you need sources you can trust, who are credible. If you have those, that's gold. He was that. I mean I can’t say enough about how important that was in order to, you know- because you know, writing about this sort of thing, you’re going to get people who try to knock it down right? And there’s going to be big, powerful institutions, you know, Wolverine Worldwide, 3M, attorneys for major law firms- they’re going to pick it apart, they’re going to, you know, try and find problems with it and I’m not a PhD, you know, I feel like I’m a smart enough guy, but I need to be able to trust the scientists who I’m talking to who are saying this is a huge problem, it’s worldwide, we’re not really dealing with it, here’s the potential health implications- I have to be able to trust they know what they’re talking about, and Bob Delaney did. He just deserves all the credit in the world for being, not only smart enough to figure out that this was an issue and start looking for it and taking actions to try and spur protections for people, as well as being open enough about it to speak to the media, and speak to journalists, and trust that they’re- you know, trust that process, you know, trust that that is still a valid way of getting good information out to the public-” 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0019 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ellison, Garret Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-29 Title A name given to the resource Garret Ellison, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Garret Ellison is an investigative environmental reporter at Mlive and Grand Rapids Press in Michigan. In this interview, Ellison discusses PFAS contamination in the Wolverine Worldwide site in Rockford, MI and his role in breaking MI-based PFAS stories. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b449f207249a2cc4a252cf4e502606e4.mp4 67d9d2780a425915e2cc692ef831e39e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/271c73137bb38c4652709ce63d8f560d.pdf 2605d36c50dfae6657180f0536296252 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Sue Borgeson Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: June 22nd, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and today, June 22nd, 2021, I have the pleasure of talking to Sue Borgersen. Hi Sue. SB: Hi Dani! DD: Sue can you tell me a little bit about where you’re from and where you currently live? SB: Well, it's a little difficult to tell you where I'm from because I was born and raised in the military, so I've lived all over the world all over the United States in the military and landed in Rockford Michigan. Thirty years ago, I met my husband, and he was from west Michigan, and you know the story of falling in love so here I am. So yep, I live in Rockford, and I absolutely love living here. DD: And you said you've been in Rockford for about 30 years? SB: Um well actually 20. We lived in Grand Rapids for about 10 years. DD: Great. Sue, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? SB: Actually, in my community my story with PFAS goes way back to the early 80s. Growing up in the military. My dad was in the Air Force, we lived in Oscoda, Michigan in a Wordsmith Air Force base. And we arrived in Oscoda from Austin Texas, and this was I believe our second time living in a military installation. Um so we arrived in Oscoda, happy, healthy um no concerns and within a short period of time um it seemed as if our whole family suddenly was getting really sick. And weird things would happen um weird ailments, it especially affected my mother, and we had no idea. She was experiencing extreme fatigue, excruciating migraines and it was suggested that it was her teeth, her back molars needing to be aligned. So, they went in and started grinding on her teeth and they said oh um maybe that's not it we think you have a TMJ problem. So she ended up down at Wright Patterson Air Force. They did temporal.. um had her mouth wired shut for probably a good three months. That did not help… um just it was really very awful. My mom… ended up going to a doctor down in the Saginaw area who started doing testing on her and ran blood analysis and hair analysis and came back and said you have high trace minerals in your hair but your blood, mercury is off just skyrocketing, sane with lead, arsenic and a few other things. And my mom's got black hair and the doctor said to her "If you're dying your hair chances are your probably getting poisoned by your hair dye. So I came home from school and she had shaved her head. So this woman had been put through hell and back and thought that the only way that she was going to feel better was to shave her head. And then in that time um my dad retired from the military, we stayed behind so I could graduate from uh High school with my class. And he headed to west Michigan here and we stayed behind but we �moved to um house in downtown Oscoda. Everyone had well water, um and the problems just kept getting worse and I had a sister um who was terribly ill, hospitalized, they told her she had toxic shock syndrome, mono um. But nothing was confirmed they could not say that this was definitive this was exactly what was happening, the same thing was happening with me. Um we moved to West Michigan and I left went to college and didn't come back till about thirty years ago when I met my husband, lived in Grand Rapids for a while and in that time just continued to be just a deathly sick person. Energetic and was athletic, and I liked to do things but was finding I wasn't able to function, so I started going through the same thing that my mom had gone through seeing doctors all over the Midwest all the way down to Cleveland clinic to check out, maybe what was wrong with me. Did I have MS, did I have chronic fatigue? Did I have fibromyalgia um I had carry malformation, grossest on my body in my body, right now I'm going to be hanging surgery here in the next couple months to have them removed but I've had cysts grow that nobody can explain while it just you know a freak thing. But things really seemed to come to a blow when my husband and I decided we were going to start a family. And in that, it was not happening we started seeing different specialists, but nobody could explain why we weren't able to conceive a child, we didn't want to go the fertility route, then we wondered about adoption, and it was like if we're not supposed to have them, we're not supposed to have them. And we're ok with it. We kind of moved on from that and um but I still was sick, and you know then they started telling me my cholesterol was high, my HGLS was all out of whack, just out of this world and extremely anemic on top of all of it. Um there was actually a point in time I was so sick that they were suggesting to me that I was anorexic, and I was doing it on purpose to be hospitalized. Um you know, I assure you, I am I’m not anorexic, not doing this intentionally that's the situation with the medical field, they can't figure it out or help you with it, they start telling you it’s in your head and they start coming up with alternate solutions or situations to say ok we think this is what it is. So, you go down that route for a while and discover indeed that is not it. And not only cause I was going on this route, did it make things worse. I still don't know what the heck is going on. So, about that time I started hearing stories, well I should say we moved to Rockford in that time, and we live in downtown Rockford not too far from Rogue River and that is how getting water, smelled funny. I didn't like drinking in Oscoda, on the air force base. To this day I have a hard time drinking water. Our water smelled bad, tasted bad, so I called the water department, they came to test it, the gentleman who came out said um you know usually when we go to people’s house because they say its smells. Usually, they have a lot of animals, animal waste, garbage, he said your house is immaculate. He said so we don't know what it is, but you know we'll get it fixed for you well that plant got decommissioned. They hooked us up to you know the whole area to this aquifer that's just outside town here. And you know things kind of seem to level off for a little bit and when you don't know what the heck is going on and you see these things and you like to try to put them together and it's just it's just frustrating. And so, we used to walk our dogs down by the river and walk along and in the fall when the river goes down you could see the tree roots exposed on the riverbank, and we would see these like these long-twisted things that were like shoved into the roots and they were all along the bank. And we get to a remote area, and we let our dogs off the leash, and they would run, and they would bring these things back to us and we had no idea what they were. And we kayak and canoed, there’s foam in the river we had no idea what it was and just to go back to Wordsmith again for a second Wordsmith is on a lake than at lake which is just outside the gate area, and they had their own private beach facility where all the military families could go and swim and they had docks and all kinds of cool stuff. And we was sit there and play �in this foam that would just come up on the beach and we would cover each other in this foam. It was just, we were thinking it was just this natural occurrence that came from lake nobody even had a clue. So I started hearing things coming out of Wordsmith about the water quality up there and the things that they found with regards to PFAS and it's to PFAA and then started hearing about the Wolverine factory, the PFAS, you know on packer and those drives that are just a West of Rockford. And started putting two and two together and discovered a group out of Wordsmith that was a community of people that had all the same symptoms, all the same ailments and they were coming together to talk about their issues yes, I can't have kids yes I've got high cholesterol yes I have thyroid problem multiple sclerosis just the whole gambit. And they were going to hire Erin Brokowich to represent them in a suit again the United States Air Force. So, I joined the group and having worked in engineering industry, friends that were environmental engineers, started asking them questions about things. I asked this group these questions and I got kicked out of the group because they thought, I was a mole. And I was like what? How come I can't be in your group? And they said nope, you're obviously a mole, and I said what makes you think I'm a mole? Well, you're asking questions nobody else would ask. Cause I work in this industry, you can go to my LinkedIn profile, it will tell you my work history. So, it didn't matter I still got kicked out anyways. Um but what they did for me was I said OK I don't need a group of people to figure what is wrong with me. I think this is what has happened to me and to my family. I'm gonna just investigate it myself and put 2 and 2 together and I went to my doctor, and I sat down with studies with studies and reports and articles, and you know she's got my high health of history, and I had all that. I had full on hysterectomy bout 5 years. And the doctor that did the hysterectomy said that there was no way on God's green earth that I was gonna get pregnant because my uterus and ovaries were nothing but one big lump of cysts, that had been growing for a bazillion years. And said that was never going to happen, um you have the strangers looking uterus we've ever seen you for. We stopped counting the number of cysts that were on your reproduction organs, anyway, so I sat down with her went through everything. And you know I think I would like for you to see a toxicologist. So, she scheduled an appointment to talk to a specialist at Devos children’s hospital because if there if somebody poisoned, it's usually a child. So, they have them at, the toxicologists are associated with the children's hospital. So, I go to meet, this doctor, explain my situation I’m concerned about my health going on in the future, are there tests for my blood, what's can we do here? And he told me he said, how long has it been since you lived in Oscoda? And I said oh about 35 years, and he said, well what happens when you take the pan off the fire, he said it cools down. He said there's no way you would still have any chemicals in your body from 35 years ago. So now um Pfas is considered the forever chemical, and um I don't know there's what 17 chemicals, 31 compounds in PFAS that settled within your tissue, in the organs in your body. Just the frustration with that, um to try to help yourself to figure things out um and to be told id you take the pain off the fire, it stops getting hot. The other thing that as military raised child, individual there's no way of tracking any of this health issues. Because once you turn 18, 21, 18 if you don't go to college, 21 if you do, you no longer afford military health care. So, they can't track you, so there are a ton of us out there that lived on these bases exposed to the chemicals. Going to my first class reunion ten years after I graduated because when you're in a military family, when your dad retired, everyone goes with ya. So, if you retire, wherever you and your family usually goes with ya. So, nobody is really essentially located there anymore. Going back to 10-year class reunion, nobody had kids. But some people were feeling kind of sick and getting diagnosed with things. Twenty-year class reunion, people are in wheelchairs, people �have died. My best friend across where my best friend who lived across the street from me, was a firefighter on base. Worked on those runways every day in that, passed away a number years ago of some bizarre liver cancer that they could not even identify how it may have even started she died of that same liver cancer her mother died of the same liver cancer so going back to my 20th class reunion and I said to my husband how am I gonna handle this when people start asking you about you know my kids cause this is where we're going to show pictures in what. said you know it's not a big deal to me to not have kids, but I don't want to stand there and have to explain to a 150 people why don't we have kids? And To my surprise a large majority of the people did not have children and if they did very difficult to conceive and/or that they had adopted so at adopt it so you know it's just if you start looking at the population then you're looking at all the different elements that people have that lived in that particular area there was something not right To my surprise a large majority of the people did not have children and if they did very difficult to conceive and/or that they had adopted so at adopt it. It's just if you start looking at the population then you're looking at all the different ailments that people have that lived in that particular area there was something not right. And the medical profession is not able to help us, maybe it's something cause it's a chemical, it sits in your body. Maybe its another cure or those sorts of things, but the direction I wanted to come from, On this was doctors need to be with the research community, new search community needs to be working with the technical scientists on not only getting rid of this chemical but also at the same time what is going to pop up out of this I mean are people going to be having you know Parkinson’s and ALS I mean I went to Chicago on Friday and it was a really kind of a taxing day the heat and the whole just a whole day while my Nero you're a lot of what is it neural muscular system just went on the blink and so I get fried and I'm not able to function so we ended up having come home because I was absolutely exhausted. And it’s taken me um since Saturday, and I was like oh please I hope I'm not too tired to do this on Tuesday because I have to say something about it. Um but you know I have um my sisters and brothers same sort of thing. Um and it's just, it's tragic to also live in a community where how the heck did, I end up here. After living wordsmith and Oscoda and living right smack dab in the middle of Rockford. And what is going to, what's going to pop up next with all of this? Um so that's kind of where that's kind of my story. Kind of rambled, that's kind of it in a big nutshell. My mom never did recover from of it. And when you have, you know healthcare professionals I'm drilling into your head that the pain that you feel on the tired that you feel is all in your head while it eventually ends up in your head and you know it's just at the time I want people invent these things they're really cool everybody's excited all this is you know the next greatest thing and then you know 10 15 20 years later we find out that you know what it's no dumb what it's doing too not only our world but you know what are the vitamins but people in health and You know I don't know what the solution to that is but you know but I feel like I needed to say something and health and spending some time investigating those kids of issues. DD: Yeah, thank you. SB: Sorry, that was a half an hour answer. �DD: It was great, it was a great story to tell and I'm so glad you told it. What concerns do you have with PFAS contamination moving forward? You might have hinted this a little bit, but can you speak to that question a little more? SB: Well, I do know that you know there's a full court press on trying to develop in our water in wastewater treatment plants filters to filter out PFAs to track it to see where it's going. My concerns with it it's not just in the water it's water it's in the soil so even though you may not be drinking water it's still in my backyard and still in the dirt. Um what is that going to mean for us, here's something I learned too, I was really surprised by. PFAs is on hamburger wrappers, you know when they're collecting water samples, to test for PFAs, you cannot have eaten a hamburger without washing your hands. They have this whole long list of things. It's still being used in products that are detrimental to the health and welfare of people of the world. I'm just you know, I'm glad in the industry that I'm in because it allows me to be a little more informed. And aware of what's transpiring with the world of PFAs and but I also know there's a whole of health issues that nobody is willing to say yes this is directly an impact from PFAs. Allot of liver cancers. You know H TAL's LDL is the Al's LD o's triglycerides cholesterol is cholesterol even when you take medication it does not lower those so just you know what does that mean for liver and pancreas and not just me but you know everybody that lives around here. DD: Well before we wrap up today, Sue, would you like to add anything we haven't touched on or anything you want to go back to and say more about? SB: Um, I think I pretty much said what I wanted to say about, but it's been 35 years almost 40 years, of being exposed to PFAs. Um I'm a pretty healthy girl, you know um I've endured a lot look great on the outside, I think. But on the inside, um not so much on certain days, I feel fortunate that I'm able to care through it where a lot of people have not been able to manage it. Because they don't know what’s going on with them, and they just continue they just continue to tread water and I'm excited about the ideas of people being able to come together and connect with one another over these issues maybe not me but generations behind me that have been exposed to this are they'll come up with something that can help people live better lives that have been exposed to PFAS. I think water is the war of the world in It's a precious resource that we have a tendency to take a pic take advantage of, but you don't know what you don't know so what's the next thing. DD: Yeah, very true, SB: So that's kind of my story in a nutshell, um I don't have anything seriously terminal to this particular point, but um sometimes you can live a long life and just be miserable every day. You know because of the things people have to deal with. And um as a result of this chemical, so I pray for those people, every day at least 3 or 4 times. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. DD: Well, thank you so much Sue for taking the time to share your story today. �SB: Absolutely, thank you for your interest and spending the time with me today. . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0018 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Borgeson, Sue Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-22 Title A name given to the resource Sue Borgeson, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Sue Borgeson grew up in a military family and has lived all over the world and the United States, and currently resides in Rockford, Michigan. In her interview, Sue discusses the impact PFAS has had on the health of her family after being exposed on military bases and at her home in Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13ab5577309d13ad17c48111090353cd.mp4 cf1dd5d14ff9e9cd436de10dcebd6f78 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be1b7c808428284913b9f2468cd47557.pdf 4c7a5d523389bed639f2fa506a912ef9 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Interviewee: Larry Campell Date: June 18, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, June 18th, 2021. I have the pleasure of chatting with Larry Campbell. Hi, Larry. LC: Hi. DD: Larry can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live? LC: Well I currently- I was born and raised in Belding, Michigan, and I attended Grand Valley State for a short period of time. While I was attending Grand Valley State University, I met my wife, and she is from Sparta, Michigan. We eventually married and moved to Belding, Michigan. Unfortunately, through this horrible journey that this PFAS put us through, it eventually led to our divorce and I’m currently living in the Metro Detroit area. DD: And how long have you been in the Metro Detroit area? LC: It’s been over two years now. DD: Okay. Larry, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? LC: Yeah, you know. This kind of started around 1997-1998. After I met my wife, we lived in the same apartment complex that, when I was going to Grand Valley State University I was also in the Michigan National Guard at the time. I had come off active duty in 1996, off active duty in the Army, and enrolled in Grand Valley State University, where I also played baseball. After my first year at Grand Valley, I had moved to an apartment complex where I ultimately met my future wife. She had two children, and I love kids. And we kind of, you know– We grew closer, and I eventually met her family. One of the strange things about when I first met the family, especially her father, [he was] very stand-offish, not very talkative. Later on, once we had announced that we were going to have a baby together, things had begun to take a strange turn. Her father, my future father-in-law, and I could never have a conversation like you and I are doing now. He was always adversarial, always coming at me sideways, and I could never understand it. I was like, “Look, I love your daughter.” It was a very strange situation. She had two children from previous relationships and none of the fathers were in the picture. I was willing to take them on as well as I wanted to be there for my son, and so on and so forth. None of that seemed to matter to him. It was– It was a bizarre relationship in fact, at one point I became so frustrated that I said, “So, what you’re saying that you’d rather have me ride off into the sunset?” and he was like, “Yep, yep.” It was not normal. It was not normal. At first I thought that they were staunch catholic, and maybe because I wasn’t catholic that I thought that maybe there was some jealousy. I was another father-figure coming into the picture, and which he felt– I 1 �don’t know why he would’ve as he’s the patriarch of the family. There wasn’t anything I had done that would give him the idea that I wasn’t capable of raising a family and being a good protector. My son was born in 1999, and in the following year I was hired by the Michigan Department of Corrections. So, gainfully employed, it seemed barely worthy enough, it was very bizarre. They lived in Sparta, Michigan, which is in northern Kent County. Beautiful area up there, they live on Squaw Lake area, tributary, that feeds from Squaw Lake into the Rogue River. Which, people are following– We know that the river was contaminated quite a bit. You could go to Rockford, Michigan and see the PFAS foaming at the dam; it’s a water wonderland up there. They lived off the beaten path in a secluded [drive]. The father had blazed a two-trail track back into the woods and had built a house. It’s a beautiful area. We lived there for a while as they had a small cabin on the property as well. While his daughter was going to school at the time they said, “Hey stay there while she’s going to school.” I was driving from Sparta to Ionia, where I worked at the time. I just kept pluggin’ along and taking care of the family, building a relationship with their family, but it just never seemed– Something always seemed off. Right after my son was born in 1999, suddenly my wife had to have an emergency hysterectomy. DD: Hmmm. LC: It came out of the blue, we didn’t even get a second or third opinion. It was like, “Nope this needs to be done ASAP.” And it just came out of nowhere. I was kind of–I was pretty disappointed ‘cause I was like, “Well I guess I only get one child.” And you know, so– This was odd. She was probably early thirties, early to mid-thirties, and suddenly she has to have an emergency hysterectomy. If you know any women that have had hysterectomies then you know that it throws the hormones into an imbalance and that was the beginning of all, of all her medical problems. So, it-it was to a point where– Because my son was born in 1999 and we weren’t married yet, it was such an odd situation that I was questioning if I wanted to marry this woman. When you don’t really have the support of the parents, or it’s kind of an odd situation and it didn’t make sense. You could not reason with these individuals. You could not reason with– Interestingly, I started building a house around 2004, started building a house, in the Belding area where I grew up. I had purchased some property while I was in the Army and had sat on it for a while. Once I was well established at my new job, I decided to build a home. Well, 2005 we moved into the home. It seemed that when I got her away from that area, or her family–or you know looking back, it was probably that area, knowing what I know now–things started to get better. I didn’t know what it was at the time. I didn’t know if it was the influence of her parents, that was the only thing that I could come to the conclusion of. It was, you know, the influence of her parents, her dad was such an overbearing type of person. There were times that he would say “If the house isn’t clean by the time I get home, there’s gonna be hell to pay.” And different things like that. So, my wife was a very, meticulous, OCD, and kept a very clean house, and stuff. Basically, kind of had OCD from it. But she was a very good cook, and a great mom, and things like that. But when it came to her parents, there was just– there was, there was no reasoning. It was very disheartening. I always felt like an outsider any time I went over there, 2 �never really had a relationship with her father. It was more or less, you didn’t talk to him. It was– It was– It was strange to say the least. Now we are living in Belding, and we got married in May of 2005. I never even, even at the wedding–I got a hug from her mom–but didn’t even get a handshake or a welcome to the family from her dad. And just, I– You know– Another, just kinda strange, type, you know– I was just like, “Well it what it is.” And I was just accepting the fact that he was a hard worker and maybe that is just the way he is. So, I just kept pluggin’ on and did what I did, and stuff– Probably, not long after, 2006-2007, the wife started having a lot of kidney stones that were one right after another. Had no idea what was going on. I’ve still yet to look up– I haven’t looked up whether kidney stones can be any type of symptom or reaction from PFAS contamination. Now, because her health is being affected, she was losing jobs. And it was putting financial strain on us as well. And then, 2007 or actually 2008, her father comes down with colon cancer. And I guess he had known something was going on for a while and had this ‘didn't’ go to the doctor’ type thing. Unfortunately, it was pretty progressed, and they went into the chemo, and so on and so forth, to do what they could. But interestingly, the property they owned around Squaw Lake, the father’s name was Charles ‘Chuck’ Cockren, but he was drilling the wells lotting off the property. So, here he is digging the water wells, lotting off this property around Squaw Lake, and he was drinking this raw water right out of the ground, basically testing the vein. “That’s a good vein, not a good vein.” When we lived in the cabin that was between the dam and their property, right on the tributary coming right off Squaw Lake, the water tasted horrible. I mean horrible is– The only time I would drink the water is if we ran it through a Britta then would mix it with Kool-Aid or something. It was very horrible tasting, smelled. The weird thing is that their water, at their home, which came off the tributary and Squaw Lake, probably 300-400 yards, their water tastes amazing. DD: Huhh. LC: Like, like the best water I’ve ever tasted. So, we had lived there for a while, but her father was drilling all these water wells, lotting off this property. Well, he suddenly comes down with cancer and we had no clue. And we’re just like, “Oh my gosh.” And the heartbreaking thing about it was he had come down with cancer, and he passed away two days before Christmas. DD: Hmmm. LC: It was heartbreaking because we had put off Christmas shopping for the kids. Kind of, you know, making– I wasn’t able to go shopping with her, my wife, because she was visiting her father as much as possible. By this time, hospice had come in, and I finally said, “Hey is there anywhere we can meet at the Meijer in Rockford, just, you know, we can grab Christmas presents quick for the kids and you can get back?” So, I met her there and after we got done, I don’t even remember if I was home yet, but she called me, and it was like he was waiting for her 3 �to return from shopping, and then he passed away. So, two days before Christmas, that was a pretty-pretty somber Christmas. Still at this point had no clue, it wasn’t even on the radar. So– Wife’s health continued to get worse and worse. She had been diagnosed with Autoimmune disorder. She developed Fibromyalgia. Which it seems Fibromyalgia affects women more than men. It’s just this chronic pain all the time, joints; it's horrible. And so, we were living in Ionia County at the time, obviously in Belding, and the wife goes to a pain management clinic to try-to try to find something to help her manage the pain that she’s going through and dealing with. They prescribe her Opioids. And this was in, probably, oh I would say, I’m just guessing, 2012ish, 2011ish, somewhere around in there, and that just kind of allowed her to function, I guess. It just continued to get worse, the pain got worse– So long story short, it got to the point where she was running out of her medication, my mom who’s got arthritis really bad, she would ask to borrow a few just to get through until her next medication. But the Opioids were never enough. I think she was taking six a day at one point, which is unbelievable. And her pain threshold– I think she was functioning at a six on the pain level while on the Opioids. Which a pain level of 10 you’re crawled up in a ball. It just continued to progress and get worse and worse. I was working in a prison now. I was working at the Michigan Department of Corrections. I had worked third shift for 15 years. I was raising my son, he’s kind of hopefully the next major league baseball player. He’s been scouted and been playing baseball since he was 17. But me working third shift I was able to raise him and coach him. But, working at a maximize security prison, it’s not a nice environment. You know, there’s PTSD and hyper vigilance, it’s just not a good environment. Between that and working third shift where you’re kind of always in a haze you feel like a zombie because you’re always fighting to get enough sleep. I eventually thought that the cause of her health issues was that I was bringing home the environment I was working in. I started trying to find a way to get out because I knew corrections officers have a high mortality rate. Most of them pass away within five years after retiring. I was coming up on 15 years and I sure as heck didn’t want to do another 15. Especially, if I felt that me working there was causing a lot of the stress and other issues for her health. I really thought it was me. I thought I was the big [issue] with bringing my work home. Even though I wouldn’t bring it home, your still affected by it, and that’s projected onto friends and family. I’ll admit I wasn’t a nice guy. I was grumpy all the time, short fused. Unfortunately, it’s the environment you’re subjected to everyday. Being prior military, I was like, hey I’m equipped to work in law enforcement, but really no one is equipped to work in that job. Eventually I was able to get out that job, and get my real estate license, and was actually doing both at the same time. By the grace of God, I was offered a position in real estate and was able to finally able to leave the Michigan department of infractions. Still continuing to deal with the health issues and the doctors had no answers. All they did was give her more opioids and basically appeasing her. At this point this was about the time where the opioid crisis was just beginning and building. I was becoming disheartened, because I’m the hunter and gatherer, and protector, and now I can’t even, I have no answers when the doctors have no answer. This was in 2017 or 2018, and my son has gone to college now, his first year at Arizona. Went down to Arizona and played collegiate baseball for a college in Arizona. I’m very proud of him and things like this that was kind of the downfall for the family. My son is down in Arizona, and we kept a lot of her, my wife’s health issues [hidden]. My son, he needs to focus on school, focus on baseball. He’s 2,000 miles away in Arizona and we had a pact or an agreement between her and I; that we want him to focus on school and everything and that we won’t burden 4 �him with your health issues, we’ll try to figure it out. What was heartbreaking was that I had asked my son, I said look your mom needs to hear your voice and see your voice, whether it’s a text message or voicemail, video chat, every day. You need to lift your mom up every day, and I’m just trying to do anything to try and stay positive to keep her positive in hopes to turn a corner with her health, and he didn’t do that. It was kind of frustrating. In fact, when he got home from college, I’m guessing his mom had mentioned to him or he was asking me why she looked so you know, she lost weight. He’s yelling at me “Why didn’t you tell me that mom was sick?!” I said “I asked you to lift your mom up every day. Whether it’s a message, somehow, someway, some form and you never even did that.” He’s an eighteen, nineteen-year-old kid. I finally convinced her and said this is not sustainable. I went into her room, we slept in two different rooms because I was a third shifter. I had the room blacked out, and she had her little cocoon and oasis that she liked to keep, and it worked out better for us in that sleeping arrangement. I walked into her bedroom one day and she’s crying uncontrollably. She’s like “I can’t take this pain.” I was at my wits end. I was out of answers, I was out of options. She’s already taking six opioids a day. Borrowing from my mom. I knew that this was just not sustainable. Now, her mom lived up by herself in Sparta. By the way, she had, by this time, she had developed heart issues. She has what’s called A-fib, Atrial Fibrillation. She was by herself, she was retired, and basically, I said “Listen, I want you to go stay with your mom for a while. Go see her doctor, get a second opinion.” I felt that she’d love going to her mom’s. It’s an oasis up there it’s a beautiful area up there, away from everybody, where she doesn’t have to worry about two messy boys. “Look I’m mowing lawn, and fixing cars.” So, she wouldn’t have to pick up after us or anything like that. She went to her mom’s. She went to her mom’s doctor, got a second opinion, and what I was trying to do was, I was trying to get her mom to try and take some responsibility for her daughter’s health. Because I couldn’t do everything, I had everything on my shoulders, with no answers. So, she went and stayed with her mom for a week or so. Went to her doctor, got in and she says “Hey.” She didn’t want our son to know that I had drawn a line in the sand with regard to this not being sustainable. And kind of stepping back for minute to when she was crying uncontrollably, she says I can’t take this pain anymore I just want to die. DD: Mmm hmm LC: I kind of went into rescue mood, and I says now look you’re not going to die, that would devastate the kids. I knew just that this wasn’t sustainable. While we lived in Ionia County at the time north of me Montcalm County, one of my good friends was the Deputy Director of the Montcalm ambulance. And a week or two prior to her saying this to me he said, “Larry we had a husband and wife overdose from opioids a day apart in the same house.” So, this was right in the middle of the crisis, and I just finally had to draw a line in the sand and say this isn’t sustainable. I had to force the issue of having her mom come into the picture and take some responsibility for her daughter’s health. So, she stayed at her mom’s, went to her mom’s doctor and she called me and said, “Hey will you pick me up.” She didn’t want are youngest son to know we were struggling as a couple with this whole health issue. So, I go to [the] Grand Rapids area. Pick her up from her mom’s doctor. Through all of this, this PFAS really, it effects men and women differently. For women it brings their emotions down to where they’re very subdue. This chemical subdues any outward inflection. I didn’t know this at the time, but this was just how her mom was. I pulled up next to them. We parked driver to driver. It was close to easter, and she says, “I say hey how’s it going?”-and she just like says- “Hey.” Not like, hey we found some stuff out, hey we’re moving in the right direction. It was nothing, no report, just a hey. That was 5 �kind of par for the course. My wife gets out and gets in the car. I say, “Hey how are you doing?” and she just like “Not good.” I’m like “What did they do?” She says, “They pulled me off of opioids, cold turkey, and gave me pain patches.” They weren’t even touching her. I say, “What’s your pain level at?” She said “12.” So, we leave and were driving home. She did say the doctor filed a complaint with the Pain Management Clinic in Ionia County. As they were over prescribing her opioids. LC: So, we’re on the way home driving back from Grand Rapids. We come to M-44 where we head into Belding, and West River Drive area. We’re driving along and talking more, and I am just becoming more and more disheartened because there are still no answers. No clue [of] what’s going on, why this has become so bad. In hindsight, I wish I would have known how bad, how much pain she was actually in. Especially since she functioned at a six or an eight-pain level on opioids, and here she was off cold turkey. To go from six to twelve like she said, doubling her pain. I have no doubt. I wasn’t thinking. I had never dealt with any pain that severe, chronically, all the time. Because I was out of answers, I was still, I didn’t know what to do I said, “I think it would be best if you stayed with your mom.” Because once again I still thought I was a lot of the cause for pain, and the environment I was working in. She loved going to her mom’s, because like I said, it was an oasis up there. I said “Hey, I think it would be a good idea if you stayed with your mom for a while” and all hell broke loose. Like, all hell broke loose. She thought I was abandoning her. She thought I wanted a divorce, which was farthest form the truth. I was just trying to save her life. I was out of answers. Certainly, going back to the Pain Management Clinic wasn’t the answer. So, her pain and what I said. I didn’t know what to do. I shouldn’t have probably said that I should’ve at least probably waited until we got home to sit down and have a good face to face, what’s are next step type thing. While instead, she completely, I mean lucid is the only word that I can think of. She just went off. Long story short we’re driving down the road fifty-five miles per hour, and she opens the door. She says, “I just want to kill myself.” So, I hit the brakes, like oh my god what are you doing. She jumps out of the car. She’s walking down the middle of the road, so I’m like oh my gosh. So, I dial 911. I’m like, “Get out of the road please.” She’s like, “I just want to die. I hope a car hits me and kills me.” I’m freaking out, I don’t even understand what’s going on. So, I’m driving down in middle of the road to try to stop anybody coming from behind us or to alert anyone coming toward us that she’s in the road. I roll my window down, yell get off the road. So, she finally gets off the road and I’m calling 911. You guys need to send somebody right now because there’s going to be a fatality. I’m on the phone with 911 and they’re sending people this way. Now she’s off to the side of the road and I’m driving along with her so she can’t run onto the road again. I say get in the car, just please get in the car, and she comes up and she gets in the driver side passenger. She gets in and I don’t even know what I’m witnessing. Her emotions are so up, gone through the roof, and now she’s just beating on the back of the seat. I’m waiting for her to come around and hit me. I’m just like please don’t hit me type thing. So, we’re driving along, and I’ve never seen her like this. What it was, was just her pain was out of control. We get back in through Belding and were getting back home. We get to the road and slow down and she jumps out of the car again and what I was worried about was I was like when we turned down our road, I was like crap I don’t want to let her in the house ya know there’s knives and you know other things there that she can hurt herself with, so now I was like trying to go slow she jumps out of the car again, she runs into the weeds- I can’t see her cause the - the switch grass is is way above her height, so now there’s like the main road 6 �and then our road so i'm turning down our road and that’s when she jumps out, so now I’m like im worried that shes going to run back up to the highway, so I'm like staying up by the highway, you know making sure she doesn’t try running out running out up- up on the highway so I’m calling 911 again and I’m like where are you guys? You know, and I said by the way you know please send a female officer because I’m not going to have a male officer you know try to restrain her and say that she’s fighting or- or she assaulted a male officer. I said you guys do not understand what’s going on and, so I immediately requested a female officer and they said that there was a female state police officer that was- farther away then then then than I wanted to hear but, so I’m trying to figure out where she is, I don’t know where she is, so I was like maybe she went back to the house which is just like three tenths of a mile down our road off the main road we live on a dirt road. So I start going down the road toward my house and here she comes out of our driveway kinda like cuts across the yard and she’s in my son's car now. So full size chevy impala and now we're coming right at each other and I’m like oh my gosh so I'm liketrying to like get in the middle of the road but I don’t wanna cause a head on collision either and she gets by me. And now she’s you know driving down the road so I’m like you know asking for an ambulance, I’m asking for you know female trooper and and stuff. Well so I get on 911 again and and they’re you know flying down the- she’s flying down the road so we get to the corner of our Johnson road and M-44 and the ambulance passes us, I’m like hey tell the ambulance to turn around we're right here. So she’s going back into town and, I think the police are finally starting to converge and she pulls into a dollar general store and [brief pause] parks. and she’s got the windows rolled up, she won’t roll the window down the ambulance parks across the street, they can't help in any way until the scene is cleared. so they make sure they're not going to get- be put in harm's way. At some point I picked up my neighbor, I picked him up at my house, but I don’t remember how or when at some point. But anyway, he’s an attorney and I’m- he’s like what’s going on? She came back from the doctor and they taken her off opioids cold turkey and, you know I think just her pain is through the roof right now and she’s just so lucid that she is completely out of it. So the female officer shows up and I just told them I said look don’t be going hands on I said I don’t want her to get accused of you know resisting or fighting a officer or something and she had taken her wedding ring off and she threw it down and somehow it bounced right under the center of her car- of the car that she was in. At some point she had called her mom and her mom came all the way from Sparta and picked her up and they just let her go and didn’t really even question her and I was just- I just wanted to get her help, and you know I told the officers I said listen she’s- you guys are well aware of the opioid crisis right now and I said, you know she just got back and they completely have taken her off opioids cold turkey and and so on and so forth. So, that day literally was- so that was 2018 that day was pretty much the last time we were together kind of officially, and while it hurt to know that you know- and everything went sideways from there. You know I was you know I had abandoned her I- you know so on and so forth. But, I felt like I saved her life for that point. At least she had a full time caregiver there and her mom there every day. To you know, to try and get some answers. Well so now I kinda go into this, I’m still trying to figure out what’s going on and I’m praying, I'm like lord you have got to show me what is killing this family, it doesn’t make sense. Well interestingly, my neighbor who lived right behind me in Belding was a Vietnam veteran. He would come at me sideways just like my father-in-law. I had the epiphany, wait a minute [brief 7 �pause] the Vietnam veteran that lives right behind me was suffering from agent orange, that’s a neurotoxin, PFAS is also a neurotoxin that’s when I made the connection. That was the epiphany that I had, and so that’s when I really started diving into- and that’s when the wolverine worldwide started the PFAS contamination there was really starting to blow up and take off, so then I stared entrenching myself into figuring out what was going on and I knew that had to be it, I knew that had to be it. There was no other explanation. You got all this- you know her father died of cancer, her mom had heart issues, her daughter has all kinds of autoimmune issues, her brother developed lupus, and her brother acts the same way as his dad- as her dad. And so then I went out to the dam that’s right next to their house. The same PFAS foam that is occurring in downtown Rockford was occurring right here at the dam, I called Mark Worell the geologist from Eagle,got them down there, they witnessed it. I contacted Gram Peesley who is a professor from the university of Notre Dame. he used to live in Kent County and he said me these awesome little filter caps that they developed, you just screw them on the end of a the end of a 2 liter bottle and poke a hole in it and let the water drain out. He sent me these filters. I went to the dam, I took the filters he said in one of my samples the fluorine which is the indicator of PFAS was like two thousand parts per trillion, it was off the charts, so I was like finally I’m putting together. But I called- I called Varnum the law firm that is representing everybody in this PFAS lawsuit against Wolverine Worldwide and that said well that’s not a known area. So then I started diving into it more they just completely ignored me and so then the map that I sent you of Algoma township be- that the map of Algoma township Scwall lake buts up right against it and if your going to drop or, your toxic sludge you take it away from as far away from the plant as you can, but still stay in the same township. They could have literally been backing their trucks up to Scwall lake and dumping that PFAS stuff right into it. You know this has been going on 50’s 60’s 70’s and back in the day Scwall lake was such a excluded lake there was maybe a two track to it people walk down to go fishing DD: Mhm LC: So, you know I haven’t been able to prove that, but the health affects the PFAS foam at the dam that runs over from the tributary comes out of Scwall lake. They all witnessed that, I went and testified at the forum for eagle and you know I told- and by the way i've tried to tell my wife at the time were now divorced, but I tried saving our marriage I tried saving- i’m like listen you know stop drinking the water get your blood tested, and it was like it was a joke. Oh, yea that was it is, well how do you explain your dad’s cancer. Oh, just bad luck, you know you can’t reason with them. Look, you have all these health issues and by the way by the grace of God 2019, she’s living with her mom, and she messages her on her way home from work saying I’m on my way home from work do we need anything type thing and I think you know her mom responded to her. She walks in and her mom is unresponsive on the floor, she had had a stroke. And this is yet another you know but by the grace of God, they found her on time my son had come home from college and helped and the paramedics arrived and got her there in time and and she was at my son's baseball game two days later and you know by the grace of God you know her life was saved too. So I, through all this it's just I've been trying to save lives of my own family and try and figure out what’s going on and I finally started connecting the dots and putting two and two together, but I still feel like I have nowhere to go. 8 �DD: Mhm LC: People that I do reach out to they’re like well we haven’t found any proof there you know then I bring Eagle out they see the proof then COVID hits, and nobody has resources to do a further investigation. You know meanwhile I have completely lost the relationship with my son you know and i'll say in all of this. This chemical is the most evil thing that anybody could be subjected to through all of this and all of the research that I have done dealing with my family, what I have learned is to recognize those people who have been affected by PFAS. I can literally go through life and when I meet somebody the bells and whistles go off in my head as indicators of, I think that person has been affected by PFAS. I met two individuals right here in the metro Detroit area and one of them was a firefighter, this guy is probably the worst case of PFAS exposure that I have ever seen I actually had a- I actually had an encounter with him that I recorded and I’m trying to get that to Gram Peesley I’ve reached out to Gram and said, Gram this is another insistence of you know PFAS exposure you know I’ve been wanting to try and get this Infront of individuals but this person is off the charts. They have admitted to having ingested this PFAS foam during training and it’s, I can’t explain it, it’s literally like talking to the devil. I don’t know how else to explain it. This PFAS is such an evil cruel chemical and what it does to the body, what it does to the mind, I coined a phrase and have no other way to explain it but its PFAS dementia. And, my family has it, you can’t reason with them. And it breaks my heart and and ya know and through all of this my faith has grown and there was times when I just wanted to give up and I was like I can’t fight this battle anymore especially alone and so on and so forth. Yeah, know I mentioned earlier, my son has been scouted by major league baseball since he was 17. Now it's 2021 and he is going to be entering major league baseball draft next month. And so, 18+ years of all the coaching and giving him my knowledge as I have played baseball my whole life, he won’t even talk to me. And is getting one side of the story from a mother who has PFAS dementia. And it’s breaking my heart, it's ripping my heart out. I asked his mom and all i said is, please tell our son and reach out to me this fathers’ days and I am sure I won’t hear from him. And, I don’t know, to be honest I don’t know why God has put me on this journey. While he has revealed to me what has caused this, he hasn’t revealed the answer how to get the help, how toand it’s so frustrating it's heartbreaking. And you know I- don’t know. You know unfortunately the corporate lobbying for these corporations that say that this isn’t a bad chemical and it’s not as bad as it you know Rob Ballot has proven that it is and just like in my testimony you know I said look Dark Waters there’s going to be a sequel to that movie and it’s going to be called dark you know darker water right here in Kent county and so my hope is- I hope that through my story you know which is a battle will be someone else’s survival guide because I would not wish this journey upon my worst enemy DD: Can you- can you tell me about any concerns that you have in particular about PFAS contamination moving forward? LC: So one of the big problems in Michigan is, we have allowed industry to build on waterways and discharge their waste water in rivers, lakes, and streams out of sight out of mind. While there is a concerted effort- and by the way 3M who created this or sells this chemical by the way has now gone into the water filtration business. So now they're making money from filtering the very 9 �water they helped contaminate. I mean it is what it is but we’ve got to get tough on this chemical. There is no if ands or buts about it and Michigan has made that step in the right direction, but we need the blood testing we need- you know look this these are human lives these are you know these are lives that are being destroyed and that has to be the focus. How can we help these individuals. Look I would love to be, you know a part of a bigger effort to help identify you know those that have been affected by PFAS. I have been exposed to it so much that I can literally recognize those that have, and if you don’t believe me, hey go get a blood test and prove me wrong. so that’s the big thing. DD: Mhm LC: We’ve got to get the blood test and from what I’ve heard my son’s mom who I still love her dearly I love her with all my heart and I’m glad that I was able to save her life, but our marriage was laid to waste because of this horrible toxin and and her health issues, but she’s finally going to get her blood tested I guess next month and you know i'm scared to see what type of exposure you know she has- you know been affected. And but I’ve tried to contact her brother. I just recently reached out to his wife and him and they won’t even talk to me. It's like wait a minute I have information that you know could help your health and find out what maybe- likely killed you father or caused your fathers cancer. And like I said I’m dealing with this PFAS dementia and its heart breaking it absolutely breaks my heart and [clears throat] I just I can’t express how evil of a chemical this is. Just you know if you see the movie dark waters and the farmer you know that farmer acts just like my father-in-law DD: Mhm LC: Not a happy individual RA RA RA all the time you know that was literally I literally could plug my family member into that movie into different characters in that movie. But we’ve got to get the blood testing we have got to stop letting companies like downplay this chemical, this is no joke. If you watched the documentary on YouTube, the devil we knew it is, it’s the devil. It’s the most evilest toxin and now it’s in our rain water and it's not good, it’s not good. DD: Well, thank you so much Larry for taking the time to share your story today LC: I appreciate it, it feels good to finally tell my story so you know I thank you for providing a platform and you know please if there’s resources that come across that you come across, please send them my way. But I’m in metro Detroit area now and I’m kind of out of the loop with regard to you know Kent county area so please let me know what going on and and if there’s you know someone that can listen to me and listen to my story and and can potentially help, You know please send them my way because you know I’m afraid my sons affected by this too and you know I know all the family member have. Look I’ve lived there for awhile you know I’m certain that I have been affected too. I want to get my blood tested to you know see what type of exposure that I have been in to but I you know thank God. One thing I want to point out too is stress seems to be a big trigger in this PFAS exposure in men more so than women. It seems that stress is a real trigger point in men. In women it really just tends to really subdue them. It’s pretty heartbreaking so we’ve got to do the blood testing. Just like in the movie where they were literally paying individuals to get their blood tested. I would be thrilled if we could do something 10 �like that, because this has got to be taken care of. Look we are in a water wonderland and like I said in my like I said in my testimony in front of Eagle you know if these sights could be illuminated Michigan would be lit up light a christmas tree. DD: Mhm LC: That's no joke, they have confirmed well over 100 PFAS contaminations sites in Michigan so I’m certain it’s just the tip of the iceberg, but we have got to get the blood tests. Throughout the state of Michigan there needs to be a regular blood test. If you feel like you have been exposed to PFAS you should be able to come in and get your blood tested, no if ands or buts. If you know if everyone wants to say how much of a pandemic covid is, PFAS is a pandemic right in our state, and and it’s growing it’s getting worse DD: Thank you Larry. LC: Thank you, I appreciate your time and appreciated your efforts and please keep in touch with me 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0016 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Campbell, Larry Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-18 Title A name given to the resource Larry Campbell, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Larry Campbell lived most of his life in Belding, Michigan. In this interview, Campbell discusses the impact of PFAS on the health of his wife and family. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29e74ae2cbcbbd32c0975fb437c08e2e.mp4 0bf5e3bef3799a6a1622dc00e27a71cf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ded1b5182f5895b2e11bd487afe22af.pdf 87dbf7a9b54bb397a7a7588c9d61781a PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Emily Donovan Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: June 18, 2021 DD: I’m Dani De Vasto and today June 18, 2021 I have the pleasure of chatting with Emily Donovan, hi Emily. ED: Hi. DD: Emily can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live. ED: Yeah, so I am originally from South Carolina. I'm currently living in North Carolina and I’ve been a resident of North Carolina for, little over half my life now. I live in Brunswick county, so I live in a town, Leland, we’re right outside of Wilmington. And we’ve been here for going on almost twelve–over twelve years now. DD: Ok, Emily can you please tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? ED: Yeah, so three years after moving to this area my husband started losing his eyesight and we didn’t know what was happening. We were terrified, we thought he was going to go blind. He had an MRI and this was around our ten year anniversary because he did the MRI and then we went on vacation, and I just remember that experience as having this kind of dark cloud looming over us. We get back and we find out that he had a brain tumor and it needed to be removed immediately or he would lose his vision permanently. So we did all the things, found a really amazing neurosurgeon, got the tumor removed and miraculously his vision was fully restored. We met with the surgeon six months after the surgery and the surgeon just looked at us–and this was literally the world's best skull based neurosurgeon, he was from Japan and had a teaching facility at Duke university, and he looks at us, and he’s like I’m good but I’m not that good. [Chuckles] That is–that is God and I had always kept that memory. I mean it was a very traumatic experience for our family but at the same time, just remembered that miracle because you hear about them but you don’t ever feel like you–would you recognize one if it happened to you. So that happened and then we fast forward to 2017 which was probably five years maybe six years later and I wake up and–actually it was in June, and so wake up to a news story that there’s a chemical plant upstream of Wilmington and they’ve been dumping large quantities of PFAS into the Cape Fear River, which it turns out is our drinking water supply. I didn’t know any of this so I start doing all of this research and like everyone else in our community, we're scrambling and we’re pulling together and we’re sharing information, and we’re reaching out to scientists. And I can’t help but wonder if what caused my husband's brain tumor was tied to these industrial chemicals that have no business being in tap but were in our tap water. And not just in questionable amounts these are insanely large amounts. I think a scientist did a study of a sample that he had taken in 2014 at the–the kind of the height of the contamination and one hundred and thirty thousand parts per trillion was recorded. It’s still questionable in my mind, it's 1 �unclear, was that just the PFAS’s that he could detect with where science is at right now, because the one thing that we are learning too, is that these labs can’t fully detect all of the PFAS, because they don’t have analytical standards for them. So there’s still this question mark of how much we were exposed to. It also was–it also started coming more into focus you know not just of what happened to my husband but, you know, my daughter’s childhood best friend. Her mother had breast cancer, at a very young age. She was in the military and then lived in this area. Her parents both developed rare blood cancers or diseases within months of each of other, and we were all living in the same neighborhood. And then I at the time was a youth director at a very small church and in our program I would you know end every evening that we met with prayer requests, and I just started realizing that we were praying for some very serious problems in these teenagers' lives. A father who had terminal brain cancer, bone and brain cancer. A mother who had colon cancer. A sister or a brother who had intestinal disorder and was so severe that he was hospitalized. So there was just all of these things, there was a kid in my youth group who didn’t even know his mother because she died of breast cancer before he was–right when he was born and so you know I just started looking around and this seems like too much disease, too much illness. I didn’t even have to go outside my inner circle to hear stories. And that just kind of resonated with me and furthered solidified that something needed to be done. Someone needs to speak up, so I helped–I was part of a group that formed in our region called Clean Cape Fear and we are a grass roots all volunteer coalition and we have just focused on trying to hold elected leaders, government bodies, and pretty much everyone including ourselves accountable. With a focus on making sure the polluter pays, and in this case the chemical company was DuPont which then spun off to Chemours. DD: And how is that work going? ED: It's been a really interesting journey, and I think–I feel like things are going good but you know I have very high standards of what I think a resolution should be. I think, you know, in a perfect world this chemical company, regardless of its name, should be making communities whole again. For the devastation and harm they caused, and we still don’t have safe drinking water. My tap water, our utilities, still record some of the highest levels of PFAS in the finished water that comes out of my tap, in the nation. But my work, what I’ve done is, I’ve testified before Congress twice. I testified in August of 2018 and then again in July of 2019. I organized to bring community members with me in July 2019 and meet with representatives, and that was a really positive experience. The community members that came convinced our local congressional representatives to cosponser the PFAS Action Act and make it a bipartisan bill. I know they weren’t the only ones that made it a bipartisan bill there were others, but that was positive to see that happen. We also, when we formed Clean Cap Fear, we–the first thing we did was host the first ever public forum on GenX. Because GenX is what was in the news it was supposed to be the PFOA [Perfluorooctanoic Acid] replacement. So everyone’s like what’s GenX and then we come to find out that really it’s not just GenX but it's all PFAS. So I think one positive thing that my group has done is we’ve shifted the focus away from a chemical by chemical approach and we’ve changed the narrative to let's talk about this class of chemistry. We really worked hard and intentional to do that. We noticed early on, one of the things when we sat around this dinning room table and were figuring out what we needed to do as a community. We realized that information was important and getting accurate information, that the chemical industry for–not just the chemical industry, but industry in general has a play book. We see it 2 �with tobacco and we see it with oil and gas and the same thing is happening with these chemicals, is that they play this game of hiding the information and making–casting doubt and making it really difficult for communities to advocate for themselves so we felt it was important to really bridge that gap of reliable information and so we focused on having public forums because there was so much silence and confusion and a lot of misinformation getting spread online, and we’re like let’s get scientists in front. Let's get scientists and medical experts, let's get the experts in front of the community and have some good conversations, and that's exactly what we did and in fact this is the–last week was the four year anniversary of our first public forum on GenX. So I don’t know, I mean obviously I don’t know if other forums were happening around the world in GenX, but I would like to think we were the first ever globally [laughter] on GenX. But it was a powerful standing room only event. DD: Wow. ED: And from that we had a second event and our second event was focused on equity and making sure this–that the information was communicated to all communities. Communities of color, low income communities, communities with English as a second language, and so we brought in a lot of nonprofits on our second forum and we made sure that everyone was networking and working together. That public officials, that the water utilities were working with the homeless community to just make sure that everyone understood. Hey, you know what, maybe we need to be careful about our tap water and we need to figure out how to get everybody access to what we feel is safe and comfortable drinking water. And then our third forum was really focusing in on the science and so we brought in a lot of scientific experts from the universities in North Carolina that had unlocked, uncovered or had been working on PFAS. And so they just really got into the weeds on that forum and by that time the media had caught on, and the media was starting to host their own public forums and so we were–there was just like a public forum on PFAS every week. And so by that point we felt like we had really initiated a concept and so we didn’t feel that we needed to host any more public forums so we just stepped back and let those continue. And so we started focusing on just network building, and alliance building, and coalition building and also just holding public leaders accountable and making sure that they did what they said they were going to do and not just talk a certain way and then act a different way. And so we’ve always just tried to maintain that perspective. Some other things that I’m really–you know I’m really proud of some of the work that we’ve done, is that we brought Mark Rufflo to town and we hosted two “Dark Waters” screening events, and so I worked really hard to make that happen. And we had–I did a ton of lobbying in D.C. and [chuckles] this isn’t even my job, I have a day job. My day job was working for–you know, building up a youth ministry, and I say was in the past tense because right before the pandemic in the beginning of January 2020, I actually retired from youth ministry and then I started working in communications for another local church so I’m still in the faith community. I just kind of shifted my gears away from doing teenage ministry more into helping communicate, with– digitally, with the church. So–but anyways in all of that I do this on the side [chuckles] this is kind of like my ministry and I think that’s what was happening is that I couldn’t really keep doing all of this, so I had to figure out what to do. So it kind of goes back to, that miracle that I felt my family had experienced when my husband’s eyesight was fully restored. It should have never been–he has twenty-twenty vision and we can’t explain it. And so I do feel that I have been called into this space to bring–to be the conscience and the humanity for society and remind 3 �public leaders that there’s a reason why you are elected. To remind scientists that the work is for the people, you know–that yes the betterment of humanity, and all aspects of humanity and that this work, you know even into the chemical industry to you know have a soul and make things right [chuckles]. So this is kind of the space that I keep trying to remind myself that I feel called to be in. I’ve also just done a–I know I didn’t go into to great of detail about the screening events but some really positive change that came from both of those events is that we got our attorney general to file a lawsuit against DuPont and Chemours seeking natural resources damages for the state. We’re kind of following up to see where that's at right now, because again there’s that accountability piece. And then we also saw the most PFAS legislation filed in the state legislature this cycle then we have seen ever, then we saw in 2018 when the legislature was supposed to be at the peak of our contamination story. So I really think that was a direct result of those screening events. So, North Carolina legislature woke up a bit about it. Unfortunately, North Carolina legislature did not progress the bills that were filed, so there was some really fantastic representatives in the house who filed some really good, thoughtful bills, and the party in control of the General Assembly right now, the Republican Party, did not move them out of the rules committee and so refused to advance them, and that has been really dissatisfying to watch. But again until we could convince the community that this is a voting topic, and not just our community, because our community is very aware that this is a voting topic, but it's the rest of North Carolina. We’re stuck, and we’re also know that behind the scenes the North Carolina Manufacturing Alliance which is the main hub that Chemours operates through is doing some heavy funding to make sure that their interests are maintained. So it's been a very eye opening experience to see how money flows through politics, to see how industry can capture public bodies, and can capture elected officials. But then also how industry can just capture the scientific narrative too, and so that has been an interesting experience. DD: Can you say any more about the kinds of legislation that were trying to be forwarded? ED: Yeah there was a Polluter Pays Bill, a local representative, Deb Butler, she had sponsored a Polluter Pays and basically it would have required any responsible party that put PFAS into a public source of drinking water was responsible for making sure that the utilities could filter it out. And so not putting the burden on the ratepayers, and it was pretty much a very specific bill that would have helped not just the Wilmington area because there are three utilities that have been impacted not–three utilities and three hundred thousand residents are impacted by this, but there’s also communities upstream along the Haw River that feeds into the Cape Fear River and Pittsboro, and their water district has high levels of PFAS that almost–I mean they’re just as high as our levels here, and that’s coming from the textile industry in Burlington, North Carolina, and so the concern is making sure that industry is being held accountable for what they’re dumping into these public bodies of water, because we can’t filter them out easily it requires very advanced technology to filter it out of the drinking water, and that’s very expensive. And as it stands right now Pittsboro residents, Brunswick county residents, CFPUA residents, Cape Fear Public Utility Authority, which is–it which services New Hanover county and Wilmington residents and then portions of Brunswick county residents are all having to pay for upgrades themselves because Chemours is refusing to do it voluntarily. That’s the big one, it did not go forward, and it did not have bipartisan support even with some–there’s republican representatives in our district who live in this contaminated area and they didn’t cosponsor–one of them didn’t cosponsor it. It was really odd like [laughter] this is why–what are your–who do 4 �you want to pay for this, it’s a real problem, and they’re just–yeah, there’s just no explanation for why he wouldn’t champion it or wouldn’t co-sponsor it. Because we had the Brunswick County representatives, our both republicans and they both co-sponsored it, they were like we’re on board [chuckles] so it just is such a bizarre situation. There were some other bills that would band–band PFAS and firefighting foam and that bill, I worked really hard with the state level coalitions to introduce that bill back in 2019 and it did not progress on in 2019. And I don’t know why because in Congress, Congress has already banned PFAS and firefighting foam, the military will no longer be using it. So it’s banned immediately from I believe training, and it will be banned completely from use by 2024, I’m not like–I can’t remember, I think that’s the date but I’m not sure. So the writings on the wall it’s inevitable, the military’s already doing it. Everybody sees how expensive it is to keep using this product, it’s a huge liability for the military, our military bases, it's a huge liability for municipalities to keep using it, so it seems like a no brainer North Carolina should actually pass this bill and go ahead and just fall in line with where the world is headed and they refuse to. The bill got resubmitted this past year and it was resubmitted by the Republicans but only as a lets catalog an inventory on firefighting foam. So it was not a firefighting band bill, it was a let’s have the state fire marshals create an inventory tracking system so they know exactly where it is but let's not touch–let’s let it still being used, and so that was just a little bizarre to me. There was movement in the house to get the bill to add banning it from training. So the house did eventually agree and pass their version that said fire fighting foam or AFFF would be banned from training and that was a modest win. But again it should be banned completely, especially when we see the military’s doing it. The Senate is debating it, and it’s my understanding that it's not going anywhere right now, but I haven’t checked in recently to see what the Senate side is doing. So this bill hasn’t been–it hasn’t fully passed, it hasn’t been signed by a governor yet. Other things, the only piece of legislation if we’re going back to 2018, so we found out in 2017 in June about our contamination. 2018 was when bills were submitted, and the only bill that got approved was this Water Safety Act Bill, and basically it gave the state agencies five million doallas to address PFAS. Compare that to Michigan, Michigan spent fifty million and North Carolina has like–DuPont and Chemours here, and they could–they only wanted to spend five million, and by the way North Carolina has a billion dollar rainy day fund. Like–is it a billion–I will have to double check, they have a massive rainy day fund and, they have the money, like there’s money they can use, it’s not that we’re a poor state at all, we're not. They just didn’t you know didn’t want to spend the money. That money was used, I believe–here’s where I have to like, I don’t want to misspeak, because I can’t remember everything that that bill incorporated, but it was modest, and it gave them–it gave money to establish a group the PFAS network which is North Carolina, education–like universities that are all supposed to start studying PFAS but the problem with doing that is that it didn’t give the state agencies like DEQ [Department of Environmental Quality] and DHHS [Department of Health and Human Services] authority to regulate. So even if the big thing that came from it is that they gave these independent scientists money to go and sample all the water supplies in North Carolina to find out where PFAS was, and so that’s good, we kind of want to be able to see it. But they wrote it in a way where they didn’t want utilities, they didn’t want any research to be done on the finished tap water only on the raw water. So it's just raw water sources that are being tested. And that’s fine that that’s being tested but DEQ can’t regulate off of any of that testing. So our DEQ said we still need a chain of command, we still have to do testing of our own in order to regulate. So that’s great that you’re letting us know but we’re still going to have to spend money and do our own work. So, it was kinda just like this silly–I mean I don’t want to 5 �call it silly because it’s great work what the scientists are doing, and the scientists just did some phenomenal work because they looked at more than just five or six, they were looking at, let’s open it up and do a wide view, you know a wide view and find out what we're seeing. So that was important for us to kind of see where it is, that was public surface water, I think they were then going to start looking at ground water across the state which is a little more tricky. And so I think they are working on that right now, but again in all of that in these four years the state of North Carolina still has not officially regulated PFAS. We do not have any drinking water standards for PFAS, we don’t have any surface water or groundwater standards for PFAS, we don’t have–any discharge limits or regulations set for PFAS. So nothing has been done in four years. On, officially and legally and that is frustrating because this is really just feeling like they’re running out the clock. It shouldn’t be that difficult to say, hey lets do something. There’s been a lot of back and forth on well, the federal government should do it, or the state government should do it. And there’s been a lot of waffling, and the most interesting thing is that the head of our EPA now was the head of North Carolina’s DEQ so secretary Regan, Michael Regan is now administrator of the EPA. Michael Regan–and super excited to see what he is going to do, and no one knows more about PFAS probably than he does, with his experiences here in North Carolina. The concern being will he act on PFAS because North Carolina was such a tricky place to be and we still don’t have regulations in North Carolina, will get regulations out of his EPA at the federal level. So there’s a lot of questions there and one other thing that I’ve done is I’ve partnered with center for environmental health, and we filed a petition to the EPA last year too [unclear here] to do human health and toxicity studies on fifty four PFAS that we documented we were exposed to either through our food, water, our air supply, or was in our blood. And the previous administration denied the petition and so we resubmitted the petition to the Biden administration, and we’re waiting to hear back and we also filed suit. So we are poised to go to court with the EPA regardless of you know which administration, just to show that this is something we feel should have been done. These chemical companies should be forced, or should be showing the toxicity data on anything that they make before they release it into the air, or the water, the soil, the food supply, you know this is just–it makes sense. You know you should have to get permission before you dump, not afterwards, but we understand that, the past is the past so let's fix it now. And it's my understanding that Chemours is actively fighting this. And so again it seems like Chemours says one thing publicly and then does one thing privately. Which is that they fight, they fight all these lawsuits there–my water district and Wilmington water district has been in an active lawsuit with Chemours for the last two or three years to get them to pay for utility upgrades, and they’re actively fighting it. And we are–and my coalision is working to get Chemours to pay for human health studies for the ones–the PFAS that we can document we were exposed to and they’re actively fighting against it [chuckles] so it's been a really not surprising journey because we knew they would play this game. But I know–what I think is interesting is will the agencies step up and do right by the public, you know who–what entities are they here to serve. Are they here to serve corporations or are they here to serve the American public, the taxpayers that pay for them because we are realizing that corporations don’t always pay their taxes, or you know find funny way to not pay taxes, but I’m paying taxes [chuckles], so I’d love to see this work for me, so. DD: So, you’ve hinted at this a little bit, but maybe you could say a little bit more. What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? 6 �ED: Oh-gosh, this is where I get sad. Sorry [sniffle]. DD: I’m sorry. ED: Will I wake up one day and find out that something is wrong with my kids. And it was related to doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing as a parent, giving them water. You know our pediatrician–every time we would visit the pediatrician, they were like giving us–you know encourage to drink water, encourage to drink water, and you know we did that, oh my gosh my children love water. And for the last four years they have been afraid to drink water at their school. So you know there’s– I’m worried–yeah like I just don’t know–there’s mother doubt you know. Why didn’t we have a filter on our sink just as a precaution. There’s rage of why should we have a filter on our sink just as a precaution. And then there's an aching heart for those who simply can’t have filters because they can’t afford them. But like I see and read and talk to so many people that have to choose. They’re like I can’t keep buying bottled water, or I can’t keep filtering this out and keep paying for my utility bill. You know and so then there's this over rationalization of maybe it’s not that bad, maybe this isn’t an issue. But it gets kind of alarming when you read the studies and you see what the effects are, and the information is still emerging. So that’s the biggest one is, will we wake up in five or ten years and have major medical issues because we’ve had so many in the past, and that trauma comes back to the forefront of I don’t want to deal with another trauma, another medical problem, because it was really hard. I mean we got through it, people have been through worse, you know like I get that. This is avoidable, this is preventable, there is a solution to this problem, and it's just people having the courage to stand up and do the right thing so that’s what I worry about. Oh, there was one other thing, that, that I did that I am proud of that has been successful, is that we finally got two–we petitioned two school boards. I participated in an environmental working group tap water study and I pulled water from my children’s public school and it ended up being the top. The top of the study, and it ended up being an underreported moment because we get our water from the river so the levels fluctuate. So, when EWG [Environmental Working Group] called me and said you're at the top of this list and by a lot, I was like [we're by a lot?]. I was like okay so we had the highest levels in our tap water in my children’s schools and that’s not even a full representation of what I know is in the tap water. Because they used a commercial lab and our utility is also looking for Chemours compounds that weren’t included in that so. So we are always reporting higher than what some people will test for, and so I took that information to Wilmington–[or New Hanover?]county’s school board and I took it to Brunswick county school board and I got them to install reverse osmosis filling stations in all of their schools. So forty nine public schools at the start of last school year had reverse osmosis filling stations in every school so that children and teachers and staff could access healthy drinking water and its–I’m proud of it but I’m frustrated because Chemours should be doing that. You know and here a mom in Brunswick country you know whose [son and school teachers is begging people?]to do it. So, I’m happy it's done but sometimes it's bittersweet, but the person that’s doing it, you know it shouldn’t be just me, it shouldn’t be just my group, and by the way it wasn’t just me. I have a really fantastic team of supporters–a leadership team that I work with–so yeah again I have to state that it is not just me this whole Clean Cap Fear is a collaborative effort, and there is a lot of people who make the work I couldn’t do it alone. 7 �DD: For sure. Before we wrap up today, is there anything else you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on or anything that you want to go back to and say more about? ED: No, I could talk for hours about this [laughter]. It’s been a long journey, it's been a good journey. I do want to mention too that the national PFAS contamination coalition, this is–that has been really great group to be connected to. It’s other community groups just like mine across the country dealing with similar contamination stories. Whether it's industrial or military and I’m just grateful to lean on them because I think this whole experience is–it can get isolating if you think you’re doing it alone. You know and advocates are stronger when they can collaborate, and it's been really great to have that network of support. And so I think that is the biggest takeaway from this, is that coalition building has really worked, locally, we have a really strong coalition. There's a strong coalition at the state level and then this national coalition to be a part of so it's been a really, really important for emotional health and mental health when you're going through a contamination crisis and you’re trying to advocate for better solutions. DD: Absolutely, thank you so much Emily for taking the time to share your story today. ED: I appreciate it, thank you for having me. 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0015 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donovan, Emily Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-18 Title A name given to the resource Emily Donovan, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Emily Donovan is originally from South Carolina, but has lived in North Carolina, near Wilmington, for almost 12 years. In this interview, Emily discusses how her husband's sudden loss of sight led doctors to identify a tumor. A few years later, the Wilmington area was identified as a PFAS contaminiation site. Since then Emily has been involved in community action for PFAS awareness. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/835f596e5eb8810210894883ec763fce.mp4 03a2950ef7ee29900c697d3e246d58d3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a3cce8690989967f6a0ee74d6c58774.pdf be01b589b452f4d45609ad4a0ca3ea34 PDF Text Text Living With PFAS Interviewee: Linda Robles Interviewer: Dani Davasto Date: June 16, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and today, June 16, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Linda Robles. Hi Linda. LR: Hi. DD: Linda, can you tell me about where you’re from, and where you currently live? LR: I am from Tucson, Arizona, and I live within the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. Grew up all my entire life in the central Tuscan southside area. DD: How long have you lived within the base? LR: I have lived here all my life. Yeah. DD: That’s a long time. LR: Fifty-eight years. Yeah, it’s been a very long time. This is my home. DD: Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? LR: Yes, 2017- I mean, I’m sorry- 2003- my daughter became very ill. She-she passed away in 2007. I kind of thought that it might be related to the water contamination that started way back in 1980s. Well, around 2014, after my daughter's death in 2007, I became even more concerned that not only my daughter was ill in the community, so were many other children sick in the area, and then- all my other children and now my grandchildren have become- have been born with some kind of birth defect or later on got very sick. So, it-it was-it was- was the worst thing that could ever happen to a family. The experiences- the- I mean, the whole living a life like that was horrific. It was- it’s been a nightmare. Hospitals, surgeries, the-the costs, you know, and all the impacts, all the effects, all the burdens, they-they were very heavy on me. Unfortunately, you know, we did lose my daughter and one of my grand- my youngest daughter is in her end stages right now of kidney failure. My granddaughter continues to have these terrible relapses of kidney disease since she was two-years-old. She’s now going on fifth grade. She’s missed a lot of school and all that but- So my experience was around 2014. I gave birth to the Mothers Safe Water Force. At that time, after- soon after when I started- I started conducting a series of public health assessments, you know, and-and just organizing the community. I was in touch with the centers for environmental health and justice. Louis Gibbs, of course, and then- those people who just started teaching me and just really training me, and telling me, you know, and just kind of just helping me learn how to organize. I didn’t even know what to do. When I found out that the contamination I thought was cleaned up since 20- since 1980s was still a problem in our community, and then worse to find out that there was two new chemicals that were emerging, evolving safe drinking 1 �water standards and that- changing remediation methods. I did start doing the door knocking. I wanted to know. The health department and water companies and all the people involved, the EPA. You can imagine our site is a two part-and their part- is a two-part site. So, one of those sites is a military site as well, and then the other one is not. So it’s-it’s very complicated system to try to understand for an everyday mom. But I found out and I learned. I was determined. I wanna know why all these people are sick. Are we sicker than others? And come to find out we were. I began conducting these house surveys, door knocking, assessing the community, and people were just sending their surveys by mail. I mean it- the word just got out. Before you knew it, we were no longer the Mothers for Safe Water Force. We became the Environmental Justice Community Movement. All the community members, I mean, we started organizing- before you knew it we had thousands of people supporting it. Yeah, I mean, we filled up the ball rooms. We filled up thethe libraries. I mean, everywhere we went to have meetings, they were full packed. Where they were maxed. Where librarians had to tell people, “sorry we can not let you in.” You know. People were radical on Tucson Southside. I mean, they were getting radical. They wanted to know the same things I wanted to know. Because all along we thought they cleaned it up in the 1980s. We didn’t even know what a super fungicide was. DD: Uh-huh. LR: Yeah, so, then like I said, all these big organizations- all these big- you know these big government officials- they were dodging. I mean, they just didn’t even want to talk to me. Especially, when I was marching. We started marching in front of the offices. We started protesting in front of the schools. We just started- just doing one movement to another. Just pushing and pushing and pushing for PFAS regulations, PFAS, you know, investigation. And yeah- and that’s how we became the Environmental Justice Task Force. And still to this day now, it seems that everything I said in the beginning- because I did my research, I did my studies, I knew exactly where the pollution was- reporters were coming to me to find out. U of A, stu- you know, students were coming to me because I have a lot of information. How can somebody that dropped out in the fifth grade because I was just young, you know. I- I grew up on a ranch with my family, and we had horses- how can someone like that know, you know, know this type of work and I learned. And I- and I found was- those- those disproportionately higher rates of cancer in our community. The data wasn’t a lie. Our underground action tells the truth. DD: Mhmn. Mhmn. LR: That’s how we got the truth. DD: Yeah. LR: And-and to this day I am- I was not surprised that just a few weeks ago- we have been pushing for the governor to see- to address PFAS. We’ve been pushing the DOD to address PFAS. We’ve been pushing every government level to push for PFAS regulations. Stop the flow. Clean it up. Shut it down. That’s what you gotta do. So last week, we did get a report from the news media that the site will be shut down- not because it’s cleaned up. There’s not gonna a site closer because it’s a site completion and it's been cleaned up. It’s gonna close because it’s become too extreme due to PFAS exposures. 2 �DD: With all theLR: So, right now we are- Yeah. Sorry. DD: No, go ahead. Please. LR: Yeah, so right now we are forming a-a new project. We are standing in front of the schools again. We are protesting. We are just letting people know, again. Something’s in that water. Andand we’re getting them information about these issues and keeping people- getting- keeping people aware of the problem and just keep fighting until these people get some kind of justice. DD: So it sounds like you’ve been involved with a lot of different actions in the last several years. Have-have you had many successes? Or what-what has come of all these actions, in addition to the very important work of just getting information out? Has anything resulted for you? LR: Actually, yes. For the first project with Louise Gibbs, we were fighting to get the schools tested. This was before PFAS was exposed. We were pushing test for PFAS. Test the schools. Test for TCE. PAS dioxide. All those chemicals you found in that water, you go and test the schools. Federal and state facilities. Public water systems. All came back positive. And for PAS. That happened and I also- one of the things that I also was able to get- EPA to provide us with a technical assistant in 2018. This is when they were just talking a little bit about PFAS. You know, there wasn’t a lot of information they were going to give us about it, but they already knew they were there, they were showing up. They’ve been there since 2009, but that information really wasn’t coming to us. It was just between themselves. DD: Mhmn. LR: Another thing that I have done is that I have also become part of the PFAS National Coalition. Very happy to be a part of that group. We’ve been pushing for PFAS regulations on all PFAS as a class to the lowest levels, maximum contaminant levels, and also I have been part of the CDC PFAS generating committee. During a time where, you know, they have been planning on a multisite study. I’ve been really happy to be a part of that development for PFAS blood testing project multi-studies. And I’m really happy to be a part of that. Even though we were not a state picked for that-for that study- I have been part of this development and the birth of it. That- That’s okay. You know, and also, I have been able to just- to continue to support the project as well because right now we are holding polluters accountable and we feel that they should pay for the clean up. DD: And in your community, where is the pollution coming from? LR: The Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, the Tucson airport, A remediation project, known as the TARP, and also the Arizona Morris- Arizona International [Card?] base. Those are the main corporate sources. DD: Those three. 3 �LR: Yeah. DD: And can you tell me the original contamination that was being found in the water back in thein the 80s? That was- that was- what was that contamination? LR: So, in 1980s the 24 square mile area in our community was declared a super fungicide. It was placed on the National Priorities list in 1992, I believe. Since then, PFAS and deoxine were discovered. So that’s where we are right now. Currently with what EPA is saying about that clean up- that was a TCE contamination. Yes, and due to that, which included the Tucson International airport, and since then has become a steady project area. All under- under the super fun- whichwhich to me, is very disturbing because it’s done nothing for this community but has spread the contamination outwards. It started out as a three mile long plume. And- I mean, you are finding PFAS like that in Marana, the city of Marana. You’re finding it in the oil valley. And you have found it in over probably 90 zip codes at exceeding levels. Yeah. I mean, the city has unfortunately had to shut down many wells, city wells. They were also detected in the- some EPA and stateowned monitoring wells. Yeah. And I mean they’re just everywhere. They’re just everywhere, they’re just so persistent. These-these chemicals are so persistent. They’re worse than those little bugs flying around in your house going after the fruit. [Both laugh] LR: They’re just everywhere. Yeah. People are scared. People are stressing. People don’t know what to believe. People don’t know what to believe. You know, another thing that has been so unfortunate is that we have not had a lot of political support for the work. They have not acknowledged us. They- we’re really not the team of people- or the team- the group of people they like. We’ve been targeted to, you know. We’ve been lied about. You know- by-by big powerful people, you know, political people have done everything in their power to disempower our community too. You know, and-and to try to stop, you know, stop all this action and-and, you know, and they are kind of acknowledging other groups that are politically involved as the-the main people who are pushing when really it’s been us all along. Are- are com- This is where we gave birth. This is where all of this happened, you know, when the PFAS was exposed. It was because of the group and the community who took action. Who took action and started pushing and saying enough is enough. We’ve been lied to for too long now. We demand government transparency in this community because we were not given notice about these issues until way later when it was already too late. DD: Mhm. So what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? LR: I’m really concerned that, well, another thing that I'm really concerned about relating to the P- surrounding the PFAS is just that most states have already had their children tested, families tested, where PFAS has been found in public water systems. Our community is always last. Our state is always last. And that’s unacceptable to us. That should not be- we should not be the last all the time. You know? And-and I’m not saying the last in just the PFAS issue. We are always the last state for just about everything. Even during COVID. We were like the last. You know. You know? Yeah, you know. Always the last people- and states call us the wild west. You know. We are known for that because it’s just terrible. And I have a feeling it’s because we are a 4 �significant latino community. We are. That’s one of our largest challenges. And then, not only that, but we are- we also carry a high amount of immigrants- Mexican-American immigrants andand I believe that is one of our greatest challenges. DD: For the Tucson area specifically or Arizona the state? LR: Arizona the state. But yeah- but in Tucson alone we are a very significant- very significant population of immigrants. DD: Mhm hmn. LR: And yeah. So that’s really tough on us because the problem is underestimated. Those people are not being counted for. DD: Mhm hmn. LR: But now- Yeah. But we’ve- But we’ve had a lot of them that don’t let- you know what man I don’t care. I ain’t got my papers, man. I’m going to stand up with you guys, and you know what, we want this water cleaned up. We got our family here. We got, you know grass roots here. You know what- this is unacceptable. This is coming against the, [unclear]. You know, and-and this is how- latinos- when we get together, we fight together. We fall together and we get up together. And, and I believe that-that is very powerful. I love it. I love them. I love my people. You know, and it’s not just because- we are diverse. Our group is diverse. It’s just because by nature we are just living- we are a large population in the Arizona area. DD: Hmm. LR: That doesn’t give somebody- you know what I mean, that doesn’t give somebody- that oh they’re just a bunch of mexicans. They can wait. That’s not okay. DD: Well, it sounds likeLR: So, we haven’t been tested. We haven’t been tested for PFAS. That would be nice. DD: Have people pursued being tested on their own? LR: We are trying to. We are very poor. This is a very poor area. And in a more populated area, and [unclear] justice community area, so yeah, we-we got a lot of those, disproportionate, you know, on our side, you know, that-that- it’s not helping us. So what we are trying to do is just- we are trying to raise that money up. Car washes. Whatever we got to do. But- yeah. We were able to raise money during the Louis Gibbs project when we were fighting to get all the schools tested for PFAS and those chemicals, we were able to have car washes. You had 83-year-olds helping out at the car washes, you know? DD: Yeah. 5 �LR: Yeah. It was awesome. We raised enough money to hire our own private environmental engineers to oversee the work, and saw the work that they were doing in that town. And we hope that with this new project we can raise that money, not only just to test people, but to also raise enough money to provide them with clean water. We are demanding clean water. Safe water. Surprise. Whether you have to pry them from another state- bring them. We don’t want this water anymore. It’s- It’s not okay with us. DD: Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven’t touched on today or anything you would like to go back to and say more about? LR: If it’s possible, I would like to just touch up a little bit on the fact that another big challenge for us is that we don’t get a lot of social media interest. It’s really hard to get people- reporters and Channel Nine news, and those people. Because the polluters are all contracted with these newspapers. They’re also contracted with these- you know, to TV stations and reporters, so when we call them to come and talk to our community, that’s- that’s us. It never happens. If you mention Tucson Water, that they’re involved, they won’t even come out. They don’t wanna hear it. They favor them. And they- they believe what they hear from them. They don’t hear- they don’t want to hear the voice of the community, which are very important. Yeah. Some- we’ve had some good and some bad, but even the good that we had all turned later. You know, it started off good, but then it ended bad because then it started- the stories went from us, to you know, talking their side of the story, and their side made us look like a bunch of dummies that don’t know what they’re talking about. But, thank God that- that the Lord has exposed them and that just recently, and it has become more evident that everything we said in the beginning has been true all along. We got so many people sick here. So many people died during Covid. A lot of people have auto-immune diseases in this community. And I hope this- that we can add this- that value to you, your story and your project, and that’s what I got to say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that you are doing. God bless you for that. God bless you. DD: Well, thank you, Linda, for sharing your story and taking the time to do this. It’s a big part of the project is increasing the diversity of the voices in this conversation, so I'm really glad to be talking with you today. LR: Thank you. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robles, Linda (Shosie) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-16 Title A name given to the resource Linda Robles (Shosie), 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Linda Robles lives in in Tuscon, Arizona within the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. In this interview, Robles discusses how PFAS contamination touched her family and community, as well as her activism with the Mothers Safe Water Force and Environmental Justice Task Force. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97c9be594f2e3fe201456b655bf840ab.mp4 be4680c825a52562b0f5bee7830a57a8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc0a1b7f18ad31a49f1516310b4414c7.pdf 22a0dc906706e19a8464342dc77b3871 PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Interviewee: Laureen Hackett Date: June 16th, 2021 DD: I am Dani DeVasto and today, June 16th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Loreen Hackett. Hi Loreen. LH: Hi. DD: Loreen, can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live? LH: I am from and still live in Hoosick Falls, New York. DD: And, have you lived there your whole life? LH: Mostly, on and off I moved around a little bit but, I’ve been here, like, 45 years [chuckles] combined, so. DD: Alright, Loreen can you tell me a story please about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? LH: The PFAS awareness issue began here in basically it was presented to the village board in August of 2014 and then began the debacle of how the state did not [chuckles] help Hoosick falls for almost a year and a half, they didn’t even tell us to stop drinking the water until EPA stepped in end of November 2015 is when we finally got the do not drink order. Our levels here were extreme and blood testing that started in February with results coming in April, May, also revealed extraordinary levels, scary levels in our- in our blood in all our residents. And from then on, we started a Twitter page, PFOA Project New York, and we- it was in the beginning to, one bring awareness but two we were also clamoring for hearings on what went wrong with the department of health and all that. So, it was sort of to bring shame but also, you know, awareness- my grandchildren were in the top 3 [chuckles] tested for their levels and at the time they were age 4 and 6. I am in the top 50 and- once the do not drink order came about in, we’ll say December 2015, I started doing research because I have all these health problems that are just weird. They’re nothing that none of my family has and whatnot, so I’ve always been wondering what happened. Well, I got some answers once I started doing research on PFAS and health effects, and I have continued to do that for the last 5 years, and it gets more and more [chuckles] dire every day to the point now that I’m working with- a university, we’re collecting health studies as part of our site study that we were worded through CDC and so we- we had been sharing the monthly and we’re starting on their site, now we’re going to weekly because so many studies are now coming out fast and furious and none of its good news. So, I- as- at the beginning I thought my Twitter page was finite, I thought once we got our hearings and once we started getting some regulations I could lay off, but this issue has just, literally popped since. So I’ve continued it, my page has grown, and I almost feel obligated because so many communities are going through what we went through in the beginning. So, you know, I want my page to be 1 �reflective of awareness for a mom or dad that just found out that their water has too much PFOA in it and they can go to my page and it's easier reading stuff. I do post health studies I find if they feel like delving into those. But more, you know, general here’s a, you know, a video, here’s what this states doing here, you know so that you can understand- so that someone who- cause this is not easy stuff to [chuckles]- to understand by any means with so many acronyms, I mean that took 2 years to get them all down. Both: [laughter] LH: You know, and with more coming out now as we start digging into replacement chemicals, so I try to keep it as user friendly as possible, although I will post the health studies that I find. DD: Mhm LH: So, it’s been a job, it’s been a full-time job for me for the last 5 years and now I’m on, I don’t even know how many committees. I’m working with National Academy of Sciences as a community liaison, I was invited to speak at their East Coast panels they just had the last month or so, I am a co-chair of our community working group here because we have 3 federal super-fun sites, the 1st in the nation for PFOA, there’s 2 state sites and their looking at 5 more, so this tinyyeah, we got Chernobyl-d with PFAS. So, among that, I’m part of the national coalition for PFAS- oh gosh, I’m on our cap committee for our site study, [chuckles] so it just goes on andI’m always- and now, the last couple years I’ve been writing and helping draft legislation, whether it be in New York state or federally and we have some great partners inside our general brands office, which is the next bill I’m working on and New York state I work with a lot of the environmental orgs, been to D.C., I think 7 times, I’ve submitted testimony at 2 congressional hearings, [chuckles] I’ve been invited to Alaska to do seminar there, I’ve been to- I’ve beentravelled all over the place for conferences and it’s just- I dove in head first, head first because I just feel like I need- given this is our health, this is the health of my family, this is the long term health of my grandchildren, I’m one of those, I’m a nerd, I need the data, I need the info, I’ll read as much as I can of it even though it’s sickening and depressing and arduous at times I just keep doing it.[chuckles] So, but until the issue stops, until it’s banned or I don’t need it, you know, we don’t need to do it anymore. So, that’s one of the things I’m working really hard on and also, you know, I’m a- I’d like to think I’m the biggest advocate for children’s health, because if you look at Hoosick Falls, you know, a lot of us, good majority of us have been here our whole lives. We’re toast, there’s no helping us at this point. But if we can help our children to not end up like us and give ‘em half a chance, and it may already be too late given, you know, the levels that they were drinking. But man, that’s the goal, you know, if not for us, you know, older folks, then for the kids. They didn’t sign up to drink poison, you know, so whatever I can do to help just keep pushing that. DD: Mhm, so what happened in Hoosick Falls? Why is it the Chernobyl that you call it? LH: So, the history of Teflon, it really goes back to the history of Teflon. We had our first plant open here in 1956, so-. DD: Wow. 2 �LH: Yeah [laughs], it was called flea dodge and then, we- it just was a little industrial town. We had like 8, 10 factories running all at the same time at one point so, now all these factories have contaminated, are still contaminating, we still have 2 sites of Saint-Gobain that are still operating, and this is becoming a huge battle now too because, while New York state has declared them hazardous substances, and they did that back in 2016, which allowed them to get state super-fun site status then onto federal in July of ’17. But they’re still operating, and while PFOA and PFAS have been stewardshipped out, [unclear] the replacement chemicals, which we are finding, which aren’t regulated. So, we’re back to square one and we also know now through all the ongoing health research, that the replacement chemicals are just as bad, if not worse. So, this is going to be an ongoing- we just literally 2 weeks ago, 3 weeks ago had a PRAP from DEC, a Proposed Remediation Action Plan, for new water sources. So, we had a municipal gack filtration system on the municipal water and all the well owners got POET’s, which is Point-ofEntry Treatment systems on their wells. But we’d been looking and looking and looking for a new water source for 5 years. DD: Wow. LH: And so- yeah so, they’re- the proposal’s out now with comment due, I think at the end of the month and then we roll from there and however many years it’s gonna take to get those going and. But, in the meantime, we’re back to square one with the replacement chems and we had this argument with DEC while we’re still being contaminated [laughs]. Until they’re regulated, I can’t think of a better term than we’re shit outta luck. Which is, I suppose, you know where most industrial communities contaminated are too, until they’re- till more regulated we’re just gonna keep breathing them in. And the stacks from these plants is what contaminated us in the first place, all this stuff literally, the best explanation is, came outta the- it snowed on us for decades. Snow hit the soil, it came through the soil and hit all our water tables and aquifers and it’s still snowing. There is no regulation to make them put controls on the stacks to control the emissions, it’s not regulated. So, this is the next battle, or current battle, actually. DD: Wow. [laughs] LH: Yeah. DD: So, it sounds like you were able to get some movement, some help- some help from kind of local governments and things but not- not all the way. LH: So, our water’s filtered, ok so that- you know, alright so we’ll at least stop the exposure that way. But the exposure happened because of what’s coming out of the stacks hasn’t been remedied, other than the 2 being phased out by 2015, and EPA did an air stack test here last year which showed the replacement chems, the shorter chains, plus, I don’t remember if it was 15 or 20 long chain PFAS that all, you know, seems like every researcher will tell you are worse for the humans. There were C8’s through C18’s that they couldn’t even identifyDD: Wow. 3 �LH: -that we’re being exposed to this very minute 3 blocks from my house, and nothings been done about it. So, [laughs] you know you- you’d think with what we’ve learned even just the past 5 years, you know, you look at Rob Bilott’s story right, he’s been doing this for 20 plus, and I can’t imagine 15 more years of this and being no further along, that man must be a saint because [laughs] I have the patience of a fence post. Both: [laughter] LH: I’m thinking 5 years and I’m still [unclear] I’d be banging my head off the wall, I’d probably give up which is maybe what they’re hoping for, you know. DD: Mhm. LH: But I’d like to think that the last 5 years with community after community, you know with us and p’s and West Virginia and [cape fear] and, you know, now it’s all Michigan, it’s all headline news. So, I don’t think we’ll slide backwards, so that’s good news but we still need more regs and hopefully a non-essential use ban on all of them, the EU is doing it between 2023 and 2025. Maine just passed, a week ago, a non-essential use ban by 2030 in all products, so now there’s precedent so, bills are coming, I can tell you that, on non-essential use bans and we have the PFAS Action Act out now and Senator Jill Brand has done some wonderful bills with us. I did a Facebook Live event with her and Rob Bilott and Mark Ruffalo to announce the PFAS Accountability Act that she came her and introduced as well. So, they’ve been- Congressman Delgado has been great, he’s on the PFAS Task Force, he was just here 2 weeks ago, so they’ve been- we’ve been lucky to have some really attentive elected, you know, representatives. Congressman Tonko, he’s right on this and he’s right here in Albany next to us. Senator Schumer is well behind all the ‘get rid of PFAS’ stuff, so we’ve been lucky there, luckier than a lot of states. But, again, are we lucky that we’re still being contaminated? [laughs] You know, they’re coming down on DOD now, you know, it’s the head of the snake, and it’s a whole different animal. And that was from, you know, the firefighting foams and whatnot. So, once you stop using firefighting foams and clean up the contamination, then your exposures could- supposedly done, yeah? Well, ours isn’t. DD: Right. LH: So, it’s 2 different battles but the same dragon, right? DD: What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? LH: That they’re not doing enough quickly to stop exposure. Number 1, you have to stop the exposures any way possible, knowing how even the lowest doses, the lowest grains of salt in this bioaccumulate in children and cause health problems. There is no doubt now that they cause health problems, so stopping exposure has to be first and foremost and whether that’s in the air, water, food, cosmetics, wherever it’s coming from, especially contaminated communities. Cause we’ve been told by our health departments we have to lower our exposures, right so I have this huge level, in parts per trillion it’s 266. 4 �DD: Wow. LH: Yeah, so I have to go out of my way to not eat microwave popcorn, use Teflon- right cause I have to do- it’s gonna take me 20, 30 years to get that down to the [chuckles] EPA accepted level of 70 at the time, right? Well, if I can’t find it in the products, how am I supposed to lower my exposures? And they keep accumulating. So, will I die with this stuff in me? Likely, yes. Likely, yes. I’m gonna have just an extraordinary amount and I’ve never stepped foot in a factory. So, until we know where it’s coming from and stopping exposure, it’s just gonna keep building up and making people sick. So, that’s gotta be number 1. So, that would entail, right, you know, regulating all of them coming into any drinking water sources, all of them coming through the air because, you know, inhalation and dermal exposure and all that. Things in kid’s products, any- all of it it’s just- and there hasn’t been one found to be non-toxic out of the 92 hundred that are out there that we know of. Not one has come out and say, ‘this is absolutely non-toxic’. NTP and IEHS, they haven’t found that list yet. So, it’s frustrating to see congressional people saying ‘you don’t need to- we can do these 1 by 1’ yes, it’ll take 1,020 years. [laughs] okay, you know. But yeah, you have to stop the exposures, however it has to be done. Whether it’s rewriting all of Tasca, cause it’s ass-backwards. We have to start taking a precautionary principle, especially with this class of chemicals. They’re horrid. DD: Did you have any- you said that was number 1 concern that you had. LH: Number 1, we have to stop the exposures, yeah. And then, you know, then we have to look at clean up and that’s only once [chuckles] we can get the exposures stopped. Can’t clean it up if you’re still getting exposed. For here, for some place like Hoosick falls, we’re never gonna clean up our soil and stuff it just- you can’t dig down 30, 40 feet around every single house and bring us all new dirt, you know, so that won’t happen. And even though we have superfund sites, it only is site specific. We’ll only clean up around that site, not the homes 3 doors down from it, you know. So, you know, in stopping- I mean this stuff lasts forever, right? Its hundreds and hundreds of years in the soil, lord knows you can’t get it out of an entire aquifer, at least technology’s not there yet. Even trying to destroy it or, you know, burning it. We just had an issue nearby at Norlite, Cohoes and we found that they were burning it without telling anybody, the PFAS, A triple F foam. [laughs] So, that was a whole nightmare. The county executives put out a moratorium for a year to stop them from burning it, and then we passed a bill in New York State to ban burning it temporarily unless EPA comes up with some new-fangled method that would make it safe. So, this is- I often refer to PFAS as the mutant octopus, because once you think you’ve cut off one arm, 8 more grow out and it’s constant it’s always an evolving issue, it’s not a simple, ‘we can do this, this, this and have it stop’. Well, we did this and then 2 other issues came out of that and then once we did those, we got 4 more, so it’s a ever-evolving mutant octopus whose arms, they can never quite get wrapped around. So, it’s just regulation after regulation and hopefully they’ll smarten up and do them in a class and ban them, just ban them. DDT and PCB times 100, it’s that much worse. DD: Before we wrap up today, is there anything you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on or that you would like to go back to and say more about? 5 �LH: I think, you know, people don’t generally call their congress people for things. People are reluctant advocates, unless it’s an issue like this that hits close to home. I think the more people that yell, the better off we’ll be. The more pressure we put on them- elections matter. So, things that you might’ve taken for granted before, it’s time we step out of ourselves and start really yelling. And the more normal people- ‘normal’ [laughs]- ordinary citizens that say we’ve had enough of this, we’re sick of being- having all these toxic chemicals in our stuff, then that will change. And I think that those of us that’ve been advocating for this issue for the past 5 years have proven, we can make change. And we’re moms, we’re, you know, grandmas, we’re sisters, you know. We’re not anybody special, but it’s just a topic that hit us, and we proved that we can change, we can make change if we’re loud enough. So, I’d like to think that, as more people wake up to the nightmare of this, it’s in 49 states, everybody’s gonna be facing- if they look they’re finding it, so that’s the sad part, that everybody needs to just start yelling to make things happen, and it can be done. I think that’s it. And, you know, again we have to help our next generation, we have to help our children, we have to help our grandchildren. This just isn’t- and the more we learn about PFAS, suddenly the more you’re learning about other toxic chemicals that are coming to light, like phthalates and, you know, all these other things that are also harming endocrine systems and immune systems. You just can’t help but notice it when you’re reading health studies, these other ones pop up on the side, you know, and you’re like, ‘oh man BPA’ and you’re like, ‘ah geez we’re just- we’re screwed’ [laughs] and unless we make some changes, you know, you start with one issue and I still even have a hard time- this is like 30 hours a week on just a Twitter page reading health studies, I haven’t even delved into these other things yet but I know, you know, anything they have seen [unclear] immune system is horrific. But [chuckles] how did this happen, you know, how does this keep happening? It’s cause our laws are backwards. So, maybe, you know, that’s something everybody else can keep focusing on as we talk about climate change and effects of bad regulation or no regulation, this really needs to be looked at too, or we won’t be here for the climate to change, cause we’re all gonna have cancer and die, [laughter] you know. And I’ve had cancer, so I kind of speak from experience on that one. I just don’t want it for my grandkids. DD: Yeah, absolutely. Well Loreen, thank you for taking the time to share your story today. LH: Thank you for having me and thank you for this project. All necessary awareness is vital and dire now, so it’s great. DD: Thank you. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hackett, Loreen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-16 Title A name given to the resource Loreen Hackett, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Loreen Hacket lives in Hoosick Falls, New York. Loreen learned of the PFAS contamination in the area in 2014 and soon linked her own health problems to it. The PFAS in Hoosick Falls has been linked to Teflon, which opened its first factory in the area in 1956. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives